WEBVTT - Trump Charges Dropped & Madigan Corruption Trial 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.440 Jack Smith should be considered mentally deranged and he should 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:15.960 be thrown out of the country. Somebody said, why don't 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:18.320 you be nice to him? I said, it wouldn't matter. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.200 Wouldn't matter. This guy's a maniac. We wouldn't be under 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:27.160 investigation by deranged Jack Smith. He's a deranged human man. 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:28.720 You take a look at that face. You say that 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.120 guy is a sick man. There's something wrong with him. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.280 Donald Trump has berated and ridiculed Special counsel Jack Smith 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.800 over and over again, so much so that many consider 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.599 Smith to be at the top of the president elect's 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:46.560 list of targets when he takes office. But Smith reportedly 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.479 intends to resign before that and a sort of cleaning 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.760 house before inauguration day. Today, he filed motions to drop 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:58.120 all federal charges against Trump in the case over his 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.000 effort to overturn the twenty two any presidential election and 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.840 the case over his mishandling of classified documents. Joining me 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.320 is Bloomberg Legal reporters Zoe Tillman. Did this come as 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.840 any surprise or were we expecting this? 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.319 We were expecting this in broad strokes, given the Justice 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.640 Department policy which is longstanding that sitting presidents can't be 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.319 charged or prosecuted. And you know, we had confirmation that 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.120 the Special Council would be winding down these prostitutions. I 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.480 think what was unclear was, you know, whether they would 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.360 let stand a lower court ruling finding the Special Council 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.640 and constitutional in the Classified Documents case, or whether they 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.399 would try to preserve some part of that appeal. And 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.720 we got that answer today, which is that they will 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.000 try to move forward with it for now. But you know, 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.360 once Trump takes office, he has the ability to shut 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.120 it down completely or to pardon his co defendants. So 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.320 there's not much more that can be done. But for now, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.520 at least you know that part of the case is 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:04.160 still active. 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:09.119 So the Classified Documents case had already been dismissed by 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.160 a Florida judge, so. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.480 He dropped the election interference indictment against Trump and also 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.040 said that they would no longer appeal the dismissal of 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.000 charges against Trump in the Classified Documents case. Lower court 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.360 judge in Florida, Judge Aalen Cannon had already dismissed that indictment. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.600 Finding that Jacksmith's appointment and funding more unconstitutional. So prosecutors 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.840 were in the middle of appealing that decision. They're not 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.079 really dismissing the indictment because it was already dismissed by 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.240 a judge, but they're just saying we're not going to 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.840 appeal anymore. That's part of the case. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:48.920 That decision by Judge Eileen Cannon finding the Special Council 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:54.840 unconstitutional was totally novel and went against all the precedents. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.680 Do they really want that decision remaining on the books? 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.960 Well, see they right now they've said we are not 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.959 dismissing the appeal. As to Trump's co defendants, Walt Nauda 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.880 and Carlos the ala Vera, there's a reply brief from 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.880 the government in the next few days. If something, they 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.840 don't spile it today along with their notice. The Eleventh 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:20.000 Circuit hasn't set arguments yet, so it's still possible that 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.959 if the court wanted to move quickly before Trump is 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:27.079 sworn in on January twentieth, the Eleventh Circuit could hear 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.200 arguments and rule on the issue before he takes office. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.320 It would be a very expedited schedule. But we've certainly 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.560 seen courts move quickly when asked to under certain circumstances. 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.840 So I think that's the one outstanding question is whether 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.520 prosecutors can you know, get more done on this in 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.440 the next months than a half or so. 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.960 Tell us what jack Smith said specifically, Did he say 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:57.760 anything about the strength of the case. 0:03:58.360 --> 0:03:59.880 Yeah, so, you know, you could sort of describe it 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:04.600 as the grudging dismissal of the case in the election 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.640 obstruction case, at least in their notice that they were, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.880 you know, asking the judge to dismiss it. On the 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.680 first page, Jacksmith says, you know, we stand fully behind 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.440 the strength of the case. This is not about the merits, 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.120 which we still think, you know, we're valid and should 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.599 have moved forward. But that gives Justice Department policy on 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.760 not prosecuting sitting presidents is categorical and sort of forced, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.120 basically forced his hands, you know. The other thing to 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.600 note is that they asked Judge China Chutkin to dismiss 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.719 the indictment without prejudice, which sort of leaves the door 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.880 open to a future Justice Department four years from now 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:49.799 under whoever is president next, thinking about whether they would 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.839 want to try it again, which then raisesultsors of questions 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.279 about whether, you know, could Trump self pardon in the 0:04:56.320 --> 0:05:00.400 White House to head off that possibility. It's just a 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.600 lot of uncertainty. But you know, notable that they didn't 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.560 say we're going to close the door on this altogether. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:12.320 So this really shows how Trump's policy in all his 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.279 cases of delay, delay, delay, really worked for him. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.480 It did, I think, there's no question about that. And 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.599 you know, from the beginning the move had been to 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.480 argue in favor of schedules. You know, first they were 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.760 saying there should be no trial to ask the election, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.880 and no judge was on board with that, even in Florida, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.280 where you know, Judge Cannon was seen as more accommodating 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.480 of you know, what the president elect was asking for. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.360 But she Eden said, I'm not going to push this back, 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.440 you know, until after the election is and do that 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.760 kind of political calendar making. But in the end, you know, 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:55.800 he successfully pressed appeals that delayed. He raised issues that 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.920 just forced later deadlines by virtue of the rule criminal 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.920 rules of person jervis. He files motions that requires responses, 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.919 and everyone needs time to press the briefs and argue. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.080 You know, Judge Chucklin and Washington tried very hard to 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.640 keep her case on track. But when there's a question 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.919 of presidential immunity, that is, and everyone agreed that is 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.479 immediately appealable up to the Supreme Court, and these things 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.840 just take time, so you know, to the extent, they 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.480 found ways to file motions that no one could really 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.960 argue would build in delays. They ran out the crocs successfully, and. 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:38.000 The Supreme Court helped out with its decision on presidential immunity. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.080 I mean, the court did side with him. He prevailed 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.680 in that they didn't agree that he had absolute immunity 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.560 against the case, so it kept it alive. But certainly, 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.560 you know, the majority of justices agreed with him that 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.960 at least some of the indictment would be off limits, 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.160 the part dealing with his discussions with Justice Department officials, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.560 anything that was sort of overtly part of business in 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.680 the White House. And then you know, said we're going 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.720 to send it back to a lower court judge to 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.680 do another round of determinations. So you know, in theory, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.400 I guess the Supreme Court could have said, we're going 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.480 to resolve all these questions ourselves and put the case 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:13.800 back on track if they thought that any part of 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.080 it could survive, but didn't send it back to Judge Chuckkin, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.120 who then had to set up schedule for more brief 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.280 And at that point it seems impossible that it could 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.400 be on track for a trial before election day. 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:31.080 So still Judge Chuckkin has to sign off on this. 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:32.400 She does yees. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.840 Generally speaking, judges have very little discussion in these types 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.640 of situations if the government says we don't want to 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.400 pursue this case anymore, especially ahead of a trial. You know, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.360 one instance where we saw judge put a hold on 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.000 cod trying to drop something within the case of Michael Flynn, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.640 who was Trump's former national security advisor, and Flynn had 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.360 been prosecuted under a former Special Council and then spun 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.080 off to a US attorney office related to the Russian investigation. 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.000 But Michael Frinn had already had pleaded guilty. So the 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:06.960 judge in that case has said, you know, I'm not 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.920 sure if I can drop this right away if he's 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:15.520 already been factual findings about guilt and acceptance of responsibility, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.000 et cetera, et cetera. But that's not the case here. 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.320 There's been no fact finding. It's much early. Even though 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.960 it feels like so much has happened, it's really much 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.560 earlier in the proceedings. So, you know, I don't think 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:31.440 there's an expectation that Judge Chuckkins would refuse to dismiss 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.760 it at this point. But whether she calls them in 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.559 for some other reason, you know, it's with final questions. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.600 I guess we could wait and see that. It would 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.720 be very unusual to have her do that. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.800 Now, what about Jack Smith? There are reports that he 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.640 is going to step down before Trump takes. 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:52.240 Office, So our reporting has signaled that he is expected 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:56.400 to resign from his position as special counsel before Trump 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.640 is sworn in. Whether he would leave the Justice Department 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.199 all together, you know, sort of what form that takes exactly, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.679 we're not sure and waiting to see sort of what 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.280 he announces he'll do. You know, we're waiting to also 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.679 see if he finishes a report on his investigation on 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.800 his work, what happens with that, so you know, today 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.640 it doesn't walk out the door and never come. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:18.280 Back, you think. 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.520 So we're not quite sure. But you know, even if 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.160 he were to stay in the Justice Department in some 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.400 capacity in the next few weeks. There's little doubt that 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:27.599 Trump would fire him immediately. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.160 Well, Trump has promised that, and he's also said that 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.000 Smith should be thrown out of the country. That seems 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.080 beyond even his power as a president. But isn't Smith 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:41.600 required to file a report on his charging decisions to 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.240 the Attorney General before he leaves office? 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.599 You know, I'd have to go back and check their regulations, 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.160 but the expectation is that you will write a report 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.000 and submit that to the Attorney General to close out 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.400 his office, sort of administrative task that he also has 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.400 to do. We'll get a final budget report as he 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.040 closes down on the office, you know. I guess another 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.320 unanswered question is if there were other investigative threads that 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.960 they were pursuing, whether they would send those files, you know, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.440 send them off to a US attorney office for further investigation, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.800 or to redirect them like we saw with Special Council Luller, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.800 where you know, certain issues were redirected to US attorney 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.440 offices after he left. So, you know, I think this 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.480 is not little astically heard from Jacksmith. But I think 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.840 depending on timing, you know, he files his report before 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:36.720 inauguration and the pressure will be on Attorney General's Garland 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.040 to release that ice effect. But we just haven't heard 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.320 one way or the other sort of what's next, And 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:42.640 so we. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.000 Tell us about the push from Texas to get access 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:47.880 to Smith's files. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.360 There's a case pending from the Texas Attorney General's office. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.880 Kim Paxton has been a long time ally of Trump, 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.200 trying to get Jacksmith's files and release more of his 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.559 work and what happened in that office. I think there's 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.160 also the next beat will be like the investigation into 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.280 the investigation of Jack Smith. 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.720 It seems to be never ending, and one has to 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.160 wonder about what parts of Jack Smith's investigation the Texas 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.400 Attorney General would release to the public. Some more to come, 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.120 Thanks so much, Zoe. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Zoe Tillman. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.960 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. Federal prosecutors 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.440 are presenting their case in the trial of the longest 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.480 serving House leader in the country, Michael Madigan. I'm June 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.960 Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg Dan. 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.800 Yes, Mike Madigan speaker, How are you? I I'm good. 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.600 How are you? Michael Madigan, the longest serving House leader 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.520 of any state in US history. Is an almost mythical 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.920 figure in Illinois politics. His three decade rain earned him 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.000 the nickname the Velvet Hammer because of the way he 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:58.200 led the Illinois House and extracted fealty from its members. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.439 If you can get near you, mind that your client 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:03.960 is only Mike Madigan. 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:07.320 Now, the eighty two year old Madigan is on trial 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:12.199 for bribery, extortion, and racketeering for allegedly running a criminal 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.520 enterprise to add to his vast political power, get business 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.559 for his private law firm and reward his friends and allies. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.240 Government attorneys are building their case against him with witnesses 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:29.560 who've made plea deals and war wires, documents, emails, and 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.800 hundreds of wiretap conversations like these. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.680 I generally never refer to the speaker. I just say 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.480 our friend. So if you could say our friend, no 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:38.920 one really knows what we're talking about. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:40.080 Speak of that. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.840 Hey, micaeh, Hey, will you tell the speaker I took 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.840 care of burials and Pennonovic Did you just throw away 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:48.600 that note? Yep. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.800 For those outside of Illinois who don't know about Madigan, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.080 you know, tell us a little bit about his background. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.240 Why you was nicknamed the velvet hammer. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.760 So Mike Madigan is the longest serving speaker of the 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:06.400 Illinois House in history, and in addition to the extraordinary 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.679 political power and influence that he wielded from that position, 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.319 he also had a private practice of laws. The indictment 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.760 charges that he used both of these positions to retain 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.520 and consolidate his power. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.960 So the prosecutors are alleging that he used his political 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.400 power in offices as a criminal enterprise. I mean, what 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.240 exactly are they charging there? 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.439 Yes, that's exactly right, a criminal enterprise which is casually 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:42.400 referred to as the Madigan enterprise. And in brief, it 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.320 boils down to what is at the heart of all 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:50.680 public corruption cases, which is precisely money and power, the 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.400 abuse of public office for private gain, and the abuse 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:59.120 of power to retain and consolidate power. The evidence that's 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.440 been introduced in the case so far focuses on Commed, 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:09.920 the public utility here in Illinois, and Madigan's essentially leveraging 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:17.120 commed dependence on his political power, depending on Madigan's support 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:22.080 for legislation and policy that are favorable to Commed in 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:28.320 exchange for a variety of things. This is one large 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:29.680 issue among others. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.480 His co defendant, Mike McClain, And he's already been convicted 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.600 on public corruption charges. Why are they trying to show 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:39.760 that he's an agent of Madigan? 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.520 So Mike mclan, as you say, has already been convicted 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.320 in a separate trial. That trial is referred to as 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.960 the trial of the comment for in this instance, Mike 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.320 McLean is charged as a co defendant and an agent 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.640 of the former speaker Mike Madigan. And under an agency 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:04.760 theory of liabil Mike Madigan's knowledge, his criminal intent, and 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:09.080 the actions that he directs are all imputed to Mike 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.880 McLean as his agent. This is the theory of the prosecution. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.080 Of course, mister McLean contests it. 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.800 Let's talk about the defense. Is the defense that this 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.400 is what politicians do? Is it that defense that we've 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.720 heard a million times? Or is there more to it? 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.360 That is essentially the defense. It is a defense that 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.680 has gained credence in recent years with a series of 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:37.240 Supreme Court rulings that have held in essence that federal 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.880 prosecutors have been overly ambitious with their interpretation of public 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:49.640 corruption laws and have swept into their prosecutions instances of 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:56.360 politics as usual constituent services, and the type of deal making, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:01.080 which is how the sausage is made. And in the 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.800 words of Chief Justice John Roberts in the case of 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.520 the former Virginia governor Bob McDonald, it may be unseemly, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:11.680 but that doesn't mean it's criminal. 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.520 The Supreme Court has been pairing back public corruption law 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:21.320 since the McDonald case, and last June, in the Snyder case, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.720 the Justices undid the conviction of a former Indiana mayor 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:30.480 who received thirteen thousand dollars from a trucking company after 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.200 it was awarded city contracts. In this case, how are 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.960 the prosecutors getting around the Snyder decision? 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.640 Well, First of all, the Snyder case involved a very 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:47.480 particular statute. It involved a charge of illegal gratuities, which 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.280 the prosecution argued was included in eighteen US could six 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.560 sixty six, which is a federal law that applies to 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.720 state and local bribery. The Supreme Court Court ruled in 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:02.080 Snyder that that interpretation was in correct, that six sixty 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.080 six encompasses quid pro quol bribery, but not illegal gratuities, 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.160 which was the theory of liability in Snyder. The Madigan 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:15.119 case by contrast, is not a theory of illegal gratuities. Rather, 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.600 it is a criminal enterprise. So rico is charged along 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.480 with wire fraud and actual bribery. Bribery is considered one 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.880 of the necessary predicate offenses that can be used as 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.480 a basis to charge a racketeering enterprise. 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.800 Are quid pro quo allegations key to the government's case 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.280 against Madigan and McLain. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.679 A theory of quid pro quo liability, yes, But the 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.959 reason that quid pro quo, although it's a commonly used 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:52.280 term in the vernacular for corruption, is not a legal 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:57.120 term of art, is because in truth, corrupt acts are 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.840 most often far more complex than the concepts of this 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.280 for that. So, in the case that's been brought by 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:10.240 the government against Madigan, what is alleged is that essentially 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.960 comed owed Mike Madigan. The company was indebted to him 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:22.680 for numerous times he had helped them benefit with legislation 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.840 that was favorable to the company. So you're in a 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:34.480 situation where the defendant already has influenced power, clout and leverage. 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.960 What is alleged is that Mike Madgan in turn then 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:44.000 use that to demand favors from coned, So it is 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.199 a quid pro quo, but it's not a simple or 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:48.520 isolated transaction. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:53.880 So the government has all kinds of evidence. People who 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.679 wore wires, the wire tapped, they have documents. What do 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.840 you see as the longest evidence they have so far. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.879 All of the government's evidence has strengths, and it also 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:12.480 has ways in which it can be attacked by defense counsel, 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.879 and it is being attacked by defense counsel. Government witnesses 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:21.560 who are so called cooperating witnesses, including those who have 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:26.040 negotiated flea deals, of course, have received the benefit from 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:30.080 the government. These are individuals who have negotiated a flee 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:33.679 deal in exchange for their cooperation with the government, and 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:38.360 they have an expectation of a reduced sentence. Therefore, Council 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.360 for the Defense will be cross examining them on their bias, 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.280 on their incentive to curry favor with the government, and 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.600 arguably what they will certainly argue to the jury is 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:54.439 that those witnesses are therefore not credible, not to be believed. Recordings, 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.160 of course, are not of witnesses who may or may 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.439 not have an incentive to shade the truth on the 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.680 witness stand. A famous Chicago defense attorney once said, you 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.080 don't need to believe me, Just believe mister Panasonic. You 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.239 press play, and the recording speaks for itself. Now, in 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:20.400 some instances, these recordings are grainy, of lower quality, may 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.960 not be the smoking gun that they have been made 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.879 out to be. And so I am certain that the 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:34.080 jury is listening very carefully when the videos and audio 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:38.159 recordings are played to see if the content actually lines 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.600 up with what the government promised the evidence would show 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.320 in its opening statement, because you can bet that if 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:50.159 it doesn't, when the defense makes its closing argument, it 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.880 will point out the ways in which the government's case 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:53.520 fell short. 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.760 Some of the recordings seemed pretty stunning, one where MacLean said, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.680 your client is only mag Madigan. It's not the Democratic Party, 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.440 it's not anybody who hired you, it's not your mom 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:09.199 and dad. But the defense, I assume, can frame that 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:10.160 in a different. 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.800 Way, certainly, and you can see both sides of that coin. 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:19.399 On the one hand, it speaks to Speaker Madigan's really 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:25.760 extraordinary influence in a way that certainly undermines a democratic 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:30.639 or meritocratic process. On the other hand, you can say, well, yeah, 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.840 who is the leading Democrat in Illinois. He was conflated 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.320 with the Democratic Party, and MacLean is just making clear 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:43.760 that Madigan's agenda is the overwhelming agenda that we'll get 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.560 through in Springfield, and indeed, for many years that was 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:47.040 the case. 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.120 Is there any indication that Madigan might take the stand. 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.600 There has been no indication as of yet. He will 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.080 need to make that decision when the government rests its case. 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.400 The government is still, of course presenting its case in chief, 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.600 and the burden of proof remains with the government at 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:10.040 all times. The Speaker, of course, is entitled to a 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.720 presumption of innocence and also entitled to a right to 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.440 remain silent. So if he chooses not to take the stand, 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.800 the jury must draw no inference from that, and the 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:25.680 government cannot comment on it. Speaker Madigan is obviously an 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:30.320 intelligent and shrewd person, and I imagine that he's listening 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.760 very closely along with his skilled defense counsel as the 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:39.560 evidence comes in. If you're asking me to place a wager, 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.600 I will wager that he is not going to take 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:43.119 a stand. 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.960 The prosecution would certainly have a lot to cross examine 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.080 him on if he did. As you mentioned, there were 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.159 guilty verdicts against Commed's former top executive and three of 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.840 its former lobbyists. We're conspiring to bribe Madigan. But then 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.440 a trial on charges at form At and t Illinois 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:06.520 President Paul Lacchiatza illegally influenced the X speaker resulted in 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:09.879 a hung jury. Was there a problem in that later 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:14.520 trial that the government might encounter in a Madigan trial? 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:17.520 So the problem with that case is the problem with 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:21.000 all public corruption and indeed white collar cases. These are 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:26.040 specific intent crimes, and the government must prove corrupt intent 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:31.040 beyond a reasonable doubt. So not just the actions themselves, 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.600 but the individual's state of mind. And when one can 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:39.360 argue that a state of mind is politics as usual, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.240 and you do hear that line in the Madigan trial 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.000 as well. This is how things are done in Illinois. 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:49.280 This is politics as usual that can undermine evidence that 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:53.280 goes to corrupt intent, especially when it is circumstantial evidence. 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:58.840 And that's another point. These individuals are smart, they are sophisticated. 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:02.800 You will never here then use the term quid pro quo. 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.880 You will never hear then use the word bribe. And 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:13.239 so frequently the evidence in corruption cases is circumstantial, and 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:17.320 jurors are asked to draw reasonable inferences from the evidence. 0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.200 So access the prostitutions of public corruption cases are hard? 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:24.800 Are they harder in Illinois? Because the city is known 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.840 from the days of mayor daily and you've had several 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:33.560 I think Illinois governors who've been prosecuted. I mean, are 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:38.440 the citizens of Chicago sort of inord to it? You know? 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:40.680 Are they just sort of stealed against it? 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:45.439 Well, the social science literature related to popular perceptions of 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:50.720 corruption indicates the opposite. Actually, public corruption is deeply unpopular 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.960 with ordinary citizens, and indeed it is something that motivates 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.680