WEBVTT - BONUS: The Pay Check, Episode 5 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:08.959 M M. I have a question for you, Claire. If 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.320 a company knows it has a pay gap and it 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.080 wants to fix it, why not just pay women more. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.960 I mean, it makes sense to me, but it's not 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.639 actually that easy. In the short term, it works, but 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:26.800 as a permanent solution not really. Take Salesforce, for example, 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.360 the big San Francisco software company. They tried it and 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.839 they're still working on it. The process started in two 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.839 thousand fifteen when they decided to do an audit to 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.479 find out if they even had a pay gap that 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.440 first year. They kept it pretty simple. They looked only 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.080 at base salaries people with the same job type, broken 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.960 down by gender. They found that six percent of Salesforce's 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.360 employees were being underpaid for no apparent reason. It wasn't 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.080 because they were working fewer hours or didn't have a 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:02.840 lot of experience. They working pairing software developers to software developers, 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.559 receptionists to receptionists. So did they then pay those people 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.640 more money? Yep, Salesforce spent three million dollars that first 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.240 year bumping people up. Granted, its revenue that year was 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.679 six point seven billion, but still that's a lot of money. 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.600 And not just women got races. There were some men 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.560 who were being underpaid too, So then everything was fixed. Yep, 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:32.160 the end. No, actually it was the exact opposite. When 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.839 they did the audit again the following year, they added 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.160 race to the equation, factored in bonuses in addition to 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.520 base pay, and found another eleven percent of people who 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:46.000 are underpaid. Fixing that cost the company another three million dollars. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.840 Here's Cindy Robbins, the head of HR at Salesforce. That 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.920 second year was also a big learning for us because 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.720 it was a year that we had just finished acquiring 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.000 some of our biggest acquisitions, four team companies that we 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.560 acquire the previous year. So when you acquire fourteen companies, 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.560 you acquire also their pay practices. So they keep bumping 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.480 up people's salaries. But are they doing anything to keep 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.040 the paygap from coming back again and again? Yeah, they are. 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.560 They figured out that those eleven percent of people, a 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.359 lot of them were new to the company and had 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.080 basically arrived at Salesforce already underpaid, and Salesforce had been 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.280 naively basing their salaries off their old ones. Are recruiting 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:34.040 organization is no longer asking the question what is your 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.840 current compensation. Now it's what is a compensation you expect, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.400 which is making candidates pause and think about it, And 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:44.920 we're not forcing them to answer it on the spot. 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.320 They may need some time to do their own level 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.160 of research and come back to us. Yeah, but asking 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.880 someone what they think they should make still puts the 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.920 burden on them to say what they deserve exactly. And 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.839 if you're underpaid but don't know it, you might low 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.440 all your own offer. So it's not a perfect solution. No, 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.560 And when they did the analysis again this year, Salesforce 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.800 found another six percent gap, costing another two point seven 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.960 million dollars. Part of the problem is that there's so 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.000 many factors that go into creating the pay gap, Plus 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.200 Cindy keeps thinking of new factors to add to her analysis. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.040 I never thought to myself, oh, should I look at 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.040 how we distribute merit? Oh should I look at how 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.680 we distribute promotions at the beginning of the year, by gender, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.800 by pay practices. It sounds like Salesforce is trying and 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.520 has made some strides, but it hasn't fixed the pay gap. No, 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.200 and the company doesn't expect to fix it as then 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.520 eliminate the entire issue. Anytime soon. The pay gap is 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.880 just a numerical reflection of the way or society and 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.680 economy are set up. No matter what size your company is, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.800 you're probably going to encounter at least some of the 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.480 factors that lead to the pay gap. That's something Cindy 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.200 says has been hard for people to understand. You know, 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.280 do we still want to be fixing six percent of 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.280 the population. No, But you know, it's an audit and 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.920 data is being inputed, Assumptions sometimes are being made. I 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.880 think you're always going to have to do the audit 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.680 every single year, and that they're always there's always going 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:18.760 to be some level of room for error, and that's 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.120 the error you want to identify and you want to fix. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:25.919 But our systems perfect to ensure that we are paying 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:30.080 everyone equally, not yet, and that's what we're working on. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.680 When you look at the world, you know what the 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.239 population like, Where is our place like? Where is our value? 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.800 Women deserve equal for equal work and nation one, the 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.520 median salary for men is greater than women in nine 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:55.320 point six percent of major occupations women do they want. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.240 We want to end gender inequality, and to do this 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:04.760 we need everyone involved. It's a concept called information a symmetry. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:06.440 If you don't know what the going rate is for 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.200 your salary, it's easier for the company to rip you off. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.560 Girl Power equalization between the sexy. I ask no favor 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.919 for my sex. All I ask of our reden is 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:24.400 that they take their feet or fur lex. Welcome back 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:30.040 to the paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield. Salesforces struggle brings up 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.200 an important point about fixing the pay gap. One company 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.680 paying women more money is like taking advil for a 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.800 broken bone. The pain is going to come back until 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.520 the bone heals. That's why Salesforce has to do it's 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:49.080 pay audits year after year. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.720 and it also only addresses one facet of the pay gap, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.440 not the issue of the highest paying jobs generally being 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.960 held by men. But there are solutions to the pay 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.839 gap that attempt to heal the bone. Take how Salesforce 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.480 no longer asks new hires what they made at their 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.799 previous jobs. Women tend to start out at lower salaries 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.279 than men, so basing salaries on what people were paid 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:20.520 before only perpetuates that inequality. They're about a dozen places, 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.520 including Massachusetts, California, and New York City, where asking about 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:29.600 a job applicants previous salary is illegal. But the solution 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.040 isn't perfect. Like I talked about with Player, women can 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.640 still end up making less than men for other reasons. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.120 They might low ball their offers, they might be perceived 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.600 as too aggressive during a negotiation. They might still not 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.839 ask for enough money. But there's more than one way 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.760 to treat paid disparities at a deeper level, like total 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.800 salary transparency. If everyone knew how much everyone else was making, 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.000 then it would be tough for employers to get away 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.160 with paying certain people less for no reason. And if 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.640 you know what you could be making, you're more likely 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:09.440 to ask for what you deserve. Total pay transparency is 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:14.160 kind of extreme. People generally don't like talking about money, 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.960 and right now employers take advantage of that. It allows 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.440 them to keep a chunk of salaries below market rate, 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.320 and that saves the money. One person who refuses to 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.120 buy into that social taboo is Jen Schiffer. She's a 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.680 software engineer in New York, and she talks about her 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.080 salary about as freely as other New Yorkers talk about 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:39.760 real estate prices. But I've always been super like transparent 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.680 with people who asked me to be with my salary, 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.280 which kind of got me in trouble of my last 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:49.440 job without like Trump, troubles of fake idea. But I 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.040 did have coworkers who are upset at how much I 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:56.360 was talking about and trying to talk about. Luckily, Jen 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.560 now works at fog Creek, a small software company that 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.480 last to your instituted a policy known as radical pay transparency, 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.120 everyone within a company knowing what everyone else is making 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:15.120 more or less. I decided to investigate, you know, for 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.440 me at a personal level, it was about treating workers right. 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.600 That's a Neil dash the CEO of fog Creek. He 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.400 took over the company in December. He came with a 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.880 mission to make fog Creek and tech in general more 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.160 fair to people, regardless of gender or race. You know, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.240 I grew up in a household with you know, my 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.000 mom being in the union her whole life, and and 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.480 you know, understanding the importance of respecting workers. I don't 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.720 think it's any secreted women and other underrepresented groups in 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.920 tech that end up trying to negotiate their way to 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.959 face fair salaries may or may not get there and 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.720 really sort of ending up behind right when they start, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.240 and that permanently impacts the trajectory of your whole things 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.800 over your lifetime. The company only has about three dozen employees, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:10.320 but still that's no guarantee people were being paid fairly. Transparency, 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:14.000 in theory, would not only reveal any pain equalities that 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.040 had cropped up in the twenty years fog Creek existed 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.480 before and Neil got there, it would also help ensure 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.640 that things stayed equal over the long term by holding 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.240 the company accountable. Here's Jessica Moy, the head of culture, 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.599 which is like hr at fog Creek. I was a 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.960 little nervous that going from you know, not transparency to 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.559 transparency it was going to kind of like create adverse 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.600 reactions for certain people because I just didn't know. I mean, 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:44.360 people reactively differently to sharing financial information and people's level 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.560 of comfortability. It's very different. Like I said, people don't 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.880 like talking about money, people who make too much money 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.679 don't want to feel guilty about it, and people not 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.600 making enough don't want to feel like dupes. That's why 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.520 fog Creek decided to take transparency slow, and Neil sent 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.439 out a survey asking people what kind of salary information 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.040 they'd be okay with sharing. He found out not everyone 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.839 was as enthusiastic about pay transparency as he was. There 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.440 were some people that were just sort of like, I 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:16.440 don't know how I feel about this. I've never encountered 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.200 this question before. I don't know what the implications are 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.640 about talking about my pay and and and in some 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.640 cases really going deep into it with some of our 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.120 team members, and they were like, you know, my family 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.640 has never talked about pay, and I'm you know, I'm 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.520 worried about like open salary transparency because like my brother 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.280 and I don't know what each other makes, and like 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.400 I don't want that to be awkward at Thanksgiving. Even 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.720 gen Scheffer, who talked a big game about salary transparency, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:42.280 had some anxiety. I'm like, are there other engineers here 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.520 comparing themselves to me? And if they find out I'm 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.360 making like more than them, will they feel slight? And 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.439 if I'm making less than them, will they feel like 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.439 that's fair? Like I I don't know, Like I don't know. 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.520 I'm the I'm the only woman on my team, and 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.480 so there's not many women engineers at the company. I 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.800 am always very insecure about whether guys I work with 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:12.040 or alongside, would think that I am as valuable as 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.800 a company says I am. Still not a single person 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.800 said they preferred the status quo. The company wanted more 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:24.000 pay transparency. The next step before telling anybody anything about 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.640 what their colleagues were making was to do an internal 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.800 audit of compensation at fog Creek, and we found that 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.280 we had inequities. I mean, I think any any company 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.280 that's been around for more than five minutes is going 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.000 to if they're being honest. And Neil used the data 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.400 to help and figure out what constituted fair pay. In 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.920 the first place. He looked at what people on each 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.600 team we're making, and then he compared that information for 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.880 similar positions that he found on sites like pay scale. 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.080 Using all of that, he decided on a range that 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.680 made sense for each job title. I was curious to 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.960 know if, as expected, women had ended up making less 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.360 than men. Yeah. I think the majority of people that 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.240 were at the high end of the range or men 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.240 for sure, But I think the people that weren't the 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.280 low end of the range two were also men. So like, 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.160 it's probably reflecting more the fact that we don't have 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.800 as good a gender balance as you should to men 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.679 are over indexed on both the high end low end 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.439 of the spectrum. He raised the salaries of two people 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.679 he found out weren't making enough money even before making 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.280 all the pay data public, But there were also some 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.240 people he found who were making too much money. Those 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:35.680 people got to stay where they were rather than go 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.520 for truly radical pay transparency. Bog Creek decided to share 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.560 just those salary ranges with no names attached, just job titles, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.480 and Neil wouldn't tell me what those were exactly, But 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.520 finally last September he was ready to share them with 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.480 the rest of the company. At one of their monthly 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.480 town hall meetings, he gathered everyone together. Some people were 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.480 actually in the office but others were remote, and he 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:04.160 put all the data up on the screen and there 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.160 wasn't a mutiny, but not everyone was happy. You know, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.480 some stuff we screwed up, Like we have some departments 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.120 as a small company that are one person, so we 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.680 listed a salary range for the role of the only 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.120 person in that department and they're like, okay, well, my 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.760 salary is basically out there like everybody else is in 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.520 a team, and it's a range. But they're like, if 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:25.800 if this is the only person in this role, everybody 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.319 knows exactly what I make to within a five thousand 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.600 dollar band. Jessica moy was one of the people who 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.640 didn't have anonymity. I'm the only person in my position, 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.320 so it's pretty clear, like my this is Jessica's Valerie band, 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.280 and everyone knows that's my job. And I never had 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.920 any issue with that, So for me, it wasn't like 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:48.800 a thing to process. I was like, this is what 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.720 I make. Even though Jessica didn't mind that everyone knew 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.120 her salary, you can see why some people might. Jun 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.560 Scheffer was also in a range of her own, but 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.320 she had a different problem him. I think it was like, 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.280 some of these ranges are pretty wide, but I would 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.640 feel more comfortable of bringing in other underrepresented people into 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.280 the company once I know it's like completely fair and 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.720 Neil knows he has more work to do. To Jen's point, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.679 after the town hall, fog Creek decided to put salary 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.080 ranges on all of its job postings so that people 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.640 know they're getting hired on a level playing field. You 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.840 can't build trust just by saying trust me and not 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.280 showing anybody the work, especially in in tech, whereas so 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.680 many people have come from other companies that weren't treating 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.120 them right there weren't weren't you know, being fair to them, UM, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.120 and so transparency is just the foundation upon which you 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.440 build a relationship between an employer and a worker that 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.560 is trusting. And you know, we try to do that 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.080 and everything we do. Given how much anil believes in 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.760 pay transparency, I asked him how transparent he planned to 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.440 be with his own salary. It was absurd because I said, 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.600 this is the range that I make the bottom of it. 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:04.080 So I like, UM, made a structure for any future CEO. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.240 I guess, but I was. I just sort of disclosed 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.840 my personal salary because I was like, I don't I 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:10.600 want to model the thing I want people to feel 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:18.040 comfortable doing. Up to now, we've just been trying to 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.040 solve the pay gap by looking at the numbers. But 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:22.840 there are all kinds of things that happen at the 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.640 office and at different points in women's careers that make 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.800 a big difference over time in the amount of money 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:31.239 they make. And the biggest thing of all is motherhood. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.000 Nothing trash is your earning potential, like having a kid. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.160 Men and women start their careers making about the same 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.240 amount of money, But the pay gap really starts to 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.800 show up when men and women hit their late twenties. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.600 That is, when employers think women are about to have kids. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.360 One study found that the bulk of the pay gap 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.640 happens between ages twenty six and thirty three for college 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.280 educated women. And this isn't just because women cut back 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.560 their hours to pick up slack at home. Mothers make 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:05.440 proportionately less than men based on ours worked, research has found. 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.960 So what if we could do something about that, make 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.680 sure women could have kids and keep earning as much 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.640 money as their male colleagues. Adobe, the San Jose based 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.080 company that makes design software and also the flash plug 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.240 in you used to watch videos on the internet, last 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.800 year announced that they closed their gender pay gap one 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.640 percent in the US. That's for men and women doing 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.880 the same jobs, But that still doesn't mean the working 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.840 environment was perfectly equal, especially for women and men who 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.600 have kids. My colleague Ellen Hewitt explains, Caitlin Azzie works 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.240 at Adobe as a recruiter, but right now she's on 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.400 maternity leave. So Dylan was born on New Year's Eve, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:49.760 so she squeaked in there. We got the tax right 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:54.600 off and everything. So and she was ten pounds six ounces, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.720 huge baby. Yeah, we have big babies in our family. 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.560 Both men and women at Adobe get sixteen weeks of 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.800 paid paternal or maternal leave, regardless of whether they're the 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.720 primary caregiver. Birth Mothers get an additional ten weeks of 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.639 medical leave. That's compared to less than six weeks at 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.639 the average private company in the US that offers paid 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.280 leave for a new child, so already they're doing pretty well. 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.600 On top of that, the company gives employees the option 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.719 to take a more flexible work schedule, like when they 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.400 come back from leave. They call it Adobe Flex Time. 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:40.480 This is Ellen Ellen. I met with Caitlin along with 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.440 Rosemary Arianta Keiper, who oversees the flex Time program. Here's Caitlin. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:47.679 I'm learning with me in a new mom It's like 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.040 you can plan for the you know, every single thing, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.719 but nothing really goes to plan. So just having it 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.000 be you know, maybe I need to work from home 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.280 a couple of times a month, or you know, three 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.480 times in this one week, or just having that to 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.640 me is really really I can see be very helpful 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.600 when I return back to work, coming back to work 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.800 after having a child can be really hard, no matter 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.719 how much time you got from eternity leave, you're just 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.720 starting to figure out what being a mom is like, 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.639 or how to juggle caring for the kids you already 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.919 have plus the infant you just brought home. Without the 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.679 flexibility to ease back into full time work, some women 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.240 might decide to downshift to part time, which drastically limits 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.399 their earning potential. That usually involves a job switch, and 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.200 if going back to your old job with a new 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.760 baby is difficult, finding a new job is much much harder, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:39.879 especially when you factor in the cost of daycare. In 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.000 the US, lots of women decide that it's just too 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.000 much and stay home for good. When Caitlin comes back 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.359 to work this month, she plans to take a day 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.880 each week to work from home so she can spend 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.600 the afternoons with her daughter. Adobe has offered the flex 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.159 time option for years, but it was only in the 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.159 last year that they started promote doing it internally and 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.320 training managers how to talk to their employees about it. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.359 For Caitlin, that was a hugely important change. She was 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.919 already nearing her due date by the time she found 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.480 out the option existed. I think, um, before they rolled 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.320 out this program and the framework was more standardized, I 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.840 don't necessarily think people first knew that this was an option. 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.360 I think it gives people, at least me, a little 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.439 bit more of empowerment to think about what I need first. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.280 Before they rolled it out, I just assumed I'd come 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.359 back full time and you know, you would be a 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.600 hard couple of weeks and then you just get thrown 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.520 back in and that's that. And um, that was sort 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.280 of my assumption. And so I just don't think people 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.520 want to ask for for more unless they, you know, 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.320 unless it's something that they can say, hey, it's a 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.360 point to a policy or point to something that's more normalized, 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.159 because I think there is a you know, there is 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.760 always pressure to be here if you can and things 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:58.040 like that. Rosemary knows that pressure well. As the vice 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.440 president of Global Rewards for a OBI. She knew that 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.400 even though the option for a flexible schedule was out there, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:07.679 a lot of people who might benefit from it weren't 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.679 taking it. Yeah, I think there was the sentiment of 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.359 not realizing that they could take it. It does seem 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.399 to give permission and lend itself to the ability to 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.200 be able to say, look, this is documented somewhere, it's 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.320 kind of a formal policy. They're promoted. So it does 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.960 seem to give more permission to individuals to feel like 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.560 they can ask for it. You know, oftentimes the type 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.280 of relationship you have with a manager and kind of 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.800 the value system or or what they believe is important 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.080 dictates oftentimes how much they're willing to provide flexibility. And 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.360 what we realized was in some organizations it happened seamlessly, 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.359 it wasn't an issue, and in others, um managers weren't 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.960 as willing um to do it because they felt like 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.120 they had demands or or weren't sure how they could 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:57.080 um manage the program equitably across the organization. Since making 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.480 Adobe flex time more of a formal policy less September, 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.840 Adobe has seen a ten increase in the number of 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.879 people choosing it. Rosemary says that the more normal a 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.400 flexible work schedule seems, the less likely it is that 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.760 people who take advantage of it will be implicitly penalized 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.160 for doing so. Because here's what's worrisome right now. Even 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.119 though both parental leave and flex time are offered to 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.120 men and women, men are still taking way less time off. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.679 What we're seeing is is most men, on average are 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.520 taking closer to one month. And the feedback that we've 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.040 got is is is because you know I've got we 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.600 don't both need to be at home. Is essentially the 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.960 response that we've gotten, even though they both have the 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.760 ability to be at home. The point of encouraging men 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.080 to use programs like parental leave and flex time isn't 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.960 just so that women have some help at home, although 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.199 it's that too. The point is so that women and 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.199 men share the burden of childcare more equally, including the 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.680 workplace penalties that come with it. When you miss a 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.000 may your career opportunity because you're at home taking care 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.879 of the kids. That can be frustrating. But right now, 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.720 women still do twice as much of the childcare in 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.439 the US. That means that those missed opportunities are falling 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.840 disproportionately on them. I'd love to see more men start 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.840 taking the time off right and taking advantage of these programs, 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.040 because I think that act in itself will also kind 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:33.320 of level the paying field. Two parents each with the 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.520 flexibility to balance work and home life. It does sound 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:43.000 pretty idyllic, It's also good for women's earnings. A study 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.800 in Sweden found that for each month of paternity leave 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.480 the father takes, the mother's income rises by an average 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.920 of seven percent. But in the US, at least, we're 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.399 a long way from that kind of thing being normal. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.320 Only of private sector workers get any paid for rental 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.600 leave at all. Changing the way we deal with women 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:08.280