1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:27,644 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:27,764 --> 00:00:32,604 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova and today I am flying solo. 3 00:00:32,844 --> 00:00:37,124 Speaker 1: Nate is away, but I am so thrilled to welcome 4 00:00:37,244 --> 00:00:41,884 Speaker 1: on Rachel Batsman, who is someone who I met what 5 00:00:42,004 --> 00:00:45,404 Speaker 1: is it now, Rachel six or so years ago? Oh yeah, 6 00:00:45,444 --> 00:00:48,404 Speaker 1: and we ended up having so much in common, so 7 00:00:48,444 --> 00:00:53,564 Speaker 1: many interests in common. Rachel is an amazing writer speaker. 8 00:00:54,324 --> 00:00:58,324 Speaker 1: She was the first ever Trust Fellow at Oxford University's 9 00:00:58,484 --> 00:01:03,964 Speaker 1: Said Business School. An incredibly impressive woman who now has 10 00:01:04,044 --> 00:01:07,284 Speaker 1: a new audio book out called How to Trust and 11 00:01:07,484 --> 00:01:11,524 Speaker 1: Be Trusted. Rachel, Welcome to Risky Business, and let's talk 12 00:01:11,564 --> 00:01:12,324 Speaker 1: about trust. 13 00:01:15,764 --> 00:01:17,764 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be here, and I'm so excited 14 00:01:18,124 --> 00:01:20,564 Speaker 2: to talk to you in particular about trust and risk 15 00:01:20,564 --> 00:01:23,044 Speaker 2: because I don't often get to have this conversation, so 16 00:01:23,044 --> 00:01:23,604 Speaker 2: it's a treat. 17 00:01:24,444 --> 00:01:27,084 Speaker 1: It is a trick for me as well. There's a 18 00:01:27,164 --> 00:01:29,484 Speaker 1: question that I wanted to start off with, but before 19 00:01:30,004 --> 00:01:32,844 Speaker 1: we get into that, I think we should probably lay 20 00:01:32,884 --> 00:01:35,484 Speaker 1: the groundwork and give your definition of trust, because I 21 00:01:35,484 --> 00:01:39,084 Speaker 1: think it's a beautiful definition and something that will set 22 00:01:39,084 --> 00:01:39,844 Speaker 1: the stage nicely. 23 00:01:40,644 --> 00:01:43,644 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been one of the hardest challenges actually coming 24 00:01:43,684 --> 00:01:47,484 Speaker 2: up with the definition that works across all the different 25 00:01:47,684 --> 00:01:51,924 Speaker 2: context that trust functions in. And my definition of trust 26 00:01:52,004 --> 00:01:55,804 Speaker 2: is that it's a confident relationship with the unknown. And 27 00:01:55,844 --> 00:01:59,524 Speaker 2: the reason why that ties so beautifully with risk is 28 00:01:59,564 --> 00:02:03,324 Speaker 2: that the greater the unknown, the greater the answeraint you're, 29 00:02:03,364 --> 00:02:07,964 Speaker 2: the higher the risk in any decision, choice or situation, 30 00:02:08,764 --> 00:02:13,124 Speaker 2: the more trust that you need. And it's kind of 31 00:02:13,164 --> 00:02:16,324 Speaker 2: the antithesis of how a lot of trust theories think 32 00:02:16,364 --> 00:02:20,524 Speaker 2: about trust, because they'll say trust is knowing exactly what 33 00:02:20,564 --> 00:02:24,724 Speaker 2: to expect or knowing what the outcome is, and that's 34 00:02:24,764 --> 00:02:27,964 Speaker 2: always struck me as strange, because if you know how 35 00:02:28,044 --> 00:02:30,324 Speaker 2: things are going to turn out, then you don't need 36 00:02:30,324 --> 00:02:31,284 Speaker 2: a whole lot of trust. 37 00:02:31,604 --> 00:02:34,124 Speaker 1: I'm happy to hear that because it is one of 38 00:02:34,124 --> 00:02:38,604 Speaker 1: the important themes right of trust is control and it's 39 00:02:38,604 --> 00:02:41,204 Speaker 1: something that really resonated with me as someone who studies 40 00:02:41,284 --> 00:02:44,684 Speaker 1: kind of risk and has you know, my PhD, I 41 00:02:44,724 --> 00:02:47,044 Speaker 1: studied the illusion of control, kind of the need for 42 00:02:47,164 --> 00:02:50,524 Speaker 1: control and how important it is for people to feel 43 00:02:50,964 --> 00:02:54,044 Speaker 1: like they're in control of events, in control of the environment. 44 00:02:54,324 --> 00:02:57,844 Speaker 1: And so as I was listening to your audiobook, that 45 00:02:57,964 --> 00:03:01,284 Speaker 1: actually that was a theme that kept coming up, right, 46 00:03:01,404 --> 00:03:07,004 Speaker 1: that one of these major issues in trust is control, 47 00:03:07,204 --> 00:03:09,284 Speaker 1: when we have it, when we don't have it, How 48 00:03:09,444 --> 00:03:11,244 Speaker 1: we can give it up, to whom we can give 49 00:03:11,244 --> 00:03:13,324 Speaker 1: it up when we give it up. I'd love for 50 00:03:13,364 --> 00:03:15,324 Speaker 1: you to talk a little bit more about that and 51 00:03:15,404 --> 00:03:18,124 Speaker 1: about kind of the risk calculus. How does that decision 52 00:03:18,124 --> 00:03:21,164 Speaker 1: making process work when it comes to trust. 53 00:03:22,284 --> 00:03:25,044 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's so much underneath this. I don't think 54 00:03:25,404 --> 00:03:29,044 Speaker 2: we often think enough about the relationship between trust and control. 55 00:03:29,164 --> 00:03:32,724 Speaker 2: So on a basic level, when you need to control 56 00:03:32,764 --> 00:03:34,964 Speaker 2: things or you need to feel like to your point, 57 00:03:35,004 --> 00:03:38,084 Speaker 2: the illusion of control, it's often a sign of lack 58 00:03:38,124 --> 00:03:41,724 Speaker 2: of trust that you're not dealing with uncertainty very well. 59 00:03:42,284 --> 00:03:45,444 Speaker 2: And this can look like all kinds of things. So 60 00:03:46,404 --> 00:03:51,124 Speaker 2: during the pandemic, or during a political period of term, 61 00:03:51,244 --> 00:03:56,044 Speaker 2: or like all the time, or during a serious environmental 62 00:03:56,044 --> 00:04:00,804 Speaker 2: crisis like the wildfires, the need to not just find information, 63 00:04:00,964 --> 00:04:03,924 Speaker 2: but find information that makes you feel a little bit 64 00:04:03,924 --> 00:04:07,204 Speaker 2: more in control. So, oh, the air quality is actually okay, 65 00:04:07,244 --> 00:04:11,404 Speaker 2: so I'm going to go outside. Those things really set 66 00:04:11,444 --> 00:04:14,804 Speaker 2: off our control alarms all the way through to recognizing 67 00:04:14,924 --> 00:04:18,404 Speaker 2: that when you don't trust someone, you tend to become 68 00:04:18,444 --> 00:04:21,684 Speaker 2: more controlling, you tend to become a micromanager, and that 69 00:04:21,724 --> 00:04:26,924 Speaker 2: plays out at work big time, in partnerships and relationships, 70 00:04:26,924 --> 00:04:31,124 Speaker 2: but also in friendships and as a parent. To make 71 00:04:31,164 --> 00:04:34,564 Speaker 2: this roll, I have two children, thirteen and eleven. The 72 00:04:34,564 --> 00:04:37,364 Speaker 2: eleven year old can be trusted to do her homework, 73 00:04:38,364 --> 00:04:42,844 Speaker 2: she's the girl, and not to make gender stereotypes. Then 74 00:04:44,164 --> 00:04:47,284 Speaker 2: not so much. So he has to do it at 75 00:04:47,324 --> 00:04:50,284 Speaker 2: the kitchen table with this dot clot with me watching 76 00:04:50,364 --> 00:04:54,004 Speaker 2: him or working alongside him. That's very controlling right now. 77 00:04:54,044 --> 00:04:56,244 Speaker 2: If I trusted him, he could do upstairs in his 78 00:04:56,244 --> 00:04:58,404 Speaker 2: bedroom without me watching him and me not have to 79 00:04:58,404 --> 00:05:04,004 Speaker 2: ask him the questions. So control is a sign of 80 00:05:04,124 --> 00:05:08,884 Speaker 2: lack of trust in ourselves, in others in the external. 81 00:05:10,364 --> 00:05:11,964 Speaker 2: And I'd love your take on this, but one of 82 00:05:12,004 --> 00:05:15,524 Speaker 2: the things that worries me is that in the age 83 00:05:15,524 --> 00:05:19,324 Speaker 2: that we live in, this illusion of control I think 84 00:05:19,484 --> 00:05:21,884 Speaker 2: is sort of going up. So even if you think 85 00:05:21,924 --> 00:05:26,564 Speaker 2: about health monitoring, I'm running a marathon a few months 86 00:05:26,564 --> 00:05:29,844 Speaker 2: and I cannot believe how much data there is available 87 00:05:29,884 --> 00:05:32,364 Speaker 2: to tell me what's going on in my body. And 88 00:05:32,404 --> 00:05:35,484 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, there's quite enjoyable thing where I 89 00:05:35,484 --> 00:05:38,124 Speaker 2: shouldn't really worry about the outcome. I should just enjoy 90 00:05:38,124 --> 00:05:40,804 Speaker 2: the journey. It's like you become a control freak around 91 00:05:40,844 --> 00:05:44,604 Speaker 2: this data, and the reality is I'm not in control 92 00:05:44,644 --> 00:05:46,644 Speaker 2: as to whether I get injured. I'm not in control 93 00:05:46,644 --> 00:05:49,324 Speaker 2: whether it's hot or freezing cold on that day. And 94 00:05:49,404 --> 00:05:54,044 Speaker 2: so I feel like this illusion of control, largely created 95 00:05:54,044 --> 00:05:59,524 Speaker 2: through technology, is reducing our tolerance to friction. And this 96 00:06:00,044 --> 00:06:03,724 Speaker 2: is really a crisis in many ways because you throw 97 00:06:03,804 --> 00:06:07,604 Speaker 2: people into situations not of uncertainty, just of malfriction. They 98 00:06:07,644 --> 00:06:11,084 Speaker 2: have no patience, they're in tolerant, and I think it's 99 00:06:11,124 --> 00:06:14,444 Speaker 2: sort of a hidden issue that isn't being spoken about enough. 100 00:06:15,044 --> 00:06:17,404 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I think that's a really important point, 101 00:06:17,764 --> 00:06:20,204 Speaker 1: because you do mention in your book. But I think 102 00:06:20,524 --> 00:06:23,084 Speaker 1: we are in a time where there is kind of 103 00:06:23,084 --> 00:06:26,284 Speaker 1: this crisis of trust, right, trust in so many things, 104 00:06:26,284 --> 00:06:31,724 Speaker 1: trust in institutions and expertise in leadership and all of 105 00:06:31,764 --> 00:06:34,604 Speaker 1: these different things. But this is the other side of it. 106 00:06:34,684 --> 00:06:37,364 Speaker 1: On the other hand, like we do have this then 107 00:06:37,844 --> 00:06:42,444 Speaker 1: desire to hyper monitor, which might not necessarily be the 108 00:06:42,484 --> 00:06:45,924 Speaker 1: best thing. I actually always tell people, you know, stop 109 00:06:46,124 --> 00:06:49,604 Speaker 1: stop wearing those devices, stop monitoring yourself. You know, it's 110 00:06:49,604 --> 00:06:53,364 Speaker 1: actually it's not good. It's not healthy, and you're probably 111 00:06:53,404 --> 00:06:56,124 Speaker 1: losing more than you gain, especially sleep devices. Don't get 112 00:06:56,124 --> 00:06:59,084 Speaker 1: me started, But I think that you're pointing out something 113 00:06:59,164 --> 00:07:01,884 Speaker 1: really important, which is that we are becoming in some 114 00:07:01,924 --> 00:07:06,044 Speaker 1: ways less tolerant of uncertainty, less tolerant of the unknown. 115 00:07:06,364 --> 00:07:10,804 Speaker 1: And there is this relationship. You know, how tolerant you are, 116 00:07:11,364 --> 00:07:15,284 Speaker 1: how much you can embrace it, and both how much 117 00:07:15,324 --> 00:07:20,844 Speaker 1: you trust and how trustworthy you are right yourself. And 118 00:07:20,964 --> 00:07:23,524 Speaker 1: there's something that you said that I found really beautiful. 119 00:07:23,844 --> 00:07:25,924 Speaker 1: You said you know, nothing new happens in the node, 120 00:07:26,644 --> 00:07:30,484 Speaker 1: which I think is such a lovely thought. So I'd 121 00:07:30,524 --> 00:07:33,524 Speaker 1: love to talk a little bit about that and about 122 00:07:33,564 --> 00:07:35,724 Speaker 1: how kind of because this is something that I think 123 00:07:35,764 --> 00:07:39,844 Speaker 1: a lot about right, how embracing risk, right, embracing uncertainty 124 00:07:39,884 --> 00:07:43,164 Speaker 1: can actually be very liberating and can actually help you 125 00:07:43,204 --> 00:07:45,524 Speaker 1: make better decisions as opposed to being afraid of it. 126 00:07:46,804 --> 00:07:49,764 Speaker 2: And I think this idea that nothing new happens in 127 00:07:49,804 --> 00:07:54,284 Speaker 2: the non is it's so powerful to think about your 128 00:07:54,284 --> 00:07:57,444 Speaker 2: own life as to how much of your life. And 129 00:07:57,484 --> 00:07:59,924 Speaker 2: some people really enjoy being in this space and that's fine, 130 00:08:00,044 --> 00:08:04,924 Speaker 2: but it's safe and familiar and repetitive, even like when 131 00:08:04,964 --> 00:08:07,524 Speaker 2: you get to a certain point in your career and 132 00:08:07,564 --> 00:08:09,804 Speaker 2: I started to feel this way, You're like, this is 133 00:08:09,964 --> 00:08:15,204 Speaker 2: relatively easy. I'm not really taking risks anymore. And maybe 134 00:08:15,244 --> 00:08:19,964 Speaker 2: that fatigue is because I'm not in the unknown enough. Right, 135 00:08:20,084 --> 00:08:21,764 Speaker 2: Like I'm going to go into a classroom, I'm going 136 00:08:21,804 --> 00:08:23,364 Speaker 2: to get on stage, I'm going to write a piece 137 00:08:23,444 --> 00:08:25,484 Speaker 2: and I kind of know how it's going to turn out, 138 00:08:26,004 --> 00:08:30,684 Speaker 2: and so that takes effort, and that takes work to 139 00:08:30,804 --> 00:08:35,684 Speaker 2: shake that up. So just a personal example, I've I 140 00:08:35,764 --> 00:08:37,924 Speaker 2: used I see myself as an artist and I've always 141 00:08:37,964 --> 00:08:40,244 Speaker 2: made art, and I was like, right, I'm going to 142 00:08:40,324 --> 00:08:43,364 Speaker 2: go back to this because that is a world where 143 00:08:43,364 --> 00:08:45,724 Speaker 2: I don't speak that language and I have no connections, 144 00:08:45,764 --> 00:08:48,604 Speaker 2: and I am a beginner. I am starting again. I'm 145 00:08:48,724 --> 00:08:53,724 Speaker 2: very much in the unknown, and I've found that risk 146 00:08:53,804 --> 00:08:58,364 Speaker 2: taking that it's so energizing. Yes, it is frightening, but 147 00:08:58,484 --> 00:09:03,404 Speaker 2: you just feel that capacity expanding again. Like it's like 148 00:09:03,724 --> 00:09:05,964 Speaker 2: it's more than the curiosity that you have when you're 149 00:09:05,964 --> 00:09:09,724 Speaker 2: a child. It's like you can hold more. It's you know. 150 00:09:09,844 --> 00:09:14,484 Speaker 2: Keats uses that wonderful phrase of negative capability, and I 151 00:09:14,524 --> 00:09:17,404 Speaker 2: think sort of the opposite of risk taking is all 152 00:09:17,444 --> 00:09:20,764 Speaker 2: the positive capabilities, right, the skill, the competence and knowledge, 153 00:09:21,764 --> 00:09:25,004 Speaker 2: And what we're missing is that negative capability, that ability 154 00:09:25,644 --> 00:09:27,964 Speaker 2: to hold much and to be in the unknown. And 155 00:09:28,004 --> 00:09:30,164 Speaker 2: to do that you have to take risks. You have 156 00:09:30,204 --> 00:09:32,284 Speaker 2: to be a beginner, you have to try new things. 157 00:09:32,964 --> 00:09:37,044 Speaker 2: And it's so easy to forget that as especially when 158 00:09:37,084 --> 00:09:38,484 Speaker 2: you get later on in life. 159 00:09:38,684 --> 00:09:42,604 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that's that's crucial, and that's that's 160 00:09:42,604 --> 00:09:45,604 Speaker 1: actually how I approach almost all new projects. Right, Is 161 00:09:45,604 --> 00:09:47,804 Speaker 1: this something that scares me? Is this something where I 162 00:09:47,804 --> 00:09:50,564 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable? If the answer is yes, great, If the 163 00:09:50,644 --> 00:09:53,844 Speaker 1: answer is no, you know, is it really worth it? Right? 164 00:09:54,004 --> 00:09:57,204 Speaker 1: You know, you and I have talked about familiarity and 165 00:09:57,524 --> 00:10:00,084 Speaker 1: that you know, that was part of your part of 166 00:10:00,084 --> 00:10:03,804 Speaker 1: your book on trust, how familiarity breeds trust. But also 167 00:10:03,964 --> 00:10:06,604 Speaker 1: you know, it can be a false sense of security. 168 00:10:07,164 --> 00:10:09,364 Speaker 1: And I think that's true on all levels, both being 169 00:10:10,004 --> 00:10:12,684 Speaker 1: you know, doing something that's just easy and familiar, and 170 00:10:12,884 --> 00:10:16,004 Speaker 1: also kind of on on a level of trusting someone 171 00:10:16,044 --> 00:10:20,444 Speaker 1: just because they seem familiar. It's something that makes you 172 00:10:20,444 --> 00:10:23,604 Speaker 1: feel secure. But that's not necessarily good, right, And that's 173 00:10:23,724 --> 00:10:27,444 Speaker 1: not necessarily the correct basis on which to trust, which 174 00:10:27,484 --> 00:10:30,204 Speaker 1: I think brings us to kind of one of your points, 175 00:10:30,244 --> 00:10:33,964 Speaker 1: one of the lessons from your book, which is, you 176 00:10:34,004 --> 00:10:37,884 Speaker 1: know the fact that like who do you trust? Who 177 00:10:37,884 --> 00:10:40,164 Speaker 1: don't you trust? Is a bad question, right, and you 178 00:10:40,244 --> 00:10:44,324 Speaker 1: have to then say to do what? Yeah, and what 179 00:10:44,324 --> 00:10:46,924 Speaker 1: what are you actually basing this on? And it's all 180 00:10:47,604 --> 00:10:50,444 Speaker 1: it all has to do with context. Let's talk a 181 00:10:50,484 --> 00:10:52,444 Speaker 1: little bit about that and tell us a little bit 182 00:10:52,444 --> 00:10:54,844 Speaker 1: about your nanny as well, because it's such a great 183 00:10:54,964 --> 00:10:58,804 Speaker 1: illustration of a lot of these themes and brings us 184 00:10:58,884 --> 00:11:02,124 Speaker 1: back to you know, who you trust, why you trust them? 185 00:11:02,564 --> 00:11:05,924 Speaker 1: Is familiarity good or bad? You know, all risk, all 186 00:11:06,004 --> 00:11:09,404 Speaker 1: of these things, risk versus comfort, all of these things. 187 00:11:10,644 --> 00:11:14,884 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also you know this shift between sort of 188 00:11:15,884 --> 00:11:18,364 Speaker 2: what people say and how they say it and all 189 00:11:18,364 --> 00:11:20,844 Speaker 2: these things that are happening in society right now. And 190 00:11:21,164 --> 00:11:24,004 Speaker 2: so just to sort of talk about a fundamental point 191 00:11:24,004 --> 00:11:26,444 Speaker 2: which you mentioned that is often missed, is that trust 192 00:11:26,484 --> 00:11:30,684 Speaker 2: is highly contextual. So the reason why I say it's 193 00:11:30,684 --> 00:11:32,844 Speaker 2: off the missed is when you look at the way 194 00:11:33,364 --> 00:11:35,084 Speaker 2: people talk about trust in the media, or I don't 195 00:11:35,084 --> 00:11:38,804 Speaker 2: trust that politician, or I don't trust that platform, or 196 00:11:39,164 --> 00:11:41,964 Speaker 2: it's spoken about in very generalized terms, and that is 197 00:11:42,164 --> 00:11:46,164 Speaker 2: problematic because blanket trust is a very bad thing. You 198 00:11:46,164 --> 00:11:49,604 Speaker 2: don't want to be trusted to do everything. And one 199 00:11:49,604 --> 00:11:52,004 Speaker 2: of the ways to improve your own trust skills is 200 00:11:52,044 --> 00:11:55,524 Speaker 2: to understand where you are trusted and where you're not, 201 00:11:56,084 --> 00:12:00,164 Speaker 2: and that's the trust gap. The nanny story or I 202 00:12:00,164 --> 00:12:03,324 Speaker 2: won't tell it all because it's quite long, and so 203 00:12:03,484 --> 00:12:07,764 Speaker 2: what happened was when we were around five. My dad 204 00:12:08,204 --> 00:12:11,084 Speaker 2: my mum were very busy. They were both entrepreneurs and 205 00:12:11,124 --> 00:12:14,444 Speaker 2: they were traveling a lot to America. We live in 206 00:12:14,484 --> 00:12:17,364 Speaker 2: the UK, and so they needed to hire a nanny 207 00:12:17,484 --> 00:12:21,724 Speaker 2: to look after my brother and I and they hired 208 00:12:21,764 --> 00:12:24,844 Speaker 2: this woman. I think I changed her name to Doris 209 00:12:24,924 --> 00:12:29,444 Speaker 2: or stick with her, okay, And I'll never forget the 210 00:12:29,524 --> 00:12:32,324 Speaker 2: day she walked in our house because she had this 211 00:12:32,844 --> 00:12:36,044 Speaker 2: very thick Scottish accent, and my name is Rachel, so 212 00:12:36,164 --> 00:12:38,364 Speaker 2: every time she said my name, you know, she rolled 213 00:12:38,404 --> 00:12:43,124 Speaker 2: her arms and she had one of those really ruddy 214 00:12:43,324 --> 00:12:46,204 Speaker 2: Scottish faces, like like they've been for a long walk 215 00:12:46,284 --> 00:12:48,564 Speaker 2: over the highlands and then they're going to have a 216 00:12:48,684 --> 00:12:50,324 Speaker 2: nice cup of tea and a biscuit and she was 217 00:12:50,364 --> 00:12:52,684 Speaker 2: always baking as well. I remember that. But the day 218 00:12:52,724 --> 00:12:55,404 Speaker 2: she walked in, she was wearing a uniform, and the 219 00:12:55,524 --> 00:12:59,204 Speaker 2: uniform she was wearing was for the Salvation Army and 220 00:12:59,244 --> 00:13:01,564 Speaker 2: she was carrying at tambourine, which I thought was immensely 221 00:13:01,604 --> 00:13:05,444 Speaker 2: exciting as a four or five year old. The point was, 222 00:13:05,524 --> 00:13:09,364 Speaker 2: that's why my parents hired her, because they told her 223 00:13:09,564 --> 00:13:11,404 Speaker 2: my parents. She told my parents that she was belonged 224 00:13:11,404 --> 00:13:15,124 Speaker 2: to South Asian Army. They now realize how influential the 225 00:13:15,124 --> 00:13:19,204 Speaker 2: Scottish accent was because of course there was no email, 226 00:13:19,284 --> 00:13:22,804 Speaker 2: there was no video conferencing. It was all done by phone, 227 00:13:23,204 --> 00:13:27,004 Speaker 2: so those trust singles were really important. Well, listeners will 228 00:13:27,004 --> 00:13:29,404 Speaker 2: have to listen to the book to hear the whole story. 229 00:13:29,444 --> 00:13:33,044 Speaker 2: But she lived with us for nine months and it 230 00:13:33,124 --> 00:13:36,964 Speaker 2: turned out she was running a massive drugs ring in 231 00:13:37,004 --> 00:13:43,084 Speaker 2: North London and then she disappeared and she used our 232 00:13:43,364 --> 00:13:47,804 Speaker 2: family's Volvo Silva Volvo as a getaway card an armed robbery. 233 00:13:48,164 --> 00:13:52,364 Speaker 2: I mean, like, so I don't know where if that's 234 00:13:52,404 --> 00:13:55,564 Speaker 2: my fascination which rus came from that. 235 00:13:55,564 --> 00:13:58,324 Speaker 1: I was like, it's a good origin story, Rachel. You 236 00:13:58,324 --> 00:13:58,724 Speaker 1: should have. 237 00:13:58,804 --> 00:14:02,124 Speaker 2: Raised it, should raise that orangent story. But I remember 238 00:14:02,204 --> 00:14:05,604 Speaker 2: thinking as a child like and even when they found 239 00:14:05,604 --> 00:14:08,404 Speaker 2: out she stolen loads of money and she told them 240 00:14:08,444 --> 00:14:10,444 Speaker 2: she found it under a tree in a park. 241 00:14:10,604 --> 00:14:12,924 Speaker 1: This is this is one of my favorite details. 242 00:14:13,444 --> 00:14:15,964 Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember asking my dad about this and he's like, oh, 243 00:14:16,044 --> 00:14:19,524 Speaker 2: these things can happen. And I'm thinking, what in Broomfield Park, 244 00:14:19,604 --> 00:14:21,164 Speaker 2: like the magic faraway. 245 00:14:20,764 --> 00:14:22,804 Speaker 1: Tree is going to Have you seen the movie Fargo? 246 00:14:23,044 --> 00:14:25,764 Speaker 1: You know sometimes you find large amounts of cash by 247 00:14:25,804 --> 00:14:28,164 Speaker 1: the side of the road, I swear. 248 00:14:28,204 --> 00:14:29,844 Speaker 2: And then they still kept her, and she came on 249 00:14:29,844 --> 00:14:32,364 Speaker 2: a holiday with us to Spain. And this is such 250 00:14:32,364 --> 00:14:34,164 Speaker 2: a random detail, but I remember she went to the 251 00:14:34,244 --> 00:14:37,604 Speaker 2: Queen concert and she loved Freddie Mercury and they were like, wow, 252 00:14:37,724 --> 00:14:40,724 Speaker 2: she loves Queen, right, so she must must be But 253 00:14:40,844 --> 00:14:45,124 Speaker 2: she was not good. She was very, very bad. So yeah, 254 00:14:45,124 --> 00:14:49,044 Speaker 2: so that is a really good example of a bad 255 00:14:49,044 --> 00:14:52,124 Speaker 2: trust decision. And I think the part that's stuck in 256 00:14:52,164 --> 00:14:55,764 Speaker 2: my head as to why my parents kept her was 257 00:14:55,804 --> 00:14:59,324 Speaker 2: it was too much effort someone else. 258 00:14:59,724 --> 00:15:03,284 Speaker 1: Yeah, aside when he said that, it was you know, 259 00:15:03,604 --> 00:15:04,644 Speaker 1: it's one of these things. 260 00:15:04,644 --> 00:15:06,524 Speaker 2: When you said it, I was like, this is so true. 261 00:15:06,524 --> 00:15:08,644 Speaker 1: I think the way you phrased it, because I have 262 00:15:08,644 --> 00:15:12,124 Speaker 1: it in quotes, and I know it says convenience trump's trust, right, 263 00:15:12,564 --> 00:15:15,364 Speaker 1: And that is I think such an important point because 264 00:15:15,724 --> 00:15:20,164 Speaker 1: we make decisions all the time based on convenience and 265 00:15:20,204 --> 00:15:24,804 Speaker 1: based on lower friction and inertia and being like, it's 266 00:15:24,884 --> 00:15:28,124 Speaker 1: just too much effort to do X or y. When 267 00:15:28,444 --> 00:15:31,004 Speaker 1: your nanny had more money, she said she found it 268 00:15:31,124 --> 00:15:34,084 Speaker 1: under the same tree again, right, this tree just happened 269 00:15:34,084 --> 00:15:36,084 Speaker 1: to be a money tree and there was more money 270 00:15:36,164 --> 00:15:40,044 Speaker 1: under it. And the fact that you know, if you 271 00:15:40,044 --> 00:15:44,844 Speaker 1: think about it logically, right, you're your father's a smart man, entrepreneur, 272 00:15:45,364 --> 00:15:47,844 Speaker 1: Like you just have to say, huh, what is going 273 00:15:47,924 --> 00:15:51,604 Speaker 1: on in the brain of this incredibly intelligent person. And 274 00:15:51,764 --> 00:15:53,884 Speaker 1: it's one of these things where you know, I've written 275 00:15:53,884 --> 00:15:57,884 Speaker 1: about con artists a few books back, and you know, 276 00:15:57,924 --> 00:16:02,364 Speaker 1: you see these patterns of smart people, people who know better, 277 00:16:02,484 --> 00:16:06,524 Speaker 1: and yet they end up in these situations where they 278 00:16:06,604 --> 00:16:11,444 Speaker 1: keep trusting, they keep ignoring red flags because it's convenient, right, 279 00:16:11,564 --> 00:16:15,004 Speaker 1: And and it also it also says something about you, Right, 280 00:16:15,324 --> 00:16:17,284 Speaker 1: you don't want to be the person who left your 281 00:16:17,404 --> 00:16:21,604 Speaker 1: kids with a drug dealer, right, So it's easier to 282 00:16:21,644 --> 00:16:25,364 Speaker 1: say no, no, she really is trustworthy. Those things aren't true, 283 00:16:25,604 --> 00:16:29,004 Speaker 1: even though it's your kids, right, and if there's any 284 00:16:29,084 --> 00:16:31,204 Speaker 1: chance that this person is going to be involved in 285 00:16:31,204 --> 00:16:33,924 Speaker 1: an armed robbery, get your kids the fuck out of there. 286 00:16:36,524 --> 00:16:39,804 Speaker 1: But it's just all of these computing computing things, which 287 00:16:40,404 --> 00:16:42,724 Speaker 1: is huge. 288 00:16:41,804 --> 00:16:44,284 Speaker 2: And you know, it's funny. Like I was thinking, I 289 00:16:44,284 --> 00:16:48,364 Speaker 2: love your book, The Confidence Game, and I was thinking about, 290 00:16:48,404 --> 00:16:50,404 Speaker 2: you know, on the chapters and I can't remember which 291 00:16:50,604 --> 00:16:53,204 Speaker 2: how you frame it. It's not the road but denal, 292 00:16:53,804 --> 00:16:58,444 Speaker 2: like the power of denal, because it's your identity and 293 00:16:59,324 --> 00:17:03,844 Speaker 2: that I think it explains so many reasons why people 294 00:17:03,844 --> 00:17:06,084 Speaker 2: don't quit and they don't get out of bad decisions, 295 00:17:06,484 --> 00:17:09,284 Speaker 2: even when they know the client isn't trustworthy or the 296 00:17:09,404 --> 00:17:12,564 Speaker 2: investment isn't good or the nanny isn't like. Why we 297 00:17:12,604 --> 00:17:15,484 Speaker 2: can't extricate ourselves from that situations. I think it's just 298 00:17:15,684 --> 00:17:17,524 Speaker 2: a fascinating human flaw. 299 00:17:18,284 --> 00:17:22,964 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. It really is. And you know 300 00:17:24,124 --> 00:17:25,684 Speaker 1: everything ended well right. 301 00:17:25,644 --> 00:17:27,804 Speaker 2: Here, you are nice. 302 00:17:30,004 --> 00:17:32,764 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know the other details of the story are 303 00:17:32,804 --> 00:17:35,444 Speaker 1: fascinating and everyone should listen to it. But yeah, it is, 304 00:17:35,684 --> 00:17:38,204 Speaker 1: you know, it is a really interesting part of human nature, 305 00:17:38,524 --> 00:17:41,724 Speaker 1: right The way that we trust how we make those decisions. 306 00:17:42,044 --> 00:17:44,444 Speaker 1: And you know when you when you said Scottish accent 307 00:17:44,524 --> 00:17:46,484 Speaker 1: right for the nanny. This is something you and I 308 00:17:46,484 --> 00:17:49,244 Speaker 1: have spoken about, which is kind of your your gut feelings, 309 00:17:49,324 --> 00:17:53,044 Speaker 1: your your gut instincts, Oh, I like this person based 310 00:17:53,084 --> 00:17:54,324 Speaker 1: on what right? 311 00:17:54,844 --> 00:17:55,164 Speaker 2: Why? 312 00:17:55,604 --> 00:17:59,004 Speaker 1: Why is that the case? And as I've as I've 313 00:17:59,044 --> 00:18:01,684 Speaker 1: told you, that is not a good way to make decisions. 314 00:18:01,884 --> 00:18:04,444 Speaker 1: You know, my gut said so we're very bad at 315 00:18:04,484 --> 00:18:07,404 Speaker 1: figuring out whether the gut is correct or not, and 316 00:18:07,484 --> 00:18:11,244 Speaker 1: so asking that question why is crucial over and over 317 00:18:11,364 --> 00:18:11,844 Speaker 1: and over. 318 00:18:12,324 --> 00:18:15,324 Speaker 2: Now you and can I just say, I don't know 319 00:18:15,364 --> 00:18:17,404 Speaker 2: if you find this, but when I challenge, because I 320 00:18:17,804 --> 00:18:20,404 Speaker 2: like to believe I'm an intuited person, right, and I'm 321 00:18:20,444 --> 00:18:22,524 Speaker 2: still kind of figuring out what that means. I think 322 00:18:22,564 --> 00:18:26,204 Speaker 2: it means that I'm good at reading the room and 323 00:18:26,204 --> 00:18:29,124 Speaker 2: I'm good at reading energy versus predicting how things are 324 00:18:29,124 --> 00:18:30,724 Speaker 2: going to turn out, which I think is what people 325 00:18:30,764 --> 00:18:33,844 Speaker 2: think intuition is, right, It's more of a I see 326 00:18:33,884 --> 00:18:36,524 Speaker 2: it as more reading the state someone is in and 327 00:18:36,524 --> 00:18:39,844 Speaker 2: how engaged they are with you versus what's going to happen. 328 00:18:40,764 --> 00:18:43,844 Speaker 2: And when I challenge people to say, look, it's not 329 00:18:43,884 --> 00:18:46,884 Speaker 2: the intuition is a bad thing, particularly in situations where 330 00:18:46,964 --> 00:18:50,444 Speaker 2: you recognize that pattern. It's the lack of information. So 331 00:18:50,484 --> 00:18:52,804 Speaker 2: when you rely on the intuition and you just don't 332 00:18:52,844 --> 00:18:57,524 Speaker 2: have enough reliable information, people hate this idea that they're like, 333 00:18:57,604 --> 00:19:01,204 Speaker 2: this flies in the face of emotional intelligence, and this, 334 00:19:01,444 --> 00:19:04,084 Speaker 2: you know, this is going to slow down decision making 335 00:19:04,164 --> 00:19:06,124 Speaker 2: and what do you expect that we're going to get 336 00:19:06,124 --> 00:19:08,284 Speaker 2: all this information about people? And how do we know 337 00:19:08,284 --> 00:19:11,324 Speaker 2: if the information is really liable? And I find it 338 00:19:11,404 --> 00:19:14,564 Speaker 2: really interesting that it sparks something so visceral and deep 339 00:19:14,604 --> 00:19:17,364 Speaker 2: in people that they rely on the intuition. 340 00:19:17,484 --> 00:19:20,484 Speaker 1: So Heavenly, yeah, people really don't like to hear that. 341 00:19:20,524 --> 00:19:23,284 Speaker 1: I find that. I find that as well. And it's 342 00:19:23,484 --> 00:19:26,284 Speaker 1: very funny because you know, I play poker as well, 343 00:19:26,644 --> 00:19:29,764 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of poker players who are 344 00:19:29,844 --> 00:19:34,004 Speaker 1: very mathematical, right, like, very quantitative. They use Solber outputs, 345 00:19:34,004 --> 00:19:37,124 Speaker 1: it's all very you know, very precise. And yet when 346 00:19:37,244 --> 00:19:39,964 Speaker 1: I say something like you should not trust your gut, 347 00:19:40,004 --> 00:19:43,524 Speaker 1: you should not trust they get so upset, right because 348 00:19:43,564 --> 00:19:46,364 Speaker 1: even someone's so mathematical to them, it seems like there's 349 00:19:46,604 --> 00:19:49,884 Speaker 1: you know, the sixth sense, there's something else that like 350 00:19:50,764 --> 00:19:53,444 Speaker 1: that you know has to be has to be there, 351 00:19:53,484 --> 00:19:56,364 Speaker 1: And I have to say, well, sometimes your gut is right, right, 352 00:19:56,604 --> 00:19:58,644 Speaker 1: but you need to ask, like, what is it based 353 00:19:58,684 --> 00:20:01,604 Speaker 1: on where's the information coming from? Do I have expertise 354 00:20:01,644 --> 00:20:05,244 Speaker 1: in this right? Is this something that is just unconscious 355 00:20:05,284 --> 00:20:08,364 Speaker 1: expertise or is it something that is just a feeling 356 00:20:08,444 --> 00:20:13,604 Speaker 1: based on who knows what? Right? And it could be 357 00:20:13,844 --> 00:20:17,684 Speaker 1: very good pattern recognition, or it could be bullshit, but 358 00:20:17,284 --> 00:20:20,444 Speaker 1: people really do not like to hear that, and it's 359 00:20:20,524 --> 00:20:23,764 Speaker 1: it's that's a I think that's such an interesting point 360 00:20:23,924 --> 00:20:24,844 Speaker 1: about trust. 361 00:20:25,124 --> 00:20:28,004 Speaker 2: And I think it's I'm doing this interesting thing tomorrow 362 00:20:28,084 --> 00:20:31,244 Speaker 2: on gen Z. This is the biggest study done in 363 00:20:31,284 --> 00:20:33,404 Speaker 2: the UK on how they trust and how they think 364 00:20:33,404 --> 00:20:36,084 Speaker 2: about the truth. And one of the things that I've 365 00:20:36,084 --> 00:20:38,724 Speaker 2: been thinking about related to this is how much they 366 00:20:39,644 --> 00:20:43,204 Speaker 2: not just gen Z, but rely on feelings over facts 367 00:20:43,284 --> 00:20:46,484 Speaker 2: to make a decision. And that is so much to 368 00:20:46,564 --> 00:20:50,684 Speaker 2: do with sort of the invisible hand of algorithms, So 369 00:20:50,884 --> 00:20:54,404 Speaker 2: the vertical nature of fees where you can find things 370 00:20:54,404 --> 00:20:57,524 Speaker 2: to validate how you're feeling, not even that day, that moment, 371 00:20:57,884 --> 00:20:59,764 Speaker 2: that then becomes the way you make a decision, and 372 00:21:00,204 --> 00:21:04,164 Speaker 2: that really frightens me. This idea of feeling your way 373 00:21:04,204 --> 00:21:07,844 Speaker 2: through a decision versus looking for reliable information. 374 00:21:08,324 --> 00:21:12,404 Speaker 1: That's incredibly scary that you know, I think that that 375 00:21:12,524 --> 00:21:16,404 Speaker 1: is something that is the opposite of what your whole 376 00:21:16,404 --> 00:21:20,284 Speaker 1: book is about about trust, right, and the opposite of 377 00:21:20,324 --> 00:21:23,724 Speaker 1: everything that I've tried to do, because feelings are sometimes 378 00:21:23,724 --> 00:21:27,524 Speaker 1: integral to a decision, but usually they're incidental. Right. There's 379 00:21:27,644 --> 00:21:31,084 Speaker 1: a whole area of psychology that talks about how poor 380 00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:34,404 Speaker 1: our decision making ability is when we rely on feelings 381 00:21:34,404 --> 00:21:36,044 Speaker 1: because most of the time they have nothing to do 382 00:21:36,164 --> 00:21:40,284 Speaker 1: with the decision at hand. And there's even a term 383 00:21:40,364 --> 00:21:43,324 Speaker 1: called mood as information when we use kind of the 384 00:21:43,324 --> 00:21:46,124 Speaker 1: mood we're in as information when we shouldn't. Right, it's 385 00:21:46,124 --> 00:21:50,404 Speaker 1: a it's a major fallacy, and it really influences decisions 386 00:21:50,444 --> 00:22:07,364 Speaker 1: in a negative way. Let's talk about something a little 387 00:22:07,364 --> 00:22:10,364 Speaker 1: bit more positive, because you you in reviewed some really 388 00:22:10,404 --> 00:22:15,884 Speaker 1: interesting people who have used trust in really interesting ways, 389 00:22:16,644 --> 00:22:19,124 Speaker 1: and I was, you know, some very inspiring people like 390 00:22:19,124 --> 00:22:24,404 Speaker 1: the Spanish teacher ms rad right, who who is Well, 391 00:22:24,444 --> 00:22:26,364 Speaker 1: why don't you tell us a little bit about her? 392 00:22:26,604 --> 00:22:29,964 Speaker 1: And about this distinction which I think is really really 393 00:22:30,084 --> 00:22:32,764 Speaker 1: nice that you make between earning trust and building trust. 394 00:22:33,724 --> 00:22:38,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, Miss rad Oh, she was. I shouldn't pick favorites, 395 00:22:38,404 --> 00:22:42,564 Speaker 2: but it really was incredible. She's was a Teacher of 396 00:22:42,564 --> 00:22:45,444 Speaker 2: the Year in Illinois, and I think the thing that 397 00:22:45,484 --> 00:22:48,364 Speaker 2: really struck me about her is that she's working in 398 00:22:48,364 --> 00:22:51,524 Speaker 2: a pretty tough environment and she's working with often with 399 00:22:51,644 --> 00:22:56,244 Speaker 2: children that have never learned how to trust anyone. They've 400 00:22:56,244 --> 00:22:59,204 Speaker 2: never learned how to trust a teacher, a parent, a custodian, 401 00:22:59,324 --> 00:23:05,084 Speaker 2: a friend, and she feels like she's teaching them Spanish. 402 00:23:05,124 --> 00:23:07,044 Speaker 2: But actually the outcome of the year is that they've 403 00:23:07,084 --> 00:23:10,404 Speaker 2: learned how to trust someone and that someone trusts them. 404 00:23:11,124 --> 00:23:14,524 Speaker 2: And there's so much to the things that she does. 405 00:23:14,604 --> 00:23:18,244 Speaker 2: But what I realized, we're listening to listen to it again. 406 00:23:18,844 --> 00:23:21,844 Speaker 2: First of all, everything she does is free, like it's 407 00:23:21,884 --> 00:23:25,444 Speaker 2: not big gestures, they're really small things. So she makes 408 00:23:25,484 --> 00:23:29,204 Speaker 2: sure before the first day of term she knows every 409 00:23:29,364 --> 00:23:33,204 Speaker 2: child's first name and last name, and not only that, 410 00:23:33,244 --> 00:23:36,564 Speaker 2: she knows their interests. She speaks to the other teachers. 411 00:23:36,604 --> 00:23:39,444 Speaker 2: She finds out what they enjoy, where they're struggling, even 412 00:23:39,444 --> 00:23:42,404 Speaker 2: where they like to sit in the classroom, and so 413 00:23:43,004 --> 00:23:45,324 Speaker 2: you know, when they walk in, they're like, Oh, this 414 00:23:45,364 --> 00:23:49,124 Speaker 2: person cares. They took the time to understand all these things. 415 00:23:49,484 --> 00:23:53,764 Speaker 2: She works on the premise that she's a giver of trust, 416 00:23:54,004 --> 00:23:56,844 Speaker 2: so they don't have it, and so many teachers don't 417 00:23:56,844 --> 00:23:58,644 Speaker 2: do this right. Like it's like you have to prove 418 00:23:58,724 --> 00:24:03,284 Speaker 2: yourself to me, and that proving yourself to me is 419 00:24:03,324 --> 00:24:06,884 Speaker 2: such an old way of thinking about power, which, to 420 00:24:06,924 --> 00:24:10,204 Speaker 2: your question, is tied to this distinction between how do 421 00:24:10,284 --> 00:24:13,484 Speaker 2: I build trust versus how do I earn trust? When 422 00:24:13,524 --> 00:24:16,444 Speaker 2: you say how do I build trust, that is like 423 00:24:17,444 --> 00:24:19,324 Speaker 2: I'm going to behave in a certain way and then 424 00:24:19,364 --> 00:24:22,364 Speaker 2: I expect you to follow me. I expect you to 425 00:24:22,444 --> 00:24:26,804 Speaker 2: do something for me, versus what miss Rad was demonstrating 426 00:24:26,924 --> 00:24:29,564 Speaker 2: is that actually, you know, you have to continuously earn trust, 427 00:24:30,444 --> 00:24:32,244 Speaker 2: and the best way to do that is to give 428 00:24:32,284 --> 00:24:36,124 Speaker 2: it first, and then it becomes this really powerful loop. 429 00:24:36,844 --> 00:24:40,324 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that a lot of bosses and business 430 00:24:40,404 --> 00:24:44,084 Speaker 1: leaders should listen to your lesson with miss Rad because 431 00:24:44,244 --> 00:24:46,244 Speaker 1: it seems like it would really improve a lot of 432 00:24:46,244 --> 00:24:50,044 Speaker 1: office cultures, because you do talk about this about kind 433 00:24:50,044 --> 00:24:52,764 Speaker 1: of the flip side. When you do have cultures where 434 00:24:53,164 --> 00:24:56,404 Speaker 1: there isn't trust right, where people micromanage, where you feel 435 00:24:57,324 --> 00:25:00,684 Speaker 1: like you're you're not being empowered, and then people do 436 00:25:00,764 --> 00:25:04,884 Speaker 1: all sorts of shit to you know, when they feel 437 00:25:04,884 --> 00:25:06,924 Speaker 1: like that, when they're like, fine, you don't trust me. 438 00:25:07,164 --> 00:25:11,244 Speaker 1: You know, you have the example of it Spencer reports, Right, Okay, fine, 439 00:25:11,444 --> 00:25:14,044 Speaker 1: like how do I expense this bottle of wine? Like 440 00:25:14,084 --> 00:25:16,044 Speaker 1: how do I figure out a way to screw you over? 441 00:25:16,204 --> 00:25:17,884 Speaker 1: Because you don't trust me? 442 00:25:18,204 --> 00:25:18,404 Speaker 2: Right? 443 00:25:18,444 --> 00:25:20,764 Speaker 1: And I have actually found that. So my next book 444 00:25:20,804 --> 00:25:23,364 Speaker 1: is about cheating. But you find that when you have 445 00:25:23,484 --> 00:25:27,204 Speaker 1: these kinds of things and people feel like they can cheat, right, 446 00:25:27,284 --> 00:25:29,564 Speaker 1: they feel like and they can feel like they can 447 00:25:29,604 --> 00:25:34,444 Speaker 1: do things like take office supplies home, take stuff from 448 00:25:34,444 --> 00:25:36,284 Speaker 1: the fridge that was brought from the office and just 449 00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:38,284 Speaker 1: take it home, and they don't feel like that's stealing, 450 00:25:38,324 --> 00:25:40,724 Speaker 1: even though it is right, that's not why it's therefore, 451 00:25:40,724 --> 00:25:42,964 Speaker 1: but they're like, well, you know, if you're if you're 452 00:25:43,004 --> 00:25:45,444 Speaker 1: not trusting me, if you're doing all of these things, 453 00:25:45,524 --> 00:25:49,804 Speaker 1: then I'm going to act accordingly. And in this classroom, 454 00:25:49,964 --> 00:25:53,604 Speaker 1: you see, you know, students who misbehaved and who were 455 00:25:53,604 --> 00:25:59,804 Speaker 1: problems students suddenly become leaders and really promising students because 456 00:25:59,884 --> 00:26:02,604 Speaker 1: of this trust dynamic shift. And I think that this 457 00:26:02,724 --> 00:26:06,724 Speaker 1: is just such a powerful and wonderful lesson that we 458 00:26:06,804 --> 00:26:09,924 Speaker 1: can use in a lot of different cultures. Right your school, 459 00:26:10,004 --> 00:26:12,084 Speaker 1: even though I think it's incredibly important in the classroom, 460 00:26:12,204 --> 00:26:14,764 Speaker 1: but I think it's important as we think about corporate 461 00:26:14,804 --> 00:26:17,644 Speaker 1: cultures all the way up. And it's it's a point 462 00:26:17,684 --> 00:26:21,644 Speaker 1: that I think people don't necessarily understand because sometimes they 463 00:26:21,684 --> 00:26:23,844 Speaker 1: think that, well, you know, you need to kind of 464 00:26:24,684 --> 00:26:26,564 Speaker 1: you need to urge, you need to you need to 465 00:26:26,644 --> 00:26:29,764 Speaker 1: kind of micro manage and do these kinds of things, 466 00:26:30,244 --> 00:26:32,404 Speaker 1: because well, who are they, right, I'm the boss. 467 00:26:33,364 --> 00:26:36,764 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's it's such an obvious thing to say, 468 00:26:36,764 --> 00:26:38,884 Speaker 2: but we take trust for granted until it's gone, and 469 00:26:38,884 --> 00:26:41,684 Speaker 2: then it brings out the very worst behaviors, whether that's 470 00:26:41,724 --> 00:26:45,204 Speaker 2: cheating or survival. So I had a student she put 471 00:26:45,244 --> 00:26:47,044 Speaker 2: this so well because she was saying, like, you know, 472 00:26:47,084 --> 00:26:48,724 Speaker 2: why don't want we talk about trust? Do we so 473 00:26:48,804 --> 00:26:52,044 Speaker 2: often talk about mistrust or distrust or a lack of trust? 474 00:26:52,164 --> 00:26:54,084 Speaker 2: And then she admitted she didn't really understand the difference 475 00:26:54,084 --> 00:26:57,444 Speaker 2: between those things, which is interesting in itself mistrust, distrust, 476 00:26:57,564 --> 00:27:00,044 Speaker 2: lack of trust. But then she said, you know, do 477 00:27:00,084 --> 00:27:02,404 Speaker 2: you know what to me, like when I've been in 478 00:27:02,484 --> 00:27:05,804 Speaker 2: a work environment and you can just feel like someone 479 00:27:06,244 --> 00:27:09,084 Speaker 2: took the plug out and the trust is seeping out 480 00:27:09,084 --> 00:27:12,364 Speaker 2: that organization. She said, you know, you owned a goldfish, 481 00:27:12,364 --> 00:27:14,084 Speaker 2: and you can imagine like she's doing this in an 482 00:27:14,164 --> 00:27:16,844 Speaker 2: NBA lecture hall. It's about one hundred and twenty students, 483 00:27:16,884 --> 00:27:19,124 Speaker 2: and I'm like, yes, I owned a goldfish and it 484 00:27:19,164 --> 00:27:21,564 Speaker 2: was called Flash Gordon. I'm trying to give her permission 485 00:27:21,604 --> 00:27:23,724 Speaker 2: to tell the story here, and she's like, your goldfish 486 00:27:23,804 --> 00:27:25,404 Speaker 2: was called Flash Gordon. I was like, could we get 487 00:27:25,444 --> 00:27:28,524 Speaker 2: to the mesophor so. Then she says, you don't only 488 00:27:28,524 --> 00:27:31,524 Speaker 2: own a goldfish, and you're not a particularly responsible pet 489 00:27:31,604 --> 00:27:34,564 Speaker 2: owner golfish owner, and you don't fill the bowl up, 490 00:27:35,044 --> 00:27:38,484 Speaker 2: and gradually, over time the water goes down and you 491 00:27:38,564 --> 00:27:41,764 Speaker 2: don't really notice the water going down until one day 492 00:27:41,804 --> 00:27:45,484 Speaker 2: you come home. And she did this with actions. The 493 00:27:45,524 --> 00:27:49,964 Speaker 2: fish is gold ping like like like it can't breathe, 494 00:27:50,084 --> 00:27:53,084 Speaker 2: it's suffocating, and the fish is about to die. And 495 00:27:53,124 --> 00:27:55,764 Speaker 2: she said that's what I think happens to trust, is 496 00:27:55,844 --> 00:28:03,204 Speaker 2: like it just dissipates until people feel suffocated. So I 497 00:28:03,244 --> 00:28:07,004 Speaker 2: think this is It really struck me because the Edelman 498 00:28:07,044 --> 00:28:10,924 Speaker 2: Trust Barometer just came out, which bigs feelings about and 499 00:28:11,124 --> 00:28:14,404 Speaker 2: gallop at the same time the biggest trust surveys, and 500 00:28:14,564 --> 00:28:18,124 Speaker 2: both of them showed that the lowest the highest trust falls. 501 00:28:18,364 --> 00:28:21,044 Speaker 2: So the biggest difference in trust points it's not in 502 00:28:21,084 --> 00:28:25,364 Speaker 2: politics or media, it's in employees. It's like a ten 503 00:28:25,524 --> 00:28:30,564 Speaker 2: point four in employee engagement and trust. And that's that's 504 00:28:30,764 --> 00:28:33,284 Speaker 2: very right. It's huge right that you always be with 505 00:28:33,324 --> 00:28:36,124 Speaker 2: disengaged and or they are not behaving well, and that 506 00:28:36,244 --> 00:28:38,124 Speaker 2: is that is toxic for both sides. 507 00:28:38,164 --> 00:28:42,724 Speaker 1: The equation that is that is concerning. And you talk 508 00:28:42,804 --> 00:28:46,044 Speaker 1: about distrust, right, and you and you talk about I 509 00:28:46,084 --> 00:28:47,964 Speaker 1: think the goldfish story is a great one. You know, 510 00:28:48,004 --> 00:28:53,724 Speaker 1: you talk about kind of the three d's, right, the defensiveness, disengagement, disenchantment, 511 00:28:54,164 --> 00:28:57,204 Speaker 1: and how you don't always see those happening. It's very 512 00:28:57,204 --> 00:29:00,324 Speaker 1: easy to miss. It's very easy to not have the 513 00:29:00,324 --> 00:29:06,724 Speaker 1: communication infrastructure needed to kind of have those cycles not 514 00:29:06,924 --> 00:29:09,004 Speaker 1: take place, and then you end up like a gold 515 00:29:09,004 --> 00:29:11,244 Speaker 1: being goal fish and you're not quite sure how to 516 00:29:11,244 --> 00:29:14,284 Speaker 1: fix it, and then you get a consultant in there, 517 00:29:14,364 --> 00:29:17,524 Speaker 1: and you end up refilling the water tank without actually 518 00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:21,804 Speaker 1: addressing any of the issues that made the water go 519 00:29:21,924 --> 00:29:24,964 Speaker 1: down in the first place. So you know, maybe you 520 00:29:25,204 --> 00:29:27,484 Speaker 1: refill the water, but you know that goldfish is not 521 00:29:27,524 --> 00:29:28,164 Speaker 1: going to do well. 522 00:29:28,844 --> 00:29:32,404 Speaker 2: Why wasn't anyone watching the boat? Why did no one care? Why? Like, 523 00:29:32,564 --> 00:29:35,564 Speaker 2: why was no one nourishing these more things? So I 524 00:29:35,604 --> 00:29:38,364 Speaker 2: do think it's a really good metaphor to think about 525 00:29:38,444 --> 00:29:39,364 Speaker 2: workplace culture. 526 00:29:53,124 --> 00:29:56,244 Speaker 1: Now, you know, let's turn this positive again. You you've 527 00:29:56,284 --> 00:29:59,844 Speaker 1: talked to people who actually have very good workplace culture. 528 00:30:00,084 --> 00:30:04,204 Speaker 1: But let's start with a hotel hospitality. You talked to 529 00:30:04,404 --> 00:30:07,204 Speaker 1: someone you Jane you right, who's the CEO of the 530 00:30:07,244 --> 00:30:12,404 Speaker 1: Dorchester and he well, tell me a little bit about him, 531 00:30:12,404 --> 00:30:15,004 Speaker 1: and tell me what you learned from him about trust 532 00:30:15,204 --> 00:30:18,484 Speaker 1: and kind of good ways to have that rapport because 533 00:30:18,524 --> 00:30:20,404 Speaker 1: he's very good not just a building trust, but at 534 00:30:20,484 --> 00:30:21,284 Speaker 1: repairing trust. 535 00:30:21,724 --> 00:30:25,604 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm fascinated by hotels. I don't know about you, 536 00:30:25,684 --> 00:30:28,004 Speaker 2: but like, it's not I want to go into hospitality, 537 00:30:28,124 --> 00:30:30,844 Speaker 2: but they just I'm always like the theater and how 538 00:30:30,844 --> 00:30:34,444 Speaker 2: they run and what goes on behind the scenes. So 539 00:30:34,684 --> 00:30:36,604 Speaker 2: for listen, you don't know the Dorors to collection, it's 540 00:30:36,684 --> 00:30:38,924 Speaker 2: it's it's some of the nicest hotels in the world, 541 00:30:39,044 --> 00:30:42,004 Speaker 2: like it's the bel Air and the Beverly Hills and 542 00:30:42,444 --> 00:30:46,604 Speaker 2: that that really fancy one in Paris. The hotels are incredible, 543 00:30:46,724 --> 00:30:51,524 Speaker 2: l Maurice Maurice right. And I did get to stay 544 00:30:51,524 --> 00:30:54,484 Speaker 2: in one as a work project, which was a real. 545 00:30:55,164 --> 00:30:57,924 Speaker 1: Rachel, can I do a work project hotel? 546 00:31:01,524 --> 00:31:02,964 Speaker 2: It was so fine. It was one of those trips 547 00:31:02,964 --> 00:31:05,204 Speaker 2: where I digressed, but I said to him, I really 548 00:31:05,244 --> 00:31:07,124 Speaker 2: don't want to go. And then I got there and 549 00:31:07,124 --> 00:31:09,284 Speaker 2: I was like, this is the best work trip ever 550 00:31:09,524 --> 00:31:13,804 Speaker 2: because this link to the story. The way they make 551 00:31:13,884 --> 00:31:19,044 Speaker 2: people feel at home, and the way they recognize guests 552 00:31:19,164 --> 00:31:23,444 Speaker 2: and not in like chocolate on your pillow ways I'd 553 00:31:23,484 --> 00:31:27,684 Speaker 2: never experienced, not seen. I'd never experienced that feeling before, 554 00:31:28,124 --> 00:31:30,604 Speaker 2: and so I was like, how do they do this? 555 00:31:31,204 --> 00:31:34,164 Speaker 2: And they're so good at doing it that they run 556 00:31:34,164 --> 00:31:37,404 Speaker 2: a training program where they don't just train their own staff, 557 00:31:37,604 --> 00:31:41,124 Speaker 2: they train British Airways, Marks and Spent, all these companies 558 00:31:41,164 --> 00:31:44,084 Speaker 2: around the world train on culture because they know how 559 00:31:44,164 --> 00:31:47,324 Speaker 2: to do it. And the thing that struck me was that, 560 00:31:47,804 --> 00:31:51,564 Speaker 2: first of all, he'd worked in every single department of 561 00:31:51,604 --> 00:31:54,164 Speaker 2: the hotel. He'd even like been on the roof or 562 00:31:54,164 --> 00:31:57,324 Speaker 2: repaired the air conditioners. You know, he'd been in the 563 00:31:57,444 --> 00:31:59,124 Speaker 2: wash and not like for the day, you know how 564 00:31:59,124 --> 00:32:01,684 Speaker 2: some of the CEOs do it for an hour like 565 00:32:01,724 --> 00:32:07,084 Speaker 2: a rotation. He understood the hotel like a body. He 566 00:32:07,364 --> 00:32:11,804 Speaker 2: understood the nervous system, He understood the components, and he 567 00:32:12,404 --> 00:32:16,324 Speaker 2: knew how all of this was interconnected and if one 568 00:32:16,404 --> 00:32:19,324 Speaker 2: thing went down, how it impacted others. So that was 569 00:32:19,604 --> 00:32:24,964 Speaker 2: just like, wow, how many leaders understand the whole ecology 570 00:32:25,124 --> 00:32:28,884 Speaker 2: and cultural system of their business. The other thing that 571 00:32:28,924 --> 00:32:34,124 Speaker 2: I thought was just incredible was how much he empowered 572 00:32:34,724 --> 00:32:38,844 Speaker 2: his team to do the right thing. And you know, 573 00:32:38,924 --> 00:32:42,084 Speaker 2: this wasn't like the mised alarm call. He spoke about 574 00:32:42,084 --> 00:32:46,004 Speaker 2: a lot because that's a big thing, and that if 575 00:32:46,124 --> 00:32:48,684 Speaker 2: they missed an alarm calls. I mean people still use 576 00:32:48,804 --> 00:32:52,564 Speaker 2: alarm calls, which I find strange that the personal reception 577 00:32:53,284 --> 00:32:56,724 Speaker 2: has the autonomy to book another flight a business class 578 00:32:56,724 --> 00:33:01,044 Speaker 2: fight without any kind of approval, regardless of the cost. 579 00:33:01,924 --> 00:33:04,364 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was absolutely crazy. I was like, well, yeah, 580 00:33:04,364 --> 00:33:06,244 Speaker 1: that is the way to remedy it, right, Like if 581 00:33:06,284 --> 00:33:09,604 Speaker 1: you make me miss my float because you screwed up up, 582 00:33:10,044 --> 00:33:12,044 Speaker 1: then you know, and he says, you know, if it 583 00:33:12,124 --> 00:33:15,764 Speaker 1: costs ten thousand dollars, doesn't matter, right, Yeah. 584 00:33:15,324 --> 00:33:17,124 Speaker 2: And now this is an elite I mean, this is 585 00:33:17,124 --> 00:33:19,404 Speaker 2: a privilege, right, this is an incredible hotel where people 586 00:33:19,404 --> 00:33:21,524 Speaker 2: a pay an absolute fortune. But the point of the 587 00:33:21,564 --> 00:33:24,684 Speaker 2: story was that the apology has to match. 588 00:33:25,084 --> 00:33:29,404 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that Eugenio has a really good 589 00:33:29,484 --> 00:33:33,564 Speaker 1: rubric for it, you know. Basically, I think the to me, 590 00:33:33,724 --> 00:33:37,044 Speaker 1: the most important point of how you know he speaks 591 00:33:37,044 --> 00:33:40,004 Speaker 1: about this is that trust is going to be broken, right, 592 00:33:40,324 --> 00:33:43,524 Speaker 1: Like we have this illusion that like, oh, this is 593 00:33:43,564 --> 00:33:47,524 Speaker 1: a trustworthy person, this trustworthy institution, trustworthy blah blah blah. 594 00:33:47,564 --> 00:33:52,164 Speaker 1: So I can trust a blanket, right, shit goes wrong? Yeah, right, 595 00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:56,644 Speaker 1: that's life. It happens all the time. People are going 596 00:33:56,684 --> 00:33:59,924 Speaker 1: to break your trust on an individual level and on 597 00:33:59,964 --> 00:34:03,364 Speaker 1: an institutional level. How do you respond to that? 598 00:34:03,484 --> 00:34:03,724 Speaker 2: Yeah? 599 00:34:03,964 --> 00:34:08,124 Speaker 1: How do you repair it? How do you actually make 600 00:34:08,164 --> 00:34:10,644 Speaker 1: it so that the trust doesn't go away, right, so 601 00:34:10,684 --> 00:34:13,324 Speaker 1: that it becomes stronger. I think that that is the 602 00:34:13,364 --> 00:34:16,364 Speaker 1: crucial thing here, Right. It's not like there's this beautiful 603 00:34:16,404 --> 00:34:18,484 Speaker 1: thing and you can trust this and you can't trust this. 604 00:34:19,044 --> 00:34:22,284 Speaker 1: That is not how it works. It is much more complex. 605 00:34:22,324 --> 00:34:24,964 Speaker 2: I think to your point, what's so powerful by his 606 00:34:25,044 --> 00:34:27,684 Speaker 2: story is that he says it happens like a hundred 607 00:34:27,684 --> 00:34:29,804 Speaker 2: times in a day in a hotel. More like he's 608 00:34:29,844 --> 00:34:33,844 Speaker 2: constantly repairing trust. And there is a distinction between those 609 00:34:33,884 --> 00:34:36,364 Speaker 2: most moments and what people would call a trust crisis, 610 00:34:36,764 --> 00:34:39,364 Speaker 2: you know, so a trust crisis like an AWE spill 611 00:34:39,804 --> 00:34:44,124 Speaker 2: Cambridge Analytica, that's how people tend to think of trust 612 00:34:44,124 --> 00:34:46,964 Speaker 2: breaking down. And yes, of course those things are going 613 00:34:47,044 --> 00:34:49,764 Speaker 2: to hur and there's a lot of repair to be 614 00:34:49,804 --> 00:34:54,044 Speaker 2: done there, but it's it's micro moments that often, particularly 615 00:34:54,044 --> 00:34:55,724 Speaker 2: if you're in a customer centric or even just an 616 00:34:55,724 --> 00:34:59,964 Speaker 2: employee centric company, they're the things that people don't think about, 617 00:35:00,004 --> 00:35:02,844 Speaker 2: like how do you empower people to repair those those things? 618 00:35:03,164 --> 00:35:05,244 Speaker 2: And then the other key thing tied to risk, which 619 00:35:05,284 --> 00:35:09,804 Speaker 2: I thought was really key, is he doesn't want people 620 00:35:09,844 --> 00:35:12,524 Speaker 2: to be risk adversed. He doesn't want his employees to 621 00:35:12,564 --> 00:35:15,684 Speaker 2: be risk adverse. So it's how does he set the 622 00:35:15,724 --> 00:35:19,164 Speaker 2: boundaries and be really clear about expectations so that they 623 00:35:19,204 --> 00:35:22,204 Speaker 2: can play and they can delight, and they can do 624 00:35:22,364 --> 00:35:27,644 Speaker 2: things still following service protocol. And I think that was 625 00:35:27,724 --> 00:35:29,924 Speaker 2: just amazing to learn how they do that. 626 00:35:30,724 --> 00:35:32,764 Speaker 1: I think that that is a really crucial point. You 627 00:35:32,844 --> 00:35:36,324 Speaker 1: have to empower people to take risks because a lot 628 00:35:36,364 --> 00:35:40,764 Speaker 1: of times, you know, trust gets broken and things go wrong, 629 00:35:40,924 --> 00:35:44,484 Speaker 1: and people, you know, you've created a culture where they 630 00:35:44,524 --> 00:35:47,764 Speaker 1: will be punished, right if they if they go and 631 00:35:47,804 --> 00:35:50,444 Speaker 1: do something else. And I think this is actually a 632 00:35:50,604 --> 00:35:54,204 Speaker 1: huge organizational problem, at least in the United States. I 633 00:35:54,204 --> 00:35:56,244 Speaker 1: don't know if it's the case in the UK as well, 634 00:35:56,404 --> 00:35:59,404 Speaker 1: where businesses say, oh, you know, we love risk taking. 635 00:35:59,884 --> 00:36:02,164 Speaker 1: You know, we want our employees to be creative and 636 00:36:02,204 --> 00:36:04,604 Speaker 1: innovative and blah blah blah. But it didn't work out, 637 00:36:04,684 --> 00:36:07,404 Speaker 1: Oh you're fired. Right, What kind of a culture are 638 00:36:07,444 --> 00:36:11,004 Speaker 1: you actually creating where you pay lip service to this 639 00:36:11,164 --> 00:36:14,564 Speaker 1: but you don't actually inspire that kind of behavior because 640 00:36:14,604 --> 00:36:16,604 Speaker 1: people are scared. They know that if you take a 641 00:36:16,684 --> 00:36:19,364 Speaker 1: risk and it doesn't work out, that that's not good 642 00:36:19,364 --> 00:36:19,644 Speaker 1: for you. 643 00:36:20,404 --> 00:36:22,204 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's something I mean, I'd love to 644 00:36:22,244 --> 00:36:25,084 Speaker 2: ask you these questions because I've often wandered like it's 645 00:36:25,084 --> 00:36:27,164 Speaker 2: taking risk of privilege. 646 00:36:27,444 --> 00:36:31,244 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that taking risk is a privilege because 647 00:36:31,884 --> 00:36:34,444 Speaker 1: you know, I've written about this and I've thought a 648 00:36:34,444 --> 00:36:37,324 Speaker 1: lot about this, you know, a really nice way of 649 00:36:37,324 --> 00:36:41,404 Speaker 1: thinking about it. Is you know, when you're looking at 650 00:36:42,084 --> 00:36:46,284 Speaker 1: all of these classic biases that Danny Kahneman talked about, right, 651 00:36:47,084 --> 00:36:51,204 Speaker 1: risk aversion, loss of version, all of these fallacies of 652 00:36:51,244 --> 00:36:55,084 Speaker 1: the human mind, right where you prefer the certain outcome 653 00:36:55,124 --> 00:36:56,964 Speaker 1: over the gamble, even though the gamble has a higher 654 00:36:56,964 --> 00:37:00,044 Speaker 1: expected value, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, they become 655 00:37:00,124 --> 00:37:05,684 Speaker 1: completely correct and not fallacious if you can't afford to lose. Right, 656 00:37:06,244 --> 00:37:09,444 Speaker 1: if you are someone who you know you need this 657 00:37:09,524 --> 00:37:12,164 Speaker 1: money to pay the rent, you need this money to 658 00:37:13,004 --> 00:37:16,964 Speaker 1: get medicine, even though the risk might actually the expected 659 00:37:17,044 --> 00:37:20,244 Speaker 1: value might be like millions, right, and you can get 660 00:37:20,284 --> 00:37:23,964 Speaker 1: a sure thing of however much it is, you will 661 00:37:24,004 --> 00:37:26,284 Speaker 1: take the shore thing or if the loss right, if 662 00:37:26,364 --> 00:37:30,124 Speaker 1: you gamble and you could potentially make a lot, but 663 00:37:30,164 --> 00:37:33,404 Speaker 1: you could also lose something that's going to affect your 664 00:37:33,404 --> 00:37:37,364 Speaker 1: ability to pay for your for your livelihood. You shouldn't 665 00:37:37,364 --> 00:37:40,164 Speaker 1: take that gamble, right, because you should actually take the 666 00:37:40,204 --> 00:37:43,084 Speaker 1: sure thing always. And so you see how all of 667 00:37:43,084 --> 00:37:48,404 Speaker 1: these quote unquote fallacies can be completely correct depending on 668 00:37:48,444 --> 00:37:51,204 Speaker 1: who you are, what risk context you're coming from, and 669 00:37:51,284 --> 00:37:54,204 Speaker 1: so absolutely risk taking is a privilege. It means you 670 00:37:54,244 --> 00:37:57,084 Speaker 1: can afford to lose. Right, you can afford the risk 671 00:37:57,124 --> 00:38:01,924 Speaker 1: of ruin and some people can't. And sometimes you don't 672 00:38:02,004 --> 00:38:04,324 Speaker 1: understand why someone doesn't take a risk, and you have 673 00:38:04,404 --> 00:38:06,684 Speaker 1: to ask, well, okay, what is it about their background? 674 00:38:06,684 --> 00:38:08,884 Speaker 1: And this I think we've come full circles of trust. 675 00:38:10,244 --> 00:38:15,164 Speaker 1: What is it about the trust kind of the support 676 00:38:15,764 --> 00:38:18,604 Speaker 1: and everything about them that can enable them to take 677 00:38:18,644 --> 00:38:21,484 Speaker 1: these sorts of risks And you know, something that you 678 00:38:21,644 --> 00:38:23,564 Speaker 1: end with which I think is a good place for 679 00:38:24,164 --> 00:38:27,204 Speaker 1: us turned And this is where it's going with trust sleeps, 680 00:38:27,284 --> 00:38:30,284 Speaker 1: right and confidence in the unknown. And I think trust 681 00:38:30,284 --> 00:38:33,124 Speaker 1: sleeps are also a privilege, but I. 682 00:38:33,044 --> 00:38:36,324 Speaker 2: Think so too so a trust sleep is whenever you 683 00:38:36,364 --> 00:38:38,284 Speaker 2: take a risk to do something new or to do 684 00:38:38,324 --> 00:38:41,444 Speaker 2: something differently in your life. But actually writing the book 685 00:38:41,484 --> 00:38:43,644 Speaker 2: made me think about them really differently, because if you 686 00:38:43,684 --> 00:38:47,404 Speaker 2: think about going back to wonderful miss rad and it 687 00:38:47,444 --> 00:38:50,164 Speaker 2: made me think, you know, trust sleeps are a privilege, 688 00:38:50,164 --> 00:38:53,924 Speaker 2: but they're also permission. What made me realize is like 689 00:38:53,924 --> 00:38:57,244 Speaker 2: often people go, okay, well you need to provide security, 690 00:38:57,284 --> 00:38:59,604 Speaker 2: and you have to provide that's usually financial the way 691 00:38:59,604 --> 00:39:03,044 Speaker 2: they think about it. And what she does is she says, actually, 692 00:39:03,044 --> 00:39:06,284 Speaker 2: a trust sleep is when the child says the first 693 00:39:06,284 --> 00:39:09,564 Speaker 2: word in Spanish, because when you speak in and the 694 00:39:09,684 --> 00:39:12,844 Speaker 2: language and there's a risk that everyone is going to 695 00:39:12,924 --> 00:39:15,604 Speaker 2: laugh at you in that class, like that's actually taking 696 00:39:15,644 --> 00:39:18,804 Speaker 2: a risk, and that what she has to do is 697 00:39:18,964 --> 00:39:22,684 Speaker 2: create the comfort and the security that no one's gonna 698 00:39:22,724 --> 00:39:26,124 Speaker 2: laugh and there's gonna be no repercussions. And the thing 699 00:39:26,124 --> 00:39:28,324 Speaker 2: that they think about is like when those kids say 700 00:39:28,324 --> 00:39:31,044 Speaker 2: the first word and everyone sort of looks at them 701 00:39:31,324 --> 00:39:33,764 Speaker 2: with admiration, and then they start saying a whole sentence. 702 00:39:34,044 --> 00:39:37,044 Speaker 2: That's the permission piece. That's what I mean by like 703 00:39:37,724 --> 00:39:39,964 Speaker 2: if you think if listening says going, well, I'm just 704 00:39:39,964 --> 00:39:41,764 Speaker 2: not very good at taking risks and I really don't 705 00:39:41,844 --> 00:39:43,604 Speaker 2: enjoy them, and I don't even know how to take 706 00:39:43,604 --> 00:39:48,924 Speaker 2: a trust leap. Start really small, right because it's forward momentum, 707 00:39:49,004 --> 00:39:51,404 Speaker 2: like once you feel it and you're like, oh no, 708 00:39:51,524 --> 00:39:53,964 Speaker 2: I'm speaking a whole paragraph in front of the class. 709 00:39:54,004 --> 00:39:57,444 Speaker 2: And I think a lot about those children when I'm 710 00:39:57,484 --> 00:40:00,604 Speaker 2: trying to encourage people to take trust leaps. They don't 711 00:40:00,764 --> 00:40:04,404 Speaker 2: have to be enormous physical feats. They don't have to 712 00:40:04,444 --> 00:40:07,884 Speaker 2: be leaving your job and starting a new company. They 713 00:40:07,924 --> 00:40:10,484 Speaker 2: don't have to be taking a math bet or leaving 714 00:40:10,524 --> 00:40:12,964 Speaker 2: your partner, whatever it may be, and she some of 715 00:40:12,964 --> 00:40:16,204 Speaker 2: the most powerful trust leaps are really really small, where 716 00:40:16,204 --> 00:40:19,444 Speaker 2: they get higher high, and they give you permission to 717 00:40:19,564 --> 00:40:25,644 Speaker 2: discover something else about other people, about yourself, about your community, 718 00:40:26,204 --> 00:40:27,004 Speaker 2: or about the world. 719 00:40:27,884 --> 00:40:31,204 Speaker 1: Look at us ending on such a powerful and positive 720 00:40:31,244 --> 00:40:35,044 Speaker 1: and inspirational note. I think I think that that actually 721 00:40:35,164 --> 00:40:37,204 Speaker 1: is such a great message to hand done right, that 722 00:40:37,724 --> 00:40:40,924 Speaker 1: these don't have to be huge things, and that everything 723 00:40:40,964 --> 00:40:43,804 Speaker 1: about trust you can start small right and build on that. 724 00:40:43,924 --> 00:40:46,484 Speaker 1: And I think that that's very empowering. And I hope 725 00:40:46,484 --> 00:40:50,284 Speaker 1: that people do listen to your full audiobook because I 726 00:40:50,284 --> 00:40:53,644 Speaker 1: think you'll learn a lot. I learned a lot about 727 00:40:53,764 --> 00:40:56,084 Speaker 1: the nature of trust and how we can be more 728 00:40:56,124 --> 00:40:59,444 Speaker 1: trustworthy and also create more trust in the world, which 729 00:40:59,444 --> 00:41:01,204 Speaker 1: I think is crucially important. 730 00:41:01,324 --> 00:41:03,604 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can't wait to read more about cheating, 731 00:41:03,604 --> 00:41:06,564 Speaker 2: which is always fascinating me. So it's always a delight 732 00:41:06,564 --> 00:41:08,284 Speaker 2: and pleasure. And thank you for appearing in the book 733 00:41:08,284 --> 00:41:10,124 Speaker 2: as well. You did a joke. 734 00:41:10,084 --> 00:41:13,484 Speaker 1: So of course, thank you so much for joining me. 735 00:41:14,084 --> 00:41:16,684 Speaker 1: I could always talk to you four hours, and I 736 00:41:16,684 --> 00:41:18,964 Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time to talk about trust and 737 00:41:19,084 --> 00:41:25,884 Speaker 1: risk and all of it. Let us know what you 738 00:41:25,924 --> 00:41:28,324 Speaker 1: think of the show. Reach out to us at Risky 739 00:41:28,364 --> 00:41:31,724 Speaker 1: Business at pushkin dot fm. And by the way, if 740 00:41:31,724 --> 00:41:34,524 Speaker 1: you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have some bonus content 741 00:41:34,604 --> 00:41:37,724 Speaker 1: for you. We'll be answering a listener question each week 742 00:41:38,084 --> 00:41:39,764 Speaker 1: that's coming up right after the credits. 743 00:41:40,244 --> 00:41:43,484 Speaker 3: And if you're not subscribing yet, consider signing up for 744 00:41:43,684 --> 00:41:45,844 Speaker 3: just six ninety nine a month. What a nice price 745 00:41:46,204 --> 00:41:48,924 Speaker 3: you get access to all that premium content and ad 746 00:41:49,004 --> 00:41:51,724 Speaker 3: for listening across Pushkin's entire network of shows. 747 00:41:52,004 --> 00:41:55,044 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 748 00:41:54,724 --> 00:41:57,084 Speaker 3: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co 749 00:41:57,124 --> 00:42:01,164 Speaker 3: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 750 00:42:01,204 --> 00:42:04,724 Speaker 3: by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang. 751 00:42:05,284 --> 00:42:08,324 Speaker 3: Sally Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is 752 00:42:08,404 --> 00:42:10,724 Speaker 3: Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruguer. 753 00:42:11,444 --> 00:42:13,844 Speaker 1: If you like this show, please rate and review us 754 00:42:13,844 --> 00:42:16,204 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too. Thanks so much 755 00:42:16,244 --> 00:42:16,764 Speaker 1: for tuning in.