Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.
Speaker 1: If you miss part one, check it out in iTunes,
Speaker 1: on our website, or on Stitcher or wherever else you
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. In Part two, we dive into how
Speaker 1: Jeff got into golf course architecture, what he loves about strategy,
Speaker 1: what he thinks about PGA tour setups, what TPC course
Speaker 1: he'd like to renovate, and much more. Without further ado,
Speaker 1: here's Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.
Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagridagg bride egg.
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Speaker 1: You're a big fan of golf course architecture. In fact,
Speaker 1: now you're you're part of a firm. I mean you're
Speaker 1: with Mike Clayton, Mike kak Ing and Ashley Mead OCCM.
Speaker 1: So how did you get interested in the subject at first?
Speaker 2: Well, at first, I mean I grew up in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: right right, next door to Royal Melbourne. Basically I wasn't
Speaker 2: a member, but I was a caddy at rock Roll Melbourne.
Speaker 2: I was pretty young, thirteen fourteen, and if you're a caddy,
Speaker 2: they let you play the East Course after four point
Speaker 2: thirty pm. So I wasn't a caddy to caddy. I
Speaker 2: had no interest in caddying. I caddied a little bit.
Speaker 2: Caddies were kind of dying in Australia a little bit
Speaker 2: at that point. It was kind of dying off. People
Speaker 2: weren't doing it as much. But I'd caddy every now
Speaker 2: and then. But I really did it just so I
Speaker 2: could play Royal Melbourne at after four point thirty and
Speaker 2: I all summer. Mama dropped me off there at four
Speaker 2: twenty eight and I would walk straight to the first
Speaker 2: tea on the East Course and I would play until
Speaker 2: dark and should pick me up. Every now and then
Speaker 2: i'd sneak a few holes in the west, which we
Speaker 2: weren't supposed to do. Which is the better of the two,
Speaker 2: I mean, they're both amazing. So I did that and
Speaker 2: I joined Victoria Golf Club when I was sixteen. But
Speaker 2: I grew up on the sand belt and I just
Speaker 2: thought which are. Clearly, everybody who knows golf course architecture
Speaker 2: has any interest knows that the sand Belt, whether they've
Speaker 2: been there or not, they understand that they're some of
Speaker 2: the world's best courses. I just thought that was normal,
Speaker 2: so I didn't I didn't know how treated. I mean,
Speaker 2: everyone told me how good Royal Melbourne was, and these
Speaker 2: courses are great and they're better than everywhere, but I
Speaker 2: didn't really. We all thought that everything in America was better.
Speaker 2: The Australian attitude traditionally was always, oh, everything in America
Speaker 2: is that's always on TV. They're green, and the sanders white,
Speaker 2: and the water is blue and big pine trees and
Speaker 2: everything that we didn't have we thought was great. But
Speaker 2: then as I as I kind of got to the
Speaker 2: elite amateur level and you'd play amateur tournaments, it's so unfair.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's fair for the amateur, but it's unfair
Speaker 2: for everyone. Amated tournaments have played on the best courses
Speaker 2: in the world usually, and the British amateur I mean
Speaker 2: I played British amateurs at Rows and George's Millfield and Canburry,
Speaker 2: and I played the Snandra's Lynx Trophy, a great amateur
Speaker 2: tournament that's still going on, which was three rounds around
Speaker 2: the old and one around the New and the Bratherson Trophy.
Speaker 2: The English stroke play was raws and George's we played
Speaker 2: one time. So I just thought, well, this is what
Speaker 2: golf is because everywhere I knew there were some crappy
Speaker 2: courses around, but I just thought the great courses were
Speaker 2: all great. And then when I turned pro and started
Speaker 2: playing in Europe and I realized the courses that you
Speaker 2: play on tour, just like, what is this, This isn't good,
Speaker 2: This isn't no, this is not it? When do we
Speaker 2: get to the good courses? And I finally it took
Speaker 2: me forever to work out. So I grew up in
Speaker 2: the area of maybe the densest great courses in the world,
Speaker 2: at least up there with Long Island and Westchester County
Speaker 2: and Carmel and and Surrey, say in London. It was
Speaker 2: just I couldn't it just it just disappointed me so
Speaker 2: much that everywhere we went it was just so vanilla
Speaker 2: and bad. I just and it was it was going
Speaker 2: to bad courses that made me realize how good good
Speaker 2: courses are and how much your enjoyment of the day.
Speaker 2: Your enjoyment of the game, whether you acknowledge it or not,
Speaker 2: is built in where you're playing. And not just the
Speaker 2: golf course either, the whole the feel of the clubhouse
Speaker 2: and the smell of the locker room and the and
Speaker 2: the way the parking lot is and the first tea
Speaker 2: in the pro shop and just the whole feel of
Speaker 2: the place contributes so much to your enjoyment of the game,
Speaker 2: and it's so underestimated. And I kind of I worked
Speaker 2: that out in reverse because I just thought this was golf.
Speaker 2: And when I started going to lots of other places,
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is just not as enjoyable. Why, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm playing golf, I'm making money, I'm hitting the ball well,
Speaker 2: I'm making lots of birdies. Why And I finally worked
Speaker 2: out that someone would invite me to Sunningdale or something,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden that feeling was back. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is the game game I play. I love this.
Speaker 2: I mean, how good is this place?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And I started really noticing the level of enjoyment I had.
Speaker 2: Just it's a feeling more than anything else. And just
Speaker 2: when you're at one of those places, and I just
Speaker 2: started getting really addicted to those sort of places. You know.
Speaker 2: I've got a few invitations to Swinley Forrest, which still
Speaker 2: might be my favorite course in the world. Harry Colt's
Speaker 2: least Bad course is how he describes it. It's like
Speaker 2: a mini little pine valley, really exclusive. I had a
Speaker 2: friend who the manager room. I went and played there
Speaker 2: a few times, and it's just absolutely amazing. It's just like,
Speaker 2: I just want to play golf all day every day.
Speaker 2: Just drop me off here every day. That's just what
Speaker 2: I wanted. And then we would go back out on
Speaker 2: tour and play some awful cow paddic in Germany, and
Speaker 2: it's just like, what are we doing here? Like the
Speaker 2: tour should be playing on things like Swaly frosts. This
Speaker 2: is just ridiculous. So I kind of it went and reverse,
Speaker 2: like I didn't know how good I had it until
Speaker 2: I went somewhere else. So it just it grew from that,
Speaker 2: really and as I said, just that feeling of the
Speaker 2: feeling you get when you're at whatever, these really really
Speaker 2: really like highly ranked, amazing places. So many people all
Speaker 2: this shot values and like they focused on completely the
Speaker 2: wrong thing. It's just a feel when you pull up
Speaker 2: Cyprus point, You're just happy, don't care. It's just a
Speaker 2: good feel. Like the locker room is the same one
Speaker 2: it's been for one hundred years. Like the pro shop tiny,
Speaker 2: Like there's the first tea, boys, go play well, see
Speaker 2: you in four hours. Like it's just everything about it.
Speaker 2: So I just liked golf so much more at places
Speaker 2: like that that I started crazing going to places like that,
Speaker 2: and it kind of built out of that.
Speaker 1: It's the really great places generally get it really well
Speaker 1: because all the emphasis is placed in the tensions on
Speaker 1: the golf course and kind of everything else comes second.
Speaker 2: It seems. Yeah, it's no big gates and driveways and
Speaker 2: bag drops and fountains and lake brass handles on the
Speaker 2: doorknobs and silk toilet paper and all that. It's just
Speaker 2: complete fluff that means absolutely nothing and contributes nothing to
Speaker 2: the feel of a place. The feel of a place
Speaker 2: is the tradition, and the golf comes first. This is
Speaker 2: a golf club, guys, We're all here to play golf,
Speaker 2: like we're gonna do it. I mean a lot of
Speaker 2: the I've got amazing clubhouses, and I've got all the
Speaker 2: other stuff, but that's just makeup on top of like
Speaker 2: a makeup on top of something beautiful, like it doesn't
Speaker 2: need to be there to be great. As you say,
Speaker 2: focus on the golf, and almost all of them are
Speaker 2: very very like tied to the history of their club,
Speaker 2: like this is the way it was, so this is
Speaker 2: the way we're going to keep it. And they've been
Speaker 2: had obviously had great superintendents and great managers and greens
Speaker 2: committees through the years that generally have preserved have understood
Speaker 2: why their place was great and preserved that. The places
Speaker 2: who don't understand it, with the bad supers and the
Speaker 2: bad greens committees and the bad owners have thought that
Speaker 2: their driving range wasn't the lockers weren't big enough, or
Speaker 2: that we need three beef jerky after the fourth green
Speaker 2: or something like all that stuff. The clubs that have
Speaker 2: focused on the non golf stuff and the have lost
Speaker 2: their way. The ones who the Cyprus Points, the pine valleys,
Speaker 2: the Sunningdals, the Swinley Forests, the Shintikock Hills, they're so
Speaker 2: like the are they would have been eighty years ago.
Speaker 2: The smart people in the club have understood why their
Speaker 2: place was great, and they've preserved that at all costs.
Speaker 2: And there's a reason why these places are great, and
Speaker 2: the clubs that recognize that are the ones that the
Speaker 2: ones that thrive and kind of get better and better
Speaker 2: over time because they just create that the more history
Speaker 2: and more field of the place.
Speaker 1: It's like a perfect analogy. I was thinking that somebody
Speaker 1: was saying something along similar lines. They were talking about
Speaker 1: all the architects that have worked at this one course,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking in my head, I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: Oakmant's only had three pro golf professionals in their whole history,
Speaker 1: and you know some of these clubs have had ten
Speaker 1: architects work there.
Speaker 3: It's like that, you know, you're trying to do too much.
Speaker 1: Less is more a lot of times in golf and
Speaker 1: just being focused on the core of the game, which
Speaker 1: is the horse and competition is all you kind of need.
Speaker 1: What's your biggest pet peeve in golf course architecture, Well.
Speaker 2: The general one would be a completely a complete misunderstanding
Speaker 2: of strategy. And I know the non golf architecture people
Speaker 2: like with that, rolling their eyes when when people like
Speaker 2: us start talking about strategy, but it's so fundamental it's
Speaker 2: architecture one oh one that the whole to me has
Speaker 2: to make sense. Tenet rifles. I pick thirty in augusta
Speaker 2: hold that everybody knows. It's it's close to the perfect
Speaker 2: hole because the more kind of the better you are,
Speaker 2: and the braver you are off the tee, the easier
Speaker 2: your second shot. Like and exponentially too, you're closer to
Speaker 2: the hole, you have a flatter line, and you have
Speaker 2: a better angle. Every yard you go away from the
Speaker 2: creek or every yard that you're not capable of hitting
Speaker 2: a good draw. The further away from the creek you're
Speaker 2: further away, your angle gets worse and the ball gets
Speaker 2: more above your feet. It's and it's a hole that
Speaker 2: gives the alien handicapper a par every time. Really, Like,
Speaker 2: if you want to make five on thirteen Augusta, and
Speaker 2: that's your innate goal, your goal, you will make it
Speaker 2: every time generally because you've got one hundred yards a
Speaker 2: fairway out to the right, you've got a hundred yards
Speaker 2: of a fairway to lay it up and to and
Speaker 2: you've got a massive green did you hit it onto
Speaker 2: with a big backstop? And you're going to have less
Speaker 2: than twenty five feet for Bertie every single time if
Speaker 2: you play it with that's your intent. But as soon
Speaker 2: as you start trying to make a four or a three,
Speaker 2: that's when you bring in all the carnage and are
Speaker 2: you brave enough and are you good enough to do this?
Speaker 2: And that principle that's the one that annoys me when
Speaker 2: they don't get it right, And funnily enough, almost nobody
Speaker 2: gets it right. Like it's such a basic principle that
Speaker 2: you open up a green from one side and you
Speaker 2: challenge the player to hit it to the good angle.
Speaker 2: But by doing that you have a deep little bunker
Speaker 2: and out of bounds fent, so you have the water
Speaker 2: on that side of the hole. So you have to
Speaker 2: challenge that off the tee. If you want to hit
Speaker 2: the ball close. If you don't want to hit the
Speaker 2: ball closer and you just want to make a par
Speaker 2: or a bogey, that's fine, take the easy way, take
Speaker 2: no risk, but you're really going to have no fun.
Speaker 2: Like that principle. To me, it seems to be hard
Speaker 2: for people to get but that when that goes wrong,
Speaker 2: I completely kind of tune out and I have no interest.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately it goes wrong almost everywhere these days or not,
Speaker 2: there's a renaissance if you like to steal Doake's company name,
Speaker 2: which is appropriate of architecture. That's bringing that back. But
Speaker 2: a specific one would be I don't understand why trees
Speaker 2: can be in front of bunkers double hazards, like one
Speaker 2: specific little advantage. Quite often you'll you'll hit it in
Speaker 2: the bunker and you'll be're screwed because you're in the bunker,
Speaker 2: but there's a tree in front of the bunk as well.
Speaker 2: It's like, why is the bunker heat because I was
Speaker 2: already going to be screwed anyway, Like I trades it
Speaker 2: and it gives the guy who's practiced his fairway bunker
Speaker 2: play and it's developed the skill to do that. It's
Speaker 2: like saying, not you're not allowed to do that. There's
Speaker 2: no point practicing your bunker play because we're just going
Speaker 2: to put you behind a tree, you know, double hazards
Speaker 2: for a really little specific example, just it just draws
Speaker 2: me absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that. Mine's always card path. But
Speaker 1: the strategy stuff. I played this new gil Hans that's
Speaker 1: a hoopie match club and it's sure enough it's a
Speaker 1: match play course and they have half powers on the scorecard.
Speaker 1: You know they it's it's a turd against to talk
Speaker 1: about your score at the course, like what you shot,
Speaker 1: Like they don't want to hear it. But like I
Speaker 1: walked off the eighteenth hole after playing it once and
Speaker 1: I was thinking through it and I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, the strategy made sense on every single hole
Speaker 1: if I took the aggressive line and I got the reward,
Speaker 1: and it was almost it's like shocking to feel that
Speaker 1: way where I was like, wow, they got all the
Speaker 1: strategy right. It's crazy how often it goes wrong. So
Speaker 1: do you you mentioned with the double hazard, like, do
Speaker 1: you think that the way the PGA Tour courses that
Speaker 1: they play promotes a certain type of skill and mutes
Speaker 1: other skills and golfers.
Speaker 2: I think so yeah. I mean the biggest probably the
Speaker 2: biggest issue I think that certainly faces American golf in
Speaker 2: other countries but mostly in the US, is the overwatering
Speaker 2: of golf courses, the over irrigation making it really green.
Speaker 2: And golf is always that it is more interesting when
Speaker 2: the ball will do something when it lands. When a
Speaker 2: ball plugs all value of controlling ball flight and shape,
Speaker 2: and it's completely irrelevant if the ball is just going
Speaker 2: to plug then plug on the fairway and then plug
Speaker 2: around the greens and not go anywhere when it lands.
Speaker 2: You are really just promoting long hitting good putters. You
Speaker 2: want to hit the ball long, and you want to
Speaker 2: be a great putter and be great with your sixty
Speaker 2: you know, around the greens out of rough that now
Speaker 2: I understand these are going on TV and motley courses
Speaker 2: that are like different shades of green and brown don't
Speaker 2: present perhaps to some people's eye, as well as striking
Speaker 2: green fairways. But when you set them up soft, which
Speaker 2: pretty much exclusively the PGA Tour is set up very soft,
Speaker 2: very narrow, very long, very long, rough, very kind of
Speaker 2: penal style of thinking, you create guys that all you
Speaker 2: want to do is go home and work on hitting long,
Speaker 2: high drivers, long eye iron shots and be a great putter.
Speaker 2: Whereas say Snandrew's, for example, where the ball never stops
Speaker 2: when it lands, you know, it stops when it wants to.
Speaker 2: The flight that it comes in on is very important.
Speaker 2: The angle you come from is just exponentially more important
Speaker 2: the angle you're on. If the ball's landing, rolling when
Speaker 2: it lands, they might not present quite as well on TV,
Speaker 2: but they promote a much more interesting style of golf.
Speaker 2: So I understand the predicament. I mean Sonandraw's is an
Speaker 2: underachiever on TV and an overachiever when you're there, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's the extreme example of the whole kind of brown,
Speaker 2: sort of no definition kind of thing. On TV. It
Speaker 2: doesn't present that well, but when you play it, you
Speaker 2: understand that that's the best version of the game you
Speaker 2: can And you can replicate that principle on any golf
Speaker 2: course really, and it can be not going to be
Speaker 2: as brown as Snandra's. It can be greener, but it
Speaker 2: has to be. We have to water golf courses. We
Speaker 2: have to water them less because we have to let
Speaker 2: the ball bounce when it lands. If the ball doesn't
Speaker 2: bounce a role when it lands, the so much of
Speaker 2: the kind of depth and interest or all the shades
Speaker 2: of gray come out of the game. And it's a
Speaker 2: that would be my one thing. We promote long hitting
Speaker 2: good putters just because of how soft and narrow and
Speaker 2: long imposed are.
Speaker 1: It seems like to me, just having watched a lot
Speaker 1: of professional goth like almost like the real the most
Speaker 1: impressive talent with tour players is the ability to hit
Speaker 1: the ball the exact number they want, and if it rolls,
Speaker 1: that's when they lose control.
Speaker 3: Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're very very good even before track Man. TrackMan's
Speaker 2: made it better and we're a little bit more fine tuned,
Speaker 2: but even before that sort of technology, two guys, Yeah,
Speaker 2: between under kind of two hundred yards. I mean, when
Speaker 2: guys are feeling it and playing well, they could tell
Speaker 2: you after the ball's gone ten yards in the air
Speaker 2: if it's going to go one hundred and ninety six
Speaker 2: or one hundred and seventy eighth or I mean, very
Speaker 2: very good at distance control. Late. It's so important to play,
Speaker 2: but as you said, it kind of gets a little bit.
Speaker 2: It's it's a little bit easier when the ball doesn't
Speaker 2: roll when it lands because it's very definite, like you've
Speaker 2: got a definite starting point and a definite ending point.
Speaker 2: There's no like, oh, did that hit a downslow board?
Speaker 2: Did that hit an up slope? Was the height is
Speaker 2: less relevant? I mean a high shot that goes one
Speaker 2: seventy in a low shot that goes one seven. If
Speaker 2: it's soft, they both go one seventy, But the low
Speaker 2: one that flies one seven, he's going to go one
Speaker 2: eighty five. It's firm, and the high one is going
Speaker 2: to go one seventy five, you know, so fly, there's
Speaker 2: just more depth to more shades of gray. I think
Speaker 2: firm golf bring but I understand that. I understand the
Speaker 2: presentation of the pictures and stuff, But firm golf tends
Speaker 2: to find the class in a PGA Tour event pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean it's firm golf is so much tougher to
Speaker 1: it's just so much harder to hit numbers, and it's
Speaker 1: it brings the precision of the game up so much
Speaker 1: more so of all. You know, I don't want to
Speaker 1: get you in trouble with anybody that's like consulting architects
Speaker 1: at like clubs or anything. If you could just blow
Speaker 1: up and completely redo one TPC course, which one would
Speaker 1: it be?
Speaker 2: I would love and I and I think, as I said,
Speaker 2: I think Pete Dye was great. You know. I think
Speaker 2: you really understood the strategy of the game better than
Speaker 2: anyone else in that era. Most of its holes make
Speaker 2: sense in some way. Esthetically. I don't love the whole
Speaker 2: like all the sleepers and stuff, but I mean in
Speaker 2: some places I think they're great. I think they've got
Speaker 2: a little overdone, and I would love to have a
Speaker 2: go at saw brass. And I wouldn't change the routing,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't change the kind of in a kind of
Speaker 2: strategy on the course. I would just make it a
Speaker 2: little bit more attractive around the edges. I think it's
Speaker 2: a little bit too center ties and neat. Now I'm
Speaker 2: not a big fan of those big, long flat bunkers,
Speaker 2: you know, those two hundred yard long bunkers that just
Speaker 2: like run halfway up a hole on one side with
Speaker 2: just this perfectly uniformed bank along the side of it.
Speaker 2: Like I'd like to see that area of Florida can
Speaker 2: look like Pinehurst, you know, it can look kind of
Speaker 2: raggedy and pine straw and sandy kind of. I would
Speaker 2: love to kind of get that more to a Pinehurst
Speaker 2: pine Valley style kind of thing, because I think the
Speaker 2: bones that sawgrass are there to just be. It's a
Speaker 2: really really good golf course. It's just a little bit
Speaker 2: too neat and a little bit too kind of I
Speaker 2: don't know, not kind of it just forced narrowness in
Speaker 2: a few different spots. And I think it's a wonderful course.
Speaker 2: I mean, just just the first few holes. I mean
Speaker 2: you have to fade the T shot off the first
Speaker 2: you have to draw the second shot. The second hole
Speaker 2: you have to draw the T shot, fade the second shot,
Speaker 2: and that pattern follows almost the whole course. If you
Speaker 2: don't move it both ways, you're really not going to
Speaker 2: be able to shoot a great score there. And I
Speaker 2: think that was kind of that kind of rugged look
Speaker 2: and some like some good looking bunkers and stuff. I
Speaker 2: think it could be really really special sort grass. I
Speaker 2: think it's really close to being special.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it opened, it was a lot more rugged looking.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's gotten more and more capped over time,
Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the you know, when
Speaker 1: you charge four hundred dollars for somebody to come play,
Speaker 1: that's what they expect. But you know, you talk about
Speaker 1: those two hundred yard long traps, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: for the vast majority of that bunker, it has no
Speaker 1: effect on a tour player. And it just like I
Speaker 1: always whenever I walk around that golf course or watch
Speaker 1: it on TV, I think about how hard it must
Speaker 1: be for a fifteen handicap.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that would be a brutal course for a
Speaker 2: fifteen night a gap guy. I mean, it beats us up,
Speaker 2: as you're saying, and because it's such a test and
Speaker 2: you really have to be moving the ball both ways,
Speaker 2: and it's always windy and you've got to be greater
Speaker 2: and the grains obviously, it's it would be I kind
Speaker 2: of imagine the average, like the average nice twelve fifteen
Speaker 2: hendicap guy who's a good golfer playing there. It would
Speaker 2: just bash you over the head all day and it
Speaker 2: would just be just And everybody wants to play it,
Speaker 2: obviously because it's seventeen in the history and the tournament,
Speaker 2: and I completely get that, but it wouldn't be that
Speaker 2: enjoyable experience if you did it all the time, because
Speaker 2: it would just beat you over the head all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about if I live there and I
Speaker 1: could play there every day, I probably would play a
Speaker 1: lot of other places in town more than there, because
Speaker 1: you know, it would be really fun to go play
Speaker 1: every once in a while. But like you know, playing
Speaker 1: like extreme championship golf course like isn't always the most
Speaker 1: fun place to play on a day offer like just
Speaker 1: for a casual round.
Speaker 2: No, Well, I think that's the thing that's gone the
Speaker 2: most wrong. If you want to pick something that is
Speaker 2: going wrong. I think golf has gone great, but that
Speaker 2: kind of Tory Pine South mentality of take this great
Speaker 2: municipal on is just arguably maybe one of the best
Speaker 2: places of the land in the world, and you just
Speaker 2: make it the hardest, longest slog that completely detracts from
Speaker 2: where you're at because it's such a beatdown. It's like
Speaker 2: somebody bashing you in here with the sledgehammer eighteen times.
Speaker 2: It's just it's missing the point. I wouldn't want to
Speaker 2: go play that. When people ask you, I go play
Speaker 2: Tory Times, I'm like, no, you're not going to have
Speaker 2: any fun. Go for a walk around the property shore
Speaker 2: because it's a stunning place, but it's so hard that
Speaker 2: it's not enjoyable. I mean, with the exception of probably
Speaker 2: Pine Valley and Oakmont, which are outliers really in the
Speaker 2: great golf courses, in that their intent was to be really,
Speaker 2: really difficult and just they happen to end up great.
Speaker 2: I mean, generally, if difficulty is the mission, you don't
Speaker 2: end up with something great. Generally, Oakmond Pine Valley of
Speaker 2: somehow got out of that for lots of other reasons.
Speaker 2: But the great golf courses usually have lots of width
Speaker 2: and lots of options, and if a tool player wants
Speaker 2: to go shoot even par or something at Augusta, it's
Speaker 2: really not that difficult if his intent is to shoot
Speaker 2: even par. As soon as he starts trying to make birdies,
Speaker 2: that vantage comes and he shoots seventy eight. But they
Speaker 2: allow everybody to play. These top fifty golf courses generally
Speaker 2: easier for an aiden handicapper and harder for a scratch player,
Speaker 2: you know, And I think that that's what has got
Speaker 2: got when when places go wrong, that's the point they miss.
Speaker 2: I think you want to make golf as easy as
Speaker 2: you can for the aiding handicapper, because it's already really
Speaker 2: hard for him. You know, a dead flat hole with
Speaker 2: no hazards and like bumper bowling version of golf is
Speaker 2: still really hard for that guy. But the scratch guy,
Speaker 2: he needs the challenge. And I think that Snandrews. The
Speaker 2: Augusta is, the Shinnecocks, the Nationals, the pick any of
Speaker 2: the Chicago golf clubs, the Cyprus Points, I mean, you
Speaker 2: pick any number of them, and generally they're they're easier
Speaker 2: for the alien handicap guy. But they're much more difficult
Speaker 2: for the two level guy or the scratch guy, because
Speaker 2: the scratch guy wants to beat his head shoot two
Speaker 2: or three under par, and to shoot two or three
Speaker 2: under par, you've got to start making some taking some risks,
Speaker 2: and then you'd start getting into all the carnage if
Speaker 2: you just want to shoot, like the fairways usually really wide,
Speaker 2: and you're just when you're a handicap and you want
Speaker 2: to just bogey every hole. It's relatively easy if your
Speaker 2: goal to boge every hole is to do that, because
Speaker 2: they give you a lot of room to avoid the
Speaker 2: problems if you're willing to give up birdies and pars.
Speaker 2: That aspect, I think is kind of where it went wrong.
Speaker 2: It's like, we're just going to make golf hard because
Speaker 2: people want it hard. And when you make it hard
Speaker 2: across the board, it's just it's just something that's too hard.
Speaker 2: You need to have challenge, but too hard just for
Speaker 2: hard's sake. It just gets boring after a while and
Speaker 2: you choose to do something else because it's just it's
Speaker 2: beating you over the head, and where's the It's got
Speaker 2: to give you a few thrills here and there, you know,
Speaker 2: you've got to find your ball and you're going to
Speaker 2: be able to get to par fours in two and
Speaker 2: past threeson one. For that exams that matter, it's that
Speaker 2: if you if you went by that principle, I think
Speaker 2: you really it's hard to go wrong. How do we
Speaker 2: make this easier for adian handing hebron and harder for
Speaker 2: a scratch guy. I think golf courses that tick that
Speaker 2: box are usually almost all the way there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a good way to do that is with
Speaker 1: don't water it too much, because then you know, when
Speaker 1: a guy duffs it, it rolls for a while, and
Speaker 1: it's rolling towards the hole, and for the good player
Speaker 1: it makes the margin for error slimmer when they're trying
Speaker 1: to get out of pin. It's like, you know, it
Speaker 1: all goes hand in hand, and it seems pretty simple.
Speaker 2: Exactly. I mean, I know people love green and that's fine.
Speaker 2: And when you start stop watering so much, you still
Speaker 2: got to water to make grass grow. I mean, we're
Speaker 2: not talking about not watering, but just so the ball
Speaker 2: does something when it lands. What really first made me
Speaker 2: think about this was I was at Pinehurst for the Open.
Speaker 2: I can't remember which one I think the most recent.
Speaker 1: One, but one, yeah, twenty fourteen, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I was in the bar at the Pinehurst Hotel
Speaker 2: or whatever, and I was just sitting there with my
Speaker 2: body having a beer or something, and the table next
Speaker 2: to us, so like, oh, we started chatting about the
Speaker 2: tournament and stuff like that, and they say, yeah, there
Speaker 2: were snowbirds down there and they played there every winter.
Speaker 2: But they came down to watch the Open. And I said, well,
Speaker 2: which course do you like the best? Do you ever
Speaker 2: play number two? Or is it too hard? And they
Speaker 2: said no, no, no, no, no, you don't know what
Speaker 2: you're talking about. Number two is the easiest for us.
Speaker 2: That's the one we like the most because it's the
Speaker 2: easiest for us. All the other ones they're the hard
Speaker 2: ones because they've got forced carries and stuff everywhere, and
Speaker 2: it blew me away. It's like Pinet's number two. It's
Speaker 2: so difficult for us. It's out. It's just incredible. But
Speaker 2: he explained, this guy explained the husband and wife. They
Speaker 2: explained that they could put it from everywhere. They have
Speaker 2: no forced carries anywhere. The ball rolls a long way.
Speaker 2: It's quite easy to keep it out of the trouble.
Speaker 2: If feds that's their only mission. They get it around
Speaker 2: the green, they roll their putter up onto the green.
Speaker 2: They one part for par or they're two put for bogey,
Speaker 2: and they're like all the other ones. We've got to
Speaker 2: hit like it shots over water and deep bunkers and
Speaker 2: all that, and pinehas gives the average player room to
Speaker 2: do what he can do. But at the same time
Speaker 2: it presents such a challenge. I mean, the hardest iron
Speaker 2: shot you could be in the middle of the fairway
Speaker 2: all day at Pineha's for a two level goal. For
Speaker 2: if you even par from the middle of the fairway,
Speaker 2: if you hit twelve greens in regulation for the day,
Speaker 2: you've had a great day. And that's somebody giving you.
Speaker 2: It is so hard for us, and it just crystallized
Speaker 2: this idea in my hands, like, well, what, that's the
Speaker 2: principle that's perfect. Number two was their favorite and it
Speaker 2: was also my favorite, And it was my favorite because
Speaker 2: it was so difficult, and it was their favorite because
Speaker 2: it was kind of relatively easy for them. So it
Speaker 2: was just amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah to me, I'm seeing Painehurst the next week for
Speaker 1: the first time, and like, as I've thought about through
Speaker 1: Open a US Open Championship courses like that one to
Speaker 1: me seems like the one that gets it the most
Speaker 1: right in terms of it's got with it's got angles.
Speaker 1: But like, the greens are so interesting and so difficult that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, eighteen handicaps are only going to hit four
Speaker 1: or five greens in a round, you know, regardless of
Speaker 1: what type of greens they are. That's where the challenge
Speaker 1: has to come to really challenge you guys.
Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, the greens. I'll be interested to
Speaker 2: see what you think about the greens. They're very repelling. Obviously,
Speaker 2: they're all they're up in the air and they kind
Speaker 2: of they roll off on all four sides, and they're
Speaker 2: incredibly uncomfortable. It makes you uncomfortable, which is what a
Speaker 2: lot of great holes do. They make you what they
Speaker 2: make you sort of take on shots you don't really
Speaker 2: want to, you know, but you know you kind of
Speaker 2: have to take it on anyway, because if you don't
Speaker 2: take it on and swing with real conviction, you're going
Speaker 2: to miss the green and you're going to make a bug.
Speaker 2: So you've really got to play with conviction and really
Speaker 2: kind of know what you're doing. And it's a little
Speaker 2: bit I don't know if I'd want to play Partners
Speaker 2: number two every day, but it's a brilliant place and
Speaker 2: it's got to talk about great fear, and it's got
Speaker 2: such a great feel and the Crenshaw core redo is
Speaker 2: just so brilliant. Like it just it didn't change Pinehurst.
Speaker 2: It just brought it back to what it should be,
Speaker 2: at least from an aesthetic perspective. And it got rid
Speaker 2: of the silly ruff and irrigated the center line the
Speaker 2: cent line irrigation as opposed to throwing the irrigation into
Speaker 2: the rough and stuff. I mean, they did some really
Speaker 2: really good stuff and it should be one of the
Speaker 2: benchmarks for remodels around the country because they did. They
Speaker 2: did a lot of stuff right. So I think you'll
Speaker 2: enjoy it. I think you'll be surprised at how extreme
Speaker 2: some of the greens are, but I think you'll enjoy it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the only way to challenge like a
Speaker 1: player of your caliber is to like in today's game,
Speaker 1: it's to become driver wedges, to have greens that make
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable with a wedge in your hand, and.
Speaker 2: That does that. Promists will do that. There is no
Speaker 2: distance away from the green that is truly comfortable until
Speaker 2: you're on it.
Speaker 1: So let's get it, yeah out of here. On a
Speaker 1: few quick questions. So you get one course on each continent.
Speaker 3: What are you picking?
Speaker 2: Okay, North America, let's say, Well, that's a difficult one
Speaker 2: because North America might have the best bunch of golf
Speaker 2: courses there is. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna The obvious
Speaker 2: would be Pine Valley. If you've been to Pine Valley,
Speaker 2: and anyone who has would say the same thing. But
Speaker 2: I'm gonna stay by that. I'm going to go National
Speaker 2: Golf Links of America. I just think it's it's it's
Speaker 2: everything that's great about the template whole concept, and it's
Speaker 2: it's it's that the beauty of North American press Wick
Speaker 2: kind of presented in such a beautiful way, and like
Speaker 2: it maybe one of the more beautiful places in the world.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's just everything golf could be.
Speaker 2: It's just fun. It's just a fun adventure. It's just
Speaker 2: an adventure, and it's fun. Europe, I guess I already
Speaker 2: And Swindley Forest I think is my favorite. Now if
Speaker 2: I want to pick the best, I'm I think Snandra's
Speaker 2: is our sports measuring stick. I think everyone should go
Speaker 2: to the Old Course, and I think everyone should play
Speaker 2: it as much as they can, walk it as much
Speaker 2: as they can, and watch people play it as much
Speaker 2: as they can, and it really after a while, it
Speaker 2: might it might be like some music for people to
Speaker 2: get back to music, kind of analogy. It might sound
Speaker 2: like noise at first, but after a while you begin
Speaker 2: to hear the melody like the Old Course. That is
Speaker 2: what it is. It's just it's everything all of a sudden.
Speaker 2: It might go off day one, or it might take
Speaker 2: fifty days, but eventually the light bulb is going to
Speaker 2: go up and go ah ah, I get it now.
Speaker 2: But that's the point, and it's so obvious and it's
Speaker 2: so amazing, and it's it's if you put me on
Speaker 2: one golf course in Europe for the rest of my
Speaker 2: life to play. If it wasn't the Sween Leaders, because
Speaker 2: I love the field of the place, it would be
Speaker 2: the Old Course because it's just it's just as I said,
Speaker 2: it's it's the sports measuring stick and it needs it's respected,
Speaker 2: but it needs to be respected more. It needs to
Speaker 2: be visited by everybody. It's the Vatican or it's Macca.
Speaker 2: It's like, that's that's the thing, that the whole game
Speaker 2: is built around. The principles that are that are exemplified
Speaker 2: best at the Old Course. Australasia. Content I don't. I
Speaker 2: can't talk South America because I've never been there. So
Speaker 2: pick me one. He's the dog here of the dog.
Speaker 2: What's that? Well?
Speaker 1: I played the Jockey Club in Argentina.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's supposed to be great, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good one.
Speaker 2: All right, So I'll go with you on that one.
Speaker 2: Jockey Club Asia, I'm not sure either. I haven't played
Speaker 2: much architecturally significant stuff in Asia, not enough to like
Speaker 2: make any comments. I know India's got to cut the
Speaker 2: great ones. Japan's got a cut the great ones? Is
Speaker 2: it Herono? I think it supposed to be great. I
Speaker 2: haven't played enough there. I've played a couple of tournaments there.
Speaker 2: We play this cool Visa t Hayo thing, which is
Speaker 2: not that amazing course, but it sits at the bottom
Speaker 2: of Mount Fuji. It's a beautiful kind of places because
Speaker 2: you look up at the elusive Mountain or whatever they
Speaker 2: call it. It's in the clouds. It's out of the clouds.
Speaker 2: There's snow on the top of it. The mountain to
Speaker 2: draw when you're a kid. So I can't really speak
Speaker 2: for Asia, but we'll put Australia in Asia because there's
Speaker 2: a lot of Australia and raw. Melbourne is by far
Speaker 2: and away my favorite course in Australia. It's so good
Speaker 2: it's it baffles every time I play. It's on those courses.
Speaker 2: I like it more every time I play it. Of
Speaker 2: the two, the West Course is the one of my favorite.
Speaker 2: It's incredibly short now, unfortunately, but I'll often go out
Speaker 2: just with a persimmon wood and a half set blade putterer,
Speaker 2: you know, go old school, and I never never don't
Speaker 2: it's even a golf course. I'd go playing the rain
Speaker 2: for fun, you know. It's just I just love everything
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: Would that be a good.
Speaker 1: Format for the PGA Tour, is like a half set,
Speaker 1: like a six or a nine club event.
Speaker 2: I think that would be great. I think a half
Speaker 2: set whatever, Yeah, six club, nine club, pick one. I
Speaker 2: mean I think the less clubs are more interesting. To
Speaker 2: a point three clubs is probably a bit low, but
Speaker 2: like six would be really interesting, right that would be
Speaker 2: a fun time, especially around a course that it would suit,
Speaker 2: you know, like a maybe it's too small for modern
Speaker 2: golf with all our stuff, but you find but you
Speaker 2: really want to have an event there and it really worked.
Speaker 2: Maybe do the sixth the six club thing there. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's only thirty six holes, but maybe you make all
Speaker 2: the players up and everybody talks about or why did
Speaker 2: you pick three one? I mean, I can't believe you
Speaker 2: put a three on and you've got to go a
Speaker 2: five one and then I hope or I mean you'd
Speaker 2: have those great kind of debates about what everyone was
Speaker 2: picking and why they were doing it, and do you
Speaker 2: have a sixty or do you just go fifty four
Speaker 2: or do you go straight from pitching wedge to sixty
Speaker 2: or do you go nine nine to fifty four? Or
Speaker 2: like it'd be great, Yeah, it would. That'd be fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that would be super cool.
Speaker 1: You could do it at like a you know, a
Speaker 1: sixty four hundred yard classic course too, which would be
Speaker 1: super fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There'd be so many courses that are so great,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately almost all of those really a great ones,
Speaker 2: they're probably getting too short, except for the ones that
Speaker 2: the usgas manipulated that you go on these really great
Speaker 2: and have like the old school classic or whatever you
Speaker 2: want to call it, Like we can use modern stuff,
Speaker 2: but like less clubs. And it would be really really
Speaker 2: interesting because guys might not take a driver, you know,
Speaker 2: three wood might be their max, you know, because they
Speaker 2: might want more clubs down the other end of the back.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it would be giving guys the
Speaker 2: choice of which one is to choose and seeing how
Speaker 2: they thought was best to attack the course. It'd be
Speaker 2: great to be a brilliant event.
Speaker 1: And then you could have a whole preview show where
Speaker 1: Phil just walks you through his philosophy on each one
Speaker 1: of his clubs.
Speaker 2: Yes, so that would be. He'd write a novel on
Speaker 2: that one.
Speaker 3: He might carry two drivers.
Speaker 2: He is maybe he is one of the more interesting
Speaker 2: dinner party guests there is on tour. I mean he
Speaker 2: he he believes with such conviction, whether he kind of
Speaker 2: deep down knowses the kind of crap or not. He
Speaker 2: just loves trying to get one up in front of everybody.
Speaker 2: And he's obviously very very smart, and he spends a
Speaker 2: lot of time trying to outthink the whole thing, and
Speaker 2: it's just fascinating. Some of the stuff he comes up with.
Speaker 2: He's absolutely brilliant. Who goes to Tory Pines without a drive?
Speaker 2: The longest he was open in history in two thousand
Speaker 2: and eight, he went with two three woods. He didn't
Speaker 2: go with a driver. And then he goes to the
Speaker 2: Masters like well, the year before I think he went
Speaker 2: to the Masters with two drivers of no freewood like brilliant, tough,
Speaker 2: I mean, and when he tells you for ten minutes
Speaker 2: and he'll sell his theory, is that? Yeah, you know what,
Speaker 2: he's probably right there, you know, because he sells it
Speaker 2: so well, it's fantastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's one of the kind. What about Africa?
Speaker 2: No, I haven't played enough well doerbed, but maybe pretty.
Speaker 3: Good in it, I think, Yeah, I think that's a
Speaker 3: good one.
Speaker 2: I haven't played enough to to make up enough of
Speaker 2: an educated statement on that one.
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, yeah, that's all right. Next quick one here.
Speaker 1: If conditions are right, firm and fast, what's the winning
Speaker 1: score at Shinnacock this year?
Speaker 2: It'll be overpower, I would imagine, depending on the teas.
Speaker 2: I mean, they've built some like Godzilla level teas, but
Speaker 2: they don't necessarily use them, right, I mean a lot
Speaker 2: of these openmont They threw a few teas in that
Speaker 2: we didn't really scare very much. You know, they put
Speaker 2: them there in case conditions get to the point where
Speaker 2: they might want to need that right I have. It's
Speaker 2: such the way the land is there, it's never going
Speaker 2: to get soft. It's's hard to imagine shinnacock too off.
Speaker 2: It might be raining, but it's still going to have
Speaker 2: that firm element because of the sand underneath. So I
Speaker 2: would I think it'll be very close to par. I
Speaker 2: don't think it would be won't be the Aaron Hills scoreline.
Speaker 2: I think it'll be more. If you're even par after
Speaker 2: three rounds, you're going to have a real chance.
Speaker 3: That's uh. I hope that that happens.
Speaker 1: I wish they wouldn't have a narrowed at That really
Speaker 1: kind of buged me.
Speaker 2: The narrowing. I don't mind the lengthening as much because
Speaker 2: we do hit the ball so far now, But the
Speaker 2: narrowing is the offensive stuff because you lose some of
Speaker 2: the angles and stuff of the You lose the intent
Speaker 2: and some of these greens which are unhittable from say
Speaker 2: where the middle of the fairway is now are very
Speaker 2: hittable from where the edge of the fairway used to be.
Speaker 2: And now that the edge of the fairway isn't where
Speaker 2: it used to be, is now rough. You don't have
Speaker 2: McDonald rainer angle that they said, wow, unless you're good,
Speaker 2: if you can get it here, you can play this hole.
Speaker 2: If you can't, you can't. I don't like it when
Speaker 2: that stuff gets taken away, But the length, I don't
Speaker 2: mind car as much because in this dynagic s out
Speaker 2: of affairs, we kind of native bit length.
Speaker 1: That's I did this article on AUGUSTA, and I looked
Speaker 1: at the holes that they've narrowed with the trees like
Speaker 1: eleven and versus the holes that they've just lengthened and
Speaker 1: haven't really added trees, and it's it's unbelievable, like those
Speaker 1: holes that they added the trees that they're just trading
Speaker 1: birdies and bogies for double bogies, so you know, like
Speaker 1: they're just you know, they're losing excitement and interest in
Speaker 1: the game because people aren't able to get to certain
Speaker 1: pins with the right angle. And then the holes that
Speaker 1: they've just lengthened have like stayed the distribution over the
Speaker 1: last fifty years has stayed like exactly the same.
Speaker 2: Well, because we hit the ball whatever, let's say fifty
Speaker 2: odd longer than in nine fifty or whatever it would be. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's probably and I know they say why you should
Speaker 2: be hitting seven eines inn and all that, but a
Speaker 2: two hundred yard shots are two hundred yard shot, you know,
Speaker 2: like seven nine to two hundred yards and a four
Speaker 2: he two hundred yard. Yeah, the seven eydes a little
Speaker 2: easier to too, or two hundred, but the real inherent
Speaker 2: difficulty in that is the fact that it's two hundred
Speaker 2: yards and the fact that a seven eine now is
Speaker 2: probably what a five iron was lost wise back then,
Speaker 2: So it's really like a five on anyway, right, But
Speaker 2: the narrowness, Yeah, like seven and seventeen are the ones
Speaker 2: I disliked the leaf or the new trees at the Masters.
Speaker 2: The seventeenth Green might be one of the more interesting
Speaker 2: greens ever built in the world. And the whole point
Speaker 2: was especially though, because it's kind of a it's high
Speaker 2: in the middle and it goes down to the right
Speaker 2: and it goes down to the left. Kind of the
Speaker 2: point is the pins on the left. You actually want
Speaker 2: to drive it up the left, which is counterintuitive, right,
Speaker 2: That's why it's a clever green. And when the pins
Speaker 2: on the right, you want to blow it as far
Speaker 2: right as you can to kind of be landing into
Speaker 2: that upslope on the right inside of the green. You
Speaker 2: can't do that anymore. Everybody's dictated to hit from the
Speaker 2: same spot. So if you don't hit the if you
Speaker 2: hit the middle of the fairway, it's kind of a
Speaker 2: part three because everybody's hitting their second shot from the
Speaker 2: same spot. It's clearly more interesting when the fan, the patrons,
Speaker 2: if you like, behind the green. I seen one guy
Speaker 2: come in from the middle of the fifteenth seway and
Speaker 2: another guy coming in from over near the seventh green
Speaker 2: to the same pin. It's like maybe two different theories
Speaker 2: or whatever, and that is interesting, much more interesting than
Speaker 2: two guys hitting it from the same spot. Well, that's
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: And like you look back at the nineteen eighty six Masters,
Speaker 1: where Jack was hitting a second shot on the seventeenth,
Speaker 1: he would have been in like a canopy of trees
Speaker 1: and he would that the most one of the most
Speaker 1: famous moments in in major championship history would never have
Speaker 1: happened with the vern lunkuis yesterda car like if he'd
Speaker 1: played that today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, and I think yeah, with lack of width,
Speaker 2: is is kind of deciding that your greens and your
Speaker 2: bunkers are your greens aren't good enough. You know, If
Speaker 2: your greens are good enough and they're interesting enough, then
Speaker 2: it really you don't need any fairway trouble really, because
Speaker 2: if the greens good enough, there's one really good spot
Speaker 2: to come in from and lots of bad ones angle wise,
Speaker 2: And this obviously takes into account it needs to be firm,
Speaker 2: but if you get everything right, it doesn't need to
Speaker 2: be that narrow. Really, it really doesn't. And and this
Speaker 2: isn't just from a golfer who doesn't like hitting the
Speaker 2: ball in the rough. I just think it's not about
Speaker 2: easy or hard. It's about interest. It's about making it
Speaker 2: more interesting, because what's going to bring you back next
Speaker 2: time to while the watch and play it is how
Speaker 2: interesting it is, how many different ways there are to
Speaker 2: do it. When you narrow stuff down so much, you
Speaker 2: dictate where people have to play it, just it loses
Speaker 2: a little few again, those shades of gray kind of
Speaker 2: get lost a little bit because it's a bit more
Speaker 2: black and white it's fair way good, rough bad, or
Speaker 2: trees bad. You know. So, yeah, I've got no problem
Speaker 2: with the length. Yeah, I mean I do in some ways,
Speaker 2: but not really. It kind of needs to happen if
Speaker 2: we're going to play the course. But it's the it's
Speaker 2: the inherent kind of misunderstanding of the strategy and taking
Speaker 2: the strategy away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I mean, like I think about myself
Speaker 1: and amateur stuff, like mid am stuff, and like my
Speaker 1: strength and my game is hitting the ball straight. So
Speaker 1: like it's funny because like the golf courses I hate
Speaker 1: the most that are the most narrow. I like playing
Speaker 1: in competition the most, like because it gives me an advantage.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's kind of stupid, but it's it's not.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're also it's all self interested at the
Speaker 2: end of the day. Like straight it is like narrow courses,
Speaker 2: and wild it is like wide courses, and long it
Speaker 2: is like long courses. And yeah, I mean it's gotta
Speaker 2: be some selfish just involved.
Speaker 1: So we do this overrated underrated segment just quick, you
Speaker 1: know whether whether this thing is overrated or underrated.
Speaker 3: So kangaroos underwrited the concept of par.
Speaker 2: Overrated harbor Town overrited.
Speaker 3: That's how that's a good take. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think Harbor Town's the one I struggle because, like
Speaker 1: in the history of architecture, I think it's underrated, but
Speaker 1: playing it today is overrated.
Speaker 2: I think the way the tour players talk about it,
Speaker 2: they talk about it in the same breath as Riviera
Speaker 2: and Pebble Beach and stuff, and it's just not that.
Speaker 2: I think it's very interesting and it's very good, but
Speaker 2: it's not that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not saying it's not good.
Speaker 2: I'm saying it's ever writed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a riviera. I feel like it is in
Speaker 1: a class of itself. It's an above all else on
Speaker 1: like the regular PGA tour.
Speaker 3: I think, all right, well, Jeff, hey, thanks so much
Speaker 3: for your time.
Speaker 1: I'm really appreciative, and good luck this week and we'll
Speaker 1: we'll catch up Dune.
Speaker 2: No worries, it sounds good. Thanks man.
Speaker 3: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do
Speaker 3: the digging for you.
Speaker 2: H