1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,276 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 2: Madeleine Peyroux is a jazz inspired singer songwriter who got 3 00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:26,316 Speaker 2: her start singing in street bands in Paris as a teenager. 4 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety six, Atlantic Records released Madeline's debut album, 5 00:00:30,356 --> 00:00:32,636 Speaker 2: where she covered tunes from the thirties and forties by 6 00:00:32,676 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 2: artists like Bessie Smith and Billie Holliday, and the later 7 00:00:35,916 --> 00:00:40,276 Speaker 2: she recorded songs by Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen. This year, 8 00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:43,356 Speaker 2: Madeleine Peyroux released Let's Walk, her first album of all 9 00:00:43,396 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 2: original songs, co written with her longtime touring guitar player 10 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 2: John Harrington. On today's episode, Madeleine and John play through 11 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 2: some songs for the new album, and Bruce Headlin talks 12 00:00:53,516 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 2: with them about their mutual creative process. Madeleine also remembers 13 00:00:57,556 --> 00:01:00,156 Speaker 2: her early days busking with a Bohemian ex pat named 14 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 2: Dan William Fitzgerald who became her musical mentor, and she 15 00:01:04,116 --> 00:01:07,436 Speaker 2: explains how doctor Cornell West became her guiding light during 16 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 2: a recent bout of personal despair. This is broken record 17 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:15,996 Speaker 2: liner notes for the Digital Age. 18 00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 3: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Hedlm's conversation with Madeline Peru 19 00:01:21,036 --> 00:01:25,676 Speaker 3: and John Harrington. You've got this new album, Let's Walk, 20 00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:29,676 Speaker 3: which is very exciting. It's been what six seven years 21 00:01:29,716 --> 00:01:33,316 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, since your last album. Now your last 22 00:01:33,356 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 3: album at the time, you said the question sort of 23 00:01:37,116 --> 00:01:40,916 Speaker 3: driving that album was where do you stand? What was 24 00:01:40,956 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 3: the question going into this album? What was animating you 25 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 3: going into the studio this time? 26 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 4: These songs are central to my experience in the middle 27 00:01:56,076 --> 00:02:04,236 Speaker 4: of COVID, facing issues, realities, or feeling the need to 28 00:02:04,276 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 4: be able to really get personal. And you know, I've 29 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:11,836 Speaker 4: always tried to say and I thought I sounded flippant 30 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:15,316 Speaker 4: in the past when I said everything is a little 31 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:20,756 Speaker 4: bit political, and some people would say, no, not everything. 32 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 4: We need to be able to get away from it, 33 00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:25,156 Speaker 4: and I'm like, yeah, of course we do. You know, 34 00:02:25,596 --> 00:02:30,436 Speaker 4: I was not ever civically engaged in my life to 35 00:02:30,476 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 4: a degree, So I suppose I was telling myself that 36 00:02:33,676 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 4: the act of you know, playing live music, the act 37 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 4: of sharing space, sharing vibrations in music is at least 38 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:47,036 Speaker 4: when I was a street musician it felt political in 39 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:51,076 Speaker 4: a way. But this time in twenty twenty that I 40 00:02:51,556 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 4: spent a lot of time forced to be alone with myself, 41 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:57,716 Speaker 4: and I would have gone mad if it hadn't been 42 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 4: for John Harrington responding to my email saying, Okay, that's 43 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 4: an interesting idea. How about this? And we started collaborating. 44 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 4: I think it was twenty twenty or maybe twenty twenty 45 00:03:09,716 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 4: one when we first started the throwing things back and forth. 46 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 3: How did you know each other before? Then? 47 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:22,556 Speaker 4: Well, we we've been playing music together. I pay him 48 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 4: to hang out with me. 49 00:03:24,356 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 5: I've been working for Maddie for at least fifteen years, 50 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:29,676 Speaker 5: we think maybe more like seventeen years. 51 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 3: Okay, well that's why I thought. I was a little 52 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,036 Speaker 3: surprised just in her band on the road when I 53 00:03:33,076 --> 00:03:35,996 Speaker 3: reached Oh okay, yeah, all right, so the relationship was 54 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:37,476 Speaker 3: a little different then, is what you are? 55 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,636 Speaker 5: Well, this is new for us, Yeah, to be songwriters, 56 00:03:41,196 --> 00:03:44,436 Speaker 5: especially writing all ten tunes on the record. That that 57 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:47,956 Speaker 5: was new for Okay, for me with Maddie, Yeah, no, 58 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:50,916 Speaker 5: I've for a while. So I was new for Mattie too. 59 00:03:51,076 --> 00:03:52,996 Speaker 5: She's she's had some you know, records where there have 60 00:03:53,036 --> 00:03:57,756 Speaker 5: been other authors, but never like an exclusive writing pair 61 00:03:57,836 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 5: for all of the tunes. 62 00:03:58,716 --> 00:03:59,756 Speaker 4: I don't think that's true. 63 00:04:00,076 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 3: Well, absolute and your producer, when he heard the song 64 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:03,676 Speaker 3: said no covers. 65 00:04:03,596 --> 00:04:08,316 Speaker 4: Yes he did. We had a lunch one meeting with 66 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 4: Elliott Shy and the three of us sat there and 67 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:16,436 Speaker 4: I had put together a list that that I thought, 68 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:19,436 Speaker 4: this will make sense, and we can revamp some older 69 00:04:19,476 --> 00:04:22,876 Speaker 4: stuff and let's then we'll get this record done sooner. 70 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 4: And Elliott he said, you know, I like the songs 71 00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:30,356 Speaker 4: that you two wrote together, and so just do that. 72 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:31,916 Speaker 4: Only songs by you. 73 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 5: He said. He said, no covers, and none of those 74 00:04:34,676 --> 00:04:36,396 Speaker 5: other songs, just the ones that you wrote with John. 75 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:39,036 Speaker 5: And if there aren't enough, write some more, you. 76 00:04:38,956 --> 00:04:39,876 Speaker 4: Know, Is that right? 77 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:40,956 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what he said. 78 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 4: I looked at John and I just went, what. 79 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:45,316 Speaker 5: What are we going to do? 80 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 3: Yeah? Are we going to do that? Well, you've you've 81 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:49,836 Speaker 3: been writing for a long time, but you kind of 82 00:04:49,836 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 3: made your bones as an interpreter of Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, 83 00:04:55,516 --> 00:04:58,676 Speaker 3: one of my favorites, Joe Henry. So what was it 84 00:04:58,756 --> 00:05:01,876 Speaker 3: like to say, Okay, I'm ripping off that band aid? 85 00:05:01,956 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 3: There's no. 86 00:05:04,396 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 4: I mean, I was excited to try it, but I 87 00:05:07,436 --> 00:05:10,876 Speaker 4: remember thinking, oh God, you know, what have we gotten 88 00:05:10,876 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 4: ourselves into? 89 00:05:11,956 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 5: It felt it felt daunting and overwhelming. I think at first, 90 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 5: looking back at it now, I mean it was. It 91 00:05:18,316 --> 00:05:19,396 Speaker 5: was a brilliant idea, I. 92 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:21,076 Speaker 4: Think, and it made this record. 93 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 5: The record coheres in spite of the sort of range 94 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,556 Speaker 5: of you know, sort of heavy to light, you know, 95 00:05:29,636 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 5: sort of content, you know, and and different moods. It's 96 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:37,916 Speaker 5: somehow coheres, which which I was concerned about, but glad 97 00:05:37,916 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 5: to find that that it does. 98 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 4: I don't think it coheres in the traditional way at all. 99 00:05:44,036 --> 00:05:47,756 Speaker 4: I don't think it really. I think it's really weird record. 100 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 4: I remember when we were recording it, sitting in the 101 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 4: booth going what are we doing? This stuff is crazy? 102 00:05:55,836 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 4: But but it is. It just wanted to let it be, 103 00:05:59,476 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 4: I feel for me, these songs just came to us 104 00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:05,996 Speaker 4: in varying degrees. We worked at chiseling away at them, 105 00:06:06,276 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 4: but it's all a gift, and the mandate for me 106 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:13,276 Speaker 4: was to make sure that it's something that I really 107 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:17,756 Speaker 4: care about. Even the Mosquito song, Yeah, it's something I 108 00:06:17,836 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 4: really care about. 109 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:20,316 Speaker 5: I was going to say that there are ways that 110 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:22,516 Speaker 5: it coheres from me, and that's that's the one I 111 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,236 Speaker 5: think that's the most critical. That these are the most 112 00:06:26,236 --> 00:06:29,076 Speaker 5: personal collection of songs I think that you've ever put 113 00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 5: on a single record together. You know, and that's that's 114 00:06:31,796 --> 00:06:34,036 Speaker 5: a big part of it. But I think sonically, thanks 115 00:06:34,036 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 5: to Elliott, it coheres and thanks to the musicians being 116 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:40,276 Speaker 5: all basically the same same team, guys who'd been on 117 00:06:40,276 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 5: the road with you and everybody who was in the 118 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 5: studio together. That's true background vocal section that was the 119 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:49,076 Speaker 5: same on the what four or five songs that have backgrounds. Yeah, 120 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 5: And so sonically I think it holds up that way too. 121 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:56,476 Speaker 5: And I think mostly because you weren't going to put 122 00:06:56,476 --> 00:06:58,836 Speaker 5: a lyric on, you know, a word on this record 123 00:06:58,876 --> 00:07:02,756 Speaker 5: that you hadn't vetted very thoroughly, and and that didn't 124 00:07:03,156 --> 00:07:07,116 Speaker 5: ring true to you personally, And that's that coheres to 125 00:07:07,196 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 5: me in spite of the range of styles, which which 126 00:07:09,636 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 5: I understand is that's. 127 00:07:11,596 --> 00:07:14,916 Speaker 4: What I'm talking about, you know, just like I don't 128 00:07:14,916 --> 00:07:18,436 Speaker 4: think that that a lot of producers would have let 129 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:20,756 Speaker 4: us get away with doing it like that. I think 130 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:24,076 Speaker 4: Elliott might be one of the few people that's truly 131 00:07:24,236 --> 00:07:28,076 Speaker 4: still very adventurous, beautiful thing. 132 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:30,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that about him. Do you think another 133 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:32,196 Speaker 3: producer might have said, Okay, but let's put on a 134 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 3: let's put on a letter co on, let's put on 135 00:07:36,116 --> 00:07:36,836 Speaker 3: let's put on something. 136 00:07:37,076 --> 00:07:39,956 Speaker 4: I think that they would have wanted to rearrange the 137 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:47,716 Speaker 4: songs to be more tame in their stylistic breadth and 138 00:07:48,036 --> 00:07:51,596 Speaker 4: and say, well, let's let's try to rain this into 139 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:55,196 Speaker 4: sort of a little bit dumb down to be you know, 140 00:07:55,276 --> 00:07:55,556 Speaker 4: in a. 141 00:07:55,516 --> 00:08:00,196 Speaker 5: Way, maybe the songs musically are more similar than they are, 142 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,276 Speaker 5: you know, far arranging. But you know, the other thing 143 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:06,436 Speaker 5: is another producer, if he were functioning as a real 144 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 5: producer and wanting the cloud and the control, I mean, 145 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 5: we should remind ourselves that you and I and Elliott 146 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:17,196 Speaker 5: were all sharing the producer role. And and for that reason, 147 00:08:17,236 --> 00:08:20,156 Speaker 5: I think Elliott was hanging back a little more than 148 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:23,876 Speaker 5: a sort of producer producer who was the only producer 149 00:08:23,916 --> 00:08:26,956 Speaker 5: on the record would do. And so it was a 150 00:08:26,996 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 5: collaborative effort that way as well. And I think you know, 151 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 5: he liked that and wanted it that way. And he's 152 00:08:32,196 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 5: the kind of reticent guy until it's important to speak up, 153 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 5: and then he speaks. And that's that's that's one of the. 154 00:08:38,556 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 4: Only things he said at that lunch was no covers, like. 155 00:08:42,316 --> 00:08:45,516 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it's he's he's got you know, strength, but 156 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:47,716 Speaker 5: but he waits a long time and He only speaks 157 00:08:47,796 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 5: up when it when he knows it's important. 158 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:51,996 Speaker 4: In fact, he's sitting right here and he hasn't said 159 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:52,316 Speaker 4: a word. 160 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:52,956 Speaker 6: It's not. 161 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 3: Well, we're waiting for that. He'll he'll finish the episode. 162 00:08:57,796 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 3: So how did you split up the producing duties? How 163 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:00,636 Speaker 3: did that work? 164 00:09:01,396 --> 00:09:02,876 Speaker 4: Well, John did most of the work. 165 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 5: Well thing is a funny term, and there's so many 166 00:09:08,636 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 5: there's so much overlap nowadays in the way most people 167 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 5: put a record together. There's overlap between the songwriting, the arranging, 168 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 5: the producing, the engineering, the recording. 169 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:18,636 Speaker 1: You know. 170 00:09:18,996 --> 00:09:24,756 Speaker 4: So, John, you had made demos before we met with 171 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 4: Elliott Shiner, and we had made demos too, and then 172 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 4: I had added my vocals to them. But I think 173 00:09:29,636 --> 00:09:33,556 Speaker 4: you pretty much were the one that made those demos. 174 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 4: You played everything we recorded. Anything that I recorded, I 175 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 4: came over to your place, and some. 176 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:43,236 Speaker 5: We didn't have time to really demo, but we but. 177 00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 4: Even Yeah, and then there was the one like the 178 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:51,436 Speaker 4: title track, which you made the whole song and made 179 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:55,316 Speaker 4: a demo so we could hear all these vocal parts, 180 00:09:55,396 --> 00:09:58,076 Speaker 4: all the harmonies, the type of bass treatment, the type 181 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:01,996 Speaker 4: of treatment, and the energy. And some of these songs 182 00:10:01,996 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 4: were I mean could have just been scripted. Obviously, we 183 00:10:06,036 --> 00:10:07,476 Speaker 4: didn't do that to the guy who. 184 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 5: They were pretty well thought before we got to this. 185 00:10:10,316 --> 00:10:12,956 Speaker 5: That's what we wanted to be that way. 186 00:10:13,356 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 3: The title track, A couple of tracks have it. They've 187 00:10:16,076 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 3: got like a New Orleans feel to that. 188 00:10:18,036 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 5: That one certainly does. 189 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you've got that kind of New Orleans organ 190 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 3: And a couple other songs. Was that deliberate? Was that? 191 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:25,836 Speaker 3: Did that come from something? 192 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:30,996 Speaker 4: Or I think Let's walk became a sort of the 193 00:10:31,116 --> 00:10:34,116 Speaker 4: drummer was playing that kind of beat. I don't know 194 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 4: if there was conceive of it that way really, but 195 00:10:37,276 --> 00:10:38,796 Speaker 4: I think I changed it a little bit. 196 00:10:38,996 --> 00:10:41,396 Speaker 5: We tried it like that in rehearsal, and we sort 197 00:10:41,396 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 5: of liked that it felt a little more spirited and 198 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:45,236 Speaker 5: not so sort of safe. 199 00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a march, and what is more appropriate 200 00:10:50,836 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 4: to feeling like you're dancing while you're walking, you know, 201 00:10:55,636 --> 00:11:02,036 Speaker 4: feeling music and walking that's American? What's more American? Then? Yeah? 202 00:11:02,036 --> 00:11:06,356 Speaker 4: And I think the New Orleans, the New Orleans. 203 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:07,796 Speaker 5: It's a natural part of all of these musicians, you know, 204 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 5: sort of repertoire, you know, in terms of styles, you know, 205 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:13,196 Speaker 5: because it's music. We always we've all loved so much 206 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 5: for so. 207 00:11:13,556 --> 00:11:16,476 Speaker 4: Long, you know, and it's at the heart of what 208 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:23,236 Speaker 4: do you think, because like to me, I have decided 209 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:29,316 Speaker 4: that American music is one of the main important things 210 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:32,876 Speaker 4: that we have to offer the world, and we don't 211 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:36,716 Speaker 4: even know what we have. We don't necessarily recognize it 212 00:11:36,836 --> 00:11:42,716 Speaker 4: very well. We don't understand stylistically how much crossover there is, 213 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 4: how much like how blurry that is, and yet how 214 00:11:46,996 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 4: also steeped really in different like cultures that are identities. 215 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 4: It is. At the same time, you don't think to 216 00:11:57,076 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 4: say I'm more country and I'm more bluegrass and I'm 217 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:03,116 Speaker 4: more People still do that, which is so odd because 218 00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 4: there is no those things were never separate. 219 00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 5: And musically well, you know, anytime money gets involved, you know, 220 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:14,716 Speaker 5: the categorizations help sell it. 221 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:18,756 Speaker 4: So that's why they're yeah, but I'm trying to I'm 222 00:12:18,796 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 4: trying to step even further back. You know. 223 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:24,636 Speaker 3: Now most people, of course think you're French right, you 224 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:27,836 Speaker 3: are American right, But you did live in France and 225 00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:31,756 Speaker 3: that was your kind of musical education. Do you think 226 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:36,356 Speaker 3: you have got that kind of outsider's view of American culture? 227 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:36,996 Speaker 3: Does that help? 228 00:12:37,876 --> 00:12:42,956 Speaker 4: It helps immensely There's several things about it. There's being 229 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 4: American in another country and realizing and listening to people 230 00:12:47,916 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 4: talk about del Vandos and you know, Kulan Zogong and 231 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 4: like who's cool and Zagong and who are Zabita's Who's 232 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:00,876 Speaker 4: what is that? I've never heard of that band before? 233 00:13:00,956 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 4: Oh the Beatles? Oh okay okay. So like just like 234 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 4: realizing what people talk about, how people talk about America 235 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 4: that were my age at the time, when I was twelve, 236 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:14,556 Speaker 4: thirteen or older, you know. And then secondly, what happened 237 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:17,876 Speaker 4: when I became a teenagers I met American ex patriots 238 00:13:18,236 --> 00:13:21,596 Speaker 4: who I would have never met. That's something that Dan 239 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 4: Fitzgerald said. He was from Kingston, New York, so upstate 240 00:13:26,236 --> 00:13:28,556 Speaker 4: New York, but he used to hang out in the 241 00:13:28,636 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 4: Bowery and I used to take the train over to 242 00:13:30,756 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 4: Canal Street over and Broadway. I would have been in 243 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:36,276 Speaker 4: New York City at the same time as him, but 244 00:13:36,356 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 4: I was a young, like maybe adolescent or teenage white 245 00:13:41,476 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 4: girl from South Brooklyn and he would have been a 246 00:13:46,356 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 4: middle aged black man from Kingston. We would have never 247 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 4: spoken to each other, even though we might have had 248 00:13:54,956 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 4: all of these cultural affinities. That were hard to find. 249 00:13:59,196 --> 00:14:03,196 Speaker 4: But because we saw each other in Paris, we became, 250 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:07,796 Speaker 4: you know, like family eventually, and of course it changed 251 00:14:07,876 --> 00:14:10,076 Speaker 4: my life to be there because of that. So it 252 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 4: was interesting. It's one thing to try. It's very hard 253 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:16,036 Speaker 4: to try to understand another culture. I mean, you know, 254 00:14:16,076 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 4: I lived in France for a long time. My mother 255 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:23,756 Speaker 4: has lived there ever since nineteen eighty seven. She's still 256 00:14:23,916 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 4: learning and we're still talking about attitudes and different types 257 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:33,236 Speaker 4: of like sayings that you might have to describe something. 258 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:36,236 Speaker 4: And like just today she said, there's a French saying. 259 00:14:36,956 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 4: Women talk about French men, they say, you know, they're 260 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:46,436 Speaker 4: only interested until they have killed the beast. That's the 261 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 4: literal translation of they catch you a woman is the 262 00:14:52,316 --> 00:14:54,836 Speaker 4: wildness has to be beaten out of you. You have 263 00:14:54,876 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 4: to be tamed, I think, is what it's kind of saying. 264 00:14:57,476 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 4: And then then they're interested and they'll move on to 265 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:01,156 Speaker 4: other things. 266 00:15:02,076 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 3: But I'll try I'll try that on my wife. 267 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 4: I don't suggest it, you see American. 268 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 3: I'm not an American. She is an American, and don't 269 00:15:11,956 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 3: I don't think I would survive that conversation. I think 270 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:17,036 Speaker 3: there would be some killing. But it wouldn't be her. 271 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 3: So but we should back up because we haven't talked 272 00:15:21,676 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 3: about Dan. There's a song about him on this record. 273 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 3: Can you just back up and explain how you met 274 00:15:27,356 --> 00:15:30,116 Speaker 3: him in Paris and who he is. 275 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 4: Daniel William Fitzgerald was born in nineteen thirty three in Kingston, 276 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 4: New York. Dan went to ministry school, he went to 277 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:45,156 Speaker 4: law school. He became disillusioned by both of those things. 278 00:15:45,396 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 4: Joined the army in the fifties and that's what brought 279 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:51,436 Speaker 4: him over to Europe. And then he just started going 280 00:15:51,476 --> 00:15:55,436 Speaker 4: back and forth and creating his life. And apparently in 281 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:58,116 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy eight he was hanging out with some friends, 282 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 4: some American friends he had met ex patriots in Paris 283 00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:04,036 Speaker 4: find each other right, and he said, I want to 284 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 4: go to JazzFest this year in New Orleans, and let's 285 00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:13,156 Speaker 4: start a band in order to go down there. Somehow 286 00:16:13,196 --> 00:16:15,676 Speaker 4: he knew all these old Bessie Smith and My Rainey songs, 287 00:16:15,716 --> 00:16:17,676 Speaker 4: he knew them by heart. And there's a Ma Rainey 288 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 4: song called The Loss and Wandering Blues. And he started 289 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 4: a band called the Lost Wandering Blues and Jazz Band. 290 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 4: He made a washtub, he turned it into a washtub base. 291 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:31,476 Speaker 4: He painted it and he started this band. They went 292 00:16:31,636 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 4: around from that time on. They went to Europe, and 293 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 4: if there was an American who was going to wander 294 00:16:39,036 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 4: around Paris and they bumped into him, they would bump 295 00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 4: into him on the street and they'd recognize him, and 296 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:47,316 Speaker 4: then he'd make friends and we'd stay at somebody's house 297 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 4: that night. We'd go play near a restaurant. The restaurant 298 00:16:49,956 --> 00:16:52,036 Speaker 4: would come out and say, come inside and have a meal. 299 00:16:52,156 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 4: You can hang out with us. And it was a 300 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:59,676 Speaker 4: lifestyle that he created. I come along to Paris and 301 00:17:00,156 --> 00:17:06,036 Speaker 4: about twenty years later, eighty nine ninety, I was about fifteen, 302 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 4: joined a different street band that was in the same scene. 303 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 3: At this point, you played ukulele or guitar or what 304 00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:17,596 Speaker 3: did you I had. 305 00:17:17,356 --> 00:17:21,876 Speaker 4: A guitar, but I couldn't play any of the songs 306 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:27,116 Speaker 4: that we were singing. You know. People said, oh, what 307 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:29,756 Speaker 4: songs do you want to sing? I said, well, first 308 00:17:29,756 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 4: I was passing the hat for somebody, and then I 309 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 4: heard these guys singing and I said, you know, I 310 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 4: could probably do better than them. So I volunteered myself 311 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 4: as singing and they were like, oh, she wants to 312 00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:41,836 Speaker 4: sing a song. Okay, sure, what do you know? And 313 00:17:41,996 --> 00:17:47,156 Speaker 4: so it was Georgia in Summertime and that's it. And 314 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:49,756 Speaker 4: then I thought, well, I know all these other songs, but. 315 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:52,436 Speaker 3: I your mother taught you songs? Is that? 316 00:17:52,836 --> 00:17:59,756 Speaker 4: Yeah? We used to play ukuleles together, and she sang 317 00:17:59,796 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 4: all the time. She sang every morning, she sang all 318 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:06,556 Speaker 4: over the house. And it was really the only time 319 00:18:06,596 --> 00:18:11,676 Speaker 4: that my father was not being kind of tyrant was 320 00:18:11,756 --> 00:18:13,436 Speaker 4: when we would sit down, the two of us and 321 00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 4: sing together. He would just stop and be quiet and 322 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 4: listen and say, oh, I guess I can't. I can't 323 00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 4: do anything better than that. But the rest of the 324 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 4: time he was telling us what to do. 325 00:18:24,756 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 3: But he was gone by the time you were in Paris. 326 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 4: Yeah, we moved to Paris. Right after they divorced. He 327 00:18:30,676 --> 00:18:33,676 Speaker 4: moved out. He was living somewhere in the city for 328 00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:36,276 Speaker 4: the rest of his life, somewhere in New York. Eventually 329 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:41,076 Speaker 4: he moved out to Corona, Queens in the end, Yeah, what. 330 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 3: Made you want to start busting? 331 00:18:43,476 --> 00:18:46,876 Speaker 4: The first thing that I remember was that I was 332 00:18:47,876 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 4: because I was in France and I couldn't speak the language, 333 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 4: and I wanted to make friends. I would go around 334 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 4: I would wander around the neighborhood with my guitar and 335 00:18:55,076 --> 00:18:57,756 Speaker 4: just sit around and play while other people were talking 336 00:18:57,796 --> 00:19:01,676 Speaker 4: to each other kids. And one day somebody threw some 337 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 4: money in the case and I remember going, wait, what 338 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:09,036 Speaker 4: just happened here? So that was the revelation for me. 339 00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 4: It was like, oh, hey, you think I could actually 340 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:13,956 Speaker 4: make money doing this? This would be amazing. And then 341 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:17,396 Speaker 4: I did wander into Paris, I saw street I somehow 342 00:19:17,436 --> 00:19:20,356 Speaker 4: we saw street musicians at one point, and I remember thinking, 343 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 4: I've got to go back here to find these people, 344 00:19:24,116 --> 00:19:26,996 Speaker 4: and I did. I did a like a trek through 345 00:19:27,036 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 4: the city trying to find them, and that's when I 346 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:34,676 Speaker 4: saw Danny's band. And I didn't speak to him that day, 347 00:19:35,436 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 4: but it was absolutely memorable because they all had hats on, 348 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,716 Speaker 4: they had microphones and amps, and it was so weird. 349 00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:46,836 Speaker 4: It was a weird type of hybrid of American music, 350 00:19:46,956 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 4: like it bring kind of full circle to what we 351 00:19:48,676 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 4: were talking about, because he had this sort of Black 352 00:19:52,996 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 4: American musical culture that I had never heard. I had 353 00:19:57,236 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 4: heard some early blues from my parents' records, but it 354 00:20:00,876 --> 00:20:05,396 Speaker 4: was mostly like stuff that had gone into universities, like 355 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:10,196 Speaker 4: Robert Johnson, Like there was a certain group of black 356 00:20:10,316 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 4: artists that were part of the folk movement, but then 357 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:21,276 Speaker 4: there were all these other blues jazz artists that I 358 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 4: don't know, Like that wasn't my experience. I didn't hear 359 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,556 Speaker 4: some of that stuff. I knew fat Swaller, I'd heard 360 00:20:27,556 --> 00:20:31,116 Speaker 4: a lot of Fat Swaller, a lot of some Louis Armstrong. 361 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:36,996 Speaker 4: So but Danny was playing early early stuff, early jazz 362 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 4: almost like rag time stuff, or if you listen to 363 00:20:42,276 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 4: Bessie Smith records, it's right in the middle. It's after ragtime, 364 00:20:48,476 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 4: because I think ragtime, I think of ragtime is like 365 00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 4: Scott Joplin, So that's eighteen nineties basically. And then if 366 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:58,916 Speaker 4: you think of swing, I think of the nineteen thirties, 367 00:20:58,916 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 4: it's post depression. But then like there's this period in 368 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:07,116 Speaker 4: the through the twenties where even the rhythm is like 369 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 4: not absolutely sort of the approach to how the shuffle 370 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 4: feels is sort of like still in between those two spaces. 371 00:21:16,636 --> 00:21:20,036 Speaker 4: It's not completely laid back yet, but you kind of 372 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:25,076 Speaker 4: feel it's starting to lay back. But Billie Holliday's first recording, 373 00:21:25,156 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 4: when she was sixteen, was in the thirties and you 374 00:21:30,516 --> 00:21:33,876 Speaker 4: can hear that the bands, the dance bands are now 375 00:21:33,956 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 4: starting to do that thing where I suppose the Great 376 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:43,316 Speaker 4: Migration is influencing that too, right, because you have country 377 00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:46,556 Speaker 4: blues becoming urbanized. And if you listen to Bessie Smith, 378 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 4: like Ma Rainy is really country, you don't have a 379 00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 4: lot of harmonic changes. Really is sort of the in 380 00:21:56,436 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 4: a folky world. It's a folk thing. But with Bessie 381 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:05,036 Speaker 4: you've got piano players and guitar players and they're playing 382 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 4: all these passing chords and there's like diminished chords, and 383 00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 4: we're like little changes in tempo and these verses that 384 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:15,276 Speaker 4: never repeat or these sections that never repeat that are 385 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 4: quite complicated. And I believe that that's more of like 386 00:22:19,636 --> 00:22:23,476 Speaker 4: because of the urban influence where they go to the 387 00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:25,556 Speaker 4: cities and you're hearing a lot of a lot more 388 00:22:25,596 --> 00:22:26,676 Speaker 4: different kinds of music. 389 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 3: What grabbed you about that music. 390 00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:35,516 Speaker 4: Well, it's harmonically accessible to me, Like it's a pop, 391 00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:41,916 Speaker 4: you know, dance type of music with some more complexity 392 00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 4: to it, but not to the point where it's ethereal 393 00:22:44,716 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 4: and atonal. Yet it hasn't really gone over crossed over. 394 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 4: So for me to learn music, to learn chords because 395 00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 4: I was so fascinated by hearing like, you know, some 396 00:22:57,356 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 4: cool song like across the Universe from the Beatles. Like 397 00:23:00,596 --> 00:23:04,316 Speaker 4: I remember thinking like, how are you supposed to play 398 00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 4: that on a ukulele? This is really hard. That was 399 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:11,436 Speaker 4: my biggest problem, was like, well, where's the harmony coming from? 400 00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 4: I just don't get it. 401 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 3: Well, you know the key there is you only play 402 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 3: the George Harrison songs because he used to write onles. 403 00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:21,356 Speaker 4: Oh really yeah, definitely, Here Comes the Sun. It's like 404 00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 4: one of the first ones that I was like, yes. 405 00:23:23,756 --> 00:23:26,036 Speaker 3: Yeah or something. I think he yeah, he used to. 406 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,876 Speaker 4: He used to use a oh that's beautiful and then 407 00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 4: he would just play sound like that. 408 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 3: He would just play with the kpo right when he 409 00:23:32,276 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 3: played it in the guitar, so it would be in 410 00:23:33,716 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 3: the same Yeah. 411 00:23:34,476 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 4: I mean I'm not that I wasn't that good a 412 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 4: ukulele player either. 413 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 3: Let's get a ukulele out here right now? 414 00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:41,356 Speaker 4: Not no, no, And I. 415 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:43,236 Speaker 3: Heard you like when you start a guitar. You liked 416 00:23:43,236 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 3: Freddy Green. 417 00:23:44,796 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 4: Well right, because he was in the small group with 418 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 4: Billie Holliday and those incredible recordings that they made with 419 00:23:53,156 --> 00:24:00,196 Speaker 4: Teddy Wilson Lester Young, Freddy Green, Philly Joe Jones maybe 420 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:04,516 Speaker 4: on drums and some of those those recordings. So I 421 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 4: think they made like one hundred records, you know, during 422 00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:12,796 Speaker 4: those two years, maybe two or three years, thirty nine forty. 423 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 4: It was all wartime too. I wonder if it wasn't 424 00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:20,516 Speaker 4: like FDR grants that made that happen. Those records are 425 00:24:20,716 --> 00:24:24,276 Speaker 4: absolutely like, they're just so good. 426 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:27,156 Speaker 2: We have to take a quick break and then we'll 427 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:29,996 Speaker 2: be back with more from Madeline Peru and John Harrington. 428 00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:37,556 Speaker 2: We're back with more from Madeline Peru and John Harrington. 429 00:24:38,276 --> 00:24:40,636 Speaker 2: So tell me then, how how did you and Dan 430 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 2: then connect? 431 00:24:42,116 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 4: You heard him, Well, he taught me a lot of 432 00:24:44,796 --> 00:24:50,316 Speaker 4: this music. I heard him, and then I couldn't find 433 00:24:50,356 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 4: him again because apparently he had a car and he 434 00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:55,396 Speaker 4: would leave town. I thought that was the most amazing 435 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:58,356 Speaker 4: thing ever, that the big Mercedes that would like just 436 00:24:58,716 --> 00:25:02,076 Speaker 4: barely fit in the walking street where we were all 437 00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 4: hanging out in those days. So whenever he came to town, 438 00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:06,436 Speaker 4: you knew it because he was parked in front of 439 00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:09,556 Speaker 4: the cafe. But I didn't see him for a couple 440 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:13,716 Speaker 4: of months. I joined another band, I sang with them. 441 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:17,916 Speaker 4: We actually got a job singing in a club, and 442 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:22,156 Speaker 4: apparently I was very badly behaved, and I drank because 443 00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:24,796 Speaker 4: I only had two songs to sing per set, so 444 00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:27,796 Speaker 4: I just sat and drank alcohol the rest of the time, 445 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 4: and by the end of the night they said I 446 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 4: wasn't behaving, so I can only imagine was just basically 447 00:25:36,036 --> 00:25:40,356 Speaker 4: everything looked bad at the point at that age, I 448 00:25:40,396 --> 00:25:43,116 Speaker 4: think it was still only fifteen or something, and I 449 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 4: had dropped, and I basically the high school told me, 450 00:25:46,076 --> 00:25:49,996 Speaker 4: you know, if you ever don't show up anymore, that's it. 451 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:53,156 Speaker 4: You're out. So I took the gig, and I didn't 452 00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:54,916 Speaker 4: show up, and I just assumed I was out, and 453 00:25:54,916 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 4: then I was out, and then I ran out of 454 00:25:57,796 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 4: money from that gig. And then there was a rainy day. 455 00:26:00,756 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 4: Of course, if you're a street musician, you watch in 456 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:04,396 Speaker 4: the weather all the time, and it was a rainy 457 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 4: day and there was no one anywhere, and I had like, 458 00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:10,476 Speaker 4: you know, seven francs or something, which was enough for 459 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:12,996 Speaker 4: me to buy half a beer. Whatever it was I had. 460 00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:15,996 Speaker 4: I literally decided, at ten in the morning, I'm going 461 00:26:16,036 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 4: to buy a drink with this. So I sat at 462 00:26:18,996 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 4: this bar with this beer and looked out the window 463 00:26:21,156 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 4: and I said, what have I done to myself? And 464 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:27,676 Speaker 4: at that moment I saw Danny across the street, standing 465 00:26:27,756 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 4: under a covered walking passageway, just standing there. I'm just like, 466 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:38,836 Speaker 4: what in the world. So I was just ran over 467 00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:41,196 Speaker 4: to him. I said, Danny, you said I could sing 468 00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:46,756 Speaker 4: in your band. He said, okay, go ahead, you have 469 00:26:46,836 --> 00:26:50,396 Speaker 4: to audition first. I said, sure, no problem, He said 470 00:26:50,396 --> 00:26:54,676 Speaker 4: go ahead. And then I said, I what here now? 471 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:57,156 Speaker 4: And of course I couldn't play any of these songs 472 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:01,396 Speaker 4: on guitar, so I snapped my fingers and I sang jeepers, 473 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:04,836 Speaker 4: creepers right in his face, and he stared me down 474 00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:08,396 Speaker 4: the entire time, and it was so embarrassing, and I 475 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 4: just just nervous, you know. I thought, Oh, this is it, 476 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 4: you know. And then he was so nice. He just 477 00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 4: turned to be He went from like making me dread 478 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:25,316 Speaker 4: every minute to just being completely warm and said, okay, 479 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 4: you're in the band, but you have to audition for 480 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 4: the other guy as well. He's our musical director and 481 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 4: he's in Holland and we're going to go there tomorrow. 482 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 4: So come back tomorrow and we'll go to Holland. We're 483 00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 4: going to go to Holland together, and then I didn't 484 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 4: have anywhere to stay that night, so I was really, 485 00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 4: he was your mother, not My mother had told me 486 00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:58,716 Speaker 4: if I didn't go to school that I couldn't stay 487 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,876 Speaker 4: at home anymore. But I'd dropped out of school several 488 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,676 Speaker 4: times by this point, right, so we had gotten to 489 00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:06,196 Speaker 4: a point where she was just like, well, you're not 490 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:10,516 Speaker 4: allowed to do that anymore. You can't be like this anymore. 491 00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 4: And she was right. But I got Danny to let 492 00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 4: me join the band, and I still didn't have any 493 00:28:20,236 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 4: anywhere to stay that night, and I didn't tell him, 494 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 4: and I didn't know him. I didn't know if he 495 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 4: would have helped me out. But I had this other friend. 496 00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:30,316 Speaker 4: I went to the guy and he said, yeah, okay, 497 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:32,796 Speaker 4: you can sleep on my fortnight if you're joining Janny's band. 498 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 4: It's cool. It's gonna be great because he knew Danny. 499 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:37,996 Speaker 4: But then the next day, Danny just sat around drinking 500 00:28:38,036 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 4: coffees all day long, and I sat outside the cafe 501 00:28:40,876 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 4: with my guitar, just wondering, like, I hope we're leved. 502 00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 4: We didn't leave. 503 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 7: I had to go back to my friend and he 504 00:28:47,636 --> 00:28:49,236 Speaker 7: opened the door and said, what the fuck are you 505 00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:49,836 Speaker 7: doing back here? 506 00:28:49,876 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 4: Oh, Danny, you know, okay, you can spend another night here. 507 00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 4: And it's happened three or four times. Guy cussed at me. 508 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 6: What the fuck went? 509 00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 4: Is Danny gonna leave? Then we did leave. I got 510 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:07,356 Speaker 4: and I joined the band and I started learning this music. 511 00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 4: The musical direct or, quote unquote was a wonderful guitar 512 00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:17,796 Speaker 4: player named Chris Monin, who was actually also a teenager himself. 513 00:29:17,876 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 4: He was studying guitar at the Conservatory, the Jazz Conservatory 514 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:23,836 Speaker 4: in southern Holland. 515 00:29:24,556 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 3: So how long did you play with with Danny's band? 516 00:29:27,916 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 4: I played with Danny's I tried to leave his band 517 00:29:30,716 --> 00:29:34,156 Speaker 4: a couple of times, and then I ended up coming back. 518 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:38,276 Speaker 4: But I mean, I think I was about seventeen, Yeah, 519 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:41,596 Speaker 4: seventeen when when we got to the end of this, 520 00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 4: there was a documentary. This film student was making a 521 00:29:45,636 --> 00:29:47,716 Speaker 4: documentary about us, and he said, come on, you guys 522 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:52,156 Speaker 4: need to play in Harlem. And I remember thinking, why 523 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:56,956 Speaker 4: on earth would we go and play this play in Harlem? 524 00:29:58,276 --> 00:30:01,756 Speaker 4: And Danny took it as a challenge, I think, and 525 00:30:01,836 --> 00:30:05,196 Speaker 4: so we did and people threw bottles at us. They 526 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 4: said you better not you know, set up your amps 527 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 4: in front of my house. What do you crazy? Which 528 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:15,876 Speaker 4: you know, that was crazy, It was bad idea. But 529 00:30:15,956 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 4: we ended up finding a place that we could set 530 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:21,476 Speaker 4: up and it was out in the court building there 531 00:30:21,476 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 4: on one twenty fifth. Anyway, when the documentary was over, 532 00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 4: the people that had funded this documentary were suddenly had 533 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:34,076 Speaker 4: no money to pay us anything at all, and so 534 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:37,516 Speaker 4: everybody had to fall back on their own. Drathers and 535 00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:39,516 Speaker 4: I had nothing to fall back on. So I left 536 00:30:39,556 --> 00:30:41,836 Speaker 4: the band at that moment because I had absolutely nothing, 537 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:46,356 Speaker 4: and I hitchhiked from wherever we were in Denmark back 538 00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:49,236 Speaker 4: to Paris. So I played in the subway after that 539 00:30:49,636 --> 00:30:52,076 Speaker 4: and tried to do like with my guitar, tried to 540 00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 4: use some of the stuff I learned being in the band, 541 00:30:54,596 --> 00:30:59,396 Speaker 4: and didn't do too well, but I learned some a 542 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:04,556 Speaker 4: little bit of discipline. And then Danny would see me. 543 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:07,196 Speaker 4: I would turn around. This is how Danny went. He 544 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 4: was so such an amazing because I'd be playing in 545 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 4: this subway and everything, and I'd feel somebody staring at me, 546 00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:16,316 Speaker 4: and I would look and way at the back of 547 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:19,076 Speaker 4: the car. He'd be over over in the corner and 548 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 4: he had been following me, just listening to me, trying 549 00:31:22,036 --> 00:31:24,316 Speaker 4: to see what I was doing, and I just remember, 550 00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 4: what are you doing? But it was so sweet. He 551 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:33,356 Speaker 4: actually just we were family, and that's just the way 552 00:31:33,396 --> 00:31:36,116 Speaker 4: it was always going to be, you know, with his 553 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:41,276 Speaker 4: potato salads, that he'd make these incredibly huge tubs of 554 00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 4: food for parties, and he would throw parties on his boat. 555 00:31:44,756 --> 00:31:47,276 Speaker 4: And he had kept let me live on his boat 556 00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:48,796 Speaker 4: for a while when I was in the band too. 557 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:50,236 Speaker 4: He had a boat outside of the seine. 558 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 3: Were you writing at this point or are you just? 559 00:31:53,636 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 3: Were you just performing? 560 00:31:55,476 --> 00:32:00,836 Speaker 4: I wanted to write songs and Danny told me I 561 00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 4: shouldn't do that. You know, I certainly didn't know what 562 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:09,196 Speaker 4: I was doing. Basically, my approach to songwriting was like 563 00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:11,596 Speaker 4: everything else at that time. It was like close your 564 00:32:11,596 --> 00:32:14,796 Speaker 4: eyes and wish, make a wish and see what happens. 565 00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:19,996 Speaker 4: And I really don't think I could ever figure out 566 00:32:20,036 --> 00:32:25,916 Speaker 4: writing until this record. I feel like I had a 567 00:32:25,956 --> 00:32:31,956 Speaker 4: breakthrough because for the first time I decided before sitting 568 00:32:32,036 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 4: down to finish a project or to write it and 569 00:32:34,916 --> 00:32:37,476 Speaker 4: say this is what I'm going to stand by, this 570 00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 4: is what I believe is the song I want I 571 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:44,516 Speaker 4: decided I need to find out what's already there that's 572 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 4: not being said, and just try and say it. And 573 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,156 Speaker 4: if I'm not saying it, if it's not clear, then 574 00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:50,236 Speaker 4: the job's not finished. 575 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 3: You've written lots of songs in the past. How is 576 00:32:52,996 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 3: that different? 577 00:32:55,036 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 4: I suppose in the past, I've always felt like I 578 00:32:57,396 --> 00:33:00,196 Speaker 4: was looking to discover what the song was, that it 579 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:04,076 Speaker 4: was already that it was somebody else's song. Now it's mine, 580 00:33:05,236 --> 00:33:09,516 Speaker 4: even though it was obviously it was still me doing it. 581 00:33:09,556 --> 00:33:13,276 Speaker 4: But I think that COVID, all of the things that 582 00:33:13,356 --> 00:33:21,756 Speaker 4: matter in the world became so pronounced. And I'm gonna 583 00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:28,476 Speaker 4: borrow Carnel West's furbiage on this. It's the catastrophe that 584 00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:32,516 Speaker 4: we had to face. Just how to how to deal 585 00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 4: with catastrophe. Now, I didn't suffer any catastrophe during COVID, 586 00:33:37,956 --> 00:33:41,476 Speaker 4: but I just as most of my life I've witnessed it. 587 00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:44,396 Speaker 3: I wouldn't much do a song. Now, what do you want? 588 00:33:44,636 --> 00:33:45,396 Speaker 4: Let's play a song. 589 00:33:46,356 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 5: You're gonna play Fine True Love. Yeah, this is the 590 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:53,716 Speaker 5: opening track on the record. Okay, you got it? 591 00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:54,116 Speaker 3: Just me. 592 00:34:00,516 --> 00:34:02,836 Speaker 6: Oh, let's go down to the. 593 00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:06,116 Speaker 4: Vayume Fine True Love. 594 00:34:08,116 --> 00:34:12,196 Speaker 8: Listen to the blue booze, the Gospel. 595 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:18,476 Speaker 9: Of Jeesus, feel the summer sunshine in the sun. 596 00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:27,236 Speaker 8: Breazees, hear the little baby bees whimper and cry, make 597 00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:32,476 Speaker 8: a little promise, Learn how to die all. 598 00:34:32,596 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 6: Let's go on to the levee. 599 00:34:36,076 --> 00:34:42,756 Speaker 10: Find true love. Listen to the brass bands, do. 600 00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:49,516 Speaker 8: The second line, pick a little guitar, spill a little 601 00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 8: wine here the little. 602 00:34:52,836 --> 00:35:01,916 Speaker 9: Babies whimper and cry, Make a little promise, learn how 603 00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:02,556 Speaker 9: to die. 604 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:08,876 Speaker 4: All have proms to be open. 605 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:13,636 Speaker 8: To feel the joy and pain. 606 00:35:16,756 --> 00:35:24,036 Speaker 6: The only way to make a life is to face. 607 00:35:28,756 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 4: Try again. 608 00:35:31,756 --> 00:35:37,236 Speaker 10: So let's go on to the hilltop to find true love. 609 00:35:39,516 --> 00:35:44,516 Speaker 10: Listen to the seasons from above the tree line. 610 00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:51,516 Speaker 9: Pick a little fresh con spell little moon shine. 611 00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:58,876 Speaker 10: Hear the little babe bae whimper and cry, Make a 612 00:35:58,956 --> 00:35:59,996 Speaker 10: little promise. 613 00:36:01,396 --> 00:36:02,716 Speaker 4: Learn how to die. 614 00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:24,756 Speaker 7: Oh yes, let's go on to the shoreline and find 615 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:25,596 Speaker 7: too low. 616 00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:34,396 Speaker 9: Listen to the ocean thunder in the sky. Feel a 617 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:38,316 Speaker 9: little empty and run a little. 618 00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:43,596 Speaker 4: Dry, give a little baby bees. 619 00:36:43,276 --> 00:36:50,996 Speaker 10: Whimp and cry, make a little promise, Learn how to die. 620 00:36:51,916 --> 00:36:54,356 Speaker 8: All a promise. 621 00:36:55,196 --> 00:37:05,876 Speaker 6: To be all open, to feed the jaw pain, be all. 622 00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:10,156 Speaker 4: Only way to me good life. 623 00:37:11,076 --> 00:37:18,316 Speaker 8: It's too face. Try again. 624 00:37:20,956 --> 00:37:26,116 Speaker 4: Let's go down to the bayou, find true love. 625 00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 10: Listen to the blues, the Gospel of Cheesees. 626 00:37:34,356 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 8: Feel the summer sunshine and the sudden. 627 00:37:38,436 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 9: Breathe, see the little babies whimper and cry. 628 00:37:47,196 --> 00:37:54,036 Speaker 10: Make a little promise, Make a little promise, make a 629 00:37:54,116 --> 00:38:04,676 Speaker 10: little promise. Learn how to die. 630 00:38:04,636 --> 00:38:10,116 Speaker 3: Beautiful. A little feedback there right at the end. So 631 00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:12,916 Speaker 3: tell me about writing that song. Do you remember how 632 00:38:12,956 --> 00:38:13,476 Speaker 3: it started? 633 00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:19,116 Speaker 4: Uh? Yeah, John, and I remember very clearly because we 634 00:38:19,196 --> 00:38:23,596 Speaker 4: worked hard. I think the title and those three words 635 00:38:23,636 --> 00:38:26,956 Speaker 4: find true love were the hardest part of the whole song, 636 00:38:27,076 --> 00:38:29,996 Speaker 4: which now seems like the most obvious choice. But at 637 00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:33,036 Speaker 4: the time I was using the phrase eat, pray love 638 00:38:33,836 --> 00:38:35,396 Speaker 4: from the book, Right. 639 00:38:35,756 --> 00:38:37,116 Speaker 3: Did you think that was going to be the song 640 00:38:37,196 --> 00:38:38,876 Speaker 3: or were you like, I'll just fix that later. 641 00:38:39,676 --> 00:38:41,196 Speaker 5: It was the whole song. I mean, you wrote the 642 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:44,076 Speaker 5: whole song using with that, with that as the title. 643 00:38:44,636 --> 00:38:46,996 Speaker 5: But we threw lyrics back and forth quite a lot 644 00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:51,276 Speaker 5: on that, and at some point we chucked it, you know, 645 00:38:51,436 --> 00:38:52,956 Speaker 5: because it wasn't working with. 646 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:57,476 Speaker 4: Yeah, it wasn't necessarily the right thing. 647 00:38:57,436 --> 00:38:59,116 Speaker 5: I know, but it was the springboard for you. 648 00:38:59,556 --> 00:39:04,836 Speaker 4: Yeah, the idea of eat pray Love is very powerful 649 00:39:05,036 --> 00:39:11,396 Speaker 4: because there are three distinct sounds, three distinct one syllable 650 00:39:11,436 --> 00:39:17,156 Speaker 4: words that are actions and nouns and worlds unto themselves. 651 00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:21,236 Speaker 4: It's great writing, and I read the book and everything, 652 00:39:21,956 --> 00:39:26,316 Speaker 4: but I wanted the meaning of the song to have 653 00:39:26,436 --> 00:39:29,396 Speaker 4: its own life, and so I think on some level 654 00:39:29,436 --> 00:39:33,196 Speaker 4: we knew that it probably wasn't going to survive scrutiny. 655 00:39:33,476 --> 00:39:35,076 Speaker 4: It was sort of can you do better than that? 656 00:39:35,156 --> 00:39:36,476 Speaker 4: And then I was like, well, I'm not as good 657 00:39:36,476 --> 00:39:38,556 Speaker 4: as you know, Elizabeth Gilbert on this, so. 658 00:39:38,676 --> 00:39:41,356 Speaker 5: I don't know what to say no, But sometimes you 659 00:39:41,396 --> 00:39:44,396 Speaker 5: need that to just to continue working on it. Just 660 00:39:44,476 --> 00:39:47,196 Speaker 5: having any words, you know, the blank sheet of paper 661 00:39:47,236 --> 00:39:50,556 Speaker 5: is the terrifying thing. When you have anything down, then 662 00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:55,236 Speaker 5: it's editable, you know. And so it wasn't a big 663 00:39:55,316 --> 00:39:57,076 Speaker 5: jump to go from Eat Prey Love. 664 00:39:57,676 --> 00:39:59,716 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was my It was the banks. 665 00:40:00,636 --> 00:40:01,276 Speaker 1: It helps. 666 00:40:01,756 --> 00:40:05,076 Speaker 3: One of the obvious word choices to jump out in 667 00:40:05,116 --> 00:40:08,436 Speaker 3: that song is learn how to die. Just about anybody 668 00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:10,436 Speaker 3: else would say learn how to fly, learn how to 669 00:40:10,476 --> 00:40:12,636 Speaker 3: do all these other things because it's a very joyful song. 670 00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:14,396 Speaker 3: What brought that on? 671 00:40:15,156 --> 00:40:17,756 Speaker 4: Well for me? That's a direct quote from Cornell West 672 00:40:17,796 --> 00:40:19,956 Speaker 4: and I'd been listening to Cornell West quite a bit. 673 00:40:20,036 --> 00:40:20,196 Speaker 1: Now. 674 00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:23,036 Speaker 4: I don't know who Cornell West might be quoting when 675 00:40:23,076 --> 00:40:24,836 Speaker 4: he says, in order to learn how to love, you 676 00:40:24,916 --> 00:40:28,276 Speaker 4: have to learn how to die, but he says it 677 00:40:28,396 --> 00:40:31,156 Speaker 4: quite a bit in a lot of different contexts, some 678 00:40:31,276 --> 00:40:33,716 Speaker 4: of his lectures that he's done and some of his 679 00:40:33,836 --> 00:40:36,356 Speaker 4: speaking engagements that he's done. But whatever I could find 680 00:40:36,396 --> 00:40:41,276 Speaker 4: mostly on YouTube during that time when for a good 681 00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:46,556 Speaker 4: couple of years after George Floyd, but even yeah, even 682 00:40:46,636 --> 00:40:48,676 Speaker 4: before that, you know, I was just following him because 683 00:40:48,676 --> 00:40:50,836 Speaker 4: he had a voice. It was a voice of reason 684 00:40:50,876 --> 00:40:54,196 Speaker 4: on television, you know, if you needed somebody, if you 685 00:40:54,356 --> 00:40:58,156 Speaker 4: wanted to hear somebody on television on the news speak 686 00:40:58,196 --> 00:41:02,796 Speaker 4: to you. It was slim Pickens for me, like I 687 00:41:03,796 --> 00:41:08,436 Speaker 4: felt a direct mirroring of my childhood with my alcoholic 688 00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:12,916 Speaker 4: father and the violent, tyrant tyranny in that world, and 689 00:41:12,996 --> 00:41:17,556 Speaker 4: the escape or rather the survival of that environment as 690 00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:20,996 Speaker 4: a child at playing music with my mother was like 691 00:41:21,036 --> 00:41:24,996 Speaker 4: a mirror image for me in twenty twenty of seeing 692 00:41:25,836 --> 00:41:34,756 Speaker 4: police brutality and the search for solace consolation, a path 693 00:41:35,276 --> 00:41:38,876 Speaker 4: forward using the tools that I still to day are 694 00:41:38,916 --> 00:41:44,476 Speaker 4: the only tools that really I've acquired, which is listening 695 00:41:44,556 --> 00:41:49,756 Speaker 4: to intuitively to poetry and music and being trying to 696 00:41:49,796 --> 00:41:50,956 Speaker 4: be part of that tradition. 697 00:41:52,596 --> 00:41:54,396 Speaker 2: After this last break, we'll be back with the rest 698 00:41:54,436 --> 00:42:01,236 Speaker 2: of Madeline Peru and John Harrington. We're back with the 699 00:42:01,236 --> 00:42:05,236 Speaker 2: rest of Bruce Hellum's conversation with Madeline Peru and John Harrington. 700 00:42:06,196 --> 00:42:08,836 Speaker 3: You said in the past about how particularly love songs 701 00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:12,996 Speaker 3: are political. Is it because for you it takes you 702 00:42:13,076 --> 00:42:16,556 Speaker 3: into a kind of a different place in your life, 703 00:42:16,676 --> 00:42:21,276 Speaker 3: or it's like being relieved of a feeling of tyranny, 704 00:42:21,396 --> 00:42:29,276 Speaker 3: a feeling of oppression that's political as well. It's not innotonus, Yeah, 705 00:42:29,516 --> 00:42:33,116 Speaker 3: not in a cynical, terrible way, in a very profound way. Yeah. 706 00:42:33,156 --> 00:42:36,436 Speaker 4: And also just the desire to be heard if you 707 00:42:36,476 --> 00:42:40,036 Speaker 4: need help, or to feel like you could be heard, 708 00:42:40,876 --> 00:42:43,236 Speaker 4: you know, if you're going to need help because something 709 00:42:43,316 --> 00:42:44,996 Speaker 4: is going to come down the pike at you and 710 00:42:45,036 --> 00:42:47,196 Speaker 4: you're going to need to survive that. And it's just 711 00:42:47,996 --> 00:42:50,356 Speaker 4: a technique that I think a lot of kids of 712 00:42:51,036 --> 00:42:55,556 Speaker 4: alcoholic parents have are aware of that they was part 713 00:42:55,596 --> 00:42:59,116 Speaker 4: of their way of growing up. But I think when 714 00:42:59,116 --> 00:43:03,156 Speaker 4: I hear somebody like Cornel West turn around and say 715 00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:07,476 Speaker 4: we need to talk about justice is what love looks 716 00:43:07,516 --> 00:43:11,436 Speaker 4: like in public, and tenderness is love in private. And 717 00:43:11,476 --> 00:43:17,436 Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, that's These are not, you know, radical ideas, 718 00:43:17,556 --> 00:43:20,796 Speaker 4: they're loving ideas. They might be radical in a sort 719 00:43:20,796 --> 00:43:24,156 Speaker 4: of Christian way, but I don't think you have to 720 00:43:24,156 --> 00:43:26,716 Speaker 4: be Christian because I'm not going to go for it 721 00:43:26,756 --> 00:43:30,476 Speaker 4: that way. I needed to say the words the Gospel 722 00:43:30,516 --> 00:43:33,036 Speaker 4: of Jesus in the song, and that was an interesting 723 00:43:33,116 --> 00:43:36,276 Speaker 4: moment because I wanted to talk about the message without 724 00:43:36,316 --> 00:43:39,996 Speaker 4: the religion, and I'm not sure if that's even possible 725 00:43:40,036 --> 00:43:41,756 Speaker 4: for some people to grasp what. 726 00:43:41,716 --> 00:43:44,636 Speaker 3: I'm interested with. The feeling you get from Cornell West, 727 00:43:44,636 --> 00:43:50,196 Speaker 3: which is someone saying true, sometimes messy things out loud, 728 00:43:50,276 --> 00:43:53,236 Speaker 3: is that this is a stretch. Is that the same 729 00:43:53,276 --> 00:43:56,596 Speaker 3: feeling you got listening to those great old records you 730 00:43:56,636 --> 00:44:00,916 Speaker 3: love so much, like Ma Rainey and Billie Holliday. Is 731 00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:04,316 Speaker 3: it the same kind of truth telling in a way. 732 00:44:06,756 --> 00:44:12,996 Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting that you say that. A very interesting 733 00:44:13,076 --> 00:44:19,676 Speaker 4: question because it's definitely still taboo right now to open 734 00:44:19,716 --> 00:44:25,276 Speaker 4: the discussion on violence within a relationship, within a romantic relationship, 735 00:44:25,516 --> 00:44:30,916 Speaker 4: and it can ruin the feminist message that, for example, 736 00:44:30,956 --> 00:44:33,596 Speaker 4: Billie Holliday or Bessie Smith or mal Rainie would have 737 00:44:34,316 --> 00:44:40,116 Speaker 4: when they sing about being having a man that mistreats 738 00:44:40,156 --> 00:44:43,116 Speaker 4: them and how much they still love him. But you 739 00:44:43,156 --> 00:44:47,836 Speaker 4: know that's the point. I mean, love is messy. We 740 00:44:47,996 --> 00:44:52,396 Speaker 4: are human. Nobody ever says I'm always right and they're 741 00:44:52,396 --> 00:44:56,236 Speaker 4: always wrong unless you're not really looking at finding the 742 00:44:56,276 --> 00:45:00,676 Speaker 4: truth because you've got to listen to more than one 743 00:45:00,716 --> 00:45:03,596 Speaker 4: perspective to find the truth, even if you don't want 744 00:45:03,636 --> 00:45:05,196 Speaker 4: to agree with it, you have to be aware that 745 00:45:05,236 --> 00:45:05,676 Speaker 4: it's there. 746 00:45:07,036 --> 00:45:09,916 Speaker 3: Your breakthrough album was Careless Love. The reason it's called 747 00:45:09,956 --> 00:45:12,636 Speaker 3: careless Yeah, yeah, yeah. 748 00:45:12,716 --> 00:45:16,676 Speaker 4: That was the WC. Handy song when Bessie smith recording 749 00:45:16,716 --> 00:45:18,436 Speaker 4: was the one that influenced me. And then I met 750 00:45:18,476 --> 00:45:20,916 Speaker 4: Odetta and she was singing it in her own way 751 00:45:20,956 --> 00:45:24,716 Speaker 4: with her different lyrics and discussing the meaning of that song, 752 00:45:24,796 --> 00:45:29,636 Speaker 4: and we perform it all the time, and it's definitely 753 00:45:29,676 --> 00:45:30,836 Speaker 4: been one hundred years now. 754 00:45:30,836 --> 00:45:33,916 Speaker 3: I think, tell me about how I wish on this record? 755 00:45:34,636 --> 00:45:37,196 Speaker 4: So how I wish? I think that's a song that 756 00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:41,516 Speaker 4: I chiseled at like it felt like like maybe what 757 00:45:41,836 --> 00:45:46,396 Speaker 4: sculptors do when they see a shape inside of another 758 00:45:46,476 --> 00:45:50,556 Speaker 4: shape and they remove what's in the way of that, 759 00:45:50,836 --> 00:45:54,636 Speaker 4: And I feel like that was my job, especially with 760 00:45:54,676 --> 00:45:55,396 Speaker 4: the lyrics. 761 00:45:55,756 --> 00:45:57,996 Speaker 3: Okay, let me ask you first, then what was in 762 00:45:58,036 --> 00:45:58,356 Speaker 3: the way. 763 00:45:59,156 --> 00:46:02,956 Speaker 4: I had to accept that I wanted to be able 764 00:46:02,996 --> 00:46:07,236 Speaker 4: to say something to somebody that didn't know me or 765 00:46:07,236 --> 00:46:11,116 Speaker 4: anything about me or anybody else. I wanted it to 766 00:46:11,156 --> 00:46:15,956 Speaker 4: be a blank slate starting point, but a direct conversation 767 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:19,156 Speaker 4: was a lot of my songs tend to be like that. 768 00:46:19,396 --> 00:46:20,956 Speaker 4: I'm talking to somebody. 769 00:46:21,236 --> 00:46:24,476 Speaker 3: Do you always have somebody in mind when you're No? 770 00:46:25,516 --> 00:46:26,996 Speaker 3: I don't think so, did you? 771 00:46:27,036 --> 00:46:30,076 Speaker 4: In this one, I'm probably talking to myself. Okay, well 772 00:46:30,156 --> 00:46:33,916 Speaker 4: that's making it making somebody else suffer, you know, the 773 00:46:34,596 --> 00:46:36,316 Speaker 4: conversation the monologue? 774 00:46:36,876 --> 00:46:38,356 Speaker 3: Is that one of the ones you wanted to play 775 00:46:38,916 --> 00:46:39,276 Speaker 3: very much? 776 00:46:39,356 --> 00:46:44,956 Speaker 4: Yeah? Okay, please one two three, one two? 777 00:47:01,636 --> 00:47:06,796 Speaker 10: How I wish I could bring. 778 00:47:09,236 --> 00:47:18,396 Speaker 8: And slavening and to bear. 779 00:47:19,316 --> 00:47:31,716 Speaker 4: The fat of each chaininess at to which. 780 00:47:33,236 --> 00:47:38,276 Speaker 8: I've been a pot. 781 00:47:37,516 --> 00:47:44,876 Speaker 6: All my Blackmerican hot. 782 00:47:48,156 --> 00:47:53,276 Speaker 8: Wol I'd give and a learn. 783 00:47:55,636 --> 00:48:02,116 Speaker 9: Should some pea and concern. 784 00:48:03,676 --> 00:48:13,316 Speaker 10: Fils empty dread. 785 00:48:11,596 --> 00:48:12,996 Speaker 1: On the world. 786 00:48:14,276 --> 00:48:32,476 Speaker 8: We tread between fear and disgrace all my red American face. 787 00:48:35,156 --> 00:48:36,916 Speaker 1: Would my life. 788 00:48:39,116 --> 00:48:40,636 Speaker 8: Be in vain. 789 00:48:43,156 --> 00:48:44,716 Speaker 4: Pifffin strove. 790 00:48:46,476 --> 00:48:49,556 Speaker 8: Some small pain. 791 00:48:52,676 --> 00:49:01,316 Speaker 1: I gave up the road to this screen. 792 00:49:02,236 --> 00:49:02,916 Speaker 4: And spa. 793 00:49:05,836 --> 00:49:10,716 Speaker 8: Then would my it bigga? 794 00:49:12,236 --> 00:49:19,036 Speaker 6: Oh my white American. 795 00:49:21,476 --> 00:49:56,436 Speaker 11: Skied no more, no more, endlessly. 796 00:49:58,676 --> 00:49:59,636 Speaker 1: Journeying. 797 00:50:02,596 --> 00:50:12,036 Speaker 8: Yet to he freedom. 798 00:50:12,436 --> 00:50:19,196 Speaker 4: Must we all be taught a. 799 00:50:19,516 --> 00:50:29,796 Speaker 8: No name shuns cross before the truth is whole? 800 00:50:32,476 --> 00:50:36,036 Speaker 1: Oh, my lost. 801 00:50:37,556 --> 00:50:38,356 Speaker 8: American. 802 00:50:41,196 --> 00:50:58,476 Speaker 1: So no more, no more, no more. 803 00:51:17,636 --> 00:51:20,316 Speaker 3: You may have to upgrade your opinion of your songwriting. 804 00:51:20,836 --> 00:51:23,076 Speaker 3: And I think that's a great song. 805 00:51:23,836 --> 00:51:24,316 Speaker 4: Thank you. 806 00:51:24,676 --> 00:51:26,556 Speaker 3: I loved everything you were doing on the low strings 807 00:51:26,556 --> 00:51:29,876 Speaker 3: and the accompaniment. It's very uh, it was very Freddy Green, 808 00:51:29,996 --> 00:51:31,876 Speaker 3: I thought, using that D string. 809 00:51:32,956 --> 00:51:33,196 Speaker 5: Yeah. 810 00:51:33,316 --> 00:51:36,596 Speaker 4: Actually John arranged it with a with a different tuning 811 00:51:36,796 --> 00:51:40,276 Speaker 4: for the for the record, you did a love got 812 00:51:40,316 --> 00:51:44,636 Speaker 4: the low D in there, and it was beautiful arranging. 813 00:51:44,756 --> 00:51:48,956 Speaker 4: And uh And I'm glad. I'm glad that that it 814 00:51:49,036 --> 00:51:52,516 Speaker 4: turned out to be a beautiful arrangement because I remember 815 00:51:52,676 --> 00:51:54,836 Speaker 4: John telling me, what are you doing. I was like, 816 00:51:55,156 --> 00:51:58,516 Speaker 4: there's something wrong, there's something missing, don't change it. It 817 00:51:58,596 --> 00:51:59,036 Speaker 4: was good. 818 00:52:00,796 --> 00:52:05,556 Speaker 5: Now, this was one that needed very little and we 819 00:52:05,596 --> 00:52:08,716 Speaker 5: were you were working out for quite what while you're working. 820 00:52:09,236 --> 00:52:09,836 Speaker 3: Quite a while. 821 00:52:09,996 --> 00:52:11,676 Speaker 4: He was trying to teach me how to play the song, 822 00:52:12,076 --> 00:52:14,436 Speaker 4: and he said, well, you wrote it. I said, no, 823 00:52:14,556 --> 00:52:15,156 Speaker 4: I didn't do that. 824 00:52:15,276 --> 00:52:18,196 Speaker 5: You would send You would send stuff like, because you 825 00:52:18,236 --> 00:52:20,636 Speaker 5: were working for quite a long time on the lyric. 826 00:52:20,676 --> 00:52:24,276 Speaker 5: You would send newer versions, you know, with different lyrics, 827 00:52:24,316 --> 00:52:27,436 Speaker 5: so I could hear them and I would notice that, 828 00:52:27,476 --> 00:52:30,036 Speaker 5: well she changed the melody there, or she changed that 829 00:52:30,116 --> 00:52:32,556 Speaker 5: chord progression. They're like, no, what are you doing. I 830 00:52:32,596 --> 00:52:34,876 Speaker 5: loved what you did early, so I mean so I 831 00:52:34,916 --> 00:52:37,156 Speaker 5: had to sort of keep cracking the whip so you 832 00:52:37,196 --> 00:52:39,396 Speaker 5: would just not lose what was great about in the beginning. 833 00:52:39,716 --> 00:52:43,076 Speaker 5: The first version of this basically had all the music 834 00:52:43,276 --> 00:52:47,036 Speaker 5: and you know, melody and chords and mostly the form too. 835 00:52:47,396 --> 00:52:52,956 Speaker 5: And there's no single version of a song in any 836 00:52:53,076 --> 00:52:56,596 Speaker 5: former incarnation that that was just yours alone or just 837 00:52:56,716 --> 00:52:59,956 Speaker 5: mine alone that was better than the collaboration turned out 838 00:52:59,956 --> 00:53:02,996 Speaker 5: to be. So yeah, in all cases, the collaboration I 839 00:53:02,996 --> 00:53:05,796 Speaker 5: think helped, and I find that's almost always true. 840 00:53:06,596 --> 00:53:08,836 Speaker 3: We should end there. I've got a million other questions, 841 00:53:09,556 --> 00:53:11,836 Speaker 3: but I've taken a lot of your time and it's 842 00:53:11,876 --> 00:53:13,916 Speaker 3: been fabulous. You real treat. 843 00:53:16,756 --> 00:53:19,556 Speaker 2: Thanks again to Madeline Peru and John Harrington for talking 844 00:53:19,596 --> 00:53:22,916 Speaker 2: about the making of their new album Let's Walk. You 845 00:53:22,916 --> 00:53:24,956 Speaker 2: can hear it along with other songs from Madeline on 846 00:53:24,996 --> 00:53:29,036 Speaker 2: a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Subscribe to 847 00:53:29,076 --> 00:53:32,556 Speaker 2: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, 848 00:53:32,596 --> 00:53:35,676 Speaker 2: where you can find all of our new episodes. You 849 00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:37,116 Speaker 2: can follow us on Twitter. 850 00:53:36,876 --> 00:53:37,916 Speaker 3: At broken Record. 851 00:53:38,436 --> 00:53:41,356 Speaker 2: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with 852 00:53:41,476 --> 00:53:44,956 Speaker 2: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer 853 00:53:45,156 --> 00:53:49,516 Speaker 2: is Ben Tolliney. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 854 00:53:49,916 --> 00:53:52,716 Speaker 2: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 855 00:53:52,756 --> 00:53:57,076 Speaker 2: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 856 00:53:57,196 --> 00:53:59,916 Speaker 2: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 857 00:54:00,116 --> 00:54:03,356 Speaker 2: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 858 00:54:03,396 --> 00:54:07,396 Speaker 2: podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember 859 00:54:07,436 --> 00:54:09,956 Speaker 2: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast. Staff 860 00:54:10,276 --> 00:54:13,036 Speaker 2: are theme music's by Canny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.