WEBVTT - Civil War is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:22.516 Pushkin. I'm Mave Higgins, and this is Solvable Interviews with 0:00:22.556 --> 0:00:26.196 the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 0:00:26.236 --> 0:00:32.756 biggest problems. My solvable is to find the ways to 0:00:33.156 --> 0:00:38.356 end civil armed conflicts and to find reconciliation. That's Juan 0:00:38.436 --> 0:00:42.316 Manuel Santos, former President of Columbia, who was awarded the 0:00:42.356 --> 0:00:46.036 Nobel Peace Prize in two sixteen for his role in 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:50.996 ending more than fifty years of conflict in that country. Now, 0:00:51.036 --> 0:00:53.916 as you can tell from my accent, i'm irit. I 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:56.476 grew up in the Republic of Ireland, which was far 0:00:56.596 --> 0:00:59.836 from the violence and the terror happening up in Northern 0:00:59.876 --> 0:01:03.076 Ireland at the time, and I was too young to 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:06.196 vote in the referendum for the Good Friday Agreement, which 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:10.676 was this incredible development in the peace process between Ireland 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:13.996 and Britain and Northern Ireland. But I have to say 0:01:14.036 --> 0:01:17.636 I remember so much relief and just such huge joy 0:01:18.276 --> 0:01:21.556 all over the country when the agreement was ratified and 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:25.716 the violence was over. Now in Ireland it hasn't been 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:30.316 a perfect piece, but certainly lives were saved and sanity 0:01:30.556 --> 0:01:33.796 was restored to this region that was in complete turmoil. 0:01:34.556 --> 0:01:37.916 So I was reading this UN report and one hundred 0:01:37.996 --> 0:01:41.436 years ago, whenever there was war, ninety percent of the 0:01:41.516 --> 0:01:46.516 casualties were military personnel and ten percent were civilians, mainly 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:50.636 women and children. And now that number has totally reversed. 0:01:50.676 --> 0:01:55.156 In a war today, ninety percent of casualties are civilians. 0:01:56.436 --> 0:01:59.716 To understand how difficult it is to end a civil 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:03.436 war or any armed conflict, really, perhaps it's useful to 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:07.596 look at the conflicts ongoing today. There's this ongoing conflict 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:11.076 mapping project. It's called the Armed Conflict Location and Event 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:15.076 Data Project, and this year, just up until May of 0:02:15.156 --> 0:02:19.956 twenty nineteen, they reported over eight thousand deaths in places 0:02:19.996 --> 0:02:25.556 like India, Syria, Yemen and Nigeria, and across the world overall, 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:32.476 violence causes one point six million deaths every year. Conflicts 0:02:32.516 --> 0:02:36.276 in Syria and in Nigeria and in Yemen today, sometimes 0:02:36.316 --> 0:02:39.636 I think they look intractable, like how on earth could 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.756 we even hope to see an end to these terrible times? 0:02:43.476 --> 0:02:47.116 But other wars have ended, Other conflicts like the one 0:02:47.156 --> 0:02:50.396 in Northern Ireland, they seemed endless too, but they did end. 0:02:51.316 --> 0:02:54.236 And our guests today knows more than most about just 0:02:54.396 --> 0:02:58.476 how to make peace As President of Colombia, he was 0:02:58.516 --> 0:03:02.076 instrumental in bringing to a close a decades long conflict 0:03:02.116 --> 0:03:06.436 between the government, paramilitary groups and communist guerrillas like the 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:11.036 Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, who you probably know as FARK. 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:15.396 Millions of Colombians were displaced through the years of the conflict, 0:03:15.556 --> 0:03:19.516 and two hundred and twenty thousand people were killed. So 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:25.276 how did Columbia put through? Former President Santos discusses how 0:03:25.756 --> 0:03:28.956 he's here with Ann Applebaum, who's reported from Columbia in 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:33.116 the past herself. There are tons of fascinating insights in here, 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:37.196 so let's get into it. One manual, Santos, when you 0:03:37.316 --> 0:03:40.956 became president of Columbia, you were faced with one of 0:03:40.996 --> 0:03:46.156 the longest running, most insoluble civil wars in the world. 0:03:46.996 --> 0:03:50.156 When you begin thinking about how to solve a problem 0:03:50.196 --> 0:03:53.556 like that, it seems intractable, it can't end. How do 0:03:53.596 --> 0:03:56.276 you break the problem down? What do you think of first? 0:03:56.556 --> 0:04:01.236 What was your first instinct? My first instinct was to 0:04:01.276 --> 0:04:04.916 try to get a complete picture of the problem and 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:10.276 try to generate the necessary conditions to solve it. Many 0:04:10.316 --> 0:04:14.036 times this is not done, and when you don't have 0:04:15.156 --> 0:04:20.676 the necessary conditions at your disposal. It is impossible to 0:04:20.716 --> 0:04:24.396 solve a conflict of the nature. What do you mean 0:04:24.436 --> 0:04:26.956 by conditions? What exactly were you talking about? What? What 0:04:27.676 --> 0:04:33.396 was it wasn't known. I studied why my predecessors failed, 0:04:33.636 --> 0:04:37.956 because all of them tried to negotiate peace. And I 0:04:37.996 --> 0:04:41.956 studied more than seventeen conflicts around the world. Some of 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:47.276 them were successful in being ended, some of them not. 0:04:47.676 --> 0:04:52.756 But I studied each and every one of these conflicts 0:04:52.796 --> 0:04:57.276 and extracted what was applicable to our conflict and the 0:04:57.356 --> 0:05:00.476 lessons that I should learn of what to do and 0:05:00.516 --> 0:05:04.316 what not to do. And when I had those conditions ready, 0:05:04.956 --> 0:05:10.156 I then started negotiations. Conditions like you have to have 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:13.876 the military balance of power in the favor of the state. 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:19.116 As long as the insurgency the grillers think they can 0:05:19.196 --> 0:05:25.076 win by using violence, it's very difficult to negotiate peace. 0:05:26.156 --> 0:05:31.956 You need the commanders of the insurgency to personally consider 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:35.476 that for them on a personal level, it's better to 0:05:35.516 --> 0:05:39.636 negotiate a peace agreement than to continue the war. And 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:43.756 something that is very very necessary in today's world. Any 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:47.596 asymmetric war in any part of the world needs the 0:05:47.716 --> 0:05:52.796 support of the region and if necessary, of the international 0:05:52.796 --> 0:05:58.636 community to reach an agreement. So these conditions were identified 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:04.476 and then created. Because conditions don't appear just out of 0:06:04.516 --> 0:06:06.996 the blue. You have to create those conditions, and we 0:06:07.076 --> 0:06:09.556 created those conditions in the case of Columbia. And what 0:06:09.596 --> 0:06:12.236 did you do first, What was your first effort in 0:06:12.236 --> 0:06:15.876 that direction? Well, my first effort was to strengthen our 0:06:15.876 --> 0:06:19.276 military and I had the opportunity of doing that because 0:06:19.316 --> 0:06:23.916 I was Minister of Defense before being president, and also 0:06:24.636 --> 0:06:29.436 to use the carrot and the stick with the military commanders, 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:34.116 telling them that they personally would be better off if 0:06:34.156 --> 0:06:37.996 they negotiate peace. And something that I did which was 0:06:38.076 --> 0:06:42.636 quite controversial at the moment, was making peace with our 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:47.756 neighbors in order to seek their support. Charles in Venezuela, 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:51.556 who's not popular in Colombia, was very unpopular and we 0:06:51.916 --> 0:06:55.876 didn't have diplomatic relations or even trade relations with Venezuela 0:06:55.916 --> 0:06:58.756 at that time, and I made peace with him. Also 0:06:58.836 --> 0:07:03.796 with President Correa and Ecuador, the south of Colombia, we 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:08.436 did not have diplomatic or even trade relations with either. 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:12.316 We needed them to support the peace process, otherwise the 0:07:12.356 --> 0:07:15.756 peace process would not be successful. So I made peace 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:18.356 with both of them. And with other neighbors, which we 0:07:19.116 --> 0:07:21.956 did not have it at that time, in good relationships 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:26.076 Brazil and Peru and the rest of that America. I 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:28.076 know that one of the other things you did is 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:32.356 that you sought to give the rebel leaders some incentive 0:07:32.516 --> 0:07:35.796 to join the political process in Colombia, in other words, 0:07:35.796 --> 0:07:38.716 to bring somehow bring them in, allow them to have 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:41.716 a political party, allow them to be elected. And this, 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:44.836 of course was also controversial because many people feel that 0:07:44.876 --> 0:07:47.436 these are criminals and they should be in jail. Can 0:07:47.476 --> 0:07:49.796 you explain why you thought that was necessary and whether 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:54.436 you think it worked well. Every peace process boils down 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:58.916 to where you draw the line between peace and justice. 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:03.796 No matter where you draw the line, there will always 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:08.476 be some people from one side seeking more justice or 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:12.036 from the other side seeking more peace. So to make 0:08:12.276 --> 0:08:16.236 peace is not very popular, and this is an experience 0:08:16.276 --> 0:08:21.876 that all peacemakers have had during the recent history. Also, 0:08:22.316 --> 0:08:26.236 in a process of this sort, what are the guerrillas 0:08:26.676 --> 0:08:30.396 fighting for. They want to change the country, They want 0:08:30.636 --> 0:08:35.036 political power, and you have to give them a way out, 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:38.076 a dignified way out, if you want them to lay 0:08:38.116 --> 0:08:40.916 down their arms. And the way to do that is 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:46.036 to offer them a space in our democracy, and almost 0:08:46.076 --> 0:08:50.756 every peace process around the world has to give the 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:56.356 counterpart some guarantees that they can continue their struggle without 0:08:56.476 --> 0:09:00.476 violence through democratic means, and this is an essential part 0:09:00.556 --> 0:09:02.476 of any agreements. Yes, this is what was done in 0:09:02.516 --> 0:09:05.716 Northern Ireland as well. Absolutely, and every other conflict in 0:09:05.756 --> 0:09:10.716 the world has been solved by giving the counterparts some 0:09:10.796 --> 0:09:14.716 kind of guarantees in their democratic life. Otherwise they will 0:09:14.796 --> 0:09:19.396 never give up their arms unless you defeat them military 0:09:19.796 --> 0:09:22.996 and exterminate them, which is something impossible in the case 0:09:22.996 --> 0:09:27.516 of Columbia, it was impossible. Then you have to negotiate, 0:09:27.956 --> 0:09:32.396 and negotiations mean making transactions. In the case of Colombia, 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:37.036 for example, I gave them at ten places in our Congress, 0:09:37.116 --> 0:09:40.156 five in the Senate, five in the House of Representatives 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:45.716 to guarantee them for three period representation in Congress. And 0:09:46.236 --> 0:09:48.356 they were satisfied with that, and I think that was 0:09:48.876 --> 0:09:52.356 an essential part of the agreement. When you do that, though, 0:09:52.516 --> 0:09:56.076 don't you risk and I know this was this did 0:09:56.116 --> 0:10:00.396 happen in Colombia, don't you risk losing public support? The 0:10:00.476 --> 0:10:03.436 public is angry at these people. They're terrorists, They've caused 0:10:03.436 --> 0:10:06.636 all this damage they've killed people, they forced people to 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.716 leave the country. They've been very destruct So how do 0:10:09.716 --> 0:10:12.036 you bring the public along and convince them that this 0:10:12.156 --> 0:10:14.956 is trade off between peace and justice is worth it. 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:18.636 When I became president, I was the most popular politician 0:10:18.636 --> 0:10:23.116 in Colombia. I had more than eighty five percent favorability. 0:10:23.196 --> 0:10:27.196 As soon as I talked about negotiating peace, I was warned, 0:10:27.356 --> 0:10:30.596 this will cost you your political capital. People will not 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:35.836 understand that you are very effective. Hawk was elected because 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:39.116 you were successful making war. You now sit down with 0:10:39.156 --> 0:10:42.756 the terrorists to make peace. But it's the only way 0:10:43.076 --> 0:10:47.556 to finish the war through a negotiation, and so you 0:10:47.676 --> 0:10:52.516 have to be able to do what is correct, even 0:10:52.556 --> 0:10:56.836 though it's unpopular. You have to be able to sacrifice 0:10:56.876 --> 0:11:00.556 your political capital if you want to achieve your objectives. 0:11:00.596 --> 0:11:02.876 And I was warned that was going to happen, and 0:11:02.956 --> 0:11:10.196 it happened. My favorability went down dramatically. But I have 0:11:10.436 --> 0:11:14.316 the great satisfaction of ending the war with the FARC 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:19.196 after fifty years, and that, of course, is made it 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:22.756 worth while in every respect. I was in Columbia last 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:26.076 year and was traveling with a friend who was doing 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:28.396 a project. We met lots of young people who were 0:11:28.796 --> 0:11:32.116 entrepreneurs and who were building new things in Columbia, and 0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:34.436 I did have a feeling that this is a country 0:11:34.476 --> 0:11:37.116 where there was a lot of optimism. People kept beginning 0:11:37.196 --> 0:11:39.436 sentences by saying, now that we have peace, now that 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:41.756 the war is over, now we can do things that 0:11:41.796 --> 0:11:45.636 we couldn't do before. But at the same time, they 0:11:45.716 --> 0:11:49.796 weren't at all enthusiastic about the deal, about the rebels 0:11:49.916 --> 0:11:54.156 entering the political process. It was a very strange contrast, 0:11:54.596 --> 0:11:57.036 you know, as if they were half convinced that this 0:11:57.116 --> 0:11:59.116 was a good thing, and they saw why it was beneficial, 0:11:59.196 --> 0:12:03.116 but they didn't feel optimistic about the process itself. This 0:12:03.196 --> 0:12:07.756 happens in every peace process. The people like peace, but 0:12:07.956 --> 0:12:11.316 they don't like to pay the price for peace. The 0:12:11.476 --> 0:12:15.596 price in this case was to see the guerrillas terrorists 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:20.836 who had committed tremendous atrocity the war crimes in Congress. 0:12:20.956 --> 0:12:22.996 A lot of people, of course, don't like it. I 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:25.996 don't like it, but it's the necessary price you have 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:29.596 to pay in order to have peace. I prefer to 0:12:29.636 --> 0:12:34.236 have them in Congress shouting and making speeches, and to 0:12:34.356 --> 0:12:37.556 have them in the jungles can napping and putting bonds, 0:12:38.116 --> 0:12:41.316 How do you bring society around, what is the do 0:12:41.316 --> 0:12:45.236 you have advice for your successors? How do you convince 0:12:45.316 --> 0:12:47.036 people that this is a good way to end the conduct? 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.876 Because I know some people are not convinced. One of 0:12:49.876 --> 0:12:54.916 the most difficult problems that you confront in a process 0:12:54.916 --> 0:12:58.356 of this order is to tell the people that they 0:12:58.436 --> 0:13:02.316 have to learn how to forgive, how to reconciliate. And 0:13:02.356 --> 0:13:06.036 this is very hard. To tell a mother whose daughter 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:11.636 or son have been killed raped to forgive the perpetrators. 0:13:11.716 --> 0:13:16.396 This is very, very difficult. But I learned from the 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:21.476 victims that the victims, and this is a very strange paradox, 0:13:21.516 --> 0:13:24.916 were the ones who at the end were more enthusiastic 0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:27.956 about ending the war because they did not want other 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:30.836 people to suffer what they suffered. For me, that was 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:35.556 a lesson in life. I never expected that. On the contrary, 0:13:35.556 --> 0:13:39.836 people who had never experienced war or was not affected 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:43.396 by war were the ones who were more critical of 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:47.396 the peace process. But this is something which is normally 0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:52.236 in many other processes. I studied them. For example, in 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:56.476 the case of Israel and Palestine, Prime Minister Rabine, who 0:13:56.556 --> 0:13:59.996 paid with his life the peace processes. He did with 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:03.756 the Palestinians. Experienced that from the Israeli people who did 0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:08.516 not want the Palestinians to have a say in Israeli politics. 0:14:09.476 --> 0:14:13.596 This is a common denominator of almost every piece process. 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:18.636 Mandela was very much criticized by his own people who 0:14:18.676 --> 0:14:22.436 are being too lenient. But as he said, if you 0:14:22.516 --> 0:14:26.796 want peace, you need to make transactions. Did you meet 0:14:26.836 --> 0:14:31.476 with victims? Yes, I had a marvelous experience. A professor 0:14:31.556 --> 0:14:34.996 from Harvard went and visited me at the beginning of 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:38.236 my government and said, you are embarking in a very, 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:43.436 very difficult trip. I advise you, when you're sad, when 0:14:43.476 --> 0:14:46.156 you're about to throw in the towel, to talk to 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:49.476 the victims. Tell you their dramas, what they have gone through. 0:14:50.076 --> 0:14:52.956 That will re energize you. And that's what I did. 0:14:53.516 --> 0:14:57.956 I had as a discipline to talk to victims every 0:14:57.996 --> 0:15:01.756 week or every two weeks, to different victims, and that 0:15:01.916 --> 0:15:06.076 served through the process with six years, as a tremendous 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:10.716 re energizer. Every time I talked to a victim, I 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:15.316 came out saying I have to continue, I have to persevere, 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:18.556 and they, the victims, were the first ones to tell 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:23.596 me President don't throw into towel, continue persevere. What was 0:15:23.636 --> 0:15:27.316 your experience like of speaking to the rebels whom you'd 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:31.356 fought against for many years? You need to put yourself 0:15:32.076 --> 0:15:36.316 in their shoes. Empathy is very important in any negotiation. 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:41.196 What is it that they want? What are their concerns, 0:15:41.316 --> 0:15:45.116 what are their ideals, their objectives. If you don't have 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:49.036 an idea of what they want, it's very difficult to negotiate. 0:15:49.636 --> 0:15:54.156 So I came into the negotiation with tremendous apprehension I 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:59.676 was their worst enemy. But I made it as one 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:03.916 of my objectives to build trust that they started trusting 0:16:03.956 --> 0:16:07.276 me and I started trusting them. Of course, I put 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:13.796 many sort of measures throughout the process to confirm that 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:17.316 they were negotiating good faith, and I think they did 0:16:17.356 --> 0:16:19.836 the same with me. And at the end, the trust 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:22.276 was there that I was negotiating good faith and that 0:16:22.396 --> 0:16:25.916 they were negotiating good faith, and that was essential. From 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:29.476 your experience, do you think you can generalize you learned 0:16:29.516 --> 0:16:34.076 from other conflicts which you studied. Are there lessons that 0:16:34.116 --> 0:16:35.916 you would like to pass on to others When you 0:16:35.916 --> 0:16:39.156 look around the world, When you look at you at Israel, Palestine, 0:16:39.316 --> 0:16:43.196 or at some of the other other civil wars that continue. Yes, 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:48.876 there are many lessons. First, that every conflict can have 0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:53.356 a solution. Five years ago, six years ago, nobody in 0:16:53.396 --> 0:16:57.996 Colombia thought that a piece agreement with the farm was possible, 0:16:58.676 --> 0:17:02.996 and people say that we made possible the impossible. And 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:07.156 that is a lesson for any conflict if you find 0:17:07.676 --> 0:17:11.996 the correct condition and you find the correct moment, because 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:15.996 there are moments in a process which are essential to 0:17:16.476 --> 0:17:20.956 have a successful negotiations. I think every conflict in the 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:24.716 world can be solved. Any other specific lessons, I mean, 0:17:24.796 --> 0:17:27.636 is it is it just is it just being optimistic 0:17:27.796 --> 0:17:31.996 or there's or their specific To solve any any conflict, 0:17:32.076 --> 0:17:37.436 you you need to know what the counterpart really wants. 0:17:37.836 --> 0:17:43.516 You need to be able to convince the international in 0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:48.276 today's world, the international community, of a solution to this conflict. 0:17:49.276 --> 0:17:52.796 You need to know where you draw your red lines, 0:17:52.916 --> 0:17:58.116 but where you can give to the counterpart what is 0:17:58.156 --> 0:18:01.356 necessary to obtain peace. For example, in the case of 0:18:01.396 --> 0:18:05.916 Colombia and in the case of today's conflicts, there's no 0:18:06.036 --> 0:18:10.836 way you can have a solution with total impunity because 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:15.956 all countries are are subject to the Rome Treaty, which 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:20.116 is a treaty that was negotiated by the intrans community 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:26.556 precisely to allow peaceful solutions of armed conflicts. In that 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:32.356 Rome Statute, the International Criminal Court was born, was created, 0:18:33.236 --> 0:18:39.436 and the transitional justice was in a way invented, and 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:44.116 the negotiation in the case of Colombia and in any case, 0:18:44.676 --> 0:18:50.156 was go and negotiate as much justice as you can 0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:54.716 without sacrificing peace. And this is the nutshell of any 0:18:54.716 --> 0:19:00.596 conflict today. You cannot have total amnesty for war criminals 0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:04.676 or people who have committed the terrorist acts that are 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:10.276 considered crimes against humanity, But how to punish them, how 0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:14.516 to judge them, is an essential part of any conflict today. 0:19:14.916 --> 0:19:17.756 In the case of Colombia, it's the first time that 0:19:18.036 --> 0:19:21.716 the two parts sat down and negotiated a special tribunal 0:19:22.516 --> 0:19:28.436 to apply transitional justice. And this is being showed as 0:19:28.476 --> 0:19:32.836 an example for other conflicts. From no One, lots of 0:19:32.836 --> 0:19:36.036 people say whenever you approach a country in the throes 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:38.636 of a civil war or a difficult conflict, I'm thinking 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:42.236 of Libya, I'm thinking of several other particularly difficult places. 0:19:42.276 --> 0:19:45.116 People from those places will say, oh, our country is 0:19:45.156 --> 0:19:48.396 so specific. Our conflict is to do with our history. 0:19:49.036 --> 0:19:51.076 You know, there aren't any lessons we can learn from 0:19:51.076 --> 0:19:54.596 the outside. Sounds like you don't agree with that. No, 0:19:54.836 --> 0:19:59.476 because we're all human beings, we all have concerns, we 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:04.396 all want to live in peace, and you get any 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:10.036 conflict we had, a religious conflict, ethnic conflict. These conflicts 0:20:10.276 --> 0:20:14.356 can be solved when there's goodwill from both parts and 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:19.556 a conviction that peace is better than the war. There 0:20:19.556 --> 0:20:22.236 are a lot of countries that have now have very 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:26.516 deep divisions and deep polarization, which doesn't necessarily lead to 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:29.756 civil war violence. One might even say that the United 0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:34.076 States right now is very bitterly divided and polarized. Do 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:36.636 you have advice for Americans about how they can think 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:41.396 about overcoming these deep civic divides. Well, this is a 0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:45.436 problem that is present almost everywhere in the world, this 0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:51.276 deep polarization. That's when emotions take over and arguments are 0:20:51.356 --> 0:20:57.196 left to one side. We must try to recuperate the 0:20:57.236 --> 0:21:04.276 importance of the arguments of dialogue and not simply react 0:21:04.476 --> 0:21:08.596 with your emotions. This is much easily said than done, 0:21:09.356 --> 0:21:13.236 but it is again a necessary condition to try to 0:21:13.316 --> 0:21:17.316 diminish the polarization that we're seeing in the US. In Colombia. 0:21:17.556 --> 0:21:21.236 In Europe, for example, what is happening in Europe due 0:21:21.316 --> 0:21:25.356 to the problem with migration. When you analyze the problem 0:21:25.436 --> 0:21:29.516 migration in Europe, this is a very very small problem 0:21:29.836 --> 0:21:34.716 to create such political reaction, and you have to be 0:21:34.796 --> 0:21:38.996 able to explain to the public opinion that the problem 0:21:39.116 --> 0:21:41.476 is not as big as many people are trying to 0:21:41.636 --> 0:21:45.476 present it. The problem is minimal. I will give you 0:21:45.916 --> 0:21:50.876 a statistic. In Colombia, we have today many more Venezuelan 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:54.356 refugees than the whole amount of refugees that have gone 0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:56.996 into Europe. We had been able to cope with that. 0:21:57.756 --> 0:22:00.916 How is it possible that in Europe governments are falling 0:22:00.956 --> 0:22:04.436 because of that? It's simply an example to show you 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:08.596 that many of the problems that have caused this polarization 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:13.916 are not that big, and the big challenges to try 0:22:13.956 --> 0:22:19.916 to explain why this is so and try to reduce 0:22:19.996 --> 0:22:24.996 this polarization. Are there examples of ordinary Colombians or groups 0:22:24.996 --> 0:22:30.076 of Colombians who contributed to the peace process by their actions? 0:22:29.956 --> 0:22:33.676 Are there examples? You can give, oh, many, many examples. 0:22:35.116 --> 0:22:39.116 I will tell you one specific example. Her name is 0:22:39.396 --> 0:22:47.916 Pastora Mita. Her son was tortured and then killed. Two 0:22:47.956 --> 0:22:52.956 weeks later, somebody went into her house. He was wounded. 0:22:53.516 --> 0:22:59.916 He took care of him, and when he recovered he 0:22:59.956 --> 0:23:04.876 saw a photograph of her with her son, and he said, 0:23:05.116 --> 0:23:07.156 I am sorry to tell you I was the one 0:23:07.196 --> 0:23:10.116 who killed him, and I was one who tortured him. 0:23:11.196 --> 0:23:16.156 And she reacted in a most spectacular way, positive way, 0:23:16.716 --> 0:23:20.956 saying thank you for telling me, because I will forgive 0:23:20.996 --> 0:23:25.236 you and this will liberate me from my hate. That 0:23:25.436 --> 0:23:31.436 story for me was so powerful. Liberate me from my hate. 0:23:32.516 --> 0:23:35.516 This is what the world needs to be liberated from hate. 0:23:36.116 --> 0:23:40.356 And this specific example, I can mention a hundred in 0:23:40.396 --> 0:23:44.676 the war in Colombia, people who really are the heroes 0:23:44.716 --> 0:23:48.396 of this peace process. That's why when I received the 0:23:48.836 --> 0:23:51.996 Peace Prize and Nobel laureate, I said, this is not 0:23:52.116 --> 0:23:57.436 for me, It's for the victims, liberation from hate. It's 0:23:57.476 --> 0:24:02.076 such a beautiful idea and a possible reality too. But 0:24:02.236 --> 0:24:06.396 keeping the peace is always ongoing work. Since one Manuel 0:24:06.476 --> 0:24:10.596 Santos ended his term as president, his successor Van Duquet 0:24:11.076 --> 0:24:14.916 has actually undone much of his work. Some dissident fark 0:24:14.916 --> 0:24:18.876 rebels started to fight again, and lawlessness prevails in some 0:24:18.916 --> 0:24:21.996 parts of the country. And sadly, the number of social 0:24:22.036 --> 0:24:25.996 activists being killed is on the rise. As we've heard, 0:24:26.076 --> 0:24:31.356 achieving piece is incredibly difficult, and maintaining pieces possibly even 0:24:31.436 --> 0:24:35.316 more so. Columbia has a difficult road ahead, but things 0:24:35.316 --> 0:24:38.476 are undeniably better there now than the darkest days of 0:24:38.516 --> 0:24:42.436 the conflict, and their example is really want to learn from. 0:24:44.076 --> 0:24:48.836 Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and the Rockefeller Foundation, 0:24:48.956 --> 0:24:52.956 with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, Laura Sheeter, and 0:24:53.076 --> 0:24:56.956 Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer is 0:24:57.036 --> 0:25:01.996 Neia LaBelle, Research by Sheer, Vincent, engineering by Jason Gambrel 0:25:02.076 --> 0:25:06.516 and the great folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed 0:25:06.516 --> 0:25:10.676 by Pascal Wise and special thanks to Taylor Heather Fine, 0:25:10.876 --> 0:25:15.676 Julia Barton, Carli Mgliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. You 0:25:15.676 --> 0:25:19.796 can learn more about solving Today's biggest problems at Rockefeller 0:25:19.876 --> 0:25:24.596 Foundation dot org, slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, Now go 0:25:24.836 --> 0:25:25.276 solve it.