1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,360
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.

2
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,800
Speaker 1: If you miss part one, check it out in iTunes,

3
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,840
Speaker 1: on our website, or on Stitcher or wherever else you

4
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. In Part two, we dive into how

5
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: Jeff got into golf course architecture, what he loves about strategy,

6
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:24,240
Speaker 1: what he thinks about PGA tour setups, what TPC course

7
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: he'd like to renovate, and much more. Without further ado,

8
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,080
Speaker 1: here's Part two of our conversation with Jeff Ogilvie.

9
00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When

10
00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

11
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,160
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a brid egg

12
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagridagg bride egg.

13
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.

14
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,840
Speaker 1: You're a big fan of golf course architecture. In fact,

15
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 1: now you're you're part of a firm. I mean you're

16
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,760
Speaker 1: with Mike Clayton, Mike kak Ing and Ashley Mead OCCM.

17
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,200
Speaker 1: So how did you get interested in the subject at first?

18
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,320
Speaker 2: Well, at first, I mean I grew up in Melbourne,

19
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,040
Speaker 2: right right, next door to Royal Melbourne. Basically I wasn't

20
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,119
Speaker 2: a member, but I was a caddy at rock Roll Melbourne.

21
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 2: I was pretty young, thirteen fourteen, and if you're a caddy,

22
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 2: they let you play the East Course after four point

23
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 2: thirty pm. So I wasn't a caddy to caddy. I

24
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,960
Speaker 2: had no interest in caddying. I caddied a little bit.

25
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 2: Caddies were kind of dying in Australia a little bit

26
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 2: at that point. It was kind of dying off. People

27
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 2: weren't doing it as much. But I'd caddy every now

28
00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 2: and then. But I really did it just so I

29
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 2: could play Royal Melbourne at after four point thirty and

30
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 2: I all summer. Mama dropped me off there at four

31
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: twenty eight and I would walk straight to the first

32
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 2: tea on the East Course and I would play until

33
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 2: dark and should pick me up. Every now and then

34
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:14,639
Speaker 2: i'd sneak a few holes in the west, which we

35
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,120
Speaker 2: weren't supposed to do. Which is the better of the two,

36
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 2: I mean, they're both amazing. So I did that and

37
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:27,239
Speaker 2: I joined Victoria Golf Club when I was sixteen. But

38
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 2: I grew up on the sand belt and I just

39
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,280
Speaker 2: thought which are. Clearly, everybody who knows golf course architecture

40
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 2: has any interest knows that the sand Belt, whether they've

41
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 2: been there or not, they understand that they're some of

42
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 2: the world's best courses. I just thought that was normal,

43
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 2: so I didn't I didn't know how treated. I mean,

44
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 2: everyone told me how good Royal Melbourne was, and these

45
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 2: courses are great and they're better than everywhere, but I

46
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 2: didn't really. We all thought that everything in America was better.

47
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,919
Speaker 2: The Australian attitude traditionally was always, oh, everything in America

48
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,520
Speaker 2: is that's always on TV. They're green, and the sanders white,

49
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,760
Speaker 2: and the water is blue and big pine trees and

50
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,959
Speaker 2: everything that we didn't have we thought was great. But

51
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,120
Speaker 2: then as I as I kind of got to the

52
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 2: elite amateur level and you'd play amateur tournaments, it's so unfair.

53
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's fair for the amateur, but it's unfair

54
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,880
Speaker 2: for everyone. Amated tournaments have played on the best courses

55
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,080
Speaker 2: in the world usually, and the British amateur I mean

56
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 2: I played British amateurs at Rows and George's Millfield and Canburry,

57
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,919
Speaker 2: and I played the Snandra's Lynx Trophy, a great amateur

58
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 2: tournament that's still going on, which was three rounds around

59
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,120
Speaker 2: the old and one around the New and the Bratherson Trophy.

60
00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: The English stroke play was raws and George's we played

61
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 2: one time. So I just thought, well, this is what

62
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 2: golf is because everywhere I knew there were some crappy

63
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,120
Speaker 2: courses around, but I just thought the great courses were

64
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,280
Speaker 2: all great. And then when I turned pro and started

65
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 2: playing in Europe and I realized the courses that you

66
00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 2: play on tour, just like, what is this, This isn't good,

67
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 2: This isn't no, this is not it? When do we

68
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 2: get to the good courses? And I finally it took

69
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 2: me forever to work out. So I grew up in

70
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,280
Speaker 2: the area of maybe the densest great courses in the world,

71
00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,880
Speaker 2: at least up there with Long Island and Westchester County

72
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: and Carmel and and Surrey, say in London. It was

73
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 2: just I couldn't it just it just disappointed me so

74
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 2: much that everywhere we went it was just so vanilla

75
00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 2: and bad. I just and it was it was going

76
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 2: to bad courses that made me realize how good good

77
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 2: courses are and how much your enjoyment of the day.

78
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,040
Speaker 2: Your enjoyment of the game, whether you acknowledge it or not,

79
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,920
Speaker 2: is built in where you're playing. And not just the

80
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 2: golf course either, the whole the feel of the clubhouse

81
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 2: and the smell of the locker room and the and

82
00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 2: the way the parking lot is and the first tea

83
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,280
Speaker 2: in the pro shop and just the whole feel of

84
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 2: the place contributes so much to your enjoyment of the game,

85
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 2: and it's so underestimated. And I kind of I worked

86
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,320
Speaker 2: that out in reverse because I just thought this was golf.

87
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,159
Speaker 2: And when I started going to lots of other places,

88
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is just not as enjoyable. Why, you know,

89
00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 2: I'm playing golf, I'm making money, I'm hitting the ball well,

90
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm making lots of birdies. Why And I finally worked

91
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,719
Speaker 2: out that someone would invite me to Sunningdale or something,

92
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,720
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden that feeling was back. It's like, oh,

93
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,520
Speaker 2: this is the game game I play. I love this.

94
00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:33,799
Speaker 2: I mean, how good is this place?

95
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 3: You know?

96
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 2: And I started really noticing the level of enjoyment I had.

97
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: Just it's a feeling more than anything else. And just

98
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 2: when you're at one of those places, and I just

99
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 2: started getting really addicted to those sort of places. You know.

100
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,040
Speaker 2: I've got a few invitations to Swinley Forrest, which still

101
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 2: might be my favorite course in the world. Harry Colt's

102
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 2: least Bad course is how he describes it. It's like

103
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 2: a mini little pine valley, really exclusive. I had a

104
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 2: friend who the manager room. I went and played there

105
00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,000
Speaker 2: a few times, and it's just absolutely amazing. It's just like,

106
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 2: I just want to play golf all day every day.

107
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 2: Just drop me off here every day. That's just what

108
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 2: I wanted. And then we would go back out on

109
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 2: tour and play some awful cow paddic in Germany, and

110
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 2: it's just like, what are we doing here? Like the

111
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,720
Speaker 2: tour should be playing on things like Swaly frosts. This

112
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,600
Speaker 2: is just ridiculous. So I kind of it went and reverse,

113
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 2: like I didn't know how good I had it until

114
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 2: I went somewhere else. So it just it grew from that,

115
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,400
Speaker 2: really and as I said, just that feeling of the

116
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,599
Speaker 2: feeling you get when you're at whatever, these really really

117
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:43,120
Speaker 2: really like highly ranked, amazing places. So many people all

118
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 2: this shot values and like they focused on completely the

119
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,719
Speaker 2: wrong thing. It's just a feel when you pull up

120
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 2: Cyprus point, You're just happy, don't care. It's just a

121
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,280
Speaker 2: good feel. Like the locker room is the same one

122
00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 2: it's been for one hundred years. Like the pro shop tiny,

123
00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 2: Like there's the first tea, boys, go play well, see

124
00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 2: you in four hours. Like it's just everything about it.

125
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,840
Speaker 2: So I just liked golf so much more at places

126
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 2: like that that I started crazing going to places like that,

127
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 2: and it kind of built out of that.

128
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 1: It's the really great places generally get it really well

129
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 1: because all the emphasis is placed in the tensions on

130
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: the golf course and kind of everything else comes second.

131
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 2: It seems. Yeah, it's no big gates and driveways and

132
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 2: bag drops and fountains and lake brass handles on the

133
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,680
Speaker 2: doorknobs and silk toilet paper and all that. It's just

134
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 2: complete fluff that means absolutely nothing and contributes nothing to

135
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,440
Speaker 2: the feel of a place. The feel of a place

136
00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 2: is the tradition, and the golf comes first. This is

137
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 2: a golf club, guys, We're all here to play golf,

138
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,560
Speaker 2: like we're gonna do it. I mean a lot of

139
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,280
Speaker 2: the I've got amazing clubhouses, and I've got all the

140
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,200
Speaker 2: other stuff, but that's just makeup on top of like

141
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 2: a makeup on top of something beautiful, like it doesn't

142
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 2: need to be there to be great. As you say,

143
00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,680
Speaker 2: focus on the golf, and almost all of them are

144
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 2: very very like tied to the history of their club,

145
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,120
Speaker 2: like this is the way it was, so this is

146
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:19,680
Speaker 2: the way we're going to keep it. And they've been

147
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 2: had obviously had great superintendents and great managers and greens

148
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 2: committees through the years that generally have preserved have understood

149
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,199
Speaker 2: why their place was great and preserved that. The places

150
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,400
Speaker 2: who don't understand it, with the bad supers and the

151
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:40,120
Speaker 2: bad greens committees and the bad owners have thought that

152
00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,959
Speaker 2: their driving range wasn't the lockers weren't big enough, or

153
00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,240
Speaker 2: that we need three beef jerky after the fourth green

154
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,160
Speaker 2: or something like all that stuff. The clubs that have

155
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,520
Speaker 2: focused on the non golf stuff and the have lost

156
00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 2: their way. The ones who the Cyprus Points, the pine valleys,

157
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 2: the Sunningdals, the Swinley Forests, the Shintikock Hills, they're so

158
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 2: like the are they would have been eighty years ago.

159
00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,480
Speaker 2: The smart people in the club have understood why their

160
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 2: place was great, and they've preserved that at all costs.

161
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,439
Speaker 2: And there's a reason why these places are great, and

162
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 2: the clubs that recognize that are the ones that the

163
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 2: ones that thrive and kind of get better and better

164
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 2: over time because they just create that the more history

165
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 2: and more field of the place.

166
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: It's like a perfect analogy. I was thinking that somebody

167
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,120
Speaker 1: was saying something along similar lines. They were talking about

168
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 1: all the architects that have worked at this one course,

169
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,839
Speaker 1: and I was thinking in my head, I'm like, you know,

170
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 1: Oakmant's only had three pro golf professionals in their whole history,

171
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,319
Speaker 1: and you know some of these clubs have had ten

172
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 1: architects work there.

173
00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,719
Speaker 3: It's like that, you know, you're trying to do too much.

174
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,199
Speaker 1: Less is more a lot of times in golf and

175
00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: just being focused on the core of the game, which

176
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 1: is the horse and competition is all you kind of need.

177
00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:09,120
Speaker 1: What's your biggest pet peeve in golf course architecture, Well.

178
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,000
Speaker 2: The general one would be a completely a complete misunderstanding

179
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 2: of strategy. And I know the non golf architecture people

180
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,679
Speaker 2: like with that, rolling their eyes when when people like

181
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:26,079
Speaker 2: us start talking about strategy, but it's so fundamental it's

182
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,679
Speaker 2: architecture one oh one that the whole to me has

183
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,160
Speaker 2: to make sense. Tenet rifles. I pick thirty in augusta

184
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:39,319
Speaker 2: hold that everybody knows. It's it's close to the perfect

185
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 2: hole because the more kind of the better you are,

186
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 2: and the braver you are off the tee, the easier

187
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 2: your second shot. Like and exponentially too, you're closer to

188
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,439
Speaker 2: the hole, you have a flatter line, and you have

189
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 2: a better angle. Every yard you go away from the

190
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,560
Speaker 2: creek or every yard that you're not capable of hitting

191
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 2: a good draw. The further away from the creek you're

192
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,560
Speaker 2: further away, your angle gets worse and the ball gets

193
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:09,400
Speaker 2: more above your feet. It's and it's a hole that

194
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,199
Speaker 2: gives the alien handicapper a par every time. Really, Like,

195
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 2: if you want to make five on thirteen Augusta, and

196
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,000
Speaker 2: that's your innate goal, your goal, you will make it

197
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 2: every time generally because you've got one hundred yards a

198
00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,199
Speaker 2: fairway out to the right, you've got a hundred yards

199
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 2: of a fairway to lay it up and to and

200
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 2: you've got a massive green did you hit it onto

201
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 2: with a big backstop? And you're going to have less

202
00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 2: than twenty five feet for Bertie every single time if

203
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,559
Speaker 2: you play it with that's your intent. But as soon

204
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 2: as you start trying to make a four or a three,

205
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 2: that's when you bring in all the carnage and are

206
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 2: you brave enough and are you good enough to do this?

207
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 2: And that principle that's the one that annoys me when

208
00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,679
Speaker 2: they don't get it right, And funnily enough, almost nobody

209
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,599
Speaker 2: gets it right. Like it's such a basic principle that

210
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,599
Speaker 2: you open up a green from one side and you

211
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,360
Speaker 2: challenge the player to hit it to the good angle.

212
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 2: But by doing that you have a deep little bunker

213
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,320
Speaker 2: and out of bounds fent, so you have the water

214
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 2: on that side of the hole. So you have to

215
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 2: challenge that off the tee. If you want to hit

216
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,839
Speaker 2: the ball close. If you don't want to hit the

217
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 2: ball closer and you just want to make a par

218
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 2: or a bogey, that's fine, take the easy way, take

219
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 2: no risk, but you're really going to have no fun.

220
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,960
Speaker 2: Like that principle. To me, it seems to be hard

221
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 2: for people to get but that when that goes wrong,

222
00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 2: I completely kind of tune out and I have no interest.

223
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,439
Speaker 2: And unfortunately it goes wrong almost everywhere these days or not,

224
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 2: there's a renaissance if you like to steal Doake's company name,

225
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 2: which is appropriate of architecture. That's bringing that back. But

226
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 2: a specific one would be I don't understand why trees

227
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,600
Speaker 2: can be in front of bunkers double hazards, like one

228
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 2: specific little advantage. Quite often you'll you'll hit it in

229
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 2: the bunker and you'll be're screwed because you're in the bunker,

230
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,440
Speaker 2: but there's a tree in front of the bunk as well.

231
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 2: It's like, why is the bunker heat because I was

232
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,920
Speaker 2: already going to be screwed anyway, Like I trades it

233
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,559
Speaker 2: and it gives the guy who's practiced his fairway bunker

234
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: play and it's developed the skill to do that. It's

235
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,000
Speaker 2: like saying, not you're not allowed to do that. There's

236
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 2: no point practicing your bunker play because we're just going

237
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,959
Speaker 2: to put you behind a tree, you know, double hazards

238
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 2: for a really little specific example, just it just draws

239
00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:26,520
Speaker 2: me absolutely crazy.

240
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that. Mine's always card path. But

241
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,240
Speaker 1: the strategy stuff. I played this new gil Hans that's

242
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 1: a hoopie match club and it's sure enough it's a

243
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,239
Speaker 1: match play course and they have half powers on the scorecard.

244
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 1: You know they it's it's a turd against to talk

245
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 1: about your score at the course, like what you shot,

246
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,439
Speaker 1: Like they don't want to hear it. But like I

247
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,640
Speaker 1: walked off the eighteenth hole after playing it once and

248
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 1: I was thinking through it and I was like, you

249
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,439
Speaker 1: know what, the strategy made sense on every single hole

250
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 1: if I took the aggressive line and I got the reward,

251
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,480
Speaker 1: and it was almost it's like shocking to feel that

252
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 1: way where I was like, wow, they got all the

253
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 1: strategy right. It's crazy how often it goes wrong. So

254
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,559
Speaker 1: do you you mentioned with the double hazard, like, do

255
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,839
Speaker 1: you think that the way the PGA Tour courses that

256
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 1: they play promotes a certain type of skill and mutes

257
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: other skills and golfers.

258
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 2: I think so yeah. I mean the biggest probably the

259
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 2: biggest issue I think that certainly faces American golf in

260
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 2: other countries but mostly in the US, is the overwatering

261
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 2: of golf courses, the over irrigation making it really green.

262
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,680
Speaker 2: And golf is always that it is more interesting when

263
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,880
Speaker 2: the ball will do something when it lands. When a

264
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: ball plugs all value of controlling ball flight and shape,

265
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 2: and it's completely irrelevant if the ball is just going

266
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 2: to plug then plug on the fairway and then plug

267
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 2: around the greens and not go anywhere when it lands.

268
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,400
Speaker 2: You are really just promoting long hitting good putters. You

269
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 2: want to hit the ball long, and you want to

270
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,720
Speaker 2: be a great putter and be great with your sixty

271
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 2: you know, around the greens out of rough that now

272
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 2: I understand these are going on TV and motley courses

273
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 2: that are like different shades of green and brown don't

274
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 2: present perhaps to some people's eye, as well as striking

275
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 2: green fairways. But when you set them up soft, which

276
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 2: pretty much exclusively the PGA Tour is set up very soft,

277
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 2: very narrow, very long, very long, rough, very kind of

278
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,640
Speaker 2: penal style of thinking, you create guys that all you

279
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 2: want to do is go home and work on hitting long,

280
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 2: high drivers, long eye iron shots and be a great putter.

281
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 2: Whereas say Snandrew's, for example, where the ball never stops

282
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 2: when it lands, you know, it stops when it wants to.

283
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 2: The flight that it comes in on is very important.

284
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 2: The angle you come from is just exponentially more important

285
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 2: the angle you're on. If the ball's landing, rolling when

286
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: it lands, they might not present quite as well on TV,

287
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: but they promote a much more interesting style of golf.

288
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:24,080
Speaker 2: So I understand the predicament. I mean Sonandraw's is an

289
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 2: underachiever on TV and an overachiever when you're there, you know.

290
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 2: And that's the extreme example of the whole kind of brown,

291
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,480
Speaker 2: sort of no definition kind of thing. On TV. It

292
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 2: doesn't present that well, but when you play it, you

293
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 2: understand that that's the best version of the game you

294
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 2: can And you can replicate that principle on any golf

295
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 2: course really, and it can be not going to be

296
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 2: as brown as Snandra's. It can be greener, but it

297
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 2: has to be. We have to water golf courses. We

298
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 2: have to water them less because we have to let

299
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 2: the ball bounce when it lands. If the ball doesn't

300
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 2: bounce a role when it lands, the so much of

301
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 2: the kind of depth and interest or all the shades

302
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 2: of gray come out of the game. And it's a

303
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 2: that would be my one thing. We promote long hitting

304
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 2: good putters just because of how soft and narrow and

305
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 2: long imposed are.

306
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 1: It seems like to me, just having watched a lot

307
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: of professional goth like almost like the real the most

308
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 1: impressive talent with tour players is the ability to hit

309
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: the ball the exact number they want, and if it rolls,

310
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 1: that's when they lose control.

311
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 3: Is that right?

312
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're very very good even before track Man. TrackMan's

313
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 2: made it better and we're a little bit more fine tuned,

314
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 2: but even before that sort of technology, two guys, Yeah,

315
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 2: between under kind of two hundred yards. I mean, when

316
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 2: guys are feeling it and playing well, they could tell

317
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,640
Speaker 2: you after the ball's gone ten yards in the air

318
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 2: if it's going to go one hundred and ninety six

319
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,719
Speaker 2: or one hundred and seventy eighth or I mean, very

320
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 2: very good at distance control. Late. It's so important to play,

321
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 2: but as you said, it kind of gets a little bit.

322
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 2: It's it's a little bit easier when the ball doesn't

323
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,640
Speaker 2: roll when it lands because it's very definite, like you've

324
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 2: got a definite starting point and a definite ending point.

325
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,240
Speaker 2: There's no like, oh, did that hit a downslow board?

326
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 2: Did that hit an up slope? Was the height is

327
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 2: less relevant? I mean a high shot that goes one

328
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: seventy in a low shot that goes one seven. If

329
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 2: it's soft, they both go one seventy, But the low

330
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 2: one that flies one seven, he's going to go one

331
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 2: eighty five. It's firm, and the high one is going

332
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,440
Speaker 2: to go one seventy five, you know, so fly, there's

333
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 2: just more depth to more shades of gray. I think

334
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,920
Speaker 2: firm golf bring but I understand that. I understand the

335
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 2: presentation of the pictures and stuff, But firm golf tends

336
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,480
Speaker 2: to find the class in a PGA Tour event pretty quickly.

337
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,440
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah.

338
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: I mean it's firm golf is so much tougher to

339
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 1: it's just so much harder to hit numbers, and it's

340
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 1: it brings the precision of the game up so much

341
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: more so of all. You know, I don't want to

342
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: get you in trouble with anybody that's like consulting architects

343
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 1: at like clubs or anything. If you could just blow

344
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: up and completely redo one TPC course, which one would

345
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 1: it be?

346
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:29,400
Speaker 2: I would love and I and I think, as I said,

347
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 2: I think Pete Dye was great. You know. I think

348
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,919
Speaker 2: you really understood the strategy of the game better than

349
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,640
Speaker 2: anyone else in that era. Most of its holes make

350
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 2: sense in some way. Esthetically. I don't love the whole

351
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 2: like all the sleepers and stuff, but I mean in

352
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 2: some places I think they're great. I think they've got

353
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 2: a little overdone, and I would love to have a

354
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 2: go at saw brass. And I wouldn't change the routing,

355
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 2: you wouldn't change the kind of in a kind of

356
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,359
Speaker 2: strategy on the course. I would just make it a

357
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,199
Speaker 2: little bit more attractive around the edges. I think it's

358
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 2: a little bit too center ties and neat. Now I'm

359
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 2: not a big fan of those big, long flat bunkers,

360
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 2: you know, those two hundred yard long bunkers that just

361
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: like run halfway up a hole on one side with

362
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 2: just this perfectly uniformed bank along the side of it.

363
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,479
Speaker 2: Like I'd like to see that area of Florida can

364
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 2: look like Pinehurst, you know, it can look kind of

365
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 2: raggedy and pine straw and sandy kind of. I would

366
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,919
Speaker 2: love to kind of get that more to a Pinehurst

367
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 2: pine Valley style kind of thing, because I think the

368
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 2: bones that sawgrass are there to just be. It's a

369
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 2: really really good golf course. It's just a little bit

370
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: too neat and a little bit too kind of I

371
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 2: don't know, not kind of it just forced narrowness in

372
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: a few different spots. And I think it's a wonderful course.

373
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: I mean, just just the first few holes. I mean

374
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 2: you have to fade the T shot off the first

375
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 2: you have to draw the second shot. The second hole

376
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 2: you have to draw the T shot, fade the second shot,

377
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 2: and that pattern follows almost the whole course. If you

378
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 2: don't move it both ways, you're really not going to

379
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: be able to shoot a great score there. And I

380
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: think that was kind of that kind of rugged look

381
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 2: and some like some good looking bunkers and stuff. I

382
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: think it could be really really special sort grass. I

383
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 2: think it's really close to being special.

384
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it opened, it was a lot more rugged looking.

385
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: I feel like it's gotten more and more capped over time,

386
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the you know, when

387
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 1: you charge four hundred dollars for somebody to come play,

388
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: that's what they expect. But you know, you talk about

389
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: those two hundred yard long traps, it's like, you know,

390
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: for the vast majority of that bunker, it has no

391
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: effect on a tour player. And it just like I

392
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: always whenever I walk around that golf course or watch

393
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 1: it on TV, I think about how hard it must

394
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 1: be for a fifteen handicap.

395
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that would be a brutal course for a

396
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: fifteen night a gap guy. I mean, it beats us up,

397
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: as you're saying, and because it's such a test and

398
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 2: you really have to be moving the ball both ways,

399
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: and it's always windy and you've got to be greater

400
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: and the grains obviously, it's it would be I kind

401
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 2: of imagine the average, like the average nice twelve fifteen

402
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: hendicap guy who's a good golfer playing there. It would

403
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: just bash you over the head all day and it

404
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: would just be just And everybody wants to play it,

405
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 2: obviously because it's seventeen in the history and the tournament,

406
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: and I completely get that, but it wouldn't be that

407
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: enjoyable experience if you did it all the time, because

408
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: it would just beat you over the head all the time.

409
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about if I live there and I

410
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: could play there every day, I probably would play a

411
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: lot of other places in town more than there, because

412
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, it would be really fun to go play

413
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: every once in a while. But like you know, playing

414
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 1: like extreme championship golf course like isn't always the most

415
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: fun place to play on a day offer like just

416
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: for a casual round.

417
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: No, Well, I think that's the thing that's gone the

418
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: most wrong. If you want to pick something that is

419
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: going wrong. I think golf has gone great, but that

420
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 2: kind of Tory Pine South mentality of take this great

421
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: municipal on is just arguably maybe one of the best

422
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 2: places of the land in the world, and you just

423
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: make it the hardest, longest slog that completely detracts from

424
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: where you're at because it's such a beatdown. It's like

425
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: somebody bashing you in here with the sledgehammer eighteen times.

426
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: It's just it's missing the point. I wouldn't want to

427
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 2: go play that. When people ask you, I go play

428
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: Tory Times, I'm like, no, you're not going to have

429
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 2: any fun. Go for a walk around the property shore

430
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: because it's a stunning place, but it's so hard that

431
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: it's not enjoyable. I mean, with the exception of probably

432
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: Pine Valley and Oakmont, which are outliers really in the

433
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: great golf courses, in that their intent was to be really,

434
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: really difficult and just they happen to end up great.

435
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: I mean, generally, if difficulty is the mission, you don't

436
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: end up with something great. Generally, Oakmond Pine Valley of

437
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 2: somehow got out of that for lots of other reasons.

438
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: But the great golf courses usually have lots of width

439
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: and lots of options, and if a tool player wants

440
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: to go shoot even par or something at Augusta, it's

441
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: really not that difficult if his intent is to shoot

442
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 2: even par. As soon as he starts trying to make birdies,

443
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 2: that vantage comes and he shoots seventy eight. But they

444
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: allow everybody to play. These top fifty golf courses generally

445
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: easier for an aiden handicapper and harder for a scratch player,

446
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: you know, And I think that that's what has got

447
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 2: got when when places go wrong, that's the point they miss.

448
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: I think you want to make golf as easy as

449
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: you can for the aiding handicapper, because it's already really

450
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 2: hard for him. You know, a dead flat hole with

451
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: no hazards and like bumper bowling version of golf is

452
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: still really hard for that guy. But the scratch guy,

453
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: he needs the challenge. And I think that Snandrews. The

454
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: Augusta is, the Shinnecocks, the Nationals, the pick any of

455
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: the Chicago golf clubs, the Cyprus Points, I mean, you

456
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: pick any number of them, and generally they're they're easier

457
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: for the alien handicap guy. But they're much more difficult

458
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: for the two level guy or the scratch guy, because

459
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: the scratch guy wants to beat his head shoot two

460
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: or three under par, and to shoot two or three

461
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: under par, you've got to start making some taking some risks,

462
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: and then you'd start getting into all the carnage if

463
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: you just want to shoot, like the fairways usually really wide,

464
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: and you're just when you're a handicap and you want

465
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: to just bogey every hole. It's relatively easy if your

466
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: goal to boge every hole is to do that, because

467
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: they give you a lot of room to avoid the

468
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: problems if you're willing to give up birdies and pars.

469
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: That aspect, I think is kind of where it went wrong.

470
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: It's like, we're just going to make golf hard because

471
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: people want it hard. And when you make it hard

472
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: across the board, it's just it's just something that's too hard.

473
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: You need to have challenge, but too hard just for

474
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: hard's sake. It just gets boring after a while and

475
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: you choose to do something else because it's just it's

476
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 2: beating you over the head, and where's the It's got

477
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: to give you a few thrills here and there, you know,

478
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: you've got to find your ball and you're going to

479
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: be able to get to par fours in two and

480
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: past threeson one. For that exams that matter, it's that

481
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: if you if you went by that principle, I think

482
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: you really it's hard to go wrong. How do we

483
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: make this easier for adian handing hebron and harder for

484
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: a scratch guy. I think golf courses that tick that

485
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: box are usually almost all the way there.

486
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And a good way to do that is with

487
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: don't water it too much, because then you know, when

488
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: a guy duffs it, it rolls for a while, and

489
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: it's rolling towards the hole, and for the good player

490
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: it makes the margin for error slimmer when they're trying

491
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: to get out of pin. It's like, you know, it

492
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: all goes hand in hand, and it seems pretty simple.

493
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: Exactly. I mean, I know people love green and that's fine.

494
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: And when you start stop watering so much, you still

495
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 2: got to water to make grass grow. I mean, we're

496
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: not talking about not watering, but just so the ball

497
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: does something when it lands. What really first made me

498
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: think about this was I was at Pinehurst for the Open.

499
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: I can't remember which one I think the most recent.

500
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: One, but one, yeah, twenty fourteen, right, yeah.

501
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: And I was in the bar at the Pinehurst Hotel

502
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: or whatever, and I was just sitting there with my

503
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: body having a beer or something, and the table next

504
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: to us, so like, oh, we started chatting about the

505
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 2: tournament and stuff like that, and they say, yeah, there

506
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: were snowbirds down there and they played there every winter.

507
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: But they came down to watch the Open. And I said, well,

508
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 2: which course do you like the best? Do you ever

509
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: play number two? Or is it too hard? And they

510
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: said no, no, no, no, no, you don't know what

511
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: you're talking about. Number two is the easiest for us.

512
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: That's the one we like the most because it's the

513
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: easiest for us. All the other ones they're the hard

514
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 2: ones because they've got forced carries and stuff everywhere, and

515
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: it blew me away. It's like Pinet's number two. It's

516
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: so difficult for us. It's out. It's just incredible. But

517
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 2: he explained, this guy explained the husband and wife. They

518
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: explained that they could put it from everywhere. They have

519
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 2: no forced carries anywhere. The ball rolls a long way.

520
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: It's quite easy to keep it out of the trouble.

521
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: If feds that's their only mission. They get it around

522
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: the green, they roll their putter up onto the green.

523
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: They one part for par or they're two put for bogey,

524
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: and they're like all the other ones. We've got to

525
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: hit like it shots over water and deep bunkers and

526
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: all that, and pinehas gives the average player room to

527
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: do what he can do. But at the same time

528
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: it presents such a challenge. I mean, the hardest iron

529
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: shot you could be in the middle of the fairway

530
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: all day at Pineha's for a two level goal. For

531
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: if you even par from the middle of the fairway,

532
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: if you hit twelve greens in regulation for the day,

533
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 2: you've had a great day. And that's somebody giving you.

534
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: It is so hard for us, and it just crystallized

535
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: this idea in my hands, like, well, what, that's the

536
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: principle that's perfect. Number two was their favorite and it

537
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: was also my favorite, And it was my favorite because

538
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: it was so difficult, and it was their favorite because

539
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: it was kind of relatively easy for them. So it

540
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: was just amazing.

541
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah to me, I'm seeing Painehurst the next week for

542
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: the first time, and like, as I've thought about through

543
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: Open a US Open Championship courses like that one to

544
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: me seems like the one that gets it the most

545
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: right in terms of it's got with it's got angles.

546
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: But like, the greens are so interesting and so difficult that, like,

547
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: you know, eighteen handicaps are only going to hit four

548
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: or five greens in a round, you know, regardless of

549
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: what type of greens they are. That's where the challenge

550
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: has to come to really challenge you guys.

551
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, the greens. I'll be interested to

552
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: see what you think about the greens. They're very repelling. Obviously,

553
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: they're all they're up in the air and they kind

554
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: of they roll off on all four sides, and they're

555
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: incredibly uncomfortable. It makes you uncomfortable, which is what a

556
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: lot of great holes do. They make you what they

557
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: make you sort of take on shots you don't really

558
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: want to, you know, but you know you kind of

559
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: have to take it on anyway, because if you don't

560
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: take it on and swing with real conviction, you're going

561
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: to miss the green and you're going to make a bug.

562
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: So you've really got to play with conviction and really

563
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: kind of know what you're doing. And it's a little

564
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: bit I don't know if I'd want to play Partners

565
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: number two every day, but it's a brilliant place and

566
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: it's got to talk about great fear, and it's got

567
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: such a great feel and the Crenshaw core redo is

568
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: just so brilliant. Like it just it didn't change Pinehurst.

569
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: It just brought it back to what it should be,

570
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: at least from an aesthetic perspective. And it got rid

571
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: of the silly ruff and irrigated the center line the

572
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: cent line irrigation as opposed to throwing the irrigation into

573
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 2: the rough and stuff. I mean, they did some really

574
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: really good stuff and it should be one of the

575
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: benchmarks for remodels around the country because they did. They

576
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: did a lot of stuff right. So I think you'll

577
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: enjoy it. I think you'll be surprised at how extreme

578
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: some of the greens are, but I think you'll enjoy it. Yeah.

579
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the only way to challenge like a

580
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: player of your caliber is to like in today's game,

581
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: it's to become driver wedges, to have greens that make

582
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable with a wedge in your hand, and.

583
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: That does that. Promists will do that. There is no

584
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 2: distance away from the green that is truly comfortable until

585
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: you're on it.

586
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: So let's get it, yeah out of here. On a

587
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: few quick questions. So you get one course on each continent.

588
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: What are you picking?

589
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: Okay, North America, let's say, Well, that's a difficult one

590
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: because North America might have the best bunch of golf

591
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: courses there is. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna The obvious

592
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: would be Pine Valley. If you've been to Pine Valley,

593
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 2: and anyone who has would say the same thing. But

594
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna stay by that. I'm going to go National

595
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Golf Links of America. I just think it's it's it's

596
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: everything that's great about the template whole concept, and it's

597
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: it's it's that the beauty of North American press Wick

598
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: kind of presented in such a beautiful way, and like

599
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: it maybe one of the more beautiful places in the world.

600
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's just everything golf could be.

601
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: It's just fun. It's just a fun adventure. It's just

602
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: an adventure, and it's fun. Europe, I guess I already

603
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: And Swindley Forest I think is my favorite. Now if

604
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: I want to pick the best, I'm I think Snandra's

605
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: is our sports measuring stick. I think everyone should go

606
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: to the Old Course, and I think everyone should play

607
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: it as much as they can, walk it as much

608
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: as they can, and watch people play it as much

609
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 2: as they can, and it really after a while, it

610
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: might it might be like some music for people to

611
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: get back to music, kind of analogy. It might sound

612
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: like noise at first, but after a while you begin

613
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: to hear the melody like the Old Course. That is

614
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: what it is. It's just it's everything all of a sudden.

615
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: It might go off day one, or it might take

616
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: fifty days, but eventually the light bulb is going to

617
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 2: go up and go ah ah, I get it now.

618
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: But that's the point, and it's so obvious and it's

619
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: so amazing, and it's it's if you put me on

620
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: one golf course in Europe for the rest of my

621
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: life to play. If it wasn't the Sween Leaders, because

622
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: I love the field of the place, it would be

623
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: the Old Course because it's just it's just as I said,

624
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: it's it's the sports measuring stick and it needs it's respected,

625
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: but it needs to be respected more. It needs to

626
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: be visited by everybody. It's the Vatican or it's Macca.

627
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: It's like, that's that's the thing, that the whole game

628
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: is built around. The principles that are that are exemplified

629
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: best at the Old Course. Australasia. Content I don't. I

630
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: can't talk South America because I've never been there. So

631
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: pick me one. He's the dog here of the dog.

632
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: What's that? Well?

633
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: I played the Jockey Club in Argentina.

634
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's supposed to be great, right.

635
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good one.

636
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 2: All right, So I'll go with you on that one.

637
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: Jockey Club Asia, I'm not sure either. I haven't played

638
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: much architecturally significant stuff in Asia, not enough to like

639
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: make any comments. I know India's got to cut the

640
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: great ones. Japan's got a cut the great ones? Is

641
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: it Herono? I think it supposed to be great. I

642
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: haven't played enough there. I've played a couple of tournaments there.

643
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: We play this cool Visa t Hayo thing, which is

644
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 2: not that amazing course, but it sits at the bottom

645
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: of Mount Fuji. It's a beautiful kind of places because

646
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: you look up at the elusive Mountain or whatever they

647
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: call it. It's in the clouds. It's out of the clouds.

648
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: There's snow on the top of it. The mountain to

649
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: draw when you're a kid. So I can't really speak

650
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: for Asia, but we'll put Australia in Asia because there's

651
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: a lot of Australia and raw. Melbourne is by far

652
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: and away my favorite course in Australia. It's so good

653
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: it's it baffles every time I play. It's on those courses.

654
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: I like it more every time I play it. Of

655
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: the two, the West Course is the one of my favorite.

656
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 2: It's incredibly short now, unfortunately, but I'll often go out

657
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: just with a persimmon wood and a half set blade putterer,

658
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: you know, go old school, and I never never don't

659
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: it's even a golf course. I'd go playing the rain

660
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: for fun, you know. It's just I just love everything

661
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: about it.

662
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 3: Would that be a good.

663
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: Format for the PGA Tour, is like a half set,

664
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: like a six or a nine club event.

665
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: I think that would be great. I think a half

666
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: set whatever, Yeah, six club, nine club, pick one. I

667
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: mean I think the less clubs are more interesting. To

668
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: a point three clubs is probably a bit low, but

669
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: like six would be really interesting, right that would be

670
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: a fun time, especially around a course that it would suit,

671
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: you know, like a maybe it's too small for modern

672
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: golf with all our stuff, but you find but you

673
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 2: really want to have an event there and it really worked.

674
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: Maybe do the sixth the six club thing there. Maybe

675
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: it's only thirty six holes, but maybe you make all

676
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: the players up and everybody talks about or why did

677
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: you pick three one? I mean, I can't believe you

678
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: put a three on and you've got to go a

679
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: five one and then I hope or I mean you'd

680
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: have those great kind of debates about what everyone was

681
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: picking and why they were doing it, and do you

682
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: have a sixty or do you just go fifty four

683
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: or do you go straight from pitching wedge to sixty

684
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 2: or do you go nine nine to fifty four? Or

685
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: like it'd be great, Yeah, it would. That'd be fun.

686
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that would be super cool.

687
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: You could do it at like a you know, a

688
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: sixty four hundred yard classic course too, which would be

689
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: super fun.

690
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. There'd be so many courses that are so great,

691
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: and unfortunately almost all of those really a great ones,

692
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: they're probably getting too short, except for the ones that

693
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: the usgas manipulated that you go on these really great

694
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: and have like the old school classic or whatever you

695
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: want to call it, Like we can use modern stuff,

696
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: but like less clubs. And it would be really really

697
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 2: interesting because guys might not take a driver, you know,

698
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: three wood might be their max, you know, because they

699
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: might want more clubs down the other end of the back.

700
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it would be giving guys the

701
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: choice of which one is to choose and seeing how

702
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: they thought was best to attack the course. It'd be

703
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: great to be a brilliant event.

704
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: And then you could have a whole preview show where

705
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: Phil just walks you through his philosophy on each one

706
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: of his clubs.

707
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: Yes, so that would be. He'd write a novel on

708
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: that one.

709
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: He might carry two drivers.

710
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: He is maybe he is one of the more interesting

711
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: dinner party guests there is on tour. I mean he

712
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: he he believes with such conviction, whether he kind of

713
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: deep down knowses the kind of crap or not. He

714
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 2: just loves trying to get one up in front of everybody.

715
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: And he's obviously very very smart, and he spends a

716
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 2: lot of time trying to outthink the whole thing, and

717
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: it's just fascinating. Some of the stuff he comes up with.

718
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: He's absolutely brilliant. Who goes to Tory Pines without a drive?

719
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: The longest he was open in history in two thousand

720
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: and eight, he went with two three woods. He didn't

721
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: go with a driver. And then he goes to the

722
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 2: Masters like well, the year before I think he went

723
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 2: to the Masters with two drivers of no freewood like brilliant, tough,

724
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: I mean, and when he tells you for ten minutes

725
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: and he'll sell his theory, is that? Yeah, you know what,

726
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: he's probably right there, you know, because he sells it

727
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: so well, it's fantastic.

728
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's one of the kind. What about Africa?

729
00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: No, I haven't played enough well doerbed, but maybe pretty.

730
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 3: Good in it, I think, Yeah, I think that's a

731
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 3: good one.

732
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: I haven't played enough to to make up enough of

733
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: an educated statement on that one.

734
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, yeah, that's all right. Next quick one here.

735
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: If conditions are right, firm and fast, what's the winning

736
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: score at Shinnacock this year?

737
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: It'll be overpower, I would imagine, depending on the teas.

738
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: I mean, they've built some like Godzilla level teas, but

739
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: they don't necessarily use them, right, I mean a lot

740
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: of these openmont They threw a few teas in that

741
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 2: we didn't really scare very much. You know, they put

742
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: them there in case conditions get to the point where

743
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: they might want to need that right I have. It's

744
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: such the way the land is there, it's never going

745
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: to get soft. It's's hard to imagine shinnacock too off.

746
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: It might be raining, but it's still going to have

747
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: that firm element because of the sand underneath. So I

748
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: would I think it'll be very close to par. I

749
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: don't think it would be won't be the Aaron Hills scoreline.

750
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: I think it'll be more. If you're even par after

751
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 2: three rounds, you're going to have a real chance.

752
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: That's uh. I hope that that happens.

753
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: I wish they wouldn't have a narrowed at That really

754
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: kind of buged me.

755
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: The narrowing. I don't mind the lengthening as much because

756
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: we do hit the ball so far now, But the

757
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: narrowing is the offensive stuff because you lose some of

758
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: the angles and stuff of the You lose the intent

759
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: and some of these greens which are unhittable from say

760
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: where the middle of the fairway is now are very

761
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: hittable from where the edge of the fairway used to be.

762
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: And now that the edge of the fairway isn't where

763
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 2: it used to be, is now rough. You don't have

764
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 2: McDonald rainer angle that they said, wow, unless you're good,

765
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 2: if you can get it here, you can play this hole.

766
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: If you can't, you can't. I don't like it when

767
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: that stuff gets taken away, But the length, I don't

768
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: mind car as much because in this dynagic s out

769
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: of affairs, we kind of native bit length.

770
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: That's I did this article on AUGUSTA, and I looked

771
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: at the holes that they've narrowed with the trees like

772
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: eleven and versus the holes that they've just lengthened and

773
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: haven't really added trees, and it's it's unbelievable, like those

774
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: holes that they added the trees that they're just trading

775
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: birdies and bogies for double bogies, so you know, like

776
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: they're just you know, they're losing excitement and interest in

777
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: the game because people aren't able to get to certain

778
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: pins with the right angle. And then the holes that

779
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: they've just lengthened have like stayed the distribution over the

780
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: last fifty years has stayed like exactly the same.

781
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: Well, because we hit the ball whatever, let's say fifty

782
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 2: odd longer than in nine fifty or whatever it would be. Yeah,

783
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: it's probably and I know they say why you should

784
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: be hitting seven eines inn and all that, but a

785
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: two hundred yard shots are two hundred yard shot, you know,

786
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: like seven nine to two hundred yards and a four

787
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: he two hundred yard. Yeah, the seven eydes a little

788
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 2: easier to too, or two hundred, but the real inherent

789
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: difficulty in that is the fact that it's two hundred

790
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: yards and the fact that a seven eine now is

791
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: probably what a five iron was lost wise back then,

792
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: So it's really like a five on anyway, right, But

793
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: the narrowness, Yeah, like seven and seventeen are the ones

794
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 2: I disliked the leaf or the new trees at the Masters.

795
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: The seventeenth Green might be one of the more interesting

796
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: greens ever built in the world. And the whole point

797
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: was especially though, because it's kind of a it's high

798
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: in the middle and it goes down to the right

799
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: and it goes down to the left. Kind of the

800
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 2: point is the pins on the left. You actually want

801
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: to drive it up the left, which is counterintuitive, right,

802
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 2: That's why it's a clever green. And when the pins

803
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: on the right, you want to blow it as far

804
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 2: right as you can to kind of be landing into

805
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: that upslope on the right inside of the green. You

806
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 2: can't do that anymore. Everybody's dictated to hit from the

807
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: same spot. So if you don't hit the if you

808
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: hit the middle of the fairway, it's kind of a

809
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: part three because everybody's hitting their second shot from the

810
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: same spot. It's clearly more interesting when the fan, the patrons,

811
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: if you like, behind the green. I seen one guy

812
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: come in from the middle of the fifteenth seway and

813
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 2: another guy coming in from over near the seventh green

814
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: to the same pin. It's like maybe two different theories

815
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: or whatever, and that is interesting, much more interesting than

816
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 2: two guys hitting it from the same spot. Well, that's

817
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 2: I think.

818
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: And like you look back at the nineteen eighty six Masters,

819
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: where Jack was hitting a second shot on the seventeenth,

820
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: he would have been in like a canopy of trees

821
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: and he would that the most one of the most

822
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: famous moments in in major championship history would never have

823
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: happened with the vern lunkuis yesterda car like if he'd

824
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: played that today.

825
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, and I think yeah, with lack of width,

826
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: is is kind of deciding that your greens and your

827
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: bunkers are your greens aren't good enough. You know, If

828
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: your greens are good enough and they're interesting enough, then

829
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: it really you don't need any fairway trouble really, because

830
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: if the greens good enough, there's one really good spot

831
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: to come in from and lots of bad ones angle wise,

832
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: And this obviously takes into account it needs to be firm,

833
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: but if you get everything right, it doesn't need to

834
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: be that narrow. Really, it really doesn't. And and this

835
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: isn't just from a golfer who doesn't like hitting the

836
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: ball in the rough. I just think it's not about

837
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: easy or hard. It's about interest. It's about making it

838
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: more interesting, because what's going to bring you back next

839
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: time to while the watch and play it is how

840
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: interesting it is, how many different ways there are to

841
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: do it. When you narrow stuff down so much, you

842
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: dictate where people have to play it, just it loses

843
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: a little few again, those shades of gray kind of

844
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: get lost a little bit because it's a bit more

845
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: black and white it's fair way good, rough bad, or

846
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: trees bad. You know. So, yeah, I've got no problem

847
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: with the length. Yeah, I mean I do in some ways,

848
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 2: but not really. It kind of needs to happen if

849
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: we're going to play the course. But it's the it's

850
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: the inherent kind of misunderstanding of the strategy and taking

851
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: the strategy away.

852
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I mean, like I think about myself

853
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: and amateur stuff, like mid am stuff, and like my

854
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: strength and my game is hitting the ball straight. So

855
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: like it's funny because like the golf courses I hate

856
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: the most that are the most narrow. I like playing

857
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: in competition the most, like because it gives me an advantage.

858
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 3: Yes, it's kind of stupid, but it's it's not.

859
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: I mean, we're also it's all self interested at the

860
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: end of the day. Like straight it is like narrow courses,

861
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: and wild it is like wide courses, and long it

862
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: is like long courses. And yeah, I mean it's gotta

863
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: be some selfish just involved.

864
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: So we do this overrated underrated segment just quick, you

865
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: know whether whether this thing is overrated or underrated.

866
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 3: So kangaroos underwrited the concept of par.

867
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: Overrated harbor Town overrited.

868
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 3: That's how that's a good take. I don't know.

869
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: I think Harbor Town's the one I struggle because, like

870
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: in the history of architecture, I think it's underrated, but

871
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: playing it today is overrated.

872
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: I think the way the tour players talk about it,

873
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 2: they talk about it in the same breath as Riviera

874
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: and Pebble Beach and stuff, and it's just not that.

875
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: I think it's very interesting and it's very good, but

876
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: it's not that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not saying it's not good.

877
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 2: I'm saying it's ever writed. Yeah.

878
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a riviera. I feel like it is in

879
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: a class of itself. It's an above all else on

880
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: like the regular PGA tour.

881
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: I think, all right, well, Jeff, hey, thanks so much

882
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 3: for your time.

883
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: I'm really appreciative, and good luck this week and we'll

884
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: we'll catch up Dune.

885
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: No worries, it sounds good. Thanks man.

886
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 3: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do

887
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: the digging for you.

888
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 2: H