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Speaker 1: On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly with March Madness

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Speaker 1: upon us. Sports Illustrated, It's Kevin Sweeney explains why Tiny

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Speaker 1: cop in State played almost all of its games away

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Speaker 1: from home this season. It's the story of a never

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Speaker 1: ending season long road trip that included four hundred mile

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Speaker 1: bus rides, fifty point losses, and someone forgetting to pack

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Speaker 1: their jerseys. And later, long time former Sports Illustrated stafford

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Speaker 1: Grant Wall joins me to discuss how Russia's invasion of

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Speaker 1: Ukraine has impacted soccer. But first our report on the coverage, conversations,

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Speaker 1: and controversy surrounding University of Pennsylvania transgender swimmer Leah Thomas.

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Speaker 1: It's March sixteen. I'm your host, John Gonzalez from Sports

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Speaker 1: Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is Sports Illustrated Weekly

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Speaker 1: and rock in the one yard freestyle should be a

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Speaker 1: very fast meet with a fenny champions swinning in lane six.

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Speaker 1: In February, Leah Thomas of the University of Pennsylvania dominated

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Speaker 1: the Ivy League Swimming Championships, winning four titles, including the

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Speaker 1: hundred yard freestyle. Lea won a lot, she said, pool records.

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Speaker 1: She said, a couple of meat records. She was very,

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Speaker 1: very strong in the pool, winning the one hundred, the

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Speaker 1: two hundred, and the five hundred freestyle races. This is

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Speaker 1: Robert Sanchez, the journalist who wrote our cover story about

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Speaker 1: Leah Thomas and spend time with her to discuss her

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Speaker 1: extraordinary journey as a transgender swimmer and the ensuing controversy

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Speaker 1: that's been covered by the sports and news media alike.

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Speaker 1: A swimmer for the University of Pennsylvania is getting a

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Speaker 1: lot of pushback. Twenty two year old Leah Thomas is

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Speaker 1: transgendered by controversy surrounding University of Pennsylvania transgender swimmer Leah Thomas,

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Speaker 1: who was now breaking women's write. In a new article,

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated calls the college senior the most controversial athlete

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Speaker 1: in America. Thomas edi health. Here are lane five. Leah

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Speaker 1: Thomas took a little first at forty seven point six

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Speaker 1: three seconds, and that is a new IVY League Meat record.

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Speaker 1: She wins the race, she sets the record, and she

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Speaker 1: points up into the sky. She ends up hugging Isaac Hennig,

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Speaker 1: the trans swimmer from Yale who's transitioning. I think it's

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Speaker 1: natural to touch the wall first look back at the

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Speaker 1: time and if you're happy with that time, celebrate a

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Speaker 1: little bit. It was a big meat for pen It

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Speaker 1: was a big meat for her, and I think she

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Speaker 1: let loose a little bit and she was very, very excited.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go back a little bit. Tell us

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Speaker 1: about Leah's background. Where was she born. She grew up

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I really just fell in love with

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Speaker 1: being in the water, and in Texas you're showing outside

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Speaker 1: and so you're going to school and you've got Goggleton

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Speaker 1: and captain and everybody's asking why do you have that?

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Speaker 1: Like swimming, She initially started as a breaststroker. When she

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Speaker 1: reaches high school, she really realizes if she's able to

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Speaker 1: swim long distance freestyle events, that's generally the quicker way

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Speaker 1: into some of the top meats. They're very demanding, they're punishing,

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Speaker 1: they're very very tough. Not a lot of kids can hang.

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Speaker 1: So she was able to very quickly get into that

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Speaker 1: and really start dominating her competition. They're getting looks from

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Speaker 1: some of the top collegiate programs in the nation and

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Speaker 1: really really doing well. Leah's obviously swimming extremely well. She

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Speaker 1: realizes she's talented, how does she make it to Philadelphia?

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Speaker 1: Her brother West had swum for a head coach, Mike Schner.

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Speaker 1: Leah and her parents and West had felt very, very

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Speaker 1: comfortable with Schner, the program he built at the University

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Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania and the kind of support that he really

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Speaker 1: gave his swimmers over the years. The family felt comfortable

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Speaker 1: with obviously the education that's a life changing education, and

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Speaker 1: it felt like a very safe and welcoming environment because

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a parent too, and you're looking for

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Speaker 1: places where your kids are gonna fit in and they're

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Speaker 1: gonna do well, and they're gonna feel supported, And clearly

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Speaker 1: Bob and Carrie Thomas felt that for Leah going to

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Speaker 1: school there and started out really gangbusters on the men's

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Speaker 1: team there and did extraordinarily well. We're also going to

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Speaker 1: bring in Julie Kliegman for this conversation. Julie writes about

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Speaker 1: queer athletes and issues for Sports Illustrated. Julie, there was

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Speaker 1: a time in Leah's life when she said she started

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Speaker 1: to feel less comfortable and she didn't feel like she

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Speaker 1: fit in her own body. There's actually a term for

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Speaker 1: this called gender dysphoria. Could you explain that for us, sure,

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Speaker 1: gender dysphoria is a documented condition by psychologists and psychiatrists.

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Speaker 1: What it entails is not feeling comfortable in your own skin,

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Speaker 1: maybe having a body part or several body parts that

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Speaker 1: are coded as more masculine or more feminine that you

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Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable with. It's something that a lot of

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Speaker 1: trans people feel, but to different degrees and in different ways.

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Speaker 1: For those who experience it, it's this big, persistent, potentially

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Speaker 1: harmful issue. I was at that time. Software is putting

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Speaker 1: far more focus on relieving the gender dysphoria had been failing.

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Speaker 1: That was, uh crippling it talk basically all my energy.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, bed most days, some days I didn't have

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Speaker 1: got that. I wouldn't go to class because, uh the

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Speaker 1: dysphoria and depression and cost in Leam meets with counseling

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Speaker 1: and psychological services a PEN and they hear her story

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Speaker 1: and they tell her, Hey, you have access to this

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Speaker 1: treatment called hormone replacement therapy or HRT. Julie, what is HRT?

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Speaker 1: How does it work? What does it do? Yeah, Hormone

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Speaker 1: replacement therapy is suppressing testops her own development and it

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Speaker 1: boosts estrogen you know, the more quote unquote female hormone.

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Speaker 1: So with someone who's transgender, that process can alleviate gender

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Speaker 1: dysphoria and make them feel okay in their own skin.

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Speaker 1: When I started HRT, I did that knowing and accepting

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Speaker 1: that I might not still again, and I had I

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Speaker 1: would wait that to be worth it in my mind.

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Speaker 1: The software year is when I started hormone Replacement Therapy UM,

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Speaker 1: which for me was estrogen and a testosterone blocker, and

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Speaker 1: that was incredibly helpful, really pretty quickly surprised me. And

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Speaker 1: I had read a lot about HRT and and people's

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Speaker 1: experiences on it, but this sort of mental relief that

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Speaker 1: it gave me really pretty quick and in fight the

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Speaker 1: stay at them. And as the HRT blocks your testosterone,

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Speaker 1: your athletic ability is also reduced, at least in the

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Speaker 1: eyes of the n c double A. I mean you're

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Speaker 1: looking like beyond a decade when the n c A

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Speaker 1: really started looking at this issue of particularly trans female

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Speaker 1: athletes coming into collegiate sports last year and this year

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Speaker 1: it really kind of came to a head with Leah.

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Speaker 1: Leah was kind of the push in all of this,

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Speaker 1: where previously we had one year of testing testosterone. You

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Speaker 1: had to be on HRT for a year. A full

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Speaker 1: year has to be documented. Your university has to, you know,

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Speaker 1: file all the paperwork. The athlete has to show all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. So that's what the rule was. What you

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Speaker 1: saw was in January. These rules kind of start shifting

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Speaker 1: a little bit, and then you essentially had the n

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Speaker 1: c a A punting this to the governing boards and

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Speaker 1: in the United States that are overseeing individual sports, and

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Speaker 1: in this case they really punted it to us A swimming.

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Speaker 1: That's when you started seeing some of the other rule changes.

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Speaker 1: You have to show that you've been undergoing HRT for

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Speaker 1: thirty six months before you can even apply to swim

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Speaker 1: in this different category for yourself. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: this changed, and and Leah, as of n c A S,

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Speaker 1: would only have thirty four months of HRT, so she

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Speaker 1: would have missed that window by two months. So the

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Speaker 1: n c A came back and basically said, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll adopt these, but we're gonna go incrementally. Here. Now

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Speaker 1: you have the n c a A saying through a

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Speaker 1: subcommittee that she will be able to swim. But it's

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Speaker 1: just been handled so strangely in so many different ways

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Speaker 1: where there's just been so much confusion. Julie, how does

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Speaker 1: the n C double's decision to punt on trans policy

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Speaker 1: complicate matters? It complicates matters a lot. It creates the

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Speaker 1: sort of patchwork of experiences in the n C Double

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Speaker 1: a where technically, if you're a two sport athlete, now

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Speaker 1: you can be considered a woman in one sport and

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Speaker 1: a man in another sport. In my opinion, it was

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Speaker 1: not the smartest move to pass responsibility to these governing

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Speaker 1: bodies because now you have all these questions. It raises

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Speaker 1: about who's going to oversee testing, who's going to be

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Speaker 1: tested and when and why. So it just creates a mess. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: on the point of testing, no matter who handles the oversight,

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Speaker 1: it seems that at the end of the day, somebody

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Speaker 1: will be measuring testosterone. Is that enough to determine someone's

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Speaker 1: athletic advantage? Absolutely not. There are still so many open

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Speaker 1: questions around the science of transgender athletes and what makes

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Speaker 1: someone a good athlete. It's really clear to me that

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Speaker 1: there are many factors other than to stop cerone, because

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Speaker 1: women and men like not just transgender people, but sis

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Speaker 1: gender people, to have different levels of hormones all the time,

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Speaker 1: and they compete against each other, so it's really not

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Speaker 1: the end all be all that we like to think

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Speaker 1: testoserone is, so Robert, not everybody was totally on board

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Speaker 1: with Leah. Tell us about the anonymous letter. There have

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Speaker 1: been several now that have been sent out, initially by

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Speaker 1: Penn parents who basically said that something needed to be

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Speaker 1: done to stop Leah from swimming within the women's category,

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Speaker 1: and then there have been subsequent meetings and and then

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Speaker 1: Penn swimmers in February had sent out a letter with

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Speaker 1: sixteen teammates basically saying that they did not support Leah

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Speaker 1: swimming against them, competing with them, and didn't think that

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Speaker 1: it was error, that it was right, and that something

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Speaker 1: should be done. So this has been something that's been

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Speaker 1: going on for pretty much the entire swim season. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's another group of interested parties here. Tell us about

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Speaker 1: the Women's Sports Policy Working Group. Who are they? What

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Speaker 1: do they do? So it's led by a couple of

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Speaker 1: former Olympians, including a couple of Olympic swimmers, and they

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Speaker 1: want to find a middle ground, or at least that's

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Speaker 1: what they purport to want to find in terms of

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Speaker 1: the trains athletes bait. So the pushback is there is

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Speaker 1: an unfair aspect of her competing in the women's division.

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Speaker 1: She's taking away sponse and opportunities from other female athletes.

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Speaker 1: The pushback is also about quote unquote protecting Title nine. Really,

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Speaker 1: they're suggested policies and opinions are quite harmful toward trains athletes.

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Speaker 1: Some affiliate with that group have said, for example, that

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Speaker 1: there should be a separate category where transgender athletes compete

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Speaker 1: against each other instead of integrating them with CIS gender athletes,

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Speaker 1: i e. Most of the population. What happens to trans

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Speaker 1: kids when their gender identities are affirmed by those around them,

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Speaker 1: and what happens when they aren't. When trans kids identities

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Speaker 1: are affirmed, they do better in school, They're less likely

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Speaker 1: to be depressed or suicidal. Study showed that transgender non

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Speaker 1: binary youth who report experiencing discrimination based on their gender

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Speaker 1: had more than double the odds of attempting suicide in

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Speaker 1: the past year compared with those who did not experience

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Speaker 1: discrimination based on their gender identity. They're growing up hearing

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Speaker 1: what we have to say about Leah Thomas. Those opinions matter,

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Speaker 1: you know. They take to heart, our criticism and our praise.

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Speaker 1: Leah Thomas said that HRT in the transition she's made

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Speaker 1: literally saved her life, which is such a powerful thing

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Speaker 1: to say and share. Is that life and death component

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Speaker 1: of the conversation understood or maybe not talked about enough.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely not talked about enough, and I think when

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Speaker 1: it is we can risk sounding dramatic about it or

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Speaker 1: make it sound like hyperbole, but it is the truth.

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Speaker 1: I just want to cite Trevor Projects statistic more than

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Speaker 1: half of transgender and non binary youth seriously considered suicide

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Speaker 1: in the past year, and one in five actually attempted suicide.

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Speaker 1: This is what I think a lot of lawmakers forget

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Speaker 1: that it is life and death. Yeah, you bring up

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Speaker 1: the lawmakers, which is an important point. I'm curious about

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Speaker 1: the anti trans laws that have been proposed around the country,

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Speaker 1: including laws banning gender affirming care and banning trans youth

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Speaker 1: from sports. We'll get into some specifics, but in general,

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Speaker 1: how successful have these efforts been. Yeah? So, at least

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Speaker 1: eleven states between today have passed laws banning trans kids

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Speaker 1: from competing in sports set a line with their gender identity.

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Speaker 1: Most of those states banned only trans girls and women

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Speaker 1: from competing, but some of the have banned trans boys

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Speaker 1: and men too, and we've seen a number of other

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Speaker 1: states proposed laws like this, so it's something that is

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Speaker 1: very much still evolving. The country is still deciding how

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Speaker 1: to treat this issue, and lawmakers are kind of testing

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Speaker 1: the waters with how popular they seem to be. But

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Speaker 1: they've called on a lot more than, for example, the

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Speaker 1: bathroom bands of a few years ago have, so there's

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Speaker 1: some kind of frightening, to be honest, progress there. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course, as you mentioned, there are the laws banning

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Speaker 1: gender affirming care. Now we haven't seen as many of

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Speaker 1: those enacted yet, but they're on the way too. So

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Speaker 1: the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, recently directed Family and

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Speaker 1: Protective Services to investigate trans children. He wants that department

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Speaker 1: to prosecute their parents as child abusers, and he has

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Speaker 1: also directed teachers, doctors, and caregivers to report trans students.

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Speaker 1: That's obviously an extremely aggressive position. I'm wondering what you

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Speaker 1: made of that when you heard about this. Honestly, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to put into words how horrific it is, because

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Speaker 1: allowing kids to have gender affirming care is not child abuse.

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Speaker 1: It's the opposite of child abuse. It's letting your child live,

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Speaker 1: letting them live authentically, live happily. It's giving them a

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Speaker 1: fair chance at life. There's a young golfer in Tennessee

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Speaker 1: named Luke Eskival. Who is he and how does his

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Speaker 1: story relate to everything we've been discussing. So Luke is

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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old boy, a trans boy from outside

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Speaker 1: of Knoxville, Tennessee, and he wants to play golf. He

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Speaker 1: loves golf and played it with his dad growing up.

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Speaker 1: He played it a little bit when he was still

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Speaker 1: presenting as female on the girl's team. And he relates

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Speaker 1: to all we're talking about because he is now banned

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Speaker 1: by the state of Tennessee from playing on publicly funded

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Speaker 1: boys and men's sports teams. Yes, so help me understand

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Speaker 1: this here, because the surface argument for keeping Leah Thomas

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Speaker 1: out of the pool is that it's unfair to the

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Speaker 1: rest of her competitors, that she has an unfair advantage somehow.

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Speaker 1: So what's the argument for keeping Luke off the golf course?

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Speaker 1: Because it seems to me on the surface that the

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Speaker 1: cruelty is the point here. I think you're exactly right

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Speaker 1: the weight of the arguments of these anti trans legislators

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Speaker 1: kind of collapses under the point of Luke, because this

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Speaker 1: isn't about women's sports. He's a man, so you can't

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Speaker 1: try to claim this is about protecting Title nine. So

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Speaker 1: this really just shows that banning everyone from public life

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Speaker 1: is the point, not quote unquote protecting women's sports. So

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Speaker 1: when we're telling the story of Leah and Luke, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about them sort of in the abstract as topics

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Speaker 1: and controversies. Why do you think that sometimes we missed

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Speaker 1: the people behind it. Sports get people really emotional and

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Speaker 1: fired up, and we get into all sorts of talks

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Speaker 1: about the fairness and the science. But Leah and Luke

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Speaker 1: are just people. You might be trains yourself. You might

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Speaker 1: have a friend who's trans, or a family member or

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Speaker 1: a co worker, and you don't always know right. So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of helpful if you can just reframe it

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Speaker 1: as thinking about this person is first and foremost just

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Speaker 1: a person. Here are their likes and dislikes, Here their

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Speaker 1: strengths and their flaws. I think that's key to this

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Speaker 1: whole debate. When legislators are confronted with the humans at

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Speaker 1: the heart of it. I think it's hard for them

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Speaker 1: to keep up their arguments. So you obviously spent time

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Speaker 1: with Leah on a personal level. How is she handling

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Speaker 1: all of this. I think she kind of puts the

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Speaker 1: blinders on. She's really asked that her friends and her

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Speaker 1: family just focus straight ahead, focus on her swim season

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Speaker 1: with pen and now with n c a a S.

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Speaker 1: Once she started swimming really well, she started getting more

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Speaker 1: and more messages basically saying that you shouldn't be swimming

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Speaker 1: with women and everything you can imagine that would surround

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Speaker 1: that that she had to necessarily kind of disconnect from that.

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Speaker 1: From parts of the outside world. She felt like a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were against her, but she really focused

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Speaker 1: on the fact that she had her coaches support, some

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Speaker 1: of the teammates had supported her, She had parents who

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Speaker 1: had come up to her after some meats give her

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Speaker 1: a hug and say that, hey, we support Uliah and

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Speaker 1: what you're doing here. And I know that was extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: meaningful or her. It wasn't easy, and it has not

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Speaker 1: been easy, and it will not be easy. But I

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Speaker 1: think she's just put the blinders on and said, I'm

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Speaker 1: focusing on swimming here and the rest of the stuff

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Speaker 1: I can focus on that once she's out of the pool.

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Speaker 1: So she's already swimming at the highest level in college.

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Speaker 1: She's one of the best swimmers in college. The next

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Speaker 1: level after that, obviously is the Olympics. Is it possible

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Speaker 1: we'll see her swim in the Olympics one day. She's

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Speaker 1: certainly left the door open for that. She had talked

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Speaker 1: to me a lot, pretty extensively about swimming at Olympic Trials.

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Speaker 1: That's such a top of the mountain kind of thing

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Speaker 1: for any competitive swimmer. It's just such a tremendous moment

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Speaker 1: in his swimmer's life, and for her that was something

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Speaker 1: she really wanted to get to his trials to be

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Speaker 1: able to swim there. And if she continues on the

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Speaker 1: pace that she's going, clearly she could be swimming as

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Speaker 1: one of the top long distance freestylers in the nation,

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Speaker 1: next to someone like Katie Ladecki. Competing at Olympic Trials

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Speaker 1: has been a goal of Mines for for a very

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Speaker 1: very long time. I don't know exactly what the future

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Speaker 1: of my my swimming we looked like after this year,

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Speaker 1: but I love the story and I was swim comte.

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Speaker 1: That's who I am. She has the potential to have

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Speaker 1: a huge impact. She has a potential to show transgender

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Speaker 1: kids that they are worthy, that they can compete, that

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Speaker 1: they deserve to compete, that they can succeed, that they

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Speaker 1: can win. That's not a weight that Leah should have

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Speaker 1: to bear. But this is the situation we're in where

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Speaker 1: she's the most prominent transgender athlete right now to speak,

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Speaker 1: and so all this weight, unfortunately is on her shoulders.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully she sees the impact that it can have an

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Speaker 1: already is having. We It's just a person who wants

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Speaker 1: to swim. She's a good athlete. Why shouldn't she be

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Speaker 1: allowed the opportunity to compete like everyone else? Why is

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Speaker 1: that so hard to accept? Julie Cleveland, Sports Illustrated's copy chief,

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Speaker 1: who often writes about queer issues in sports for s I.

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Speaker 1: Robert Sanchez wrote the cover story for SI about Leah Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Will have a link in our show notes After a Break,

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Speaker 1: The wild true story of the college basketball team that

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Speaker 1: played almost its entire season on the road. Drexel Basketball

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Speaker 1: from the copperm State Eagles and the Drexel Dragons in

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Speaker 1: a moving screen and get things started. Kyrie Corbett gonna

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Speaker 1: get the call. Let's take a trip back to December.

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Speaker 1: Coppin State University's men's basketball team was about to play

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Speaker 1: its fifteenth game of the season, but only two of

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Speaker 1: those had been at home. That is not exactly normal.

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Speaker 1: By the time Coppin State arrived at Drexel in Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: their constant road schedule had finally caught up with them,

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Speaker 1: and someone forgot to bring their jerseys and so there

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Speaker 1: was some laundry mishap, uniform mishap. They did not have

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Speaker 1: their game tops here. Yeah, the game tops were left

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Speaker 1: in Baltimore accidentally. So you know, we've had some strange

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Speaker 1: things happen here this year and just kids continuing and

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Speaker 1: the Dragon speed. Strange is an understatement. While the n

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Speaker 1: c Double A Tournament rolls on with some of the

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Speaker 1: biggest and best finance programs in the country still alive

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Speaker 1: and in search of a championship, Coppin State, a tiny

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Speaker 1: HBCU in Maryland, just completed a season unlike almost any

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Speaker 1: other in college basketball history. The Eagles have one of

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Speaker 1: the five smallest budgets in Division one basketball, and they

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Speaker 1: traveled the country for much of the season in search

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Speaker 1: of while in search of money, because when the Eagles

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Speaker 1: hit the road, that means more funds for the underfunded

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Speaker 1: Coppin State athletic department. Coppin State needs money, and they

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Speaker 1: need money not just for their men's basketball program, but

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Speaker 1: for their entire athletic budget. This is Kevin Sweeney. He

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Speaker 1: wrote a great story about one of college basketball's most

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Speaker 1: unusual programs and seasons to contextualize, their athletic budget is

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Speaker 1: about the same as a highly paid men's college basketball

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Speaker 1: coach that you think of, like a Tony Bennett of

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Speaker 1: Virginia or Chris Beard at Texas. Those guys make as

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Speaker 1: much or more as Coppin State spends on all of

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Speaker 1: college sports every single season. The best way that a

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Speaker 1: school at Coppin State can make the money to fund

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Speaker 1: that department is to send its men's basketball team on

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Speaker 1: the road and to play what are called guarantee games.

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Speaker 1: And you tend to get paid somewhere in the d

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars range. So this is almost a different version

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Speaker 1: of a pay to play, right, We'll come to you,

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Speaker 1: you pay us exactly, yes, And they need that money

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Speaker 1: to survive. They need that money to pay coaches, They

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Speaker 1: need that money to afford to travel in the conference season.

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Speaker 1: They needed to, you know, literally keep the lights on

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Speaker 1: in the gym. So fairly small school with not that

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Speaker 1: big a budget. So how does the money work. They

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Speaker 1: get this money back for going on the road. Does

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Speaker 1: that go straight to the basketball team or is that

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Speaker 1: the whole department across the board where it's sort of

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Speaker 1: trickled down economics for the other teams that also are

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Speaker 1: looking for some funds. It tends to trickle down through

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Speaker 1: every program in the athletic department. So men's basketball is

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Speaker 1: the the breadwinner because it is the most valuable program.

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Speaker 1: They don't have football, which would traditionally be able to

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Speaker 1: go get even a bigger check than men's basketball can.

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Speaker 1: The way that you're explaining this to me feels like

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Speaker 1: a pretty big indictment of Division one athletics. Know that like,

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Speaker 1: the best that Coppen State can muster is is sending

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Speaker 1: its men's basketball team on the road so that they

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Speaker 1: can fund these other sports across men's and women's athletics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's certainly, you know, deserving of a conversation.

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Speaker 1: If nothing else, I think it's a reminder of the

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Speaker 1: haves and haves nots and in this thing, right, I

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Speaker 1: think when people think of Division one sports, they think

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Speaker 1: of what happens that duke in Kentucky and you know,

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Speaker 1: Alabama and those places that have unlimited resources. And in reality,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more schools that are closer to what

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Speaker 1: Coppin State has. I mean, Coppin State is in the

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Speaker 1: bottom five in men's basketball budget there as small as

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Speaker 1: you can get. Yeah, you mentioned some of these bigger programs.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because the head coach, Wan Dixon, he's an

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Speaker 1: n c Double A champion, he spent seven years in

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Speaker 1: the NBA. He played at one of those big schools,

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Speaker 1: one of those big programs. He played in Maryland. James

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Speaker 1: can not stay with Dickson quickness wise, and Dickson knows

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Speaker 1: that he wants to clear out makes his move. No,

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Speaker 1: It'll take the three a huge tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about Juan Dixon and his stewardship of a program

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Speaker 1: that is considerably smaller than the one he played for

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Speaker 1: in college. The thing that was very obvious to me

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Speaker 1: the first time I met Juan Dixon was that he

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Speaker 1: leads by example, and he's been through the experiences of

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Speaker 1: every level of basketball. Right, He's been a superstar at

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Speaker 1: the highest level in college. He's been in the NBA,

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Speaker 1: He's been on the fringes of life, and in professional basketball.

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Speaker 1: He's been a low level staffer at high major programs

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Speaker 1: like Maryland, and now finally a Division one head coach

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Speaker 1: at at the lowest level. And I think the thing

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Speaker 1: that you come to realize is someone like Wan Dixon,

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Speaker 1: who has had it all at one point in the

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Speaker 1: basketball world, who has been flying on the private jets

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Speaker 1: and staying in the four seasons, is now doing team

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Speaker 1: laundry and collecting players as sweaty clothes after practice. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how many head coaches in the country Washington

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Speaker 1: their players dirty laundry over night. He's making sure the

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Speaker 1: kids are on time to class, making sure that their

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Speaker 1: grades are good, the kids that they recruit will qualify.

429
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: I could emically to get into Coppon State, all the

430
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: little things that other programs have staff first upon staffers

431
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: to handle. You know, if I got to do it,

432
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: then I'll do it. Tell us about him washing the

433
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: clothes for his players, and what kind of water bill

434
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: does this guy have? He didn't tell me if he

435
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: expensive it or not. He jokingly said that you know,

436
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: his water bill is gonna be like five some months.

437
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a real number. I mean

438
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: he he does laundry every day. I mean after their

439
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: opening opening game of the season against Laws Chicago, he

440
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: went back to the hotel and he sat in the

441
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: launch room and washed the jersey so they would have

442
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: jerseys for the rest of road trip. But let's get

443
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: more into the actual process of what all of this

444
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: looks like for a small college to be on the

445
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: road all the time. When proteins hit the road, they're

446
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: taking charter flights and meals and everything's catered and they

447
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: have nary a care in the world. Kevin. All of

448
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: that cost money, though, and I would imagine that it

449
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: doesn't quite look the same here with Coppin State. No

450
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't. And first off, obviously you're traveling commercially. You're

451
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: flying on Southwest flights. I mean their first flight of

452
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: the season, they flew a Southwest flight from b White

453
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: to Chicago midway and then got off the bus and

454
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: bus to an airport hotel at Chicago Hair which is

455
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: like forty five minute drive, and then stay at the

456
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: airport hotel for a couple of hours. And went to

457
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: practice all the way across the town in Chicago to

458
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: Loyal Chicago. That's if everything goes well. I actually talked

459
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: to someone who was in the program a few years

460
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: before and they had an issue where the hotel rooms

461
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: weren't booked properly and they slept in the lobby of

462
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: the hotel that that night. As a team, everything you

463
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: can imagine of kind of life on the fringes is

464
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: what they have to do. If you're a kid who's

465
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: good enough to play Division one basketball, you probably have

466
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: some expectation about what that's going to be like, what

467
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: that's going to feel like. It's got to be a

468
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: proud moment, right, Oh, I made it to a certain level.

469
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: But when you're sleeping on the hotel lobby floor, how

470
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: are they dealing with this? How do they process that?

471
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: All the players felt really grateful for the opportunity. I

472
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: think the one thing that's notable is, like a kid

473
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: who's going to play Division one basketball, Cop and State

474
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: probably had very few, if any other Division one options,

475
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: like this was their chance. They're still getting to experience

476
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: great environments and go into Yukon and play a game

477
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: and play against future NBA players and get to show off,

478
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, they're also getting

479
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 1: tape out there for themselves. So when their careers end,

480
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: they have an opportunity to play professionally in Europe or

481
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 1: played professionally in the United States. I really didn't have

482
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: too many options just to say, but I mean, I

483
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: knew that community somewhere where they're let me play out

484
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: my style of game. Let's discuss their first game of

485
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: the season. You mentioned they go to Chicago to play

486
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: Loyal University of Chicago. Paint a picture about how that

487
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: went down. Kevin is good, want to play this is

488
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: loyal to Loyal. Students were packed in the gym and

489
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: you could just kind of tell when you walked in

490
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: this was not going to be pretty here at Genya Lorena,

491
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: a scene we have not experienced in quite some time.

492
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: The fans are filing in the students section right behind.

493
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: It's already rocking a very normal This was not going

494
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: to be close, and it was just a matter of

495
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: could they be competitive. It was not a fair fight.

496
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean they were down thirty to three, they lost

497
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: by fifty eight overall. I mean, it was just it

498
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: was a blood bath. That is just about going to

499
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: do with the Ramblers open up with an emphatic victory

500
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: over Coppin State. Here tonight at Genteel Arena, You're final

501
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: Loyola one oh three Coppin State. Yeah. To say that

502
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't a fair fight, Kevin, is an understatement. This

503
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: was much more like Rocky four at the beginning, when

504
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: Rocky really should have thrown in the towel and save Creeds,

505
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: asked Kevin. They lost a hundred and three to forty five.

506
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 1: And so while I'm reading this article, my first thought is,

507
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: is Coppin State getting paid to lose? Is this a

508
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: Washington general situation where everybody else gets to be the globetrotters.

509
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: I think the way I would frame it is it's

510
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: not that they're being paid to lose. That it's more

511
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: important that they play the games than that they win games, right, Like,

512
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: it's very important to them, every single player in that

513
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: program that they win, and the coaches. But they also

514
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: understand that the reason they're doing this and the reason

515
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: they have to do this is not let's go put

516
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: together an n Stabili tournament. Resume the service that they

517
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: provide by playing. I'm not numb to that that's certainly commendable.

518
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: It's necessary for the Coppin State athletic department, as you've outlined.

519
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: But I'm also wondering about how they cope with all

520
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: this because they start the season oh and five Kevin,

521
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: and they know that they're going to get drummed by

522
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: most teams most nights. So what does that do for

523
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: their morale and how are they functioning after losing these

524
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: big games. It varied on the game. It's a roller coaster.

525
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: I think after losing my fifty on opening night it

526
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: was like a real sobering day. I mean I walked

527
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: into the gym the next day for the shoot around,

528
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: it it sounded like you you could literally hear a

529
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: pin drop. It was really a stark contrast to what

530
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: I've seen. And they're shoot around before the loyal A game,

531
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: you know, the day before, you saw some kind of

532
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: fraying emotions. You saw players and coaches kind of being

533
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: argumentative with each other. But I think there were other games,

534
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: like against the Paul that night, they played much more competitive.

535
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: They were in the game, they were down one at halftime,

536
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: They were really in it for until the final ten

537
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: minutes when it got away from them, will inbound it

538
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: and this one will be over final store in Chicago.

539
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: The Paul ninety seven of the State seventy two. A

540
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: nice start for Tame. You mentioned sort of the competitive

541
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: pride that players taken this right and how that takes

542
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: a hit, that takes a toll on them, but you

543
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: also said something about the emotional toll that it takes

544
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: on them. And I'm wondering how hard it is for

545
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: the players and coaches to be away for such a

546
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: long time, for such long stretches. The coaches, I'm guessing,

547
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: have families that they have to leave behind, and the

548
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: players are college kids who don't really get to experience

549
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: the college atmosphere because they're constantly sleeping in a hotel

550
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: lobby somewhere. It's really challenging. I know their director of

551
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: basketball operations, Brianna Gross, she has a four year old

552
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: and was basically away from her child for much of

553
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: a month, and the team kind of adopted the kid

554
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: and would get on face time and see him on

555
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: the bus, but like, it's not the same, right, and

556
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: players didn't see their families for weeks until they if

557
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: they were if they had family that was local, they

558
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: could go see them on Thanksgiving, but they had to

559
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: be back the next morning because they had to catch

560
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: a six hour bus to East Carolina at a plan

561
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: the day after Black Friday. Basketball came first, and so

562
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: at times it's truly challenging for them. These are eighteen

563
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: to twenty two year old kids, and eight old kids

564
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: have great relationships sometimes, and they fight sometimes, and there

565
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: is no go back to the apartments, and everybody takes

566
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 1: their time and hangs out with their other friends and

567
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: takes a second away from basketball. You're with them all

568
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: the time. They got closer through this, but they also

569
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: had some shaky moments I think throughout. Yeah, shaky moments.

570
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: Sounds like it's the theme for everything here. I'm interested

571
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: in something else, Kevin. We talk a lot about college

572
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: kids as student athletes, which is a euphanism we could

573
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: debate some other time. But they're college kids, right. Part

574
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 1: of the college experience involves interacting with other college kids.

575
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: As you said, they don't really get to do that.

576
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: They interact with each other. But the other component there

577
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: for student athletes is the student part going to class.

578
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: So how do they do any of that when they

579
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: are in town? They're expected to go to class. Their

580
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: coaches do a really good job of staying up with

581
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: professors and make sure professors know the players are schedules

582
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: and making sure that you know, assignments are are dealt with,

583
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: and and the kids are in study hall. You know,

584
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: they have study hall when they're on the road for

585
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: ninety minutes, and the coaches will oversee that and then

586
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: they can kind of rest up and head to the

587
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: gym to go play the game. So it is a

588
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 1: requirement that you stay eligible, that you're doing your class work,

589
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: but you're also just not in class all that often.

590
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: I was talking to one player and then Tatar because

591
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: a sophomore, so he's been through this once before, and

592
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: he said, you know, literally we got back in early

593
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: December and is our first time on campus for multiple days.

594
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: And I got a text from a professor like, hey, like,

595
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: are you gonna be a class today? I know you

596
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 1: guys are back, and he was like, oh man, I

597
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: have class today, like he had completely forgotten to school

598
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: all day. And Kevin, we talked about the emotional component,

599
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: what about the physical aspect of just the grind on

600
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: these kids. I know their kids, they recover more quickly

601
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: than maybe you or I do. But what about the

602
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: physical component of them being on the road all the

603
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: time and playing all these games and sleeping in hotel

604
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: rooms or hotel lobbies and not getting maybe the kind

605
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: of rest that you would get when you have a

606
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: more normal schedule. Inevitably, when you play more minutes than

607
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: anyone else and compon States players played more minutes of

608
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: basketball than any other team did for the first month

609
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: of season, You're going to have Nixon bumps and bruises

610
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: and one of the best players who was leading them

611
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: in minutes. At one point, Jesse Sarzuela was you know.

612
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: I was talking to him. He's like, yeah, man, my

613
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: knees just feel weird personally, just device money something I've

614
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: never really done. But they've been very fortunate not to

615
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: have any major injuries and going through this process, we

616
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time talking about all the sacrifices

617
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: that they have to make, not just for themselves and

618
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: their team, but for Coppin State at large. So I'm

619
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: wondering if there are any upsides to being on the

620
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: road all the time. I mean, we talked about do

621
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: they get Jimmy John's during practice In the debate but like,

622
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: tell me, at least they get late night dominoes or

623
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: something out of us. Well, I think the upside is

624
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: in the experiences. I mean, yes, they still get to

625
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: fly cool places and go see different things. They get

626
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: to go to Chicago and North Carolina, and maybe Buffalo

627
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: isn't the most enjoyable winter destination, but you know, Buffalo

628
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: send your hate mail to Kevin. You can travel the

629
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: world and see the country in a way that a

630
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: lot of these kids never could have dreamed of growing up.

631
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: And they get the opportunity to play in these showcases moments,

632
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: and they get to be with their teammates, their brothers

633
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: that they've built strong bonds with. So just beating around

634
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: each other, we were able to like love each other

635
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: for who we are, you know, Demi says, like if

636
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: we had problems were able to work through them together

637
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: as you know, being separated apartments or you know, going

638
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: back to our rooms, we would be together, talk about

639
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: them and love each other for it all right, Kevin. So,

640
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: the n C Double A Tournament is about to be

641
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: upon us this weekend, after this entire season of being

642
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: mostly on the road. Tell me, the Cop and State

643
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: ran the table in the conference tournament and they're going dancing,

644
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 1: and then everything worked out well. They made a push.

645
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: It was sowmat surprising really. They had had a uneven

646
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: regular season and conference play and wound up at the

647
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: seventh seed in the conference tournament. But they pulled two

648
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: upsets and wound up playing for a spot in the

649
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,479
Speaker 1: n Double A tournament and faced off with Norfolk State,

650
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 1: who was by far the best team in the league

651
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: all season long. They were in the game at halftime

652
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: right there, and I just didn't quite have enough to

653
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: get over the hump. But they really battled. I mean,

654
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: they had an opportunity to go dancing, and in talking

655
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: to one of their coaches a little bit, it was

656
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: the moment that all of the sacrifice that they had

657
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: gone through late last year when they were putting together

658
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: this non conference schedule became worth it. They had an

659
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: opportunity to go play anancial the term. Despite it all,

660
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: they felt battle tests, they felt prepared, and just couldn't

661
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: quite get over hump against a really good team. But

662
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: that's March. I mean, they could have went dancing despite

663
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: all all they went through, despite the start, despite the

664
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: ugly win loss record, they were forty minutes away from

665
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: an end term. Read his piece about Coppin States never

666
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: ending road odyssey on SI dot com. Kevin Sweeney, thank

667
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: you for doing this, Thanks for having me after a break.

668
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: Grant Wall on how Russia's invasion of Ukraine has impacted soccer.

669
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: The Russian invasion of Ukraine has had countless ripple effects,

670
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: including for the sports world, and perhaps no sport has

671
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: been more impacted by the fallout than soccer. Grant Wall

672
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: was hugely responsible for putting sports illustrated soccer coverage on

673
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: the map, and we spoke with him about how the

674
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: sport has been affected by the developing situation. All right, Grant,

675
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: So for years we've seen Vladimir Putin try to use

676
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: sports as a form of soft power with the Olympics

677
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: and the World Cup. Explain the strategy there for him

678
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: and how Russia benefits from being on the international sports stage.

679
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: You know, I can remember being in Zurich on December two,

680
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: and I remember that day because it was such a

681
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: huge moment in the history of FIFA. So the FIFA

682
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: the Cupid Cup Ladies and Gentlemen will be organized in

683
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: Russia was Russia, two was Qatar, and on that day,

684
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin actually did a press conference at FIFA once

685
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: they had that victory. It was important for him to

686
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: celebrate that and to run a victory lab. Thank you

687
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: for supporting Prussia together together, let us make sure that

688
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 1: football promotes fair play, tolerance owner. Thank you the ladies

689
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: and gentlemen for your attention. So he's definitely used sports

690
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: and major sporting events over the years to build up

691
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: his own standing with Russians, to show Russia to the

692
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: rest of the world. I can remember at the end

693
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: of the World Cup in eighteen the Thiefa president Johnny

694
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 1: and Fantino making this very loud proclamation of the world

695
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: now sees Russians and Russia differently than they did before.

696
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: And you presume that he included the Russian government and

697
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: what he was saying, and so it was kind of

698
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: ridiculous because I don't think anyone's opinion of Putin change

699
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 1: because of the World Cup In and Russia. But they

700
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: had a very tight relationship, the FIFA president and Putin

701
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: at that time. Yeah, so you mentioned that relationship. I

702
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: mean FIFA and the IOC for that matter as well,

703
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: have had close ties to Putin and Russia for a while.

704
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: So how does what's happening now as we see the

705
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: ripple FLEXX and the fallout from the invasion of Ukraine

706
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: affect that relationship with Putin and Russia and these large

707
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: governing sports bodies. Well, Russia still has a very big

708
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: influence in the world of soccer. You know you've got

709
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: in the club game. Aime. St. Petersburg at gas Prom

710
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: Arena was supposed to host the AAFA Men's Champions League

711
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: Final this year. That got moved very quickly after the

712
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: invasion to Paris. But even then, I don't think I

713
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: expected FIFA to by on Russia like they have now.

714
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: But they've had to get a lot of pressure to

715
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: get to that point from other countries, and without that pressure,

716
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: I don't think FIFA would have taken this action because

717
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: I think we know this by now. FIFA is not

718
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: going to lead, They're not going to be the first

719
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: ones out there to make a big decision like this,

720
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: And they still have people, including their president, who love

721
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: to say politics and sports are not connected. When we

722
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: know they're connected. We know that they're deeply connected in

723
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: that Russia and Putin have used big sporting events in

724
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: the past to enhance their political standing. That's why they

725
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: bid for these events to a large degree, so it

726
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 1: definitely had to be pushed, but you know, eventually they

727
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: got there. So FIFA ends up suspending Russia and definitely

728
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: and they won't compete. But they only did so, as

729
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: you mentioned, after pressure from other countries like Poland and

730
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: Sweden and the Czech Republic that said they weren't going

731
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: to play Russia and qualifiers. So why do you think

732
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: that FIFA finally succumbed to this band and the pressure

733
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: and how did they want to handle initially, because they

734
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: had a different way that they tried to handle it

735
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: before being forced into this way. Yeah, so FIFA actually

736
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: made an initial announcement saying we're going to let Russia play,

737
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: but not under the Russian flag. We're not going to

738
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: play their anthems, very much like how the Olympics have

739
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: approached Russian athletes. And I think it was a test

740
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: by FIFA to see if Poland, which is the national

741
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: team that scheduled to play Russia in the first playoff

742
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: this month, and the other two teams that could play

743
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: in the next game against Russia, Sweden and the checks

744
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: to see if they would back off, and very quickly

745
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: they did not back off, which I thought was a

746
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: really impressive thing for them to do. And so you

747
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: had these three countries say, look, we will not play

748
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: Russia anywhere anytime, and essentially, if you want to kick

749
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: us out of the World Cup and keep Russia in FIFA,

750
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: you can do that. But we all know what the

751
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: response is going to be internationally to that. And then

752
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: also too, I think another thing that caused FIFA to

753
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: come out with a new statement, a new action actually

754
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: suspending Russia, banning them for now is the io C

755
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: even came out and said they recommended the suspension of Russia,

756
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: which was a little surprising to me based on what

757
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: the IOC hasn't hasn't done even the most recent Winter

758
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: Olympics with the Russians. But you know, looming over all

759
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: of this is the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which

760
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: has overruled the io C on some of its Russia

761
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: penalties in the asked and could do that again here.

762
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 1: And now you have Russia talking about taking this ruling

763
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: two C A S. So that's going to be the

764
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: next story to follow here. So I'm not totally writing

765
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 1: off the fact that Russia might actually get an appeal here.

766
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: I want to bring up the situation with Chelsea, which

767
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: is a complete mess. It's one of the biggest and

768
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: most successful clubs in the world in the Premier League,

769
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: and the owner is this Russian oligarch named Roman Abramovich

770
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: who has close ties to Putin, and he tried to

771
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: put the team up for sale, but then the British

772
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: government blocked that and froze his assets and the club

773
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: Chelsea still has the special license to keep operating, but

774
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: they're not allowed to sell tickets or merch grant. Put

775
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: in perspective, how big a deal it is for a

776
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: club as important and as successful as Chelsea to be

777
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: going through all this turmoil. It's a huge moment for

778
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: the sport of soccer globally because Romano Bramovich really changed

779
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: the sport forever when he bought chell See in two

780
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: thousand three. Dumped a tremendous amount of money into buying

781
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: a team that would very quickly win Premier League titles

782
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: and eventually win Champions League titles, including last year's Champions League,

783
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: and everything changes as of right now because Roman Abramovich

784
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: wanted to try and sell this team very quickly. He

785
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: knew sanctions were coming from the UK, but he didn't

786
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: get it sold quickly enough. And now we don't know

787
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: exactly what's going to happen, but my sense is that

788
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: what will happen is Chelsea will get possessed by the

789
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: UK government, which will oversee a sale to a new owner.

790
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: But whoever becomes the owner at Chelsea will get it

791
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: for a far lower price than they would have before

792
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and that's due to Roman

793
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 1: Abranovich being sanctioned as someone with close ties to Putin

794
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: over the years. So it has a huge impact on

795
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: one of the biggest clubs in the world. And who

796
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: knows what will happen now because the UK government is

797
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: really putting some stringent spending requirements on Chelsea. They can't

798
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: sell new tickets right now, they can't sell merchandise. Their

799
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: sponsor on their shirt announced they were pulling out of

800
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: doing that, so they're going to have a blank shirt

801
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: for the rest of the season and they're going to

802
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: have a tight budget even for traveling to away games,

803
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: including in the Champions League, so it's pretty extensive from

804
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: that perspective. The UK government says They don't want to

805
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: hurt Chelsea fans. They just want to make sure that

806
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: Roman a branvitch gets no money coming into his pocket. Alright,

807
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: So no tickets, no march. You know that's not going

808
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: to go over while the fans, and it didn't. The

809
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: fans interrupted a moment of applause for Ukraine, which the

810
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: manager of Chelsea criticized, But they did it to sing

811
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: about Abramovich and support him. What did you make of

812
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: all that? You know, it's part of the tribal nature

813
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: of sports, especially soccer globally and in the Premier League,

814
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 1: where a lot of Chelsea fans don't care what kind

815
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: of person Roman Abramovich is or who he's tight with,

816
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: even if it's Vladimir Putin. They care about the fact

817
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: that he put money into their team and they won titles.

818
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: And that was the group of Chelsea fans that we

819
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: heard from during what was supposed to be in front

820
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: of the entire watching world at this Premier League game,

821
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: a moment to honor Ukraine and support Ukraine. And here

822
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: the Chelsea fans, at least the ones that we're singing,

823
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: we're supporting Vladimir Putin's buddy because he helped Chelsea win trophies,

824
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: so watching in that moment, I was just like, seriously,

825
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? And yet I wasn't surprised. It

826
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: was one of those kind of moments. And I'm glad

827
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 1: Thomas too Cold that Chelsea coach said that was totally

828
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: out of order because it was so not only were

829
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: they singing in favor of a Bramovich grant, but they

830
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: were also protesting in the streets. We've seen some examples

831
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: of this so far where Chelsea fans are angry at

832
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: their own UK government for taking a stand against Russia

833
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: and Putin because it affects their soccer team, and obviously

834
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: whoever is protesting in the streets has lost all sense

835
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: of perspective on things. And once again not surprised particularly.

836
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: But I think it's important also to know that this

837
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: isn't every Chelsea fan, right. I mean, some of these

838
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: bad actors I think probably a majority of Chelsea fans

839
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: themselves don't have time for. But it does show how

840
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: tribal things are in the Premier League. How you know

841
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: this is such a big thing for a number of

842
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 1: Chelsea fans alright, So it's not just a Bramovich, who

843
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 1: has had problems so far. Everton's part owner Alischersmanov also

844
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: is close to putin grant and Everton broke with his companies,

845
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: which is very expensive decision to make, and the German

846
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: authorities just seized his mega yacht, so you know, tough

847
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: times for his mon off. What happens for him and

848
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: Everton moving forward, well, one big thing is Everton had

849
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: announced plans to build this amazing new stadium which was

850
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: mainly with small house money, and that is very much

851
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: up in the air now if that's even going to

852
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: move forward. And Everton isn't one of the big six

853
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: clubs of the Premier League and so to have someone

854
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: with his money come into the club and be able

855
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: to talk about announcing building a new stadium and buying

856
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: more expensive players, that was a big deal for Everton.

857
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 1: But now this could change the course of that club's situation.

858
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: And you know, it's very very clear at this point

859
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 1: that officials in the UK are very serious about seizures,

860
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: about sanctions against oligarchs, because you know, people like Abramovich

861
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't be taking the steps they're taking if that wasn't

862
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: the case. So obviously sports teams and leagues and federations

863
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: getting in bed with questionable companies and trees is hardly new.

864
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: It's not just Premier League teams either. You know, the

865
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: Olympics were just in China, the World Cup will be

866
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: in Qatar, where there are human rights and labor abuses.

867
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: I know that we're seeing some movement right now in

868
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: this moment because of Ukraine grant, But do you think

869
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: that there will be a lasting effect on this or

870
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: do you think that we'll go back to business as

871
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 1: usual because eventually money always wins out. I think that's

872
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: the big question because the phrase sportswashing is proliferating more

873
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: and more, and we've seen so many examples, whether it's

874
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: authoritarian countries getting the hosting rights to the Olympics and

875
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: the World Cup, whether it's the Saudis buying Newcastle United recently.

876
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: And there's certainly talk right now of the Premier League

877
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: instituting a much stricter ownership rule where they're going to

878
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: take hard looks that they say the sources of the

879
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: funding for these groups that want to buy Premier League teams.

880
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: But in the end, I don't know if that's gonna happened.

881
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a truly game changing

882
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: situation here, because once the attention goes away, will the

883
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: desires still be there? You know, I just visited Qatar

884
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: recently for my writing site, and I think there's a

885
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: you know, I know, there's a real concern that some

886
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: of the gains that have taken place the Qatari government

887
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: having been forced to announce reforms for labor situations, that

888
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: there's a real concern that that will all go away

889
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: the second the World Cup is over. Yeah, there's a

890
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: lot going on here. We appreciate you walking us through it.

891
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: You can sign up for his sub stack at Grant

892
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: Wall dot sub stack dot com and you can find

893
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: him at Grant Wall on Twitter. Grant, thank you so

894
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: much for us, Thanks for having me. Sports Illustrated Weekly

895
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: is a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio.

896
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

897
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

898
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: And for more of Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts,

899
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly

900
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: was produced by Cooper McKim, Jessica Yourmoski, and Isaac Lee,

901
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: who was also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is

902
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 1: Dan Bloom. Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me

903
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: John Gonzalez. Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks

904
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: for listening and if you've stuck around this song, we

905
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: leave you with this. Yeah. So, I was thinking, if

906
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: we got the money together, would coppin State come play

907
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: me and my friends in a pickup game.