Speaker 1: Listeners, beware, Later in this podcast we'll be sticking a
Speaker 1: needle in a little green frog. We'll also report on
Speaker 1: people conducting experiments on themselves. We are not advocating you
Speaker 1: try any of this at home. Right right, right right.
Speaker 1: What if the tools of modern science were so accessible
Speaker 1: that you could cure yourself of your own disease? Welcome
Speaker 1: to Prognosis, a podcast about health, medical technology, and the
Speaker 1: mind blowing innovation now underway in some of the least
Speaker 1: expected places. I'm your host, Michelle fay Cortes. Today we're
Speaker 1: taking a peek into the world of bio hacking, where
Speaker 1: self taught scientists are experimenting with glow in the dark, beer,
Speaker 1: insulin producing yeast, and even do it yourself cures for cancer.
Speaker 1: There's a history of scientific innovations shrinking from big, expensive
Speaker 1: and inaccessible to personalized and widely used. Just look at
Speaker 1: computers in the nineteen seventies. They took up entire rooms
Speaker 1: and pretty much only professionals had access to them. Now
Speaker 1: millions of people carry pocket sized computers also known as smartphones, everywhere.
Speaker 1: A growing contingent of self taught scientists, called biohackers, believe
Speaker 1: that healthcare may be following a very similar path. Things
Speaker 1: like say, genetic engineering are still the territory of experts,
Speaker 1: scientists and universities, pharmaceutical companies, and the government, but so
Speaker 1: called biohackers are beginning to experiment a home. So far,
Speaker 1: all this community of d I wires has accomplished is
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of veiled experiments. There's a guy in
Speaker 1: Mississippi that's been trying to make bioluminescent puppies for years.
Speaker 1: No glowing dogs yet, and others trying to engineer him
Speaker 1: help to grow bigger muscles without having to spend hours
Speaker 1: at the gym. He's no more buff than he was
Speaker 1: when he started. Probably the most spectacular failure yet was
Speaker 1: last February at a conference, the CEO of a bootstrapped
Speaker 1: bio hacker startup got up on stage and announced that
Speaker 1: he had herpes. Then he stripped down to his boxers
Speaker 1: and injected himself with the gene therapy cure that was
Speaker 1: almost certain to not work. But these determined bio hackers
Speaker 1: are growing in number and in experience. They're sharing ideas
Speaker 1: online and off about ways to make science and medicine
Speaker 1: more accessible to regular folks. They prophesies one day, Just
Speaker 1: like I carry around a computer in my pocket, I
Speaker 1: might have the tools in my kitchen to concoct to
Speaker 1: cure tailored to my own genetics. Here's Bloomberg's health reporter
Speaker 1: Kristin Brown with the story. Recently, I found myself in
Speaker 1: a West Oakland duplex watching as a sedated tree frog
Speaker 1: got a genetic cocktail injected into its left leg. Hold
Speaker 1: it like that, remember, and hold his leg down and
Speaker 1: just go into the muscle like that. Inject into the
Speaker 1: leg and see its swell a little bit from the fluid.
Speaker 1: So you're just injecting one leg. The goal was to
Speaker 1: make the frog's muscles grow bigger than usual, to make
Speaker 1: the frog get well ripped. To do this, the frog
Speaker 1: was getting an injection of a d N a mixture
Speaker 1: containing a gene called full of statin, which seems to
Speaker 1: play a role in muscle gross So the full of
Speaker 1: statin is it Is it likely that it would just
Speaker 1: change the one leg or that it would be It's
Speaker 1: possible both right, Because they're so small, it can get
Speaker 1: into the blood stream really easy, so it's likely that
Speaker 1: it can change the whole body. That's our measuring weight.
Speaker 1: But Also, when you inject into the muscle, it should
Speaker 1: affect that muscle the most. So we're looking at that
Speaker 1: muscle to see how that muscle changes, you know, getting
Speaker 1: multiple measurements to see what he's done. This guy better.
Speaker 1: The mad scientist behind this whole experiment is Josiah Zaner.
Speaker 1: I first met Josiah a few years back. He had
Speaker 1: just left a job at NASA to start a company
Speaker 1: called the Odin, selling cheap science supplies over the Internet
Speaker 1: to d I Y bio enthusiasts. Now, Josiah is sort
Speaker 1: of a famous science stumpman. He rose to fame after
Speaker 1: a talkie gave last year at a biotech conference provocatively
Speaker 1: titled A step by step Guide to Genetically Modifying Yourself
Speaker 1: with Crisper. Crisper is a much buzzed about gene editing
Speaker 1: technology which allows scientists to cut and paste tiny bits
Speaker 1: of DNA. To demonstrate how Crisper might are going to
Speaker 1: human he injected himself with Crisper right in front of
Speaker 1: the audience. I was actually there, and it was pretty crazy.
Speaker 1: Crisper had never been used in humans before in the US,
Speaker 1: and it certainly hadn't been directly injected into anybody's body.
Speaker 1: The stick inspired some copycats, like that CEO Michelle mentioned
Speaker 1: who injected himself with a harpies vaccine on stage. It
Speaker 1: also caught the attention of the Food and Drug Administration.
Speaker 1: The f d A didn't really like that Josiah was
Speaker 1: selling kids to would be bio hackers online. Jose I
Speaker 1: wanted to usher in a d I y science revolution
Speaker 1: by making science seem accessible and edgy, but his tactics
Speaker 1: had sort of backfired. You know. At first, I thought, well,
Speaker 1: the way we could do this is let's just like
Speaker 1: self experimentation. And I tried that and it did not
Speaker 1: turn out like I imagined it. So then all right,
Speaker 1: let's change, let's try something else. He didn't just want
Speaker 1: to grab headlines. He wanted to help people and to
Speaker 1: teach people how to do science so that one day
Speaker 1: maybe they could help themselves. So last summer, Josiah sent
Speaker 1: me a message on Facebook asking me if I had
Speaker 1: any interest in learning how to genetically engineer frogs. Josie's mind,
Speaker 1: teaching people to experiment on animals was one step closer
Speaker 1: to teaching people how to experiment on themselves, which brings
Speaker 1: us to August Christ Hello come on in. How's it going.
Speaker 1: That's Esther, one of the Odin's employees. Where are the frogs?
Speaker 1: Hey here? Oh my gosh, they're so cute. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: take a look at these ones. These are super adorable.
Speaker 1: God just sprouted LIGs. The Odin's headquarters looks a little
Speaker 1: like a science e frat live stream video games playing
Speaker 1: the background. The fridges stocked with red bull and capri son,
Speaker 1: and right now the headquarters is filled with dozens and
Speaker 1: dozens of tree frogs, all in various stages of development.
Speaker 1: You're the ones have already been experimented on, so we
Speaker 1: keep them over here, And these ones have yet to
Speaker 1: be experimented or anything on, so we keep them. What
Speaker 1: kind of frogs are they again? So they're green tree frogs.
Speaker 1: It's high less scen area. They're just like really inexpensive
Speaker 1: kind of cool. They look nice and really common, so
Speaker 1: that's why we chose them. But Josiah's dream is a
Speaker 1: lot bigger than buff amphibians. Within the d i Y biocommunity,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of hope that making cutting edge science
Speaker 1: more accessible will eventually also make medicine cheaper and more accessible.
Speaker 1: Take insulin it's only manufactured by a few pharmaceutical companies
Speaker 1: and it's really expensive, but for millions of people, it's
Speaker 1: also a life saving medication. So one collective of bio
Speaker 1: Hacker is based out of a community bio lab in
Speaker 1: Oakland has been working to engineer yeast so that it
Speaker 1: produces insulin. The idea is to have ventually develop a
Speaker 1: safe and f d A approved method to either allow
Speaker 1: people to make their own medicine or at least provided
Speaker 1: to diabetics for very cheap. Josiah's first big d i
Speaker 1: Y experiment was health related to Since his teen years,
Speaker 1: he had been plagued by digestive issues. He had tried
Speaker 1: treatment after treatment, but nothing seemed to work. So it
Speaker 1: took matters into his own hands. He gave himself a
Speaker 1: fecal transplant. Yes, that is exactly what it sounds like,
Speaker 1: and he led a reporter write about it. After that,
Speaker 1: email started pouring in from other people who were sick
Speaker 1: and either frustrated with doctors or out of options. They'd
Speaker 1: read stories about things like Crisper and the News and
Speaker 1: all its promise of simply snipping away the disease causing
Speaker 1: letters in a person's genetic code. They wanted to know
Speaker 1: whether there might be a d I Y fix for
Speaker 1: them too. Here's where the frogs come in. You can't
Speaker 1: be afraid of grabbing them too type they're they're pretty robust.
Speaker 1: You you won't. Actually, you gotta like corn them against
Speaker 1: the wall and just grab them. I don't want to
Speaker 1: hurt them, won't You won't. Don't worry. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: they're really get them all right, go in. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: It's like literally the hardest part of the whole joes
Speaker 1: I experimented on himself to hopefully open people's eyes to
Speaker 1: the promise of d I Y science. But he realized
Speaker 1: that if you're going to teach people how to make
Speaker 1: a geen therapy for themselves, first you have to teach
Speaker 1: them how to test it out, in this case on frogs.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I found the whole thing pretty creepy.
Speaker 1: Before injecting the frogs with anything, Josia knocks them out.
Speaker 1: They look limp, like they're dead. They seem like they're
Speaker 1: slowing down. Does it work like that? Does it make
Speaker 1: them slow down? First? Yep, it's taking in aesthetic right,
Speaker 1: so we'll definitely Yeah, they're still going tell of them
Speaker 1: go a different pig. Yeah, one of them looks like
Speaker 1: he's down already. Over the past few years, genetic engineering
Speaker 1: has gotten a lot easier. Josiah actually does have a PhD,
Speaker 1: but you don't need one to get your hands on
Speaker 1: things like DNA. Jose I ordered the fullest at in
Speaker 1: DNA off the Internet, along with everything else for the experiment,
Speaker 1: and had it shipped to the office. Then he just
Speaker 1: mixes it all up in his lab. So you put
Speaker 1: the DNA in these tubes. There's four of them, would
Speaker 1: for each frog, and now you're adding the polymer that
Speaker 1: will help get into the frog. And then what's next
Speaker 1: next is too way and inject them way in measurement
Speaker 1: inject There's a long history of self experimentation in science,
Speaker 1: and not just in the days before being a scientist
Speaker 1: required getting a PhD. Nobel Prize winner Barry James Marshall
Speaker 1: ingested a type of bacteria to successfully demonstrate its role
Speaker 1: in causing ulcers sometimes though it wasn't so successful. Way
Speaker 1: back in the twenties, Russian physician Alexander Bogdanov performed multiple
Speaker 1: blood transfusions on himself. He wanted to test whether the
Speaker 1: procedure might bring him eternal youth. Instead, it killed him.
Speaker 1: But Josiah doesn't just imagine a world where such self
Speaker 1: experimentation is done by the brave and the daring. He
Speaker 1: wants a world we're whipping up a d i Y
Speaker 1: gene therapy no longer seems daring at all, considering where
Speaker 1: the science is now. That is a pretty radical vision. True.
Speaker 1: Modern day genetics have made curing many ones in curable
Speaker 1: diseases seem for the first time realistic. One gene therapy Externa,
Speaker 1: approved last year, treats the form of inherited blindness, but
Speaker 1: most therapies are still highly experimental and the abilities of
Speaker 1: the technology are still really limit it. I've talked with
Speaker 1: a lot of other people on science and medicine about
Speaker 1: Josiah's work, and most of them are pretty skeptical. But
Speaker 1: if you or your loved one is sick, Josia's vision
Speaker 1: is a pretty compelling one, no matter how dubious it sounds.
Speaker 1: That's exactly how Lara's Saurus felt when his wife Diane
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer, and she was
Speaker 1: only thirty years old and had never smoked. No one
Speaker 1: knows why she got the disease at such a young age,
Speaker 1: but it seemed genetics may have played a role. The
Speaker 1: from bolt is very very poor, and we at the
Speaker 1: beginning we were just told there is there's not any hope.
Speaker 1: You can perhaps delayed the inevitable a little bit, but
Speaker 1: not much, and there's really no hope at no point
Speaker 1: in trying to fight too much against its better to
Speaker 1: just enjoy your last days together and then that's going
Speaker 1: to be it. But Lars did not give up. Instead,
Speaker 1: he scoured the world and the Internet for promising treatments.
Speaker 1: He eventually stumbled upon a professor in Germany involved in
Speaker 1: an experimental personalized PEP died vaccine project and experimental immunotherapy.
Speaker 1: Laras and Diane live in Norway, so Germany isn't all
Speaker 1: that far. Immunotherapy is hot, and for good reason. The
Speaker 1: medical literature is filled with tales of tumors suddenly shrinking
Speaker 1: to nothing and terminal illness is miraculously reversing course. It's
Speaker 1: a very interesting and scientifically intriguing way of attacking cancer
Speaker 1: self uh and definitely still unproven and of course even
Speaker 1: more unproven two years uh two years ago when she
Speaker 1: started this. But we hope and believe that it can
Speaker 1: be helpful against her cancer, but there's certainly no proof
Speaker 1: that it will be. Diane was traveling to Germany every
Speaker 1: two weeks for treatment, as well as adding new things
Speaker 1: for her treatment regimen when they seem promising. Somewhere along
Speaker 1: the way, a friend Saint Law is an article about Josiah,
Speaker 1: so Laura's reached out curious about whether a d I
Speaker 1: crisper treatment might work for Diane. Josiah told him it
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't, but the two out of talking it led
Speaker 1: to a plan to make cancer metotherapy more accessible by
Speaker 1: making a d I y. Laura's had a blog where
Speaker 1: he detailed all of the different treatments that Diane was
Speaker 1: trying out. Like Josiah, patients often reached out to Laura's
Speaker 1: after reading it. It was impossible to tell whether any
Speaker 1: of Diane's experimental treatments were actually working, but she was
Speaker 1: at least still alive and doing well, and the people
Speaker 1: are reaching out and they asked it they could perhaps
Speaker 1: to try the same thing, But then some people didn't
Speaker 1: have the necessary funding to do it, and other people
Speaker 1: were perhaps precluded from probably every second week to Germany.
Speaker 1: So so then the question was, you know, are the
Speaker 1: other ways that people can get this type of treatment
Speaker 1: without traveling every second second week to Germany, without spending
Speaker 1: the small fortune we have done. So, Laura start a
Speaker 1: Facebook group called d I Y Cancer Vaccines. On Facebook,
Speaker 1: people with the same diagnosis as Diane could discuss their treatment,
Speaker 1: along with the possibility of making a cancer immunotherapy themselves.
Speaker 1: The idea of making an immunotherapy wasn't completely impossible. For
Speaker 1: a few thousand dollars, anyone can contract a lab to
Speaker 1: manufacture a targeted peptide like Dianes. Everything else can be
Speaker 1: found at a local pharmacy or online. It's promising, but
Speaker 1: these immunotherapies are also highly experimental. There was a chance
Speaker 1: that they could result in devastating side effects or just
Speaker 1: altogether not work. Not to mention, it would be extraordinarily
Speaker 1: expensive to d I y a vaccine that targeted as
Speaker 1: many mutations as Diannes did. That would make the chances
Speaker 1: of it working even slimmer. Still, as a Facebook community grew,
Speaker 1: a few people decided to try out making the vaccine themselves.
Speaker 1: One fell in Norwegian tried her homebrew vaccine on her husband,
Speaker 1: who would run out of chance after his cancer had
Speaker 1: spread to his brain. It didn't work, but Lars was inspired.
Speaker 1: Last year, with help from Josiah, he published an online
Speaker 1: guide for how to make an immunotherapy targeting a single
Speaker 1: mutation in a councers tumor. I think the individual steps
Speaker 1: by themselves are not so difficult, but there is a
Speaker 1: herd life thing, both in comprehension like do you understand
Speaker 1: enough to actually dare to do it and of course
Speaker 1: implementing it. The practical steps, some of them are not
Speaker 1: so difficult, some of them are a little bit more tricky.
Speaker 1: But I think if you are a reasonably well informed
Speaker 1: person and you have the time I think in particular
Speaker 1: this time, and the willingness and the energy to try
Speaker 1: to get into this, I think I think many people
Speaker 1: will be able to do it. The Internet has galvanized
Speaker 1: patients with all sorts of conditions to take a more
Speaker 1: hands on approach to their care. For example, there's a
Speaker 1: website where people with Crowns disease can share what treatments
Speaker 1: have worked for them and what has it. It's sort
Speaker 1: of like a patient powered research network. Another site, Patients
Speaker 1: like Me, connects people with all kinds of ailments. It's
Speaker 1: clear that patients are ready to take a more active
Speaker 1: role in their care. Perhaps this is just the next step.
Speaker 1: The risks Laura's says seem far less daring when you're
Speaker 1: out of options for survival. So I think it's like
Speaker 1: a small step in a direction to help show people
Speaker 1: that something can be possible. Hank Greeley, a bioethosist at
Speaker 1: Stanford and a frequent critic of Josiah's, told me he's
Speaker 1: doubtful anything as significant as a cancer treatment will come
Speaker 1: from someone's homebrew biolab. I could imagine somebody taking a
Speaker 1: rare genetic condition and showing that in a Petrie dish
Speaker 1: they can successfully use crisper to to reverse an unfavorable
Speaker 1: mutation in a disease that, for whatever reason, by botech
Speaker 1: and pharma haven't explored. But making the jump from a
Speaker 1: cell line in a Petri dish, which I think bio
Speaker 1: hackers might be able to do to a drug and
Speaker 1: a human, is such an enormous jump that I think
Speaker 1: bio hackers are likely to play only the smallest of
Speaker 1: roles in that. Hank isn't all that concerned about Josiahs
Speaker 1: Frog experiments, but he is concerned about what it might
Speaker 1: lead to. Josiah's public experimentation has already led to copycats.
Speaker 1: No one has gotten hurt yet, but they certainly could.
Speaker 1: That ceo who injected himself with a herpie's treament on
Speaker 1: stage did it without ever testing the treatment and humans first.
Speaker 1: A few months later, he drowned, So it's impossible to
Speaker 1: say how things might have worked out. But who knows
Speaker 1: what might happen when you introduce a foreign substance into
Speaker 1: the endlessly complex human body. That day that I visited
Speaker 1: Josia's lab, he was planning to inject four frogs with
Speaker 1: full s Dowton and four other frogs, the control frogs
Speaker 1: with the place of Oh, it was the first phase
Speaker 1: of a new experiment. Basically, all you're doing is you're
Speaker 1: injecting a liquid and that's it. Like it's that simple,
Speaker 1: And I don't think people understand that that, Like, it's
Speaker 1: literally that simple you're injecting. He'd already gotten a good
Speaker 1: results in one previous experiment. Injecting the frogs with a
Speaker 1: different gene also meant stimulating growth. Yeah, so here's a
Speaker 1: video that I took. We'll try to show you the frogs.
Speaker 1: They're actually this guy is bigger. Now, that's what was
Speaker 1: talking about. We call him thick boy because it's our
Speaker 1: frog that grew like way bigger than all the other
Speaker 1: frogs from the gene therapy. Thick boy, thick with two
Speaker 1: cs CA. Okay, it's such an easy experiment to do,
Speaker 1: right because there's an obvious way to tell if it's working.
Speaker 1: You can weigh the frogs to see and if they
Speaker 1: get big enough you can tell by I. Josia is
Speaker 1: selling kids to perform these periments online for two that's
Speaker 1: including six frogs. His hope is that it teaches people
Speaker 1: how fun and simple science can be, and just maybe
Speaker 1: that one day, performing such experiments on frogs might empower
Speaker 1: people to take their health into their own hands. The
Speaker 1: one thing that's important to notice that these genes are
Speaker 1: human genes, they're not frog gains. So theoretically, you know,
Speaker 1: it's testing like a gene therapy that would be used
Speaker 1: in a human but it might not be as easy
Speaker 1: as Josiah insists. Here's Hank Greeley again. I think this
Speaker 1: idea of having a hobby in science is a good
Speaker 1: one in and of itself. For the people involved. I
Speaker 1: think there is some chance that they can do some
Speaker 1: scientific benefit, which would be good. Um, I do think
Speaker 1: that development of human drugs and biological products is not
Speaker 1: what they should be focusing on, because I think their
Speaker 1: likelihood of contributing significantly, at least in any very direct
Speaker 1: way to that is very low. Josiah likes to say
Speaker 1: things like, the only thing in the way of creating
Speaker 1: cheap d i Y cures is enough people with the
Speaker 1: knowledge to do it and the market to pay for it.
Speaker 1: Take look start Out. That's the eight fifty dollar gene
Speaker 1: therapy that treats blindness. Josiah is pretty sure he could
Speaker 1: order stuff off the internet and make it for five dollars.
Speaker 1: Another time, he told me he could make dragons if
Speaker 1: there were only enough people to pay for it. According
Speaker 1: to Josiah, it's all about market demand. That's why it's
Speaker 1: so provocative. I interact with a lot of people who
Speaker 1: have cancer, and a lot of people who have different
Speaker 1: types of cancers that they have no treatment for, and
Speaker 1: they're just trying to stay alive and survive. But when
Speaker 1: it's their choice between dying and trying something, most people
Speaker 1: try something. Well, if they could try it, if they
Speaker 1: already had a system, apply form an organism that's been
Speaker 1: set up which they could test these things on before
Speaker 1: they try to themselves, so that risk of dying is less.
Speaker 1: I like, that's a I think a really cool thing.
Speaker 1: Josie's approach is extreme, but it's rooted in a concern
Speaker 1: sharred well beyond bio hackers. Treatments sometimes take decades to
Speaker 1: make it from Petrie dish to patient if it turns
Speaker 1: out that is lucrative enough to pursue a treatment at all,
Speaker 1: And when a treatment does make it to market, many
Speaker 1: people can't afford it. Like, my dream is to get
Speaker 1: people to be able to genetically modify themselves, but it's
Speaker 1: also to uh. I don't want to say, like take
Speaker 1: down the f d A, but figure out a new
Speaker 1: model that works, right because right now there are a
Speaker 1: ton of people dying and suffering that don't have access
Speaker 1: to the drugs they need because of the regulations of time,
Speaker 1: the money, I mean everything with the f d A.
Speaker 1: How does that Ler used to be an attorney at
Speaker 1: the f d A. Now she's a law professor studies
Speaker 1: bio hackers, among other things. She told me that self
Speaker 1: experimentation or experimenting on frogs might not be enough to
Speaker 1: warrant a crackdown from the agency, but it also isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily the best way to help people. So from a
Speaker 1: public health perspective, if what we care about is helping
Speaker 1: people and helping a lot of people, there are lots
Speaker 1: of things that are pretty low tech and not very
Speaker 1: sexy that we know work. So there are areas of
Speaker 1: the country that don't even have clean water, right, so
Speaker 1: giving clean water to people in Flint, Michigan and other
Speaker 1: areas that would be a huge public health benefit That
Speaker 1: isn't as sexy as genetically engineering yourself, um, but it's
Speaker 1: something we know would work. And I I am very
Speaker 1: interested in this area, and I'm as prone as anyone
Speaker 1: to think this is a really exciting thing that jose
Speaker 1: I is doing. But they're just all these other things
Speaker 1: we know that help people on a large scale. Back
Speaker 1: in Josie's lab, I got a good taste of how
Speaker 1: easy it is for things to go wrong when you
Speaker 1: do it yourself after instructing me in syringe technique. So
Speaker 1: put your thumb down there on the bottom right, so
Speaker 1: you have some pressure, right, because if you push on
Speaker 1: the back when you try to push in, then you
Speaker 1: push all the but then how do I push it in?
Speaker 1: He asked me if I wanted to give injecting the
Speaker 1: frogs to try myself. I'm one of those kids who
Speaker 1: asked to be excused from dissecting frogs in high school. Biout,
Speaker 1: So I declined, and I'm glad I did because then
Speaker 1: this happened. Oh my god, he's like breathing really harding. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think I might have got the vein on that
Speaker 1: one accidental. What do you do if he's bleeding nothing,
Speaker 1: hopefully in heels and he's I think that's just starting
Speaker 1: to breathe again or starting to be able to see.
Speaker 1: Probably not. We'll sleep. According to Josiah, the frog did survive,
Speaker 1: and that's it for this week's prognosis. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Do you have a story about healthcare in the US
Speaker 1: or around the world. We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: You can email me at m Portes at Bloomberg dot
Speaker 1: net or find me on Twitter at bag Portes. If
Speaker 1: you were a fan of this episode, please take a
Speaker 1: moment to rate and review us. It'll help new listeners
Speaker 1: find the show. This episode was produced by Liz Smith,
Speaker 1: Our story editor was Rick Shine. Thanks to Drew Armstrong,
Speaker 1: francesco Leavia has had a Bloomberg podcast. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next week.