WEBVTT - Krugman Says More Money Needs to Flow from DC 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.760 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.480 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. So delighted to have back with us. Um. 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.760 Paul Krugman, Nobel Laureate to Economist, New York Times, columnist, 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:16.480 City University of New York, Distinguished Professor of Economics, author, 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.880 editor of nearly thirty books, his latest Arguing with Zombies, Economics, Politics, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.040 and the Fight for a Better Future. Great book to 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.440 be reading. Why you're at home at this point, Um, 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.520 Good to have you back with us, Paul, Um, Welcome 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.480 back to Bloomberg Radio. So you know, the President looks 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.960 like he has hit on another stimulus plan with Congress, 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.000 and it looks like more money for really small businesses 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.479 and also money to you know, help those that have 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.400 lost their jobs provide them with some income. I'm curious, 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.840 as you have watched policies unfold from the government, are 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.560 they the right ones and what's needed to kind of 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.800 maintain the economy as much as they can right now 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.120 and help us when we get on the other side. Okay, 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.600 the this this program that just got some additional funding. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.440 So far, it has not worked particularly well. A lot 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.680 of the money has gone to businesses that don't need it. 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.280 But you know that doesn't worry that. That's actually, in 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.280 some way the least bad part of what's happening. Um. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.800 The two things that worry me a lot are still 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.399 we have had no significant relief for state and local governments, 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.320 and those governments have to balance their budgets and they're 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.039 on the front lines, and it's gonna they're even in 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.880 pure economic terms, they're going to be forced into austerity 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.559 measures that are going to extend this slump long after 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.479 the virus has let up. Um. And the other thing 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.520 is unemployment benefits. Um. We have a on paper, we 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.000 have a really good plan that gives people a lot 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:51.040 of compensation, but it's being run through state unemployment offices 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.360 which have been totally overwhelmed. So the last number I 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.920 saw it was in Florida. Uh, you know, only one 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.440 person eight who has been approved for unemployed element has 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:04.000 actually benefits, has actually received any money. So um, So 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:08.160 we're falling down enormously on the implementation on the unemployment benefits. 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.360 So if you take it all together, what we have is, 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.480 you know, we've had kind of the right ideas and 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.680 how to deal with this, but we've fallen down enormously, 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.040 that the money is just not flowing on our sufficient 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:25.320 scale to deal with the magnitude of this catastrophe, and Paul, 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.079 when it comes to execution it, it feels like one 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.000 of the raging debates that it seems like we're we're having, 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.240 maybe unwittingly or maybe very wittingly, is between the power 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.480 of the federal government, the responsibility of the federal government 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.919 and the responsibility and the role of state and local governments. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.280 How did we get here and where do you think 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.440 it goes from here in terms of that breakdown. Well, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:54.240 you know, we have a federal system, which does sometimes 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.400 cause problems. I mean in you know, Britain, there's no 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.200 question there's there's a government and and I mean they're 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.960 all local authority effectively, it's it's centralized. But um, we've 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:10.000 have relied way too much on state and local initiative, 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:14.040 UM in situations where they just don't have the resources. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.440 So I've been looking on the unemployment front, and I'm 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.799 looking at Canada, which also has a federal system with 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:24.560 very strong provinces, but they have unemployment benetive scheme which 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.799 is not too different from ours, except the federal government 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.960 set up a portal and hotline, and people in Canada 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:36.320 are getting their emergency unemployment benefits within days, whereas we 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.640 are still, you know, immensely backlogged. So uh why I 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.320 think it's you could you can understand the political history 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.160 that got us at this point, but this is a 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.520 point where we really should have to take charge federal 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.000 government in terms of of of getting that money to 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.160 the people who needed and we don't. I do want 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.920 to mention some headlines, um and I think you might appreciate, Paul, 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.000 is that, uh New York Governor Andrew Cuomo apparently had 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.760 did a conversation or interview with MSNBC and talked about 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.840 the conversation he had with President Trump. They talked about testing, 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.360 but they also Governor Cuomo saying that the President seemed 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.520 open to the need for state funding in the next bill. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.599 But but this is crucial because we've talked about you know, 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:22.400 states they have to um balance their budget, right, so 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.400 they've got no income coming in that if we don't 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.920 help out these states. Certainly, some of these major states, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.800 whether it's New York or out on the West Coast, 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:35.520 I mean, these are important economies to the overall US economy. Well, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.280 we've seen this before. Remember the after this just have 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.440 anate financial crisis. Um, there was a lot of austerity 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.760 by state local governments. Uh. They eliminated about three million 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.520 jobs over the course of several years there and that 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.200 um that delayed recovery. We would have been probably at 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.320 full employment by if it hadn't been for all those 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.880 state cutbacks. Now they're to the catastrophe. That makes two 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.120 thousand and eight look like nothing. I mean, you know, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.960 states rely take of the rely on sales taxes and 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:12.760 nobody's been shock. So um, this is this is and 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.440 when when you think about what that means who who 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.920 are who are the state and local employees? What are 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.760 the jobs? Basically think school teachers. About half of state 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.320 local jobs are in the education. So we're about that 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.720 a situation where because of a pandemic, we're gonna have 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.280 mass layoffs of school teachers, which is absolutely insane. And Uh. 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.000 But unless we get hundreds of billions of dollars of 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.880 AIG headed out for for those lower levels of government soon, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.839 that's going to happen. Well, and Paul, you mentioned this 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.640 at the outset. You know, part of the execution has 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.440 been that the money may not be going to the 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.359 right places, and and it calls to mind something I 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.640 know you've been looking at and certainly we've been talking about, 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:57.159 which is the inequalities that are really being exposed, many 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.160 inequalities candidly that you've been writing about four years in 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.359 years by this crisis. You know, you think about the 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.400 restaurant industry, You think about frontline workers, You think about 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.279 the fact that folks like us candidly we have the 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.719 ability to do our jobs from home, there are many 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.760 who don't. What do we need to do. What can 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.160 we do in the short term to try and alleviate 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.479 some of that huge structural problem. Well, again, I think 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.240 the the interesting thing about this one is that this is, uh, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:31.840 for once, it's not a problem of low wages. It's 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:33.800 a problem of no wages. We're having a problem with 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.520 people are just losing jobs and uh, we're probably uh 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.520 it's going to be probably twenty five million or more 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.600 jobs at least lost. Um And we can rush aid 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.120 now the the Cares Act that that big two trillion 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.480 dollar bill did uh not only enhance on them playing basis, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.000 but expanded the scope, which is the right thing to do. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.640 The trouble is as far as I can tell, almost 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.320 nobody as we need those benefits yet I mean it 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.640 expanded it to big book as contractors self employed. But 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.360 but the state offices uh can't even deal with the 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:13.920 backlog of conventional unemployments insurance claims. So that's what we 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.160 What you need is is we need to be getting 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.680 income out to lots of people. I would say that 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.560 that is, Um, this is a case where it's not 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.720 hard to determine who who needs aid. You know, sometimes 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.120 you can worry about it if this is administratively complicated. 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.680 It's not. Now it's really it. Uh. And particularly since 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.600 since it's such an emergency. Uh if a few a 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.200 few undeserving people get some money, who cares? Uh? The 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.480 important point is it's the tens of millions of people 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.880 who are suffering. So but and when we should take lessons, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:48.680 I mean, this will this is not going to be 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.480 the last crisis we face. I am curious what your 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.920 perspective is to Like, we have a headline crossing United 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:59.520 Airlines said to offer shares fifty they're offering up over 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.239 thirty million shares. I mean they're looking to raise money, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.080 we get it. What is the balance between helping big 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.040 companies as well as small companies, but big companies in particular, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.480 who do employ thousands and hundreds of thousands and millions 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.640 of workers around the country. What's what's the balance between 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.400 helping them out, which is kind of big bailouts, you know, 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.880 versus helping you know, individuals. What is what is the 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.160 how do you see from an economic point of view, 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.440 what's the balance about what we need to do or 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.080 do we need to be all in on all of it? Well, 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.080 we need to be all in with the caveat that 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.400 we shouldn't be in the business of wrestling um stockholders particularly, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:44.880 I mean this is uh the uh famous Rami corporations 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:46.480 are people and my friend but he but he actually 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.000 meant was that they employee people, and their employees are 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.600 absolutely just because someone happen to work for a big 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.559 company doesn't mean that they're less deserving of help than 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.320 someone who's working for a small company. But but we 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.880 want that to be bailouts that that uh where the 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:07.319 taxpayers aren't aren't bailing out wealthy individuals who who are 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.240 who are in you know stockholders? Uh so look we 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:15.520 the auto bailout done to the Bio administration was actually 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.840 a pretty good bailout. It saved a lot of jobs. Um, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.280 the cerebral government got a large ownership stakes, so it 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.360 wasn't too much of bailout of the stockholders. Um. It 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.960 wasn't perfect. But if we could do something like that, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.679 of course, now we have to deal with with with 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:34.400 something that is is maybe twenty times that big. But 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.719 it's you know, with with a will with some If 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.760 if we had a real full court press from hate 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.880 sports metaphors and business way right, with a full court 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.960 a full court press from from from Trump administration officials, 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:55.360 bringing in lots of people too, uh, experts from many 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.040 fields to to do this, then then we could. But 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.480 because nothing like that is happening. So what we're having 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.360 is a kind of uh handwaving. We're throwing a lot 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.560 of money, We're actually throwing a lot of guarantees, um, 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.240 but leaving it up to banks to make the to 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.280 decide who gets the money, um, which is really a 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.240 derelation of responsibility. I mean, there's gonna be waste frog abuse. 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.120 When you're gonna be spending probably in the end five 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.280 billion dollars to rescue the economy, there's gonna be hundreds 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.559 of billions of waste frog in abuse. But that's not 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.240 but that's a secondary point. But you do want to 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.040 try and make sure that as much as possible, if 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:34.680 the money goes to the people who you've been needed. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.480 So I want to talk a little bit about experts. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.839 You mentioned that just a second ago of Paul, you 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.439 had a pretty provocative column yesterday, Uh in the New 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.560 York Times. All your columns are provocative. That's what we 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.480 love talking to. UM. I mean, this has been a 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.679 pretty remarkable thing to watch. Your column was called the 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.000 right sends in the Quacks. This has been the big 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.880 issue over the past few days of when to reopen 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.720 the economy, who says what, who's leaning on which data? 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.560 We have a big story in Bloomberg Business Week this 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.760 week about the data being essentially unreliable in many ways 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:15.720 or easily uh manipulated. How do we solve that problem? Well, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.120 you have to make educated guesses, but you also have 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.480 to ask what are the consequences of being wrong in 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.640 which direction? So you know the UM let's talk about 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.319 one area of the US government that remains extremely competent, 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.920 which is fair reserve. Uh. The FED doesn't know what's 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.040 happening to the economy any better than the rest of 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.120 us do. They're also grasping at very incomplete numbers, but 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.480 they've decided that the risks of doing too little vastly 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.760 outweigh the risks of uh of doing too much, so 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:48.240 they're going all out. The trouble is, I don't see 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:53.959 I mean, uh, the the White House team UH is 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:59.320 not exactly people who inspire competents. I mean uh. Wilbert 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.640 Ross told us that this virus was going to be 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.240 good for American jobs. Larry Cutlow told us that the 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.040 was contained and the economic impact was going to be 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.880 minor um. And there's been no changes. No one else 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.480 had been brought on board. It would have been interesting 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.920 to see you have some sort of national unity, say 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.320 if the Economy Group brought together, but there's been not 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.520 a hint of that. It's it's basically, the economic recovery 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.440 program is being overseen by by people who's it seems 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.240 to be a fundamental requirement that they have been wrong 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.600 about everything so far. You know, it's so funny. We 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:35.800 talked so much on Bloomberg and I'm sorry, you know 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.520 about the importance of diversity of thought right to come 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.480 out with the best programs and conclusions and thoughts about things. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.160 And and I don't want to get too political because 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.560 everybody's gonna yell at me on Twitter. Um, but I 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.160 do think about that, right, Well, you would concede that 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.560 you do want diversity. I thought, you want some conservatives, 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.719 you want some liberals, you want people to figure out 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.120 the best policy here. Oh, I'd be happy to see 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:04.319 people called in from American Enterprise Institute, Cato Institute, the 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.760 uh uh, you know the uh. What's interesting? Actually, as 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.880 far as I can make out, there's there's a surprising 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.160 amount of consensus if you look at the economic recovery 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.160 plans that are coming out from American Enterprise INSTITO, which 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.120 is fairly conservative, and coming out from the Center for 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:25.520 American Progress, which is which is very liberal. Um, they 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.559 don't look that different, but they do look extremely different 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.600 from what Trump is doing. So uh yeah, I mean 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.319 I'm all four. So So what what's the risk here? 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:37.840 We've only got about I think a minute or so 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.600 left here? Um, what's the risk by not really having 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.160 the best people working on this for us? What? What 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:46.360 do you see the risk here? Got about a minute left? Too? 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.760 Risks too risks. One is that we loosen up prematurely 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.679 and we have a whole second wave, and I'm now 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.360 terrified that that's going to happen. Uh. And the other 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.560 risk is that because we don't provide enough aid, we 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:02.280 leave lots of people, businesses, individuals, states, focal governments would 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.040 cripple the balance sheets, which means that we never get 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.520 a full recovery, or it takes years and years so 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.760 that the hangover, the the convalescence from this thing goes 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.439 on and on. And that's both of those are are 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.600 really serious risks right now. Alright, well, we're gonna leave 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.320 it there a somber note, but a realistic one. As always, 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.200 we really really value our time with you and really 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.000 deeply appreciated. Paul Krugman is Distinguished Professor of Economics at 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.840 the City University of New York, also, of course in 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.840 New York Times, calumnist and author. We are delighted to 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.560 spend some time with him. And I was madly and 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.520 I could see YouTube Carol like scribbling downloads of interesting things, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.200 planning to include this in our weekend because that's why 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.760 he's a Nobel laureate. Folks. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.960 with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. We 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.680 want to turn our attention now to our minds, our 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.040 mental health. No one better to talk about it then 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.840 Richard Pierce, and he's the co founder and the CEO 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.440 of Headspace. You know the app. You know people who 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.920 use it? I use it, Carol? Do you use it? 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.520 I haven't app full disclosures on my phone? Use it 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.320 on my phone as well. Rich joins us. Rich joins 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:17.160 us from Santa Monica, California. Great to have you with us. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.160 Really appreciate your time. Yes, thanks for having me. I 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.000 really appreciate it. All right, So let's take stock here 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.400 if we can. This is a really tough time for people. 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.240 What do you make of it and what should we 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:34.160 be thinking about, most prominently when we think about taking 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.360 care of our our mental health at a time of 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:42.040 such upheaval. Yeah. Well, I think the first thing is 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.080 that I think that this situation has brought to the 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:48.480 surface a lot of the mental health issues I think 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.720 maybe sitting under the surface that maybe we're unaddressed. And 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.800 I think when you are forced into a situation where 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.800 you it's much harder to you know, partake in all 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.360 the almost distractions that we that we that we kind 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.640 of do as human beings. I think it brings these 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.200 things and makes them kind of more acute. And so 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:09.560 I think for the first time in a long time, 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.000 we are actually looking at the state of our mind, 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.800 and you know, for some of us, is incredibly challenging. UM. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.160 So I think that you know, the things that we're 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.200 hearing from Folcus with a few things. I think one, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.400 I'm not sure that mental health was a topic that 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.800 was being discussed in every single boardroom. Um, I think 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.160 it's being discussed in every single boardroom now. I think 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.840 we're definitely seeing um, you know, and we've seen that 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.680 we've had like up to four increased in terms of 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.680 enterprise inquiries for our kind of be to be offering. 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:47.200 So we're definitely seeing an increased there. Um, We're I 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:49.400 think the other piece that's come you know, that comes 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880 to us is a lot around parenting and kids at home. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.480 I think people are really struggling with how do they 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.880 balance work life and and kind of raising children at 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.360 home is a really really tricky things for folks, and 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.200 they'd like two big things that are definitely coming towards 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.000 us as we're seeing this crisis unfold. Totally agree. I 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.760 feel like it's another one of those situations where we 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.480 know the stuff's out there, and yet it's not until 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.520 we have a crisis to people like, wow, this is 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.520 a problem. One thing I want to get too rich. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.920 I have a sister who's worked in the mental health 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.360 profession for years and has just talked about how it's 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.359 taken even the medical community and even like health insurance 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.520 a long time to respect that mental health and a 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.080 healthy mental health is as important as you know, your 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.240 physical and medical well being. Um, Are we seeing that 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:43.080 change significantly? Will something like COVID nineteen help even move 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.480 the needle on that one even more? Yeah, I absolutely 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.760 think it's accelerated our kind of belief that we've had. 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.280 You know, we've always believed that mental health is the 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.160 kind of um, you know, inextrictly linked from physical health, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:17:59.439 and I think even if you look at all the 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:04.080 research around stress related chronic diseases, that you cannot separate 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.320 out the two. It's it really is kind of whole 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.240 personal health, not just physical health. So I think we're 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.639 definitely going to see an acceleration towards people understanding that 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.280 looking after the health of your mind. We believe is 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.080 actually the most precious resource UM, and we think of 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:20.840 it as your hard drive. You know, if if your 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.000 mind is not healthy, how can you actually make healthy choices, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.240 the things that you eat, the exercise you take, the 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.199 relationships that you have, how you sleep. It really is 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.119 the core component of living a healthy and balanced life. 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.679 And I think it's been able to be pushed to 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.080 the on the back burner, and some people have been 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.040 open to it. And obviously some people are way out 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:45.120 in front when I think of certain organizations and healthcare systems, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.879 But I think this crisis has made it top of 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.480 everyone's agenda because everyone's dealing with it in real time. 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.960 So I absolutely believe that this is going to shift 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:01.080 the whole conversation and this next wave of UM kind 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.760 of looking for ways that we can support people with 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.679 their mental health because we cannot train enough doctors. You know, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:11.240 you've mentioned your system. We cannot train enough people UM 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:12.960 at one on one like, We're going to have to 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:15.560 think of scalable ways that we can we can solve 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.720 these issues. Where I think platforms like so like yours 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.399 are like play right to that. Yeah, exactly mean you 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.440 give us a perfect bridge to to talk about headspace. 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.480 I mean when you think about folks who were ahead 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.840 of it and out there, I mean you and Andy 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.560 founded this. Uh Andy puddycumb whose voice has been in 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.119 my head many, many, many many times, uh founded this 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:42.280 in you were out ahead of this. What have you learned, 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.840 especially that you're applying now over those years, over those 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.960 ten years or so, Uh, that that might be useful 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.160 to to folks listening right now. Yeah. I think one 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.480 of the things is, you know, where for folks to 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.119 ask themselves the question of where did they pro as 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.280 size their mental health? But what do they actually do 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.119 for their mind? Um? You know, we spend a lot 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.760 of time looking after our physical appearance and other things 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.879 in life, but how much time do we actually spend 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.800 looking after our most pretty depressions resource. I think that's 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.240 an interesting question for all of us to ask, um. 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.840 And then you know I would be I would be biased, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.240 but I do think that Um, you know, a mindfulness practice, 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.360 however you apply that, whether that's with a seated meditation practice, 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.840 whether that's applying it to the way that you run, 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.160 whether it's applying that the way that you eat. UM. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.080 I think there's so many different ways that you can 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.600 apply mindfulness in your life, and the biggest benefit of 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.240 that is it gives you a different relationship with your 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.120 thoughts and your emotions. And if we think about stress, 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.520 most of our stress is caused by our thoughts and 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.439 our emotions. And it's not to say that thoughts and 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.840 emotions are necessarily bad, but if we can practice a 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.560 technique by meditation or mindfulness, we can actually create some 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.960 distance between those thoughts and those emotions and therefore not 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.720 get so swept up in them as they they occur. 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.320 And I think that that process is um is one 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.040 of the most valuable things that you can do for 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.960 your ongoing mental health. And to not to look at 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:11.760 it is I think so many people think about it. Right, 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:13.880 I get really really stressed, and I do a little 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:15.879 exercise and I went so so stressed. More like an 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:18.919 aspirin um. If we can actually think about it is 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.679 as a kind of a vitsman or vitamin as you 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.760 say in America, that we can get to prevention. You know, 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:28.600 you could think about doing this. You're going to the the gym, 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.879 one you're not going to get fit. Our guest at 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.160 this hour is rich Pearson, co founder and chief executive 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.320 officer of Headspace, joining us on the phone from Santa Monica. 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:38.320 You know, it's funny. I can't even tell you, Rich 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:40.760 the conversation that was going with our team here at 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.280 Bloomberg Business Week, our technical staff, our producer stuff, were like, 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.000 are you on this app? Are you on this app? 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.120 There's a lot of apps out there, and I think 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.120 that alone can be stressful and overwhelming about like kind 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:56.239 of figuring how do you create meditation practice? You know 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.880 that's calming and you don't feel overwhelmed like I gotta 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.120