Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd,
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So,
Speaker 1: as you'll probably know, on this podcast, we cover a
Speaker 1: lot of issues related to harassment of marginalized people online,
Speaker 1: and I think I've alluded to this, but I feel
Speaker 1: very strongly that the harassment of marginalized people, in particularly
Speaker 1: black women and women of color, is basically baked into
Speaker 1: our current social media platforms. You know, it's not a bug,
Speaker 1: it's a feature. And I also think it has a
Speaker 1: lot to do with our current social and political landscape.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the awful stuff that we're
Speaker 1: seeing right now that we've talked about on the podcast,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like school teachers being attacked and smeared
Speaker 1: as groomers, or election workers and poll workers being attacked
Speaker 1: and threatened and accused of vote tampering, or women who
Speaker 1: want to run for a public office being physically threatened
Speaker 1: and docked. I think a lot of this stuff really
Speaker 1: originated with a tax on black women online, and because
Speaker 1: nobody with the power to do anything actually listened or
Speaker 1: took any kind of meaningful action when it was happening
Speaker 1: to those women. Now those kinds of things are happening
Speaker 1: to all of us, and it is not great. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not great for the ability to have a meaningful
Speaker 1: discourse about some of the issues that we actually do
Speaker 1: need to have meaningful conversations about to move forward on.
Speaker 1: It's not great for women and people of color, and
Speaker 1: queer folks and trans folks who just want to be
Speaker 1: involved in civic life or public life by being a teacher,
Speaker 1: running for office, becoming a journalist, working as an election worker,
Speaker 1: or even just expressing themselves politically online. And it's not
Speaker 1: great for our democracy when everybody is not able to
Speaker 1: meaningfully and safely participate in civic life on our biggest
Speaker 1: social media platforms and communication platforms. I would argue that
Speaker 1: we do not have a healthy national democracy like people's
Speaker 1: ability to do that is a tenet of having a
Speaker 1: healthy democracy. So I am fully aware that I sound
Speaker 1: like I am ranting, but I really do firmly believe
Speaker 1: that the harassment of women online is deeply connected to
Speaker 1: the downfall of our democracy. So I have partnered with
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, the team who brought you great podcasts
Speaker 1: like Behind the Bastards with Robert Evans, and Cool People
Speaker 1: who did cool stuff with Margaret Killjoy and many many
Speaker 1: others like too many to name, to make a new
Speaker 1: podcast exploring this very connection, the connection between online violence
Speaker 1: and harassment of black women and are crumbling democracy. The
Speaker 1: podcast is called Internet Hate Machine. You know, queue the
Speaker 1: nine inch nails here. Internet Hate Machine is a podcast
Speaker 1: that will chronicle the stories of women who have been targeted, harassed,
Speaker 1: and attacked online, why and what it means for the
Speaker 1: rest of us, Because I think that there's this misconception
Speaker 1: that when someone is harassed online, it's in visual and
Speaker 1: it absolutely is individual, Like there's individual and personal consequences
Speaker 1: for these women who are attacked, but it's also systemic,
Speaker 1: it's also institutional, and it also creates really big consequences
Speaker 1: for all of us. So you might be wondering, you know,
Speaker 1: if you talk about some of these issues on there
Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet, why are you doing
Speaker 1: a brand new podcast specifically to explore online harassment. And
Speaker 1: the answer to that question is kind of tricky, but
Speaker 1: it really comes down to something that I discussed with
Speaker 1: internet historian Claire Evans on the very first ever episode
Speaker 1: of There are no girls on the Internet, which is
Speaker 1: that women and queer folks and black folks and transfolks
Speaker 1: and all of us we deserve monuments to all the
Speaker 1: amazing stuff that we have done online. Claire Evans basically
Speaker 1: wrote the book on the Internet and women and technology
Speaker 1: called Broadband, where she chronicles women's contributions to the Internet
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. And this fascinating history actually stops
Speaker 1: when gamer gate gains and I asked her why. Here's
Speaker 1: what she said, Yeah, it's it's interesting that you bring
Speaker 1: that up. In researching for this podcast and sort of
Speaker 1: putting together what this podcast will look like. I've been
Speaker 1: sort of really bummed out by the fact that so
Speaker 1: many the episode or topics ideas that I come up
Speaker 1: with are about women being harassed and like how women
Speaker 1: are fighting online. And you know, it is an aspect
Speaker 1: to what it means to show up as a marginalized
Speaker 1: person online. It's just a reality. But it's difficult because
Speaker 1: I feel like I want to build a monument to
Speaker 1: the way that women and other marginalized communities are using
Speaker 1: the Internet, and it sucks that it has to be
Speaker 1: so reactionary. And I guess was there attention in the
Speaker 1: book about that, Like, do you feel a tension between
Speaker 1: wanting to tell that the full scope of the story
Speaker 1: of women online and having to include I mean, I
Speaker 1: know that you include Gamergate, but things like me too,
Speaker 1: you know, things about like women being harassed and fighting
Speaker 1: back or do you want to build a monument to
Speaker 1: just that celebrates and affirms how women have built online
Speaker 1: and it's it is there attention there? Because I've certainly
Speaker 1: felt attention. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I kind of made a choice that I didn't want
Speaker 1: my book to be about about fighting back against the trolls.
Speaker 1: I wanted my book to be, you know, a showcase
Speaker 1: for all the amazing things that people accomplished despite the fact,
Speaker 1: uh you know that they had to fight against the
Speaker 1: trolls or whatever their their circumstances were. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I'm kind of I was able to cop
Speaker 1: out from that a little bit because my book ends
Speaker 1: basically the collapse of the dot com bubble, and I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that harassment didn't exist before then. Certainly did.
Speaker 1: But you know, things like GM regate me to move
Speaker 1: with the sort of larger conversations that are happening as
Speaker 1: like a consequence of systemic sexism in the text industry
Speaker 1: and in the world. Um, you know, sort of became
Speaker 1: much much uglier more recently, and um yeah, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. I have this mantra that is like, don't
Speaker 1: don't fight the darkness, bring the light, and the darkness
Speaker 1: will disappear. And I think that, uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think people need to see how much light there
Speaker 1: really has been and how much how many fascinating, beautiful, interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, dynamic contributions had been made, um and by
Speaker 1: women and you know throughout history, and that it's it's
Speaker 1: not always about having to it's not always about being
Speaker 1: a victim. I don't want to always have that. I
Speaker 1: don't want that to be like a core part of
Speaker 1: the identity of the characters and that I profile in
Speaker 1: the book because they're all they're not you know, like
Speaker 1: they all they're all tough as nails and super interesting
Speaker 1: and hard working and I've done great things in this
Speaker 1: world and maybe people didn't believe in them at the
Speaker 1: right time, and maybe people have forgotten some of their contributions,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't make them any less incredible. So, like Claire,
Speaker 1: I hate the idea of only defining and talking about
Speaker 1: what we have done in opposition to the people who
Speaker 1: hate us. You know, we deserve spaces that center our accomplishments,
Speaker 1: our conversations, and our work, not just the fights and
Speaker 1: the struggles and the traumas. Even though yes, I am
Speaker 1: fully aware that there are no girls on the inner
Speaker 1: sometimes gets into that territory too. It's inevitable. Like our
Speaker 1: last episode was definitely about child abuse and dark stuff
Speaker 1: regarding children on the internet. Yes, it is inevitable, but
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. You know. It is something that
Speaker 1: I have really struggled with and putting this podcast together.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to be the person that
Speaker 1: bums everybody out every week just by talking about dark
Speaker 1: stuff working on the Internet. But I also don't want
Speaker 1: to completely ignore it because that is also part of
Speaker 1: the story. It's it's part of the way that marginalized
Speaker 1: people have to show up online, you know, the good
Speaker 1: and the bed of the Internet. And I want to
Speaker 1: tell the full, honest story. And trust me, there are
Speaker 1: times when I am craving escapism just as much as
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you are. You can probably hear it
Speaker 1: in some of the episodes that we've done. So it
Speaker 1: is something that I struggle with, and honestly, I would
Speaker 1: welcome any feedback about the balance that I'm striving for.
Speaker 1: You know, every people tell me one day you're talking
Speaker 1: about something really dark on the Internet, someone who's been
Speaker 1: harassed or attacked, and the next week you're talking about
Speaker 1: like how much you love the X Files. So yes,
Speaker 1: I get it. And anyway, all of that is to
Speaker 1: say that I am starting Internet Hate Machine, a totally
Speaker 1: new podcast, to really have a place to dig into
Speaker 1: all of that, because, as I said at the top,
Speaker 1: I do believe the consequences are really important for all
Speaker 1: of us. I think the health and safety of our
Speaker 1: Internet and our democracy depends on having honest conversations about
Speaker 1: what's already happened, who was harmed and how, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: what needs to be done about it. So I will
Speaker 1: be digging into all of that on the new podcast,
Speaker 1: Internet Hate Machine, and I hope that you'll check it out.
Speaker 1: Internet Hate Machine drops on October. You can find it
Speaker 1: on all of the normal podcast platforms, Like if you're
Speaker 1: listening to this, you probably know where to find it.
Speaker 1: I think I'm supposed to say Spotify, Apple podcasts, Um,
Speaker 1: you know you although you know where to find a podcast,
Speaker 1: or this is the podcast you found this you know
Speaker 1: where about and I hope that you listen and subscribe.
Speaker 1: And here is the trail were for my new podcast
Speaker 1: with cool Zone Media Internet Hate Machine. So if you
Speaker 1: were online, you're probably familiar with gamer Gate, where a
Speaker 1: lot of men who were supposedly big mad about quote
Speaker 1: ethics and video game journalism harassed women on the internet.
Speaker 1: It was awful, and it rightly got a lot of
Speaker 1: coverage from the tech press, but a lot of people,
Speaker 1: even people who were very online, might not know that
Speaker 1: it was a black women who were attacked by the
Speaker 1: very same people using the very same tactic as gamer
Speaker 1: Gate years earlier. Only when those women spoke up about it,
Speaker 1: the people with the power to do something pretty much
Speaker 1: ignored them. And I'd also be willing to bet that
Speaker 1: even less people know that the kinds of online harassment
Speaker 1: and deceptive accounts that those women were reporting would go
Speaker 1: on to be the very same tactics that a twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen Senate inquiry confirmed were used by Russian assets to
Speaker 1: disrupt the election. So there's a pretty clear through line
Speaker 1: from ignoring Black women when they speak up about the
Speaker 1: harassed and they face on the Internet and pretty important
Speaker 1: stuff like I don't know the security of our elections,
Speaker 1: So what if someone with the power to do something
Speaker 1: had just listened to black women when they reported what
Speaker 1: was going on years earlier. I'm Bridget Todd, and I
Speaker 1: make podcasts about the Internet, specifically the way that women,
Speaker 1: people of color, LGBTQ, folks, and other marginalized identities show
Speaker 1: up to do cool stuff on the Internet. But I
Speaker 1: am sad the same that. As true as it is
Speaker 1: that traditionally marginalized people do a lot of the coolest
Speaker 1: stuff online, it's also true that those same people are
Speaker 1: targeted online and really scary ways, and when it happens,
Speaker 1: it can feel like it just goes overlooked. We don't
Speaker 1: really get the opportunity to learn from it or take
Speaker 1: anything away from it, and as the Internet often does,
Speaker 1: everyone just moves on. And I don't like that. So
Speaker 1: on my new podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: right that wrong. We'll be telling the stories of women
Speaker 1: who were harassed online, how it happened, why it happened,
Speaker 1: and what it all means for the rest of us
Speaker 1: because these kinds of attacks threaten our democracy, They keep
Speaker 1: marginalized people from doing things like running for office or
Speaker 1: just participating in civic and public life, and they threaten
Speaker 1: our ability to have meaningful discourse and make any progress
Speaker 1: on some of the big issues facing us today. And
Speaker 1: what's worse, this kind of thing has been steadily creeping
Speaker 1: from the computer screen into our wider political and social landscape.
Speaker 1: On the new podcast Internet Hate Machine, I'll be charting
Speaker 1: how the harassment and abuse of women and other traditionally
Speaker 1: marginalized people online has led us to our current political
Speaker 1: health scape and what we can do about it. Listen
Speaker 1: to Internet Hate Machine on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast