WEBVTT - Mommy the Galapagos Tortoise 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.720 Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:14.400 of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.639 and today on the show we have a special episode 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.560 because I get to talk to someone from a zoo. Now, 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.439 this happens to be a human being, so we will 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.560 be able to have a nice conversation. There's some really 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.240 exciting news coming out from the Philadelphia Zoo and I 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.080 am very pleased to have with me today Lauren Augustine, 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.280 who is the director of Herpetology at the Philadelphia Zoo. Lauren, 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:40.320 welcome to the show. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.720 Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:43.760 to talk to you guys today. 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.800 I am. I'm super excited about this news. I don't 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.200 know if my listeners have heard it. But first, Lauren, 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:52.080 tell us just a little bit about yourself. What's your 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.560 role at the zoo and what kinds of animals do 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:55.040 you work with? 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.560 From the director of her photology, her patology is a 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.160 study of the creepy crawley so reptiles and amphibians, of course, 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.319 and so my job is to oversee the collection here 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.960 at the zoo, their animal care, the staff that take 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.160 care of them, and then are conservation programs that are 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.160 linked to those very special species. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.440 I think this is something that's key when it comes 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.440 to zoos because there's so like as a visitor, you 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.959 get to see the animals and maybe you get to 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.839 see some of the presentations that happen at the zoo, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.600 but there's a lot of stuff that's happening behind the scenes, 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.120 especially when it comes to conservation. So in addition to 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.680 actually taking care of the individuals at the zoo, taking 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:40.240 care of their health, their diet, there's also larger conservation efforts. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:42.440 So you may have a species of animals that is 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.479 not doing so well in the wild. I imagine this 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.680 is pretty common in herpetology, especially with amphibians, and so 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.720 you also have a lot of efforts to actually help 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.160 animals that are out in the wild or preserve species 0:01:58.200 --> 0:01:59.000 that are endangered. 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:00.000 Yeah. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:01.960 Yeah, we do that in a lot of different ways. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.720 We're really fortunate in her petology we get a large 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.400 diversity of species and so they come with a lot 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.040 of different needs. Sometimes we can meet those needs for 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.320 the species at our institution or through the collaboration with 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.320 other institutions, but a lot of times we are looking 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.000 at managing those conservation efforts in the field with collaborators 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.600 or directly through leading research projects, and so we get 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.520 a lot of different avenues to contribute to species conservation 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.720 through a modern zoo that takes a conservation first approach. 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.160 Yeah, that's fantastic. So let's get right into the exciting 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:41.359 news you have. Mommy, the Galapagis tortoise has an announcement 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.440 to make. Lauren will be the one to transmit that announcement. 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:47.399 Yeah, we're very excited. 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.960 Mommy's been at the zoo since nineteen thirty two and recently, Yeah, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.600 we are proud to announce that she is a mommy. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:03:00.560 Mommy has sixteen babies that hatched earlier this year from 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.560 two different clutches or groups of eggs that she laid 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:04.240 last winter. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.040 That's incredible. How old is mommy? 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.320 So we estimate mommies around ninety seven years old, but 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.280 we don't know. She came right in nineteen thirty two, 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.560 so she's been at the zoo a very long time. 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:16.639 Ninety two years. 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.240 Yeah, that's so she's at least ninety two years old, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.720 if not, who knows a decade old? 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.919 Yeah, yeah, undready. Yeah, but is this a. 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.680 So, is this a miracle Galapago's tortoise or is this 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.639 something that Galapagos tortoises can do in the wild give 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.040 birth at such an old age. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.640 This is something they can do in the wild, give 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.040 birth to such an old age. What's so amazing about 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:42.000 Mommy's story is that this is her first time. So 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.480 the fact that she hasn't reproduced until this age is 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.360 what's so incredible, and that it went so successfully really 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.120 is a testament to the long term care of that animal. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.040 Right She's been in our in our care for over 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.840 ninety years, and so it's just a really great story 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:58.680 for Philadelphia. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.840 That's fantastic. And I would assume this isn't the first 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:07.760 time that you guys have tried having her breed. It's 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.560 just this is the first time she's actually produced a 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:11.400 clutch of eggs. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.440 So with Mommy, the interesting story for Galopagos tortuses in 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.680 general is that in the early nineties we did some 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.200 genetics work to identify the different species from different islands, 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.400 and so when we found out that Mommy was a 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.440 Western Santa Cruz Galopagos tortoise, we went through the process 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.560 working with our association to bring in a mail for her. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:33.880 So we wanted to make sure we are breeding and 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.479 maintain that genetic lineage for that island species. And so 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.400 we had to get a Braso here who came from 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.960 the Riverbank Zoo to pair with her because he is 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.800 also a western Santa Cruise Island Galopagos tortoise. And so 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.080 that is the process of working collaboratively to maintain those 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.360 those really important genetics. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.640 Right, because you can't you can't just take sort of 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:01.760 there's a bunch of different populations of Galapagos tortoises, and 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:06.720 so if you got a different Galapagos tortoise, they might 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.800 be able to set successfully mate, but then you don't 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:15.760 have that same wild lineage that you're looking to preserve, right, correct, 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.120 So that is so exciting. So how often do Galapagos 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.880 tortoises mate like, both in the wild and also in captivity. 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.440 So here at the zoo, because we are in a 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.159 temperate climate, right, it gets colder in the winter, we 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.000 have to bring the tortoises in. So every winter we 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.680 actually separate the male of braso from the females just 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.200 because of space and for a lot of other reasons. 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.920 So every spring we reintroduce them together, and so there 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.280 is breeding every year, the same thing in the wild. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.720 As they come across each other in the wild and 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.200 through territories during breeding season, they will breed, so it's. 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:53.000 An annual event. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.120 And then mommy laid actually three clutches of eggs her 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.440 first year that she produced eggs for us since meeting 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.279 a braso, and so they will lay eggs every year also, 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.440 So she did lay three clutches her first year, and 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.960 then two clutches this past year that resulted in these 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:08.920 sixteen babies. 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.560 It's because from my understanding of Galapago's tortoises is that 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.600 they it is tricky to get them to actually produce offspring, 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:24.719 particularly in captivity. Is it that the because it sounds 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.120 like the mating itself happens with some frequency, but actually 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.960 producing a clutch of eggs that are successful seems more rare. 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.480 There are so many factors that go into the successful 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.960 reproduction of a species in human care, and especially with 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.440 reptiles and amphibians. So sorry, I'm going to call out 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.599 that my tax are the best all the time, but 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.920 we have so many things that influence the success of 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.039 that reproduction, and it's not just one thing, so they're 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:54.919 all playing off of each other and it can be 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.680 very complex. So we have to consider the lifespan of 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.919 the individual, their age at the time of reduction, and 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.960 then their care, the UV light that they've been provided, 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.800 their nutritional status, their health status in general. All of 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.480 this plays into success. Also their stress levels, right, so 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.200 if they can't if they are nutritionally deficient in some way, 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.960 their eggs might not be fit to hatch. If they're not, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.800 if they're overly stressed, they might hold onto those eggs 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.080 and and affect the hatch rate by not laying them 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.320 right away, or even the developmental rates. So there's so 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.880 many facets to this, which is why this is so impressive, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.680 because it shows that Mommy's care over the decades has 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.960 been very good, that her stress levels are likely pretty low. 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.200 I mean, all animals encounter stress, right, but we have 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.920 this beautiful outdoor yard. We were able to give her 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.440 in a braso the ability to interact should they choose, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.680 but her the ability to get away from those interactions 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:48.480 if she wants to. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.320 Appropriates every important important in every relationship. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.120 Yes, exactly, choice alone time. Choice. Yeah. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.520 So just the fact that she has appropriate nesting sites 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.360 that she likes them as well. You know, we as 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.360 humans can say, oh, this is great nesting for a 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.600 Galapagos tortoise, but she might not agree. So knowing that 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.320 we were able to provide her with those things that 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.800 resulted in the success yeats, it's definitely a complicated process. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.800 And then of course the incubation of the eggs is 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.840 just adds on to it. And now the rearing of 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.160 the offspring. I mean nothing about this is simple. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.720 So how do Galapagos tortoises in the wild incubate their eggs? 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.040 And is there a difference between the wild because of 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.640 course you're not on that Galapagos islands, so you can't 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.720 completely recreate those conditions. So then how do you do 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.679 it at the zooke compared to wild incubation? 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.720 Great question. And so these guys are whole nesters. So 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.960 they'll dig a hole and they'll deposit a clutch of 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.320 eggs or a group of eggs into the hole and 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.520 then they'll bury it back up and then they're done. 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.120 The eggs will incubate in the ground in the wild. 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.000 At a zoological institution, in general, we will dig up 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.920 the eggs and artificially incubate them. So one of the 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.680 major reasons we do that for galopagos tortoises is that 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.840 they have temperature sex determination, and so the temperature that 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.800 the eggs are incubated will determine the sex of the offspring. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.599 So this is a really important part of their biology 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.520 that helps us as population managers. Now I can control 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.400 the number of males and the number of females I'm 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.520 putting into the population, which is an amazing asset when 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:27.120 you have a smaller population in a zoological institutions. And 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.559 so we do retrieve those eggs, but it also gives 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.880 us the opportunity to track their development and see where 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.320 and if we have challenges, what the problem or the cause. 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:37.760 Of those challenges might be for next time. 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.920 So we do need to track very carefully the environment 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.439 that we give these eggs. So temperature and humidity are 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.600 two key factors that we monitor very closely when incubating eggs. 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.600 But then we're able to track through the four month incubation. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.960 It was a very long incubation the development of these eggs. 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.640 You know, try to troubleshoot any challenges and then wait 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.720 for these babies to emerge what was in a very 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:01.640 exciting moment. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.800 So when like little baby birds are born, they will 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.440 kind of knock their way out of the egg with 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.439 their little they got a little ridge on their beak 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.400 and egg tooth. How hard is it for these little 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.320 baby Globuka's tortoises to get out? 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.080 They also have an egg tooth. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.800 So reptiles have an egg tooth, yep, and they use 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.680 that to break through their eggshell. Yeah, and these tortoises, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.120 they'll we call it pipping the first moment that they 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.560 break through the egg shell and then that's a yeah, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.160 it's so cute. And then they did just stay in 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.280 the egg for a couple almost a week before they 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:36.439 fully emerge and hatch. 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:37.559 Yeah, it's really cute. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.560 It's a lot of work. I don't blame them, So 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.120 you know, you gotta take a breather after you're hacking 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.960 your way out of an egg. This is something that 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.000 I have talked about on the show a little bit, 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.480 which is the as I get a question a lot 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.079 from especially women, which is like it seems really silly 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:00.560 as placental mammals that we carry pregnancies and it's a 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.920 huge headache, and I very much sympathize with this, So 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.760 then why don't we as humans just lay eggs like 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.160 so many other animals do? And I think it's a 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:16.679 really interesting thing you bring up with the things like 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:21.680 changes in temperature and humidity, how much the environment impacts 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:26.200 the eggs. So one kind of cool thing that plus 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.320 intal animals did was that we create like a kind 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:36.479 of miniature environment for our offspring, which we can control. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.000 As warm blooded animals, we control the temperature just like 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.920 you kind of do with incubating these eggs. I just 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:44.640 find that kind of this is kind of a cool 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.400 example of why there is a bit of a trade 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.120 off the eggs. Yes, they can usually have more offspring 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:55.720 at once. Maybe Galapaco's tortoises don't have as many offspring 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.880 at one time, but there are plenty of egg laying 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.960 animals that have so many offsering all at once. But 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.840 you can't control that environment as well, and so if 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.800 you have if you're a species of animal that likes 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.240 to invest a lot into one offspring, laying an egg 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.240 usually doesn't make as much sense or comes with more 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:24.240 risks when you're versus having the baby born live. So 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.000 that's just kind of a cool kind of application of 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:36.439 some evolutionary biology ideas. But in terms of the rarity 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.760 of Galapagos tortoises, why is it so difficult to breed 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.720 them and why are they relatively rare in the wild 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:45.240 as well. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.760 Glapa ghost tortoises are critically endangered species, and they're island species, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.679 and so it's really important to remember when you're an 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.800 island species that your populations are innately at a higher 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:02.760 level of threat because anything, a storm could come and 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.600 wipe out your population. The biggest threats usually to these 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.680 island species are human human impacts such as you know, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.480 habitat degradation, but also invasive species. And so because they 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.040 have such a limited range and they're naturally smaller populations, 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.840 they are at a high risk of extinction, and so 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.080 that's why they are critically endangered. They are challenging to breed, 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.520 I think in the United States because we have to 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.120 move them around and they are very large animals, and 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.240 we have to get the right animals together in the 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.359 right conditions. You know, reptiles are very seasonally driven their reproduction, 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.400 and so being able to provide them the right habitats, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.080 the right social dynamics, and the right, care is not 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.440 always very simple, so and moving you know, Brazos almost 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.480 four hundred pounds, moving him to Philadelphia was not an 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.200 easy feat. So that was probably the hardest part of 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:59.680 breeding these guys, to be honest. But they are a 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.480 very long lived species, which gives us a long opportunity 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.120 for each individual to get their genetics represented. So that 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.960 is one of the fortunate parts of the Galopagos toward 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:09.079 us and their biology. 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.800 That is the that is so interesting to me. How 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.600 I mean, I think we kind of as humans, we 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.880 tend to think about things in terms of our own lives, right, 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.480 so where we go through menopause and we know are 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.880 no longer fertile when we're seniors, so then to see 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.920 an animal like this, it just seems so strange to us. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.800 But there's not necessarily our perspective, right of us going 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.240 through like having a long live span, but then having 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.200 a long chunk of our live span where we're not 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:44.600 fertilely reproductive is not necessarily the main blueprint for a 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.040 lot of animals. A lot of animals have really short 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.760 life spans and they're fertile for most of that lifespan. 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.920 The kind of the species that we do see in 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.760 the wild that have long life spans like we do, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.800 and a long chunk of that lifespan where we're not 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:05.840 usually is another social species. So you know, for instance, elephants, Right, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.960 so you have a lot of matriarchs there that may 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.480 no longer be producing offspring, but they're helping out the 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.400 youngsters who don't know what they're doing. So it's so 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.840 the fact that this tortoise is able to it has 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.960 such a long lifespan, but it also remains fertile. It's 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.160 not that it is weird. It's that we have a 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:30.000 specific kind of interesting biological clock which is not shared 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:35.640 by all animals on earth, particularly not necessarily by reptiles. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.359 Yeah, what's really fascinating. They've done some research on crocodiles 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.080 and what helps the longevity of their fertility is that 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.000 they can shut their systems down, so we won't see 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:50.600 the same hormone spikes seasonally in a singly housed female 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.000 crocodile that we will see in a crocodile that's set 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.200 up with a male and that is reproducing. They can 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.840 shut their systems down, which can make them last longer. Right, 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.120 So for example, well, mommy didn't lay eggs for twenty years, right, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.680 she didn't go through the process her being paired up 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.480 with a braso. The social interactions that is what started 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.560 her cycling again and got her laying eggs and moving forward. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.640 So I think that's a really interesting part of it, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.600 like an ectotherms biology, that these animals can kind of 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.520 turn it off and turn it on, which helps it 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.360 be a little bit of a longer lifespan. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.080 That is amazing. I mean, it's and it's something that 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.720 is coming from like a social cueue, which is so 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.600 interesting where you can have these hormones kind of like 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:39.440 activated because she sees a male, not because she's there's 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.880 something in the water or her diet has changed necessarily, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:48.360 although diet changes can also affect fertility for sure. But yeah, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.920 I mean, I another reason to be jealous of reptile 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.160 is that the control they have over their production. But 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.680 you do you see that in other species. You see 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:04.080 that actually in case gurus have some control over their 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.080 reproduction that you know. Sometimes it's like, you know, I'm 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.000 just not feeling so I'm going to freeze the development 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.760 of this embryo until I feel like things are cool 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.080 for me to have a baby, which is, you know, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.879 if only, if only, we could be like that. But 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.719 that's that's so interesting. So that sounds like, given that 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:28.560 they are so their reproductive cycle, it's not like human 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.600 women where you know, during our reproductive years, unless we 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.959 use medical intervention, medication, we just have to have our 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:42.240 periods no matter what. They have some that they're able 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.120 to shut that off. So that seems like that could 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.960 be another potential challenge thought at a zoo because they 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.800 if they're not sensing, if they're not you know, getting 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.760 sort of the cues that this is a good time 0:17:55.880 --> 0:18:01.160 to be reproductively active, they may not be reproductively active. 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.600 Are are there kind of ways like are there challenges 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.400 to actually like kind of convince her that, like, hey, 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.560 now's a good time to mate or to be reproductively active. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.399 I actually think this is a totally fascinating part of 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.000 our jobs is that we really don't know a lot 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.760 about the social behavior of reptiles, and we're learning a 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.320 lot thanks to zoological institutions, and so some of the 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.240 research I've been doing on turtle breeding in general suggests 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:32.199 that the over attention of a male, so the males 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.640 don't just go breathe with the female one time, right. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.240 They are very insistent and often there's a huge ritual 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.640 of nudging and mounting and circling that takes place as 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.920 courtship prior to copulation. And then this constant attention from 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.760 the males is anecdotally linked in some species to the 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.879 reproductive output of a female, so not just sparking the 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.679 female to cycle, but actually the outcome of those eggs. 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.720 And so that's a really interesting part of our jobs 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.200 because a lot of people would see that also as stressful. 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.240 Right, this male is hounding this female. In the wild, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:06.080 he would come through. 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.639 Her territory, breathe with her and then move on. But 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.920 in a zoo, maybe she's his only potential mate. They're 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.600 sharing a habitat and a territory, and so he's constantly 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.240 breeding and reproducing with her, and so there's that stress aspect, 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:21.760 but also the aspect of that Potentially that's what is 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.160 going to lead to success. And so I think one 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.280 of the things that we're very fortunate about here in 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.000 Philly is that we have this large outdoor yard. We 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.080 have two go up and goos females as well as 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.879 two aldabra females. In with a braso so that he 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.760 can share his attention. When we did the first introductions, 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.359 we did observe them and do a behavioral ethogram, So 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.320 we had staff watching and observing a braso where was 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:46.960 he spending his time because we were very concerned of 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.200 mommy and mommy getting stressed out at her older age, 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.760 and Abraso did selectively choose to spend most of his 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.240 time breeding with mommy, but he did spread out the 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.240 love and we didn't see a lot of signs of 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:04.119 stress or indicators that we would want to separate those animals. 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.040 And so a lot of like really interesting social behavior 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.359 stuff that we really are just now on the cusp 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.320 of learning and reptiles is really fascinating. 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.280 I mean, that seems to be quite like that's the 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.280 over many many years, like hundreds of years of having zoos, 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.600 that seems to be one of the major shifts in 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.959 terms of modern zoos, which is understanding that the behaviors 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.560 of animals in captivity. You can't just copy and paste 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.920 animals from the wild, put them in captivity and then 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.280 have their behaviors all be the same. Like a lot 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:42.080 of misunderstandings about animal behavior comes from studying animals in 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:46.360 captivity because it's so much easier to study animals in captivity, 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:50.840 and it's I'm completely for researching animals in captivity because 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.000 it's a great opportunity for conservation and understanding animal behavior. 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.760 But what the mistakes that we used to make were 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:05.000 assuming that you know, you can have like a pack 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.280 animal or a migratory animal, or or or you know, 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.919 a tortoise with a really long lifespan and a large 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.240 area and then see the exact same behaviors in the 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.920 zoo that you would see in the wild. So I 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:24.320 think it is I think it's really important to know that, 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.320 like you know, today, like in zoo's I think there's 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.960 a lot more awareness of like, all right, we even 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:35.040 if we can't completely recreate the Galapagos Island within the zoo, 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.000 having the awareness of, like, okay, what are these sorts 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:43.639 of stressors that these animals might feel, particularly with social animals, 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.840 where you know, might you might see aggression in social 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:49.560 animals that are usually a lot more chill in the 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.960 wild when they don't have time alone from each other. 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:56.080 And so it's from my perspective, it seems like we've 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:01.760 gone from maybe misunder standing these things many many years 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:07.359 ago to now caretakers and researchers in zoos being really 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.879 aware of, Okay, we need to create an environment that 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.920 is not stressful for this animal and then to understand 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:18.719 why there might be conflicts among species in zoos. And 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.960 I think because I think when people think about reptiles, 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.440