1
00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:06,120
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

2
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd,

3
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So,

4
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 1: as you'll probably know, on this podcast, we cover a

5
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,200
Speaker 1: lot of issues related to harassment of marginalized people online,

6
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 1: and I think I've alluded to this, but I feel

7
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 1: very strongly that the harassment of marginalized people, in particularly

8
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 1: black women and women of color, is basically baked into

9
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: our current social media platforms. You know, it's not a bug,

10
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: it's a feature. And I also think it has a

11
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 1: lot to do with our current social and political landscape.

12
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,319
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the awful stuff that we're

13
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: seeing right now that we've talked about on the podcast,

14
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,720
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like school teachers being attacked and smeared

15
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: as groomers, or election workers and poll workers being attacked

16
00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 1: and threatened and accused of vote tampering, or women who

17
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: want to run for a public office being physically threatened

18
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,760
Speaker 1: and docked. I think a lot of this stuff really

19
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 1: originated with a tax on black women online, and because

20
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 1: nobody with the power to do anything actually listened or

21
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: took any kind of meaningful action when it was happening

22
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,959
Speaker 1: to those women. Now those kinds of things are happening

23
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: to all of us, and it is not great. You know.

24
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: It's not great for the ability to have a meaningful

25
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 1: discourse about some of the issues that we actually do

26
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,040
Speaker 1: need to have meaningful conversations about to move forward on.

27
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: It's not great for women and people of color, and

28
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,399
Speaker 1: queer folks and trans folks who just want to be

29
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 1: involved in civic life or public life by being a teacher,

30
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,199
Speaker 1: running for office, becoming a journalist, working as an election worker,

31
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: or even just expressing themselves politically online. And it's not

32
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 1: great for our democracy when everybody is not able to

33
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 1: meaningfully and safely participate in civic life on our biggest

34
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: social media platforms and communication platforms. I would argue that

35
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 1: we do not have a healthy national democracy like people's

36
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 1: ability to do that is a tenet of having a

37
00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 1: healthy democracy. So I am fully aware that I sound

38
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 1: like I am ranting, but I really do firmly believe

39
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,000
Speaker 1: that the harassment of women online is deeply connected to

40
00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,960
Speaker 1: the downfall of our democracy. So I have partnered with

41
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, the team who brought you great podcasts

42
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: like Behind the Bastards with Robert Evans, and Cool People

43
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 1: who did cool stuff with Margaret Killjoy and many many

44
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 1: others like too many to name, to make a new

45
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 1: podcast exploring this very connection, the connection between online violence

46
00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 1: and harassment of black women and are crumbling democracy. The

47
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,919
Speaker 1: podcast is called Internet Hate Machine. You know, queue the

48
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,440
Speaker 1: nine inch nails here. Internet Hate Machine is a podcast

49
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 1: that will chronicle the stories of women who have been targeted, harassed,

50
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: and attacked online, why and what it means for the

51
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,080
Speaker 1: rest of us, Because I think that there's this misconception

52
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 1: that when someone is harassed online, it's in visual and

53
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 1: it absolutely is individual, Like there's individual and personal consequences

54
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 1: for these women who are attacked, but it's also systemic,

55
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,639
Speaker 1: it's also institutional, and it also creates really big consequences

56
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 1: for all of us. So you might be wondering, you know,

57
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 1: if you talk about some of these issues on there

58
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 1: are no girls on the Internet, why are you doing

59
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,640
Speaker 1: a brand new podcast specifically to explore online harassment. And

60
00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,640
Speaker 1: the answer to that question is kind of tricky, but

61
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 1: it really comes down to something that I discussed with

62
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,560
Speaker 1: internet historian Claire Evans on the very first ever episode

63
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 1: of There are no girls on the Internet, which is

64
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: that women and queer folks and black folks and transfolks

65
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,200
Speaker 1: and all of us we deserve monuments to all the

66
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: amazing stuff that we have done online. Claire Evans basically

67
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: wrote the book on the Internet and women and technology

68
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: called Broadband, where she chronicles women's contributions to the Internet

69
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. And this fascinating history actually stops

70
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: when gamer gate gains and I asked her why. Here's

71
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: what she said, Yeah, it's it's interesting that you bring

72
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 1: that up. In researching for this podcast and sort of

73
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,640
Speaker 1: putting together what this podcast will look like. I've been

74
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 1: sort of really bummed out by the fact that so

75
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 1: many the episode or topics ideas that I come up

76
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 1: with are about women being harassed and like how women

77
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: are fighting online. And you know, it is an aspect

78
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,600
Speaker 1: to what it means to show up as a marginalized

79
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,640
Speaker 1: person online. It's just a reality. But it's difficult because

80
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: I feel like I want to build a monument to

81
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: the way that women and other marginalized communities are using

82
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 1: the Internet, and it sucks that it has to be

83
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 1: so reactionary. And I guess was there attention in the

84
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,160
Speaker 1: book about that, Like, do you feel a tension between

85
00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 1: wanting to tell that the full scope of the story

86
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,120
Speaker 1: of women online and having to include I mean, I

87
00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,799
Speaker 1: know that you include Gamergate, but things like me too,

88
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,679
Speaker 1: you know, things about like women being harassed and fighting

89
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 1: back or do you want to build a monument to

90
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 1: just that celebrates and affirms how women have built online

91
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: and it's it is there attention there? Because I've certainly

92
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: felt attention. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I mean,

93
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,320
Speaker 1: I kind of made a choice that I didn't want

94
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: my book to be about about fighting back against the trolls.

95
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,600
Speaker 1: I wanted my book to be, you know, a showcase

96
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 1: for all the amazing things that people accomplished despite the fact,

97
00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:24,680
Speaker 1: uh you know that they had to fight against the

98
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 1: trolls or whatever their their circumstances were. Um, you know,

99
00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,560
Speaker 1: I think I'm kind of I was able to cop

100
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 1: out from that a little bit because my book ends

101
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,360
Speaker 1: basically the collapse of the dot com bubble, and I'm

102
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 1: not saying that harassment didn't exist before then. Certainly did.

103
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 1: But you know, things like GM regate me to move

104
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 1: with the sort of larger conversations that are happening as

105
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,640
Speaker 1: like a consequence of systemic sexism in the text industry

106
00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 1: and in the world. Um, you know, sort of became

107
00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,720
Speaker 1: much much uglier more recently, and um yeah, but I

108
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,239
Speaker 1: don't know. I have this mantra that is like, don't

109
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 1: don't fight the darkness, bring the light, and the darkness

110
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,719
Speaker 1: will disappear. And I think that, uh, I don't know.

111
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 1: I think people need to see how much light there

112
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,839
Speaker 1: really has been and how much how many fascinating, beautiful, interesting,

113
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, dynamic contributions had been made, um and by

114
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,640
Speaker 1: women and you know throughout history, and that it's it's

115
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,960
Speaker 1: not always about having to it's not always about being

116
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,040
Speaker 1: a victim. I don't want to always have that. I

117
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: don't want that to be like a core part of

118
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,040
Speaker 1: the identity of the characters and that I profile in

119
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 1: the book because they're all they're not you know, like

120
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 1: they all they're all tough as nails and super interesting

121
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,760
Speaker 1: and hard working and I've done great things in this

122
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: world and maybe people didn't believe in them at the

123
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240
Speaker 1: right time, and maybe people have forgotten some of their contributions,

124
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,880
Speaker 1: but that doesn't make them any less incredible. So, like Claire,

125
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,080
Speaker 1: I hate the idea of only defining and talking about

126
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,320
Speaker 1: what we have done in opposition to the people who

127
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 1: hate us. You know, we deserve spaces that center our accomplishments,

128
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,880
Speaker 1: our conversations, and our work, not just the fights and

129
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,040
Speaker 1: the struggles and the traumas. Even though yes, I am

130
00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 1: fully aware that there are no girls on the inner

131
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,600
Speaker 1: sometimes gets into that territory too. It's inevitable. Like our

132
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,040
Speaker 1: last episode was definitely about child abuse and dark stuff

133
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 1: regarding children on the internet. Yes, it is inevitable, but

134
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. You know. It is something that

135
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: I have really struggled with and putting this podcast together.

136
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to be the person that

137
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: bums everybody out every week just by talking about dark

138
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 1: stuff working on the Internet. But I also don't want

139
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,120
Speaker 1: to completely ignore it because that is also part of

140
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 1: the story. It's it's part of the way that marginalized

141
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 1: people have to show up online, you know, the good

142
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: and the bed of the Internet. And I want to

143
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: tell the full, honest story. And trust me, there are

144
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 1: times when I am craving escapism just as much as

145
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you are. You can probably hear it

146
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: in some of the episodes that we've done. So it

147
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 1: is something that I struggle with, and honestly, I would

148
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,960
Speaker 1: welcome any feedback about the balance that I'm striving for.

149
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: You know, every people tell me one day you're talking

150
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,080
Speaker 1: about something really dark on the Internet, someone who's been

151
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 1: harassed or attacked, and the next week you're talking about

152
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,520
Speaker 1: like how much you love the X Files. So yes,

153
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 1: I get it. And anyway, all of that is to

154
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: say that I am starting Internet Hate Machine, a totally

155
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 1: new podcast, to really have a place to dig into

156
00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 1: all of that, because, as I said at the top,

157
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,160
Speaker 1: I do believe the consequences are really important for all

158
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 1: of us. I think the health and safety of our

159
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,080
Speaker 1: Internet and our democracy depends on having honest conversations about

160
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 1: what's already happened, who was harmed and how, and most importantly,

161
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: what needs to be done about it. So I will

162
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 1: be digging into all of that on the new podcast,

163
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,320
Speaker 1: Internet Hate Machine, and I hope that you'll check it out.

164
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: Internet Hate Machine drops on October. You can find it

165
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,079
Speaker 1: on all of the normal podcast platforms, Like if you're

166
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,839
Speaker 1: listening to this, you probably know where to find it.

167
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 1: I think I'm supposed to say Spotify, Apple podcasts, Um,

168
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:54,960
Speaker 1: you know you although you know where to find a podcast,

169
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 1: or this is the podcast you found this you know

170
00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,559
Speaker 1: where about and I hope that you listen and subscribe.

171
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 1: And here is the trail were for my new podcast

172
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 1: with cool Zone Media Internet Hate Machine. So if you

173
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 1: were online, you're probably familiar with gamer Gate, where a

174
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,880
Speaker 1: lot of men who were supposedly big mad about quote

175
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 1: ethics and video game journalism harassed women on the internet.

176
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: It was awful, and it rightly got a lot of

177
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: coverage from the tech press, but a lot of people,

178
00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 1: even people who were very online, might not know that

179
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,360
Speaker 1: it was a black women who were attacked by the

180
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 1: very same people using the very same tactic as gamer

181
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,200
Speaker 1: Gate years earlier. Only when those women spoke up about it,

182
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 1: the people with the power to do something pretty much

183
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: ignored them. And I'd also be willing to bet that

184
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,680
Speaker 1: even less people know that the kinds of online harassment

185
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,560
Speaker 1: and deceptive accounts that those women were reporting would go

186
00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 1: on to be the very same tactics that a twenty

187
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,160
Speaker 1: nineteen Senate inquiry confirmed were used by Russian assets to

188
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,440
Speaker 1: disrupt the election. So there's a pretty clear through line

189
00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,599
Speaker 1: from ignoring Black women when they speak up about the

190
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,880
Speaker 1: harassed and they face on the Internet and pretty important

191
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,280
Speaker 1: stuff like I don't know the security of our elections,

192
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,040
Speaker 1: So what if someone with the power to do something

193
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 1: had just listened to black women when they reported what

194
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 1: was going on years earlier. I'm Bridget Todd, and I

195
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 1: make podcasts about the Internet, specifically the way that women,

196
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 1: people of color, LGBTQ, folks, and other marginalized identities show

197
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,720
Speaker 1: up to do cool stuff on the Internet. But I

198
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,800
Speaker 1: am sad the same that. As true as it is

199
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,640
Speaker 1: that traditionally marginalized people do a lot of the coolest

200
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,559
Speaker 1: stuff online, it's also true that those same people are

201
00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,000
Speaker 1: targeted online and really scary ways, and when it happens,

202
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,560
Speaker 1: it can feel like it just goes overlooked. We don't

203
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,559
Speaker 1: really get the opportunity to learn from it or take

204
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: anything away from it, and as the Internet often does,

205
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 1: everyone just moves on. And I don't like that. So

206
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 1: on my new podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to

207
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,200
Speaker 1: right that wrong. We'll be telling the stories of women

208
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,200
Speaker 1: who were harassed online, how it happened, why it happened,

209
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:56,839
Speaker 1: and what it all means for the rest of us

210
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,400
Speaker 1: because these kinds of attacks threaten our democracy, They keep

211
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,080
Speaker 1: marginalized people from doing things like running for office or

212
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,959
Speaker 1: just participating in civic and public life, and they threaten

213
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,840
Speaker 1: our ability to have meaningful discourse and make any progress

214
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,480
Speaker 1: on some of the big issues facing us today. And

215
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 1: what's worse, this kind of thing has been steadily creeping

216
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 1: from the computer screen into our wider political and social landscape.

217
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 1: On the new podcast Internet Hate Machine, I'll be charting

218
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 1: how the harassment and abuse of women and other traditionally

219
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: marginalized people online has led us to our current political

220
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 1: health scape and what we can do about it. Listen

221
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,680
Speaker 1: to Internet Hate Machine on the I Heart Radio app,

222
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast