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Speaker 1: A zone media. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to let you know. This is a compilation episode.

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Speaker 1: So every episode of the week that just happened is

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Speaker 1: here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to in a long stretch if

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Speaker 1: you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every

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Speaker 1: day this week, there's going to be nothing new here

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Speaker 1: for you, But you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: This could be a giant disaster. Those were the words

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Speaker 2: that Elon Musk texted biographer Walter Isaacson on a Friday

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Speaker 2: evening in September twenty twenty two, claiming that the Ukrainian

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Speaker 2: military was attempting a sneak attack on the Russian naval

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Speaker 2: fleet in Sebastopol. In the annexed region of Crimea must

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Speaker 2: have been providing Starlink Internet to the Ukrainian military for

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Speaker 2: months as part of their ongoing conflict against Russia's invasion,

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Speaker 2: and the resourceful Ukrainians began using Stalink as a way

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Speaker 2: to remotely control the Kamikazi drones. Musk, having spoken to

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Speaker 2: a Russian ambassador, saw Crimea as a red line that,

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Speaker 2: when crossed, would escalate the conflict, potentially even provoking a

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Speaker 2: nuclear retaliation, and so he acted disabling or depending on

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Speaker 2: who you ask, refusing to enable styling access in the

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Speaker 2: Crimea region. When the Ukrainian drone serbs approached their targets,

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Speaker 2: they suddenly stopped communicating with their operators and eventually washed

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Speaker 2: up ashore, harmless and impotent. While the specific details of

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Speaker 2: this episode are hazy, the core truth is unambiguously clear.

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk is a supremely powerful individual and through action

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Speaker 2: or inaction, has the ability to influence the outcome of

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Speaker 2: combat operations in the bloodiest war inflicted upon European generations.

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Speaker 2: It's a level of power typically only reserved for nation

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Speaker 2: state actors, not tech company CEOs. Throughout history, we've seen

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Speaker 2: plenty of examples of individuals and companies with outsized country

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Speaker 2: like power and influence. Musk isn't unique in that regard,

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Speaker 2: nor is he the sole cautionary tale about why this

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be allowed to happen. As a private individual operating

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Speaker 2: within his capacities as CEO, he's unconstrained by democratic accountability,

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Speaker 2: and as a private businessman, he has his own conflicts

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Speaker 2: of interest from Tesla's long history of sourcing aluminum from

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Speaker 2: Russian companies to his contacts with the highest echelons of

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Speaker 2: Russian leadership, including Vladimir Putin himself. Historically, the only real

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Speaker 2: accountability mechanism for people like muscusbeed in the media, and

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Speaker 2: yet in this case, the media is chosen instead to

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Speaker 2: fate the Elon musk creation myth that he's a trailblazing

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Speaker 2: real life Tony Stark that will take humanity to the stars,

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Speaker 2: rather than asking him many hard questions of any kind.

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Speaker 2: This situation is the product of a media industry dominated

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Speaker 2: by journalists seeking access to popular public figures, pulling their

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Speaker 2: punches in the process. The most notable access journalist is

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Speaker 2: Kara Swisher, who has spent decades covering the tech industry

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Speaker 2: with a pantomime like aggression, asking the quote unquote hard

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Speaker 2: questions without ever really pushing the level of discover that

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Speaker 2: might make a source um willing to pus aarticipate. Swisher famously,

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Speaker 2: in an interview during the All Things Digital conference in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten, convinced Meta CEO then called Facebook Mark Zuckerberg

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Speaker 2: to take off his hoodie after asking him a challenging

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Speaker 2: question about Facebook's invasion of privacy, only to be distracted

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Speaker 2: by the design of the inside of what he was wearing,

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Speaker 2: effectively objecting to her own line of questioning for entertainment purposes.

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Speaker 2: Eight years later, Swisher would interview Zuckerberg about Cambridge Analytica

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Speaker 2: and Russian interference in the twenty sixteen elections, lobbing softball

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Speaker 2: questions like make a case for keeping info wars on

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Speaker 2: Facebook and responding to Zuckerberg outrights saying he wouldn't ban

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Speaker 2: Holocaust and Sandy Hook deniers by asking how it made

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Speaker 2: Zuckerberg feel when people said Facebook killed people Nyanmar. The

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Speaker 2: Swisher house style is simple, ask a big meeting question,

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Speaker 2: and then failed to interrogate a single answer in any way,

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Speaker 2: shape or form a round. A month later, Swisher would

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Speaker 2: interview Elon Musk, who at that point had aided harassment

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Speaker 2: campaigns against reporters, called a man saving children a pedo file,

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Speaker 2: and had his companies faced multiple allegations of sexual harassment

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Speaker 2: and racism. When asked about his fights with the press

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Speaker 2: over Twitter must claim that the Wall Street Journal, whose

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Speaker 2: Wisher used to work for, outright lied about investigation into

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Speaker 2: Tesla's production figures, to which Swisher asked him if he

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Speaker 2: realized the dangers of him saying such things about the press,

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Speaker 2: and proceeded to help Must paper over his claims, saying

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Speaker 2: that he quote just doesn't like falsehoods. One of the

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Speaker 2: richest and most powerful men in the world sat before Swisher,

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Speaker 2: and her interrogation involved asking him simple questions about why

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Speaker 2: he was doing things, lightly teasing him, and saying that

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Speaker 2: he looks and I quote rested in calm. To be clear,

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Speaker 2: this is an ultra powerful billionaire, and this is a

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Speaker 2: was at the time enterprising journalist who everyone looked to.

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Speaker 2: In April twenty twenty two, the week that Must announced

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Speaker 2: the Twitter acquisition, Swusher gave a strange interview to James D.

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Speaker 2: Walsh of The New Yorker, defending Musk, who had of

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Speaker 2: course waived you diligence on the acquisition, did not seem

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Speaker 2: to have a single clear plan about how he might

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Speaker 2: run the same. She claimed that you couldn't pin Musk down,

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Speaker 2: that he was quite complex, and that we would be

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Speaker 2: surprised about what he likes and doesn't like. Musk, who

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Speaker 2: has invented none of the core products that make him rich,

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Speaker 2: is a quote visionary that gave Swish a genuine answers

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Speaker 2: and arguably the most damning thing she could have said,

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Speaker 2: would call her back. That was her litmus test that

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Speaker 2: he would return her calls. Her ultimate defense of Musk

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Speaker 2: was that and I quote inventors were very difficult, problematic people,

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Speaker 2: and the moderation on Twitter was not working at the

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Speaker 2: time of acquisition. These are all, of course, demonstrably force

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Speaker 2: based on the events that followed, the growth of hate speech,

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Speaker 2: the lack of accountability, the biggest face on the platform,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that every third post seems to be

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Speaker 2: some kind of spambot, either selling T shirts or pornography

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Speaker 2: or cryptocurrency scams. Swisher only turned on Musk when he

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Speaker 2: emailed her calling her an asshole in November twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: including a screenshot where, according to Swisher, she was actually

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Speaker 2: defending him, saying that the US government should pay Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk for starling. Since then, Musk has gone from a

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Speaker 2: difficult to pin down visionary to carver Swisher calling his

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Speaker 2: social network a and this is agonizingly horribly written a

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Speaker 2: thunderdome of toxic asininity. Swisher, it appears, only worried about

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Speaker 2: what she called Musk's price of cocktail of ignorance and

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Speaker 2: big ego until he was rude to her. One of

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Speaker 2: the most famous tech journalists in the world who has

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Speaker 2: failed to take any real shot at any of the

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Speaker 2: people she's questioned across decades of doing this has now

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Speaker 2: been reduced to making epic dunks that sound like a

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Speaker 2: twenty one year old Harry Potter fan trying to cast

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Speaker 2: a spell. It's embarrassing. Swisher isn't the sole media figure

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Speaker 2: guilty of having treated Elon Musk with kid gloves or

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Speaker 2: treating his bloviating with otherwise on ducrid duity. This is

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Speaker 2: a problem that affects almost every news outlet and reporter

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Speaker 2: that covers billionaires. The assumption is always the billionaires will

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Speaker 2: act with empathy, patience, and grace, three things that Musk, Bezo, Zuckerberg,

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Speaker 2: and their ilk totally lack. Failing that, one would suppose

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Speaker 2: they'd act like a normal person, a losing proposition. If

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Speaker 2: you've ever read Jeff Bezos's texts, these people are not

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Speaker 2: like us. They do not experience human struggle. They don't

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Speaker 2: have bills or bosses or fear of anything, let alone authority.

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Speaker 2: Each and every billionaire is effectively above the law, and

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Speaker 2: that is the place that you must start to understand them.

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Speaker 2: It's deeply frustrating, especially when you consider the myriad of

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Speaker 2: opportunities where the media could have taken must task and

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Speaker 2: held him accountable. Take high Poop, for example, Musk's concept

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Speaker 2: for a high speed mass transit system where pressurized capsules

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Speaker 2: would hurtle between cities through vacuum tubes at speeds as

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Speaker 2: fast as seven hundred and sixty miles an hour. Hyperloop

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Speaker 2: Musk promise would allow commuters to travel between San Francisco

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Speaker 2: and Los Angeles in as little as thirty minutes, and

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Speaker 2: with the network powered primarily by solar power, with no

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Speaker 2: real environmental impact. If anything, this could have been a

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Speaker 2: much bigger deal than Tesla. High speed transit that doesn't

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Speaker 2: burn fossil fuels could truly have changed the world. So

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Speaker 2: what do you think happened? Do you think that Must

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Speaker 2: delivered on this on this product that helped play a

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Speaker 2: vital role in cementing his image as a real life

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Speaker 2: Tony Stark. Not only would it be faster and cheaper

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Speaker 2: than anything currently in existence, but it'd be greener too.

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Speaker 2: What followed was a gushing or at least gredulous flow

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Speaker 2: of media coverage, including from The Washington Post and The

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Speaker 2: New York Times, both papers of record. It wasn't until

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Speaker 2: the hype gradually died down that people began asking serious

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Speaker 2: questions about hyperloop's viability. An exhaustive report published by the

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Speaker 2: Transportation Research Laboratory earlier this year raised a serious questions

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Speaker 2: about the feasibility of hyperloop, particularly when it comes to

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Speaker 2: passenger transportation. Riders, it noted, would be exposed to extreme

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Speaker 2: physical and mental stress, with the noise, vibrations, and rapid

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Speaker 2: acceleration and deceleration inflicting an unknowable toll on the human body.

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Speaker 2: Questions about safety still linger, and then there's the thorny

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Speaker 2: issue of cost, with high bloop requiring an all new infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: Even the shortest routes would involve a multi billion dollar

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Speaker 2: upfront investment. These points were for the most part absent

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Speaker 2: entirely from the earliest coverage of high ploop. The media

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Speaker 2: also missed the fact that hypeloop wasn't even a new idea.

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Speaker 2: In the nineteenth century, countless invetors toyed with the notion

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Speaker 2: of an atmospheric railway where vehicles traveled through a near

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Speaker 2: vacuum environment on the momentum of pressurized air. A small

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Speaker 2: demonstrator route was even built by Ismbard Kingdom Brunel, the

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Speaker 2: legendary British engineer who designed the first transatlantic steamship. While

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Speaker 2: Highpoloop differed in some meaningful ways, it was still nonetheless

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Speaker 2: much like many Musk products, a derivative of an earlier idea,

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Speaker 2: The Boring Company. Musk's hilariously named Tunnel Boring startup earned

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Speaker 2: similar credulous coverage upon its inception, driven in no small

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Speaker 2: part due to Musk's decision to raise working capital by

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Speaker 2: selling branded flamethrowers dubbed the not a flame Thrower to

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Speaker 2: anyone that paid five hundred dollars. This stunt, aside, the

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Speaker 2: Boring Company one praise due to its stated mission to

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Speaker 2: reduce the cost of digging tunnels, which are often an

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Speaker 2: inevitable and expensive part of road and mass transportation development.

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Speaker 2: Like hyperloop, The Boring Company fed into the Tony Stark

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Speaker 2: image of a billionaire that could, through sheer force of will,

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Speaker 2: change the world and fix once intractable problems. I quote

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Speaker 2: Meashable when they said, Musk build machines to travel more

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Speaker 2: efficiently on the Earth and above it, so traveling through

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Speaker 2: Earth seems within the realm of his capabilities. If anyone

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Speaker 2: can transform the seemingly absent minded half joke into world

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Speaker 2: changing technology, it's Elon Musk, said The Guardian, And then

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Speaker 2: reality here. The Boring Company's first commercial project, a one

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Speaker 2: point seven mile tunnel in Las Vegas, where I in

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Speaker 2: fact live, wasn't a traditional road tunnel or part of

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Speaker 2: an underground metro system. It was, in fact far less impressive,

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Speaker 2: a single lane loop where human driven tests, there's varied

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Speaker 2: passengers between points of interest in the Las Vegas Convention Center,

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Speaker 2: and where traffic jams are a routine frustration for passengers.

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Speaker 2: Other projects in other cities, most notably Chicago and Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: have either been canceled or are on indefinite hiatus. There

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Speaker 2: is nothing that the Boring Company has done. The tunnel

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Speaker 2: in Vegas is useless. It's claustrophobic, it's ugly, feels like

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Speaker 2: being in an airport lounge, except there's no food. It's strange.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like it solves a problem other than

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Speaker 2: how can Elon must get more attention? And that really

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Speaker 2: is what he craves Musk's wafer thin skin, his volatility,

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Speaker 2: and his propensity to overpromise an under deliver has never

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Speaker 2: been a secret. While he's been able with some success

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Speaker 2: to obfiscate a misdirect through a well crafted media persona,

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Speaker 2: the clues have always been there. Musk's reality distortion field

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Speaker 2: goes some way to explaining how he has managed to

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Speaker 2: amass the extent of the power he has and how

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Speaker 2: he cemented himself into our nation's most vital industries like transportation, communications, infrastructure,

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Speaker 2: and social media. He has a fairly consistent battle plan.

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Speaker 2: He makes a big promise, he delivers enough to make

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Speaker 2: the media believe he's for real, and then he relies

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Speaker 2: upon the fact that very few parts of the media

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Speaker 2: will ever follow up with him. There is no challenging

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk in the media. The thinnest amounts of criticism

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Speaker 2: are usually meant by a horde of crazed Tesla fans

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Speaker 2: or at times Elon Musk himself. He's created a paper

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Speaker 2: thin media image built on the smallest, thinnest s structures

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Speaker 2: of reality. He has found a way to manipulate the

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Speaker 2: media using his large amounts of power, money, and his

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Speaker 2: few friends. Elon Musk is a danger to society. He's

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Speaker 2: a capricious demagogue desperate for more power and attention, and

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Speaker 2: he will do whatever he wants, whereever he wants, wherever

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Speaker 2: he wants, because we are societally unprepared for billionaires. It's

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Speaker 2: no longer healthy, or safe or honest to see Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk as a dorky charlatan, carrying sinks into offices or

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Speaker 2: destroying social networks to settle insular beefs. Elon Musk is

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Speaker 2: a nation state level actor with a net worth larger

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Speaker 2: than the GDP of Ukraine. He associates only with equally

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Speaker 2: spurious reactionaries like Bill Maher, Ronda Santis and David Sachs,

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Speaker 2: and he's easily influenced by anyone who agrees with his

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Speaker 2: thinly backed beliefs. Musk isn't polarizing, He's polarization given life,

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Speaker 2: an empty man made of contrarianism and grievances, and he'll

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Speaker 2: happily change the world based on his own personal beliefs.

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Speaker 2: As a result of our market driven government and compliant media,

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Speaker 2: Musk has caused and will continue to cause human suffering.

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Speaker 2: An actual death in his pursuit of fame, power and capital.

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Speaker 2: It's time to stop treating him as just an entrepreneur,

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Speaker 2: an investor, an executive, or an industry blow hard. As

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Speaker 2: a result of our market driven government and compliant media,

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Speaker 2: Musk has caused and will continue to cause human suffering

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Speaker 2: an actual death in his pursuit of fame, power and capital.

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Speaker 2: It's time to stop treating him as just an entrepreneur,

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Speaker 2: an investor, an executive, or an industry blow hard and

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Speaker 2: see him as a man who has used his incredible

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Speaker 2: wealth and status to twist the world to his petty, ignorant,

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Speaker 2: and selfish desires. It's important to realize with complete clarity

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Speaker 2: that Musk makes electric cars that are sold around the

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Speaker 2: world and sells rockets to NASA. He runs Twitter x

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Speaker 2: or whatever it's called these days, one of the largest

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Speaker 2: communication networks in the world, and of course Starlink, the

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Speaker 2: satellite isp used throughout the world that is specifically marketed

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Speaker 2: to places that are otherwise inaccessible to traditional broadband. This

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Speaker 2: is not just the goofy redditor posting epic means and

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Speaker 2: saying exactly anymore. Elon Musk has chosen to and will

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Speaker 2: continue to choose to use his influence over these networks

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Speaker 2: to interfere with global events, and because the media and

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Speaker 2: the government has been so utterly tepid in their approach

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Speaker 2: to him, he's accumulated such power and influence that he

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Speaker 2: is on some level unstoppable. Since his acquisition of Twitter

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two and the subsequent layoffs of six

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Speaker 2: thousand people, Musk has revealed to the world his deep

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Speaker 2: seated reactionary beliefs and his noxious, pathetic victim complex. He

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Speaker 2: has become obsessed with the woke mind virus, a term

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Speaker 2: that he uses to vaguely refer to everything from progressive

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Speaker 2: education on college campuses to San Francisco's growing homeless problem.

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Speaker 2: He's made Twitter's box prob one that he tried to

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Speaker 2: use to cancel the original acquisition, significantly worse, littering replies

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Speaker 2: with bots trying to sell your t shirts or make

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Speaker 2: you join the latest script ocurrency scam, some of which

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Speaker 2: even include elon Musk's face. He took Twitter's verification system,

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Speaker 2: a flawed yet workable solution to verifying whether a tweet

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Speaker 2: came from the person who actually sent it, and turned

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Speaker 2: it into an eight dollars a month premium account that

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Speaker 2: verifies nothing other than whether someone is capable of completing

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Speaker 2: a credit card transaction, and by destroying Twitter's trust and

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Speaker 2: safety team, Musk has allowed the world's real time communications

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Speaker 2: channel to become one rife with racism and other hate speech,

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Speaker 2: leading to Fortune five hundred advertisers worrying that the network

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Speaker 2: and I quote perpetuates racism, which was raised in a

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Speaker 2: Semaphore story from earlier in this year, Musk has shown

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Speaker 2: he is more than willing to do things based on

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Speaker 2: not what's good for the world, his businesses, or his users,

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Speaker 2: but on what will confirm his biases and protect his

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Speaker 2: financial interests. As a result of these moronic and malicious choices,

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Speaker 2: Twitter's valuation is tanked less than a third of the

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Speaker 2: forty four billion dollars he paid for it, losing half

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Speaker 2: of their advertising revenue and changing their name to X,

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Speaker 2: which some have argued killed further billions of the original

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Speaker 2: company's brand value. Being a selfish, ignorant, and gormous Charlatan,

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Speaker 2: Musk has now blamed Jewish nonprofit the Anti Defamation League

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Speaker 2: for ruining his company, claiming that the ADL had pressured

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Speaker 2: advertisers into killing X slash Twitter. Musk had previously sued

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Speaker 2: the Center for Countering Digital Hate, another nonprofit that published

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Speaker 2: research showing the growth and hate speech on the platform.

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Speaker 2: Musk is now fine with the ADL because they resumed

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Speaker 2: advertising a deeply confused and utterly pointless exercise that only

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Speaker 2: sought to further increase bigotry on his website. For all

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Speaker 2: his statements around freedom of speech, Musk is the ultimate

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Speaker 2: capitalist dictator, willing to use his money to intimidate and

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Speaker 2: censor those who dared to criticize him. He's already done

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Speaker 2: so on Twitter, banning an account that tracked publicly available

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Speaker 2: records of private jet flights, censoring over four hundred tweets

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Speaker 2: critical of Turkish President Erdigan in the week's running up

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Speaker 2: to an election, suppress accounts critical of Indian Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Nearendra Modi, and cut access to links to newsletter platform

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Speaker 2: Substack when they launched a network competitive to Twitter. Musk

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Speaker 2: is a propagandist willing to work with any fellow reactionaries

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Speaker 2: who feel scorned by progressivism, personally helping Republican presidential candidate

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Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis launch his campaign on Twitter and funneling money

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Speaker 2: to alleged sex trafficker Andrew Tate through Twitter's Creator program

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Speaker 2: on our nation's roads. Muscus created another problem. In March

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, According to The Washington Post, a seventeen

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Speaker 2: year old stepped off of a school bus on North

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Speaker 2: Carolina Highway five point sixty one. As he stepped off

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Speaker 2: a testa Model y allegedly with Tesla's autonomous autopilot engaged

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Speaker 2: hit him at forty five miles an hour, throwing him

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Speaker 2: into the windshield and leaving him lying face down on

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Speaker 2: the pavement. He thankfully survived, but broke and fractured his

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Speaker 2: leg in the process. Incident, which the National Highway Traffic

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Speaker 2: Safety Administration is still investigating, is part of a growing

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Speaker 2: list of victims of Tesla's open beta test of quote

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Speaker 2: full self driving, a buggy dangerous software available on hundreds

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Speaker 2: of thousands of Tesla vehicles allowing users to let the

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Speaker 2: car drive, which has resulted in the deaths of seventeen

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Speaker 2: people and led to seven one hundred and thirty six

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Speaker 2: other injuries and crashes. In theory, activating Tesla's full self

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Speaker 2: driving lets your Tesla take the wheel, making turns, avoiding

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Speaker 2: other vehicles, maintaining speed avoiding objects and theoretically helping you

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Speaker 2: arrive safely at your destination. The problem is that this

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Speaker 2: has only ever been a beta, meaning that every new

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Speaker 2: release involves some sort of new bug, such as the

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Speaker 2: one that Electric Car blog editor Fred Lambert claimed tried

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Speaker 2: to kill him in September twenty twenty three by trying

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Speaker 2: to veer at highway speed into the median strip on

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Speaker 2: the road. One might imagine that such a thing is illegal.

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Speaker 2: Effectively unleashing beta software onto the world's road without sufficiently

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Speaker 2: testing it would for any normal person lead to imprisonment

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Speaker 2: and a lifetime of fines. Musk, thanks to his incredible

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Speaker 2: wealth and power equivalent to that of a small nation,

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Speaker 2: has managed to avoid much scrutiny with the occasional government

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Speaker 2: investigations that never seem to go anywhere, and despite a

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Speaker 2: well documented culture of racism and sexism, very little seems

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Speaker 2: to happen to test the at all. This is because

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Speaker 2: our society, in its government, its media, and its citizen

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Speaker 2: try is woefully unprepared to deal with billionaires. Musk is

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Speaker 2: able to operate as a noxious, abusive, and reckless monster

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Speaker 2: in public, using his companies as vehicles to lend himself,

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Speaker 2: money and political weapons with little scrutiny or punishment on

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Speaker 2: their own. One might fob off these concerns as one

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Speaker 2: time things, but the reality is there's a pattern of

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Speaker 2: malicious and capricious acts or one after another, again and again,

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Speaker 2: done in broad daylight for all to see. Musk has

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Speaker 2: shown he will push what ever envelope he sees fit,

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Speaker 2: and as Ronan Pharaoh's New York Magazine piece shows, there

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Speaker 2: are very few people in the government, former and otherwise

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Speaker 2: anywhere really, not investors, not other members of the Silicon

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Speaker 2: Valley elite, who are willing or able to get in

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Speaker 2: the way. Musk is so unbelievably rich, well connected, and

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Speaker 2: powerful that he can push around just about anybody, even

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Speaker 2: if they work for the Pentagon. Yet Musk's desperation for

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Speaker 2: attention and adulation mean that he can be pulled in

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Speaker 2: any direction that feels like it scorns his critics, And

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Speaker 2: when his critics are pretty much anyone who isn't a

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Speaker 2: right wing lunatic, it almost guarantees he will continue to

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Speaker 2: power around with authoritarian regimes that will influence his remarkably

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Speaker 2: malleable brain. The actual solution will be to treat Musk

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Speaker 2: as what he is, a dangerous entity with a higher

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Speaker 2: GDP than Ukraine and an ego that rivals their invaders

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Speaker 2: president regardless of what happened in crimea Musk is the

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Speaker 2: ability to know when attacks are happening and influence their

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Speaker 2: outcome as a result of his for profit, privately held

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Speaker 2: satellite internet communications firm that the US government is paying for.

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk is a nation state global threat and must

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Speaker 2: be treated as such. He must be treated as if

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Speaker 2: he will make decisions based only on what he believes

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Speaker 2: will benefit or amuse him. He's the wish dot Com

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Speaker 2: version of Bond's earned stavro Blofeld, an offensive, charmless, and

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Speaker 2: boorish monster that has successfully bought his way into the

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Speaker 2: elite and found that no matter what he does, their

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Speaker 2: patience is unlimited and their scruples are few. Musk, like

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Speaker 2: another high profile narcissist, the former President Donald Trump, routinely

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Speaker 2: finds himself ensnared in litigation, both in regulators and private individuals,

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Speaker 2: even though the government never really seems to actually do

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Speaker 2: anything to him. The SEC is currently investigating Musk for

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Speaker 2: securities violations concerning his acquisition of Twitter. This would be

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Speaker 2: his third tryst with the Commission, the first in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: the second in twenty nineteen. In both cases, very little happen. However,

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Speaker 2: at the same time, he faces actions from former employees

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Speaker 2: stiffed on severance pay and from those who allege age

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Speaker 2: and gender discrimination with factors in their dismissal from Twitter.

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Speaker 2: For Musk, these lawsuits are unlikely to be anything other

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Speaker 2: than the minor annoyance rather than any kind of existential

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Speaker 2: throat or something that otherwise curbs is most egregious of behaviors.

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Speaker 2: There are people who could help. There are people that

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Speaker 2: could sway.

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Speaker 3: You on Musk.

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Speaker 2: You know, people as rich as him, Tim Cook, Mark Benioff,

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Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of the world's

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Speaker 2: billionaires feel no need to correct Musk's behavior. They don't

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Speaker 2: need to interfere or even chide him for his disgraceful

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00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: acts because doing so would potentially make their actions and

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Speaker 2: wealth more conspicuous, which is far more important to protect

403
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: than free speech or human lives really, anything that normal

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00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: people face. They may act as if they have civic

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Speaker 2: responsibility for the few people we have that could actually

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Speaker 2: change things. The ones with the war chest to box

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00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 2: out Musk. Blocking X from app stores and excluding him

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00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 2: from their circles are sitting on their hands. One approach

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00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: proposed by Stephen Feldstein in The Atlantic is to treat

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Speaker 2: Musks businesses as they are vital to national security, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, take them into public control when necessary.

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Speaker 2: This wouldn't be without precedent. The legislation that allows this,

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00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: the Defense Production Act, has been invoked fifty times since

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Speaker 2: its inception, both in times of war and civil necessity

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00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: like the twenty twenty two infant formula shortage. While Stalink

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Speaker 2: would remain a privately held company, it would be obliged

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Speaker 2: to prioritize the national need. Full nationalization, Falsteine noted, would

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00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 2: also be a possibility if Musk failed to cooperate. Full

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Speaker 2: nationalization would be a drastic measure. But at this point,

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00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: what other options exist for Elon Musk? What other options

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Speaker 2: exist for someone that is so reckless, so dangerous, so selfish,

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00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: and so capricious. What options exist to deal with someone

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Speaker 2: who has inserted himself into the most vital aspects of

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Speaker 2: the American economy, making himself billions of dollars off of governments, subsidies,

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Speaker 2: and contracts. How the hell do you handle someone who

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00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: has insulated himself from media scrutiny despite holding immense nation

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Speaker 2: state power. Musk is not a goofy weirdow or the

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Speaker 2: real life Tony Stark. He's a fragile, meanhearted ogre one

429
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: hell bent on seeing his whims brought to life at

430
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: any cost. The only way to write about this man,

431
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 2: the only fair coverage of Elon Musk, the only clear

432
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: perception of this man, is to frame him as a villain,

433
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 2: a bigot, a bully, and a crook. But what do

434
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: you do about the man who has everything?

435
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 4: Hello? Everyone, it's me James, and I am joining you

436
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: today for another and long series of the little recordings

437
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: where I ask you to give us your money. Once again,

438
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 4: I am asking you to support the mutual aid work

439
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 4: being done at the border. I'm recording this in November,

440
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 4: and this week we have terrible weather forecasts that will

441
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 4: make conditions in her Cumba extremely dangerous for people who

442
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 4: are detained out there by the Department of Homeland Security.

443
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: It will mean that it's no exaggeration to say that

444
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 4: people's lives will be at risk and that the important

445
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 4: mutual aid work that's already been done will only become

446
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: more important as we get rain, we get snow, and

447
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 4: we get cold temperatures, and people continue to be detained

448
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: without shelter, food, water, or adequate clothing. If you would

449
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: like to support those efforts, you can find the way

450
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: to do so at link tree slash Border Kindness. There's

451
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 4: a dot before the ee, so it's l I NK

452
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 4: tr ee slash Border Kindness. I'll also post a link

453
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 4: on my Twitter if you'd like to find it there.

454
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 5: Thank you, Hello, everybody, Welcome to It could happen here.

455
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 5: This is Sharene. I'm back to talk about Palestine because

456
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 5: it's important, But when it comes to the history of

457
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 5: the creation of Israel and the subsequent ethnic cleansing and

458
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 5: mass expulsion of the Palestinian people, I feel like there's

459
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: a part of history that often gets overlooked. People usually

460
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 5: say Israel was created in nineteen forty eight, but the

461
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 5: intent to create it actually started decades before that. We're

462
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 5: going to be talking about the Balfour Declaration, which resulted

463
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: in a significant upheaval in the lives of Palestinians and

464
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 5: was issued over a century ago. On November two, nineteen seventeen.

465
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 5: The declaration turned the Zionist aim of establishing a Jewish

466
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 5: state in Palestine into a reality. The pledge is generally

467
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 5: viewed as one of the main catalysts of the Nekba,

468
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 5: the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in nineteen forty eight, and

469
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 5: the conflict that ensued with the zion Estate of Israel.

470
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 5: The Balfour Declaration is regarded as one of the most

471
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 5: controversial and contested documents in the modern history of the

472
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 5: Arab world. So what is it the Balfour Declaration It

473
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 5: means or is translated to Balfour's Promise in Arabic. It

474
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 5: was a public pledge by Britain in nineteen seventeen, declaring

475
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 5: its aim to quote establish a national home for the

476
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 5: Jewish people in Palestine. The declaration came in the form

477
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 5: of a letter from Britain's then Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour,

478
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 5: addressed to Lionel Walter Rothschild, a figurehead of the British

479
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 5: Jewish community at the time. The declaration was made during

480
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 5: World War One, which was just a reminder from nineteen

481
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 5: fourteen to nineteen eighteen, and this declaration was included in

482
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 5: the terms of the British mandate for Palestine after the

483
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 5: dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. So on November two, nineteen seventeen,

484
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 5: the Balfour Declaration became the basis for the movement to

485
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: create a Jewish state in Palestine. A week later, the

486
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 5: declaration was published in the Times of London for all

487
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 5: the public to see. The content of the letter is

488
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 5: rather short, so I'm just going to read some of

489
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 5: it right now. It goes, Dear Lord Rothschild, I have

490
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 5: much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His

491
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 5: Majesty's Government, the following Declaration of Sympathy with the Jewish

492
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 5: Zionist Aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by

493
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 5: the Cabinet. His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment

494
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 5: in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,

495
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 5: and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement

496
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 5: of this object. Keep in mind, at this time the

497
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 5: British had no control over Palestine. It was still under

498
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: the Ottoman Empire, but in this letter Britain was essentially

499
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 5: preparing to take it over in the very near future.

500
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 5: I also want to include that at this time Jewish

501
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 5: people only made up six percent of the Palestinian population.

502
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 5: I'm going to play audio from a video posted by

503
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 5: former guests of the show The Amazing Sim Kern, where

504
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 5: they break down the last part of the declaration. Sim

505
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 5: is referencing in this audio Rashid Khalidi's book The one

506
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 5: Hundred Years War on Palestine, A History of Settler Colonialism

507
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 5: and Resistance nineteen seventeen to twenty seventeen.

508
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 6: It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which

509
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 6: may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non

510
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 6: Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights in political status

511
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 6: enjoyed by Jews in any other country. That last bit

512
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 6: sounds like, all right, well, he's saying we were not

513
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 6: going to tread on the civil and religious rights of Palestinians.

514
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 7: That's pretty good, right.

515
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 6: But in The One hundred Years War on Palestine, the

516
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 6: book by Rashid Khalidi that I am encouraging you all

517
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 6: to keep reading along with me this week, Khalidi does

518
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 6: a great job breaking down the rhetoric of this declaration

519
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 6: and why it was actually a declaration of war upon

520
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 6: the Palestinian people. Yes, they were promised civil and religious rights,

521
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 6: but they were not granted political or national rights, and

522
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 6: this meant that for the next fifteen years, as people

523
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 6: in Palestine tried to resist the establishment of a zion

524
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 6: Est state within their country, the takeover of all their

525
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 6: land by Zionist groups, they were unable to find any

526
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 6: audience in the halls of power because Balfour had declared

527
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 6: them to not have these rights and to not really

528
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 6: be people. They weren't even referred to as Arabs or

529
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 6: Palestinians in the Declaration, just non Jewish. Ninety four percent

530
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 6: of the people of this land had just been written

531
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 6: out of existence as far as the Western powers were concerned.

532
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 6: Kalidi describes how between nineteen seventeen and nineteen thirty six,

533
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 6: almost all of the organized Palestinian resistance to Zionism was

534
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 6: peaceful and legalistic. They would form political committees, but the

535
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 6: British said, you're not allowed to have political activity and

536
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 6: shut those down harshly. They would send delegations to the

537
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 6: League of Nations, to other countries to try to get

538
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 6: to support to Britain, but they would not even be

539
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 6: seen in the halls of power. They would not even

540
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 6: get audiences because they were told basically, as Palestinians, you

541
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 6: have no rights allowed to have nationalistic interests.

542
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 5: As I mentioned, the declaration was included in the terms

543
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 5: of the British Mandate for Palestine. The so called mandate

544
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 5: system set up by the Allied powers was a thinly

545
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 5: veiled form of colonialism and occupation. In retrospective course, it's

546
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 5: not a very thin veil at all. The mandate system

547
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 5: transferred rule from the territories that were previously controlled by

548
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 5: the powers defeated in the war Germany, Austria, Hungary, the

549
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 5: Ottoman Empire in Bulgaria to those who were victorious in

550
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 5: the war. The declared aim of the mandate system was

551
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 5: to allow the winners of the war to administer the

552
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 5: newly emerging states until they could become independent. The case

553
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 5: of Palestine, however, was unique. Unlike the rest of the

554
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 5: post war mandates. The main goal of the British mandate

555
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 5: there was to create the conditions for the establishment of

556
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 5: a Jewish national home, even though Jews, again at the time,

557
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 5: constituted only six percent of the population. Upon the start

558
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 5: of the mandate, the British began to facilitate immigration of

559
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 5: European Jews to Palestine, between nineteen twenty two and nineteen

560
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 5: thirty five, the Jewish population rose to nearly twenty seven

561
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 5: percent of the total population. And even though the Balfour

562
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 5: Declaration included the caveat that quote nothing shall be done

563
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 5: which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the

564
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 5: existing non Jewish communities in Palestine, the British Mandate was

565
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 5: set up in a way to equip Jews with the

566
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 5: tools to establish self rule at the expense of the

567
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 5: Palestinian Arabs. Understandably enough, the document is seen as controversial

568
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 5: for several reasons. First, it was, in the words of

569
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 5: the late Palestine American academic Edward Zaid, quote made by

570
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 5: European power about a non European territory in a flat

571
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 5: disregard of both the presence and wishes of the native

572
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 5: majority resident in that territory. In essence, the Balfour Declaration

573
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 5: promised Jews a land where the natives made up more

574
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 5: than ninety percent of the populace. Second, the declaration was

575
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 5: one of three conflicting wartime promises made by the British.

576
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 5: Surprise surprise, when the declaration was released, Britain had already

577
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 5: promised the Arab's independence from the Ottoman Empire in the

578
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 5: nineteen fifteen Hussein McMahon Correspondents. However, the British also promised

579
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 5: the French and a separate treaty known as the nineteen

580
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 5: sixteen psychs Pico Agreement, that the majority of Palestine would

581
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 5: be under international administration, while the rest of the region

582
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 5: would be split between the two colonial powers after the war.

583
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 5: This Hussain McMahon correspondence was a series of letters exchanged

584
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 5: in nineteen fifteen to nineteen sixteen during World War One

585
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 5: between Hussain and Beinnati, who was the Emir of Mecca,

586
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 5: and Sir Henry McMahon, the British High Commissioner in Egypt.

587
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 5: In general terms, the correspondence effectively traded British support of

588
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: an independent Arab state for the Arab assistance in opposing

589
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 5: the Ottoman Empire. However, the correspondence was later contradicted by

590
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 5: two things, the incompatible terms of the sex Peco Agreement,

591
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 5: which was secretly concluded between Britain and France in May

592
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 5: nineteen sixteen, and Britain's Balfour Declaration in nineteen seventeen. The declaration, however,

593
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 5: meant that Palestine would come under British occupation, that the

594
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 5: Palestinian Arabs who lived there would not gain independence. Third,

595
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 5: the declaration introduced a notion that was reportedly unprecedented in

596
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 5: international law, that of a quote national home. The use

597
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 5: of the vague term national home for the Jewish people

598
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 5: as opposed to state left the meaning open to interpretation.

599
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 5: Earlier drafts of the document used the phrase quote the

600
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 5: reconstitution of Palestine as a Jewish state, but that was

601
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 5: later changed. However, in a meeting with Zionist leader Heim

602
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 5: Wizman in nineteen twenty two, Arthur Balfour and then Prime

603
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 5: Minister David Lloyd George reportedly said that the Balfour Declaration

604
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 5: was quote always meant to be an eventual Jewish state. Okay,

605
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 5: let's take our first break here because.

606
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 4: I have to.

607
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 5: Okay, bye, and we're back. So we're talking about the

608
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 5: Balfour Declaration. But who exactly is Arthur Balfour. Sim Kern

609
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 5: in that same video that I played earlier, explains that

610
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 5: he can be seen as the person most responsible for

611
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 5: violence in the Middle East for the past century because

612
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 5: when he wrote his declaration in nineteen seventeen, he effectively

613
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 5: wrote Palestinian rights out of existence and surprising no one.

614
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 5: Arthur Balfour was a terrible guy. He was a white supremacist,

615
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 5: a racist, and an anti Semite. The Balfour Declaration is

616
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 5: a statement that can fit into two tweets. As we mentioned,

617
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 5: Arthur Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary at the time, announced

618
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 5: that the British government would support establishing a national home

619
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 5: for the Jewish people in Palestine, and more than one

620
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 5: hundred years later, those written words continue to define the

621
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 5: dynamic between Israelis and Palestinians. In twenty seventeen, marking one

622
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 5: hundred years the declaration, Little Bitch Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

623
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 5: and Yahoo went to London to commemorate the centennial occasion

624
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 5: with Theresa May. I hope you know by now, though,

625
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 5: that the declaration is really nothing worth celebrating, And though

626
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 5: he may be most known for aiding the Zionist cause

627
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventeen, it's crucial to remember that Arthur Balfour

628
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 5: was a white supremacist. He made that much clear in

629
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 5: his own words. In nineteen o six, the British House

630
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 5: of Commons was engaged in a debate about the Native

631
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 5: blacks in South Africa. Nearly all the members of Parliament

632
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 5: agreed that the disenfranchisement of the blacks was evil, but

633
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 5: not Balfour, who almost alone argued against it. When talking

634
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 5: about the black people in South Africa, he said, we

635
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 5: have to face the facts. Men are not born equal

636
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 5: the white in the black races are not born with

637
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 5: equal capacities. They are born with different capacities which education

638
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 5: cannot and will not change. But Balfour's troubling views were

639
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 5: not limited to Africa. In fact, despite his now iconic

640
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 5: support for Zionism that celebrated by Zionists everywhere, he was

641
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 5: not exactly a friend to the Jews. In the late

642
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 5: nineteenth century, Pagram's targeting Jews in the Pale of Settlement

643
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 5: had led to waves of Jewish flight westward to England

644
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 5: and the United States. Little insert here that the Pale

645
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 5: of Settlement was a western region of the Russian Empire

646
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 5: with varying borders that existed from seventeen ninety one to

647
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 5: nineteen seventeen, in which permanent residency by Jews was allowed,

648
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 5: and beyond which Jewish residency permanent or temporary was mostly forbidden.

649
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 5: So created by imperial decree. The Jewish pale of Settlement

650
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 5: was that part of the Russian Empire within which Russia's

651
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 5: Jewish population was required to live and work for more

652
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 5: than one hundred thirty years between the late eighteenth and

653
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 5: the early twentieth century. Although it was initially intended to

654
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 5: forestall commerce between Jews and the general population of Russia,

655
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 5: the restrictions imposed by the pale fostered the development of

656
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 5: a distinctive religious and ethnic culture in an area covering

657
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 5: roughly three hundred eighty six thousand square miles or one

658
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 5: million square kilometers between the Baltic and Black Seas. The

659
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 5: word pale as used in this sense, comes from the

660
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 5: Latin polus or stake, one that might be used to

661
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 5: indicate a boundary. A pale is thus a district separated

662
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 5: from the surrounding country. It may be defined by physical boundaries,

663
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 5: or it may be distinguished by a different administrative or

664
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 5: legal system. The Jewish pale off Settlement was both a

665
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 5: defined area within the Russian Empire and a legal entity

666
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 5: regulated by laws that did not apply to the Russian

667
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 5: Empire as a whole. So back to the main narrative,

668
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 5: the targeting of Jews in the pale of settlement led

669
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 5: to immigration of many Jews to the West, to England

670
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 5: and the US. This influx of refugees led to an

671
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 5: increase in British anti immigrant racism and outright anti Semitism,

672
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 5: themes not unfamiliar to US today. Support for political action

673
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 5: against immigrants grew as the English public demanded immigration control

674
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 5: to keep certain immigrants, particularly Jews, out of the country.

675
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 5: So this scared and xenophobic public found a sympathetic ear

676
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 5: in Balfour. In nineteen oh five, while serving as Prime Minister,

677
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 5: Balfour presided over the passage of the Aliens Act. This

678
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 5: legislation put the first restrictions on immigration into Great Britain,

679
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 5: and it was primarily aimed at restricting Jewish immigration. According

680
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 5: to historians, Balfour had personally delivered passionate speeches about the

681
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 5: imperative to restrict the waves of Jews fleeing the Russian

682
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 5: Empire from entering Britain. So maybe it's not as astonishing

683
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 5: as you would think that Balfour, whose support of the

684
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 5: Zionist cause has made him a hero among Zionists, would

685
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 5: have implemented anti Jewish laws. But the truth is his

686
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 5: support of Zionism stemmed from the exis exact same source

687
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 5: as his desire to limit Jewish immigration to Britain. Both

688
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 5: of these things can be traced back to his white

689
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 5: supremacist beliefs. Balfour lived in an area of stirring nationalism

690
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 5: highly defined by ethno religious identity. Because of these sentiments.

691
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 5: The early twentieth century was a time when seemingly liberal

692
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 5: Western nations struggled with the challenge of incorporating Jewish citizens.

693
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 5: Balfour wanted to keep the UK as a white Christian

694
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 5: ethno state. What the Zionists provided Balfour with was a

695
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 5: solution to the challenges Jewish citizens posed to his ethno

696
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 5: nationalist vision, a solution that didn't force him to reckon

697
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 5: with them. Instead of insisting that societies except all citizens

698
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 5: as equals, regardless of racial or religious background, the Zionist's

699
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 5: movement offered a different answer, separation. Balfour saw in Zionism

700
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 5: not just a blessing for Jews, but for the West

701
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 5: as well. In nineteen nineteen, he wrote the introduction to

702
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 5: Nahem Sokolo's History of Zionism. In this introduction, Balfour wrote

703
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 5: that the Zionist movement would quote mitigate the age long

704
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 5: miseries created for Western civilization by the presence in its

705
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 5: midst of a body which it too long regarded as

706
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 5: alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable

707
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 5: to expel or to absorb. By both giving Jews a

708
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 5: place to go and a place to leave, Zionism seemingly

709
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 5: solved two problems at once in Balfour's mind. In other words,

710
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 5: his support of Zionism was motivated by his desire to

711
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 5: protect Britain from the negative effects or the miseries, as

712
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 5: he said, of having Jews in its population. Rather than

713
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 5: protecting the rights of one of its minorities, Britain could

714
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 5: simply export them, or at least not import anymore. This

715
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 5: is one of the many reasons Zionism itself is anti Semitic.

716
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 5: We can even fast forward to now and see how

717
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 5: Zionists are telling telling anti Zionist Jewish people that they're

718
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 5: no longer Jewish for supporting Palestine. That belief and statement

719
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 5: in itself is extremely anti Semitic. Criticizing Israel on the

720
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 5: Israeli government, however, is not but putting that aside. We

721
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 5: can see that from the very beginning, even in its origin,

722
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 5: Zionists associated and allied themselves with the worst kinds of people,

723
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 5: like people who believed that Jewish people are quote an

724
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 5: alien and hostile body among them. Needless to say, Balfour's

725
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 5: view of Zionism is steeped in the same kind of

726
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 5: white supremacy as Balfour's view of South Africa's blacks, But

727
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 5: his support of the Zionist dream had another problem. Rather

728
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 5: than solving the problem of how to handle a minority

729
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 5: living in a white majority country, the Balfour Declaration just

730
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 5: shifted the same problem into a different geography. The tension

731
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 5: between ethno nationalism and equality is definitely and equally present

732
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 5: today between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, and see

733
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 5: where the Israeli state rules over the fate of millions

734
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 5: of Palestinians who either have no right to vote, are

735
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 5: treated as second class citizens, or our refugees denied repatriation.

736
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 5: Today it is Israel that views Palestinians as demographic threats

737
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 5: and sees the quote presence in its midst of a

738
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 5: body which is too long regarded as alien and even hostile,

739
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 5: by which it was equally unable to expel or to

740
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 5: absorb let's take our second break here again because I

741
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 5: have to so see you later and we are back.

742
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 5: So that Balfour's legacy of supremacy persists as much as

743
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 5: British support for Israel does is no accident. We have

744
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 5: arrived at this point today because the white supremacist attitudes

745
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 5: of Balfour informed policy lending imperial right to a project

746
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 5: in pursuit of national self determination for Jews by trampling

747
00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 5: on the rights of native non Jews. Remarkably, by Telfour

748
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 5: was unabashedly aware of the hypocrisy in his stance. In

749
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 5: nineteen nineteen, he wrote a letter that said this to

750
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 5: the British Prime Minister. The weak point of our position,

751
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 5: of course, is that in the case of Palestine, we

752
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 5: deliberately and rightly declined to accept the principle of self determination.

753
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 5: We do not propose even to go through the form

754
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 5: of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country,

755
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 5: the seven hundred thousand Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.

756
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 5: Those are his words and a letter that he wrote

757
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 5: to the British Prime Minister. So there's no misconstruing that

758
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 5: there those seven hundred thousand Arabs, of course, made up

759
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 5: approximately ninety percent of the population of Palestine. Again bears

760
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 5: repeating that Jewish people, before this declaration was implemented, made

761
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 5: up only six percent of the population, and therein lies

762
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 5: the fundamental problem that continues through this day, more than

763
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 5: one hundred years later. Palestinians are denied the right to

764
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 5: have rights because from the outset their views, their human

765
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 5: rights and by extension, their very humanity, were consistently seen

766
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 5: as inferior to those of others. That was clear in

767
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 5: Balfour's perspective and the British Mandate's policy, and it persists

768
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 5: in one form or another in many, if not most,

769
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 5: of the policies of the Zionist State of Israel through

770
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 5: this day. In modern times, as much as in nineteen seventeen,

771
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 5: the battle between ethno nationalism and equality has risen to

772
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 5: the foreground. We saw this in Donald Trump's rise in

773
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 5: America and in Theresa Mays brexited Britain. Rather than resolving

774
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 5: this tension, Balfour's support for Zionism merely exported it to Palestine,

775
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 5: and resisting the legacy of Balfour's racism is absolutely necessary.

776
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 5: If there is ever to be peace in Palestine and beyond.

777
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 5: A little bit more history here about why this declaration

778
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 5: was issued. The question of why has been subject of

779
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 5: debate for historians for decades, with historians using different sources

780
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 5: to suggest various explanations. Some argue that many in the

781
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 5: British government at the time were Zionists themselves. Others say

782
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 5: the declaration was issued out of an anti Semitic reasoning

783
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 5: that giving Palestine to the Jews would be a solution

784
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 5: to the quote unquote Jewish problem. In mainstream academia, however,

785
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 5: there are a set of reasons over which there is

786
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 5: a general consensus. One, control over Palestine was a strategic

787
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 5: imperial interest to keep Egypt and the Suez Canal within

788
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 5: Britain's sphere of influence. Two, Britain had to side with

789
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 5: Zionists to rally support among the Jews in the United

790
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 5: States and Russia, hoping they could encourage their governments to

791
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 5: stay in the war until victory. Three, there was intense

792
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 5: Zionist lobbying and strong connections between the Zionist community in

793
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 5: Britain and the British government, as well as some of

794
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 5: the officials in the government being Zionists themselves, for Jews

795
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 5: were being persecuted in Europe and the British government was

796
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 5: sympathetic to their suffering. I think that last point is

797
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 5: usually used as a validation to why Israel exists today,

798
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 5: but feeling sorry for a people and giving them someone

799
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 5: else's land is really not a solution in my opinion.

800
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,959
Speaker 5: Of course, the Balfour Declaration was also not received well

801
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 5: by Palestinians and Arabs. In nineteen nineteen, then US President

802
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 5: Woodrow Wilson appointed a commission to look into public opinion

803
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 5: on the mandatory system in Syria and Palestine. The investigation

804
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 5: was known as the King Krane Commission. It found that

805
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 5: the majority of Palestinians expressed a strong opposition to Zionism,

806
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 5: leading the conductors of the commission to advise a modification

807
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 5: of the mandate's goal. The late Anni Ebba Adhadi, a

808
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 5: Palestinian political figure, condemned the Balfour Declaration in his memoirs,

809
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 5: saying it was made by an English foreigner who had

810
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 5: no claim to Palestine, to a foreign Jew who had

811
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 5: no right to it. However, it's very important to mention

812
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 5: here that the other vital important source for insight into

813
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 5: Palestine opinion on the declaration at the time. AKA the

814
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 5: press was closed down by the Ottomans at the start

815
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 5: of the war in nineteen fourteen and only began to

816
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 5: reappear in nineteen nineteen, but it was under British military

817
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 5: censorship in November nineteen nineteen when the Alisti La Da Laivi,

818
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 5: the Arab independence newspaper based in Damascus, was reopened. One

819
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 5: article had a response to a public speech given by

820
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 5: Herbert Samuel, a Jewish Cabinet minister in London, on the

821
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 5: second anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. The article said quote

822
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 5: our country is Arab, Palestine is Arab, and Palestine must

823
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 5: remain Arab. In nineteen twenty, the Third Palestine Congress and

824
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 5: Haifa decried the British government's plans to support the Zionist

825
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 5: project and rejected the declaration as a violation of international

826
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 5: law and the rights of the indigenous population. I'm gonna

827
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 5: pull audio from Sim's video here again. They kind of

828
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 5: summarize in a really good way what happened in the

829
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:10,240
Speaker 5: years leading up to the Nukaba.

830
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 6: So here is Sim and even still until nineteen thirty six,

831
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 6: Palestinians are trying to peacefully, legalistically resist decolonization, which, unfortunately

832
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 6: history teaches us doesn't work that great usually. However, inspired

833
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 6: by the examples of Iraq and Syria, which had managed

834
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 6: to overthrow their colonizers starting with a general strike, Palestinians

835
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 6: organize a strike in nineteen thirty six. Again, this starts

836
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 6: out as just a peaceful strike, but it is brutally

837
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 6: repressed by the British overlords.

838
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 7: We're like, no, you're not.

839
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 6: Allowed to strike. You are our captive wage slavery labor

840
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 6: for us.

841
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 7: You have to go do your work.

842
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 6: Khaleedi shows how Britain was also very strategically sowing internal

843
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 6: divisions within the Palestinian leadership, turning people certain to their

844
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 6: side by bribing them to work again one another. And

845
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 6: so the strike fell apart in nineteen thirty six. But

846
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 6: then only then in nineteen thirty seven.

847
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 7: Did an armed revolt breakout.

848
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 6: Much is made by Zionists about this Arab revolt and

849
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 6: how this was justification for the Knukba, which would ultimately

850
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 6: kill fifteen thousand Palestinians and displace hundreds of thousands more.

851
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 6: But this was no religious massacre, and that's reflected in

852
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 6: the casualties. Yes, several hundred Jews died during the revolt,

853
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 6: but it took one hundred thousand British troops to suppress

854
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 6: the revolt, and the fighting was mostly between the Arabs

855
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 6: and the British. And it's estimated that between fourteen and

856
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 6: seventeen percent of the adult male Arab population was killed.

857
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 7: Wounded, imprisoned, or exiled.

858
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 6: So the population of Palestinians was absolutely devastated by this

859
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 6: revolt by the end of it. What struck me a

860
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 6: lot reading the conclusion of this chapter was, you know,

861
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 6: the Western media, which is so Islamophobic, portrays Palestinians as

862
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 6: like inherently violent and bloodthirsty and anti Semitic, but that

863
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 6: just isn't reflected in this history at all. In fact,

864
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 6: as Khaldi mentioned, several scholars argue that, you know, the

865
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 6: Palestinians really should have organized an armed revolt earlier. It

866
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 6: was too late by the time they did, but they

867
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 6: had spent fifteen years since the Balfour Declaration trying peacefully

868
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 6: and legalistically to earn their rights, and that was ultimately

869
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 6: a dead end. But Palestinians really clearly did not want

870
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 6: to fight a war. It wasn't until they'd exhausted every

871
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 6: single other option to them. They tried legal routes, they

872
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 6: tried organizing, they tried a strike. You know, they had

873
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 6: done everything they could. And this was a population that

874
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 6: had been stripped of huge amounts of its land, that

875
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 6: was destitute, that was impoverished, that was starving, that was

876
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 6: shut out from any economic opportunity in the land they

877
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 6: had lived on for millennia. They were farmers. They didn't

878
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 6: want to wage a war. They wanted to make olive oil.

879
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 6: But because this guy didn't want Jews moving to the UK,

880
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 6: they didn't get to have their country anymore.

881
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 5: Even prior to the Balfour Declaration in the British Mandate,

882
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 5: Pan Arab newspapers warned against the motives of the Zionist

883
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 5: movement and its potential outcomes displacing Palestinians from their land.

884
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 5: Khalil Sakakini, a jerusalemit writer and teacher, described Palestine in

885
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,879
Speaker 5: the immediate aftermath of the war as follows. A nation

886
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 5: which has long been in the depths of sleep, only

887
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 5: wakes if it is rudely shaken by events, only arises

888
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,959
Speaker 5: little by little. This was the situation of Palestine, which

889
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 5: for many centuries has been in the deepest sleep until

890
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 5: it was shaken by the Great War, shocked by the

891
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 5: Zionist movement and violated by the illegal policy of the British,

892
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 5: and awoke little by little. And while Britain is generally

893
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 5: and understandably held responsible for the Balfour Declaration, it is

894
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 5: important to note that the statement would not have been

895
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 5: made without prior approval from the other Allied powers. During

896
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 5: World War One, in a war cabinet meeting on September

897
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 5: nineteen seventeen, British ministers decided that the quote views of

898
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 5: President Wilson should be obtained before any declaration was made,

899
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 5: and indeed, according to the Cabinet's minutes on October fourth,

900
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 5: the ministers recalled Arthur Balfour, confirming that Wilson was quote

901
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 5: extremely favorable to the movement. France, surprise, surprise, maybe to

902
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 5: no one, was also involved and announced its support prior

903
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 5: to the issuing of the Balfour Declaration. A May nineteen

904
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 5: seventeen letter from Jules Cambon, a French diplomat, to Nahem Sokolo,

905
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 5: the Polish Zionist, expressed the sympathetic views of the French

906
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 5: government towards a quote Jewish colonization in Palestine. This letter,

907
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 5: again the precursor to the Balfour Declaration, says it would

908
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 5: be a deed of justice and of reparation to assist,

909
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 5: by the protection of the Allied powers in the renaissance

910
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 5: of the Jewish nationality in that land from which the

911
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 5: people of Israel were exiled so many centuries ago. The

912
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 5: Balfour Declaration again is widely seen as the precursor to

913
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 5: the nineteen forty eight Palestinian Nekba, when Zionist armed groups

914
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 5: who were trained by the British forcibly expelled more than

915
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 5: seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians from their homeland, and

916
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 5: they massacred fifteen thousand Palestinians. Despite some opposition within the

917
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 5: war cabinet predicting such an outcome was probable, the British

918
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 5: government still chose to issue the declaration, and there is

919
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 5: no doubt that the British mandate created the conditions for

920
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,959
Speaker 5: the Jewish minority to gain superiority in Palestine and build

921
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 5: a state for themselves at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs.

922
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 5: When the British decided to terminate their mandate in nineteen

923
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 5: forty seven and transfer the question of Palestine to the

924
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 5: United Nations. The Jews already had an army that was

925
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 5: formed out of the armed paramilitary groups trained and created

926
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 5: to fight side by side with the British in World

927
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 5: War II. More importantly, the British allowed the Jews to

928
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 5: establish self governing institutions such as the Jewish Agency, to

929
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 5: prepare themselves for a state when it came to it,

930
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: while the Palestinians were forbidden from doing so, paving the

931
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 5: way for the nineteen forty eight ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

932
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 5: We're going to end the episode with one more audio

933
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 5: clip from Sim's video. I just think it really describes

934
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 5: and summarizes why exactly Arthur Balfour is an extremely evil person.

935
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 6: So here is Sim and the violence that has sprung

936
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 6: from the creation of Israel goes so much further beyond

937
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 6: its borders. I mean, the whole history of the Middle

938
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 6: East and a Western imperial conquest in the Middle East

939
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 6: hinges on Israel being there, all of US imperialism, the

940
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 6: wars in Iraq and in Afghanistan, I mean, all of

941
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 6: that would have been impossible without the existence of Israel.

942
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 6: So add Arthur Balfour to your list of the greatest

943
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 6: war criminals of all time.

944
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 5: It truly feels silly to be talking about anything else

945
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 5: at this time. So I do want to mention here

946
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 5: that at the time of this recording, there are over

947
00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 5: eleven thousand Palestinians who have been by the settler colony

948
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 5: of Israel in their genocide that is currently happening. Nearly

949
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 5: five thousand children are gone, have been slaughtered. Every time

950
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 5: I open my phone, I see the worst thing I've

951
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 5: ever seen in my life. And there are images that

952
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 5: we're seeing of. I mean, you've seen them, children under

953
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 5: the rubble, crying for help, parents losing their babies, and

954
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 5: it doesn't make sense for me to describe the images.

955
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 5: But my point is we have never seen a genocide

956
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 5: take place right before our eyes. All the proof is there.

957
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 5: Israeli leaders have been very clear in their intention for genocide.

958
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 5: Just for example, Israeli Cabinet member Avidijkter. I don't care

959
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 5: if I said his name wrong, but he said that

960
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 5: they are rolling out Nekba twenty twenty three. That's one

961
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 5: example of extremely genocidal language as being used by not

962
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 5: just Israel but also American politicians as well. There are

963
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 5: photos side by side of the nineteen forty eight Nekba

964
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 5: to what's happening right now. It's happening again. The mass

965
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 5: expulsion of Palestinians is happening right before our eyes. There

966
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 5: are Palestinians who have experienced the Nekaba in nineteen forty

967
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 5: eight who are experiencing it again, being displaced so many

968
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 5: times in their own country, and right now over a

969
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 5: million Palestinians have been displaced. We are also just being

970
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 5: inundated with the most bizarre propaganda from the IOF. I've

971
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 5: decided to call them the IOF from now on instead

972
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 5: of the IDF because they are not defending anything. They

973
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 5: are the Israeli offensive forces, not defensive. So just a

974
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 5: disclaimer there over my choice of words. But it's strange

975
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,959
Speaker 5: they post photos of Arabic text saying it's something else.

976
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 5: Just recently I saw that they posted a calendar that

977
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 5: they found in a house that they say are a

978
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 5: list of Hamas hostages. It's literally just a calendar with

979
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 5: the words of the week written in Arabic. And that

980
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 5: is just one example of many. And I feel like

981
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 5: if I keep talking about this that will never stop.

982
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 5: But my point in bringing us back to modern times

983
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 5: is that this all started with a decision made by

984
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 5: men who had no business making a decision. Arthur Balfour

985
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 5: had no fucking business handing over a piece of land

986
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 5: that had nothing to do with him. It was never

987
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 5: his place. And what galaxy does that make sense to anybody?

988
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 5: Zionism and Jewishness and Judaism are not equivalent, and I

989
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 5: hope at this point in time people are realizing that.

990
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 5: I hope that this episode sheds some light on how

991
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 5: the roots of Zionism itself are rooted in anti Semitism.

992
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 5: It's nobody's place to decide to play god and just

993
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 5: pretend people don't exist in a place that you want.

994
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 5: It doesn't work like that. That's not human. So I

995
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 5: think it's important to remember history like this because something

996
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 5: like this does not happen overnight. It did not happen

997
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 5: or start on October seventh. This is something that has

998
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 5: been decades in the making, and it all started with

999
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 5: one stupid man making a decision with other stupid men

1000
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 5: that have way too much power that resulted in the suffering,

1001
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 5: the continued suffering of an entire people, the dehumanization of

1002
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 5: an entire people, We're seeing it play out right now.

1003
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 5: So I think as you learn about history, as to

1004
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 5: learn about things like this that maybe seem like they

1005
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 5: happen so far away, they really didn't. We are experiencing

1006
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 5: the ripples of those decisions. And that's the episode for today.

1007
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 5: I hope it was informative, and I hope the genocide

1008
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 5: of the Palestinian people comes to an end. So in

1009
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 5: the meantime, Free Palestine, No no dot Com.

1010
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 4: In the week since the end of October, the confie

1011
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 4: landscape in the AMMA has significantly changed. The Hunter and

1012
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 4: its alignment issues have taken unprecedented losses, and the PDF,

1013
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 4: as well as several ethnic revolutionary organizations, have swept across

1014
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 4: the country, seizing bases, weapons, tanks, and even towns and cities.

1015
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 4: As the offensive was ongoing, I spoke to Sire montine

1016
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 4: a leader in the madelid PDF, and Billy Ford of

1017
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 4: the United States Institute for Peace. What follows is my

1018
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 4: conversation with Billy and some insights on a situation on

1019
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 4: the ground with the Madelai PDF. You'll hear more from

1020
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 4: Sire Montiney in another episode that we're working on, but

1021
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 4: I wanted you to hear his personal on the ground

1022
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 4: perspective now as well. First, I let nine nine, the

1023
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 4: translator from Mandel a PDF, introduce our guest.

1024
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, Layes, he is the leader of the Commanding

1025
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 8: and Cohesion team, and you can also say that he

1026
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 8: the leader of our organization.

1027
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 4: To start with, I asked Billy to explain for you

1028
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 4: the developments in the conflict in the last few weeks.

1029
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 9: I mean, it's really been just the past what is

1030
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 9: it since the twenty seventh, so thirteen days kind of

1031
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 9: a level change in the conflict trajectory, Whereas I'd say,

1032
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 9: I mean, you got coup February first, twenty twenty one,

1033
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 9: major military operate resistance operations began September seventh, twenty twenty one,

1034
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 9: and frankly since then it's been more or less incremental change.

1035
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 9: You can, I wouldn't characterize it as a stalemate as

1036
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 9: many have, but there's there's essentially been, you know, small

1037
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 9: pockets of progress where the resistance is capturing territory, but

1038
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 9: all almost exclusively rural areas of the country. And then

1039
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 9: things changed radically on October twenty seventh, when whereas Before

1040
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 9: the twenty seventh, you had a range of armed stakeholders

1041
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 9: involved in the conflicts, some under the deposed National Unity government,

1042
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 9: as well as what's called the K three C, which

1043
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 9: is four of the biggest ethnic armed organizations. But a lot,

1044
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 9: a lot of the reason why we hadn't seen the

1045
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 9: level change in the military balance of power was because

1046
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 9: of the absence of some of the biggest and most

1047
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 9: powerful armed organizations that had more or less state on

1048
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 9: the sidelines.

1049
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 7: I mean, they were.

1050
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 9: Arming and training resistance forces that were engaged in active combat,

1051
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 9: but they hadn't themselves in a meaningful way.

1052
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 7: But on the twenty seventh that totally changed.

1053
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 9: This alliance called the Brotherhood Alliance that involves three of

1054
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 9: the biggest armed organizations, initiated coordinated attacks in Northern Shan

1055
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 9: State on the border with China, and have since the

1056
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 9: twenty seventh.

1057
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 7: We're talking to.

1058
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 9: You on the tenth here of November, one hundred and

1059
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 9: fifty posts have been taken. Seven towns are now under

1060
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 9: full z distance control, seven others by my counter under

1061
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 9: partial resistance control. And the operation in Northern Shan State

1062
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 9: on the border has effectively spurred resistance operations in other

1063
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 9: parts of the country, and so now you essentially have

1064
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 9: operations in all corners of the country. I mean, you've

1065
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 9: seen PDFs taking towns in sagain along the Indian border.

1066
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 9: You've seen the kN you taking important towns on the

1067
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 9: logistics corridor on the Thai border. Kareni groups have moved

1068
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 9: into Meyse on the Thai border with Kareni State. The

1069
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 9: Chin National Front has initiated attacks in Balatwa and Southern

1070
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 9: Chin State near the Bangladesh India border.

1071
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 10: Yees.

1072
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 9: So it's really just the trajectory of conflict has gone

1073
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 9: from an incremental trajectory where it's like this is a

1074
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 9: slow burn that could last a long time, to a

1075
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 9: we need to start thinking about potentially day after. I mean,

1076
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 9: nothing is a given, and the minamoral military has been

1077
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 9: resilient in the past, but it does feel like this

1078
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 9: is a historic moment in a lot of ways, and

1079
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 9: the military is weakened in a way that we've really

1080
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 9: never seen in the history of the country.

1081
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 4: I asked Montiney to explain a little about how he

1082
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 4: got to a point where his force, who hadn't fought

1083
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 4: it all in twenty twenty one, we're able to fight

1084
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 4: alongside the Eros and deal a serious defeat to the junta.

1085
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 8: So in twenty one March he decided to go for

1086
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 8: the unrevolutions. And then he started reading the books about

1087
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 8: the military and tactics and then warfare things. And then

1088
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 8: he said that he is still learning and reading from

1089
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 8: the books about the military tactics till now. And one

1090
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 8: more thing is we we are having some problems about

1091
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 8: the other reverse Defense Force perdief that they don't have

1092
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 8: the well forming and then they don't follow the code

1093
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 8: of context or something like that. So we organize world

1094
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 8: that we won't become a blood dirsty organization, but just

1095
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 8: to fight for the military pool. And one more thing

1096
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 8: is we are following the two CEOC, which is a

1097
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 8: code of context and then chain of commands before we

1098
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 8: form up as these military organizations.

1099
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 4: A number of the Eros rightconas you won't have heard before,

1100
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 4: and that's because they haven't been part of the conflict before.

1101
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 4: So I asked Billy to explain who the Eros in

1102
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 4: the north were and how and why are they identityfied now?

1103
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 9: Sure, So, the Arakan Army is a Recine ethnic based

1104
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 9: armed organization. They're based on the China border, but for

1105
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 9: those who know MEMMR geography, Rakine State is actually on

1106
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 9: the complete other side of the country. But this like

1107
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:19,440
Speaker 9: many were Like many newer armed organizations, they were essentially

1108
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 9: incubated by some of the longer term armed organizations. In

1109
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 9: this case, the Kachin Independence Army helped for the emergence

1110
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 9: of the Arakan Army, which has really grown in the

1111
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:38,480
Speaker 9: past ten years into one of the strongest armed stakeholders

1112
01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:42,680
Speaker 9: in the country. Before the coup, under the on Sansuchil

1113
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 9: National League for Democracy government, they were in intense fighting

1114
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 9: with the MR military and on Sansuchi strongly supported the

1115
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 9: MEMR military's operations against the AA, and that kind of

1116
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 9: built some bad blood, as you might be might imagine,

1117
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 9: between the AA in the National League for Democracy and

1118
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 9: and that bad blood has made it difficult to build

1119
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 9: alliance across ethnic lines and with those resistant organizations that

1120
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 9: involve n l D folks. But the key point here

1121
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 9: is that the AA is operating in two places were

1122
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 9: kind State and in Northern Shan State on the and

1123
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 9: Kachin State also actually it's the GUY now, but and

1124
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 9: they're an extremely powerful armed organization, highly disciplined, highly effective.

1125
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 7: Well armed.

1126
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 9: The The second group is the Ta'ang National Liberation Army.

1127
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 9: This is a an ethnic based army in northern Shan

1128
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 9: State that also is a relatively a newer armed organization.

1129
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 9: They it's it's a pretty complex military environment in Northern

1130
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 9: Shan State because the t n l A are often

1131
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 9: in tension with other shn ethnic groups that are in

1132
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,719
Speaker 9: Shan State and footing the RCSS or the Shan State

1133
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 9: Army South, which is competing for control in other parts

1134
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 9: of Shan State. We've also seen some tension between the

1135
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 9: t n l A and the s SPP, which is

1136
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 9: another Northern Shan army that's closely aligned with the Wah

1137
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 9: and Chinese. So that's a that's a pretty complex array

1138
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 9: of relationships there. But the TNLA is also an increasingly

1139
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 9: powerful armed organization, one that administer administers territory and has

1140
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 9: also been locked in conflict with the Memory military for

1141
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 9: some time. The last group is the m n d

1142
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 9: a A the MEMR National Democratic Alliance Army UH. This

1143
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 9: is a Ko Kong ethnic based armed organization that for

1144
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 9: a long time controlled territory along the China border. In

1145
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 9: two thousand and nine, Men Online, who is now the

1146
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 9: commit ender in chief and the head of.

1147
01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 7: The sac.

1148
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 9: He essentially was leading commands in north, in the northeast

1149
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 9: and led operations to push the m n d a

1150
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 9: A out of that territory and replace it with a

1151
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 9: border guard force of.

1152
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 7: Another ethnic Ko Kong ethnic army.

1153
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 9: And we can get back to that, but that ethnic

1154
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 9: army became or is a criminal enterprise that's now operating

1155
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 9: massive scam and human trafficking operations with the support of

1156
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,760
Speaker 9: the m R Military. They're commissioned under the MEMR Military.

1157
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 9: But I think a key point here is that there's

1158
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 9: it's very personal with the m n d a A

1159
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:46,719
Speaker 9: and this border guard.

1160
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,440
Speaker 7: Force and and men online.

1161
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,320
Speaker 9: And so this is really the m n d a

1162
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 9: A is an organization that has been pushing for a

1163
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 9: very long time to retake this territory and particularly this

1164
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,839
Speaker 9: city of Lau Kai. And so that that that three

1165
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 9: constitutes the Brotherhood Alliance. There's other stakeholders in this region,

1166
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 9: including the United Waw State Army, which is the largest

1167
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 9: armed organization in Meanmar, or non state armed organization as well,

1168
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 9: which is very closely tied with the Chinese. I mean

1169
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 9: they use Chinese currency, they speak Chinese they fully administer

1170
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 9: their territory and autonomously. And then the other organizations that

1171
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 9: are relevant here is the National Democratic Alliance Army and

1172
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 9: d a A, which is essentially you can think of

1173
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 9: it as a closely tied.

1174
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,600
Speaker 7: With the law and the Chinese.

1175
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 9: And then the Kachin Independence Army, which is a Kachin

1176
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 9: ethnic based armed organization very much founded as a social

1177
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:54,839
Speaker 9: services I mean, it's it's kind of got a different

1178
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 9: identity from some of these other groups. It's very much

1179
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 9: like a revolutionary organization with political intentions. There's kind of

1180
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:06,480
Speaker 9: Christian beliefs that are embedded within the organization.

1181
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 7: So yeah, all to.

1182
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 9: Say, it's a highly complex array of actors with different

1183
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 9: intentions and motivations. But in this particular case, they came

1184
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 9: together to at least the Brotherhood Alliance came together to

1185
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 9: launch this coordinated attack.

1186
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 4: The T'ang National Liberation Army the group who received many

1187
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 4: of the young people of Mandalay who went on to

1188
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,680
Speaker 4: form the Mandalaid PDF. Those young people started out as

1189
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 4: a strikeforce within Mandleay, but there are only weapons on

1190
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 4: Molotov cocktails, and every action they took with the risk

1191
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 4: of their whole families if they were caught by march.

1192
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 4: A few weeks into the revolution, Montenay and others took

1193
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 4: to the mountains with the Tang National Liberation Army to

1194
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:50,559
Speaker 4: learn to fight. Before the revolution, he said he had

1195
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,640
Speaker 4: no experience and he didn't even play fighting video games.

1196
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 4: I asked him how it felt to be joining a

1197
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,799
Speaker 4: group he'd been raised to hate and how he got there.

1198
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 10: If all, we we formed many peria.

1199
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 8: We started as an mst which is a manually special

1200
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:08,880
Speaker 8: task Force.

1201
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 10: It was the first training for our organizations and H.

1202
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:20,440
Speaker 8: At the time we only have a SAM handmade weapons

1203
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:25,760
Speaker 8: like Molotov, but we really don't use like handmade guns.

1204
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,679
Speaker 8: But the after the support of T and L, we

1205
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 8: we got the automatic rifles with the help of our

1206
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:40,320
Speaker 8: lines and UH. At first, when we act as a

1207
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 8: MSTF manally special tax force, we restrict the rooms for

1208
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 8: not attaching to the schools or hospitals or the civilians,

1209
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 8: and then after that we start using the handmade weapons

1210
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 8: like just like Molotov.

1211
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 10: We didn't use any handguns at the.

1212
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 8: Time, but after that we trained UH and we contact

1213
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 8: with the tn L. We have a We now have

1214
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 8: the automotic rifles and then others, uh, missiles or something

1215
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 8: like that.

1216
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 10: Now.

1217
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:19,240
Speaker 8: So when he decided to contact with the T and

1218
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 8: L and the End National what he expected were nothing

1219
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 8: else but some few problems that about the racists because

1220
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 8: of most of the ethnic groups, they most of them

1221
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 8: they hate Bumbis people and they even called the Bummy's army.

1222
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 8: So he was explaining that we will be having a

1223
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 8: racist problem. But when he actually reached to the End region, uh,

1224
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 8: he found out that there is no hatred to the

1225
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 8: Bombish people, and then there was no problem about the

1226
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 8: racist problem.

1227
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,559
Speaker 10: Yeah. He also thought that it's because of the.

1228
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 8: Community condication between the bombies people and the plan racist Uh.

1229
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 8: Because Palan people they provide tea, leaves and the other

1230
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 8: things to eat bambished people and then they make some

1231
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:26,439
Speaker 8: tradings and then some they do some business with barbised people.

1232
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 8: So that there was no problem about that. But the

1233
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 8: only other thing was about the weather. Because of the

1234
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 8: rough weather in the mountains, it's a very different weather

1235
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 8: from the like Manulee region. It's very cool for the

1236
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:52,560
Speaker 8: people from the Manley region because Manley's yeah, and in

1237
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,799
Speaker 8: mountains it's very cold in here. So we stay having

1238
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 8: problems about the weather problem, but now we are getting

1239
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 8: used to it. And he said that he is also

1240
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 8: surprised that TNLA, the a National Libation Army is a

1241
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 8: wealth am military and then they are also following the

1242
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 8: code of conduct and then the following the democracy way,

1243
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 8: and then most of the leaders from the TNLA of

1244
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 8: the liberal ideas and then they also one we work

1245
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 8: on to the young leaders from the Revolution Force US.

1246
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:35,479
Speaker 10: So see, he was surprised about that.

1247
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 4: Billy told me that this same dynamic could occurred all

1248
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 4: over the country. And this is probably a good time

1249
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 4: to remind listeners that we've covered the formation of the

1250
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 4: PDFs and our two previous series about Membar and if

1251
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 4: he hasn't had the time to listen to those, I

1252
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:49,840
Speaker 4: really hope you do because it'll make this one a

1253
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 4: lot more interesting and this one probably won't make much

1254
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 4: sense without it.

1255
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I think this is really a key dynamic.

1256
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,679
Speaker 9: And we can come back to the conversation maybe about

1257
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,879
Speaker 9: day after or the political dimensions of the conflict.

1258
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 11: But there's frankly, before the coup, these sorts of coordinations

1259
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:13,680
Speaker 11: would be uh like incomprehensible.

1260
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 9: I mean, you'd see the Arakan Army, the Kachin Independence Army,

1261
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:23,639
Speaker 9: the T'ang National Liberation Army, all of them have deep

1262
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 9: connections with mostly Bamar ethnic pds, some of whom work

1263
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 9: in coordination with the National Unity Government, some which are

1264
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:39,759
Speaker 9: slightly more independent. But the this is an inter ethnic

1265
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 9: collaboration that's that's very novel and demonstrates a shift and

1266
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 9: inter ethnic and intercommunal dynamics in the country that are

1267
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:56,439
Speaker 9: is very positive in a lot of ways. So yeah,

1268
01:18:56,439 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 9: the t n l A, the has been provided weapons

1269
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 9: and training for PDFs in Mandalay, the k i O,

1270
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 9: the k i A has been providing weapons and training

1271
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 9: and tactical and strategic support to PDFs and sagain, the

1272
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 9: Arakan Army has been maybe more than any group, providing

1273
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 9: tactical UH support and weapons and training to PDFs in Bogo, Arowadi,

1274
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 9: Maguay and now more recently in Segaine, so really the

1275
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 9: the Burman heartland of the country. So yeah, all of

1276
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:35,879
Speaker 9: these ethnic minority based armed organizations are now collaborating, sharing

1277
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 9: resources and knowledge with UH, with with Bamar ethnic PDFs.

1278
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,360
Speaker 9: There's a so that I think the main question here

1279
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 9: is like what does this mean for intercommunal relations, What

1280
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 9: does this mean for the future uh of you know,

1281
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 9: of the country is there? Does this indicate there's potential

1282
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 9: for greater national solidarity in the absence of the MEMR

1283
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 9: militi very fracturing communities and so on. But yeah, it's

1284
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,680
Speaker 9: a radical shift in those relationships.

1285
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:09,679
Speaker 4: But he also shared that as we've heard from every

1286
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 4: single PDF fighter we've talked to, their time alongside the

1287
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 4: eros IS comrades in arms has changed the way they

1288
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 4: see ethnicity in the future of their country.

1289
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 9: And I think this is also manifesting a lot of

1290
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,639
Speaker 9: the research that my organization, the US Institute of Piece

1291
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:26,640
Speaker 9: has been doing at the among the general public. I mean,

1292
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 9: we've done three different studies over the past year to

1293
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,720
Speaker 9: assess intercreminal relations in the post couperiod and to kind

1294
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 9: of see how relations have shifted, because there's a really

1295
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:44,639
Speaker 9: dominant narrative that MEMR is kind of irreconcilably fractured and

1296
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 9: that the communities are loyal to their ethnic identities not

1297
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 9: their national identities and.

1298
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:51,479
Speaker 7: So on, and.

1299
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:55,640
Speaker 9: Frankly, all of our research has has pointed to a

1300
01:20:55,680 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 9: similar trend, which is one of inter ethnic relations are

1301
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:02,719
Speaker 9: considerably better.

1302
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:06,600
Speaker 7: There's a there's greater solidarity.

1303
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 9: There's actually one of the serv the experimental research studies

1304
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:15,559
Speaker 9: that we did found that national identity, as in being

1305
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:20,240
Speaker 9: from MEMMR was more was more important to respondence than

1306
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 9: ethnic identity, which totally cuts against narratives about MEMMAR. And Yeah,

1307
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 9: I mean, I think there's been considerable gains and inter

1308
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 9: ethnic relations, and it's you know, it's hard to determine,

1309
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 9: you know, the causal linkages here, whether you know, the

1310
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 9: improved inter ethnic relations are spurring greater military collaboration and

1311
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 9: collaboration on humanitarian assistants and governance and so on. But

1312
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:51,719
Speaker 9: it does feel like there's a major shift and social

1313
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 9: dynamics in addition to these kind of military shifts that

1314
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 9: are taking place. I mean, I think that the research

1315
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:03,640
Speaker 9: we've done has found there to be sort of extremist

1316
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 9: national perspectives still remain, but that they're they're the likelihood

1317
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 9: of them escalating to violence is reduced, in large part

1318
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:19,719
Speaker 9: because the public's vulnerability to UH incitement or to highly

1319
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:20,960
Speaker 9: devisive political speech.

1320
01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 7: Most of what came.

1321
01:22:22,040 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 9: From Mailmar military run troll farms is is much I mean,

1322
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:30,960
Speaker 9: there's much more resilience to those that that form of

1323
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 9: political violence, So you know, I think there's still a

1324
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 9: lot of work obviously to do to build intercommunal cohesion

1325
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 9: and understanding, but that the likelihood, you know, for example,

1326
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 9: in a post sac world, that you will be you know,

1327
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:54,000
Speaker 9: see mass intercommunal violence, it seems much lower than a

1328
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,680
Speaker 9: lot of people are presuming that it would be that

1329
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 9: the that the actual horizontal relationships across communities are not

1330
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 9: are not as bad as many presume. Actually, one of

1331
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 9: the surveys that we did found that Memar's intercommunal relations

1332
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:13,280
Speaker 9: are no worse than countries with much lower levels of violence,

1333
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 9: which is kind of an indication of the fact that

1334
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 9: it's really vertical dynamics like violent political speech, highly exclusionary

1335
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:27,360
Speaker 9: governance structures that are driving intercommunal violence, and so that

1336
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 9: those on that dimension at least that the person to

1337
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 9: person intercommunal relation or relationships, I think there's a lot

1338
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 9: to be.

1339
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 7: A lot of positive narratives there.

1340
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:42,799
Speaker 4: Talking of positive narratives, here's some positive narratives about products

1341
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 4: and or services. Another aspect of the conflict that has

1342
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 4: played out in Operation ten twenty seven, it's the role

1343
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,320
Speaker 4: of China and the massive crime empires that the junta

1344
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,439
Speaker 4: has facilitated along the country's borders in recent years. I

1345
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:56,160
Speaker 4: asked Billy to explain some of those.

1346
01:23:56,680 --> 01:24:02,639
Speaker 9: So this has become the major political dynamic between China

1347
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 9: and the SAC over the past year.

1348
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 7: Frankly, I mean, it's.

1349
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:10,879
Speaker 9: Essentially what we've seen is the emergence of these massive

1350
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:16,759
Speaker 9: scam operations that use foreign labor that's trafficked into MEMR

1351
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 9: into areas controlled primarily by MEMMR military commissioned border guard forces.

1352
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 9: So these are commissioned under the MEMR military, which is

1353
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 9: a very key point in most cases, and they are

1354
01:24:30,080 --> 01:24:34,759
Speaker 9: running scam operations at a global level that are scamming

1355
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:39,040
Speaker 9: people using a scheme called pig butchering, which is long

1356
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 9: term relationship building.

1357
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:41,440
Speaker 7: And then.

1358
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 9: You're yeah, theft at a large scale. This is like,

1359
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 9: these are sizable losses from individuals. So last year, for example,

1360
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 9: to give you a sense of that scale, China lost

1361
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,160
Speaker 9: twenty billion dollars to these scam operations.

1362
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:57,920
Speaker 7: Twenty billion.

1363
01:24:58,920 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1364
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 9: In the United State it's lost two billion dollars on

1365
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 9: scam operations emerging from Meanmar. I mean, the scale of

1366
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,000
Speaker 9: this is wild. I mean there's more than there's more

1367
01:25:09,040 --> 01:25:13,040
Speaker 9: than one hundred thousand people being held in scam zones

1368
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:17,639
Speaker 9: in Meanmar from forty six different countries. I mean it's

1369
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 9: a it's this is a total global operation because I

1370
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 9: mean this emerged actually before COVID, I mean in sia Hanookville,

1371
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 9: Cambodia and other places where there's you know, rule of

1372
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:31,120
Speaker 9: laws is dubious. They have have the initiated kind of

1373
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:35,679
Speaker 9: casino operations which are illegal in China and really targeting

1374
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 9: Chinese public. And during COVID, when China a lot of

1375
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 9: Chinese nationals were forced back to mainland China, these criminal

1376
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:48,719
Speaker 9: enterprises were short on labor and so they shifted their approach.

1377
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 9: I mean they shifted to trafficking people into their zones

1378
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 9: and then operating out a global scale finding labor from

1379
01:25:57,120 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 9: around the world, you know, using not not low skilled labor.

1380
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 9: I mean this is these are high skilled kind of

1381
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:09,600
Speaker 9: middle class workers seeking employment in the tech industry or

1382
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 9: some other scheme that they you know, eventually they're you know,

1383
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 9: held at gunpoint and forced to scam their co nationals.

1384
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:19,439
Speaker 7: So that's a little bit of background.

1385
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:24,360
Speaker 9: So this is happening in Ko Kong along the Chinese border,

1386
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,280
Speaker 9: also in the Waw territories and in the n d

1387
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 9: A A territories. The largest areas are actually on the

1388
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:35,559
Speaker 9: Thai Burma border with the Kren Border Guard Force and

1389
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 9: affiliated criminal organizations. So essentially, over the past year, the

1390
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 9: Chinese have have noticed not only the financial losses but

1391
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:52,800
Speaker 9: the potential for social instability because as youth unemployment has

1392
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:57,000
Speaker 9: grown in China, you know, these young people are seeking

1393
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 9: new employment opportunities, crossing the border in memr for high

1394
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 9: paying tech jobs and then being held at gunpoints. So

1395
01:27:04,400 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 9: you have you know, mothers on social media saying I

1396
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 9: haven't seen my son in three weeks, and you know

1397
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 9: he's being held in a scam operation. So you know

1398
01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 9: this is this is diletarious at two levels, you know,

1399
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:20,280
Speaker 9: the financial scam losses and the trafficking, and it's all

1400
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:24,599
Speaker 9: being run by border guard forces that are commissioned by

1401
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:28,679
Speaker 9: the Malamar military. And yet you see countries around the world,

1402
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:32,280
Speaker 9: including China, going to the Malamar military and saying please

1403
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 9: shut this down. And of course the Malmur military has

1404
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:39,759
Speaker 9: no intention to shut this down because these these scam

1405
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:43,280
Speaker 9: operations are financing the border guard forces that are their

1406
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 9: key weapon against the resistance. So they need the border

1407
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 9: guard forces and so they will never shut down the

1408
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 9: scam operations, and so what what ensued was essentially earlier

1409
01:27:56,160 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 9: this year. I mean the Chinese came to the Malmour

1410
01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 9: military and said, we will suppor you at every level.

1411
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:03,439
Speaker 9: We will prop you up, provide you weapons, to provide

1412
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 9: you assistance if you can demonstrate the capacity to govern,

1413
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:10,120
Speaker 9: the capacity to provide stability on our border, the capacity

1414
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 9: to provide to allow us to pursue our economic interests.

1415
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 9: And the SAC has completely failed this test. Scam operations

1416
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 9: have exploded China's economic interests. The Chupu Especial Economic Zone

1417
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 9: remains in a impact assessment phase. The Lepidon copper mind

1418
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 9: is non functional, the Mitzo dam is non functional. They're

1419
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 9: just not getting out of the SAC what they wanted.

1420
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 9: And so there was a meaningful shift recently, it appears,

1421
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:48,800
Speaker 9: and I think by all indicators that we can see

1422
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:53,880
Speaker 9: the Chinese greenlit Operation ten twenty seven that they at

1423
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:55,719
Speaker 9: least did not stand in their way.

1424
01:28:57,840 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 7: And you'll see from.

1425
01:28:59,320 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 9: The MND, I mean they really were the leaders of

1426
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 9: the operation that in the statements that they issued about

1427
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:11,160
Speaker 9: the operation itself and when they articulated their objectives, the

1428
01:29:11,200 --> 01:29:14,519
Speaker 9: first objective was to shut down scam operations. I mean,

1429
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:16,720
Speaker 9: you can see that this is they're speaking to a

1430
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:23,600
Speaker 9: Chinese public and the government indicating that we're a responsible,

1431
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:27,960
Speaker 9: good faith actor that will shut down these enterprises that

1432
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 9: are trafficking your citizens and scamming the public.

1433
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 7: Out of billions of dollars.

1434
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:38,920
Speaker 9: So this has become a really dominant dynamic in the

1435
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 9: relationship between the Chinese and the SAC, and it's it

1436
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:49,760
Speaker 9: leads to a really weakened position for the SAC if

1437
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 9: they're not being propped up in the way that they

1438
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 9: have been for so long by the Chinese. So we'll

1439
01:29:54,960 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 9: have to see how this kind of unfolds, but it's

1440
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:01,679
Speaker 9: not looking good for the military.

1441
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 4: When we do see how this unfolds, it'll be people

1442
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:07,320
Speaker 4: like the mandol A PDF who we see leading the

1443
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:11,479
Speaker 4: charge for a new and democratic MEANDMA. We don't exactly

1444
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:14,840
Speaker 4: know what that means, but I asked them, if the

1445
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 4: weapons see is in operation ten twenty seven, we'd allow

1446
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 4: them to arm more fighters and get there faster.

1447
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:24,400
Speaker 8: We are also now recruiting a new recruits, but we

1448
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 8: will we will have to recruit until the genter is gone.

1449
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:35,640
Speaker 8: And we also need more soldiers to form up the

1450
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:41,479
Speaker 8: better army than the gener after we want, even after

1451
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:44,559
Speaker 8: we want, we are going to need some more human

1452
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 8: resources to form up the better army than the Malei Army,

1453
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:55,599
Speaker 8: you know. And for the arms and ammunitions, we got

1454
01:30:55,800 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 8: a lot of arm and ammunitions from the Male like

1455
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:06,840
Speaker 8: but we it's they use a different type of the ammunitions.

1456
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:10,640
Speaker 8: And then because we for example, we use like a

1457
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:15,760
Speaker 8: K types, we have the different So it is not

1458
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 8: very possible to arm the better weapons from the the

1459
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:27,880
Speaker 8: Mali army. We only used some of the weapons, like

1460
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 8: for the artillery or something like that, but that's only

1461
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 8: a few we got from them. What we really need

1462
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:41,760
Speaker 8: is about the better artillery or s A M or

1463
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,120
Speaker 8: something like that for the a strights.

1464
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:49,000
Speaker 10: So yeah, it's not very usedful for us.

1465
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:52,679
Speaker 8: From the anthem ammunition we got from the Male army.

1466
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:57,799
Speaker 8: He said that the main points in the arm revolution

1467
01:31:58,000 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 8: is it's about to catch up important points, not to

1468
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:07,679
Speaker 8: catcha all the CDs or something like that, like to

1469
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 8: catchure the enemy sec quartas or the important places. We

1470
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 8: are going to need more plants, and then he say

1471
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 8: that he's unclear about that.

1472
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:23,760
Speaker 4: I asked Billy what he thought we could expect in

1473
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:27,320
Speaker 4: the new Mianma. I see points out here. Everything every

1474
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 4: Circled analyst has said has been proven wrong by the revolution.

1475
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:35,000
Speaker 4: They've exceeded the wildest expectations of experts in London and Washington, DC.

1476
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 4: And where they go next is really up to them.

1477
01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 9: Good question, and frankly, I don't have a lot of

1478
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:44,240
Speaker 9: information about that. I mean, you've seen pictures over the

1479
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 9: past twelve days of the as the resistance has taken

1480
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:48,759
Speaker 9: one hundred.

1481
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:49,520
Speaker 7: And fifty posts.

1482
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 9: They've definitely captured a lot of heavy munitions and artillery,

1483
01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:59,120
Speaker 9: but yeah, I'm not sure service to air capabilities. I mean,

1484
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:01,920
Speaker 9: I think the the fact that the meanmaur military is

1485
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:07,320
Speaker 9: not able to push the resistance out of urban areas.

1486
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:09,000
Speaker 9: I mean, this is the first time really that the

1487
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 9: resistance moved into urban areas and held them, including into

1488
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:15,720
Speaker 9: guy and I mean Colon has been they're holding it,

1489
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 9: and so I mean that seems to be an indication

1490
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 9: to me that the essay c's capability is weakening. I mean, yeah,

1491
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 9: their their access to foreign currency and to purchase weapons

1492
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:35,879
Speaker 9: is highly constrained now. I mean their primary providers Russia

1493
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:38,600
Speaker 9: and China, you know, ones fighting their own war and

1494
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:40,720
Speaker 9: the other is kind of is a little bit more

1495
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 9: skeptical as to whether they deserve their support. I mean

1496
01:33:44,600 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 9: they just last week the US initiated new sanctions on

1497
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:51,680
Speaker 9: the Meanoma oil and Gas enterprise that provided half a

1498
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:57,040
Speaker 9: billion dollars in revenue for the junta per year. Yeah,

1499
01:33:57,080 --> 01:34:00,240
Speaker 9: that's a major that's a major issue for them accessing

1500
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 9: US dollars which they need to buy weapons. I mean,

1501
01:34:04,040 --> 01:34:08,800
Speaker 9: the Ties can no longer pay the Memoir military and

1502
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 9: USD and the Memor military doesn't want bought. So they're

1503
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 9: literally negotiating barter agreements where they you know, sell gas

1504
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:22,800
Speaker 9: for material goods. But now you have the Resistance controlling

1505
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 9: you know, part of Cocker Rig on the Asia Highway

1506
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 9: into Thailand. I mean, they control the borders, are the

1507
01:34:28,960 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 9: starting to in a way they hadn't before, So even

1508
01:34:31,600 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 9: this sort of bartering or material trade is is less viable.

1509
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 9: So yeah, I mean, I think they're just really asset constrained,

1510
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:44,760
Speaker 9: and it does I mean just the fact that they

1511
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:49,200
Speaker 9: haven't been able to retake these critical logistic coups. I

1512
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:52,920
Speaker 9: mean the border crossings that the Resistance has have controlled

1513
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:57,640
Speaker 9: constitute forty percent of the of the of the overland

1514
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 9: trade between China and Memar. It's you know, it's like

1515
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:04,280
Speaker 9: four billion dollars in value that's being you know, that

1516
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:09,040
Speaker 9: tax loss for the SAC it's considerable. It's considerable losses

1517
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:11,479
Speaker 9: there as well. And how long they can really hold

1518
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 9: out and maintain their air assets is really questionable, particularly

1519
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:21,599
Speaker 9: since they've had to massively diversify their air asset purchase,

1520
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:25,880
Speaker 9: which really makes it more complex to service points. And

1521
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 9: so yeah, I mean, I think I'm not sure that

1522
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:31,920
Speaker 9: the Resistance has much more capacity in service to air

1523
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:36,200
Speaker 9: or air defense, but it does seem like there the

1524
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:39,639
Speaker 9: SACS capacity to inflict atrocities in this way has also

1525
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:40,360
Speaker 9: been constrained.

1526
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:42,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sort of flies in the face of every

1527
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:46,519
Speaker 4: sort of like analytical idea about the assets that you

1528
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 4: need to have in order to be successful in one

1529
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 4: of these Like they they've really proved a lot of

1530
01:35:51,120 --> 01:35:55,320
Speaker 4: people wrong in a really impressive way. I know, you

1531
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 4: have to go, I want to ask one more real

1532
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:04,120
Speaker 4: quick the uh did these towns did the SAC pull

1533
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 4: out of the towns or did they like fight house

1534
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:11,839
Speaker 4: to house or like how did they very across.

1535
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:15,760
Speaker 9: Well, the I mean, the SAC was you know, in

1536
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 9: their barracks themselves.

1537
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 7: I mean, in these.

1538
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 9: Towns it's a national uprising. The public is you know,

1539
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 9: opposed to the presence this is an occupying force, and

1540
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:31,240
Speaker 9: so yeah, it's just moving in and capturing military posts.

1541
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:36,439
Speaker 9: And as one person, resistance fighter indicated, essentially you fire

1542
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:38,679
Speaker 9: your gun in the air and they lay down their weapons,

1543
01:36:38,840 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 9: which is more you know, an indication of of where

1544
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 9: the military stands and the support that these these highly

1545
01:36:46,400 --> 01:36:49,000
Speaker 9: isolated I mean, this is a fractured light infantry force

1546
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:54,720
Speaker 9: that's dispersed a posts all over the country, and you

1547
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:59,559
Speaker 9: know they're resupplying from the Northwest Command in Monuoas to

1548
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:03,040
Speaker 9: towns within thirty minutes drive by helicopter because they can't

1549
01:37:03,479 --> 01:37:07,880
Speaker 9: they can't move, so there's just not logistics support to

1550
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 9: these posts. And so yeah, you've got folks in there

1551
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:16,879
Speaker 9: that just the will to fight is pretty small. Morale

1552
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:21,240
Speaker 9: is shrinking from a very low base, and so I

1553
01:37:21,240 --> 01:37:24,440
Speaker 9: think there was the the general pattern is just resistance

1554
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:27,680
Speaker 9: taking military barracks and posts.

1555
01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:30,840
Speaker 7: Rather than having to go house to house.

1556
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,360
Speaker 9: I mean there's villages in towns where there's these groups

1557
01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:39,960
Speaker 9: called pew Sawtee that are like military aligned militias, but yeah,

1558
01:37:40,120 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 9: that's not really you know, a nationwide fighting force, and

1559
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 9: it's in most cases it really is just the resistance

1560
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 9: capturing posts and pushing out you know, or military personnel.

1561
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 9: And I mean there was a they're also using drones

1562
01:37:57,280 --> 01:37:59,200
Speaker 9: to a high degree of effectiveness.

1563
01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:01,639
Speaker 7: They recently killed a colonel who.

1564
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:06,920
Speaker 9: Is on He was about to be become a brigadier general,

1565
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:09,759
Speaker 9: the highest ranking person to have been killed in battle

1566
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:13,320
Speaker 9: from the menmoral military through a drone strike in northern

1567
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:18,840
Speaker 9: Shun State, I believe for kit Chen, and I think that, yeah,

1568
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:23,760
Speaker 9: the resistance drone capabilities have also increased considerably.

1569
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 7: And this is also an.

1570
01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:28,160
Speaker 9: Area where you see nug collaborating a lot with the ROS.

1571
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 9: So yeah, it's it's it's just yeah, it's embarracked, you know,

1572
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 9: menomour military personnel and they just in many cases just

1573
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:44,760
Speaker 9: lay down their arms because it's just moral so low.

1574
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:46,639
Speaker 9: And the probability of them to be able to fend

1575
01:38:46,640 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 9: off indefinitely is when they have the public against them

1576
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 9: and a resistance movement against them. It's just really a

1577
01:38:53,120 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 9: challenging set of conditions for them.

1578
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,920
Speaker 4: We don't know exactly what the future of MEA. Murray is,

1579
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:00,840
Speaker 4: but it took an interesting turn the last few weeks

1580
01:39:00,880 --> 01:39:04,960
Speaker 4: with the k NDF the Saquareni National Defense Force Fish

1581
01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:08,280
Speaker 4: Battalion issuing a statement of solidarity with the people of

1582
01:39:08,360 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 4: Rejava and the people of Java in the form of

1583
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 4: the YPG and the YPGA, their defense units of men

1584
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:18,160
Speaker 4: and women respectively, recording a response a great risk during

1585
01:39:18,200 --> 01:39:21,680
Speaker 4: the ongoing grown campaign expressing their solidarity and support for

1586
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 4: the revolutionary people of Myanmar, something will cover in greater

1587
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:28,640
Speaker 4: detail on another episode, but it's yet another illustration of

1588
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:31,679
Speaker 4: how the revolutionary people of Mianma have continued to defy

1589
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:36,559
Speaker 4: everyone's expectations about how and where they will go next,

1590
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 4: and how they've managed to dream up a vision from

1591
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:42,240
Speaker 4: more equal and just future, even as they face the

1592
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 4: injustice and inequality of fighting a war the world doesn't

1593
01:39:45,439 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 4: seem to care about. Without a single dollar of international

1594
01:39:48,360 --> 01:39:51,840
Speaker 4: military aid, little support other than strongly worded letters from

1595
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:54,880
Speaker 4: the UN at sporadic intervals have come. To the end

1596
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:58,240
Speaker 4: of the episode, I asked Sya Montine if he had

1597
01:39:58,280 --> 01:39:59,800
Speaker 4: anything else he would like to share with.

1598
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:07,000
Speaker 8: Our Okay, he said that if he is able to talk,

1599
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:12,519
Speaker 8: he wants them to know that we are not the

1600
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:18,160
Speaker 8: white people. We most of them are educated we are

1601
01:40:18,200 --> 01:40:24,200
Speaker 8: only fighting for the democrats. But in some international news

1602
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 8: there will be some news that like pdf revolution forces

1603
01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 8: are killing each other or something like that, but it's

1604
01:40:35,200 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 8: like not fully correct. Maybe some a few will be

1605
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:45,200
Speaker 8: doing that, but most of us are not doing that way.

1606
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:48,760
Speaker 10: It's just a propagona from the male.

1607
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:53,720
Speaker 8: Like you know, we also say that we are no

1608
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:58,880
Speaker 8: more expecting for the help from the other countries. We

1609
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:03,680
Speaker 8: will be fighting our own and then with our spiritatively

1610
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 8: in And he also wanted to say that to the

1611
01:41:08,200 --> 01:41:13,160
Speaker 8: US government or the King of England or the other

1612
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:21,440
Speaker 8: countries authorities that we are not wild ones. We are educated,

1613
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:25,640
Speaker 8: and then we are just fighting to get the democracy

1614
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 8: back to our country. He's a little bit from words,

1615
01:41:29,400 --> 01:41:35,519
Speaker 8: you know, say that if other governments are not helping

1616
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 8: us because they can't get any benefits from helping us,

1617
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,599
Speaker 8: even if they don't want to help us, just don't

1618
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:48,800
Speaker 8: look as like we are the wild ones. We will

1619
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:53,760
Speaker 8: be trying to get the level of the other countries.

1620
01:41:54,320 --> 01:41:56,160
Speaker 10: We will always be trying for that.

1621
01:41:57,400 --> 01:42:01,000
Speaker 8: If you have any chance to speak out in a

1622
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:06,680
Speaker 8: seminar or the workshops or any other things or any meetings,

1623
01:42:07,360 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 8: he wants you to tell the news about killings. Each

1624
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:19,559
Speaker 8: other of our revolution process is just a propagunnas of SAC.

1625
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 8: If there is no more SAC, there will be no

1626
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:30,040
Speaker 8: issues like the anymore. Most of some issues are just

1627
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:34,040
Speaker 8: because of SAC and then they spread in some rumors

1628
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 8: about that and then take news. You know, if you

1629
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 8: guys can can come and visit us, and then you

1630
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:44,559
Speaker 8: can see how we treat people, and then how we

1631
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 8: respect the civilians, and then how we follow put of

1632
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:50,839
Speaker 8: contexts in person.

1633
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:53,479
Speaker 4: Do you want to follow the medal APDF? You can

1634
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 4: search them on Facebook where they post regular updates. We'll

1635
01:42:56,320 --> 01:42:58,720
Speaker 4: include the link in the show notes for you. If

1636
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 4: you want to hear more from Billy, I'll let him

1637
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 4: tell you how.

1638
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:01,760
Speaker 10: Sure.

1639
01:43:01,880 --> 01:43:04,599
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, we put out a paper at USIP

1640
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:09,960
Speaker 9: dot org yesterday on the relationship between the scam operations

1641
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:10,519
Speaker 9: and the.

1642
01:43:12,120 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 7: Conflict dynamics.

1643
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 9: I'm putting one out probably next week on the day

1644
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:21,200
Speaker 9: after quote unquote dynamics, summarizing some of our research.

1645
01:43:22,240 --> 01:43:25,920
Speaker 7: I'm on Twitter at b I L L E E.

1646
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:28,639
Speaker 9: The number four, the letter D, so you can try

1647
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:31,160
Speaker 9: to stay up on some of the conflict dynamics there.

1648
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:35,160
Speaker 7: But yeah, the USIP websites where we published most of

1649
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:36,320
Speaker 7: our most of our stuff.

1650
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:39,880
Speaker 4: In closing, I just want to share how much hope

1651
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,240
Speaker 4: I found in the conflict in the MR in recent weeks.

1652
01:43:42,640 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 4: At a time when the world seems so full of cruelty,

1653
01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 4: it's inspiring to see people relatively unified, committed to respecting

1654
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 4: life and civilians and succeeding against all the odds. This

1655
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:57,639
Speaker 4: doesn't mean they don't need help. They do desperately, and

1656
01:43:58,000 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 4: I hope that this people continue to advocate to us

1657
01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:03,559
Speaker 4: millions in Gaza. They can include civillions and revolutionaries from

1658
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 4: me and Mark in their demands going forward.

1659
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,759
Speaker 3: Welcome, Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew Siege

1660
01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:28,920
Speaker 3: from YouTube channel Andrewism, joined today.

1661
01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:33,639
Speaker 4: By James Hi. Sorry, I'm doing my own track hire.

1662
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1663
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:37,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited to hear about something. I don't know

1664
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:39,639
Speaker 4: what yet, So this should be a fun adventure.

1665
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:41,760
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, today we are doing a little bit of

1666
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:45,680
Speaker 3: time travel. Then we're gonna embark on a journey to

1667
01:44:45,960 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 3: explode movements of about two hundred years ago that I

1668
01:44:50,080 --> 01:44:54,000
Speaker 3: think is still quite relevant even today, particularly in our

1669
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:59,760
Speaker 3: very technological, fast paced world. So when we put a

1670
01:44:59,800 --> 01:45:04,679
Speaker 3: new games in the early nineteenth century in England great,

1671
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:07,960
Speaker 3: which you know, is a time of great change, of evil,

1672
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 3: disease or that jazz.

1673
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:15,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I had thrived as a person with diabetes,

1674
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:17,719
Speaker 4: that would have made it approximately, you know, a couple

1675
01:45:17,760 --> 01:45:18,200
Speaker 4: of weeks.

1676
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:24,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. The Industrial Revolution was in full swing. It hadn't

1677
01:45:24,360 --> 01:45:27,240
Speaker 3: quite reached that point yet as far as I know,

1678
01:45:28,439 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 3: but it was transforming the way that people lived and worked.

1679
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:34,040
Speaker 3: It was a time of innovation, was also a time

1680
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 3: of great uncertainty, and amidst the classroom looms and rise

1681
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:41,800
Speaker 3: of organization, a group of workers emerged to became known

1682
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:47,240
Speaker 3: as the Latites. They were, you know, some early adopters. Ah, Yes,

1683
01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 3: of resistance, Yes, resistance to the changes of the Industrial Revolution.

1684
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:55,400
Speaker 3: And you know, for that cardinal sin they've been missing

1685
01:45:55,439 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 3: too preton ever since. So today we're going to be

1686
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:02,720
Speaker 3: explaining exactly who who the Lights were and why their

1687
01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:06,280
Speaker 3: actions resonate with us today in the twenty first century.

1688
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 3: We'll talk about their history and their motivations and their

1689
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:14,320
Speaker 3: brave stand against the relentless march of capitalist progress. We're

1690
01:46:14,320 --> 01:46:17,920
Speaker 3: also such on some figures, some of their tactics, and

1691
01:46:18,040 --> 01:46:20,880
Speaker 3: the last impact they left on history. But most importantly,

1692
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:24,680
Speaker 3: we'll be covering why they struggle Somatus today. So here

1693
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:27,360
Speaker 3: we are. You know, in the nineteenth century indust Revolution

1694
01:46:27,479 --> 01:46:31,240
Speaker 3: souping through England, British working families were going through some

1695
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 3: very tough times as the economy was in turmoil and

1696
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 3: unemployment was spreading like wildfire. It really wasn't a good

1697
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:41,639
Speaker 3: situation to be in. There was this never ending war

1698
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:45,080
Speaker 3: with Napoleon's France, there was Drian resources and causing what

1699
01:46:45,240 --> 01:46:51,320
Speaker 3: Yorkshire historian Frank Peel described as the hard pinch of poverty.

1700
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:55,320
Speaker 3: And to make matters worse, food was in short supply

1701
01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:58,800
Speaker 3: and the prices were shooting up. Not only were jobs

1702
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 3: hard to come by, but even putting basic food on

1703
01:47:01,280 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 3: the table was becoming a serious challenge. So it's a

1704
01:47:03,560 --> 01:47:05,759
Speaker 3: really tough period for these families and they were feeling

1705
01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:10,200
Speaker 3: that squeeze in every way possible. So that Light emerged

1706
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:13,759
Speaker 3: as a response to these seismic shifts as a loosely

1707
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 3: organized group of textile workers and weavers who healed primarily

1708
01:47:17,280 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 3: but not exclusively, from the nottingham Shire region of England.

1709
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 3: At the heart of their struggle was the mechanization of

1710
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:31,479
Speaker 3: the textile industry. Factories powered by steam engines and intricate

1711
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:36,640
Speaker 3: machinery were replacing traditional cottage industries, leading to unemployment and

1712
01:47:36,680 --> 01:47:40,080
Speaker 3: a decline in working conditions. In the place of a

1713
01:47:40,400 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 3: cottage industry where cloth workers could work as many or

1714
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:47,080
Speaker 3: as few hours and days suited them, the factory had

1715
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:50,720
Speaker 3: a reseren where workers would work long hours at dangerous machinery,

1716
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:54,240
Speaker 3: be fed meager meals, and submit to the punitive authority

1717
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:59,240
Speaker 3: of the foremant Factory owners were winning. As I alluded

1718
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:02,840
Speaker 3: to earlier, the rights were not blindly opposed to this

1719
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:06,360
Speaker 3: idea of progress, as they've been misinterpreted, but they were

1720
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:10,160
Speaker 3: seeking to protect their livelihoods and the quality of their craftsmanship.

1721
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:13,640
Speaker 3: Many of the original rights were actually quite savvy when

1722
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:17,519
Speaker 3: it came to technology. In fact, some were highly skilled

1723
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:21,559
Speaker 3: machine operators that ended up smashing the very machines that

1724
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:27,240
Speaker 3: they were accustomed to use in They had no issue

1725
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:31,839
Speaker 3: with welcoming innovations that made their lives and their jobs easier,

1726
01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 3: but they had an issue with the way that the

1727
01:48:34,160 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 3: new machinery is being used by the factory owners to

1728
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:39,920
Speaker 3: reduce them to mare cogs in the industrial machine. And

1729
01:48:39,960 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 3: they didn't like that factory owners were using the machinery

1730
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:45,200
Speaker 3: to kick out the trained and skilled cloth workers in

1731
01:48:45,240 --> 01:48:48,679
Speaker 3: fear of child laborers and other lower skilled workers would

1732
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:53,559
Speaker 3: be easier to exploit. The cloth for these machines produced

1733
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:56,400
Speaker 3: was of lower quality, but because it was so cheap

1734
01:48:56,439 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 3: to churn out and there was so much of it,

1735
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 3: the factory owners were still ted inner profit and so

1736
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:03,120
Speaker 3: that you know, that sucks for them, which is why

1737
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:08,920
Speaker 3: the rights to resist these changes embraced a distinctive form

1738
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:13,439
Speaker 3: of protest. At the time, labor organizing was labor organizing

1739
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:18,719
Speaker 3: was illegal, so they chose a suppose even more drastic

1740
01:49:18,760 --> 01:49:23,160
Speaker 3: method of targets in the newly introduced machines for destruction. Yeah,

1741
01:49:23,240 --> 01:49:23,559
Speaker 3: they were.

1742
01:49:24,479 --> 01:49:26,960
Speaker 4: Is it E. P. Thompson who called it collective bargaining

1743
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:27,559
Speaker 4: by riot?

1744
01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I believe so.

1745
01:49:30,920 --> 01:49:33,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's an excellent way to understand it.

1746
01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:35,680
Speaker 4: I'm sure we'll get there, but it's yeah, it's a

1747
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:40,040
Speaker 4: means of labor organizing when labor organizing is illegal.

1748
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:43,879
Speaker 3: Indeed, indeed, and then if no other options are available

1749
01:49:43,960 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 3: to you, you know, you're pressed against the wall. They

1750
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 3: have no other choice.

1751
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:52,479
Speaker 12: Yeah, So these uh, these loot rights would gather together

1752
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:55,720
Speaker 12: in the dead of the night, usually in secluded areas

1753
01:49:55,760 --> 01:49:58,520
Speaker 12: like forests or hillsides to plan their actions.

1754
01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:04,439
Speaker 3: To maintain secrecy, the Rights adopted a strict code of silence,

1755
01:50:04,479 --> 01:50:08,040
Speaker 3: making it very difficult for authorities to infiltrate their ranks.

1756
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:13,000
Speaker 3: That secrecy was crucial to their survival and their ability

1757
01:50:13,040 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 3: to outwit the authorities, and so under this code they'd

1758
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:19,640
Speaker 3: go on and break into the factories and smash the machinery,

1759
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:24,320
Speaker 3: and occasionally leave an etching of the infamous ned Luod

1760
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:30,000
Speaker 3: as a mark of their presence. Ned Luod, by the way,

1761
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 3: was a symbol, not their actual leader. He was a

1762
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 3: legendary weaver who was said to have been whipped for idleness,

1763
01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:39,599
Speaker 3: so he smashed two knit in frames in a fit

1764
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:44,880
Speaker 3: of passion. More likely, Nedlood didn't exist. He was more

1765
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:49,000
Speaker 3: of like a folkloric character, but the Rights named themselves

1766
01:50:49,040 --> 01:50:51,719
Speaker 3: after him and would call them King Lood and General Luod.

1767
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:55,800
Speaker 3: Funny enough, the authorities actually thought he was the ringleader

1768
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:59,560
Speaker 3: of the whole operation, so they tried to hunt him down. Meanwhile,

1769
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:02,920
Speaker 3: of course, the Ludites jokingly referring to the Lud's office

1770
01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:06,679
Speaker 3: and Shewood Forest, and some of the Luodites would actually

1771
01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:10,080
Speaker 3: cross dress as luds wives during their protests.

1772
01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:16,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do, like every time you find an instance

1773
01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:20,200
Speaker 4: of like cross dressing in history. So it was just

1774
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:22,559
Speaker 4: amusing to note that. I guess some people have decided

1775
01:51:22,560 --> 01:51:26,639
Speaker 4: that like either either like cross dressing or trans people

1776
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:29,720
Speaker 4: were invented in like twenty sixteen, not that those two

1777
01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:32,200
Speaker 4: things are the same, but like, we can find literally

1778
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:35,960
Speaker 4: thousands of instances of of course trans people and also crossdressing,

1779
01:51:36,920 --> 01:51:41,120
Speaker 4: like as a form of like deliberate sometimes it's transgression.

1780
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,840
Speaker 4: Sometimes the thing that just people did. But yeah, you

1781
01:51:44,880 --> 01:51:47,240
Speaker 4: can see it in depictions of the Luddites, Like people

1782
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:49,880
Speaker 4: even took the time to paint it into their paintings

1783
01:51:51,080 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 4: exactly exactly.

1784
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:58,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, but yees, so I mean the leader wasn't ned loud,

1785
01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:02,400
Speaker 3: the leader, well, it really was a lead less movement.

1786
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:06,320
Speaker 3: The real instigators were just regular on the ground weavers

1787
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:10,639
Speaker 3: and craftsmen, folks like, for example, George Mellow, a weaver

1788
01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:14,320
Speaker 3: from Huddersfield who played a pivotal role in organizing the

1789
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:17,320
Speaker 3: right actions in the West Riding of Yorkshire, best known

1790
01:52:17,360 --> 01:52:21,200
Speaker 3: for the time that he fatally shot a mill owner

1791
01:52:22,080 --> 01:52:33,559
Speaker 3: in the balls. Yeah, chad move indeed, indeed, But these

1792
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:36,320
Speaker 3: actions were not just you know, random acts of vandalism

1793
01:52:36,360 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 3: and violence. They were a desperate plea for change. In fact,

1794
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 3: they mainly confined their attacks to manufacturers who specifically use

1795
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:47,439
Speaker 3: machines in what they called a fraudulent and sitful manner

1796
01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:51,719
Speaker 3: to get around standard labor practices. The lights wanted machines

1797
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:54,639
Speaker 3: that made high quality goods, and they wanted these machines

1798
01:52:54,640 --> 01:52:56,320
Speaker 3: to be run by workers who had gone through an

1799
01:52:56,320 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 3: apprenticeship and got paid decent wages. Those were really their

1800
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:06,840
Speaker 3: main concerns. And besides the raids and the smashing, they

1801
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:09,920
Speaker 3: also had a couple other tricks up their sleeves. They

1802
01:53:10,000 --> 01:53:14,240
Speaker 3: organized public demonstrations, They sent out letters to local industrialists

1803
01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:17,160
Speaker 3: and government officials to lay out their reasons for wrecking

1804
01:53:17,200 --> 01:53:20,799
Speaker 3: the machinery. They were just smashing flow reason with no messaging.

1805
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 3: And in different parts of England, you know, you had

1806
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:31,639
Speaker 3: different approaches, different stances and different material conditions. So, for example,

1807
01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:35,120
Speaker 3: in the Midlands of England, the rights had the Company

1808
01:53:35,240 --> 01:53:38,880
Speaker 3: of Framework Knitters, which was this recognized public body that

1809
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:41,960
Speaker 3: could talk to the capitalists through named representatives, and so

1810
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 3: they used that legitimacy as a recognized institution to back

1811
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:48,639
Speaker 3: up their demands. But up in the northwest of England,

1812
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:52,840
Speaker 3: textile workers didn't have these established trade institutions, so they

1813
01:53:52,920 --> 01:53:55,600
Speaker 3: used their letters to push for official recognition as a

1814
01:53:55,720 --> 01:53:57,880
Speaker 3: united group of trades people. You know, it's like an

1815
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:02,000
Speaker 3: early union. The demands and just of course about smash machines.

1816
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:05,800
Speaker 3: They also wanted high min on wages and again an

1817
01:54:05,920 --> 01:54:09,760
Speaker 3: end to child labor. They were playing the long game,

1818
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:14,000
Speaker 3: and in Yorkshire, you know the tone shifts of it.

1819
01:54:14,720 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 3: They were going from letter writ into making more direct

1820
01:54:18,120 --> 01:54:21,719
Speaker 3: and violent threats against local authorities who they saw support

1821
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 3: in these nasty machines that messed with the job market

1822
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:30,160
Speaker 3: the Yorkshire that writes meant business. In fact, they carried

1823
01:54:30,160 --> 01:54:34,120
Speaker 3: around these sledgehammers that they call the Great Enoch, named

1824
01:54:34,160 --> 01:54:38,400
Speaker 3: after local blacksmith who had manufactured both the hammers and

1825
01:54:38,480 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 3: also many of the machines they intended to destroy. As

1826
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:46,840
Speaker 3: they declared Enoch made them, Enoch shall break them, which

1827
01:54:46,880 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 3: I think is just the division that gives me is like,

1828
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:53,280
Speaker 3: you know, God of War style, you know, swinging around

1829
01:54:53,320 --> 01:54:55,360
Speaker 3: this sledgehammer smash of the machines.

1830
01:54:55,880 --> 01:54:58,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Like I mean they broke some big things, right,

1831
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:02,800
Speaker 4: Like they weren't. Uh, this wasn't like, I know, like

1832
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:06,720
Speaker 4: some sort of trivial sabotage like frame breaking is. It's

1833
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:08,920
Speaker 4: still a capital crime in the UK, but it's also

1834
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 4: a serious feet of strength.

1835
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:12,840
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm going to get into that.

1836
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:15,240
Speaker 4: Excellent good. Yeah, I love coming from a country with

1837
01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 4: normal laws.

1838
01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:23,680
Speaker 3: There's so many. Don't even get me started on strange

1839
01:55:23,720 --> 01:55:26,040
Speaker 3: laws around the world. I mean, yeah, you're ensuring that

1840
01:55:26,080 --> 01:55:28,720
Speaker 3: there are some really strange, strange laws. But yeah, yeah,

1841
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:30,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure that could be a whole topic for a

1842
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 3: whole episode.

1843
01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:34,520
Speaker 4: It could be you could suggest that they're not connected

1844
01:55:34,520 --> 01:55:38,680
Speaker 4: to morality. Perhaps maybe maybe the law and right and

1845
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:39,720
Speaker 4: wrong is not the same thing.

1846
01:55:40,720 --> 01:55:45,120
Speaker 3: M you might be onto something there, Yeah, ponder something

1847
01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 3: to think about for sure.

1848
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1849
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:51,000
Speaker 3: So a lot of these differences and approaches like I mentioned,

1850
01:55:51,080 --> 01:55:53,840
Speaker 3: really depending on their material conditions. It also depended on

1851
01:55:53,880 --> 01:55:56,400
Speaker 3: the background of the workers. Some of them were frameworkers,

1852
01:55:56,720 --> 01:55:58,640
Speaker 3: some of them were weavers, some of them were spinners,

1853
01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,960
Speaker 3: and so they conduferent tactics and styles depending on what

1854
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:07,400
Speaker 3: they were experienced with and where you found them. Of course,

1855
01:56:07,400 --> 01:56:10,120
Speaker 3: they were sending out death threats to some industrialists as well,

1856
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 3: and in fact Some of these industrialists were so worried

1857
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:16,520
Speaker 3: about let light attacks that they had secret chambers built

1858
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:19,600
Speaker 3: into their buildings as escape plans in case things went

1859
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:23,920
Speaker 3: south during an attack. Yeah, you could imagine them cowering

1860
01:56:24,000 --> 01:56:28,480
Speaker 3: in their holes. Yeah, just like as were outside.

1861
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:32,080
Speaker 4: Imagine being like, yeah, I'm making excellent choices in life.

1862
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:34,880
Speaker 4: I employ hundreds of people, and I've built a secret

1863
01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:36,800
Speaker 4: hole to hiding when They'll never be trying to kill

1864
01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:38,360
Speaker 4: me because I've made their lives so shit.

1865
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:42,680
Speaker 3: Yes, like I am going to create conditions that are

1866
01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 3: so terrible. These people are going to get so angry

1867
01:56:46,600 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 3: at me, and then I'm just going to make a

1868
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:52,840
Speaker 3: place to hide, you know. Yeah, so of actually rectifying

1869
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:54,600
Speaker 3: the reasons they're angry.

1870
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Like you could simply take the money you

1871
01:56:58,120 --> 01:57:02,040
Speaker 4: spent on your secret escape hatch and distributed to people

1872
01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:04,760
Speaker 4: who are literally struggling to put food in their children's mouths.

1873
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:07,200
Speaker 4: But I guess that's not the logic of capitalism, is it.

1874
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:10,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'll be too that'll be too humane.

1875
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah, you can't let them get you know,

1876
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:15,400
Speaker 4: realize that you're afraid of them.

1877
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:19,880
Speaker 3: Indeed, for all these tactics, the rights were truly fights

1878
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:22,840
Speaker 3: not only for their own jobs, but also for us, say,

1879
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:26,640
Speaker 3: in the future of their industry and their communities. Like

1880
01:57:26,840 --> 01:57:29,080
Speaker 3: regular people of today, they were just trying to provide

1881
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:33,160
Speaker 3: for their families and defend themselves against the ever expanding

1882
01:57:33,280 --> 01:57:39,600
Speaker 3: incursions of the capitalists. I don't know, James, how do

1883
01:57:39,680 --> 01:57:44,840
Speaker 3: you think the government and factor and has responded to

1884
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:52,680
Speaker 3: these ordinary people and their desperate and fair please for change. Yeah,

1885
01:57:52,760 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 3: surely it was a human response right.

1886
01:57:55,160 --> 01:57:57,720
Speaker 4: From Yeah, that's what I would expect as a British person.

1887
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:00,880
Speaker 4: Throughout history of our government has really shown of humanity

1888
01:58:01,680 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 4: and compassion for people, so i'd expect they did something

1889
01:58:04,320 --> 01:58:05,960
Speaker 4: similar here. That's what I learned it.

1890
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:12,720
Speaker 3: They're so compassionate that they created an empire that the

1891
01:58:12,760 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 3: sun would never set on m hm. And the reason

1892
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:18,280
Speaker 3: is so considerate, you know, for people who are afraid

1893
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:18,720
Speaker 3: of the dark.

1894
01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:23,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's the real reason.

1895
01:58:23,680 --> 01:58:23,880
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1896
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:25,960
Speaker 4: And of course they were doing it to uplift, civilize

1897
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:28,840
Speaker 4: and christianize the other peoples of the world, and for

1898
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:30,080
Speaker 4: their other reasons.

1899
01:58:31,000 --> 01:58:34,960
Speaker 3: Such philanthropists, such philanthropists.

1900
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:38,200
Speaker 4: Kind people who bought tea and SCons to to the

1901
01:58:38,240 --> 01:58:41,040
Speaker 4: rest of the world. The British Empire and the British government.

1902
01:58:41,120 --> 01:58:41,280
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1903
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:44,800
Speaker 4: Never am I going to learn something bad about them?

1904
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:49,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hate to let you down, but the government

1905
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:53,720
Speaker 3: and the factory and I was responded with, you know,

1906
01:58:54,040 --> 01:58:58,160
Speaker 3: deploying troops to quell the Lights uprisings and firing against

1907
01:58:58,160 --> 01:59:02,320
Speaker 3: the protesters. In one of the bloodiest incidents, in April

1908
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:06,920
Speaker 3: eighteen twelve, some two thousand protesters marbed a mill there Manchester,

1909
01:59:07,400 --> 01:59:10,919
Speaker 3: and the owner ordered his men because in addition to soldiers,

1910
01:59:10,920 --> 01:59:13,880
Speaker 3: you also have these, you know, private militias that capitalists

1911
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 3: would hire. So the owner ordered his men to fire

1912
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:20,320
Speaker 3: into the crowd, killing at least three and wound in

1913
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:23,800
Speaker 3: eighteen and then soldiers killed at least five more the

1914
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:24,320
Speaker 3: next day.

1915
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:27,840
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that's that's not quite what we'd hope for,

1916
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:28,200
Speaker 4: is it.

1917
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:29,240
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1918
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:33,640
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. Many of the Lights were arrested, many were tortured,

1919
01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:42,400
Speaker 3: some even faced execution or even worse, exile to Australia.

1920
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. They're ultimate the ultimate crime, the ultimn penalty. Rather, Yeah,

1921
01:59:47,240 --> 01:59:49,960
Speaker 4: it's sent to the land of kangaroos and where they

1922
01:59:49,960 --> 01:59:55,040
Speaker 4: put mashed potatoes inside their pies. What Yeah, have you

1923
01:59:55,080 --> 01:59:56,720
Speaker 4: not seen this? This is it's terrible.

1924
01:59:57,040 --> 01:59:59,800
Speaker 3: But unfortunately are you talking about like shepherd's pie or.

1925
02:00:00,200 --> 02:00:02,400
Speaker 4: No, they'll they'll take a meat pie like a normal

1926
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,280
Speaker 4: meat pie, and then they'll cut a bit and then

1927
02:00:05,280 --> 02:00:10,200
Speaker 4: put mashed potatoes like into in the top of it.

1928
02:00:10,320 --> 02:00:12,040
Speaker 3: Just to what is called.

1929
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:16,040
Speaker 4: I'd have to look now, like I've seen it on

1930
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:20,360
Speaker 4: YouTube meat pie mashed potato Australia. You can get it

1931
02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:22,080
Speaker 4: like it in like you know, like like it's like

1932
02:00:22,160 --> 02:00:25,160
Speaker 4: instead of having fish and chips. You can get it

1933
02:00:25,160 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 4: at a van. Like someone will bring it to you.

1934
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:29,120
Speaker 3: I think I'm seeing it.

1935
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:31,920
Speaker 4: You found it and then they put like gravy as well.

1936
02:00:32,640 --> 02:00:33,240
Speaker 3: Oh man.

1937
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I've come from a country that does

1938
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:41,000
Speaker 4: terrible things to food. But yeah, it's this one is

1939
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:45,600
Speaker 4: really something else. You can see why people where it

1940
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:47,120
Speaker 4: was the word.

1941
02:00:47,120 --> 02:00:50,200
Speaker 3: I have to say though, I do admire that it

1942
02:00:50,280 --> 02:00:52,440
Speaker 3: seems to be a very balanced you know, you get

1943
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:54,720
Speaker 3: in the cobs, the fats and the proteins in it.

1944
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,520
Speaker 4: You know, it's like, yeah, and it's all in one.

1945
02:00:57,720 --> 02:00:59,760
Speaker 3: That's that's the gym bro and meats talking of course,

1946
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 3: but it seems like a very efficient meal.

1947
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. It's like it's not that the Cornish pasty is

1948
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:11,040
Speaker 4: the truly the most efficient working man's power bar because

1949
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:14,680
Speaker 4: you can you can hold onto the crust and eat

1950
02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:16,760
Speaker 4: the pasty and even if you have like dirty hands

1951
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 4: from working in a factory, you still get your lunch.

1952
02:01:21,240 --> 02:01:25,080
Speaker 3: Hmm. Yeah, but we're getting a little bit side.

1953
02:01:25,400 --> 02:01:28,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we have. We've traveled a long way.

1954
02:01:28,040 --> 02:01:34,920
Speaker 3: From the exiles Australia. I shut out the thought, but

1955
02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:38,920
Speaker 3: some of them, despite that, kept their fighting spirit to

1956
02:01:38,920 --> 02:01:43,320
Speaker 3: the bitter end, like for example, John Booth and no

1957
02:01:43,400 --> 02:01:46,920
Speaker 3: offense to you, James. But you know, a lot of

1958
02:01:46,920 --> 02:01:51,600
Speaker 3: the names I read, like British history are the most

1959
02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:56,400
Speaker 3: generic sound in names. You just casually find someone in

1960
02:01:56,400 --> 02:02:00,560
Speaker 3: British named like John Doe.

1961
02:02:00,760 --> 02:02:03,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do. We're choosing from a limited palette. Like

1962
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:10,440
Speaker 4: until very recently, we were really pretty pretty like pretty

1963
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:12,280
Speaker 4: stodgy on the names, you know, Like.

1964
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:16,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, it's it's iconic, but at the

1965
02:02:16,600 --> 02:02:20,120
Speaker 3: same time it's also hilarious that you like everybody from

1966
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:24,040
Speaker 3: like regular people to like some of the movers and cheapers,

1967
02:02:25,240 --> 02:02:29,440
Speaker 3: the leaders in the military and you know, politicians and stuff,

1968
02:02:29,480 --> 02:02:30,400
Speaker 3: just all of them.

1969
02:02:31,560 --> 02:02:37,240
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, it's like they had yeah yeah, yeah, just

1970
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 4: some guy. Occasionally you'll get like a Cornelius or a

1971
02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:43,080
Speaker 4: Mama duke or just some absolute nons with like a

1972
02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:47,160
Speaker 4: really posh name. But yeah, otherwise, yeah, it's.

1973
02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:49,480
Speaker 3: Well apparently like an Enoch, you know.

1974
02:02:50,080 --> 02:02:52,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you got to respect Enoch. Like once you

1975
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 4: go outside of England you get some good names. But like, yeah,

1976
02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:59,960
Speaker 4: we were moving with a pretty pretty pretty playing with

1977
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:02,200
Speaker 4: playing with a small deck. I guess when it came

1978
02:03:02,240 --> 02:03:03,200
Speaker 4: to names for a while there.

1979
02:03:03,400 --> 02:03:05,400
Speaker 3: For I mean, I can't even talk. My name is Andrews,

1980
02:03:05,440 --> 02:03:07,280
Speaker 3: so I think.

1981
02:03:07,160 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 4: My name is the most popular name for boys born

1982
02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:12,000
Speaker 4: in the year I was born. So I can't really

1983
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:13,040
Speaker 4: can't really say much.

1984
02:03:15,640 --> 02:03:18,000
Speaker 3: Oh God, we're going off track again, right yeah. John

1985
02:03:18,040 --> 02:03:18,880
Speaker 3: Booth Right?

1986
02:03:19,280 --> 02:03:19,360
Speaker 10: So?

1987
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:22,800
Speaker 3: John Booth was this nineteen year old apprentice who joined

1988
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:26,440
Speaker 3: one of the light attacks. He was injured, detained, and

1989
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:29,880
Speaker 3: died after being tortured to give up the identity of

1990
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:33,600
Speaker 3: his fellow thelites. A local priest was in the room

1991
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:38,160
Speaker 3: when he was passing, and his dying words became legendary.

1992
02:03:38,320 --> 02:03:44,400
Speaker 3: So John was like, can you keep a secret? And

1993
02:03:44,440 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 3: the priest was like, yes, my child, and then Booth

1994
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:51,480
Speaker 3: was like, so can I and then he died.

1995
02:03:53,720 --> 02:03:55,360
Speaker 4: There you go, what a hero.

1996
02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:57,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, iconic, iconic.

1997
02:03:57,760 --> 02:03:58,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1998
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:01,720
Speaker 3: So yeah, government officials by eighteen th eighteen, we're trying

1999
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:04,840
Speaker 3: to quash the light movement by any means necessary, so

2000
02:04:04,880 --> 02:04:08,760
Speaker 3: they organize this massive trial in York after the attack

2001
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:12,440
Speaker 3: on Cartwright's mill. A Rawford's near Clakheaton.

2002
02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:16,040
Speaker 4: I've got a right, yeah, clak Heaton. I think that

2003
02:04:16,080 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 4: seems about right. Where are we in the Yeah, yeah,

2004
02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:21,760
Speaker 4: we're in I'm signing it on the map, okay, in

2005
02:04:21,800 --> 02:04:25,800
Speaker 4: Ellits Yeah, yeah, Bradford. I've not actually spent much time

2006
02:04:25,800 --> 02:04:26,960
Speaker 4: in that part of the world, but if I had

2007
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:32,440
Speaker 4: to guess, raw folds something like that. We do, like

2008
02:04:32,480 --> 02:04:35,520
Speaker 4: one of our ano Another great tradition in Britain is

2009
02:04:35,520 --> 02:04:38,840
Speaker 4: having names which don't bear any relation to the way

2010
02:04:38,840 --> 02:04:40,720
Speaker 4: they're spelled. We just write them like that. Actually can

2011
02:04:40,720 --> 02:04:41,680
Speaker 4: tell if you're local or not.

2012
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean we primarily use British spelling conventions.

2013
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:53,400
Speaker 3: Internet in English, so I know all about your center

2014
02:04:54,480 --> 02:04:56,360
Speaker 3: with the R and then the E.

2015
02:04:57,720 --> 02:05:01,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, defense and yeah. I'm working on a book at

2016
02:05:01,200 --> 02:05:04,760
Speaker 4: the moment and my American Microsoft word is fighting me

2017
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:06,640
Speaker 4: every step of the way on my spelling.

2018
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:11,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, can't they see that the U is

2019
02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:13,280
Speaker 3: absolutely essential in the word color.

2020
02:05:13,400 --> 02:05:15,320
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and without it we wouldn't know what it meant.

2021
02:05:15,360 --> 02:05:17,120
Speaker 4: And that's what language does.

2022
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:22,880
Speaker 3: So yeah. So, after this attack on Cartwright's Miller Ruffles

2023
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:29,160
Speaker 3: mayor Clakheaton, the government accused over sixty men, including Mellow

2024
02:05:29,280 --> 02:05:33,040
Speaker 3: and his associates, of various crimes related to the Lights activities.

2025
02:05:34,000 --> 02:05:36,520
Speaker 3: It's important to note that not all of these charged

2026
02:05:36,720 --> 02:05:40,120
Speaker 3: men were actually the Lightes. Some had no connection to

2027
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:44,800
Speaker 3: the movement, and while these trials were technically legitimateury trials,

2028
02:05:45,520 --> 02:05:48,240
Speaker 3: many were abandoned due to a lack of evidence laid

2029
02:05:48,280 --> 02:05:51,000
Speaker 3: in the acquittal of thirty of those sixty men, and

2030
02:05:51,040 --> 02:05:54,520
Speaker 3: it's evident that these trials were primarily intended as show

2031
02:05:54,640 --> 02:05:58,240
Speaker 3: trials to discourage other the Lights from continuing the activities.

2032
02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 3: And then here's where we get to the important bit.

2033
02:06:03,400 --> 02:06:06,120
Speaker 3: Parliament went on to make a machine breaking I eat,

2034
02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 3: industrial sabotage a capital crime with the Frame Breaking Act

2035
02:06:11,200 --> 02:06:12,160
Speaker 3: of eighteen twelve.

2036
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:16,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, what a normal thing. And they've never repealed it,

2037
02:06:16,200 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 4: is that right?

2038
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:17,480
Speaker 11: Yeah?

2039
02:06:17,720 --> 02:06:20,920
Speaker 3: I believe I don't think so. Ye're still in the books.

2040
02:06:21,360 --> 02:06:26,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, listen if you're listening. Since it was yeah, I

2041
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:27,760
Speaker 4: was gonna say if someone's listening in the UK, just

2042
02:06:27,760 --> 02:06:31,600
Speaker 4: give it a try and see what happened. Stakes stakes

2043
02:06:31,600 --> 02:06:34,240
Speaker 4: are quite high, but yeah, you know, you never know,

2044
02:06:34,400 --> 02:06:35,960
Speaker 4: they might be might be able to get the Machine

2045
02:06:36,000 --> 02:06:37,280
Speaker 4: Breaking Act struck down.

2046
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:40,760
Speaker 3: A frame brankingly. I wouldn't be surprised if, you know,

2047
02:06:40,880 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 3: since it was established in eighteen twelve, if by now

2048
02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 3: a lot of the British colonies you know, might still

2049
02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:52,080
Speaker 3: have it in their books as well. Yeah, yeah, have

2050
02:06:52,160 --> 02:06:55,680
Speaker 3: inherited that common though and stuff. Yeah, and I'm not

2051
02:06:55,760 --> 02:06:57,320
Speaker 3: like a legal score. I don't know all the deeds

2052
02:06:57,360 --> 02:06:57,520
Speaker 3: on that.

2053
02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:00,280
Speaker 4: No, I can see Liz trust incorporating it to her

2054
02:07:00,320 --> 02:07:04,560
Speaker 4: platform to return to our leadership position. It's like a

2055
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:08,200
Speaker 4: very insane kind of Tory position, Like there's there's still

2056
02:07:08,320 --> 02:07:12,040
Speaker 4: this bizarre British like any time we have a protest

2057
02:07:12,120 --> 02:07:14,320
Speaker 4: movement in the streets in the UK, you can like

2058
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:18,400
Speaker 4: log onto like meta on Facebook or whatever and see

2059
02:07:18,520 --> 02:07:21,480
Speaker 4: like a certain type of British person being like sending

2060
02:07:21,560 --> 02:07:26,000
Speaker 4: the army. Like it's like a like there are people

2061
02:07:26,080 --> 02:07:29,120
Speaker 4: who have not reconstructed their opinions on labor organizing since

2062
02:07:29,160 --> 02:07:30,000
Speaker 4: the LA that period.

2063
02:07:31,440 --> 02:07:36,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, indeed, indeed they are the Conservative Party picture them

2064
02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:42,400
Speaker 3: like smoking cigars with top hats, except I know they

2065
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:44,480
Speaker 3: were not capitalists. A lot of them are just like

2066
02:07:44,640 --> 02:07:46,840
Speaker 3: regular workers, just like what are you even doing?

2067
02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:50,800
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, like you've like, don't you understand that

2068
02:07:50,840 --> 02:07:53,920
Speaker 4: your economic interests line up with these people and not

2069
02:07:54,080 --> 02:07:57,320
Speaker 4: with like the Boris Johnson's of this world, and your

2070
02:07:57,360 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 4: social social interest too of course.

2071
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:02,760
Speaker 3: But I mean speaking of of you know, interests aligning,

2072
02:08:04,280 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 3: there was actually a politician who did stand against that legislation,

2073
02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:11,800
Speaker 3: and that is you know, the well known English poet

2074
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:15,000
Speaker 3: Lord Byron. Yeah, he was actually one of the few

2075
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:19,320
Speaker 3: prominent defenders that it's especially after witnessing how the defendants

2076
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:20,760
Speaker 3: were treated during the York trial.

2077
02:08:22,400 --> 02:08:26,240
Speaker 4: I mean, go ahead, bar Byron has some surprisingly like

2078
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:29,640
Speaker 4: good and then he was part of this romantic movement, right,

2079
02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:33,280
Speaker 4: like the idea that the industrial revolution spoiled the innocence

2080
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:37,600
Speaker 4: of the rural working people, which it's it's paternalist at

2081
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:41,400
Speaker 4: its core, but like when at least he's not paying

2082
02:08:41,520 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 4: for their blood.

2083
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:47,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Actually that attitude reminds me of Van

2084
02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:53,240
Speaker 3: go She was another all of his art was very

2085
02:08:53,520 --> 02:08:55,800
Speaker 3: obsessed with the peasants because he just saw it like

2086
02:08:55,840 --> 02:08:59,960
Speaker 3: a better way of life. Yeah, real romanticization of the person.

2087
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:02,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. I think it was a thing that's

2088
02:09:02,720 --> 02:09:05,800
Speaker 4: sort of spread around Europe in their late nineteenth early

2089
02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:10,160
Speaker 4: twentieth century maybe like in the eighteenth centuries, no, they yeah,

2090
02:09:10,240 --> 02:09:13,480
Speaker 4: nineteen to twentieth century, like this idea that yeah, like

2091
02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:16,400
Speaker 4: the innocence of the rural peasants have been broken, and

2092
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:18,760
Speaker 4: like it's just so reflected in so much art from

2093
02:09:18,800 --> 02:09:19,320
Speaker 4: that period.

2094
02:09:19,360 --> 02:09:26,240
Speaker 3: That is, that's literally just like the evolution of nostalgia. Yeah,

2095
02:09:26,240 --> 02:09:27,120
Speaker 3: fully think about it.

2096
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:27,360
Speaker 9: You know.

2097
02:09:27,480 --> 02:09:29,760
Speaker 3: It's like it's kind of like our people today are like, oh,

2098
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:32,720
Speaker 3: the nineties was so much better. Oh, the two thousands

2099
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 3: were so much better. Oh the eighties or the seventies.

2100
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:42,280
Speaker 3: It's just that but with peasants. Yeah yeah, like disco whatever. Yeah, yeah,

2101
02:09:42,360 --> 02:09:45,160
Speaker 3: you're right, Like, yeah, it is. It's like doing like

2102
02:09:46,120 --> 02:09:50,280
Speaker 3: doing a ironic wearing a fanny pack, but with a peasant.

2103
02:09:50,480 --> 02:09:53,360
Speaker 3: Not even just in fashion. It's also like the angel

2104
02:09:53,400 --> 02:09:57,200
Speaker 3: like material reasons people feel nostalgic. Nostalgic as well. Yeah,

2105
02:09:57,480 --> 02:10:00,000
Speaker 3: like when think about you know, safety, when you think

2106
02:10:00,120 --> 02:10:03,680
Speaker 3: about the ways that our cities have changed, think about

2107
02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:07,720
Speaker 3: you know, all of the material realities that have changed

2108
02:10:07,760 --> 02:10:10,800
Speaker 3: in these decades, and it makes sense. But just like

2109
02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:13,760
Speaker 3: I wished for the simpler life of the present, our

2110
02:10:13,800 --> 02:10:17,320
Speaker 3: people now wish, you know, go back to these simpler

2111
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 3: times of.

2112
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:21,280
Speaker 4: You have the minus strike when.

2113
02:10:21,360 --> 02:10:27,080
Speaker 3: The media posts gym through and colonial independent inspience.

2114
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's uh I think also we

2115
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:33,440
Speaker 4: forget the hardships. But yeah, like it's a way, and

2116
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:38,400
Speaker 4: change accelerates so much quicker now because we've raally fucked

2117
02:10:38,400 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 4: the whole planet, and climate change accelerating and obviously to

2118
02:10:41,400 --> 02:10:44,560
Speaker 4: technological change accelerating, so our nostalgia cycles are much shorter.

2119
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:47,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, this is just like when I had an

2120
02:10:47,240 --> 02:10:50,680
Speaker 4: estate and I could direct the peasants to trim my

2121
02:10:50,800 --> 02:10:52,920
Speaker 4: trees in a certain shape, life was better for them

2122
02:10:53,640 --> 02:10:57,440
Speaker 4: kind of, but like in a meaningful sense, right, Like

2123
02:10:57,560 --> 02:11:00,760
Speaker 4: the lives of working class people were not improved. Right

2124
02:11:00,800 --> 02:11:04,720
Speaker 4: we see, like the like GDP, which is a useless

2125
02:11:05,120 --> 02:11:08,280
Speaker 4: metric that, like the amount of of like value of

2126
02:11:08,320 --> 02:11:10,760
Speaker 4: goods the country produces an industrial revolution goes up and

2127
02:11:10,840 --> 02:11:12,480
Speaker 4: up and up, but the quality of life and even

2128
02:11:12,600 --> 02:11:17,520
Speaker 4: life expectancy does not, right, Like people are dying earlier

2129
02:11:17,720 --> 02:11:21,840
Speaker 4: and certainly like and chiefly life expectancy is dropping because

2130
02:11:21,920 --> 02:11:25,240
Speaker 4: children are dying, right, either from the industrial conditions or

2131
02:11:25,280 --> 02:11:29,480
Speaker 4: conditions in cities, and so like, in a meaningful sense,

2132
02:11:29,560 --> 02:11:31,720
Speaker 4: those people's life was not improved. The life of the

2133
02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:33,040
Speaker 4: bourgeoisis was improved.

2134
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:33,480
Speaker 3: And like.

2135
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:37,440
Speaker 4: We see that later in Britain with things like the

2136
02:11:38,400 --> 02:11:41,840
Speaker 4: Britain's forced to incorporate the bourgeoisi into into its politics, right,

2137
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:44,680
Speaker 4: so that doesn't have a bigger revolution, that's what it

2138
02:11:44,720 --> 02:11:48,560
Speaker 4: does in the Great Reform Act. But like the working

2139
02:11:48,600 --> 02:11:53,200
Speaker 4: class people, it continues to suppress. Like after this, you know,

2140
02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:56,520
Speaker 4: we look, we see it with the chartists and like

2141
02:11:56,800 --> 02:12:01,760
Speaker 4: the violent suppression of chartism. But yeah, this nostalgia isn't

2142
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:04,760
Speaker 4: it helps them, but I guess it's not really invested

2143
02:12:04,920 --> 02:12:09,120
Speaker 4: in their agency. It's more of a paternalist like it's

2144
02:12:09,320 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 4: I guess not dissimilar to the way Britain treated its

2145
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:12,160
Speaker 4: colonies in many ways.

2146
02:12:13,440 --> 02:12:16,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think another aspect of it as well is,

2147
02:12:16,800 --> 02:12:18,600
Speaker 3: you know, when we look at this sort of nostalgia,

2148
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:22,160
Speaker 3: whether it's talking about this romantic nostalgia for the simple

2149
02:12:22,200 --> 02:12:24,880
Speaker 3: life of the peasant, always talking about the nostalgia of

2150
02:12:25,320 --> 02:12:31,680
Speaker 3: for example, an example from Trinidad, the oil boom period

2151
02:12:31,840 --> 02:12:37,080
Speaker 3: in the seventies and eighties, right, Yeah, we gain independence

2152
02:12:37,160 --> 02:12:40,640
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty two, and in the seventies and eighties we

2153
02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:42,880
Speaker 3: got this oil boom, and you know, a lot people

2154
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:46,600
Speaker 3: who live in lavish But whether you talk either of

2155
02:12:46,600 --> 02:12:48,400
Speaker 3: those cases, when you look at the reality of the

2156
02:12:48,480 --> 02:12:51,880
Speaker 3: situation on the ground, it's like, oh, you actually go

2157
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:54,320
Speaker 3: back to that time, it wasn't also on Shannon Russ,

2158
02:12:54,680 --> 02:12:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, like it actually was not good to be

2159
02:12:57,320 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 3: a peasant. Actually, I mean there are certain things that

2160
02:13:01,160 --> 02:13:03,200
Speaker 3: you know a lot better than now in terms of

2161
02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 3: perhaps the vibrants of culture or the ability to lean

2162
02:13:10,120 --> 02:13:13,040
Speaker 3: on a community for support and that sort of thing.

2163
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:16,960
Speaker 3: But or take for example, this oil boom situation talking

2164
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:20,920
Speaker 3: about with Trinidad. Yeah, like there was this massive influx

2165
02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:23,320
Speaker 3: of wealth and stuff, but there's also you know, a

2166
02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:25,560
Speaker 3: whole bunch of corruption. And also we had the whole

2167
02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:32,000
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy Black Power revolution that was born out of

2168
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:34,680
Speaker 3: the frustration of the people at the time. There's an

2169
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:36,360
Speaker 3: all sunshine and rainbows, you.

2170
02:13:36,360 --> 02:13:39,160
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's just always this sense like

2171
02:13:39,240 --> 02:13:42,120
Speaker 4: you see it in like nostalgia as well, right, Like

2172
02:13:42,200 --> 02:13:44,960
Speaker 4: the nostalgia for East Germany that German people will talk

2173
02:13:45,000 --> 02:13:50,280
Speaker 4: about like you also had the starz e Like, yeah, exactly.

2174
02:13:50,440 --> 02:13:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I get it when I look at

2175
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:56,200
Speaker 3: some of the maps of like like they're talking about

2176
02:13:56,200 --> 02:14:01,040
Speaker 3: with Germany, some of the data related maps sociological data

2177
02:14:01,120 --> 02:14:05,640
Speaker 3: of things like religiosity or things. Yeah, current with some

2178
02:14:05,680 --> 02:14:08,400
Speaker 3: other examples, but there's some like stark differences between the

2179
02:14:08,400 --> 02:14:11,800
Speaker 3: two sides of the country. Yes, yeah, yeah, very much so,

2180
02:14:12,000 --> 02:14:14,920
Speaker 3: so I completely understand people would feel like, oh, we

2181
02:14:15,080 --> 02:14:20,000
Speaker 3: feel so separate and distinct from you know, West Germany

2182
02:14:20,600 --> 02:14:21,520
Speaker 3: and all that stuff.

2183
02:14:21,640 --> 02:14:25,600
Speaker 4: But yeah, and when you've become like they went from

2184
02:14:25,720 --> 02:14:28,240
Speaker 4: being like a I guess, like a nation within the

2185
02:14:28,360 --> 02:14:32,120
Speaker 4: USSR to like the often the less economically advantage parts

2186
02:14:32,160 --> 02:14:34,040
Speaker 4: of a nation which is near liberal and capitalist, and

2187
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:38,200
Speaker 4: like neoliberal capitalism is not kind to the less economically

2188
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:42,800
Speaker 4: ad advantage people. It wasn't a great situation before either,

2189
02:14:43,080 --> 02:14:45,640
Speaker 4: to be clear, but like I can see how suddenly

2190
02:14:45,720 --> 02:14:49,280
Speaker 4: being incorporated into like not everyone's going through this, but

2191
02:14:49,400 --> 02:14:51,200
Speaker 4: you are are, and the state's not going to do

2192
02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:53,320
Speaker 4: fuck all to help you. It's like I can see

2193
02:14:53,360 --> 02:14:55,080
Speaker 4: how that might promote some nostalgia.

2194
02:14:56,640 --> 02:15:02,600
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, And I mean speaking of states doing nothing.

2195
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:09,640
Speaker 3: At this time, Byron is making his speech before the lords,

2196
02:15:10,680 --> 02:15:16,000
Speaker 3: and in that speech last with sarcasm, of course, he

2197
02:15:16,160 --> 02:15:19,720
Speaker 3: was highlighting the benefits of automation, which he believe led

2198
02:15:19,760 --> 02:15:24,600
Speaker 3: to the production of inferior goods and unemployment. He concluded

2199
02:15:24,680 --> 02:15:28,280
Speaker 3: that the proposed law, the Frame Breaking Act of eighteen twelve,

2200
02:15:29,160 --> 02:15:34,600
Speaker 3: was only missing two crucial elements to be effective twelve

2201
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:38,200
Speaker 3: butchers for a jury and a Jeffries for a judge,

2202
02:15:38,760 --> 02:15:42,440
Speaker 3: which was a reference to George Jeffries, an infamous hanging

2203
02:15:42,560 --> 02:15:45,360
Speaker 3: judge known for his very harsh judgments.

2204
02:15:45,760 --> 02:15:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also mad that, like, but also not uncommon

2205
02:15:50,000 --> 02:15:54,640
Speaker 4: in this period that you are seeing like the leftmost

2206
02:15:54,800 --> 02:15:58,040
Speaker 4: political opinion being advanced within Parliament being advanced in the

2207
02:15:58,120 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 4: hereditary chamber, like the House of Law, Like.

2208
02:16:02,040 --> 02:16:11,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, as soon the the what's the word, the aristocratic, Yeah,

2209
02:16:12,200 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 3: the aristocratic realm is still you know, having to deal

2210
02:16:16,480 --> 02:16:16,640
Speaker 3: with this.

2211
02:16:17,520 --> 02:16:20,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very much tied to like a paternalism and

2212
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:23,040
Speaker 4: a sort of feudal attitude. But it's just it's just

2213
02:16:23,120 --> 02:16:28,080
Speaker 4: fascinating to see, like, and it does happen especially and

2214
02:16:28,160 --> 02:16:32,440
Speaker 4: I think also there's this a deep, deep disdain for

2215
02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:37,160
Speaker 4: new money. That is a powerfully British vibe that that

2216
02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:39,440
Speaker 4: comes especially from the House of Lords, right, like like this,

2217
02:16:39,920 --> 02:16:42,920
Speaker 4: like they don't identify with the bourgeoisie at all and

2218
02:16:43,200 --> 02:16:45,640
Speaker 4: fucking hate them because they're they're they're turning up at

2219
02:16:45,680 --> 02:16:47,720
Speaker 4: the country club or whatever.

2220
02:16:49,560 --> 02:16:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so it's so funny about a lot

2221
02:16:51,640 --> 02:16:54,160
Speaker 3: of old money. And I'm gonna say this, and I'm gonna,

2222
02:16:54,240 --> 02:16:56,840
Speaker 3: you know, give her contrack. What's so funny about the

2223
02:16:56,879 --> 02:16:58,800
Speaker 3: old money folks is that a lot of a lot

2224
02:16:58,800 --> 02:17:01,480
Speaker 3: of cases they don't even have of like as much

2225
02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:04,360
Speaker 3: money as the new money people. Yes, yeah, about money

2226
02:17:04,440 --> 02:17:07,560
Speaker 3: for them at this point, it's really just about linear

2227
02:17:07,720 --> 02:17:09,840
Speaker 3: and culture and whatever.

2228
02:17:10,560 --> 02:17:10,800
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2229
02:17:10,920 --> 02:17:14,400
Speaker 4: Like Britain's class thing is like it's almost like a

2230
02:17:14,560 --> 02:17:17,560
Speaker 4: caste system, Like your cast is your class is inherited

2231
02:17:17,600 --> 02:17:21,720
Speaker 4: regardless of your actual financial means. Like they're like lord

2232
02:17:21,800 --> 02:17:24,080
Speaker 4: living in a castle that he can't afford to heat is.

2233
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:26,840
Speaker 4: It's like a it's like a it's a trope for

2234
02:17:26,920 --> 02:17:28,279
Speaker 4: a reason in Britain, I guess.

2235
02:17:28,800 --> 02:17:29,560
Speaker 3: Indeed indeed.

2236
02:17:31,720 --> 02:17:31,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2237
02:17:32,280 --> 02:17:34,560
Speaker 3: But the passing of that Act, and in the years

2238
02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:38,480
Speaker 3: had followed, the Light Movement came to an end, but

2239
02:17:38,959 --> 02:17:43,720
Speaker 3: the actions left a lasting mark on the labor movement.

2240
02:17:44,879 --> 02:17:48,640
Speaker 3: There's tactics of collective action even though Clandestine laid the

2241
02:17:48,760 --> 02:17:53,560
Speaker 3: groundwork for future labor unions, demonstrating the power of organized resistance,

2242
02:17:54,959 --> 02:17:59,240
Speaker 3: defenders of their way of life. Reminders the technology, while

2243
02:17:59,320 --> 02:18:03,640
Speaker 3: transforming to it, can also disrupt lives and communities. The

2244
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 3: lights experiences, the lights experiences echo even today, you know,

2245
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:14,200
Speaker 3: in an era with the fear of technological unemployment, with

2246
02:18:14,320 --> 02:18:17,119
Speaker 3: discussions and the impact of automation and AI.

2247
02:18:18,959 --> 02:18:21,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

2248
02:18:21,480 --> 02:18:25,680
Speaker 3: Before he had said his infamous last words, John Booth

2249
02:18:26,080 --> 02:18:30,360
Speaker 3: also said that the new machinery might be man's chief

2250
02:18:30,560 --> 02:18:36,199
Speaker 3: lesson instead of his curse, if society were differently constituted.

2251
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:39,880
Speaker 3: In other ways, technology can either help common food or

2252
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:43,360
Speaker 3: harm them, depending on not just what the technology is,

2253
02:18:44,080 --> 02:18:46,920
Speaker 3: but also what society the technology develops with it.

2254
02:18:49,400 --> 02:18:50,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very true.

2255
02:18:52,120 --> 02:18:54,720
Speaker 3: So I'll leave you all with that for now, and

2256
02:18:55,240 --> 02:18:57,680
Speaker 3: next time will be shifting our focus to the present

2257
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:04,480
Speaker 3: day and examining how Bloodism's principles have been applied by

2258
02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:08,879
Speaker 3: movements of the twentieth and twenty first century.

2259
02:19:09,760 --> 02:19:10,000
Speaker 2: Cool.

2260
02:19:10,360 --> 02:19:14,560
Speaker 3: Nice, that's all for me. You can find me on YouTube.

2261
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:18,280
Speaker 3: Dot com slash Andrewism and support on Patreon dot com

2262
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:38,440
Speaker 3: slash Saint Drew this husband, it could happen here. Welcome

2263
02:19:38,480 --> 02:19:41,120
Speaker 3: back to it could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage and

2264
02:19:41,160 --> 02:19:43,959
Speaker 3: you can find my stuff on my YouTube channel, Andrewism.

2265
02:19:44,640 --> 02:19:45,959
Speaker 3: I'm joined once again.

2266
02:19:46,320 --> 02:19:50,960
Speaker 4: By James getting no less aw quid as we go

2267
02:19:51,400 --> 02:19:54,520
Speaker 4: behind Andrew, I'm excited to learn about what we're going

2268
02:19:54,560 --> 02:19:55,320
Speaker 4: to learn about today.

2269
02:19:56,040 --> 02:19:59,080
Speaker 3: Yes, we're picking up where we left off by tackling

2270
02:19:59,760 --> 02:20:03,680
Speaker 3: the bloodites of today. In our previous episode, we unravel

2271
02:20:03,720 --> 02:20:06,240
Speaker 3: the story of the Floodites who stood against the encroaching

2272
02:20:06,360 --> 02:20:10,560
Speaker 3: forces of the industrial revolution and more specifically, the abuses

2273
02:20:10,720 --> 02:20:14,120
Speaker 3: of workers by profit seeking capitalists. They were challenging the

2274
02:20:14,160 --> 02:20:16,880
Speaker 3: world view of lazier fair capitalism with this increase in

2275
02:20:16,959 --> 02:20:21,160
Speaker 3: amalgamation of power, resources, and wealth, rationalized by its emphasis

2276
02:20:21,360 --> 02:20:24,640
Speaker 3: on progress. Today, it seems this history as we have

2277
02:20:24,640 --> 02:20:27,360
Speaker 3: of repeating itself as we face a similar struggle against

2278
02:20:27,400 --> 02:20:30,880
Speaker 3: technological changes that come about to the detriment of workers.

2279
02:20:31,280 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 3: As some tech has been used by tech companies in

2280
02:20:33,640 --> 02:20:37,640
Speaker 3: various industries to drive down wages and worsen conditions for

2281
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:43,920
Speaker 3: common workers. Say, for example, technological unemployment. Theladites who once

2282
02:20:43,959 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 3: resisted the encroachment her machines would find their concerns reflected

2283
02:20:47,120 --> 02:20:50,360
Speaker 3: in our modern world. As a technological advancements often come

2284
02:20:50,400 --> 02:20:53,760
Speaker 3: with the cost of those whose jobs can be automated away.

2285
02:20:55,080 --> 02:20:59,119
Speaker 3: For instance, in the manufacturing industry, robots and automated assembly

2286
02:20:59,200 --> 02:21:02,680
Speaker 3: lines of streamline in production lead into increased efficiency and

2287
02:21:02,800 --> 02:21:06,280
Speaker 3: lower costs for companies, but these efficiencies often meant the

2288
02:21:06,320 --> 02:21:10,600
Speaker 3: displacement of human workers, and such as in manufacturing, the

2289
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:15,440
Speaker 3: ripple effects extend to various sectors like customer service, transportation,

2290
02:21:16,040 --> 02:21:20,039
Speaker 3: and data analysis, and so there's this fear of job

2291
02:21:20,160 --> 02:21:27,320
Speaker 3: displacement looms large. However, technological unemployment, which is the belief

2292
02:21:27,400 --> 02:21:31,520
Speaker 3: that as technology advances, human jobs are at risk potentially

2293
02:21:31,760 --> 02:21:37,560
Speaker 3: into widespread unemployment, has been described by some economists as

2294
02:21:37,720 --> 02:21:41,720
Speaker 3: a fallacy. Back in the early days of the Industrial Revolution,

2295
02:21:41,959 --> 02:21:45,800
Speaker 3: when the advance of mechanization began transforming various industries, and

2296
02:21:45,959 --> 02:21:48,560
Speaker 3: with workers fear and automation would render them job less

2297
02:21:48,920 --> 02:21:53,200
Speaker 3: and devalue their labor, the people took a stand, but

2298
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:57,200
Speaker 3: as time passed, new industries and job opportunities emerged to

2299
02:21:57,320 --> 02:22:01,279
Speaker 3: replace some of the old ones. Ultimately absorbing that workforce.

2300
02:22:02,360 --> 02:22:04,880
Speaker 3: Fast forward to the twentieth century and the rise of

2301
02:22:04,959 --> 02:22:10,240
Speaker 3: computers and automation technology reignited concerns about technological unemployment, but again,

2302
02:22:10,560 --> 02:22:14,000
Speaker 3: new jobs were created in new industries. Today, the debate

2303
02:22:14,120 --> 02:22:17,760
Speaker 3: continues as artificial intelligence, robotics, and automation advance at an

2304
02:22:17,879 --> 02:22:21,520
Speaker 3: unprecedented pace, and it remains to be seen what the

2305
02:22:21,680 --> 02:22:26,000
Speaker 3: long term consequences of those technologies may be. My position

2306
02:22:26,200 --> 02:22:29,080
Speaker 3: has really always been that we should be working less anyway,

2307
02:22:29,400 --> 02:22:32,280
Speaker 3: but instead people are obsessed with creating new jobs, even

2308
02:22:32,280 --> 02:22:35,720
Speaker 3: when they're unnecessary. See you know, of course, David Graber's

2309
02:22:35,800 --> 02:22:39,640
Speaker 3: bullshit jobs. But you know, even if the idea of

2310
02:22:39,840 --> 02:22:43,520
Speaker 3: mass unemployment due to tech is not true, if we

2311
02:22:43,720 --> 02:22:46,400
Speaker 3: end up replacing the jobs that are eraised with new jobs,

2312
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:50,120
Speaker 3: whatever the case may be, tech is nevertheless quite capable

2313
02:22:50,120 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 3: of destroying livelihoods, creating unintended consequences, and further concentrating power

2314
02:22:56,440 --> 02:23:00,640
Speaker 3: in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Tech advance

2315
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:04,360
Speaker 3: when it makes a job more fulfilling and enjoyable. They

2316
02:23:04,400 --> 02:23:06,640
Speaker 3: are also those who make it more tea us and grinding,

2317
02:23:07,320 --> 02:23:10,000
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, tech and free us from some tasks.

2318
02:23:10,440 --> 02:23:13,200
Speaker 3: You know, accountants have digital spreadsheets to make their lives

2319
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:16,640
Speaker 3: much easier. For example, writing is way easier now that

2320
02:23:16,720 --> 02:23:22,320
Speaker 3: the personal computers is more common. But while technological progress

2321
02:23:22,480 --> 02:23:26,320
Speaker 3: can produce prosperity, there's really no guarantee that the prosperity

2322
02:23:26,400 --> 02:23:29,920
Speaker 3: will reach the workers. In most cases on the capitalism,

2323
02:23:30,320 --> 02:23:34,040
Speaker 3: it very clearly doesn't. In fact, many of the benefits

2324
02:23:34,640 --> 02:23:37,920
Speaker 3: of the industrial revolution were really not felt by the

2325
02:23:38,000 --> 02:23:42,200
Speaker 3: workers until decades later, after many of them had been

2326
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:45,800
Speaker 3: you know, crushed or poisoned or killed or you know,

2327
02:23:46,160 --> 02:23:48,760
Speaker 3: died in a factory fire or whatever they shut down

2328
02:23:48,959 --> 02:23:51,400
Speaker 3: when protesting, you know, like that, they didn't see the

2329
02:23:51,400 --> 02:23:54,400
Speaker 3: benefits until much later on. You know, it's not like

2330
02:23:55,000 --> 02:23:57,600
Speaker 3: you know, these things introduced and boom, everybody benefits. I

2331
02:23:57,680 --> 02:24:02,400
Speaker 3: mean even now, not everybody in the world is benefiting

2332
02:24:02,560 --> 02:24:07,039
Speaker 3: from you know, the computer age. There are still many people,

2333
02:24:07,720 --> 02:24:13,560
Speaker 3: like for example, in the Congo, who are endurance slavery

2334
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:17,560
Speaker 3: and slave like conditions in order to you know, procure

2335
02:24:17,560 --> 02:24:21,200
Speaker 3: the materials necessary for the computer age totally, and yet

2336
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:24,760
Speaker 3: they're not seeing those benefits and arranged we're scene when

2337
02:24:24,800 --> 02:24:28,200
Speaker 3: they'll see the benefits that many of us enjoy in

2338
02:24:28,320 --> 02:24:31,560
Speaker 3: various parts of the world, and particularly that there was

2339
02:24:31,680 --> 02:24:36,440
Speaker 3: enjoy in the global North. In our relentless pursuit of

2340
02:24:36,760 --> 02:24:41,959
Speaker 3: progress and technological advancement as defined by capitalism, we also

2341
02:24:42,040 --> 02:24:45,920
Speaker 3: end up losing our nature, our community, and in many

2342
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:50,240
Speaker 3: cases are craftsmanship. I mean, I remember John Booth, the

2343
02:24:50,320 --> 02:24:52,440
Speaker 3: one who had said can you keep a secret? Or

2344
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:55,840
Speaker 3: so can I? Yes? Other words, you know that the

2345
02:24:55,879 --> 02:24:59,600
Speaker 3: new machinery, right, Beman's chief blessing in Surface Curse. It's

2346
02:24:59,640 --> 02:25:02,600
Speaker 3: a side he were differently constituted. That's where I have

2347
02:25:02,680 --> 02:25:06,600
Speaker 3: to bring in the one and only the ls I've

2348
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:09,880
Speaker 3: spoken about him before, of course, the Austrian philosopher, the

2349
02:25:09,920 --> 02:25:13,720
Speaker 3: theologia and the sort of everything Guy ivan Ilich.

2350
02:25:14,720 --> 02:25:16,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, fun times, fun times.

2351
02:25:16,879 --> 02:25:19,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. He was a thinker ahead of his time. You know,

2352
02:25:19,800 --> 02:25:22,160
Speaker 3: it's really strange in some of his positions, I think,

2353
02:25:23,879 --> 02:25:28,480
Speaker 3: but a lot of his concepts resonate today in various movements.

2354
02:25:29,240 --> 02:25:33,200
Speaker 3: In fact, one of the foundational concepts in the modern

2355
02:25:33,280 --> 02:25:37,240
Speaker 3: movement of the growth is the concept of conviviality, which

2356
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:43,640
Speaker 3: was redefined and introduced in the context of our tools

2357
02:25:44,440 --> 02:25:50,279
Speaker 3: in Elisio's book Tools of Conviviality. Eligious vision as explored

2358
02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:53,280
Speaker 3: by the book is one in which technology sales humanity,

2359
02:25:53,720 --> 02:25:58,960
Speaker 3: not supplant it. We had convivial tools empowered individuals and communities,

2360
02:25:59,440 --> 02:26:02,920
Speaker 3: fostering creativity and autonomy while preventing the concentration of power

2361
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 3: in the hands of the few. According to Ilig, conviviality

2362
02:26:07,760 --> 02:26:13,080
Speaker 3: is individual freedom realized in personal interdependence. It's basically the

2363
02:26:13,120 --> 02:26:17,480
Speaker 3: ability of individuals to interact and to interact creatively and

2364
02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:21,280
Speaker 3: autonomously with others and the environment to satisfy their individual

2365
02:26:21,400 --> 02:26:25,560
Speaker 3: and collective needs. Convivial tools, or those which are robust

2366
02:26:25,640 --> 02:26:30,359
Speaker 3: and durable, preserve or enhance ecosystems, level unequal power relationships,

2367
02:26:30,640 --> 02:26:33,560
Speaker 3: and give each person who uses them the greatest opportunity

2368
02:26:33,600 --> 02:26:36,080
Speaker 3: to enrich the environment with the fruits of their vision.

2369
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:39,920
Speaker 3: And a convivial society is one in which tools, which

2370
02:26:40,040 --> 02:26:44,959
Speaker 3: according to Lag includes physical hardware, productive institutions, and productive systems,

2371
02:26:45,520 --> 02:26:52,600
Speaker 3: so tools will be factories, hospitals, schools, farms. All of

2372
02:26:52,720 --> 02:26:55,160
Speaker 3: those things are being included in his definition of tools,

2373
02:26:55,840 --> 02:26:57,959
Speaker 3: and a convivial society is one of which those tools

2374
02:26:58,040 --> 02:27:01,720
Speaker 3: operate on the humans scale and save the people instead

2375
02:27:01,920 --> 02:27:06,240
Speaker 3: of rulers. The idea of configual tools really challenges us

2376
02:27:06,320 --> 02:27:08,440
Speaker 3: to a few technology as a means to enhance our

2377
02:27:08,560 --> 02:27:11,920
Speaker 3: lives rather than displace our livelihoods. It's a call to

2378
02:27:12,200 --> 02:27:15,240
Speaker 3: harness innovation for the bettend of society instead of the

2379
02:27:15,280 --> 02:27:20,760
Speaker 3: perpetuation of radical monopolies, which I spoke about in a

2380
02:27:20,840 --> 02:27:24,480
Speaker 3: previous it could happen here episode. I think a Lodites

2381
02:27:24,680 --> 02:27:29,440
Speaker 3: like John Booth would have certainly appreciated that message.

2382
02:27:29,840 --> 02:27:31,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, and to the rights of.

2383
02:27:31,840 --> 02:27:36,560
Speaker 3: Today certainly do because yeah, I'm not the first nor

2384
02:27:36,640 --> 02:27:39,360
Speaker 3: the only person to see lessons to be learned from

2385
02:27:39,400 --> 02:27:43,320
Speaker 3: the La Lite movement. The concept of a Neolodite movement

2386
02:27:43,640 --> 02:27:46,200
Speaker 3: has been embraced by a variety of folks who may

2387
02:27:46,480 --> 02:27:50,560
Speaker 3: or may not understand what the original Ledite movement was about. Like,

2388
02:27:50,800 --> 02:27:53,560
Speaker 3: you know, you have these primitivists who embrace the Neoloodite

2389
02:27:53,600 --> 02:27:56,320
Speaker 3: cause because I think it means hate and technology, and

2390
02:27:56,440 --> 02:27:59,759
Speaker 3: you have the anarchists and the trade unionists and the environmentalists.

2391
02:28:00,160 --> 02:28:02,280
Speaker 3: We're looking more at the label, organized and roots of

2392
02:28:02,280 --> 02:28:06,000
Speaker 3: the original Latite movement, and of course even see echoes

2393
02:28:06,080 --> 02:28:11,320
Speaker 3: of Ogloodite action in the vandalism against self driving cars.

2394
02:28:12,160 --> 02:28:12,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

2395
02:28:14,040 --> 02:28:19,280
Speaker 3: The Neolodite movement is composed of activists, workers, scholars, and

2396
02:28:19,360 --> 02:28:22,959
Speaker 3: social critics who stand against the predominant worldview that unbridled

2397
02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:27,400
Speaker 3: technology represents progress, point ins key, then critiques, and in

2398
02:28:27,520 --> 02:28:31,200
Speaker 3: some cases actual action against technologies and tech companies that

2399
02:28:31,320 --> 02:28:36,360
Speaker 3: desecrate our planet and our society. Philosopher Lewis Mumford, who

2400
02:28:36,520 --> 02:28:39,760
Speaker 3: had written the Myth of the Machine Pentagonic Power, reminds

2401
02:28:39,879 --> 02:28:43,880
Speaker 3: us that technology and compasses more than just physical objects.

2402
02:28:44,360 --> 02:28:47,240
Speaker 3: It also includes the techniques of operation and the social

2403
02:28:47,360 --> 02:28:53,320
Speaker 3: organizations that make up particular technology work. Technology reflects our worldview.

2404
02:28:54,280 --> 02:28:57,200
Speaker 3: The forms of technology we embrace, whether they be machines, techniques,

2405
02:28:57,240 --> 02:29:01,080
Speaker 3: or social structures, are seeply roots in our perception of life, death,

2406
02:29:01,400 --> 02:29:05,560
Speaker 3: human potential, and the relationships between humans and nature. Our

2407
02:29:05,680 --> 02:29:09,560
Speaker 3: choice of technology, in many ways, mirrors our outlook on

2408
02:29:09,640 --> 02:29:13,080
Speaker 3: the world. That outlook in the modern world is shaped

2409
02:29:13,120 --> 02:29:19,759
Speaker 3: by a rather mechanistic approach to life, characterized by rational thinking, efficiency, utilitarianism,

2410
02:29:20,160 --> 02:29:24,000
Speaker 3: scientific detachment, and a belief in humanities, ownership and supremacy

2411
02:29:24,120 --> 02:29:26,680
Speaker 3: over nature. That's how the end of getting texts like

2412
02:29:26,720 --> 02:29:32,240
Speaker 3: the Military Industrial Complex and they were and sprawl. Honestly,

2413
02:29:32,680 --> 02:29:36,640
Speaker 3: in a sense, the old lites kind of had it easy.

2414
02:29:38,480 --> 02:29:38,520
Speaker 8: Not.

2415
02:29:38,840 --> 02:29:42,480
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously their conditions were horrible. When I say

2416
02:29:42,600 --> 02:29:44,080
Speaker 3: they had it easy, I mean it's in the sense

2417
02:29:44,160 --> 02:29:47,439
Speaker 3: that their machines could be destroyed by their sledgehammers.

2418
02:29:47,959 --> 02:29:48,400
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah.

2419
02:29:48,640 --> 02:29:52,800
Speaker 3: Our technology is a lot more ephemoral. You know, it's

2420
02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:57,279
Speaker 3: in the cloud. It's as nebulous as microplastics in the soil,

2421
02:29:57,360 --> 02:29:59,959
Speaker 3: the water, and the breast milk. I mean, it's everywhere,

2422
02:30:00,160 --> 02:30:02,040
Speaker 3: and it's integrated into everything. It's like, where do you

2423
02:30:02,040 --> 02:30:02,520
Speaker 3: even begin?

2424
02:30:03,280 --> 02:30:03,480
Speaker 6: Yeah?

2425
02:30:03,560 --> 02:30:03,760
Speaker 4: Wow.

2426
02:30:05,959 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 3: In the book When Technology Wounds by Psychologists Chellish Clendening

2427
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:16,800
Speaker 3: by psychologists Chellis Clendening, she studied technology survivors, people who

2428
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:19,800
Speaker 3: had suffered injury or illness in recent years after being

2429
02:30:19,879 --> 02:30:23,840
Speaker 3: exposed to various toxic technologies in their homes and workplaces,

2430
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:30,040
Speaker 3: whether nuclear radiation, pesticides, asbestos, both control devices, or drugs,

2431
02:30:30,600 --> 02:30:32,440
Speaker 3: and covered how they had begun to question not only

2432
02:30:32,520 --> 02:30:36,880
Speaker 3: the processes that maimed them, but the world that indifferently

2433
02:30:37,080 --> 02:30:40,920
Speaker 3: forced those processes on them under the guise of progress.

2434
02:30:43,080 --> 02:30:45,560
Speaker 3: Glendening saw these victims as the basis of a new

2435
02:30:45,640 --> 02:30:49,160
Speaker 3: Bloodite movement struggling against what has been called the Second

2436
02:30:49,280 --> 02:30:53,879
Speaker 3: Industrial What has been called the Second Industrial Revolution alongside

2437
02:30:53,879 --> 02:30:58,280
Speaker 3: thinkers like Lewis Mumford and Ivan Ilich. Those survivors have

2438
02:30:58,360 --> 02:31:00,680
Speaker 3: gone on to create groups such as as Those Victims

2439
02:31:00,720 --> 02:31:03,440
Speaker 3: of America as part of ME, Victims of Their Friends,

2440
02:31:03,879 --> 02:31:08,680
Speaker 3: Citizens Against Pesticide Misuse, DALK and Shield Information Network, des Action,

2441
02:31:08,800 --> 02:31:13,000
Speaker 3: and National National Association of Atomic Veterans, National Committee for

2442
02:31:13,080 --> 02:31:17,879
Speaker 3: Victims of Human Research, National Toxics Campaign, and the VDT Coalition.

2443
02:31:18,560 --> 02:31:20,360
Speaker 3: All of these, of course are based in the US,

2444
02:31:21,400 --> 02:31:23,480
Speaker 3: and there are also actives groups like earth First that

2445
02:31:23,680 --> 02:31:28,560
Speaker 3: could have been classified under the Neololte cause and Earthful

2446
02:31:28,600 --> 02:31:32,039
Speaker 3: strategy was to stop environmental intrusions by any means available,

2447
02:31:32,440 --> 02:31:36,320
Speaker 3: legal and otherwise. So they will be slashing engines, slashing tires,

2448
02:31:36,400 --> 02:31:41,359
Speaker 3: disabling engines, blocking roads. Most famously, they would drilled spikes

2449
02:31:41,360 --> 02:31:44,240
Speaker 3: into trees and wilderness forests to prevent them from being

2450
02:31:44,320 --> 02:31:45,599
Speaker 3: logged by chainsaws.

2451
02:31:45,879 --> 02:31:46,080
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2452
02:31:49,040 --> 02:31:51,640
Speaker 3: But you know, while all these movements and organizations are

2453
02:31:51,640 --> 02:31:53,840
Speaker 3: happening in the Western world, it really wasn't just the

2454
02:31:53,920 --> 02:31:57,600
Speaker 3: Western world where this has happening. A positive undercurrent of

2455
02:31:57,640 --> 02:32:01,400
Speaker 3: the right spirit has surged where indigenous peoples have led

2456
02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:04,959
Speaker 3: the charges against the incursions of industrialism. Quncies of mainly

2457
02:32:05,040 --> 02:32:08,600
Speaker 3: resisting the machines and projects for industrialization, but also pushing

2458
02:32:08,640 --> 02:32:12,800
Speaker 3: back against its cultural impact. Peasants and farmers staunchly rejecting

2459
02:32:12,879 --> 02:32:16,720
Speaker 3: participation in the various development initiatives imposed upon them by

2460
02:32:16,760 --> 02:32:21,200
Speaker 3: compliant governments, often under the influence of entities like the

2461
02:32:21,280 --> 02:32:25,800
Speaker 3: World Bank or the US State Department. For example, during

2462
02:32:25,840 --> 02:32:28,880
Speaker 3: the early nineteen eighties, some farmers in Mali took a

2463
02:32:29,000 --> 02:32:32,000
Speaker 3: stand against the construction of dams and dykes for a

2464
02:32:32,080 --> 02:32:35,680
Speaker 3: rice growing program that they wanted no part of. Other

2465
02:32:35,760 --> 02:32:39,039
Speaker 3: communities elsewhere have rallied to hold dam projects that threatened

2466
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:42,519
Speaker 3: to submerge the ancestral lands, and some of them successful,

2467
02:32:42,920 --> 02:32:46,119
Speaker 3: as seen of the villagers who protested the Narmada Dam

2468
02:32:46,240 --> 02:32:49,080
Speaker 3: in India and the early nineteen nineties, and others have

2469
02:32:49,200 --> 02:32:52,640
Speaker 3: faced more daunting challenges, like the people of eastern Java

2470
02:32:52,680 --> 02:32:56,520
Speaker 3: who protested against the Neper Irrigation Dam and faced deadly

2471
02:32:56,680 --> 02:33:00,360
Speaker 3: consequences at the hands of Indonesian security forces in nineteen

2472
02:33:00,400 --> 02:33:06,120
Speaker 3: ninety three. Yeah interous tribes have also organized to combat

2473
02:33:06,200 --> 02:33:09,959
Speaker 3: deforestation and road building projects that encroached upon their territories.

2474
02:33:10,600 --> 02:33:13,400
Speaker 3: The Chipco tree Huggan movement in India during the nineteen

2475
02:33:13,440 --> 02:33:17,440
Speaker 3: seventies and eighties famously succeeded in stopping government clear cutting efforts,

2476
02:33:17,959 --> 02:33:20,960
Speaker 3: and similar projects have echoed across the globe, from Malaysia

2477
02:33:21,040 --> 02:33:25,160
Speaker 3: to Australia, Brazil to Costa Rica, Solomon Islands, Indonesia and beyond.

2478
02:33:26,760 --> 02:33:31,480
Speaker 3: Traditional fishermen in many regions, such as the Indians of continent, Malaysia, Indonesia,

2479
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:34,240
Speaker 3: and multiple ports along the Pacific coast of South America,

2480
02:33:34,560 --> 02:33:37,960
Speaker 3: including Ecuador and Columbia, have also taken action against industrial

2481
02:33:38,000 --> 02:33:41,640
Speaker 3: fishing fleets encroaching on their waters and jeopardizing their livelihoods.

2482
02:33:42,240 --> 02:33:44,440
Speaker 3: In some cases, these protests may have involved the destruction

2483
02:33:44,520 --> 02:33:47,680
Speaker 3: of machinery, but sabotage, you know, is not unheard of,

2484
02:33:47,959 --> 02:33:49,800
Speaker 3: like in the case of a high tech chemical plant

2485
02:33:49,879 --> 02:33:54,280
Speaker 3: in Thailand in nineteen eighty six. The driving force behind

2486
02:33:54,360 --> 02:33:58,080
Speaker 3: these actions really mirrors to ethos you know, as they

2487
02:33:58,080 --> 02:34:00,520
Speaker 3: share this full un desire to preserve the ways of

2488
02:34:00,560 --> 02:34:04,080
Speaker 3: life and livelihood in the face of industrial capitalisms, relentless

2489
02:34:04,160 --> 02:34:07,920
Speaker 3: pull towards a wage and market system. And then, of course,

2490
02:34:08,440 --> 02:34:12,440
Speaker 3: outside these movers and shakers, these onderground activists, there are

2491
02:34:12,520 --> 02:34:16,560
Speaker 3: also you know, the philosophical litites like the aforementioned illage.

2492
02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:23,040
Speaker 3: The neololite spectrum is more diverse and intriguing than one

2493
02:34:23,080 --> 02:34:26,600
Speaker 3: might imagine. While it may not have crystallized into a

2494
02:34:26,720 --> 02:34:30,560
Speaker 3: more formal movement with clear representatives, as is expected of

2495
02:34:30,600 --> 02:34:34,560
Speaker 3: movements these days, it unites a wide array of individuals

2496
02:34:34,600 --> 02:34:38,400
Speaker 3: to share common awakening from the allure of unchecked technology

2497
02:34:38,879 --> 02:34:44,880
Speaker 3: and resist various aspects of the industrial monoculture. Perhaps of

2498
02:34:44,920 --> 02:34:47,440
Speaker 3: the connections between these separate groups strengthen we'd see a

2499
02:34:47,480 --> 02:34:52,280
Speaker 3: greater recognition of the interconnected challenges in this grand tapestry

2500
02:34:52,320 --> 02:34:55,560
Speaker 3: of all evolving world. But the thing is to address

2501
02:34:55,600 --> 02:34:58,520
Speaker 3: the challenges posed by these technologies. It's not enough to

2502
02:34:58,560 --> 02:35:03,000
Speaker 3: merely regulate orti vidual items like pesticides or nuclear weapons.

2503
02:35:03,879 --> 02:35:06,160
Speaker 3: What's required is a profound shift in our thinking about

2504
02:35:06,240 --> 02:35:10,600
Speaker 3: humanity and in our relationship to life itself. We need

2505
02:35:10,680 --> 02:35:14,560
Speaker 3: to craft a new worldview that paves the way for

2506
02:35:14,640 --> 02:35:17,359
Speaker 3: a different way of interacting with our world, our technologies,

2507
02:35:17,680 --> 02:35:21,720
Speaker 3: and our felt human beings. We need to reconsider our

2508
02:35:21,800 --> 02:35:23,680
Speaker 3: place in the ground scheme of things and to imagine

2509
02:35:23,720 --> 02:35:28,000
Speaker 3: a world where harmony and balance take precedence of predomination

2510
02:35:28,160 --> 02:35:33,440
Speaker 3: and control. In notes toward a Neulrite Manifesto written in

2511
02:35:33,520 --> 02:35:37,840
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety, also by Chelli's Clendoning. The author outlines three

2512
02:35:38,120 --> 02:35:42,240
Speaker 3: core principles and four prescriptions that could drive the Neulrite movement.

2513
02:35:43,120 --> 02:35:45,880
Speaker 3: In terms of principles, firstly, and I suppose most essentially

2514
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:52,080
Speaker 3: to addressing the misconception, Neulorites are not anti technology. Actually

2515
02:35:52,080 --> 02:35:56,160
Speaker 3: says technology is intrinsic to human creativity and culture. But

2516
02:35:56,280 --> 02:35:58,400
Speaker 3: what they oppose are the kinds of technologies that are

2517
02:35:58,480 --> 02:36:03,720
Speaker 3: at root destructive of human lives and communities. The next

2518
02:36:03,760 --> 02:36:09,200
Speaker 3: principle two is that all technologies are political. Quote a

2519
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:13,360
Speaker 3: social critic Gerrymander rights in four argumented Elimination of Television,

2520
02:36:14,000 --> 02:36:15,880
Speaker 3: a book I read some years ago, by the way

2521
02:36:15,920 --> 02:36:20,200
Speaker 3: that a premedians revisit. But continuing the quote, technologies are

2522
02:36:20,280 --> 02:36:22,560
Speaker 3: not neutral tools that can be used for good or

2523
02:36:22,640 --> 02:36:25,640
Speaker 3: evil dependent on who uses them. They are entities that

2524
02:36:25,720 --> 02:36:29,320
Speaker 3: have been consciously structured to reflect and serve specific, powerful

2525
02:36:29,360 --> 02:36:33,720
Speaker 3: interests in specific historical situations. The technology is created by

2526
02:36:33,760 --> 02:36:37,080
Speaker 3: mass technological society. Are those that serve the perpetuation of

2527
02:36:37,160 --> 02:36:39,920
Speaker 3: mass technological society. They tend to be structured for short

2528
02:36:39,959 --> 02:36:44,760
Speaker 3: term efficiency ease of production, distribution, marketing and profit potential,

2529
02:36:45,320 --> 02:36:48,240
Speaker 3: or for warmaking. As a result, they tend to create

2530
02:36:48,320 --> 02:36:51,879
Speaker 3: rigid social systems and institutions that people do not understand

2531
02:36:52,400 --> 02:36:57,600
Speaker 3: and cannot change or control. The last principle three is

2532
02:36:57,640 --> 02:37:02,520
Speaker 3: that the poisonal view of technology is dangers limited. Glendoning

2533
02:37:02,680 --> 02:37:05,880
Speaker 3: argues that the often hood message, but I couldn't live

2534
02:37:05,959 --> 02:37:10,000
Speaker 3: without my word processor, because of course she's writing this,

2535
02:37:10,400 --> 02:37:12,000
Speaker 3: you know, years and years ago.

2536
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:15,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I have my word my automatic typewriter.

2537
02:37:16,360 --> 02:37:19,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. But this oftenhood message that I couldn't live up

2538
02:37:19,800 --> 02:37:21,880
Speaker 3: my word processor, and I guess you could substitute that

2539
02:37:22,000 --> 02:37:27,679
Speaker 3: for smartphone or computer. That message denies the wider consequences

2540
02:37:27,720 --> 02:37:31,600
Speaker 3: of widespread use of computers, for example, the toxic contamination

2541
02:37:31,680 --> 02:37:35,199
Speaker 3: of workers electronic plants, or the certifying of corporate power

2542
02:37:35,280 --> 02:37:39,600
Speaker 3: through exclusive access to new information and databases. As Manda

2543
02:37:39,879 --> 02:37:44,840
Speaker 3: points out, producers and disseminators of technologies tend to introduce

2544
02:37:44,879 --> 02:37:50,240
Speaker 3: their creations and upbeat utopian terms. You know, pesticides will

2545
02:37:50,280 --> 02:37:53,480
Speaker 3: increase yields to feed a hungry planet, nuclear energy will

2546
02:37:53,480 --> 02:37:56,960
Speaker 3: be too deep, too cheap to meter, et cetera. And

2547
02:37:57,080 --> 02:37:58,440
Speaker 3: of course you know you have to throw in that

2548
02:37:59,600 --> 02:38:04,160
Speaker 3: that potshot at nuclear energy. It's very very twentieth century

2549
02:38:04,240 --> 02:38:10,039
Speaker 3: coded text. Yeah, however, quote learning to critique technology demands

2550
02:38:10,080 --> 02:38:14,680
Speaker 3: fully examining its sociological context, economic gratifications, and political meanings.

2551
02:38:15,320 --> 02:38:17,840
Speaker 3: It involves asking not just what is gained, for what

2552
02:38:18,000 --> 02:38:20,360
Speaker 3: is lost and by whom. It involves looking at the

2553
02:38:20,400 --> 02:38:23,040
Speaker 3: instruct introduction of technologies from the perspective not only a

2554
02:38:23,080 --> 02:38:25,959
Speaker 3: few in use, but of the impact in other living beings,

2555
02:38:26,360 --> 02:38:32,200
Speaker 3: natural systems, and the environment. And then there's the neolodide program,

2556
02:38:32,320 --> 02:38:34,720
Speaker 3: which loses me a bit at some points, even where

2557
02:38:34,720 --> 02:38:38,240
Speaker 3: I may agree with some of their principles, and you know,

2558
02:38:38,680 --> 02:38:41,160
Speaker 3: you might say that's a sign of my propagandized mind

2559
02:38:41,280 --> 02:38:45,440
Speaker 3: in our technological society. But I'll leave you to be

2560
02:38:45,480 --> 02:38:51,080
Speaker 3: the judge of that. Here's what Glendening explicitly proposes one

2561
02:38:51,800 --> 02:38:54,040
Speaker 3: as I moved toward dealing with the consequences of modern

2562
02:38:54,080 --> 02:38:57,360
Speaker 3: technologies and preventing further destruction of life, the New Lotte

2563
02:38:57,360 --> 02:39:01,879
Speaker 3: movement should favor the dismantling of nuclear technology, chemical technologies,

2564
02:39:02,320 --> 02:39:10,440
Speaker 3: genetic engineering technologies, television, electuro wagnetic technologies, and computer technologies, which,

2565
02:39:10,520 --> 02:39:13,440
Speaker 3: according to them, you know, according to her course, disease

2566
02:39:13,480 --> 02:39:17,520
Speaker 3: and death, create dangerous me to gens in case of television,

2567
02:39:17,640 --> 02:39:23,720
Speaker 3: functions as a centralized mind, controlling force, poisons the environment,

2568
02:39:23,800 --> 02:39:25,360
Speaker 3: all these different things. And I mean I gets some

2569
02:39:25,400 --> 02:39:27,960
Speaker 3: of the justifications for some of these technologies, right, yeah,

2570
02:39:28,320 --> 02:39:34,960
Speaker 3: of course, disease, death, you know, pollution, social issues, right yeah,

2571
02:39:35,080 --> 02:39:37,119
Speaker 3: But I at same time, I don't believe in through

2572
02:39:37,160 --> 02:39:40,400
Speaker 3: and out entire sciences and technologies. Who will see like that,

2573
02:39:40,560 --> 02:39:43,440
Speaker 3: you know, it feels like it feels like a very

2574
02:39:43,720 --> 02:39:46,200
Speaker 3: myopic view being presented on some of these texts.

2575
02:39:46,800 --> 02:39:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I guess this was before really the

2576
02:39:50,160 --> 02:39:54,000
Speaker 4: decentralization of some of the means of dissemination of information

2577
02:39:54,400 --> 02:39:57,320
Speaker 4: that happened kind of later on with things like some

2578
02:39:57,480 --> 02:39:59,000
Speaker 4: parts of the Internet. I don't want to say by

2579
02:39:59,040 --> 02:40:02,880
Speaker 4: any means of the Internet decentralized, but at least the

2580
02:40:03,000 --> 02:40:06,080
Speaker 4: promise of that which we occasionally see deliver as well. Right,

2581
02:40:06,280 --> 02:40:09,480
Speaker 4: Like if you saw today that I was just watching

2582
02:40:09,520 --> 02:40:12,800
Speaker 4: a video of the Yeppe Gay in Syria that the

2583
02:40:12,959 --> 02:40:17,680
Speaker 4: people in Rojaba like talking about the importance of women

2584
02:40:17,720 --> 02:40:22,000
Speaker 4: in the revolution in Myanmar, and like just occasionally the

2585
02:40:22,120 --> 02:40:24,640
Speaker 4: internet or technology gives us the thing they were supposed

2586
02:40:24,640 --> 02:40:29,000
Speaker 4: to give us this ability to connect without barriers. Absolutely,

2587
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:33,080
Speaker 4: but yeah, like you said that that's the computer or

2588
02:40:33,120 --> 02:40:34,920
Speaker 4: the cell phone and that was recorded on or whatever

2589
02:40:35,000 --> 02:40:39,280
Speaker 4: happened because somebody, somebody in the congo and in horrific

2590
02:40:39,360 --> 02:40:43,039
Speaker 4: conditions and the DC had to dig out some rare

2591
02:40:43,080 --> 02:40:45,520
Speaker 4: earth chemical and then got paid next to nothing and

2592
02:40:46,440 --> 02:40:50,400
Speaker 4: their ancestral homeland was ruined by some rabid company that

2593
02:40:50,640 --> 02:40:52,680
Speaker 4: makes billions of dollars and pays people like shit.

2594
02:40:53,840 --> 02:40:57,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So, I mean, I absolutely agree that the

2595
02:40:57,400 --> 02:41:01,760
Speaker 3: supply side of a lot of these technologies to change drastically,

2596
02:41:02,520 --> 02:41:04,720
Speaker 3: and also the you know, just the supply chain as

2597
02:41:04,720 --> 02:41:07,800
Speaker 3: a whole, you know, from the raw materials to the

2598
02:41:07,840 --> 02:41:11,560
Speaker 3: finished product and how it gets to us. I mean,

2599
02:41:11,640 --> 02:41:14,400
Speaker 3: that might mean no more of certain technologies, or it

2600
02:41:14,480 --> 02:41:17,240
Speaker 3: might mean a different approach, but it really remains to

2601
02:41:17,280 --> 02:41:21,600
Speaker 3: be seen. We really haven't tried other approaches because you know,

2602
02:41:21,680 --> 02:41:25,360
Speaker 3: we live under this capitalist hegemony. The next step in

2603
02:41:25,400 --> 02:41:29,480
Speaker 3: the program to the New Write movement should favor a

2604
02:41:29,520 --> 02:41:32,760
Speaker 3: search for new technological forms and the creation of technologies

2605
02:41:32,800 --> 02:41:36,640
Speaker 3: by the people directly involved in their use, not by scientists,

2606
02:41:36,760 --> 02:41:40,680
Speaker 3: engineers and entrepreneurs who gain financially from mass production and

2607
02:41:40,720 --> 02:41:43,280
Speaker 3: distribution of the inventions, and who know little about the

2608
02:41:43,320 --> 02:41:47,119
Speaker 3: context in which their technologies are used. I don't necessarily

2609
02:41:47,160 --> 02:41:49,680
Speaker 3: believe in, you know, splitting it down the middle like that,

2610
02:41:49,920 --> 02:41:52,920
Speaker 3: as if you know, scientists and engineers are not going

2611
02:41:52,959 --> 02:41:54,520
Speaker 3: to be the people that are directly involved in their use.

2612
02:41:54,520 --> 02:41:58,080
Speaker 3: And in some cases that's true. But another case is,

2613
02:41:58,879 --> 02:42:01,000
Speaker 3: you know, you know, people who are using the pros

2614
02:42:01,080 --> 02:42:03,800
Speaker 3: sometimes the people who invented it, yeah, iterated on it

2615
02:42:03,879 --> 02:42:04,360
Speaker 3: and whatnot.

2616
02:42:04,720 --> 02:42:07,920
Speaker 4: Like when I think about before there were three D

2617
02:42:08,000 --> 02:42:10,600
Speaker 4: printing weapons in the revolution in the amber, they were

2618
02:42:10,640 --> 02:42:15,320
Speaker 4: three D printing presteses because land minds are so common there, right,

2619
02:42:15,680 --> 02:42:17,960
Speaker 4: and so like for those people where the engineer is

2620
02:42:18,000 --> 02:42:21,000
Speaker 4: a person whose brother or sister or non binary sibling

2621
02:42:21,160 --> 02:42:24,120
Speaker 4: or what have you needs a leg and so they

2622
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:27,039
Speaker 4: have iterated or designed a leg, and like that person

2623
02:42:27,240 --> 02:42:30,280
Speaker 4: is very much both like benefiting from the end use

2624
02:42:30,480 --> 02:42:32,840
Speaker 4: and doing the engineering exactly.

2625
02:42:33,120 --> 02:42:35,200
Speaker 3: I get this is kind of like, you know, a

2626
02:42:35,320 --> 02:42:38,840
Speaker 3: screed against the Ivory tower types. But yes, I don't

2627
02:42:38,879 --> 02:42:42,560
Speaker 3: think that reflects on you know, all of the or

2628
02:42:42,600 --> 02:42:46,360
Speaker 3: even most of the scientists and engineers. A lot of

2629
02:42:46,440 --> 02:42:51,400
Speaker 3: engineers on the ground a lot of you know, barefoot scientists,

2630
02:42:52,400 --> 02:42:53,400
Speaker 3: as the expression is.

2631
02:42:53,920 --> 02:42:56,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Nick, when we talk about things like permaculture

2632
02:42:57,080 --> 02:42:59,520
Speaker 4: or the things we talked about before, like, some of

2633
02:42:59,600 --> 02:43:02,000
Speaker 4: that is a science too, right. We have a thesis

2634
02:43:02,040 --> 02:43:03,880
Speaker 4: and we test it and we prove it, and then

2635
02:43:04,120 --> 02:43:06,920
Speaker 4: we keep iterating on it like it's a hypothesis, I

2636
02:43:06,959 --> 02:43:09,880
Speaker 4: should say, Like, and that's certainly a science which is

2637
02:43:09,959 --> 02:43:13,000
Speaker 4: rooted in a place and people and respect for the environment.

2638
02:43:13,879 --> 02:43:18,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the manifesto goes a little bit further

2639
02:43:18,480 --> 02:43:21,640
Speaker 3: on this particular point. You know, she's advocating for the

2640
02:43:21,680 --> 02:43:24,080
Speaker 3: creation of technologies that are of a scale and structure

2641
02:43:24,120 --> 02:43:26,360
Speaker 3: that makes them understandable to the people who use them

2642
02:43:26,400 --> 02:43:29,200
Speaker 3: and are affected by them. She's advocating for the creation

2643
02:43:29,240 --> 02:43:31,599
Speaker 3: of technology is built with a high degree of flexibility,

2644
02:43:32,000 --> 02:43:33,640
Speaker 3: so that you do want to impose a rigid and

2645
02:43:33,720 --> 02:43:36,880
Speaker 3: irrasible imprint on their users. And she's advocating for the

2646
02:43:36,920 --> 02:43:40,840
Speaker 3: creation technologies are foster independence from technological addiction and promise

2647
02:43:40,879 --> 02:43:47,720
Speaker 3: political freedom, economic justice, and ecological balance. They are I can't.

2648
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:50,280
Speaker 4: Disagree, you know, Yeah, I know, I'm down with that.

2649
02:43:51,160 --> 02:43:56,200
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely down with advocating for that. Yeah, the third

2650
02:43:56,240 --> 02:44:00,560
Speaker 3: point in the program, She says, we feel creation of

2651
02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:06,280
Speaker 3: technologies in which politics, morality, ecology, and technics are merged

2652
02:44:06,320 --> 02:44:09,800
Speaker 3: for the benefits of life on Earth. For example, community

2653
02:44:09,840 --> 02:44:14,560
Speaker 3: based energy sources utilizing solar, wind and waters technologies, organic

2654
02:44:14,760 --> 02:44:20,160
Speaker 3: biological technologies and agriculture, engineering, architecture, art, medicine, transportation and defense,

2655
02:44:20,879 --> 02:44:26,040
Speaker 3: conflict resolution technologies which emphasize cooperation, understanding, and continuity of relationship.

2656
02:44:26,480 --> 02:44:31,280
Speaker 3: And decentralized social technologies which encourage participation, responsibility, and empowerment.

2657
02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:36,840
Speaker 3: Now you know, I'm the solar punk guy. I'm the

2658
02:44:37,360 --> 02:44:41,360
Speaker 3: you know, the anarchists on YouTube. Whatever he got me

2659
02:44:41,440 --> 02:44:45,039
Speaker 3: on these. You know, I agree with all of these obviously,

2660
02:44:45,840 --> 02:44:48,440
Speaker 3: But what I find interest in is that this list

2661
02:44:49,200 --> 02:44:53,120
Speaker 3: seems to ignore how, you know, the technology is being

2662
02:44:53,160 --> 02:44:57,120
Speaker 3: advocated here are linked to the previous technologies that would

2663
02:44:57,160 --> 02:45:00,920
Speaker 3: just be in decride. You know, like in one section

2664
02:45:01,160 --> 02:45:04,040
Speaker 3: she's talking about, you know, a fan of these chemical technologies,

2665
02:45:05,000 --> 02:45:09,200
Speaker 3: but chemistry is an inevitable component of the biological technology

2666
02:45:09,280 --> 02:45:12,440
Speaker 3: such you're advocating for. Are you saying that you don't

2667
02:45:12,480 --> 02:45:17,199
Speaker 3: like computer technologies, But when you're talking about like solar

2668
02:45:17,320 --> 02:45:19,880
Speaker 3: wind and water energy, which to be fair can be

2669
02:45:19,959 --> 02:45:24,000
Speaker 3: low tech too. Yeah, there is usually some involvement of

2670
02:45:24,120 --> 02:45:30,400
Speaker 3: a computer in those energy systems. So I think it's

2671
02:45:30,440 --> 02:45:36,840
Speaker 3: you know, sight inconsistency there. But I don't know, what

2672
02:45:36,879 --> 02:45:37,280
Speaker 3: do you think?

2673
02:45:37,720 --> 02:45:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think yeah, like we can't sort of yeah, yeah,

2674
02:45:43,080 --> 02:45:45,400
Speaker 4: some times we can't say that to like you say,

2675
02:45:45,440 --> 02:45:48,279
Speaker 4: to a degree, all of these systems will require a technology,

2676
02:45:48,680 --> 02:45:51,520
Speaker 4: and like I suppose we start to get into like

2677
02:45:51,600 --> 02:45:54,000
Speaker 4: what is the technology right before we get too far,

2678
02:45:54,680 --> 02:45:58,120
Speaker 4: and then I think that's probably a question worth asking.

2679
02:45:58,520 --> 02:46:01,600
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think it's easy to throw to maybe

2680
02:46:01,600 --> 02:46:02,680
Speaker 4: out of bar water, I suppose.

2681
02:46:03,760 --> 02:46:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, like, like Momford said, technology is more

2682
02:46:09,160 --> 02:46:14,039
Speaker 3: than just physical objects, it's also techniques of operation organizations

2683
02:46:15,320 --> 02:46:16,439
Speaker 3: that reflects a worldview.

2684
02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:20,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so I suppose, as you said before, right,

2685
02:46:21,080 --> 02:46:24,680
Speaker 4: Like it's what I think about often, it's like what

2686
02:46:24,800 --> 02:46:26,520
Speaker 4: we need to change is the way we see the world,

2687
02:46:27,400 --> 02:46:28,760
Speaker 4: and then the other stuff.

2688
02:46:29,120 --> 02:46:31,720
Speaker 3: Well we can change in a midbe will fall into place.

2689
02:46:32,200 --> 02:46:36,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think again, I'm gonna get back. So I

2690
02:46:36,320 --> 02:46:38,680
Speaker 4: was just in Rojabo for the last few weeks. But

2691
02:46:40,720 --> 02:46:42,840
Speaker 4: one of the things that I heard from everyone there,

2692
02:46:42,920 --> 02:46:44,800
Speaker 4: right from like and not just from like people in

2693
02:46:44,840 --> 02:46:48,360
Speaker 4: the women's movement, but also from like random guy in

2694
02:46:48,440 --> 02:46:52,560
Speaker 4: the market who I'm having tea with, is like that

2695
02:46:52,720 --> 02:46:56,160
Speaker 4: this idea that we can't can't decolonize the country until

2696
02:46:56,160 --> 02:46:58,560
Speaker 4: we declonize our family, and the notion that like women

2697
02:46:58,640 --> 02:47:03,120
Speaker 4: were the first colonized group of people, which and so

2698
02:47:03,320 --> 02:47:05,360
Speaker 4: like if we can't do gender equality, what you know,

2699
02:47:05,440 --> 02:47:07,480
Speaker 4: what are we doing what we can't where where we

2700
02:47:07,560 --> 02:47:10,280
Speaker 4: find this revolution to liberate our country when we can't

2701
02:47:10,320 --> 02:47:16,520
Speaker 4: liberate our spouse, daughter or what have you. So definitely, yeah,

2702
02:47:16,600 --> 02:47:18,720
Speaker 4: it's just it's a very powerful I know it's not

2703
02:47:18,879 --> 02:47:22,880
Speaker 4: like as fun as taking a sledgehammer to a cotton mill,

2704
02:47:23,240 --> 02:47:29,480
Speaker 4: but like if we if we replicate that kind of

2705
02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:34,440
Speaker 4: extractive extractive capitalism is what makes the supply side of

2706
02:47:34,480 --> 02:47:36,879
Speaker 4: these things so bad, and it's what also leads us

2707
02:47:36,920 --> 02:47:38,400
Speaker 4: to think about using them in a way that can

2708
02:47:38,480 --> 02:47:43,720
Speaker 4: extract the most value from the worker. So I would

2709
02:47:43,720 --> 02:47:47,800
Speaker 4: absolutely say that you know, the break the frame in

2710
02:47:47,879 --> 02:47:48,280
Speaker 4: your mind.

2711
02:47:48,400 --> 02:47:53,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, that's a good point. And it's funny,

2712
02:47:53,360 --> 02:47:55,640
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, you know, as going to be as

2713
02:47:55,680 --> 02:47:59,039
Speaker 3: fun as you know, smashing a cotton a cotton mill

2714
02:47:59,120 --> 02:48:01,920
Speaker 3: or whatever. It made me think that you know, perhaps

2715
02:48:02,000 --> 02:48:06,760
Speaker 3: in a revolutionary society. In guess society, you may see

2716
02:48:08,400 --> 02:48:11,840
Speaker 3: therapeutic rage rooms where people can smash out some of

2717
02:48:11,879 --> 02:48:17,480
Speaker 3: their last frustrations against the capitalist system. Yeah, consequences they

2718
02:48:17,480 --> 02:48:18,440
Speaker 3: have left for them to fix.

2719
02:48:19,400 --> 02:48:22,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, to get that out before you you take

2720
02:48:22,080 --> 02:48:22,760
Speaker 4: that out on other.

2721
02:48:23,040 --> 02:48:24,800
Speaker 3: Go and rewild or something. You know, you have to

2722
02:48:25,200 --> 02:48:26,400
Speaker 3: get that energy outfit.

2723
02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:28,840
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, remove the toxicity.

2724
02:48:28,920 --> 02:48:29,360
Speaker 10: I like that.

2725
02:48:30,840 --> 02:48:33,160
Speaker 4: Place where you can take that anger out.

2726
02:48:34,360 --> 02:48:39,920
Speaker 3: Right. So finally, the fourth and final element of the program,

2727
02:48:41,080 --> 02:48:43,400
Speaker 3: she says that we favor the development of a life

2728
02:48:43,480 --> 02:48:48,080
Speaker 3: enhancing worldview in Western technological societies. We open in still

2729
02:48:48,080 --> 02:48:50,560
Speaker 3: a perception of life, death, and human potential, and technological

2730
02:48:50,600 --> 02:48:53,560
Speaker 3: societies they will integrate the human need for creative expression,

2731
02:48:53,840 --> 02:48:57,040
Speaker 3: spiritual experience in community with the capacity for rational thought

2732
02:48:57,080 --> 02:48:59,879
Speaker 3: and functionality. We perceive the human role not as them

2733
02:49:00,240 --> 02:49:03,160
Speaker 3: of other species and planetary biology, but as integrated to

2734
02:49:03,240 --> 02:49:06,200
Speaker 3: the natural world with appreciation for the sacredness of all life.

2735
02:49:06,720 --> 02:49:09,320
Speaker 3: We foresee a sustainable future of humanity if and when

2736
02:49:09,640 --> 02:49:13,600
Speaker 3: Western technological societies restructure their mechanistic projections and foster the

2737
02:49:13,640 --> 02:49:17,320
Speaker 3: creation of machines, techniques, and social organizations to respect both

2738
02:49:17,640 --> 02:49:21,720
Speaker 3: human dignity and the nature's wholeness, and progressing towards such

2739
02:49:21,720 --> 02:49:24,240
Speaker 3: a transition. We are aware that we have nothing to

2740
02:49:24,360 --> 02:49:26,840
Speaker 3: lose except a way of living that leads the destruction

2741
02:49:27,120 --> 02:49:32,240
Speaker 3: of all life. We have a world to gain. Quote

2742
02:49:33,280 --> 02:49:35,200
Speaker 3: word that was.

2743
02:49:36,440 --> 02:49:39,879
Speaker 4: That was a nice, nice, a nice, very rhetorical flare

2744
02:49:39,920 --> 02:49:40,320
Speaker 4: at the end.

2745
02:49:41,160 --> 02:49:41,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's.

2746
02:49:45,640 --> 02:49:49,400
Speaker 3: I mean, in my opinion, coming to a close here,

2747
02:49:50,240 --> 02:49:55,720
Speaker 3: the neololites hits and a miss. They hit a lot

2748
02:49:55,760 --> 02:49:58,240
Speaker 3: more than they miss. There's things I have some slight

2749
02:49:58,320 --> 02:50:01,400
Speaker 3: quibbles with, and I really, of course I have to

2750
02:50:01,440 --> 02:50:04,560
Speaker 3: give them credit for doing a lot more to investigate

2751
02:50:04,680 --> 02:50:08,520
Speaker 3: and confront technology than the vast majority of people. I mean,

2752
02:50:08,520 --> 02:50:12,720
Speaker 3: they're asking the right questions, questions that you don't see

2753
02:50:12,800 --> 02:50:14,680
Speaker 3: being asked at all. You know, you see you get

2754
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:19,080
Speaker 3: these announcements for new technologies, new innovations, new techniques, new whatever.

2755
02:50:19,760 --> 02:50:22,240
Speaker 3: It's always just like you know, marketing and advertising, and

2756
02:50:22,320 --> 02:50:27,080
Speaker 3: then it's just implemented. There's no say of people, there's

2757
02:50:27,120 --> 02:50:30,240
Speaker 3: no raising questions about what are the consequences of this?

2758
02:50:30,400 --> 02:50:32,240
Speaker 3: Be ten years on the line, twenty years on the line,

2759
02:50:32,240 --> 02:50:34,080
Speaker 3: fifty years on the line, hundred years on the line,

2760
02:50:34,080 --> 02:50:37,039
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, yeah, and the lessons of letters are

2761
02:50:37,120 --> 02:50:41,240
Speaker 3: very clear. Technology should serve humanity, not the other way around.

2762
02:50:43,280 --> 02:50:46,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's that's a key take home, Like, Yeah,

2763
02:50:46,959 --> 02:50:49,200
Speaker 4: it's there to make our lives better. We don't have

2764
02:50:49,320 --> 02:50:52,080
Speaker 4: to not to allow us lands more exploited.

2765
02:50:53,160 --> 02:50:58,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, landscape is vast and it's constantly evolving. But the

2766
02:50:58,280 --> 02:51:01,400
Speaker 3: principles of the lights and the vision of contiviual tools,

2767
02:51:02,080 --> 02:51:05,480
Speaker 3: I think they can offer us some guide once and

2768
02:51:05,680 --> 02:51:08,440
Speaker 3: I hope you'll be able to take that away from

2769
02:51:08,879 --> 02:51:12,039
Speaker 3: this two parts. Yeah, and that's all I have for today.

2770
02:51:12,520 --> 02:51:12,720
Speaker 10: Great.

2771
02:51:12,760 --> 02:51:17,039
Speaker 3: Thanks, follow me on YouTube, Andraism support and Petreon, slash

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02:51:17,120 --> 02:51:21,280
Speaker 3: sent Drew, Thanks James for being parts of this and

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Speaker 3: I thank you.

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02:51:21,879 --> 02:51:22,840
Speaker 4: That was good. I enjoyed it.

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02:51:23,480 --> 02:51:24,760
Speaker 3: This has been It could happen here.

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Speaker 12: Peace.

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02:51:29,240 --> 02:51:29,400
Speaker 10: Hey.

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02:51:29,560 --> 02:51:32,640
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

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02:51:32,680 --> 02:51:34,359
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe.

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Speaker 5: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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02:51:37,560 --> 02:51:40,200
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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02:51:40,280 --> 02:51:42,440
Speaker 5: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

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02:51:42,520 --> 02:51:45,920
Speaker 5: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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02:51:46,360 --> 02:51:48,440
Speaker 5: You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated

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Speaker 5: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening,