WEBVTT - Trust and Facing the Unknown (with Rachel Botsman) 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:27.644 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:27.764 --> 0:00:32.604 better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova and today I am flying solo. 0:00:32.844 --> 0:00:37.124 Nate is away, but I am so thrilled to welcome 0:00:37.244 --> 0:00:41.884 on Rachel Batsman, who is someone who I met what 0:00:42.004 --> 0:00:45.404 is it now, Rachel six or so years ago? Oh yeah, 0:00:45.444 --> 0:00:48.404 and we ended up having so much in common, so 0:00:48.444 --> 0:00:53.564 many interests in common. Rachel is an amazing writer speaker. 0:00:54.324 --> 0:00:58.324 She was the first ever Trust Fellow at Oxford University's 0:00:58.484 --> 0:01:03.964 Said Business School. An incredibly impressive woman who now has 0:01:04.044 --> 0:01:07.284 a new audio book out called How to Trust and 0:01:07.484 --> 0:01:11.524 Be Trusted. Rachel, Welcome to Risky Business, and let's talk 0:01:11.564 --> 0:01:12.324 about trust. 0:01:15.764 --> 0:01:17.764 I'm so excited to be here, and I'm so excited 0:01:18.124 --> 0:01:20.564 to talk to you in particular about trust and risk 0:01:20.564 --> 0:01:23.044 because I don't often get to have this conversation, so 0:01:23.044 --> 0:01:23.604 it's a treat. 0:01:24.444 --> 0:01:27.084 It is a trick for me as well. There's a 0:01:27.164 --> 0:01:29.484 question that I wanted to start off with, but before 0:01:30.004 --> 0:01:32.844 we get into that, I think we should probably lay 0:01:32.884 --> 0:01:35.484 the groundwork and give your definition of trust, because I 0:01:35.484 --> 0:01:39.084 think it's a beautiful definition and something that will set 0:01:39.084 --> 0:01:39.844 the stage nicely. 0:01:40.644 --> 0:01:43.644 Yeah, it's been one of the hardest challenges actually coming 0:01:43.684 --> 0:01:47.484 up with the definition that works across all the different 0:01:47.684 --> 0:01:51.924 context that trust functions in. And my definition of trust 0:01:52.004 --> 0:01:55.804 is that it's a confident relationship with the unknown. And 0:01:55.844 --> 0:01:59.524 the reason why that ties so beautifully with risk is 0:01:59.564 --> 0:02:03.324 that the greater the unknown, the greater the answeraint you're, 0:02:03.364 --> 0:02:07.964 the higher the risk in any decision, choice or situation, 0:02:08.764 --> 0:02:13.124 the more trust that you need. And it's kind of 0:02:13.164 --> 0:02:16.324 the antithesis of how a lot of trust theories think 0:02:16.364 --> 0:02:20.524 about trust, because they'll say trust is knowing exactly what 0:02:20.564 --> 0:02:24.724 to expect or knowing what the outcome is, and that's 0:02:24.764 --> 0:02:27.964 always struck me as strange, because if you know how 0:02:28.044 --> 0:02:30.324 things are going to turn out, then you don't need 0:02:30.324 --> 0:02:31.284 a whole lot of trust. 0:02:31.604 --> 0:02:34.124 I'm happy to hear that because it is one of 0:02:34.124 --> 0:02:38.604 the important themes right of trust is control and it's 0:02:38.604 --> 0:02:41.204 something that really resonated with me as someone who studies 0:02:41.284 --> 0:02:44.684 kind of risk and has you know, my PhD, I 0:02:44.724 --> 0:02:47.044 studied the illusion of control, kind of the need for 0:02:47.164 --> 0:02:50.524 control and how important it is for people to feel 0:02:50.964 --> 0:02:54.044 like they're in control of events, in control of the environment. 0:02:54.324 --> 0:02:57.844 And so as I was listening to your audiobook, that 0:02:57.964 --> 0:03:01.284 actually that was a theme that kept coming up, right, 0:03:01.404 --> 0:03:07.004 that one of these major issues in trust is control, 0:03:07.204 --> 0:03:09.284 when we have it, when we don't have it, How 0:03:09.444 --> 0:03:11.244 we can give it up, to whom we can give 0:03:11.244 --> 0:03:13.324 it up when we give it up. I'd love for 0:03:13.364 --> 0:03:15.324 you to talk a little bit more about that and 0:03:15.404 --> 0:03:18.124 about kind of the risk calculus. How does that decision 0:03:18.124 --> 0:03:21.164 making process work when it comes to trust. 0:03:22.284 --> 0:03:25.044 Yeah, and there's so much underneath this. I don't think 0:03:25.404 --> 0:03:29.044 we often think enough about the relationship between trust and control. 0:03:29.164 --> 0:03:32.724 So on a basic level, when you need to control 0:03:32.764 --> 0:03:34.964 things or you need to feel like to your point, 0:03:35.004 --> 0:03:38.084 the illusion of control, it's often a sign of lack 0:03:38.124 --> 0:03:41.724 of trust that you're not dealing with uncertainty very well. 0:03:42.284 --> 0:03:45.444 And this can look like all kinds of things. So 0:03:46.404 --> 0:03:51.124 during the pandemic, or during a political period of term, 0:03:51.244 --> 0:03:56.044 or like all the time, or during a serious environmental 0:03:56.044 --> 0:04:00.804 crisis like the wildfires, the need to not just find information, 0:04:00.964 --> 0:04:03.924 but find information that makes you feel a little bit 0:04:03.924 --> 0:04:07.204 more in control. So, oh, the air quality is actually okay, 0:04:07.244 --> 0:04:11.404 so I'm going to go outside. Those things really set 0:04:11.444 --> 0:04:14.804 off our control alarms all the way through to recognizing 0:04:14.924 --> 0:04:18.404 that when you don't trust someone, you tend to become 0:04:18.444 --> 0:04:21.684 more controlling, you tend to become a micromanager, and that 0:04:21.724 --> 0:04:26.924 plays out at work big time, in partnerships and relationships, 0:04:26.924 --> 0:04:31.124 but also in friendships and as a parent. To make 0:04:31.164 --> 0:04:34.564 this roll, I have two children, thirteen and eleven. The 0:04:34.564 --> 0:04:37.364 eleven year old can be trusted to do her homework, 0:04:38.364 --> 0:04:42.844 she's the girl, and not to make gender stereotypes. Then 0:04:44.164 --> 0:04:47.284 not so much. So he has to do it at 0:04:47.324 --> 0:04:50.284 the kitchen table with this dot clot with me watching 0:04:50.364 --> 0:04:54.004 him or working alongside him. That's very controlling right now. 0:04:54.044 --> 0:04:56.244 If I trusted him, he could do upstairs in his 0:04:56.244 --> 0:04:58.404 bedroom without me watching him and me not have to 0:04:58.404 --> 0:05:04.004 ask him the questions. So control is a sign of 0:05:04.124 --> 0:05:08.884 lack of trust in ourselves, in others in the external. 0:05:10.364 --> 0:05:11.964 And I'd love your take on this, but one of 0:05:12.004 --> 0:05:15.524 the things that worries me is that in the age 0:05:15.524 --> 0:05:19.324 that we live in, this illusion of control I think 0:05:19.484 --> 0:05:21.884 is sort of going up. So even if you think 0:05:21.924 --> 0:05:26.564 about health monitoring, I'm running a marathon a few months 0:05:26.564 --> 0:05:29.844 and I cannot believe how much data there is available 0:05:29.884 --> 0:05:32.364 to tell me what's going on in my body. And 0:05:32.404 --> 0:05:35.484 all of a sudden, there's quite enjoyable thing where I 0:05:35.484 --> 0:05:38.124 shouldn't really worry about the outcome. I should just enjoy 0:05:38.124 --> 0:05:40.804 the journey. It's like you become a control freak around 0:05:40.844 --> 0:05:44.604 this data, and the reality is I'm not in control 0:05:44.644 --> 0:05:46.644 as to whether I get injured. I'm not in control 0:05:46.644 --> 0:05:49.324 whether it's hot or freezing cold on that day. And 0:05:49.404 --> 0:05:54.044 so I feel like this illusion of control, largely created 0:05:54.044 --> 0:05:59.524 through technology, is reducing our tolerance to friction. And this 0:06:00.044 --> 0:06:03.724 is really a crisis in many ways because you throw 0:06:03.804 --> 0:06:07.604 people into situations not of uncertainty, just of malfriction. They 0:06:07.644 --> 0:06:11.084 have no patience, they're in tolerant, and I think it's 0:06:11.124 --> 0:06:14.444 sort of a hidden issue that isn't being spoken about enough. 0:06:15.044 --> 0:06:17.404 Yeah, I think that's I think that's a really important point, 0:06:17.764 --> 0:06:20.204 because you do mention in your book. But I think 0:06:20.524 --> 0:06:23.084 we are in a time where there is kind of 0:06:23.084 --> 0:06:26.284 this crisis of trust, right, trust in so many things, 0:06:26.284 --> 0:06:31.724 trust in institutions and expertise in leadership and all of 0:06:31.764 --> 0:06:34.604 these different things. But this is the other side of it. 0:06:34.684 --> 0:06:37.364 On the other hand, like we do have this then 0:06:37.844 --> 0:06:42.444 desire to hyper monitor, which might not necessarily be the 0:06:42.484 --> 0:06:45.924 best thing. I actually always tell people, you know, stop 0:06:46.124 --> 0:06:49.604 stop wearing those devices, stop monitoring yourself. You know, it's 0:06:49.604 --> 0:06:53.364 actually it's not good. It's not healthy, and you're probably 0:06:53.404 --> 0:06:56.124 losing more than you gain, especially sleep devices. Don't get 0:06:56.124 --> 0:06:59.084 me started, But I think that you're pointing out something 0:06:59.164 --> 0:07:01.884 really important, which is that we are becoming in some 0:07:01.924 --> 0:07:06.044 ways less tolerant of uncertainty, less tolerant of the unknown. 0:07:06.364 --> 0:07:10.804 And there is this relationship. You know, how tolerant you are, 0:07:11.364 --> 0:07:15.284 how much you can embrace it, and both how much 0:07:15.324 --> 0:07:20.844 you trust and how trustworthy you are right yourself. And 0:07:20.964 --> 0:07:23.524 there's something that you said that I found really beautiful. 0:07:23.844 --> 0:07:25.924 You said you know, nothing new happens in the node, 0:07:26.644 --> 0:07:30.484 which I think is such a lovely thought. So I'd 0:07:30.524 --> 0:07:33.524 love to talk a little bit about that and about 0:07:33.564 --> 0:07:35.724 how kind of because this is something that I think 0:07:35.764 --> 0:07:39.844 a lot about right, how embracing risk, right, embracing uncertainty 0:07:39.884 --> 0:07:43.164 can actually be very liberating and can actually help you 0:07:43.204 --> 0:07:45.524 make better decisions as opposed to being afraid of it. 0:07:46.804 --> 0:07:49.764 And I think this idea that nothing new happens in 0:07:49.804 --> 0:07:54.284 the non is it's so powerful to think about your 0:07:54.284 --> 0:07:57.444 own life as to how much of your life. And 0:07:57.484 --> 0:07:59.924 some people really enjoy being in this space and that's fine, 0:08:00.044 --> 0:08:04.924 but it's safe and familiar and repetitive, even like when 0:08:04.964 --> 0:08:07.524 you get to a certain point in your career and 0:08:07.564 --> 0:08:09.804 I started to feel this way, You're like, this is 0:08:09.964 --> 0:08:15.204 relatively easy. I'm not really taking risks anymore. And maybe 0:08:15.244 --> 0:08:19.964 that fatigue is because I'm not in the unknown enough. Right, 0:08:20.084 --> 0:08:21.764 Like I'm going to go into a classroom, I'm going 0:08:21.804 --> 0:08:23.364 to get on stage, I'm going to write a piece 0:08:23.444 --> 0:08:25.484 and I kind of know how it's going to turn out, 0:08:26.004 --> 0:08:30.684 and so that takes effort, and that takes work to 0:08:30.804 --> 0:08:35.684 shake that up. So just a personal example, I've I 0:08:35.764 --> 0:08:37.924 used I see myself as an artist and I've always 0:08:37.964 --> 0:08:40.244 made art, and I was like, right, I'm going to 0:08:40.324 --> 0:08:43.364 go back to this because that is a world where 0:08:43.364 --> 0:08:45.724 I don't speak that language and I have no connections, 0:08:45.764 --> 0:08:48.604 and I am a beginner. I am starting again. I'm 0:08:48.724 --> 0:08:53.724 very much in the unknown, and I've found that risk 0:08:53.804 --> 0:08:58.364 taking that it's so energizing. Yes, it is frightening, but 0:08:58.484 --> 0:09:03.404 you just feel that capacity expanding again. Like it's like 0:09:03.724 --> 0:09:05.964 it's more than the curiosity that you have when you're 0:09:05.964 --> 0:09:09.724 a child. It's like you can hold more. It's you know. 0:09:09.844 --> 0:09:14.484 Keats uses that wonderful phrase of negative capability, and I 0:09:14.524 --> 0:09:17.404 think sort of the opposite of risk taking is all 0:09:17.444 --> 0:09:20.764 the positive capabilities, right, the skill, the competence and knowledge, 0:09:21.764 --> 0:09:25.004 And what we're missing is that negative capability, that ability 0:09:25.644 --> 0:09:27.964 to hold much and to be in the unknown. And 0:09:28.004 --> 0:09:30.164 to do that you have to take risks. You have 0:09:30.204 --> 0:09:32.284 to be a beginner, you have to try new things. 0:09:32.964 --> 0:09:37.044 And it's so easy to forget that as especially when 0:09:37.084 --> 0:09:38.484 you get later on in life. 0:09:38.684 --> 0:09:42.604 Yeah, no, I think that's that's crucial, and that's that's 0:09:42.604 --> 0:09:45.604 actually how I approach almost all new projects. Right, Is 0:09:45.604 --> 0:09:47.804 this something that scares me? Is this something where I 0:09:47.804 --> 0:09:50.564 feel uncomfortable? If the answer is yes, great, If the 0:09:50.644 --> 0:09:53.844 answer is no, you know, is it really worth it? Right? 0:09:54.004 --> 0:09:57.204 You know, you and I have talked about familiarity and 0:09:57.524 --> 0:10:00.084 that you know, that was part of your part of 0:10:00.084 --> 0:10:03.804 your book on trust, how familiarity breeds trust. But also 0:10:03.964 --> 0:10:06.604 you know, it can be a false sense of security. 0:10:07.164 --> 0:10:09.364 And I think that's true on all levels, both being 0:10:10.004 --> 0:10:12.684 you know, doing something that's just easy and familiar, and 0:10:12.884 --> 0:10:16.004 also kind of on on a level of trusting someone 0:10:16.044 --> 0:10:20.444 just because they seem familiar. It's something that makes you 0:10:20.444 --> 0:10:23.604 feel secure. But that's not necessarily good, right, And that's 0:10:23.724 --> 0:10:27.444 not necessarily the correct basis on which to trust, which 0:10:27.484 --> 0:10:30.204 I think brings us to kind of one of your points, 0:10:30.244 --> 0:10:33.964 one of the lessons from your book, which is, you 0:10:34.004 --> 0:10:37.884 know the fact that like who do you trust? Who 0:10:37.884 --> 0:10:40.164 don't you trust? Is a bad question, right, and you 0:10:40.244 --> 0:10:44.324 have to then say to do what? Yeah, and what 0:10:44.324 --> 0:10:46.924 what are you actually basing this on? And it's all 0:10:47.604 --> 0:10:50.444 it all has to do with context. Let's talk a 0:10:50.484 --> 0:10:52.444 little bit about that and tell us a little bit 0:10:52.444 --> 0:10:54.844 about your nanny as well, because it's such a great 0:10:54.964 --> 0:10:58.804 illustration of a lot of these themes and brings us 0:10:58.884 --> 0:11:02.124 back to you know, who you trust, why you trust them? 0:11:02.564 --> 0:11:05.924 Is familiarity good or bad? You know, all risk, all 0:11:06.004 --> 0:11:09.404 of these things, risk versus comfort, all of these things. 0:11:10.644 --> 0:11:14.884 Yeah, and also you know this shift between sort of 0:11:15.884 --> 0:11:18.364 what people say and how they say it and all 0:11:18.364 --> 0:11:20.844 these things that are happening in society right now. And 0:11:21.164 --> 0:11:24.004 so just to sort of talk about a fundamental point 0:11:24.004 --> 0:11:26.444 which you mentioned that is often missed, is that trust 0:11:26.484 --> 0:11:30.684 is highly contextual. So the reason why I say it's 0:11:30.684 --> 0:11:32.844 off the missed is when you look at the way 0:11:33.364 --> 0:11:35.084 people talk about trust in the media, or I don't 0:11:35.084 --> 0:11:38.804 trust that politician, or I don't trust that platform, or 0:11:39.164 --> 0:11:41.964 it's spoken about in very generalized terms, and that is 0:11:42.164 --> 0:11:46.164 problematic because blanket trust is a very bad thing. You 0:11:46.164 --> 0:11:49.604 don't want to be trusted to do everything. And one 0:11:49.604 --> 0:11:52.004 of the ways to improve your own trust skills is 0:11:52.044 --> 0:11:55.524 to understand where you are trusted and where you're not, 0:11:56.084 --> 0:12:00.164 and that's the trust gap. The nanny story or I 0:12:00.164 --> 0:12:03.324 won't tell it all because it's quite long, and so 0:12:03.484 --> 0:12:07.764 what happened was when we were around five. My dad 0:12:08.204 --> 0:12:11.084 my mum were very busy. They were both entrepreneurs and 0:12:11.124 --> 0:12:14.444 they were traveling a lot to America. We live in 0:12:14.484 --> 0:12:17.364 the UK, and so they needed to hire a nanny 0:12:17.484 --> 0:12:21.724 to look after my brother and I and they hired 0:12:21.764 --> 0:12:24.844 this woman. I think I changed her name to Doris 0:12:24.924 --> 0:12:29.444 or stick with her, okay, And I'll never forget the 0:12:29.524 --> 0:12:32.324 day she walked in our house because she had this 0:12:32.844 --> 0:12:36.044 very thick Scottish accent, and my name is Rachel, so 0:12:36.164 --> 0:12:38.364 every time she said my name, you know, she rolled 0:12:38.404 --> 0:12:43.124 her arms and she had one of those really ruddy 0:12:43.324 --> 0:12:46.204 Scottish faces, like like they've been for a long walk 0:12:46.284 --> 0:12:48.564 over the highlands and then they're going to have a 0:12:48.684 --> 0:12:50.324 nice cup of tea and a biscuit and she was 0:12:50.364 --> 0:12:52.684 always baking as well. I remember that. But the day 0:12:52.724 --> 0:12:55.404 she walked in, she was wearing a uniform, and the 0:12:55.524 --> 0:12:59.204 uniform she was wearing was for the Salvation Army and 0:12:59.244 --> 0:13:01.564 she was carrying at tambourine, which I thought was immensely 0:13:01.604 --> 0:13:05.444 exciting as a four or five year old. The point was, 0:13:05.524 --> 0:13:09.364 that's why my parents hired her, because they told her 0:13:09.564 --> 0:13:11.404 my parents. She told my parents that she was belonged 0:13:11.404 --> 0:13:15.124 to South Asian Army. They now realize how influential the 0:13:15.124 --> 0:13:19.204 Scottish accent was because of course there was no email, 0:13:19.284 --> 0:13:22.804 there was no video conferencing. It was all done by phone, 0:13:23.204 --> 0:13:27.004 so those trust singles were really important. Well, listeners will 0:13:27.004 --> 0:13:29.404 have to listen to the book to hear the whole story. 0:13:29.444 --> 0:13:33.044 But she lived with us for nine months and it 0:13:33.124 --> 0:13:36.964 turned out she was running a massive drugs ring in 0:13:37.004 --> 0:13:43.084 North London and then she disappeared and she used our 0:13:43.364 --> 0:13:47.804 family's Volvo Silva Volvo as a getaway card an armed robbery. 0:13:48.164 --> 0:13:52.364 I mean, like, so I don't know where if that's 0:13:52.404 --> 0:13:55.564 my fascination which rus came from that. 0:13:55.564 --> 0:13:58.324 I was like, it's a good origin story, Rachel. You 0:13:58.324 --> 0:13:58.724 should have. 0:13:58.804 --> 0:14:02.124 Raised it, should raise that orangent story. But I remember 0:14:02.204 --> 0:14:05.604 thinking as a child like and even when they found 0:14:05.604 --> 0:14:08.404 out she stolen loads of money and she told them 0:14:08.444 --> 0:14:10.444 she found it under a tree in a park. 0:14:10.604 --> 0:14:12.924 This is this is one of my favorite details. 0:14:13.444 --> 0:14:15.964 Yeah. I remember asking my dad about this and he's like, oh, 0:14:16.044 --> 0:14:19.524 these things can happen. And I'm thinking, what in Broomfield Park, 0:14:19.604 --> 0:14:21.164 like the magic faraway. 0:14:20.764 --> 0:14:22.804 Tree is going to Have you seen the movie Fargo? 0:14:23.044 --> 0:14:25.764 You know sometimes you find large amounts of cash by 0:14:25.804 --> 0:14:28.164 the side of the road, I swear. 0:14:28.204 --> 0:14:29.844 And then they still kept her, and she came on 0:14:29.844 --> 0:14:32.364 a holiday with us to Spain. And this is such 0:14:32.364 --> 0:14:34.164 a random detail, but I remember she went to the 0:14:34.244 --> 0:14:37.604 Queen concert and she loved Freddie Mercury and they were like, wow, 0:14:37.724 --> 0:14:40.724 she loves Queen, right, so she must must be But 0:14:40.844 --> 0:14:45.124 she was not good. She was very, very bad. So yeah, 0:14:45.124 --> 0:14:49.044 so that is a really good example of a bad 0:14:49.044 --> 0:14:52.124 trust decision. And I think the part that's stuck in 0:14:52.164 --> 0:14:55.764 my head as to why my parents kept her was 0:14:55.804 --> 0:14:59.324 it was too much effort someone else. 0:14:59.724 --> 0:15:03.284 Yeah, aside when he said that, it was you know, 0:15:03.604 --> 0:15:04.644 it's one of these things. 0:15:04.644 --> 0:15:06.524 When you said it, I was like, this is so true. 0:15:06.524 --> 0:15:08.644 I think the way you phrased it, because I have 0:15:08.644 --> 0:15:12.124 it in quotes, and I know it says convenience trump's trust, right, 0:15:12.564 --> 0:15:15.364 And that is I think such an important point because 0:15:15.724 --> 0:15:20.164 we make decisions all the time based on convenience and 0:15:20.204 --> 0:15:24.804 based on lower friction and inertia and being like, it's 0:15:24.884 --> 0:15:28.124 just too much effort to do X or y. When 0:15:28.444 --> 0:15:31.004 your nanny had more money, she said she found it 0:15:31.124 --> 0:15:34.084 under the same tree again, right, this tree just happened 0:15:34.084 --> 0:15:36.084 to be a money tree and there was more money 0:15:36.164 --> 0:15:40.044 under it. And the fact that you know, if you 0:15:40.044 --> 0:15:44.844 think about it logically, right, you're your father's a smart man, entrepreneur, 0:15:45.364 --> 0:15:47.844 Like you just have to say, huh, what is going 0:15:47.924 --> 0:15:51.604 on in the brain of this incredibly intelligent person. And 0:15:51.764 --> 0:15:53.884 it's one of these things where you know, I've written 0:15:53.884 --> 0:15:57.884 about con artists a few books back, and you know, 0:15:57.924 --> 0:16:02.364 you see these patterns of smart people, people who know better, 0:16:02.484 --> 0:16:06.524 and yet they end up in these situations where they 0:16:06.604 --> 0:16:11.444 keep trusting, they keep ignoring red flags because it's convenient, right, 0:16:11.564 --> 0:16:15.004 And and it also it also says something about you, Right, 0:16:15.324 --> 0:16:17.284 you don't want to be the person who left your 0:16:17.404 --> 0:16:21.604 kids with a drug dealer, right, So it's easier to 0:16:21.644 --> 0:16:25.364 say no, no, she really is trustworthy. Those things aren't true, 0:16:25.604 --> 0:16:29.004 even though it's your kids, right, and if there's any 0:16:29.084 --> 0:16:31.204 chance that this person is going to be involved in 0:16:31.204 --> 0:16:33.924 an armed robbery, get your kids the fuck out of there. 0:16:36.524 --> 0:16:39.804 But it's just all of these computing computing things, which 0:16:40.404 --> 0:16:42.724 is huge. 0:16:41.804 --> 0:16:44.284 And you know, it's funny. Like I was thinking, I 0:16:44.284 --> 0:16:48.364 love your book, The Confidence Game, and I was thinking about, 0:16:48.404 --> 0:16:50.404 you know, on the chapters and I can't remember which 0:16:50.604 --> 0:16:53.204 how you frame it. It's not the road but denal, 0:16:53.804 --> 0:16:58.444 like the power of denal, because it's your identity and 0:16:59.324 --> 0:17:03.844 that I think it explains so many reasons why people 0:17:03.844 --> 0:17:06.084 don't quit and they don't get out of bad decisions, 0:17:06.484 --> 0:17:09.284 even when they know the client isn't trustworthy or the 0:17:09.404 --> 0:17:12.564 investment isn't good or the nanny isn't like. Why we 0:17:12.604 --> 0:17:15.484 can't extricate ourselves from that situations. I think it's just 0:17:15.684 --> 0:17:17.524 a fascinating human flaw. 0:17:18.284 --> 0:17:22.964 Yeah, it really is. It really is. And you know 0:17:24.124 --> 0:17:25.684 everything ended well right. 0:17:25.644 --> 0:17:27.804 Here, you are nice. 0:17:30.004 --> 0:17:32.764 Yeah, you know the other details of the story are 0:17:32.804 --> 0:17:35.444 fascinating and everyone should listen to it. But yeah, it is, 0:17:35.684 --> 0:17:38.204 you know, it is a really interesting part of human nature, 0:17:38.524 --> 0:17:41.724 right The way that we trust how we make those decisions. 0:17:42.044 --> 0:17:44.444 And you know when you when you said Scottish accent 0:17:44.524 --> 0:17:46.484 right for the nanny. This is something you and I 0:17:46.484 --> 0:17:49.244 have spoken about, which is kind of your your gut feelings, 0:17:49.324 --> 0:17:53.044 your your gut instincts, Oh, I like this person based 0:17:53.084 --> 0:17:54.324 on what right? 0:17:54.844 --> 0:17:55.164 Why? 0:17:55.604 --> 0:17:59.004 Why is that the case? And as I've as I've 0:17:59.044 --> 0:18:01.684 told you, that is not a good way to make decisions. 0:18:01.884 --> 0:18:04.444 You know, my gut said so we're very bad at 0:18:04.484 --> 0:18:07.404 figuring out whether the gut is correct or not, and 0:18:07.484 --> 0:18:11.244 so asking that question why is crucial over and over 0:18:11.364 --> 0:18:11.844 and over. 0:18:12.324 --> 0:18:15.324 Now you and can I just say, I don't know 0:18:15.364 --> 0:18:17.404 if you find this, but when I challenge, because I 0:18:17.804 --> 0:18:20.404 like to believe I'm an intuited person, right, and I'm 0:18:20.444 --> 0:18:22.524 still kind of figuring out what that means. I think 0:18:22.564 --> 0:18:26.204 it means that I'm good at reading the room and 0:18:26.204 --> 0:18:29.124 I'm good at reading energy versus predicting how things are 0:18:29.124 --> 0:18:30.724 going to turn out, which I think is what people 0:18:30.764 --> 0:18:33.844 think intuition is, right, It's more of a I see 0:18:33.884 --> 0:18:36.524 it as more reading the state someone is in and 0:18:36.524 --> 0:18:39.844 how engaged they are with you versus what's going to happen. 0:18:40.764 --> 0:18:43.844 And when I challenge people to say, look, it's not 0:18:43.884 --> 0:18:46.884 the intuition is a bad thing, particularly in situations where 0:18:46.964 --> 0:18:50.444 you recognize that pattern. It's the lack of information. So 0:18:50.484 --> 0:18:52.804 when you rely on the intuition and you just don't 0:18:52.844 --> 0:18:57.524 have enough reliable information, people hate this idea that they're like, 0:18:57.604 --> 0:19:01.204 this flies in the face of emotional intelligence, and this, 0:19:01.444 --> 0:19:04.084 you know, this is going to slow down decision making 0:19:04.164 --> 0:19:06.124 and what do you expect that we're going to get 0:19:06.124 --> 0:19:08.284 all this information about people? And how do we know 0:19:08.284 --> 0:19:11.324 if the information is really liable? And I find it 0:19:11.404 --> 0:19:14.564 really interesting that it sparks something so visceral and deep 0:19:14.604 --> 0:19:17.364 in people that they rely on the intuition. 0:19:17.484 --> 0:19:20.484 So Heavenly, yeah, people really don't like to hear that. 0:19:20.524 --> 0:19:23.284 I find that. I find that as well. And it's 0:19:23.484 --> 0:19:26.284 very funny because you know, I play poker as well, 0:19:26.644 --> 0:19:29.764 and there are a lot of poker players who are 0:19:29.844 --> 0:19:34.004 very mathematical, right, like, very quantitative. They use Solber outputs, 0:19:34.004 --> 0:19:37.124 it's all very you know, very precise. And yet when 0:19:37.244 --> 0:19:39.964 I say something like you should not trust your gut, 0:19:40.004 --> 0:19:43.524 you should not trust they get so upset, right because 0:19:43.564 --> 0:19:46.364 even someone's so mathematical to them, it seems like there's 0:19:46.604 --> 0:19:49.884 you know, the sixth sense, there's something else that like 0:19:50.764 --> 0:19:53.444 that you know has to be has to be there, 0:19:53.484 --> 0:19:56.364 And I have to say, well, sometimes your gut is right, right, 0:19:56.604 --> 0:19:58.644 but you need to ask, like, what is it based 0:19:58.684 --> 0:20:01.604 on where's the information coming from? Do I have expertise 0:20:01.644 --> 0:20:05.244 in this right? Is this something that is just unconscious 0:20:05.284 --> 0:20:08.364 expertise or is it something that is just a feeling 0:20:08.444 --> 0:20:13.604 based on who knows what? Right? And it could be 0:20:13.844 --> 0:20:17.684 very good pattern recognition, or it could be bullshit, but 0:20:17.284 --> 0:20:20.444 people really do not like to hear that, and it's 0:20:20.524 --> 0:20:23.764 it's that's a I think that's such an interesting point 0:20:23.924 --> 0:20:24.844 about trust. 0:20:25.124 --> 0:20:28.004 And I think it's I'm doing this interesting thing tomorrow 0:20:28.084 --> 0:20:31.244 on gen Z. This is the biggest study done in 0:20:31.284 --> 0:20:33.404 the UK on how they trust and how they think 0:20:33.404 --> 0:20:36.084 about the truth. And one of the things that I've 0:20:36.084 --> 0:20:38.724 been thinking about related to this is how much they 0:20:39.644 --> 0:20:43.204 not just gen Z, but rely on feelings over facts 0:20:43.284 --> 0:20:46.484 to make a decision. And that is so much to 0:20:46.564 --> 0:20:50.684 do with sort of the invisible hand of algorithms, So 0:20:50.884 --> 0:20:54.404 the vertical nature of fees where you can find things 0:20:54.404 --> 0:20:57.524 to validate how you're feeling, not even that day, that moment, 0:20:57.884 --> 0:20:59.764 that then becomes the way you make a decision, and 0:21:00.204 --> 0:21:04.164 that really frightens me. This idea of feeling your way 0:21:04.204 --> 0:21:07.844 through a decision versus looking for reliable information. 0:21:08.324 --> 0:21:12.404 That's incredibly scary that you know, I think that that 0:21:12.524 --> 0:21:16.404 is something that is the opposite of what your whole 0:21:16.404 --> 0:21:20.284 book is about about trust, right, and the opposite of 0:21:20.324 --> 0:21:23.724 everything that I've tried to do, because feelings are sometimes 0:21:23.724 --> 0:21:27.524 integral to a decision, but usually they're incidental. Right. There's 0:21:27.644 --> 0:21:31.084 a whole area of psychology that talks about how poor 0:21:31.164 --> 0:21:34.404 our decision making ability is when we rely on feelings 0:21:34.404 --> 0:21:36.044 because most of the time they have nothing to do 0:21:36.164 --> 0:21:40.284 with the decision at hand. And there's even a term 0:21:40.364 --> 0:21:43.324 called mood as information when we use kind of the 0:21:43.324 --> 0:21:46.124 mood we're in as information when we shouldn't. Right, it's 0:21:46.124 --> 0:21:50.404 a it's a major fallacy, and it really influences decisions 0:21:50.444 --> 0:22:07.364 in a negative way. Let's talk about something a little 0:22:07.364 --> 0:22:10.364 bit more positive, because you you in reviewed some really 0:22:10.404 --> 0:22:15.884 interesting people who have used trust in really interesting ways, 0:22:16.644 --> 0:22:19.124 and I was, you know, some very inspiring people like 0:22:19.124 --> 0:22:24.404 the Spanish teacher ms rad right, who who is Well, 0:22:24.444 --> 0:22:26.364 why don't you tell us a little bit about her? 0:22:26.604 --> 0:22:29.964 And about this distinction which I think is really really 0:22:30.084 --> 0:22:32.764 nice that you make between earning trust and building trust. 0:22:33.724 --> 0:22:38.364 Yeah, Miss rad Oh, she was. I shouldn't pick favorites, 0:22:38.404 --> 0:22:42.564 but it really was incredible. She's was a Teacher of 0:22:42.564 --> 0:22:45.444 the Year in Illinois, and I think the thing that 0:22:45.484 --> 0:22:48.364 really struck me about her is that she's working in 0:22:48.364 --> 0:22:51.524 a pretty tough environment and she's working with often with 0:22:51.644 --> 0:22:56.244 children that have never learned how to trust anyone. They've 0:22:56.244 --> 0:22:59.204 never learned how to trust a teacher, a parent, a custodian, 0:22:59.324 --> 0:23:05.084