1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:22,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Mave Higgins, and this is Solvable Interviews with 2 00:00:22,556 --> 00:00:26,196 Speaker 1: the world's most innovative thinkers working to solve the world's 3 00:00:26,236 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 1: biggest problems. My solvable is to find the ways to 4 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:38,356 Speaker 1: end civil armed conflicts and to find reconciliation. That's Juan 5 00:00:38,436 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 1: Manuel Santos, former President of Columbia, who was awarded the 6 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:46,036 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize in two sixteen for his role in 7 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 1: ending more than fifty years of conflict in that country. Now, 8 00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 1: as you can tell from my accent, i'm irit. I 9 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:56,476 Speaker 1: grew up in the Republic of Ireland, which was far 10 00:00:56,596 --> 00:00:59,836 Speaker 1: from the violence and the terror happening up in Northern 11 00:00:59,876 --> 00:01:03,076 Speaker 1: Ireland at the time, and I was too young to 12 00:01:03,196 --> 00:01:06,196 Speaker 1: vote in the referendum for the Good Friday Agreement, which 13 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:10,676 Speaker 1: was this incredible development in the peace process between Ireland 14 00:01:10,676 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 1: and Britain and Northern Ireland. But I have to say 15 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: I remember so much relief and just such huge joy 16 00:01:18,276 --> 00:01:21,556 Speaker 1: all over the country when the agreement was ratified and 17 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 1: the violence was over. Now in Ireland it hasn't been 18 00:01:25,716 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: a perfect piece, but certainly lives were saved and sanity 19 00:01:30,556 --> 00:01:33,796 Speaker 1: was restored to this region that was in complete turmoil. 20 00:01:34,556 --> 00:01:37,916 Speaker 1: So I was reading this UN report and one hundred 21 00:01:37,996 --> 00:01:41,436 Speaker 1: years ago, whenever there was war, ninety percent of the 22 00:01:41,516 --> 00:01:46,516 Speaker 1: casualties were military personnel and ten percent were civilians, mainly 23 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 1: women and children. And now that number has totally reversed. 24 00:01:50,676 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: In a war today, ninety percent of casualties are civilians. 25 00:01:56,436 --> 00:01:59,716 Speaker 1: To understand how difficult it is to end a civil 26 00:01:59,756 --> 00:02:03,436 Speaker 1: war or any armed conflict, really, perhaps it's useful to 27 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: look at the conflicts ongoing today. There's this ongoing conflict 28 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:11,076 Speaker 1: mapping project. It's called the Armed Conflict Location and Event 29 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:15,076 Speaker 1: Data Project, and this year, just up until May of 30 00:02:15,156 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, they reported over eight thousand deaths in places 31 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 1: like India, Syria, Yemen and Nigeria, and across the world overall, 32 00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 1: violence causes one point six million deaths every year. Conflicts 33 00:02:32,516 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: in Syria and in Nigeria and in Yemen today, sometimes 34 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:39,636 Speaker 1: I think they look intractable, like how on earth could 35 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 1: we even hope to see an end to these terrible times? 36 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: But other wars have ended, Other conflicts like the one 37 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:50,396 Speaker 1: in Northern Ireland, they seemed endless too, but they did end. 38 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 1: And our guests today knows more than most about just 39 00:02:54,396 --> 00:02:58,476 Speaker 1: how to make peace As President of Colombia, he was 40 00:02:58,516 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: instrumental in bringing to a close a decades long conflict 41 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 1: between the government, paramilitary groups and communist guerrillas like the 42 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 1: Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, who you probably know as FARK. 43 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:15,396 Speaker 1: Millions of Colombians were displaced through the years of the conflict, 44 00:03:15,556 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 1: and two hundred and twenty thousand people were killed. So 45 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: how did Columbia put through? Former President Santos discusses how 46 00:03:25,756 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 1: he's here with Ann Applebaum, who's reported from Columbia in 47 00:03:28,996 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 1: the past herself. There are tons of fascinating insights in here, 48 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: so let's get into it. One manual, Santos, when you 49 00:03:37,316 --> 00:03:40,956 Speaker 1: became president of Columbia, you were faced with one of 50 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:46,156 Speaker 1: the longest running, most insoluble civil wars in the world. 51 00:03:46,996 --> 00:03:50,156 Speaker 1: When you begin thinking about how to solve a problem 52 00:03:50,196 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: like that, it seems intractable, it can't end. How do 53 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:56,276 Speaker 1: you break the problem down? What do you think of first? 54 00:03:56,556 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 1: What was your first instinct? My first instinct was to 55 00:04:01,276 --> 00:04:04,916 Speaker 1: try to get a complete picture of the problem and 56 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 1: try to generate the necessary conditions to solve it. Many 57 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:14,036 Speaker 1: times this is not done, and when you don't have 58 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:20,676 Speaker 1: the necessary conditions at your disposal. It is impossible to 59 00:04:20,716 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: solve a conflict of the nature. What do you mean 60 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 1: by conditions? What exactly were you talking about? What? What 61 00:04:27,676 --> 00:04:33,396 Speaker 1: was it wasn't known. I studied why my predecessors failed, 62 00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:37,956 Speaker 1: because all of them tried to negotiate peace. And I 63 00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 1: studied more than seventeen conflicts around the world. Some of 64 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 1: them were successful in being ended, some of them not. 65 00:04:47,676 --> 00:04:52,756 Speaker 1: But I studied each and every one of these conflicts 66 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 1: and extracted what was applicable to our conflict and the 67 00:04:57,356 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: lessons that I should learn of what to do and 68 00:05:00,516 --> 00:05:04,316 Speaker 1: what not to do. And when I had those conditions ready, 69 00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 1: I then started negotiations. Conditions like you have to have 70 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 1: the military balance of power in the favor of the state. 71 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:19,116 Speaker 1: As long as the insurgency the grillers think they can 72 00:05:19,196 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 1: win by using violence, it's very difficult to negotiate peace. 73 00:05:26,156 --> 00:05:31,956 Speaker 1: You need the commanders of the insurgency to personally consider 74 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: that for them on a personal level, it's better to 75 00:05:35,516 --> 00:05:39,636 Speaker 1: negotiate a peace agreement than to continue the war. And 76 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:43,756 Speaker 1: something that is very very necessary in today's world. Any 77 00:05:43,956 --> 00:05:47,596 Speaker 1: asymmetric war in any part of the world needs the 78 00:05:47,716 --> 00:05:52,796 Speaker 1: support of the region and if necessary, of the international 79 00:05:52,796 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 1: community to reach an agreement. So these conditions were identified 80 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: and then created. Because conditions don't appear just out of 81 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 1: the blue. You have to create those conditions, and we 82 00:06:07,076 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 1: created those conditions in the case of Columbia. And what 83 00:06:09,596 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 1: did you do first, What was your first effort in 84 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:15,876 Speaker 1: that direction? Well, my first effort was to strengthen our 85 00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:19,276 Speaker 1: military and I had the opportunity of doing that because 86 00:06:19,316 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: I was Minister of Defense before being president, and also 87 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:29,436 Speaker 1: to use the carrot and the stick with the military commanders, 88 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:34,116 Speaker 1: telling them that they personally would be better off if 89 00:06:34,156 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 1: they negotiate peace. And something that I did which was 90 00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:42,636 Speaker 1: quite controversial at the moment, was making peace with our 91 00:06:42,636 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 1: neighbors in order to seek their support. Charles in Venezuela, 92 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 1: who's not popular in Colombia, was very unpopular and we 93 00:06:51,916 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 1: didn't have diplomatic relations or even trade relations with Venezuela 94 00:06:55,916 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: at that time, and I made peace with him. Also 95 00:06:58,836 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 1: with President Correa and Ecuador, the south of Colombia, we 96 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:08,436 Speaker 1: did not have diplomatic or even trade relations with either. 97 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,316 Speaker 1: We needed them to support the peace process, otherwise the 98 00:07:12,356 --> 00:07:15,756 Speaker 1: peace process would not be successful. So I made peace 99 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 1: with both of them. And with other neighbors, which we 100 00:07:19,116 --> 00:07:21,956 Speaker 1: did not have it at that time, in good relationships 101 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 1: Brazil and Peru and the rest of that America. I 102 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:28,076 Speaker 1: know that one of the other things you did is 103 00:07:28,076 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 1: that you sought to give the rebel leaders some incentive 104 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 1: to join the political process in Colombia, in other words, 105 00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:38,716 Speaker 1: to bring somehow bring them in, allow them to have 106 00:07:38,756 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 1: a political party, allow them to be elected. And this, 107 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:44,836 Speaker 1: of course was also controversial because many people feel that 108 00:07:44,876 --> 00:07:47,436 Speaker 1: these are criminals and they should be in jail. Can 109 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: you explain why you thought that was necessary and whether 110 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: you think it worked well. Every peace process boils down 111 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:58,916 Speaker 1: to where you draw the line between peace and justice. 112 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,796 Speaker 1: No matter where you draw the line, there will always 113 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 1: be some people from one side seeking more justice or 114 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: from the other side seeking more peace. So to make 115 00:08:12,276 --> 00:08:16,236 Speaker 1: peace is not very popular, and this is an experience 116 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 1: that all peacemakers have had during the recent history. Also, 117 00:08:22,316 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 1: in a process of this sort, what are the guerrillas 118 00:08:26,676 --> 00:08:30,396 Speaker 1: fighting for. They want to change the country, They want 119 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 1: political power, and you have to give them a way out, 120 00:08:35,116 --> 00:08:38,076 Speaker 1: a dignified way out, if you want them to lay 121 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 1: down their arms. And the way to do that is 122 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:46,036 Speaker 1: to offer them a space in our democracy, and almost 123 00:08:46,076 --> 00:08:50,756 Speaker 1: every peace process around the world has to give the 124 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:56,356 Speaker 1: counterpart some guarantees that they can continue their struggle without 125 00:08:56,476 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 1: violence through democratic means, and this is an essential part 126 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:02,476 Speaker 1: of any agreements. Yes, this is what was done in 127 00:09:02,516 --> 00:09:05,716 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland as well. Absolutely, and every other conflict in 128 00:09:05,756 --> 00:09:10,716 Speaker 1: the world has been solved by giving the counterparts some 129 00:09:10,796 --> 00:09:14,716 Speaker 1: kind of guarantees in their democratic life. Otherwise they will 130 00:09:14,796 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 1: never give up their arms unless you defeat them military 131 00:09:19,796 --> 00:09:22,996 Speaker 1: and exterminate them, which is something impossible in the case 132 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 1: of Columbia, it was impossible. Then you have to negotiate, 133 00:09:27,956 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: and negotiations mean making transactions. In the case of Colombia, 134 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 1: for example, I gave them at ten places in our Congress, 135 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 1: five in the Senate, five in the House of Representatives 136 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 1: to guarantee them for three period representation in Congress. And 137 00:09:46,236 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 1: they were satisfied with that, and I think that was 138 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: an essential part of the agreement. When you do that, though, 139 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 1: don't you risk and I know this was this did 140 00:09:56,116 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: happen in Colombia, don't you risk losing public support? The 141 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 1: public is angry at these people. They're terrorists, They've caused 142 00:10:03,436 --> 00:10:06,636 Speaker 1: all this damage they've killed people, they forced people to 143 00:10:06,716 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: leave the country. They've been very destruct So how do 144 00:10:09,716 --> 00:10:12,036 Speaker 1: you bring the public along and convince them that this 145 00:10:12,156 --> 00:10:14,956 Speaker 1: is trade off between peace and justice is worth it. 146 00:10:15,276 --> 00:10:18,636 Speaker 1: When I became president, I was the most popular politician 147 00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:23,116 Speaker 1: in Colombia. I had more than eighty five percent favorability. 148 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:27,196 Speaker 1: As soon as I talked about negotiating peace, I was warned, 149 00:10:27,356 --> 00:10:30,596 Speaker 1: this will cost you your political capital. People will not 150 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 1: understand that you are very effective. Hawk was elected because 151 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: you were successful making war. You now sit down with 152 00:10:39,156 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 1: the terrorists to make peace. But it's the only way 153 00:10:43,076 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: to finish the war through a negotiation, and so you 154 00:10:47,676 --> 00:10:52,516 Speaker 1: have to be able to do what is correct, even 155 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:56,836 Speaker 1: though it's unpopular. You have to be able to sacrifice 156 00:10:56,876 --> 00:11:00,556 Speaker 1: your political capital if you want to achieve your objectives. 157 00:11:00,596 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 1: And I was warned that was going to happen, and 158 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:10,196 Speaker 1: it happened. My favorability went down dramatically. But I have 159 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:14,316 Speaker 1: the great satisfaction of ending the war with the FARC 160 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 1: after fifty years, and that, of course, is made it 161 00:11:19,236 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: worth while in every respect. I was in Columbia last 162 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:26,076 Speaker 1: year and was traveling with a friend who was doing 163 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:28,396 Speaker 1: a project. We met lots of young people who were 164 00:11:28,796 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs and who were building new things in Columbia, and 165 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:34,436 Speaker 1: I did have a feeling that this is a country 166 00:11:34,476 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: where there was a lot of optimism. People kept beginning 167 00:11:37,196 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 1: sentences by saying, now that we have peace, now that 168 00:11:39,516 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 1: the war is over, now we can do things that 169 00:11:41,796 --> 00:11:45,636 Speaker 1: we couldn't do before. But at the same time, they 170 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:49,796 Speaker 1: weren't at all enthusiastic about the deal, about the rebels 171 00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:54,156 Speaker 1: entering the political process. It was a very strange contrast, 172 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 1: you know, as if they were half convinced that this 173 00:11:57,116 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: was a good thing, and they saw why it was beneficial, 174 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:03,116 Speaker 1: but they didn't feel optimistic about the process itself. This 175 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:07,756 Speaker 1: happens in every peace process. The people like peace, but 176 00:12:07,956 --> 00:12:11,316 Speaker 1: they don't like to pay the price for peace. The 177 00:12:11,476 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: price in this case was to see the guerrillas terrorists 178 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 1: who had committed tremendous atrocity the war crimes in Congress. 179 00:12:20,956 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 1: A lot of people, of course, don't like it. I 180 00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: don't like it, but it's the necessary price you have 181 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 1: to pay in order to have peace. I prefer to 182 00:12:29,636 --> 00:12:34,236 Speaker 1: have them in Congress shouting and making speeches, and to 183 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: have them in the jungles can napping and putting bonds, 184 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 1: How do you bring society around, what is the do 185 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:45,236 Speaker 1: you have advice for your successors? How do you convince 186 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: people that this is a good way to end the conduct? 187 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,876 Speaker 1: Because I know some people are not convinced. One of 188 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 1: the most difficult problems that you confront in a process 189 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:58,356 Speaker 1: of this order is to tell the people that they 190 00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: have to learn how to forgive, how to reconciliate. And 191 00:13:02,356 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: this is very hard. To tell a mother whose daughter 192 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:11,636 Speaker 1: or son have been killed raped to forgive the perpetrators. 193 00:13:11,716 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 1: This is very, very difficult. But I learned from the 194 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:21,476 Speaker 1: victims that the victims, and this is a very strange paradox, 195 00:13:21,516 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: were the ones who at the end were more enthusiastic 196 00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:27,956 Speaker 1: about ending the war because they did not want other 197 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: people to suffer what they suffered. For me, that was 198 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: a lesson in life. I never expected that. On the contrary, 199 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:39,836 Speaker 1: people who had never experienced war or was not affected 200 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:43,396 Speaker 1: by war were the ones who were more critical of 201 00:13:43,476 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: the peace process. But this is something which is normally 202 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:52,236 Speaker 1: in many other processes. I studied them. For example, in 203 00:13:52,236 --> 00:13:56,476 Speaker 1: the case of Israel and Palestine, Prime Minister Rabine, who 204 00:13:56,556 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 1: paid with his life the peace processes. He did with 205 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:03,756 Speaker 1: the Palestinians. Experienced that from the Israeli people who did 206 00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:08,516 Speaker 1: not want the Palestinians to have a say in Israeli politics. 207 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 1: This is a common denominator of almost every piece process. 208 00:14:13,756 --> 00:14:18,636 Speaker 1: Mandela was very much criticized by his own people who 209 00:14:18,676 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 1: are being too lenient. But as he said, if you 210 00:14:22,516 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 1: want peace, you need to make transactions. Did you meet 211 00:14:26,836 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 1: with victims? Yes, I had a marvelous experience. A professor 212 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 1: from Harvard went and visited me at the beginning of 213 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: my government and said, you are embarking in a very, 214 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:43,436 Speaker 1: very difficult trip. I advise you, when you're sad, when 215 00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 1: you're about to throw in the towel, to talk to 216 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: the victims. Tell you their dramas, what they have gone through. 217 00:14:50,076 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 1: That will re energize you. And that's what I did. 218 00:14:53,516 --> 00:14:57,956 Speaker 1: I had as a discipline to talk to victims every 219 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 1: week or every two weeks, to different victims, and that 220 00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:06,076 Speaker 1: served through the process with six years, as a tremendous 221 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 1: re energizer. Every time I talked to a victim, I 222 00:15:10,836 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 1: came out saying I have to continue, I have to persevere, 223 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:18,556 Speaker 1: and they, the victims, were the first ones to tell 224 00:15:18,596 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 1: me President don't throw into towel, continue persevere. What was 225 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 1: your experience like of speaking to the rebels whom you'd 226 00:15:27,356 --> 00:15:31,356 Speaker 1: fought against for many years? You need to put yourself 227 00:15:32,076 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: in their shoes. Empathy is very important in any negotiation. 228 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 1: What is it that they want? What are their concerns, 229 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 1: what are their ideals, their objectives. If you don't have 230 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 1: an idea of what they want, it's very difficult to negotiate. 231 00:15:49,636 --> 00:15:54,156 Speaker 1: So I came into the negotiation with tremendous apprehension I 232 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 1: was their worst enemy. But I made it as one 233 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 1: of my objectives to build trust that they started trusting 234 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 1: me and I started trusting them. Of course, I put 235 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 1: many sort of measures throughout the process to confirm that 236 00:16:13,836 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 1: they were negotiating good faith, and I think they did 237 00:16:17,356 --> 00:16:19,836 Speaker 1: the same with me. And at the end, the trust 238 00:16:19,956 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: was there that I was negotiating good faith and that 239 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:25,916 Speaker 1: they were negotiating good faith, and that was essential. From 240 00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:29,476 Speaker 1: your experience, do you think you can generalize you learned 241 00:16:29,516 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 1: from other conflicts which you studied. Are there lessons that 242 00:16:34,116 --> 00:16:35,916 Speaker 1: you would like to pass on to others When you 243 00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 1: look around the world, When you look at you at Israel, Palestine, 244 00:16:39,316 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 1: or at some of the other other civil wars that continue. Yes, 245 00:16:43,236 --> 00:16:48,876 Speaker 1: there are many lessons. First, that every conflict can have 246 00:16:48,956 --> 00:16:53,356 Speaker 1: a solution. Five years ago, six years ago, nobody in 247 00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 1: Colombia thought that a piece agreement with the farm was possible, 248 00:16:58,676 --> 00:17:02,996 Speaker 1: and people say that we made possible the impossible. And 249 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:07,156 Speaker 1: that is a lesson for any conflict if you find 250 00:17:07,676 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: the correct condition and you find the correct moment, because 251 00:17:11,996 --> 00:17:15,996 Speaker 1: there are moments in a process which are essential to 252 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:20,956 Speaker 1: have a successful negotiations. I think every conflict in the 253 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:24,716 Speaker 1: world can be solved. Any other specific lessons, I mean, 254 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 1: is it is it just is it just being optimistic 255 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:31,996 Speaker 1: or there's or their specific To solve any any conflict, 256 00:17:32,076 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: you you need to know what the counterpart really wants. 257 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 1: You need to be able to convince the international in 258 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 1: today's world, the international community, of a solution to this conflict. 259 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:52,796 Speaker 1: You need to know where you draw your red lines, 260 00:17:52,916 --> 00:17:58,116 Speaker 1: but where you can give to the counterpart what is 261 00:17:58,156 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 1: necessary to obtain peace. For example, in the case of 262 00:18:01,396 --> 00:18:05,916 Speaker 1: Colombia and in the case of today's conflicts, there's no 263 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:10,836 Speaker 1: way you can have a solution with total impunity because 264 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: all countries are are subject to the Rome Treaty, which 265 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: is a treaty that was negotiated by the intrans community 266 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 1: precisely to allow peaceful solutions of armed conflicts. In that 267 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:32,356 Speaker 1: Rome Statute, the International Criminal Court was born, was created, 268 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:39,436 Speaker 1: and the transitional justice was in a way invented, and 269 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:44,116 Speaker 1: the negotiation in the case of Colombia and in any case, 270 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: was go and negotiate as much justice as you can 271 00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 1: without sacrificing peace. And this is the nutshell of any 272 00:18:54,716 --> 00:19:00,596 Speaker 1: conflict today. You cannot have total amnesty for war criminals 273 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 1: or people who have committed the terrorist acts that are 274 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: considered crimes against humanity, But how to punish them, how 275 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: to judge them, is an essential part of any conflict today. 276 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 1: In the case of Colombia, it's the first time that 277 00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:21,716 Speaker 1: the two parts sat down and negotiated a special tribunal 278 00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 1: to apply transitional justice. And this is being showed as 279 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:32,836 Speaker 1: an example for other conflicts. From no One, lots of 280 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 1: people say whenever you approach a country in the throes 281 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 1: of a civil war or a difficult conflict, I'm thinking 282 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: of Libya, I'm thinking of several other particularly difficult places. 283 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 1: People from those places will say, oh, our country is 284 00:19:45,156 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: so specific. Our conflict is to do with our history. 285 00:19:49,036 --> 00:19:51,076 Speaker 1: You know, there aren't any lessons we can learn from 286 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: the outside. Sounds like you don't agree with that. No, 287 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:59,476 Speaker 1: because we're all human beings, we all have concerns, we 288 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:04,396 Speaker 1: all want to live in peace, and you get any 289 00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 1: conflict we had, a religious conflict, ethnic conflict. These conflicts 290 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 1: can be solved when there's goodwill from both parts and 291 00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:19,556 Speaker 1: a conviction that peace is better than the war. There 292 00:20:19,556 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 1: are a lot of countries that have now have very 293 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:26,516 Speaker 1: deep divisions and deep polarization, which doesn't necessarily lead to 294 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 1: civil war violence. One might even say that the United 295 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:34,076 Speaker 1: States right now is very bitterly divided and polarized. Do 296 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:36,636 Speaker 1: you have advice for Americans about how they can think 297 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:41,396 Speaker 1: about overcoming these deep civic divides. Well, this is a 298 00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:45,436 Speaker 1: problem that is present almost everywhere in the world, this 299 00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: deep polarization. That's when emotions take over and arguments are 300 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:57,196 Speaker 1: left to one side. We must try to recuperate the 301 00:20:57,236 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 1: importance of the arguments of dialogue and not simply react 302 00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 1: with your emotions. This is much easily said than done, 303 00:21:09,356 --> 00:21:13,236 Speaker 1: but it is again a necessary condition to try to 304 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:17,316 Speaker 1: diminish the polarization that we're seeing in the US. In Colombia. 305 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:21,236 Speaker 1: In Europe, for example, what is happening in Europe due 306 00:21:21,316 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 1: to the problem with migration. When you analyze the problem 307 00:21:25,436 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 1: migration in Europe, this is a very very small problem 308 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:34,716 Speaker 1: to create such political reaction, and you have to be 309 00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:38,996 Speaker 1: able to explain to the public opinion that the problem 310 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 1: is not as big as many people are trying to 311 00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:45,476 Speaker 1: present it. The problem is minimal. I will give you 312 00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 1: a statistic. In Colombia, we have today many more Venezuelan 313 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 1: refugees than the whole amount of refugees that have gone 314 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 1: into Europe. We had been able to cope with that. 315 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: How is it possible that in Europe governments are falling 316 00:22:00,956 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: because of that? It's simply an example to show you 317 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 1: that many of the problems that have caused this polarization 318 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:13,916 Speaker 1: are not that big, and the big challenges to try 319 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: to explain why this is so and try to reduce 320 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 1: this polarization. Are there examples of ordinary Colombians or groups 321 00:22:24,996 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 1: of Colombians who contributed to the peace process by their actions? 322 00:22:29,956 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 1: Are there examples? You can give, oh, many, many examples. 323 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:39,116 Speaker 1: I will tell you one specific example. Her name is 324 00:22:39,396 --> 00:22:47,916 Speaker 1: Pastora Mita. Her son was tortured and then killed. Two 325 00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:52,956 Speaker 1: weeks later, somebody went into her house. He was wounded. 326 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: He took care of him, and when he recovered he 327 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: saw a photograph of her with her son, and he said, 328 00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: I am sorry to tell you I was the one 329 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: who killed him, and I was one who tortured him. 330 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:16,156 Speaker 1: And she reacted in a most spectacular way, positive way, 331 00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: saying thank you for telling me, because I will forgive 332 00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:25,236 Speaker 1: you and this will liberate me from my hate. That 333 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:31,436 Speaker 1: story for me was so powerful. Liberate me from my hate. 334 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 1: This is what the world needs to be liberated from hate. 335 00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 1: And this specific example, I can mention a hundred in 336 00:23:40,396 --> 00:23:44,676 Speaker 1: the war in Colombia, people who really are the heroes 337 00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 1: of this peace process. That's why when I received the 338 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:51,996 Speaker 1: Peace Prize and Nobel laureate, I said, this is not 339 00:23:52,116 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 1: for me, It's for the victims, liberation from hate. It's 340 00:23:57,476 --> 00:24:02,076 Speaker 1: such a beautiful idea and a possible reality too. But 341 00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:06,396 Speaker 1: keeping the peace is always ongoing work. Since one Manuel 342 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 1: Santos ended his term as president, his successor Van Duquet 343 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:14,916 Speaker 1: has actually undone much of his work. Some dissident fark 344 00:24:14,916 --> 00:24:18,876 Speaker 1: rebels started to fight again, and lawlessness prevails in some 345 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:21,996 Speaker 1: parts of the country. And sadly, the number of social 346 00:24:22,036 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 1: activists being killed is on the rise. As we've heard, 347 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 1: achieving piece is incredibly difficult, and maintaining pieces possibly even 348 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:35,316 Speaker 1: more so. Columbia has a difficult road ahead, but things 349 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,476 Speaker 1: are undeniably better there now than the darkest days of 350 00:24:38,516 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: the conflict, and their example is really want to learn from. 351 00:24:44,076 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 1: Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and the Rockefeller Foundation, 352 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: with production by Laura Hyde, Hester Kant, Laura Sheeter, and 353 00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:56,956 Speaker 1: Ruth Barnes from Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's executive producer is 354 00:24:57,036 --> 00:25:01,996 Speaker 1: Neia LaBelle, Research by Sheer, Vincent, engineering by Jason Gambrel 355 00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:06,516 Speaker 1: and the great folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed 356 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 1: by Pascal Wise and special thanks to Taylor Heather Fine, 357 00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:15,676 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Carli Mgliori, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. You 358 00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: can learn more about solving Today's biggest problems at Rockefeller 359 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:24,596 Speaker 1: Foundation dot org, slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, Now go 360 00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:25,276 Speaker 1: solve it.