WEBVTT - Geoff Ogilvy - Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.

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<v Speaker 1>If you miss part one, check it out in iTunes,

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<v Speaker 1>on our website, or on Stitcher or wherever else you

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<v Speaker 1>listen to podcasts. In Part two, we dive into how

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff got into golf course architecture, what he loves about strategy,

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<v Speaker 1>what he thinks about PGA tour setups, what TPC course

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<v Speaker 1>he'd like to renovate, and much more. Without further ado,

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<v Speaker 1>here's Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.

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<v Speaker 2>I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 2>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball in a brid egg

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<v Speaker 2>Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagridagg bride egg.

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<v Speaker 1>Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.

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<v Speaker 1>You're a big fan of golf course architecture. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>now you're you're part of a firm. I mean you're

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<v Speaker 1>with Mike Clayton, Mike kak Ing and Ashley Mead OCCM.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did you get interested in the subject at first?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, at first, I mean I grew up in Melbourne,

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<v Speaker 2>right right, next door to Royal Melbourne. Basically I wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>a member, but I was a caddy at rock Roll Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 2>I was pretty young, thirteen fourteen, and if you're a caddy,

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<v Speaker 2>they let you play the East Course after four point

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<v Speaker 2>thirty pm. So I wasn't a caddy to caddy. I

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<v Speaker 2>had no interest in caddying. I caddied a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Caddies were kind of dying in Australia a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>at that point. It was kind of dying off. People

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<v Speaker 2>weren't doing it as much. But I'd caddy every now

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<v Speaker 2>and then. But I really did it just so I

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<v Speaker 2>could play Royal Melbourne at after four point thirty and

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<v Speaker 2>I all summer. Mama dropped me off there at four

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eight and I would walk straight to the first

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<v Speaker 2>tea on the East Course and I would play until

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<v Speaker 2>dark and should pick me up. Every now and then

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<v Speaker 2>i'd sneak a few holes in the west, which we

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<v Speaker 2>weren't supposed to do. Which is the better of the two,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're both amazing. So I did that and

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<v Speaker 2>I joined Victoria Golf Club when I was sixteen. But

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up on the sand belt and I just

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<v Speaker 2>thought which are. Clearly, everybody who knows golf course architecture

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<v Speaker 2>has any interest knows that the sand Belt, whether they've

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<v Speaker 2>been there or not, they understand that they're some of

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<v Speaker 2>the world's best courses. I just thought that was normal,

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<v Speaker 2>so I didn't I didn't know how treated. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone told me how good Royal Melbourne was, and these

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<v Speaker 2>courses are great and they're better than everywhere, but I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really. We all thought that everything in America was better.

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<v Speaker 2>The Australian attitude traditionally was always, oh, everything in America

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<v Speaker 2>is that's always on TV. They're green, and the sanders white,

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<v Speaker 2>and the water is blue and big pine trees and

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<v Speaker 2>everything that we didn't have we thought was great. But

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<v Speaker 2>then as I as I kind of got to the

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<v Speaker 2>elite amateur level and you'd play amateur tournaments, it's so unfair.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's fair for the amateur, but it's unfair

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<v Speaker 2>for everyone. Amated tournaments have played on the best courses

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<v Speaker 2>in the world usually, and the British amateur I mean

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<v Speaker 2>I played British amateurs at Rows and George's Millfield and Canburry,

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<v Speaker 2>and I played the Snandra's Lynx Trophy, a great amateur

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<v Speaker 2>tournament that's still going on, which was three rounds around

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<v Speaker 2>the old and one around the New and the Bratherson Trophy.

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<v Speaker 2>The English stroke play was raws and George's we played

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<v Speaker 2>one time. So I just thought, well, this is what

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<v Speaker 2>golf is because everywhere I knew there were some crappy

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<v Speaker 2>courses around, but I just thought the great courses were

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<v Speaker 2>all great. And then when I turned pro and started

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<v Speaker 2>playing in Europe and I realized the courses that you

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<v Speaker 2>play on tour, just like, what is this, This isn't good,

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't no, this is not it? When do we

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<v Speaker 2>get to the good courses? And I finally it took

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<v Speaker 2>me forever to work out. So I grew up in

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<v Speaker 2>the area of maybe the densest great courses in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>at least up there with Long Island and Westchester County

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<v Speaker 2>and Carmel and and Surrey, say in London. It was

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<v Speaker 2>just I couldn't it just it just disappointed me so

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<v Speaker 2>much that everywhere we went it was just so vanilla

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<v Speaker 2>and bad. I just and it was it was going

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<v Speaker 2>to bad courses that made me realize how good good

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<v Speaker 2>courses are and how much your enjoyment of the day.

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<v Speaker 2>Your enjoyment of the game, whether you acknowledge it or not,

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<v Speaker 2>is built in where you're playing. And not just the

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<v Speaker 2>golf course either, the whole the feel of the clubhouse

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<v Speaker 2>and the smell of the locker room and the and

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<v Speaker 2>the way the parking lot is and the first tea

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<v Speaker 2>in the pro shop and just the whole feel of

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<v Speaker 2>the place contributes so much to your enjoyment of the game,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's so underestimated. And I kind of I worked

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<v Speaker 2>that out in reverse because I just thought this was golf.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I started going to lots of other places,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, this is just not as enjoyable. Why, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm playing golf, I'm making money, I'm hitting the ball well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm making lots of birdies. Why And I finally worked

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<v Speaker 2>out that someone would invite me to Sunningdale or something,

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<v Speaker 2>and all of a sudden that feeling was back. It's like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the game game I play. I love this.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how good is this place?

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<v Speaker 3>You know?

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<v Speaker 2>And I started really noticing the level of enjoyment I had.

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<v Speaker 2>Just it's a feeling more than anything else. And just

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<v Speaker 2>when you're at one of those places, and I just

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<v Speaker 2>started getting really addicted to those sort of places. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a few invitations to Swinley Forrest, which still

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<v Speaker 2>might be my favorite course in the world. Harry Colt's

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<v Speaker 2>least Bad course is how he describes it. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>a mini little pine valley, really exclusive. I had a

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<v Speaker 2>friend who the manager room. I went and played there

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<v Speaker 2>a few times, and it's just absolutely amazing. It's just like,

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to play golf all day every day.

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<v Speaker 2>Just drop me off here every day. That's just what

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted. And then we would go back out on

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<v Speaker 2>tour and play some awful cow paddic in Germany, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's just like, what are we doing here? Like the

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<v Speaker 2>tour should be playing on things like Swaly frosts. This

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<v Speaker 2>is just ridiculous. So I kind of it went and reverse,

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<v Speaker 2>like I didn't know how good I had it until

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<v Speaker 2>I went somewhere else. So it just it grew from that,

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<v Speaker 2>really and as I said, just that feeling of the

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<v Speaker 2>feeling you get when you're at whatever, these really really

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<v Speaker 2>really like highly ranked, amazing places. So many people all

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<v Speaker 2>this shot values and like they focused on completely the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong thing. It's just a feel when you pull up

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<v Speaker 2>Cyprus point, You're just happy, don't care. It's just a

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<v Speaker 2>good feel. Like the locker room is the same one

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<v Speaker 2>it's been for one hundred years. Like the pro shop tiny,

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<v Speaker 2>Like there's the first tea, boys, go play well, see

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<v Speaker 2>you in four hours. Like it's just everything about it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just liked golf so much more at places

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<v Speaker 2>like that that I started crazing going to places like that,

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<v Speaker 2>and it kind of built out of that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the really great places generally get it really well

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<v Speaker 1>because all the emphasis is placed in the tensions on

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<v Speaker 1>the golf course and kind of everything else comes second.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems. Yeah, it's no big gates and driveways and

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<v Speaker 2>bag drops and fountains and lake brass handles on the

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<v Speaker 2>doorknobs and silk toilet paper and all that. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>complete fluff that means absolutely nothing and contributes nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>the feel of a place. The feel of a place

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<v Speaker 2>is the tradition, and the golf comes first. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a golf club, guys, We're all here to play golf,

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<v Speaker 2>like we're gonna do it. I mean a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the I've got amazing clubhouses, and I've got all the

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<v Speaker 2>other stuff, but that's just makeup on top of like

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<v Speaker 2>a makeup on top of something beautiful, like it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>need to be there to be great. As you say,

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<v Speaker 2>focus on the golf, and almost all of them are

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<v Speaker 2>very very like tied to the history of their club,

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<v Speaker 2>like this is the way it was, so this is

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<v Speaker 2>the way we're going to keep it. And they've been

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<v Speaker 2>had obviously had great superintendents and great managers and greens

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<v Speaker 2>committees through the years that generally have preserved have understood

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<v Speaker 2>why their place was great and preserved that. The places

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<v Speaker 2>who don't understand it, with the bad supers and the

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<v Speaker 2>bad greens committees and the bad owners have thought that

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<v Speaker 2>their driving range wasn't the lockers weren't big enough, or

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<v Speaker 2>that we need three beef jerky after the fourth green

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<v Speaker 2>or something like all that stuff. The clubs that have

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<v Speaker 2>focused on the non golf stuff and the have lost

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<v Speaker 2>their way. The ones who the Cyprus Points, the pine valleys,

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<v Speaker 2>the Sunningdals, the Swinley Forests, the Shintikock Hills, they're so

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<v Speaker 2>like the are they would have been eighty years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>The smart people in the club have understood why their

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<v Speaker 2>place was great, and they've preserved that at all costs.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a reason why these places are great, and

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<v Speaker 2>the clubs that recognize that are the ones that the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that thrive and kind of get better and better

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<v Speaker 2>over time because they just create that the more history

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<v Speaker 2>and more field of the place.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a perfect analogy. I was thinking that somebody

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<v Speaker 1>was saying something along similar lines. They were talking about

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<v Speaker 1>all the architects that have worked at this one course,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was thinking in my head, I'm like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Oakmant's only had three pro golf professionals in their whole history,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know some of these clubs have had ten

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<v Speaker 1>architects work there.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like that, you know, you're trying to do too much.

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<v Speaker 1>Less is more a lot of times in golf and

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<v Speaker 1>just being focused on the core of the game, which

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<v Speaker 1>is the horse and competition is all you kind of need.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your biggest pet peeve in golf course architecture, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>The general one would be a completely a complete misunderstanding

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<v Speaker 2>of strategy. And I know the non golf architecture people

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<v Speaker 2>like with that, rolling their eyes when when people like

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<v Speaker 2>us start talking about strategy, but it's so fundamental it's

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<v Speaker 2>architecture one oh one that the whole to me has

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<v Speaker 2>to make sense. Tenet rifles. I pick thirty in augusta

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<v Speaker 2>hold that everybody knows. It's it's close to the perfect

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<v Speaker 2>hole because the more kind of the better you are,

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<v Speaker 2>and the braver you are off the tee, the easier

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<v Speaker 2>your second shot. Like and exponentially too, you're closer to

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<v Speaker 2>the hole, you have a flatter line, and you have

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<v Speaker 2>a better angle. Every yard you go away from the

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<v Speaker 2>creek or every yard that you're not capable of hitting

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<v Speaker 2>a good draw. The further away from the creek you're

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<v Speaker 2>further away, your angle gets worse and the ball gets

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<v Speaker 2>more above your feet. It's and it's a hole that

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<v Speaker 2>gives the alien handicapper a par every time. Really, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>if you want to make five on thirteen Augusta, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's your innate goal, your goal, you will make it

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<v Speaker 2>every time generally because you've got one hundred yards a

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<v Speaker 2>fairway out to the right, you've got a hundred yards

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<v Speaker 2>of a fairway to lay it up and to and

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<v Speaker 2>you've got a massive green did you hit it onto

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<v Speaker 2>with a big backstop? And you're going to have less

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<v Speaker 2>than twenty five feet for Bertie every single time if

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<v Speaker 2>you play it with that's your intent. But as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as you start trying to make a four or a three,

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<v Speaker 2>that's when you bring in all the carnage and are

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<v Speaker 2>you brave enough and are you good enough to do this?

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<v Speaker 2>And that principle that's the one that annoys me when

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<v Speaker 2>they don't get it right, And funnily enough, almost nobody

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<v Speaker 2>gets it right. Like it's such a basic principle that

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<v Speaker 2>you open up a green from one side and you

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<v Speaker 2>challenge the player to hit it to the good angle.

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<v Speaker 2>But by doing that you have a deep little bunker

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<v Speaker 2>and out of bounds fent, so you have the water

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<v Speaker 2>on that side of the hole. So you have to

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<v Speaker 2>challenge that off the tee. If you want to hit

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<v Speaker 2>the ball close. If you don't want to hit the

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<v Speaker 2>ball closer and you just want to make a par

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<v Speaker 2>or a bogey, that's fine, take the easy way, take

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<v Speaker 2>no risk, but you're really going to have no fun.

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<v Speaker 2>Like that principle. To me, it seems to be hard

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<v Speaker 2>for people to get but that when that goes wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>I completely kind of tune out and I have no interest.

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<v Speaker 2>And unfortunately it goes wrong almost everywhere these days or not,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a renaissance if you like to steal Doake's company name,

0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:42.120
<v Speaker 2>which is appropriate of architecture. That's bringing that back. But

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:48.120
<v Speaker 2>a specific one would be I don't understand why trees

0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.600
<v Speaker 2>can be in front of bunkers double hazards, like one

0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>specific little advantage. Quite often you'll you'll hit it in

0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the bunker and you'll be're screwed because you're in the bunker,

0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 2>but there's a tree in front of the bunk as well.

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 2>It's like, why is the bunker heat because I was

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 2>already going to be screwed anyway, Like I trades it

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.559
<v Speaker 2>and it gives the guy who's practiced his fairway bunker

0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>play and it's developed the skill to do that. It's

0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.000
<v Speaker 2>like saying, not you're not allowed to do that. There's

0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.360
<v Speaker 2>no point practicing your bunker play because we're just going

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.959
<v Speaker 2>to put you behind a tree, you know, double hazards

0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 2>for a really little specific example, just it just draws

0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 2>me absolutely crazy.

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.040
<v Speaker 1>I completely agree with that. Mine's always card path. But

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.240
<v Speaker 1>the strategy stuff. I played this new gil Hans that's

0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.360
<v Speaker 1>a hoopie match club and it's sure enough it's a

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.239
<v Speaker 1>match play course and they have half powers on the scorecard.

0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 1>You know they it's it's a turd against to talk

0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.880
<v Speaker 1>about your score at the course, like what you shot,

0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.439
<v Speaker 1>Like they don't want to hear it. But like I

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.640
<v Speaker 1>walked off the eighteenth hole after playing it once and

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.640
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking through it and I was like, you

0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.439
<v Speaker 1>know what, the strategy made sense on every single hole

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 1>if I took the aggressive line and I got the reward,

0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.480
<v Speaker 1>and it was almost it's like shocking to feel that

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 1>way where I was like, wow, they got all the

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:09.319
<v Speaker 1>strategy right. It's crazy how often it goes wrong. So

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.559
<v Speaker 1>do you you mentioned with the double hazard, like, do

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.839
<v Speaker 1>you think that the way the PGA Tour courses that

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.200
<v Speaker 1>they play promotes a certain type of skill and mutes

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 1>other skills and golfers.

0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:29.080
<v Speaker 2>I think so yeah. I mean the biggest probably the

0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>biggest issue I think that certainly faces American golf in

0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 2>other countries but mostly in the US, is the overwatering

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>of golf courses, the over irrigation making it really green.

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 2>And golf is always that it is more interesting when

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 2>the ball will do something when it lands. When a

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:55.080
<v Speaker 2>ball plugs all value of controlling ball flight and shape,

0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 2>and it's completely irrelevant if the ball is just going

0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.000
<v Speaker 2>to plug then plug on the fairway and then plug

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.000
<v Speaker 2>around the greens and not go anywhere when it lands.

0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 2>You are really just promoting long hitting good putters. You

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:09.760
<v Speaker 2>want to hit the ball long, and you want to

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 2>be a great putter and be great with your sixty

0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:16.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, around the greens out of rough that now

0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I understand these are going on TV and motley courses

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.600
<v Speaker 2>that are like different shades of green and brown don't

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>present perhaps to some people's eye, as well as striking

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 2>green fairways. But when you set them up soft, which

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty much exclusively the PGA Tour is set up very soft,

0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.040
<v Speaker 2>very narrow, very long, very long, rough, very kind of

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>penal style of thinking, you create guys that all you

0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.880
<v Speaker 2>want to do is go home and work on hitting long,

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 2>high drivers, long eye iron shots and be a great putter.

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Whereas say Snandrew's, for example, where the ball never stops

0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 2>when it lands, you know, it stops when it wants to.

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 2>The flight that it comes in on is very important.

0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.640
<v Speaker 2>The angle you come from is just exponentially more important

0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.600
<v Speaker 2>the angle you're on. If the ball's landing, rolling when

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:12.000
<v Speaker 2>it lands, they might not present quite as well on TV,

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 2>but they promote a much more interesting style of golf.

0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 2>So I understand the predicament. I mean Sonandraw's is an

0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 2>underachiever on TV and an overachiever when you're there, you know.

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.680
<v Speaker 2>And that's the extreme example of the whole kind of brown,

0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of no definition kind of thing. On TV. It

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>doesn't present that well, but when you play it, you

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.520
<v Speaker 2>understand that that's the best version of the game you

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:47.360
<v Speaker 2>can And you can replicate that principle on any golf

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 2>course really, and it can be not going to be

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>as brown as Snandra's. It can be greener, but it

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.240
<v Speaker 2>has to be. We have to water golf courses. We

0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 2>have to water them less because we have to let

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 2>the ball bounce when it lands. If the ball doesn't

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>bounce a role when it lands, the so much of

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the kind of depth and interest or all the shades

0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:07.399
<v Speaker 2>of gray come out of the game. And it's a

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.240
<v Speaker 2>that would be my one thing. We promote long hitting

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.639
<v Speaker 2>good putters just because of how soft and narrow and

0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:14.600
<v Speaker 2>long imposed are.

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.600
<v Speaker 1>It seems like to me, just having watched a lot

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 1>of professional goth like almost like the real the most

0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.159
<v Speaker 1>impressive talent with tour players is the ability to hit

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.280
<v Speaker 1>the ball the exact number they want, and if it rolls,

0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 1>that's when they lose control.

0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:32.200
<v Speaker 3>Is that right?

0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're very very good even before track Man. TrackMan's

0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 2>made it better and we're a little bit more fine tuned,

0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.720
<v Speaker 2>but even before that sort of technology, two guys, Yeah,

0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.240
<v Speaker 2>between under kind of two hundred yards. I mean, when

0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.520
<v Speaker 2>guys are feeling it and playing well, they could tell

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.640
<v Speaker 2>you after the ball's gone ten yards in the air

0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.280
<v Speaker 2>if it's going to go one hundred and ninety six

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.719
<v Speaker 2>or one hundred and seventy eighth or I mean, very

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:04.120
<v Speaker 2>very good at distance control. Late. It's so important to play,

0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.840
<v Speaker 2>but as you said, it kind of gets a little bit.

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 2>It's it's a little bit easier when the ball doesn't

0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.640
<v Speaker 2>roll when it lands because it's very definite, like you've

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.920
<v Speaker 2>got a definite starting point and a definite ending point.

0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.240
<v Speaker 2>There's no like, oh, did that hit a downslow board?

0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Did that hit an up slope? Was the height is

0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.000
<v Speaker 2>less relevant? I mean a high shot that goes one

0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.840
<v Speaker 2>seventy in a low shot that goes one seven. If

0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:29.879
<v Speaker 2>it's soft, they both go one seventy, But the low

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:31.199
<v Speaker 2>one that flies one seven, he's going to go one

0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.119
<v Speaker 2>eighty five. It's firm, and the high one is going

0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.440
<v Speaker 2>to go one seventy five, you know, so fly, there's

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.680
<v Speaker 2>just more depth to more shades of gray. I think

0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.920
<v Speaker 2>firm golf bring but I understand that. I understand the

0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:49.840
<v Speaker 2>presentation of the pictures and stuff, But firm golf tends

0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:54.480
<v Speaker 2>to find the class in a PGA Tour event pretty quickly.

0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, yeah.

0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:59.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's firm golf is so much tougher to

0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 1>it's just so much harder to hit numbers, and it's

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 1>it brings the precision of the game up so much

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 1>more so of all. You know, I don't want to

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.760
<v Speaker 1>get you in trouble with anybody that's like consulting architects

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 1>at like clubs or anything. If you could just blow

0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.840
<v Speaker 1>up and completely redo one TPC course, which one would

0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 1>it be?

0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I would love and I and I think, as I said,

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.040
<v Speaker 2>I think Pete Dye was great. You know. I think

0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.919
<v Speaker 2>you really understood the strategy of the game better than

0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.640
<v Speaker 2>anyone else in that era. Most of its holes make

0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.840
<v Speaker 2>sense in some way. Esthetically. I don't love the whole

0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:42.800
<v Speaker 2>like all the sleepers and stuff, but I mean in

0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.719
<v Speaker 2>some places I think they're great. I think they've got

0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>a little overdone, and I would love to have a

0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 2>go at saw brass. And I wouldn't change the routing,

0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't change the kind of in a kind of

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.359
<v Speaker 2>strategy on the course. I would just make it a

0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.199
<v Speaker 2>little bit more attractive around the edges. I think it's

0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>a little bit too center ties and neat. Now I'm

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.320
<v Speaker 2>not a big fan of those big, long flat bunkers,

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, those two hundred yard long bunkers that just

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 2>like run halfway up a hole on one side with

0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.440
<v Speaker 2>just this perfectly uniformed bank along the side of it.

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.479
<v Speaker 2>Like I'd like to see that area of Florida can

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.639
<v Speaker 2>look like Pinehurst, you know, it can look kind of

0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>raggedy and pine straw and sandy kind of. I would

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 2>love to kind of get that more to a Pinehurst

0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.560
<v Speaker 2>pine Valley style kind of thing, because I think the

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:34.440
<v Speaker 2>bones that sawgrass are there to just be. It's a

0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.399
<v Speaker 2>really really good golf course. It's just a little bit

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.240
<v Speaker 2>too neat and a little bit too kind of I

0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:47.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know, not kind of it just forced narrowness in

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.040
<v Speaker 2>a few different spots. And I think it's a wonderful course.

0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, just just the first few holes. I mean

0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you have to fade the T shot off the first

0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:57.280
<v Speaker 2>you have to draw the second shot. The second hole

0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.240
<v Speaker 2>you have to draw the T shot, fade the second shot,

0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 2>and that pattern follows almost the whole course. If you

0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.359
<v Speaker 2>don't move it both ways, you're really not going to

0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.119
<v Speaker 2>be able to shoot a great score there. And I

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.000
<v Speaker 2>think that was kind of that kind of rugged look

0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:15.159
<v Speaker 2>and some like some good looking bunkers and stuff. I

0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.000
<v Speaker 2>think it could be really really special sort grass. I

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:19.639
<v Speaker 2>think it's really close to being special.

0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when it opened, it was a lot more rugged looking.

0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.080
<v Speaker 1>I feel like it's gotten more and more capped over time,

0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:27.920
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's part of the you know, when

0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.880
<v Speaker 1>you charge four hundred dollars for somebody to come play,

0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.200
<v Speaker 1>that's what they expect. But you know, you talk about

0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.480
<v Speaker 1>those two hundred yard long traps, it's like, you know,

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.119
<v Speaker 1>for the vast majority of that bunker, it has no

0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:42.920
<v Speaker 1>effect on a tour player. And it just like I

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 1>always whenever I walk around that golf course or watch

0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:47.640
<v Speaker 1>it on TV, I think about how hard it must

0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.360
<v Speaker 1>be for a fifteen handicap.

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh, yeah, that would be a brutal course for a

0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.000
<v Speaker 2>fifteen night a gap guy. I mean, it beats us up,

0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.359
<v Speaker 2>as you're saying, and because it's such a test and

0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.720
<v Speaker 2>you really have to be moving the ball both ways,

0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and it's always windy and you've got to be greater

0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:07.080
<v Speaker 2>and the grains obviously, it's it would be I kind

0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.679
<v Speaker 2>of imagine the average, like the average nice twelve fifteen

0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.000
<v Speaker 2>hendicap guy who's a good golfer playing there. It would

0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 2>just bash you over the head all day and it

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.720
<v Speaker 2>would just be just And everybody wants to play it,

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.120
<v Speaker 2>obviously because it's seventeen in the history and the tournament,

0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and I completely get that, but it wouldn't be that

0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.440
<v Speaker 2>enjoyable experience if you did it all the time, because

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:29.000
<v Speaker 2>it would just beat you over the head all the time.

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think about if I live there and I

0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 1>could play there every day, I probably would play a

0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 1>lot of other places in town more than there, because

0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:40.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, it would be really fun to go play

0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.159
<v Speaker 1>every once in a while. But like you know, playing

0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.120
<v Speaker 1>like extreme championship golf course like isn't always the most

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 1>fun place to play on a day offer like just

0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:51.480
<v Speaker 1>for a casual round.

0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:54.040
<v Speaker 2>No, Well, I think that's the thing that's gone the

0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.040
<v Speaker 2>most wrong. If you want to pick something that is

0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.760
<v Speaker 2>going wrong. I think golf has gone great, but that

0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of Tory Pine South mentality of take this great

0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.920
<v Speaker 2>municipal on is just arguably maybe one of the best

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.639
<v Speaker 2>places of the land in the world, and you just

0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:16.480
<v Speaker 2>make it the hardest, longest slog that completely detracts from

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:18.600
<v Speaker 2>where you're at because it's such a beatdown. It's like

0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.000
<v Speaker 2>somebody bashing you in here with the sledgehammer eighteen times.

0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:25.960
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's missing the point. I wouldn't want to

0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:27.920
<v Speaker 2>go play that. When people ask you, I go play

0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:30.639
<v Speaker 2>Tory Times, I'm like, no, you're not going to have

0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.680
<v Speaker 2>any fun. Go for a walk around the property shore

0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.720
<v Speaker 2>because it's a stunning place, but it's so hard that

0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 2>it's not enjoyable. I mean, with the exception of probably

0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:45.119
<v Speaker 2>Pine Valley and Oakmont, which are outliers really in the

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 2>great golf courses, in that their intent was to be really,

0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>really difficult and just they happen to end up great.

0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, generally, if difficulty is the mission, you don't

0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:00.560
<v Speaker 2>end up with something great. Generally, Oakmond Pine Valley of

0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:03.960
<v Speaker 2>somehow got out of that for lots of other reasons.

0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:08.440
<v Speaker 2>But the great golf courses usually have lots of width

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.720
<v Speaker 2>and lots of options, and if a tool player wants

0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:14.480
<v Speaker 2>to go shoot even par or something at Augusta, it's

0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:17.000
<v Speaker 2>really not that difficult if his intent is to shoot

0:24:17.040 --> 0:24:19.360
<v Speaker 2>even par. As soon as he starts trying to make birdies,

0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:22.439
<v Speaker 2>that vantage comes and he shoots seventy eight. But they

0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:26.080
<v Speaker 2>allow everybody to play. These top fifty golf courses generally

0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:31.840
<v Speaker 2>easier for an aiden handicapper and harder for a scratch player,

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, And I think that that's what has got

0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:38.439
<v Speaker 2>got when when places go wrong, that's the point they miss.

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:40.320
<v Speaker 2>I think you want to make golf as easy as

0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>you can for the aiding handicapper, because it's already really

0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:45.159
<v Speaker 2>hard for him. You know, a dead flat hole with

0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:48.520
<v Speaker 2>no hazards and like bumper bowling version of golf is

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.480
<v Speaker 2>still really hard for that guy. But the scratch guy,

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:53.920
<v Speaker 2>he needs the challenge. And I think that Snandrews. The

0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Augusta is, the Shinnecocks, the Nationals, the pick any of

0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the Chicago golf clubs, the Cyprus Points, I mean, you

0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:04.560
<v Speaker 2>pick any number of them, and generally they're they're easier

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.960
<v Speaker 2>for the alien handicap guy. But they're much more difficult

0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.240
<v Speaker 2>for the two level guy or the scratch guy, because

0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:14.879
<v Speaker 2>the scratch guy wants to beat his head shoot two

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:16.320
<v Speaker 2>or three under par, and to shoot two or three

0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:18.600
<v Speaker 2>under par, you've got to start making some taking some risks,

0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.160
<v Speaker 2>and then you'd start getting into all the carnage if

0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:25.240
<v Speaker 2>you just want to shoot, like the fairways usually really wide,

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and you're just when you're a handicap and you want

0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.159
<v Speaker 2>to just bogey every hole. It's relatively easy if your

0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:31.240
<v Speaker 2>goal to boge every hole is to do that, because

0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:33.639
<v Speaker 2>they give you a lot of room to avoid the

0:25:33.720 --> 0:25:36.439
<v Speaker 2>problems if you're willing to give up birdies and pars.

0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:41.720
<v Speaker 2>That aspect, I think is kind of where it went wrong.

0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:43.600
<v Speaker 2>It's like, we're just going to make golf hard because

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:45.280
<v Speaker 2>people want it hard. And when you make it hard

0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:50.960
<v Speaker 2>across the board, it's just it's just something that's too hard.

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:53.800
<v Speaker 2>You need to have challenge, but too hard just for

0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:55.879
<v Speaker 2>hard's sake. It just gets boring after a while and

0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:58.600
<v Speaker 2>you choose to do something else because it's just it's

0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:00.439
<v Speaker 2>beating you over the head, and where's the It's got

0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 2>to give you a few thrills here and there, you know,

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:03.840
<v Speaker 2>you've got to find your ball and you're going to

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:05.399
<v Speaker 2>be able to get to par fours in two and

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:11.600
<v Speaker 2>past threeson one. For that exams that matter, it's that

0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:14.560
<v Speaker 2>if you if you went by that principle, I think

0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:16.040
<v Speaker 2>you really it's hard to go wrong. How do we

0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 2>make this easier for adian handing hebron and harder for

0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:22.680
<v Speaker 2>a scratch guy. I think golf courses that tick that

0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:25.960
<v Speaker 2>box are usually almost all the way there.

0:26:26.720 --> 0:26:29.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And a good way to do that is with

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:32.120
<v Speaker 1>don't water it too much, because then you know, when

0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:34.840
<v Speaker 1>a guy duffs it, it rolls for a while, and

0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.800
<v Speaker 1>it's rolling towards the hole, and for the good player

0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 1>it makes the margin for error slimmer when they're trying

0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:42.240
<v Speaker 1>to get out of pin. It's like, you know, it

0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:45.160
<v Speaker 1>all goes hand in hand, and it seems pretty simple.

0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:49.080
<v Speaker 2>Exactly. I mean, I know people love green and that's fine.

0:26:49.160 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 2>And when you start stop watering so much, you still

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:53.120
<v Speaker 2>got to water to make grass grow. I mean, we're

0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:55.320
<v Speaker 2>not talking about not watering, but just so the ball

0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:59.480
<v Speaker 2>does something when it lands. What really first made me

0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:01.880
<v Speaker 2>think about this was I was at Pinehurst for the Open.

0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:05.040
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember which one I think the most recent.

0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:09.120
<v Speaker 1>One, but one, yeah, twenty fourteen, right, yeah.

0:27:09.960 --> 0:27:11.840
<v Speaker 2>And I was in the bar at the Pinehurst Hotel

0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:14.119
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and I was just sitting there with my

0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>body having a beer or something, and the table next

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:17.639
<v Speaker 2>to us, so like, oh, we started chatting about the

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:19.919
<v Speaker 2>tournament and stuff like that, and they say, yeah, there

0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:22.600
<v Speaker 2>were snowbirds down there and they played there every winter.

0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:25.080
<v Speaker 2>But they came down to watch the Open. And I said, well,

0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:26.639
<v Speaker 2>which course do you like the best? Do you ever

0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:28.119
<v Speaker 2>play number two? Or is it too hard? And they

0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>said no, no, no, no, no, you don't know what

0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:31.600
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about. Number two is the easiest for us.

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:34.040
<v Speaker 2>That's the one we like the most because it's the

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.320
<v Speaker 2>easiest for us. All the other ones they're the hard

0:27:36.359 --> 0:27:38.879
<v Speaker 2>ones because they've got forced carries and stuff everywhere, and

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.640
<v Speaker 2>it blew me away. It's like Pinet's number two. It's

0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:46.560
<v Speaker 2>so difficult for us. It's out. It's just incredible. But

0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:49.439
<v Speaker 2>he explained, this guy explained the husband and wife. They

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:51.399
<v Speaker 2>explained that they could put it from everywhere. They have

0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.120
<v Speaker 2>no forced carries anywhere. The ball rolls a long way.

0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:56.320
<v Speaker 2>It's quite easy to keep it out of the trouble.

0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:58.200
<v Speaker 2>If feds that's their only mission. They get it around

0:27:58.200 --> 0:27:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the green, they roll their putter up onto the green.

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.119
<v Speaker 2>They one part for par or they're two put for bogey,

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:03.879
<v Speaker 2>and they're like all the other ones. We've got to

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:06.320
<v Speaker 2>hit like it shots over water and deep bunkers and

0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:10.359
<v Speaker 2>all that, and pinehas gives the average player room to

0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 2>do what he can do. But at the same time

0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 2>it presents such a challenge. I mean, the hardest iron

0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>shot you could be in the middle of the fairway

0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:21.960
<v Speaker 2>all day at Pineha's for a two level goal. For

0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.000
<v Speaker 2>if you even par from the middle of the fairway,

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:26.919
<v Speaker 2>if you hit twelve greens in regulation for the day,

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 2>you've had a great day. And that's somebody giving you.

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:34.280
<v Speaker 2>It is so hard for us, and it just crystallized

0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:35.760
<v Speaker 2>this idea in my hands, like, well, what, that's the

0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 2>principle that's perfect. Number two was their favorite and it

0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:41.400
<v Speaker 2>was also my favorite, And it was my favorite because

0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 2>it was so difficult, and it was their favorite because

0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>it was kind of relatively easy for them. So it

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:45.600
<v Speaker 2>was just amazing.

0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah to me, I'm seeing Painehurst the next week for

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:54.960
<v Speaker 1>the first time, and like, as I've thought about through

0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:58.600
<v Speaker 1>Open a US Open Championship courses like that one to

0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.240
<v Speaker 1>me seems like the one that gets it the most

0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 1>right in terms of it's got with it's got angles.

0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:09.280
<v Speaker 1>But like, the greens are so interesting and so difficult that, like,

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:12.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, eighteen handicaps are only going to hit four

0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:16.000
<v Speaker 1>or five greens in a round, you know, regardless of

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 1>what type of greens they are. That's where the challenge

0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:21.560
<v Speaker 1>has to come to really challenge you guys.

0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:25.520
<v Speaker 2>It seems like, yeah, the greens. I'll be interested to

0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:29.160
<v Speaker 2>see what you think about the greens. They're very repelling. Obviously,

0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:31.800
<v Speaker 2>they're all they're up in the air and they kind

0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>of they roll off on all four sides, and they're

0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:37.040
<v Speaker 2>incredibly uncomfortable. It makes you uncomfortable, which is what a

0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:38.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of great holes do. They make you what they

0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:41.040
<v Speaker 2>make you sort of take on shots you don't really

0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:43.320
<v Speaker 2>want to, you know, but you know you kind of

0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:44.880
<v Speaker 2>have to take it on anyway, because if you don't

0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:46.800
<v Speaker 2>take it on and swing with real conviction, you're going

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:48.200
<v Speaker 2>to miss the green and you're going to make a bug.

0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 2>So you've really got to play with conviction and really

0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:52.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of know what you're doing. And it's a little

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:54.120
<v Speaker 2>bit I don't know if I'd want to play Partners

0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:58.400
<v Speaker 2>number two every day, but it's a brilliant place and

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:00.520
<v Speaker 2>it's got to talk about great fear, and it's got

0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 2>such a great feel and the Crenshaw core redo is

0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:09.440
<v Speaker 2>just so brilliant. Like it just it didn't change Pinehurst.

0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:11.480
<v Speaker 2>It just brought it back to what it should be,

0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:15.040
<v Speaker 2>at least from an aesthetic perspective. And it got rid

0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 2>of the silly ruff and irrigated the center line the

0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.360
<v Speaker 2>cent line irrigation as opposed to throwing the irrigation into

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the rough and stuff. I mean, they did some really

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:24.680
<v Speaker 2>really good stuff and it should be one of the

0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:27.360
<v Speaker 2>benchmarks for remodels around the country because they did. They

0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:29.920
<v Speaker 2>did a lot of stuff right. So I think you'll

0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:31.840
<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. I think you'll be surprised at how extreme

0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:34.320
<v Speaker 2>some of the greens are, but I think you'll enjoy it. Yeah.

0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's the only way to challenge like a

0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.840
<v Speaker 1>player of your caliber is to like in today's game,

0:30:40.920 --> 0:30:43.640
<v Speaker 1>it's to become driver wedges, to have greens that make

0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 1>you uncomfortable with a wedge in your hand, and.

0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:49.680
<v Speaker 2>That does that. Promists will do that. There is no

0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>distance away from the green that is truly comfortable until

0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 2>you're on it.

0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:57.400
<v Speaker 1>So let's get it, yeah out of here. On a

0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:02.480
<v Speaker 1>few quick questions. So you get one course on each continent.

0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:03.880
<v Speaker 3>What are you picking?

0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay, North America, let's say, Well, that's a difficult one

0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 2>because North America might have the best bunch of golf

0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:22.040
<v Speaker 2>courses there is. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna The obvious

0:31:22.080 --> 0:31:24.240
<v Speaker 2>would be Pine Valley. If you've been to Pine Valley,

0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and anyone who has would say the same thing. But

0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna stay by that. I'm going to go National

0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Golf Links of America. I just think it's it's it's

0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 2>everything that's great about the template whole concept, and it's

0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:37.520
<v Speaker 2>it's it's that the beauty of North American press Wick

0:31:37.680 --> 0:31:39.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of presented in such a beautiful way, and like

0:31:39.760 --> 0:31:41.600
<v Speaker 2>it maybe one of the more beautiful places in the world.

0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just it's just everything golf could be.

0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:46.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just fun. It's just a fun adventure. It's just

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:51.920
<v Speaker 2>an adventure, and it's fun. Europe, I guess I already

0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:56.280
<v Speaker 2>And Swindley Forest I think is my favorite. Now if

0:31:56.280 --> 0:32:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I want to pick the best, I'm I think Snandra's

0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:08.280
<v Speaker 2>is our sports measuring stick. I think everyone should go

0:32:08.360 --> 0:32:10.280
<v Speaker 2>to the Old Course, and I think everyone should play

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 2>it as much as they can, walk it as much

0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:14.040
<v Speaker 2>as they can, and watch people play it as much

0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:17.720
<v Speaker 2>as they can, and it really after a while, it

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.520
<v Speaker 2>might it might be like some music for people to

0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.640
<v Speaker 2>get back to music, kind of analogy. It might sound

0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 2>like noise at first, but after a while you begin

0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>to hear the melody like the Old Course. That is

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 2>what it is. It's just it's everything all of a sudden.

0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 2>It might go off day one, or it might take

0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.800
<v Speaker 2>fifty days, but eventually the light bulb is going to

0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:40.959
<v Speaker 2>go up and go ah ah, I get it now.

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:44.360
<v Speaker 2>But that's the point, and it's so obvious and it's

0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:49.080
<v Speaker 2>so amazing, and it's it's if you put me on

0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:50.600
<v Speaker 2>one golf course in Europe for the rest of my

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:52.640
<v Speaker 2>life to play. If it wasn't the Sween Leaders, because

0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:54.120
<v Speaker 2>I love the field of the place, it would be

0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:58.800
<v Speaker 2>the Old Course because it's just it's just as I said,

0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.920
<v Speaker 2>it's it's the sports measuring stick and it needs it's respected,

0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:03.600
<v Speaker 2>but it needs to be respected more. It needs to

0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:06.440
<v Speaker 2>be visited by everybody. It's the Vatican or it's Macca.

0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 2>It's like, that's that's the thing, that the whole game

0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:12.880
<v Speaker 2>is built around. The principles that are that are exemplified

0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:19.720
<v Speaker 2>best at the Old Course. Australasia. Content I don't. I

0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:22.120
<v Speaker 2>can't talk South America because I've never been there. So

0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.600
<v Speaker 2>pick me one. He's the dog here of the dog.

0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 2>What's that? Well?

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:29.760
<v Speaker 1>I played the Jockey Club in Argentina.

0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's supposed to be great, right.

0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:35.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good one.

0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:38.959
<v Speaker 2>All right, So I'll go with you on that one.

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Jockey Club Asia, I'm not sure either. I haven't played

0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:50.760
<v Speaker 2>much architecturally significant stuff in Asia, not enough to like

0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:53.320
<v Speaker 2>make any comments. I know India's got to cut the

0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:55.400
<v Speaker 2>great ones. Japan's got a cut the great ones? Is

0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>it Herono? I think it supposed to be great. I

0:33:59.840 --> 0:34:02.000
<v Speaker 2>haven't played enough there. I've played a couple of tournaments there.

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:04.240
<v Speaker 2>We play this cool Visa t Hayo thing, which is

0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>not that amazing course, but it sits at the bottom

0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.359
<v Speaker 2>of Mount Fuji. It's a beautiful kind of places because

0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.080
<v Speaker 2>you look up at the elusive Mountain or whatever they

0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>call it. It's in the clouds. It's out of the clouds.

0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:14.840
<v Speaker 2>There's snow on the top of it. The mountain to

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.120
<v Speaker 2>draw when you're a kid. So I can't really speak

0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:19.040
<v Speaker 2>for Asia, but we'll put Australia in Asia because there's

0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:21.719
<v Speaker 2>a lot of Australia and raw. Melbourne is by far

0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:26.120
<v Speaker 2>and away my favorite course in Australia. It's so good

0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:29.040
<v Speaker 2>it's it baffles every time I play. It's on those courses.

0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 2>I like it more every time I play it. Of

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:34.040
<v Speaker 2>the two, the West Course is the one of my favorite.

0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:37.879
<v Speaker 2>It's incredibly short now, unfortunately, but I'll often go out

0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>just with a persimmon wood and a half set blade putterer,

0:34:40.560 --> 0:34:44.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, go old school, and I never never don't

0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:46.839
<v Speaker 2>it's even a golf course. I'd go playing the rain

0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:50.080
<v Speaker 2>for fun, you know. It's just I just love everything

0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:50.400
<v Speaker 2>about it.

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:51.640
<v Speaker 3>Would that be a good.

0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:55.319
<v Speaker 1>Format for the PGA Tour, is like a half set,

0:34:55.440 --> 0:34:57.560
<v Speaker 1>like a six or a nine club event.

0:34:59.040 --> 0:35:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I think that would be great. I think a half

0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.360
<v Speaker 2>set whatever, Yeah, six club, nine club, pick one. I

0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>mean I think the less clubs are more interesting. To

0:35:06.320 --> 0:35:09.279
<v Speaker 2>a point three clubs is probably a bit low, but

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:13.600
<v Speaker 2>like six would be really interesting, right that would be

0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:16.040
<v Speaker 2>a fun time, especially around a course that it would suit,

0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, like a maybe it's too small for modern

0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.480
<v Speaker 2>golf with all our stuff, but you find but you

0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:24.400
<v Speaker 2>really want to have an event there and it really worked.

0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Maybe do the sixth the six club thing there. Maybe

0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:29.520
<v Speaker 2>it's only thirty six holes, but maybe you make all

0:35:29.520 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 2>the players up and everybody talks about or why did

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:34.759
<v Speaker 2>you pick three one? I mean, I can't believe you

0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:35.920
<v Speaker 2>put a three on and you've got to go a

0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:37.440
<v Speaker 2>five one and then I hope or I mean you'd

0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:40.880
<v Speaker 2>have those great kind of debates about what everyone was

0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:42.279
<v Speaker 2>picking and why they were doing it, and do you

0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:44.080
<v Speaker 2>have a sixty or do you just go fifty four

0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:45.960
<v Speaker 2>or do you go straight from pitching wedge to sixty

0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:47.759
<v Speaker 2>or do you go nine nine to fifty four? Or

0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>like it'd be great, Yeah, it would. That'd be fun.

0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that would be super cool.

0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:56.520
<v Speaker 1>You could do it at like a you know, a

0:35:56.640 --> 0:35:59.880
<v Speaker 1>sixty four hundred yard classic course too, which would be

0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:00.879
<v Speaker 1>super fun.

0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:04.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. There'd be so many courses that are so great,

0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:06.759
<v Speaker 2>and unfortunately almost all of those really a great ones,

0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:08.920
<v Speaker 2>they're probably getting too short, except for the ones that

0:36:09.000 --> 0:36:14.359
<v Speaker 2>the usgas manipulated that you go on these really great

0:36:14.560 --> 0:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and have like the old school classic or whatever you

0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:18.720
<v Speaker 2>want to call it, Like we can use modern stuff,

0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:21.640
<v Speaker 2>but like less clubs. And it would be really really

0:36:21.719 --> 0:36:23.800
<v Speaker 2>interesting because guys might not take a driver, you know,

0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:26.160
<v Speaker 2>three wood might be their max, you know, because they

0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:28.120
<v Speaker 2>might want more clubs down the other end of the back.

0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I think it would be giving guys the

0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.120
<v Speaker 2>choice of which one is to choose and seeing how

0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 2>they thought was best to attack the course. It'd be

0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:35.640
<v Speaker 2>great to be a brilliant event.

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.080
<v Speaker 1>And then you could have a whole preview show where

0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Phil just walks you through his philosophy on each one

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:41.920
<v Speaker 1>of his clubs.

0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so that would be. He'd write a novel on

0:36:47.040 --> 0:36:47.319
<v Speaker 2>that one.

0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:50.200
<v Speaker 3>He might carry two drivers.

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:55.200
<v Speaker 2>He is maybe he is one of the more interesting

0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.960
<v Speaker 2>dinner party guests there is on tour. I mean he

0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>he he believes with such conviction, whether he kind of

0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:08.520
<v Speaker 2>deep down knowses the kind of crap or not. He

0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:12.880
<v Speaker 2>just loves trying to get one up in front of everybody.

0:37:12.920 --> 0:37:16.520
<v Speaker 2>And he's obviously very very smart, and he spends a

0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:18.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of time trying to outthink the whole thing, and

0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:21.160
<v Speaker 2>it's just fascinating. Some of the stuff he comes up with.

0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:25.200
<v Speaker 2>He's absolutely brilliant. Who goes to Tory Pines without a drive?

0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.200
<v Speaker 2>The longest he was open in history in two thousand

0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:29.640
<v Speaker 2>and eight, he went with two three woods. He didn't

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:31.360
<v Speaker 2>go with a driver. And then he goes to the

0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:33.319
<v Speaker 2>Masters like well, the year before I think he went

0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:36.919
<v Speaker 2>to the Masters with two drivers of no freewood like brilliant, tough,

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:39.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, and when he tells you for ten minutes

0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 2>and he'll sell his theory, is that? Yeah, you know what,

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:44.600
<v Speaker 2>he's probably right there, you know, because he sells it

0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:45.920
<v Speaker 2>so well, it's fantastic.

0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:52.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he's one of the kind. What about Africa?

0:37:54.320 --> 0:38:00.480
<v Speaker 2>No, I haven't played enough well doerbed, but maybe pretty.

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:01.800
<v Speaker 3>Good in it, I think, Yeah, I think that's a

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:02.239
<v Speaker 3>good one.

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:09.600
<v Speaker 2>I haven't played enough to to make up enough of

0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:11.000
<v Speaker 2>an educated statement on that one.

0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Really, Yeah, yeah, that's all right. Next quick one here.

0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:19.560
<v Speaker 1>If conditions are right, firm and fast, what's the winning

0:38:19.640 --> 0:38:21.600
<v Speaker 1>score at Shinnacock this year?

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:31.680
<v Speaker 2>It'll be overpower, I would imagine, depending on the teas.

0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:37.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they've built some like Godzilla level teas, but

0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:39.799
<v Speaker 2>they don't necessarily use them, right, I mean a lot

0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:41.920
<v Speaker 2>of these openmont They threw a few teas in that

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:46.399
<v Speaker 2>we didn't really scare very much. You know, they put

0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:48.799
<v Speaker 2>them there in case conditions get to the point where

0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:53.160
<v Speaker 2>they might want to need that right I have. It's

0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:55.360
<v Speaker 2>such the way the land is there, it's never going

0:38:55.440 --> 0:39:00.239
<v Speaker 2>to get soft. It's's hard to imagine shinnacock too off.

0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:03.560
<v Speaker 2>It might be raining, but it's still going to have

0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:06.680
<v Speaker 2>that firm element because of the sand underneath. So I

0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>would I think it'll be very close to par. I

0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:14.080
<v Speaker 2>don't think it would be won't be the Aaron Hills scoreline.

0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 2>I think it'll be more. If you're even par after

0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:19.759
<v Speaker 2>three rounds, you're going to have a real chance.

0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.480
<v Speaker 3>That's uh. I hope that that happens.

0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:25.960
<v Speaker 1>I wish they wouldn't have a narrowed at That really

0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:26.719
<v Speaker 1>kind of buged me.

0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:30.560
<v Speaker 2>The narrowing. I don't mind the lengthening as much because

0:39:30.600 --> 0:39:32.520
<v Speaker 2>we do hit the ball so far now, But the

0:39:32.640 --> 0:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>narrowing is the offensive stuff because you lose some of

0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 2>the angles and stuff of the You lose the intent

0:39:37.800 --> 0:39:41.200
<v Speaker 2>and some of these greens which are unhittable from say

0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:43.160
<v Speaker 2>where the middle of the fairway is now are very

0:39:43.239 --> 0:39:45.200
<v Speaker 2>hittable from where the edge of the fairway used to be.

0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:48.600
<v Speaker 2>And now that the edge of the fairway isn't where

0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:52.239
<v Speaker 2>it used to be, is now rough. You don't have

0:39:52.840 --> 0:39:56.920
<v Speaker 2>McDonald rainer angle that they said, wow, unless you're good,

0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:58.839
<v Speaker 2>if you can get it here, you can play this hole.

0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 2>If you can't, you can't. I don't like it when

0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:04.160
<v Speaker 2>that stuff gets taken away, But the length, I don't

0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:08.200
<v Speaker 2>mind car as much because in this dynagic s out

0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:09.759
<v Speaker 2>of affairs, we kind of native bit length.

0:40:11.080 --> 0:40:14.759
<v Speaker 1>That's I did this article on AUGUSTA, and I looked

0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:17.239
<v Speaker 1>at the holes that they've narrowed with the trees like

0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:22.200
<v Speaker 1>eleven and versus the holes that they've just lengthened and

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:26.799
<v Speaker 1>haven't really added trees, and it's it's unbelievable, like those

0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:29.280
<v Speaker 1>holes that they added the trees that they're just trading

0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:34.840
<v Speaker 1>birdies and bogies for double bogies, so you know, like

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 1>they're just you know, they're losing excitement and interest in

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:40.240
<v Speaker 1>the game because people aren't able to get to certain

0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.239
<v Speaker 1>pins with the right angle. And then the holes that

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 1>they've just lengthened have like stayed the distribution over the

0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:49.359
<v Speaker 1>last fifty years has stayed like exactly the same.

0:40:50.520 --> 0:40:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, because we hit the ball whatever, let's say fifty

0:40:53.080 --> 0:40:57.919
<v Speaker 2>odd longer than in nine fifty or whatever it would be. Yeah,

0:40:58.200 --> 0:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>it's probably and I know they say why you should

0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:04.680
<v Speaker 2>be hitting seven eines inn and all that, but a

0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.000
<v Speaker 2>two hundred yard shots are two hundred yard shot, you know,

0:41:07.200 --> 0:41:09.200
<v Speaker 2>like seven nine to two hundred yards and a four

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:11.000
<v Speaker 2>he two hundred yard. Yeah, the seven eydes a little

0:41:11.040 --> 0:41:13.840
<v Speaker 2>easier to too, or two hundred, but the real inherent

0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:16.160
<v Speaker 2>difficulty in that is the fact that it's two hundred

0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:19.719
<v Speaker 2>yards and the fact that a seven eine now is

0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:22.400
<v Speaker 2>probably what a five iron was lost wise back then,

0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:24.560
<v Speaker 2>So it's really like a five on anyway, right, But

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:29.239
<v Speaker 2>the narrowness, Yeah, like seven and seventeen are the ones

0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I disliked the leaf or the new trees at the Masters.

0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>The seventeenth Green might be one of the more interesting

0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:38.680
<v Speaker 2>greens ever built in the world. And the whole point

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:42.600
<v Speaker 2>was especially though, because it's kind of a it's high

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:44.640
<v Speaker 2>in the middle and it goes down to the right

0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:46.040
<v Speaker 2>and it goes down to the left. Kind of the

0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:47.839
<v Speaker 2>point is the pins on the left. You actually want

0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:50.200
<v Speaker 2>to drive it up the left, which is counterintuitive, right,

0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.399
<v Speaker 2>That's why it's a clever green. And when the pins

0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:53.680
<v Speaker 2>on the right, you want to blow it as far

0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:55.399
<v Speaker 2>right as you can to kind of be landing into

0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:57.400
<v Speaker 2>that upslope on the right inside of the green. You

0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:01.279
<v Speaker 2>can't do that anymore. Everybody's dictated to hit from the

0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:05.600
<v Speaker 2>same spot. So if you don't hit the if you

0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:06.880
<v Speaker 2>hit the middle of the fairway, it's kind of a

0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:08.920
<v Speaker 2>part three because everybody's hitting their second shot from the

0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:16.480
<v Speaker 2>same spot. It's clearly more interesting when the fan, the patrons,

0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:18.640
<v Speaker 2>if you like, behind the green. I seen one guy

0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:20.279
<v Speaker 2>come in from the middle of the fifteenth seway and

0:42:20.320 --> 0:42:22.279
<v Speaker 2>another guy coming in from over near the seventh green

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.360
<v Speaker 2>to the same pin. It's like maybe two different theories

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.880
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and that is interesting, much more interesting than

0:42:27.920 --> 0:42:30.359
<v Speaker 2>two guys hitting it from the same spot. Well, that's

0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:30.879
<v Speaker 2>I think.

0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:34.960
<v Speaker 1>And like you look back at the nineteen eighty six Masters,

0:42:35.000 --> 0:42:37.719
<v Speaker 1>where Jack was hitting a second shot on the seventeenth,

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:40.040
<v Speaker 1>he would have been in like a canopy of trees

0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:42.080
<v Speaker 1>and he would that the most one of the most

0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:46.320
<v Speaker 1>famous moments in in major championship history would never have

0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 1>happened with the vern lunkuis yesterda car like if he'd

0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:51.000
<v Speaker 1>played that today.

0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, and I think yeah, with lack of width,

0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:03.640
<v Speaker 2>is is kind of deciding that your greens and your

0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.040
<v Speaker 2>bunkers are your greens aren't good enough. You know, If

0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:08.719
<v Speaker 2>your greens are good enough and they're interesting enough, then

0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:12.080
<v Speaker 2>it really you don't need any fairway trouble really, because

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:14.080
<v Speaker 2>if the greens good enough, there's one really good spot

0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:16.319
<v Speaker 2>to come in from and lots of bad ones angle wise,

0:43:16.520 --> 0:43:18.680
<v Speaker 2>And this obviously takes into account it needs to be firm,

0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:23.200
<v Speaker 2>but if you get everything right, it doesn't need to

0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:28.040
<v Speaker 2>be that narrow. Really, it really doesn't. And and this

0:43:28.200 --> 0:43:30.440
<v Speaker 2>isn't just from a golfer who doesn't like hitting the

0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:32.239
<v Speaker 2>ball in the rough. I just think it's not about

0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:34.640
<v Speaker 2>easy or hard. It's about interest. It's about making it

0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:37.359
<v Speaker 2>more interesting, because what's going to bring you back next

0:43:37.400 --> 0:43:40.160
<v Speaker 2>time to while the watch and play it is how

0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:42.640
<v Speaker 2>interesting it is, how many different ways there are to

0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:47.000
<v Speaker 2>do it. When you narrow stuff down so much, you

0:43:47.200 --> 0:43:50.680
<v Speaker 2>dictate where people have to play it, just it loses

0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:52.960
<v Speaker 2>a little few again, those shades of gray kind of

0:43:53.000 --> 0:43:54.680
<v Speaker 2>get lost a little bit because it's a bit more

0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:57.239
<v Speaker 2>black and white it's fair way good, rough bad, or

0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:01.600
<v Speaker 2>trees bad. You know. So, yeah, I've got no problem

0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:05.960
<v Speaker 2>with the length. Yeah, I mean I do in some ways,

0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:07.839
<v Speaker 2>but not really. It kind of needs to happen if

0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:10.200
<v Speaker 2>we're going to play the course. But it's the it's

0:44:10.280 --> 0:44:13.520
<v Speaker 2>the inherent kind of misunderstanding of the strategy and taking

0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:14.360
<v Speaker 2>the strategy away.

0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a I mean, like I think about myself

0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:20.640
<v Speaker 1>and amateur stuff, like mid am stuff, and like my

0:44:20.800 --> 0:44:22.960
<v Speaker 1>strength and my game is hitting the ball straight. So

0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 1>like it's funny because like the golf courses I hate

0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:29.080
<v Speaker 1>the most that are the most narrow. I like playing

0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:31.759
<v Speaker 1>in competition the most, like because it gives me an advantage.

0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:36.279
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's kind of stupid, but it's it's not.

0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:38.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we're also it's all self interested at the

0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:41.640
<v Speaker 2>end of the day. Like straight it is like narrow courses,

0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:44.759
<v Speaker 2>and wild it is like wide courses, and long it

0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:47.680
<v Speaker 2>is like long courses. And yeah, I mean it's gotta

0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:48.880
<v Speaker 2>be some selfish just involved.

0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:53.160
<v Speaker 1>So we do this overrated underrated segment just quick, you

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:56.719
<v Speaker 1>know whether whether this thing is overrated or underrated.

0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:05.480
<v Speaker 3>So kangaroos underwrited the concept of par.

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Overrated harbor Town overrited.

0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:16.000
<v Speaker 3>That's how that's a good take. I don't know.

0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:20.480
<v Speaker 1>I think Harbor Town's the one I struggle because, like

0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:23.880
<v Speaker 1>in the history of architecture, I think it's underrated, but

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:25.640
<v Speaker 1>playing it today is overrated.

0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I think the way the tour players talk about it,

0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:31.880
<v Speaker 2>they talk about it in the same breath as Riviera

0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:34.520
<v Speaker 2>and Pebble Beach and stuff, and it's just not that.

0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:36.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very interesting and it's very good, but

0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>it's not that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not saying it's not good.

0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:40.879
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying it's ever writed. Yeah.

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a riviera. I feel like it is in

0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:47.920
<v Speaker 1>a class of itself. It's an above all else on

0:45:48.280 --> 0:45:49.719
<v Speaker 1>like the regular PGA tour.

0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:53.279
<v Speaker 3>I think, all right, well, Jeff, hey, thanks so much

0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:53.799
<v Speaker 3>for your time.

0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:58.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm really appreciative, and good luck this week and we'll

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:00.239
<v Speaker 1>we'll catch up Dune.

0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:02.799
<v Speaker 2>No worries, it sounds good. Thanks man.

0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:06.480
<v Speaker 3>You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do

0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:07.759
<v Speaker 3>the digging for you.

0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 2>H