1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're gonna be talking about 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: domestic violence. So first just want to issue a trigger 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: warning that we will be addressing things including emotional, physical, 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: and sexual violence within relationships. But this is such an 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: important topic for us to cover, and unfortunately it is 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: a newsworthy item, but it's also something that's happening every 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: single day in relationships, and we've never really talked about 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: domestic violence before on the podcast. And partially we're talking 11 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: about this because of the incident that happened between NFL 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: player Ray Rice and his then fiancee, Jenney Palmer Um, 13 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: in which a video surfaced of Rice dragging Palmer unconscious 14 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: out of an elevator Um. But not just the incident itself, 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: but also the huge conversation that came up in the 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: media around that incident Um and what sort of rose 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: to the surface in all of this was sort of 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: a a general cry from people in the media just 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: demanding to know why Gene Palmer now Jennet Palmer Rice 20 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: would stay in the relationship, and there seemed to be 21 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: like a huge misunderstanding about domestic violence in general and 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence in particular. So we definitely wanted 23 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: to address a lot of these issues. And there were 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: also conversations too that came up about it in terms 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: of men as victims of domestic violence as well, because 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: in that elevator video, Jenne does strike ray Rice at 27 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: one point, and we're not going to get into the 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: details of the video, um all of us to say, 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: there is a lot to talk about, because if there 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is anything that all of these conversations about the NFL 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: and issues of domestic violence have brought to the surface 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: is the fact that there's a lot of misunderstanding about 33 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: domestic violence. So first of all, I just want to 34 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: establish the fact of how common it is and why 35 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: it can be problematic to just frame the conversation surrounding 36 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: the NFL as a scandal, as though it's just one 37 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: isolated incident or a few incidents that have happened. Because 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: in the United States, more than one in three women 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: and more than one in four men have experienced rape, 40 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: physical violence, and or stalking by an intimate partner in 41 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: their lifetime right, And so it's definitely worth throwing out 42 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: those numbers because I feel like, you know, it's it's 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: just not something that's talked about. I mean, it's talked 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: about in terms of victims rights and things like that 45 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: and criminal prosecution, and you do hear about it in 46 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: the news sometimes, especially if it's someone famous, like an 47 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: NFL player, But in general, domestic violence is hugely under reported. 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: This is coming from the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence. 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: They reported that only about a quarter of all physical assaults, 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: about a fifth of all rapes, and about half of 51 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: all stockings perpetuated against women by intimate partners are reported 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: to police. And that's another thing about domestic violence too, 53 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: is that it seems like we only hear about it 54 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: and we only begin talking about it more openly after 55 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: the fact. So let's talk about what happens before the fact. 56 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: Let's talk about risk factors. And a lot of this 57 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: is coming from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 58 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: which has begun collecting data and actually issued its first 59 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: major report on domestic violence in the US in two 60 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: thousand and ten. So just some of the risk factors 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: involved with people who are victims and perpetuators of domestic 62 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: violence include things like low self esteem, low income, young age. 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: Actually women in their early twenties from twenty to twenty 64 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: five are the likeliest victims of domestic violence. There are 65 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: issues such as heavy alcohol and drug use, depression, obviously 66 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: aggressive behavior in your youth, having few friends, being socially isolated, right, 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: and a big one is being a victim of physical 68 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: or psychological abuse previously in your life that is consistently 69 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: one of the strongest predictors of perpetration of domestic violence, 70 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: but also experiencing poor parenting or strong physical discipline as 71 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: a child. And there are risk factors as well just 72 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: within the relationship dynamics, such as marital conflicts or instability. 73 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: There might be issues of dominance and imbalance of power 74 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: in relationships to where you have one partner who is 75 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: heavily and abusively dominant over the other. Economic stress is 76 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: something that often comes up with this as well, just 77 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: adding to the conflict and instability within relationship ships and 78 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: also unhealthy family relationships and interactions. There's definitely a strong 79 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: social component to it as well, in terms of either 80 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: the unstable relationships surrounding you or just blatant isolation. Right 81 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: And if we move outward a little bit, there are 82 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: definitely strong community and larger societal factors that affect domestic 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: violence as well. Um, things like poverty and issues associated 84 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 1: with poverty such as overcrowding, but also issues like having 85 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: low social capital, a lack of institutions and connections in 86 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: your community that can support you and your family, UM, 87 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: and just weak community sanctions against intimate partner violence. So basically, 88 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: if your neighbors or family or friends are unwilling or 89 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: unable to step in when they witness violence happening. And 90 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: there's also the big issue of traditional gender norms. UM. 91 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: This issue of violent masculinity in particular is something that 92 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: researchers look into a lot, so particularly in heterosexual relationships, 93 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: which and we'll get into this more. A lot of 94 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: domestic violence research is focused in a very heteronormative framework, 95 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: usually with the hyperdominant male partner having very traditional gender beliefs, 96 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: for instance, women needing to stay at home, not into 97 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: the workforce, being submissive sort of men being the heads 98 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: of the household, but to an abusive and potentially violent extent. 99 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: And if we're looking at the different types of violent 100 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: acts that constitute intimate partner or in domestic violence. Those 101 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: include physical violence, sexual violence, threats of physical or sexual violence, stalking, 102 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: and psychological aggression by a current or former intimate partner. 103 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: And when you look at the gender divide in terms 104 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: of abuse threatened or suffered, women are likelier to experience 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: multiple forms of abuse. Um Among victims of intimate partner violence, 106 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: more than one in three women experienced multiple forms of rape, stalking, 107 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: or physical violence, and nine two point one percent of 108 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: male victims of domestic violence experienced physical violence alone. And 109 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: if we just look at sexual violence, nearly one in 110 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: ten women has been raped by an intimate partner in 111 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: her lifetime. And when it comes to sexual violence other 112 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: than rape, meaning vaginal penetration, you know, against your consent, 113 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: an estimated sixteen point nine percent of women and eight 114 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: percent of men have experienced it at some point in 115 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: their lifetime. And we're getting into all of these details 116 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the different types of violence that can occur, 117 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: because I think it's important to understand just how what 118 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: all constitutes domestic violence, because I think that a lot 119 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: of times we just assume that it's limited to someone 120 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: punching some someone else, right, But there's so much more 121 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: to it than that. Yeah, So if you look at 122 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: severe physical violence, for instance by an intimate partner, one 123 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: in four women and one in seven men have suffered 124 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: severe physical violence. But if you look at stalking, for instance, 125 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: which is not something that we stereotypically associate with domestic violence, 126 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: ten point seven percent of women and two point one 127 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: percent of men have experienced stalking. And psychological aggression is 128 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: a huge factor of this and definitely one that tends 129 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: to be left out of our you know, sort of 130 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: common framework of domestic violence of thinking of it as 131 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: something that is very physical, but there's definitely the psychological 132 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: aspect to it as well as over forty percent of 133 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: both men and women have experienced that kind of emotional 134 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: and psychological abuse. And getting back to the age factor, 135 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: most of this abuse first takes place before age, right, 136 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: and sort of driving home how pervasive domestic violence intimate 137 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: partner violence is. Intimate partner violence accounts for fift of 138 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: all violent crime in this country, and the US has 139 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: the highest rate of intimate partner homicide among the world's 140 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: wealthiest twenty five countries. That amounts to over sixteen thousand. 141 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: That's actually six hundred homicides every year because of intimate 142 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: partner violence, and when it comes to female homicides in 143 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: the US, almost a third of those were killed by 144 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: an intimate partner, and three point one percent of male 145 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: homicides in the US were committed by a female intimate partner. 146 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: And again that in those statistics are clearly focusing on 147 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: heterosexual relationships, but there has been more emerging data and 148 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: research and also outreach towards the LGBT community because they're 149 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: not immune from domestic violence at as well. It's important 150 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that violence does happen within these relationships because 151 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: the fact that are domestic violence framework and resources too 152 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: are often focused on straight couples. That means that there 153 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: tend to be a lot of limited resources for LGBT victims, 154 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: especially transgender victims of violence. Right. And so this whole 155 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: framework that Christens talking about is just the idea of 156 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: the woman being the battered party and the man being 157 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: the abuser, and that tends to make it hard for 158 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: either one to find help in a same sex relationship 159 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: because they're often faced with attitudes from law enforcement or 160 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: other community services that basically, if you're two guys, just 161 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: work it out, just fight and get it over with, 162 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: or if you're two women, well two women don't hit 163 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: each other exactly. And to that point, in a two 164 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen CDC report, they said, quote little is known 165 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: about the national prevalence of intimate partner violence, sexual violence, 166 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: and stalking among lesbian, gay, and bisexual men and women 167 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: in the United States. But from the data they have 168 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: collected so far, it's clear that more research needs to 169 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: be done into certain kinds of relationship dynamics, because, for instance, 170 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: bisexuals have higher rates of experiencing domestic violence. Um of them, 171 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: at least, according to data from the CDC, have been 172 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: with a violent partner, as opposed to forty percent of 173 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: lesbian women and forty percent of straight women. When it 174 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: comes to men, for bisexual men that number was forty 175 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: seven percent, and for gay men it was and for 176 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: straight men. So statistically there is a bit of a hierarchy. 177 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: But again, in the CDC's own words, little is still 178 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: known about what exactly is going on within those communities, 179 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: because it's only been within the past few years that 180 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: they've even started paying closer attention to it, right, And 181 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: one strong piece of evidence that we can see that 182 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: same sex couples by sexual couples are getting more attention 183 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: in this arena. Is when President Obama resigned the Violence 184 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: Against Women Act, it did include a section about same 185 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: sex couples offering protection. But we do, I think, have 186 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: a long way to go, because in terms of lesbian couples, 187 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: for instance, both women could end up in a shelter. 188 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: For instance, you know, one woman could be abused and 189 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: could be seeking help and shelter, whereas the other woman 190 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: could lie and say that she was also abused and 191 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: end up infiltrating the same the same shelter. And when 192 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: it comes to shelters, that finding that kind of resource. 193 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, beds are scarce in shelters 194 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: to begin with, but for transgender victims of domestic violence, 195 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: finding a shelter that will accept them can be even 196 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: more challenging because some of them are not going to 197 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: be as opening and welcome to transgender victims because of 198 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: rules that they might have in place, or they might 199 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: be religious organizations that might not be so keen on that. 200 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: So there's definitely more work that needs to be done 201 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: in that regard. But we also need to to talk 202 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: about women, not only as victims in need of shelter 203 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: and resources. But we also need to talk about women 204 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: as abusers. Yeah, and part of the problem is that, um, 205 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: if a woman is the perpetrator of violence, um, it 206 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: tends to be not even just ignored, but laughed off, 207 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: saying you know, oh well, you obviously can't handle your woman, 208 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, if if you're letting her do this to you. 209 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: And this was shown to be the case in an experiment. 210 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: This happened in London. This was Mankind's hashtag violence is 211 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: Violence project where they showed and they caught on camera 212 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: a man and shoving a woman, and people's reactions around 213 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: them were like they immediately stepped in and said, what 214 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: are you doing? What are you thinking? Stop hurting her. 215 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: When the tables were turned and they had their actress 216 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: shoved the actor and get violent with him and he 217 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: pulled his hair and shoved him into a fence and whatever. 218 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: People were just kind of laughing about it, which only 219 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: serves to reinforce those heteronormative, like hyper masculine gender roles 220 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: of man. You need to be, you know, taking care 221 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: of your woman. If you can't keep her in line, 222 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: then what's wrong with you? I mean those are the same, 223 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: that's the same kind of thinking that feeds into man 224 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: on woman domestic violence. But I think it's too when 225 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: you start googling around for statistics, for instance, on women 226 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: as abusers men as victims of domestic violence. Again sticking 227 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: within this heteronormative framework, what comes up a lot are 228 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: arguments made for pticularly by self labeled men's rights activists, 229 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: that the societal deck is stacked against men because domestic 230 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: violence does happen to men, but a lot of the 231 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: resources out there are clearly geared toward women because feminists 232 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: from the get go in the seventies one second way 233 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: feminism really started kicking up, feminists made domestic violence one 234 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: of their major platforms. And so there are these arguments 235 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: to come up a lot that that that's sort of 236 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: a conspiracy in a way to keep men down and 237 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: frames domestic violence assistance and resources as a zero sum game, 238 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: that men need more attention, and that women are really 239 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: just trying to take away more of men's rights. And 240 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to get deep into that, but I 241 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: just wanted to acknowledge that because it is something that 242 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: will come up very quickly in your Google results when 243 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: you start looking for that, UM. But the truth of 244 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,239 Speaker 1: the matter is, when you start looking into those dynamics 245 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: of female perpetrated domestic violence, they're do tend to be 246 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: different kinds of relationship factors involved, which are also very 247 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: important to understand, right exactly, Yeah, it is not all 248 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: black and white, and it's important to look at what's 249 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: going on behind the statistics. And so we looked at 250 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: a report by Michael S. Kimmel, who's a sociology professor 251 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: at sunny Stony Brook in two thousand one UM that 252 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: talked about how much of woman on man violence is 253 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: committed in self defense and actually ends up putting that 254 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: woman at greater risk of injury herself because she is 255 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: far likelier to end up getting hurt if the man retaliates. 256 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: And this is this really ties into what was going 257 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: on with the Ray Rice Janet Palmer Rice incident, with 258 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people in the media and a lot 259 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: of people in the sports community saying, oh, well, Janet 260 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: hit Ray first, he retaliated, But a lot of that 261 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: has to do with that if you are a victim 262 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: with an abuser and you're trying to defend yourself, things 263 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: can spiral out of control. Well, and when you are, 264 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: I mean just that physical imbalance in terms of her 265 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: physical strengths, is his physical strength. If she hits him, 266 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: his retaliation to her clearly is going to be far 267 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: more severe just by sheer fact of muscle mass. Right, 268 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: and um, Women's violence towards men is certainly different from 269 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: that of men committed against women because of that whole 270 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: weight and strength factor. It is far less injurious and 271 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: far less likely to be motivated by attempts to dominate 272 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: or terrorists the partner because you know, Kristen mentioned earlier 273 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 1: that whole stereotypical gender dominance issue in or that exists 274 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: in a relationship, and so a woman is not likely 275 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: to be acting from a place of domination. Yeah. And 276 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: again this is not to minimize men being victims of 277 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: domestic violence. Again, I mean, I think the psychological and 278 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: emotional abuse is a huge factor to this. It was well, 279 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: because when it comes to that kind of abuse, there 280 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: is gender parity, unfortunately, just overtent in fact of both 281 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: men and women have experienced that. And again one in 282 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: seven men have experienced severe physical violence by an intimate partner. 283 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: So this isn't to say or try to erase those 284 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: statistics or negate the issues you know that men are facing, 285 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: and negate the fact that there are some women who 286 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: are simply out and out blatant abusers. Right, some women 287 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: are violent and are trying to terrorize their partners. But 288 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: I think it's important to talk about the nuances within that, 289 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: especially because there was so much hue and cry, unfortunately 290 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: when it came to that Ray Rice video of people saying, well, 291 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: she hit him first, and like you said, Caroline, it's 292 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: not again and again and again. It's important to remember 293 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: that it's not all black and white. It's never black 294 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: and white in these kinds of situations, right, exactly, And um, 295 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: all of this is backed up by a meta analysis 296 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: from October two thousand eight and the journal Trauma, Violence 297 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: and Abuse that found that female perpetrated domestic violence is 298 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: likeliest to take the form of emotional abuse. And I'm wondering, 299 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: just from my own personal perspective, if that's not the 300 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: case simply because of weight and strength differences, if that's 301 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: just not the weapon that women have at their disposal. 302 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a guy friend who was the 303 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: victim of extreme emotional and psychological abuse by a female partner. 304 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: And you know, I would certainly never want to downplay 305 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: the suffering that he went through, but you know, it's 306 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: not that he was hit or be beaten or experienced 307 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: physical violence necessarily at her hand. Well, and one thing 308 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: that I read in prepping for this podcast too was 309 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: that the psychological aggression and abuse perpetrated by women might 310 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: be more of the the go to form of it too, 311 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: because women tend to be more socialized. I mean, just 312 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: think about it in terms of our female adolescent relationships, 313 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: Like the type of abuse that tends to happen is 314 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: the more socialized kind of bullying. Girls usually don't aren't 315 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: as likely to say fist fight as they are too 316 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: just really enact like psychological warfare, so nasty notes and 317 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: talking behind backs instead of a fist fight in the cafeteria. Well, 318 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: and I think too that the prevalence of that psychological 319 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: and emotional abuse does add another layer of news to 320 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: the lack of resources for men who are in those 321 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: kinds of abusive relationships because there is no physical evidence. 322 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: And it is worth noting that a lot of these 323 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: patterns of intimate partner violence among women as perpetrators often 324 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: start at an early age, but the data do suggests 325 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: that girls who perpetrate intimate partner violence may themselves experience 326 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: more violent or frequent intimate partner violence victimization. Now, when 327 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: it comes to the portrayal of women as the perpetrators, 328 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: there was a study about this that came out in 329 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: September twelve and the journal Violence against Women and talked 330 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: about how women are three times likelier than men to 331 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: be arrested when they were construed as the perpetrator. And 332 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: that might possibly be because typically our again our framework 333 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: is of the male abuser and the female victim. And 334 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: when they talked to about in this paper is how 335 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: because of that gendered framework, which goes back in along 336 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: too for a long time in history, that women in 337 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: these situations are usually portrayed in these kinds of court 338 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: cases as pathological perpetuators of violence, whereas men are often 339 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: portrayed if if they are, you know, the abusers, they 340 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: are then portrayed as the batterers. Because it's almost as 341 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: if it's such a violation of this like nastiest kind 342 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: of gender norm, if you want to even call it that, 343 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: that there's even a separate kind of language to describe 344 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: the woman as the abuser, right, and researchers Ellen Pens 345 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: and Shamina Dasta Skupta talk a lot about this whole division, 346 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: this language division, and the meaning behind it, and they 347 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: talk about how the word itself battering signifies a pattern 348 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: of things like coercive control and intimidation and oppressure, and 349 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: that women suffer at the hands of men in their lives, 350 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: whereas the idea of pathological violence comes from, well, the 351 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: woman is doing it because she's abusing substances, she's suffering 352 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: a mental illness or a physical disorder, maybe she has 353 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: neurological damage, and then uses physical violence against others, including 354 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: intimate partners. And they write it is exceptional for the 355 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: woman to achieve the kind of dominance over her male 356 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: partner that characterizes battering. And so we see these gender 357 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: divides even in the very language that we use, whether 358 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: it's medically or in the legal system, to describe violence 359 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: perpetrated against men versus women. Well and again and again 360 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: and again too. What keeps coming to my mind is 361 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: how so much of this subconscious or at least unconscious 362 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: framing and language that's used again does such a disservice 363 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: to men because it constantly assumes that they need no 364 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: sort of psychological background or impetus is for being violent. 365 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: It's simply within their natures, whereas women usually need some 366 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, when this happens, people are looking for like, oh, well, 367 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: what what could be the issue? Why, what could possibly 368 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: provoke her to do this? And that's part of the 369 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: reason why there's actually this term battered women's syndrome, which 370 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: is a defense developed in the mid nineteen seventies by 371 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: Dr Leonor Walker to help combat the sex bias present 372 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: in criminal law, particularly in the case of women killing 373 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: their male intimate partners um who had been I mean, 374 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: it was largely cases of self defense when it comes 375 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: to this battered women's syndrome. And there is a paper 376 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: that we found about this in the American Bar Association 377 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: talking about how in these cases if a woman who 378 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: had been previously abused by her partner at one point 379 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: like kills her partner, there like they needed some kind 380 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: of again, some kind of like psychological explanation for what 381 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: was going on, right, And I mean, I think it's 382 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: crazy to even think of a time when the law 383 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: did not even recognize this, this idea of self defense 384 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: and an abusive intimate partner relationship. Well because for a 385 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: long time, the law didn't even acknowledge or feel like 386 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: it was its place to step into domestic violence to 387 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: begin with. But it's interesting in this In this paper, 388 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: it also talks about how the fact that this thing 389 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: is called a syndrome, battered Women's syndrome, definitely pathologizes victimhood. 390 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: And so it led to yes, a lot of women, 391 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, not being sent to prison for murdering their abusers, 392 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: but also being excused simply by the for the idea 393 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: that they are irrational or incapacitated. But the authors of 394 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: the paper certainly do not argue that we should do 395 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: away with this idea. This to into this concept, we 396 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: obviously still need an idea of self defense, whether it's 397 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: in an intimate partner relationship or not. Right, right, And 398 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: I mean and again and again, I feel like I'm 399 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: just repeating myself so many times in this episode, because 400 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: it's yet another layer of gray within all of it. Right, 401 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: and when we look at the battered Women's syndrome issue, 402 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: this defense and acting women acting in self defense and 403 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: killing their abuser. This is something that Michael S. Kimmel 404 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: also talked about. He's a sociology professor that we mentioned earlier, 405 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: and he wrote in his two thousand one report that 406 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: men actually benefit from efforts to reduce male violence against women. 407 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: He wrote that it turns out that efforts to protect 408 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: women in the US have had the effect of reducing 409 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: the murder rate of men by their partners by almost 410 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: seventy percent over the past twenty four years. So if 411 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: you protect women, you're also protecting men. Imagine that well, 412 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: And that's another reason why domestic violence resources and assistance 413 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: and legal protections should not be framed as some kind 414 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: of zero sum game, because there you know clearly there 415 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: are benefits to it that it's not just helping women. 416 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: Do there need to be more resources out there for 417 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: men as victims of domestic violence. Absolutely. Do there need 418 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: to be more resources out there for LGBT victims of 419 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: domestic violence. Absolutely, But again it seems like taking resources 420 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: away from straight women is not going to help anyone 421 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: in the long run. Right, So we now need to 422 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: talk about, though, what happens when women don't seek out 423 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: the resources, or if they do and then they return 424 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: to their abuser, because that is something that happens a lot, 425 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: and like Caroline mentioned at the top of the podcast, 426 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: one reason we wanted to have this conversation today is 427 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: because of the why I Stayed hashtag that surfaced on 428 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: Twitter and resp on to a lot of people talking about, 429 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, Jenny Palmer Rice saying well, why is she 430 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: even in this relationship to begin with? She stuck around. 431 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about the cycle of abuse 432 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: and why victims returned to their abusers when we come 433 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. So, what I think 434 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't realize, and what a lot 435 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: of people also don't understand, is how difficult it can 436 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: be for a victim to leave the abuser. And I 437 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: think that's evident in a common statistic that it takes 438 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: a victim seven times to ultimately and finally leave an 439 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: abusive relationship. And you can see that ignorance of this 440 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: cycle of abuse that happens that we're going to talk 441 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: about in more detail. Whenever these kinds of cases of 442 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: domestic violence, it's intimate partner violence become national news, not 443 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: just in the case of Ray Rice, but also going 444 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: back a few years to Rihanna and Chris Brown, where 445 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: there were the same kinds of well, what is she 446 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: even doing in this relationship? Why why is she staying? 447 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is it's not just 448 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: about escaping the physical abuse, because in the process of 449 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: that abuse happening, there is a lot of psychological underpinnings 450 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: that make it hard and sometimes impossible for some victims, 451 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: where seemingly impossible for some victims to lead because it 452 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: sets up this pendulum in a way of pain that 453 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: swings between being fearful, being angry, being resentful of your abuser, 454 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: but then going into feelings of guilt, shame, anxiety of thinking, 455 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: well maybe I did something, Oh well what if people 456 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: find out? How am I going to live without this person? Right? 457 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: And all that definitely ties into issues of codependency, because 458 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: you're thinking, this person is suffering, this person is unhappy 459 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: and scared and angry. How can here she stay with 460 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: this abusive partner? And when you are in a codependent 461 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: relationship and you are the codependent party, you feel that 462 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: it's almost your responsibility to fix or to save the 463 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: person that you're with, and that if only I give 464 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: him or her my full support and do everything I 465 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: can to help him or her, then this situation will 466 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: get better, you can fix the person, right and you 467 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: just can't. Yeah, and um, I mean and I think 468 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: to the fact that it's such a taboo topic also 469 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: feeds into this psychological cycle of abuse. So in terms 470 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: of the cycle of abuse, help guide dot org actually 471 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: laid out a very clear picture of what that means. 472 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: When you start the cycle with abuse, this is when 473 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: basically one of the partners is sort of issuing a 474 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: power play designed to show who is boss there being aggressive, 475 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: they're belittling their partner or acting in a violent way. 476 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: So after that initial abuse happens, the abusive partner might 477 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: feel a sense of guilt, might be concerned about what 478 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: he or she has done, concerned about losing the other partner, 479 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: and so then a period of excuses and rationalization often 480 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: takes place of the partner trying to rationalize the violence 481 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: that has taken place, perhaps placing blame on the other person, 482 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: on the victim for you know, asking for bringing on 483 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: or triggering that kind of violent behavior, which is then 484 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: followed by a period of quote unquote normalcy or what's 485 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: sometimes dubbed the honeymoon phase, where the abuser does everything 486 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: in his or her power to regain control and keep 487 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: that partner in the relationship, which might mean acting like 488 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: nothing has ever happened, just sweeping it under the rug, 489 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: or really turning up the charm, like really promising to 490 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: change and going out of his or her way to 491 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: be sweeked right. And then this leads to a terrible 492 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: period that I really was not aware of before I 493 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: looked at this cycle of abuse chart. But it's the 494 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: fantasy and planning phase where basically, once the abuser has 495 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: secured you back in this relationship, through this honeymoon period 496 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: of being nice and normal so to speak, here she 497 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: begins to fantasize about abusing you again the way that 498 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: it will happen, um making a plan for turning this 499 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: fantasy of abuse into reality, basically looking around at anything 500 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote wrong this victim might do, and 501 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: then lashing out. Yeah. I mean it's followed then yeah, 502 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: by the setup of some kind of situation. It's that 503 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: rationalization phase again, but almost in reverse, rationalizing the pre 504 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: planning for something that he or she can then lash 505 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: out at, and the cycle then begins a new and 506 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: a lot of times the abuser, after it happened will 507 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: be apologetic and will be act even lovingly toward the 508 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: other person, which only reinforces a lot of the codependency. 509 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: There might be, you know, he or she might beg 510 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: the other person to stay, to help them, to fix them. 511 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: Don't let it people other people know because it is 512 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: so taboo and not talked about. What will people think? Yeah, 513 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: and you know, krist and I've talked about gas lighting 514 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: on the podcast before. That's definitely part of the cycle. 515 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: And gas lighting, of course, refers to uh just basically, 516 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: long story short, making your partner feel crazy. Um, you know, 517 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: they have legitimate feelings or thoughts or concerns and you 518 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: basically downplay them and say, oh, you're nuts. And that's gaslighting, 519 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: and that plays into both emotional and physical manipulation and violence. 520 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: And the Why I Stayed hashtag offers so many examples 521 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: of how what that cycle of abuse really looks like 522 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: in the real world. And it was started by writer 523 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: bever Really Gordon in response to that victim blaming directed 524 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: at Jenney Palmer Rice and so one of her tweets 525 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: of why I stayed was he said he would change, 526 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: He promised. It was the last time I believed him. 527 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: He lied, right, And other tweets say things like my 528 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: mom had three young kids, a mortgage on a part 529 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: time job, my dad had a full time paycheck, our 530 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: church behind him, and a bigger fist. Another tweet was 531 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,439 Speaker 1: because he never hit me and I didn't think verbal 532 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: abuse and emotional manipulation was considered an abusive relationship, and 533 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: so things like that. I mean, just in those three tweets, 534 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: you see the importance of education about abuse and abusive 535 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: relationships in the different forms it can take, and the 536 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: importance of providing support to people who need it. Absolutely, 537 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: because it is clear that there in that tragically there 538 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: because we don't talk about it enough. Clearly, there's not 539 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: even a recognition of what those kinds of violent behaviors 540 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: really are and all the different forms that they can take. 541 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: But what we also no is that not only does 542 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: it often take a long time for victims to finally 543 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: and completely leave their abusers, which can be hard because 544 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: again remember that stalking is a violent behavior as well. 545 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: That's part of this too, So sometimes they have to 546 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: geographically get as far away from their you know, ex 547 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: partner as possible. But even after the violence stops, there 548 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: are long term health effects. Right if you look at 549 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: the psychological fallout. Specifically, among female victims said they were 550 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: fearful as a result of intimate partner violence were concerned 551 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: for their safety. Sixty two percent also experienced at least 552 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: one post traumatic stress disorder symptom after the fact, and 553 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: twenty percent missed at least one day of work or school. 554 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: So it is worth repeating that the fallout from domestic 555 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: violence is not always going to be visible. And in 556 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: addition to those psychological repercussions, there are also long term 557 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: health effects that a lot of people don't recognize either, 558 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: including doctors. Um and we read about this in a 559 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: really in depth article in More magazine called Domestic Violence 560 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: a Hidden Cause of Chronic Illness, and the author writes, 561 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: domestic violence has an insidiously long half life, and by 562 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: that she means that it has high risks of chronic 563 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: health problems including arthritis and hormonal disorders asthma, diabetes, hypertension, 564 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: chronic pain, severe headaches, and irritable bowel syndrome. Yeah, this article, 565 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: I found it to be incredibly disturbing because this is 566 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: something that I literally have never read before. They have 567 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: the long term health effects and you hear Kristen say 568 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: things like arthritis, hormonal disorders, asthma, and how could that 569 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: possibly come out of domestic violence. But when you think 570 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: about you've probably read articles or or her podcasts on 571 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: the effects of various types of stress and what happens 572 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: to your body and your brain when you are under 573 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: an incredible amount of stress over a long period of time. 574 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: And domestic violence is a huge cause of this chronic stress. Basically, 575 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: your fight or flight is in constant engagement, and that 576 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: can do horrible things to your body. Yeah, it actually 577 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: trims the length of telomeres, which are protective caps on 578 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: the ends of our chromosomes that affect how quickly our 579 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: cells age. And under that kind of chronic stress that 580 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence live with even after the relationship 581 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: is over, those telomeres tend to shorten and which can 582 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: lead to a shorter lifespan. Um For another statistic, victims 583 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: of domestic violence spend more on medical care than other 584 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: women due to either outright injuries or chronic stress or terror. 585 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: Right and the CDC released a two thousand eight study 586 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: looking at the medical costs that come out of this 587 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: in the United States, and they estimated that those costs 588 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: fall somewhere between twenty billion and fifty nine billion dollars 589 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: every year. And in addition to the you know, the 590 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: stress impacts on a biological level for a number of 591 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: domestic violence victims. They might not get proper medical care 592 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: when violence incidents occur, and that can have long lasting 593 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: effects as well, or just simply have long lasting effects 594 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: from having to their bodies having to sustain repeated acts 595 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: of violence. So, for instance, um More Magazine talked to 596 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: the author of the memoir Crazy Love, which is all 597 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: about this violent relationship that this woman was in, and 598 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: she said that even today, decades down the line, she 599 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: still us trouble with short term memory and arthritis in 600 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: her shoulders, hands, risks, joints, and ankles, especially in the 601 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: areas that he beat her. Right, And they talked to 602 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: another woman who had had six miscarriages and you know, 603 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: just thinking, oh gosh, you know, what's wrong with me, 604 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: what's going on with my body? And doctors told her 605 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: that it was entirely possible that her endocrine system, her 606 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: hormone system, had been compromised by the brain damage that 607 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: she had suffered repeatedly at the hands of her husband, 608 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: and that was making it hard to carry a baby 609 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: to term. Yeah. Michelle Black, who is an epidemiologist at 610 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: the CDC who was the lead author of a landmark 611 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven report on domestic violence related illness, told 612 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: More magazine that your whole body is at risk. There 613 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: is no organ that's immune from this kind of long 614 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: term damage, right, And they talked about sort of the 615 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: biology behind this, and therefore too it is allostatic load, 616 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: which is basically the fact that it's sort of an awful, 617 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: terrible mental and emotional and physical cycle where you have 618 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: these terrible things that happen to you, but you also 619 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: have the memories of these terrible things that end up 620 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: getting stored in the amygdala. These generate what's called cytokines, 621 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: their chemical messengers that elevate inflammation in nearly every system 622 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: in your body. In response, your body ends up releasing cortisol, 623 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: which is a stress hormone. So normally your body works 624 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: to keep everything in balance under control. But if these 625 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: traumatic memories keep resurfacing and keep sounding the alarm bell 626 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: for years after or after the abuse has suffered, it 627 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: generates way too much inflammation for your body to handle, 628 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: and your body loses the ability to regulate cortisol, the 629 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: stress hormone, so you're under that constant level of stress. 630 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: A lot of women also who have experienced domestic violence, 631 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: and men too, i'm sure, also carry long symptoms of 632 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 1: post traumatic stres disorder, So you know, things can be 633 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: very triggering that can set off that allis static load 634 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: and Caroline, when I was reading this that I was 635 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: thinking about the horrible irony of the fact that this 636 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,720 Speaker 1: entire conversation was spurred by domestic violence among NFL players 637 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: in particular, and previously the biggest controversy within the NFL 638 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 1: has been the NFL having to take into account players 639 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: having sustained years and years and years of violence and 640 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: head injuries now dealing with similar long term effects of this, 641 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: and the NFL having to take that into account and 642 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: you know, pay players for that kind of abuse that 643 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: they suffered on the field. And these are the same 644 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: kinds of symptoms and long term and chronic health impacts 645 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: that some of these women who are very much also 646 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: connected to the NFL are dealing with as well, and 647 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: similar the something that we just don't think about or 648 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: don't really understand as fully as we could which is 649 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: yet another reason why it's so important that we talk 650 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: about this more and not just talk about it in 651 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: reaction to these events happening. Yeah. Now, Chris and I 652 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: have given you a lot of information throughout this podcast, 653 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: things that you should be aware of, but we do 654 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: also have resources to give you as well. UM. In 655 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: the US, you can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline 656 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: at one seven nine nine seven two three three safe. 657 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: In the UK you can call Women's Aid at zero 658 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: eight zero eight two thousand, two four seven, and worldwide, 659 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: you can visit the International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies 660 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: for a global list of helplines and crisis centers, and 661 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: male victims of abuse also have hotlines they can call. 662 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: In the US and Canada there's the Domestic Abuse Helpline 663 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: for Men and Women. In UK there's Mankind Initiative, and 664 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: in Australia there's the one in three campaign. And we'll 665 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: be posting links to all of these resources and all 666 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 1: of these hotlines on our website stuff. But I'm never 667 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: told you dot com so you can find them there 668 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: as well. So we do want to hear from you 669 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: about this issue. UM, share whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. 670 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: And what you think would be helpful for our listeners 671 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: to know as well. We weren't able to even talk 672 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: about every single facet of domestic violence. So if there's 673 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: something really important that we left out of the conversation, 674 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,439 Speaker 1: please fill us in. Moms Stuff at how stuff works 675 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet 676 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and 677 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you 678 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: right now. Well, I have a letter here from Catherine 679 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: who's writing us about our notorious RBG or Ruth Bittergan's 680 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: but episode that we did a little while ago. She says, 681 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: I work in theatrical costumes and wardrobe in Seattle, but 682 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 1: a few summers ago was the assistant wardrobe supervisor at 683 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 1: the Santa Fe Opera, the largest opera festival in the country, 684 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: one of the largest in the world. Apparently, Justice Ginsburg 685 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: is a huge opera fan and attend the festival every season, 686 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: and the summer I was there was no exception. You 687 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: can always tell when she's going to be in the 688 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: theater that night because lots of security come through the 689 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: backstage areas. Sometimes she will take a backstage tour meet 690 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: the singers, which is how I got to see her 691 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: notorious nous in the flesh. I don't think of myself 692 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: as getting star struck, but what do you say to 693 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: someone who has changed so much about our lives for 694 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,760 Speaker 1: the better? I went with hello, that was good, right, bug. 695 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,479 Speaker 1: We'll keep up the good works, minty, ladies, and thank you, Kate, 696 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: you too well. I've gotta let her hear from Gia 697 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: about our episode, the Grandmother Hypothesis. She writes, Ladies, I 698 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: love a Grandmother Hypothesis episode. I loved it so much. 699 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: I told my nana about it and then brought it 700 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: with me to Sunday dinner so she could listen to it. 701 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: She loved it and insisted I make her a tape 702 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: so she could listen to it again. She has an 703 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: iPod and a CD player, but she wanted a cassette. 704 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: I made her a cassette. You don't argue with Grandma. 705 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: She thinks that the studies you cided explained to her 706 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: need to feed. The part she like the most about 707 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: that episode was when you talked about the Chinese grandmother's 708 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: because that is the way we lived. She also thought 709 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: it was hilarious that people had to take classes to 710 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: learn how to deal with whiney grandchildren. She just needed 711 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: to make the face and hold up a wooden spoon. 712 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 1: She never hit us with it, but it was implied. Also, 713 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: we got biscottie and hugs when we stopped whining. I'm 714 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,800 Speaker 1: thirty two years old. I moved out of the family 715 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: building years ago and moved less than a city block away. 716 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: My grandmother calls me every day to make sure I'm 717 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: not hungry, to see if I need anything, and to 718 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: tell me she loves me. She has a long list 719 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: of those all she makes every day and every Sunday 720 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: her table is loaded like Thanksgiving and we have a 721 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: house full of family. So thank you, Jia. Oh and 722 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,240 Speaker 1: she also writes Caroline that if we're ever in Boston, 723 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: there's a sweet old lady in the heart of the 724 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: North End who would love to feed you till you burst. 725 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: I will take you up on that offer, just whenever 726 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: I'm in Boston. Excellent, All right, thanks Jia, and thanks 727 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: to everybody who's written to us again. Our email address 728 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com and 729 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: to find links to all of our social media as 730 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: well as all of our videos, blogs as well as 731 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: all of our podcasts, including this one, which will have 732 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: all of the sources that we referenced as well as 733 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: links to all of those resources as well. Head on 734 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never told You dot com for 735 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't how 736 00:46:53,920 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Both fas