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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When it comes to

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Speaker 1: death investigation, there's things along the journey of an investigator

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Speaker 1: that you encounter as just a person that is put

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Speaker 1: into this crazy world where you're bearing witness to the

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Speaker 1: end of life, and those elements that you observe in there,

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Speaker 1: you know, go back to a statement I'm fond of making,

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Speaker 1: and that is observing the abnormal and the context of

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Speaker 1: the normal. And this applies, I think also to items

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Speaker 1: that we use daily for whatever reason. You know. It

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Speaker 1: can be everything from no paper that maybe you're familiar

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Speaker 1: with that you see that you have possession of in

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Speaker 1: your own home that people have to scratch out a note,

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Speaker 1: or it could be a vehicle that you encounter that

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Speaker 1: maybe you have a friend that has one just like it,

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Speaker 1: but yet it's involved in a death. Today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about something that's rather innocuous. It's a little

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Speaker 1: plastic strip that we're all familiar with now, and I

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Speaker 1: guess a few years ago we weren't necessarily so aware

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Speaker 1: of them. But I've got a bunch of them around

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Speaker 1: the house. I use them for all manner of things.

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Speaker 1: It's zip ties, little bits of plastic with teeth that

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Speaker 1: you can use to bind and hold things in place.

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Speaker 1: It plays a crucial role in an ongoing death investigation

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Speaker 1: in Sandford, Florida. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I've got zip tiz ling all around the house. Some

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Speaker 1: people call them a cable ties. And my wife loves

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Speaker 1: to travel, so anytime we're loading up the car, I always,

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Speaker 1: you know, feel the need to obsess over making sure

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Speaker 1: that things are secure and that they're in place. And

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Speaker 1: I've been known to use a zip tie to hold

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Speaker 1: certain things down on the luggage track on top of

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Speaker 1: my truck. Say truck and I got an old SUV

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Speaker 1: and you know, just hold it in place. I'm terrified.

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Speaker 1: I'm terrified of things flying off going down the middle

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Speaker 1: of the road, say. And most of the time, I

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Speaker 1: view a zip tie as something that is essentially it

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Speaker 1: has this level of security to it that not many

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Speaker 1: other things have out there. That is immediate. It's not

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Speaker 1: like tying a rope or something like that. Once you

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Speaker 1: zip this baby, it's there in place.

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Speaker 2: It's easy to use. They're cheap, and it's like in

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Speaker 2: your toolbox you have duct tape and zip ties. Those

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Speaker 2: are the two guaranteed things you're going to have in there.

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Speaker 2: If you need to just be handy.

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Speaker 1: You seem like a handy kind of guy. I am not,

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Speaker 1: and so zip ties for me are like lowest common denominator.

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Speaker 1: Even though I have a boat, I'm not good at

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Speaker 1: time not so that's kind of scary. But with zip ties,

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Speaker 1: I know that if I put it in place, pretty

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Speaker 1: much unless something really catastrophic happens, that thing's going to

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Speaker 1: stay in place.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I use them too, same reason. Whether

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Speaker 2: I'm dealing with electronic wires or big stuff out by

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Speaker 2: the pool, doesn't matter. There's a zip tie for everyone.

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Speaker 2: And today we're actually going to be able to delve

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Speaker 2: into this a little bit because here's the scenario we have.

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Speaker 2: We have a couple. Joel bowsa fifty ish his girlfriend

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Speaker 2: a Joycey Cartagena. They have been together since about twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 2: That's when the pictures and things and the stories start

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Speaker 2: showing up on Joycey's Facebook page. Anyway, So starting in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, this couple dated and ended up moving in together.

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Speaker 2: They were living together and had been again for a

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Speaker 2: couple of years. Joycey was one of those people that

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Speaker 2: everybody says, beautiful inside out, smart, always consumed with the

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Speaker 2: needs of others. That's the one thing that kept being

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Speaker 2: repeated by people who were friends with and knew or

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Speaker 2: worked with Joycey Cartagena was how she always looked at

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Speaker 2: other people first. Meanwhile, her boyfriend, Joel Bouza, actually pretty

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Speaker 2: much the opposite of that. He didn't really have much

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Speaker 2: of a career. He was a handyman, worked as an

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Speaker 2: inconsistent working handyman. They'd been living together. Joel was pretty

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Speaker 2: much dependent financially on Joycey to provide the day in

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Speaker 2: and out. And by the way, joyce Cartgana spent years

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Speaker 2: working for their school board and the worked as the

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Speaker 2: secretary of one of the schools there in Central Florida,

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Speaker 2: and had for a number of years before she began

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Speaker 2: working for Jet Blue, working in customer service. With jet Blue,

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Speaker 2: she could actually log on to her computer and everything

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Speaker 2: right from the house in a virtual setting, and that

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Speaker 2: worked out really well for her. And again, she was

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Speaker 2: so well thought of and so consistent in her performance

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Speaker 2: show that when she didn't log in for her day,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't something they just blew off. At work. When

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Speaker 2: Joyce Krktahana didn't log in to do her job, people

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Speaker 2: immediately knew there was a problem and they did not

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Speaker 2: wait very long. Matter of fact, after trying all the

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Speaker 2: normal ways of getting up with her and getting no reply,

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Speaker 2: they actually they being her co workers, they call the

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Speaker 2: police and said, hey, we had a coworkerho didn't show up.

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Speaker 2: She always does, would you do well being checked on her.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we do as death investigators

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Speaker 1: is that you have to go back and check your timeline.

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Speaker 1: And I'm always kind of preaching about postmortum interval where

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Speaker 1: we measure changes after death, but more importantly, you can

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Speaker 1: have that data. However, if you don't have an additional

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Speaker 1: data set which goes to where they were expected to be,

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Speaker 1: you don't have anything really a baseline to compare it

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Speaker 1: to when they were last seen and when they are

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Speaker 1: expected to be at a location. And it's important to

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Speaker 1: try to understand context was when were they supposed to

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Speaker 1: show up at a prescribed time or go online at

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Speaker 1: a prescribed time? And the world that we live in now,

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Speaker 1: particularly in this era of COVID and lockdowns and post

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Speaker 1: COVID and kind of the world that we in dwell.

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Speaker 1: Now people have gotten used to this remote working environment.

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Speaker 1: People know when you go live on air, I say

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Speaker 1: on air, I'm using in our context, but when you

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Speaker 1: go live on a system that you're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: working on, and certainly with a system like Jed Blue.

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Speaker 2: Right, well, they're going to log in and see who's working.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I bothered him. So it was here's

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Speaker 2: a little confusion for me, Joe, And it's not that

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Speaker 2: big of a deal, but again going back to the timeline,

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Speaker 2: it does mess with me a little bit. So we

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Speaker 2: know that her co workers actually called to have a

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Speaker 2: well being checked done, and we know that her boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: Joel Boutza arrived at the home at about two ten,

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Speaker 2: and that's when all of this begins for us. The

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Speaker 2: clock started ticking about two ten in the afternoon. Police

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Speaker 2: arrived and they are told by Joel Bouza that when

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Speaker 2: he got home that afternoon from his handyman job, he

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Speaker 2: found Joycey Cartahena laying on the floor, face down, a

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Speaker 2: zip tie around her neck and he immediately Joel Boutze

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Speaker 2: starts telling police, oh, it was a suicide. She took

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Speaker 2: her own life from the very beginning from the very

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Speaker 2: first minutes he is telling them it's a suicide. Joe,

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Speaker 2: as a death investigator, when you come to this meeting

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Speaker 2: of the minds, I know that the police are first

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Speaker 2: on hand. Well, when you find a body that is

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Speaker 2: obviously dead and you know it's that the person is

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Speaker 2: no longer here, what does the first call police make.

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Speaker 1: Well, certainly when they find somebody in these conditions like this,

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Speaker 1: because this would be quite striking when they roll up

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Speaker 1: on the scene and they see this woman in this state,

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Speaker 1: every death that is that doesn't have some kind of

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Speaker 1: pre existing natural ideology, you're going to roll a detective

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Speaker 1: out there more than likely. And I have to remind

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Speaker 1: people this case is taking place in Sanford, Florida. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall this, but David, this

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Speaker 1: is you know, associated with that town is actually associated

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Speaker 1: with one of the most infamous cases probably in the

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Speaker 1: last twenty years, and that's Trayvon Martin case. It's one

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Speaker 1: of those places where we know that they have a

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Speaker 1: detective bureau, and so the detectives are going to roll

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Speaker 1: out there. It's not just going to be the bee

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Speaker 1: cop that's there. They'll probably call for crime scene text

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Speaker 1: as well to take photographs, because that's going to be essential.

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Speaker 1: You want to freeze this moment in time, because this

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Speaker 1: is an atypical case. Certainly, if you've got someone who

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Speaker 1: has allegedly taken their own life, and you've got somebody

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Speaker 1: an intimate there someone this bowsa fellow who is stating

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Speaker 1: he's lived with her now for a number of years,

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Speaker 1: so they have a very intimate relationship. He exists in

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Speaker 1: this domestic environment with her. He would have an awareness,

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Speaker 1: Whitney Dave if she's got some kind of suicidal idiation

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. But it's super bizarre.

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Speaker 2: But everybody that knewer, everybody that worked with her, the

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Speaker 2: suicide last thing on their mind, and a couple other

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Speaker 2: things come into play, and it's amazing to me how

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Speaker 2: police work through things. I know that there's no statute

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Speaker 2: of limitations on murder, and so when you have a

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Speaker 2: person who is dead under I guess the suspicious circumstances

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Speaker 2: would be the proper term. Because she's found alone in

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Speaker 2: her house, face down on the floor. Is zip time.

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Speaker 2: They've got the boyfriend saying she committed suicide, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to make a few calls say, well, does anybody

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Speaker 2: else close to her think suicide is a real thing?

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Speaker 2: Because in reality, they got to figure out more of

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Speaker 2: what's going on here, and what they first see on

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Speaker 2: her body besides the zip tie around her neck, well,

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Speaker 2: they see like carpet burns and drag marks. They can

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Speaker 2: tell that she was involved in some kind of a

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Speaker 2: scuffle before this happened. And so I'm thinking in my head,

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Speaker 2: Joe immediately jumping to conclusions because I'm an idiot, she

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Speaker 2: got into a fight and he killed her, and now

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Speaker 2: he's covering it and make it look like a suicide.

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Speaker 2: But the other side of me said, okay, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: what if they did have an argument, what if they

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Speaker 2: did get a little rough and tumble. But old handyman

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Speaker 2: Joel Boutza, he says, I'm out, I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: to work. I got a handyman job to do. You

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Speaker 2: do whatever. And she sits there and she is a

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Speaker 2: little bit bruised, a little bit, some scrapes and decides

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Speaker 2: I just can't take it anymore. I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: to check out. That's a realistic possibility, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I've had cases like that where people have

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Speaker 1: taken their own life in the wake of a domestic dispute,

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Speaker 1: and it's almost like I'm going to show you kind

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Speaker 1: of event, and of course it ends up like all suicides,

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Speaker 1: very tragically.

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Speaker 2: In this case. I'm just curious, when you have this

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Speaker 2: scenario and you're the forensic person coming to the scene,

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Speaker 2: are you going to listen to what the boyfriend says?

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Speaker 2: Are you just going to kind of block it out

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Speaker 2: and just go, here's the body. I've got to figure

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Speaker 2: out everything went on without having all this other distraction.

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Speaker 1: In my ear, it's important as the forensics person at

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Speaker 1: the scene that you look at the environment and let

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Speaker 1: the environment, as new age as it sounds, speak to

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Speaker 1: you without any static Doctor Tom Degucci, who was the

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Speaker 1: chief hemme in la many many years ago, stated early

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Speaker 1: on in his career that he learned to look at

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Speaker 1: the ceiling when he walked into a crime scene because

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to be distracted at other things. And

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Speaker 1: he would work his way down from the ceiling until

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Speaker 1: he got to the body, and he wouldn't talk to

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Speaker 1: anybody else. He wouldn't talk to cops, he wouldn't talk

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Speaker 1: to other principles that were involved in it until after

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Speaker 1: he had done his initial assessment, and in a case

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Speaker 1: like JOYSS, it's important to understand that the body is

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Speaker 1: probably going to tell you more than any witness at

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Speaker 1: the scene. I've seen people choke to death either manually,

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Speaker 1: that is, with bare hands. I've seen people that have

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Speaker 1: been choked with items which involves most of the time

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Speaker 1: a ligature, which is a fine rope or something like

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Speaker 1: this that can incclude the airway or certainly block blood

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Speaker 1: flow to the brain. I don't know that I have

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Speaker 1: ever encountered a case involving a zip tie, and that's

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Speaker 1: what really stuck out to me in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: because you have an individual that is stating that this

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Speaker 1: is a self inflicted event, and it would take a

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Speaker 1: tremendous day amount of willpower in order to licked this

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Speaker 1: upon yourself, in order to take your own life. They

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Speaker 1: are certainly far more simpler and less uncomfortable ways to

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Speaker 1: do this.

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Speaker 2: I would think a zip tie in and of itself

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Speaker 2: would be a fairly painful way to go because of

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Speaker 2: the sharp you know, most zip ties, they're kind of sharp,

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Speaker 2: you know, the plastic on the ends, and that beyond

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Speaker 2: the fact that you're choking the life out of yourself.

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Speaker 2: If that's what's happening, you've got a lot of pain

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Speaker 2: going on from that side that you wouldn't have if,

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Speaker 2: say you used a belt or something along those lines.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it is difficult because the way the zip

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Speaker 1: tie is actually designed is that it has little teeth.

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Speaker 1: Imagine like almost as if this is an old fashioned jack,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know if people nowadays can identify with

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Speaker 1: that would go up. It's kind of graduated like this,

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Speaker 1: and the higher you go, the more tension you get,

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Speaker 1: and it increases elevation with a car in that sense.

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Speaker 1: But with this you're actually constricting. It's working the opposite,

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Speaker 1: but it's got teeth that you can't back up. The

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Speaker 1: only to remove a zip tie, if you've never used one,

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Speaker 1: and I think everyone I've ever encountered is made out

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Speaker 1: of some kind of plastic, is to actually take a

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Speaker 1: sharp instrument and cut it away. Now, there are a

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Speaker 1: number of demonstrations and I kind of look them up

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Speaker 1: in advance out there of people that there's one infamously

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Speaker 1: out there with some former CIA agent that's talking about

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Speaker 1: how you break loose from zip ties if your hands

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Speaker 1: are bound with them, and police actually use zip tie

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Speaker 1: or they call them plastic cuffs to cuff people on mass.

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Speaker 1: So if you have like a big riot or something

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Speaker 1: like that, you'll see these guys with these things hooked

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Speaker 1: to their belts and those are zip ties, a form

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Speaker 1: of zip ties that they're using to restrain people instead

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Speaker 1: of handcuffs. And you can't get those things off unless

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Speaker 1: you actually cut them, and so there's a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of tension, and right you are about the pain that

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Speaker 1: would be involved. One of the things that we really

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Speaker 1: look at when it comes to ligatures, and just imagine

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Speaker 1: this just for a second. The less surface space that

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Speaker 1: has on it, whether it's a rope or a belt

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Speaker 1: or in this case is zip time, the more narrow

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Speaker 1: it is, the deeper the furrow. Okay, so the furrow

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Speaker 1: is actually that crease that is created by this particular item,

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Speaker 1: and it goes deeper and deeper and deeper into the

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Speaker 1: tissue the tighter you make it. And that applies to

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Speaker 1: someone that might hang themselves or someone that's killed with

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Speaker 1: what we refer to as a groat, which people may

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Speaker 1: have seen in the movies, which is this item that's

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Speaker 1: essentially a literature that has two handles on it traditionally,

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Speaker 1: and you see people assassins that will use them and

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Speaker 1: they'll choke people out with these things come up behind

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Speaker 1: them in a stealthy like manner and take the individual's life.

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Speaker 1: So you have those that are out there. But the

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Speaker 1: more narrow these things are, the deeper the furrow. And

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Speaker 1: so we begin to kind of appreciate this at autopsy

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Speaker 1: when we're examining these these bodies that have literatures, and

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Speaker 1: most of the time when we have someone that is

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Speaker 1: in fact deceased at the scene, we don't rush to

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Speaker 1: cut a ligature off at the scene. We don't if

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Speaker 1: we have confirmed that the individual is deceased there, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna leave it in place, because that tells us a

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Speaker 1: lot at the morgue about the dynamic of the event,

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Speaker 1: the placement of the item. Has it been moved or

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Speaker 1: removed and then placed over an area, And we can

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Speaker 1: actually appreciate that as a result of some of the

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Speaker 1: trauma that's left behind by these things.

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Speaker 2: Dave, and you're also I was wondering that earlier, and

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Speaker 2: I was hoping you were going to cover it because

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Speaker 2: my first thought if it was me and I found

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Speaker 2: my loved one on the floor. My first thought would

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Speaker 2: be to cut it off, would be to cut the

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Speaker 2: zip tie off the neck, just because if there's any

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Speaker 2: chance that I can save this individual, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 2: be able to do it with that zip tie around

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Speaker 2: your neck.

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Speaker 1: No, listen, that's an excellent point, I gotta say, man,

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Speaker 1: that just goes to basic human compassion, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, You've got a loved one who if she did

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Speaker 2: it to herself, then you don't want this to happen.

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Speaker 2: So you're going to do everything in your power to

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Speaker 2: say for life. First thing, zip tie is coming off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't care if I've got to go to

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Speaker 1: the kitchen and get a butter knife. If I don't

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Speaker 1: have a knife on my person, the thing's coming off,

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Speaker 1: or I'm trying to rip it off with my bare hands,

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Speaker 1: anything that I can to bring this person back to life,

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Speaker 1: to reanimate them, if you will. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that speaks volumes about this particular case. If you've got

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Speaker 1: a circumstance where this is left in place by the

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Speaker 1: person who found her, that there's no effort, there's, as

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Speaker 1: they say, no heroic measures were taken in order to

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Speaker 1: bring them back around. I mean, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: You stand over the body and just kind of shrug

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Speaker 1: your shoulders and say, oh, oh, well, well, I think

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Speaker 1: I've got a suicide. I think that she took her

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Speaker 1: own life. That does I mean that goes to the

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Speaker 1: heart of this.

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Speaker 2: I think one thing that strikes me here is that

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Speaker 2: while the forensic people take over you, it's your job

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Speaker 2: to figure out what happened and is it murder or suicide.

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Speaker 2: You've got to help figure that out forensically. But the

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Speaker 2: police are also doing their work, and I'm wondering how

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Speaker 2: much their efforts in trying to find out what led

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Speaker 2: up to it. And you talk about timeline, but when

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Speaker 2: the police are trying to figure out what was going

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Speaker 2: on in this couple's life prior to her body being found,

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Speaker 2: and if it has any impact whatsoever forensically, after you've

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Speaker 2: already done your examination, if there's any questions, does the

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Speaker 2: police investigation help you to determine what might have happened

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Speaker 2: with the body.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, it's key because let me throw

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Speaker 1: this out to you, Dave. You've got a person that

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Speaker 1: is putting forth an idea, the finder, and you have

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Speaker 1: a finder who is an intimate and as I stated earlier,

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Speaker 1: they're going to have the most knowledge of what's going

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Speaker 1: on in this person's life at that particular time. If

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Speaker 1: they're putting out the idea that this is in fact

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Speaker 1: a suicide, you're going to have to prove that from

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Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint, that's the problem. We need to be

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Speaker 1: able to prove this. And if you look at it

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Speaker 1: from a scientific perspective, So what do we have as

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00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 1: part of this equation that's going to lead us down

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Speaker 1: this path logically where we arrive at a potential manner

347
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Speaker 1: of suicide. Well, some of the things that come about

348
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Speaker 1: are prior suicide attempts. Has this individual ever attempted suicide?

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Speaker 1: Are they under the care of someone for mental health issues,

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Speaker 1: and that can be anybody from a licensed professional counselor

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Speaker 1: to a psychiatrist. Are they taking medications that might help

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Speaker 1: them reduce anxiety or depression or alleviate depression in their life.

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Speaker 1: So you're going down this checklist, right and at the

354
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Speaker 1: end of this profile that you're building as an investigator

355
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Speaker 1: relative to the victim, when you add on what this

356
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Speaker 1: individual the finder is saying, you begin to think, well,

357
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Speaker 1: is there enough evidence here that I can move forward

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Speaker 1: and safely say that this is in fact a suicide.

359
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Speaker 1: Our one supposition as death investigators, I can't say it enough,

360
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Speaker 1: is that all deaths, not some, but all deaths are

361
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Speaker 1: homicides until proven otherwise. So I have to exclude as

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Speaker 1: a death investigator all other possibilities, and if I have

363
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Speaker 1: someone that has, if I've worked suicides, and just so

364
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Speaker 1: that you understand and our listeners understand, death and medical

365
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Speaker 1: legal death investigators work far more suicides and you ever

366
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Speaker 1: do homicides. It's something that we're very good at. You

367
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Speaker 1: just don't ever hear about it because you have this

368
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 1: ratio that's, you know, sometimes two to one, three to one,

369
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Speaker 1: depended upon where you are geographically, you've got more people.

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Speaker 1: You just don't hear about it unless it's a celebrity,

371
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Speaker 1: for instance, that has taken their life. We're skilled at this,

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Speaker 1: and police are skilled at it too, because they're coming

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Speaker 1: at it from a different perspective, and certainly when they

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Speaker 1: see someone laying on the floor with a zip tie

375
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Speaker 1: around their neck, this is atypical. So you can imagine

376
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 1: we're going to take a long, hard look at this

377
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 1: to try to understand and essentially check the boxes here

378
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: to see if it fits within this construct. And also

379
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Speaker 1: just so you know, not every case of suicide involves

380
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Speaker 1: a suicide note. They don't always involve a recording. So

381
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Speaker 1: just because there's not a note there necessarily doesn't mean

382
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Speaker 1: that it's not a suicide. Some people just make that

383
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Speaker 1: decision to go ahead and do it, and in a

384
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Speaker 1: case like this, you're left with more questions than your answers, Brother, Dave,

385
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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, man, we have to wait

386
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Speaker 1: sometimes for the dead to speak to us, and they

387
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Speaker 1: do their best to reveal information in the morgue. Most

388
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Speaker 1: of the time. That's kind of where we that's where

389
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: we dance as medical legal death investigators. What can the

390
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: body tell us? And in this particular case, boy, did

391
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Speaker 1: this poor woman have a tale to tell?

392
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Speaker 2: Joe. Whenever there's a death and you have a significant

393
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: other involved, their investigation is immediately going to be multifaceted.

394
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: They're going to have to focus on the boyfriend's slash

395
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: husband as well as other possibilities. But they have to

396
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: look at that and eliminate that individual. That's just a given.

397
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Speaker 2: In this particular case, though they found Joycey Cartagena based

398
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: down zip tie around her neck. Boyfriend is right there.

399
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Speaker 2: It's two ten in the afternoon. He's seeing suicide. That

400
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: shows up in all the police paperwork, Chief of police

401
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 2: that he was leading us down this path. He was

402
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 2: directing on the scene that it was a suicide. But

403
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: they had to look at everything. It took time. Now

404
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: we're going to roll this out there and say he

405
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: has been charged. But it didn't happen right away. It

406
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: actually took some time and Joe, they had to find

407
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: out that first of all, that while Josie Kartagena and

408
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 2: Joel Boutze had lived together for a number of years

409
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: and had been a couple since probably twenty sixteen, that

410
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: there were issues. Joycey had a lot of debt. That

411
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: is something kind of an underlying financial issue. She also

412
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: supported Joel Boutze financially. He didn't actually support himself. He

413
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: depended on her financially and she was in big time debt.

414
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: We also have from her son, who, by the way,

415
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: this young man is so broken hearted. Oh my goodness,

416
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: it just it hurts your heart to hear him talk

417
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: about his mother. But he is actually studying to become

418
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: a doctor, and he was talking about how the day

419
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: of According to Joel Bouts of the boyfriend, the more

420
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: of the death they coupled Joyce Cartahana and Jel A Bounce.

421
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: I had an argument that morning about money, about finances,

422
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: and he went off to do his handyman job, and

423
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: she didn't show up. She did not log on. Nothing

424
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: happened after he left. In terms of her being alive.

425
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: We don't know when she died, but we know that

426
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: as soon as he went to work, she was not

427
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: actually doing anything that we can prove. We've got rug

428
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: burns and other signs of physical altercation on her body,

429
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: and the police are putting all this together along with

430
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: the idea that he is pushing as a suicide. So

431
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: we know now he has been charged with murder. But why, Joe,

432
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 2: would it take two months nearly to get that charge?

433
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: Why did it take so long?

434
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: They're testing every possible outcome here and trying to examine it,

435
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: and also they're waiting for information to come back from

436
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: the m's office, this assessment of the trauma that she

437
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: had sustained. Look, it's one thing I'm glad you brought

438
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: up this idea of rug burns or carpet burns. That's

439
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: an abraided area on the skin, and if you've never

440
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: suffered one or had one, they are markedly painful. So

441
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: let me just break this down to you. If an

442
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: individual impacts on a carpeted surface and they get this

443
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: abraided area on their skin, it's not something that they're

444
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 1: going to do over and over and over again. Okay,

445
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: it's like sticking your hand in fire. Once you burn

446
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: your hand, you're not going to do it again. So

447
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: the question is why in the world would you have

448
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: multiple braided areas on your body. They are opining, at

449
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: least at this point that these are related to a

450
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: carpeted surface.

451
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 2: Perhaps, so if there was only one marking like that,

452
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: it could be explained or maybe dismissed. But having more

453
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: than one, no.

454
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: That's something that you sit back and you think, Okay,

455
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: I've got that bit to deal with. And then you've

456
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: got the atypical nature of this modality of death with

457
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: the zip tie, which which just super bizarre. But you

458
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: know something that you said just a moment ago that

459
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: the police spokesman was saying, and I get the idea

460
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: that this individual has had a certain amount of training

461
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: in an area that we death investigators really have to

462
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: be careful in and that is a staged stage deaths.

463
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: You made the comment, and I love this that he

464
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: said they were being steered, and the steering is taking

465
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: place initially by this boyfriend. So he's steering and directing.

466
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: You want an explanation, and rightly so from the finder.

467
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: You want this individual to give you information relative to

468
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: what they know about the person. But when they continue

469
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: constantly to interject themselves into the conversation or into the

470
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: investigator's kind of purpose here in order to assess what's

471
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: going on, you get kind of an odd feeling about them.

472
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: Why do you keep suggesting this? Why is it that

473
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: it couldn't be something other than this? And all of

474
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: the data points along the way. You're collecting these as

475
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: you go along, and you're doing this assessment of what

476
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: this person knows about this intimate that they're involved with.

477
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: You look at the injuries that are there, the atypical

478
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: nature of this thing around her neck, this zip tie

479
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: which you may have never seen before as a modality

480
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: of suicide. Let me tell you one of the phone

481
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: calls that they made after they left the scene, they

482
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: called her doctor. I can almost guarantee it, they would

483
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: have called her treating physician. They would have assessed that

484
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: information at the scene. You're saying that suicide. Okay, Now,

485
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: if she doesn't have a psychiatrist, we're going to call

486
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: or a counselor we're immediately going to call her treating physician.

487
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: Are you currently treating her for depression? Because an attending physician,

488
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: even if it's an internal medicine doc, can sit there

489
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: and say, well, I'll give you this for depression, or

490
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: i'll give you this for anxiety, and again your check

491
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: in a box. If you call that person, they say, no,

492
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: she's got this kind of bright affect. She's never talked about.

493
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: One of the things they say is she doesn't have

494
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: any suicidal ideation with vocalization. None of that stuff is

495
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: going on. She doesn't have a history of suicide, and

496
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: so that's one of the things that you're kind of

497
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: checking off, and it doesn't It just doesn't add up, Dave.

498
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: When you get to the part of a ziptie being

499
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: around her neck, do you immediately go with, well, that's

500
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: obviously how she was choked, or is it possible maybe

501
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: that she was choked in a different way, hands around

502
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: the neck and the zip tie was then put on

503
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: it because they said it's a large zipti that the

504
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: zip tie was then added on actor she had already passed,

505
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: and that was to cover up fingerprint marks.

506
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the dynamics of a ligature strangulation as

507
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: opposed to say, a manual strangulation. When I say manual,

508
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: what I mean is like manual labor. That means to

509
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: work with your hands. You're going to place your hands,

510
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: if you were the perpetrator, around the neck of someone,

511
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: or get them in a choke hold where they're in

512
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: the crook of your arm and you're going to choke

513
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: down on them. You're going to apply pressure, external pressure

514
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: that is going to impact the internal structures of the neck.

515
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: Now that can be the trichia, you know, the airway,

516
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: or it can be the vessels that are supplying the

517
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: brain with oxygenated blood. So that's going to leave a

518
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: significant marker for you at autopsy. So when the autopsy

519
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: is conducted, first off, you're going to photograph this area

520
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: very very carefully, and if the zip tie is still

521
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: in place, which it sounds like it probably was, you'll

522
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: take images of the zip tie. What we refer to

523
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: as insight to which means in place, then away from

524
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: probably one hundred and eighty degrees around the circumference of

525
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: the tie itself, the mid range, away from where the

526
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: thing is actually tied off, where it kind of pull

527
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: it tight. You're going to clip it right there. You'll

528
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: set it aside. You'll take a photograph of the actual

529
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: ligature or the zip tie itself, and you'll take a

530
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: photograph of this furrow that's left behind. Now one of

531
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 1: the things that you see, and this is kind of

532
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: interesting that you'll see with ligature as many times you

533
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: see it in hanging, these sorts of things. You'll see

534
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: these things refer to as Tardou spots, which are they're

535
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: like petiki and they're all over. They'll just kind of

536
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: blast all around that area, particularly if you've got this

537
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: kind of focal area that has been tied down very

538
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: very tightly, like you see with the news, so it

539
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: looks like petiki, but there'll be like a little storm

540
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: of them, and you'll get them kind of all over

541
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: the surface of the skin. You can appreciate and you

542
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: would take note of that they don't appear every single time,

543
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: but it's something you would look for externally before you

544
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: open the body. If you've got a ligature that is

545
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: this tight, and buddy, it would be tight man, and

546
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: you don't have any signs of hemorrhage in that area

547
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: that that ligature or zip tie in this case was

548
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: in place. Over you got a problem and it's going

549
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: to be revealed once you do what's called the neck reflection.

550
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: So we go into these cases where we actually reflect

551
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: back the tissue of the neck, the external tissue, so

552
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: the skin. You get down into the layer of the

553
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: muscle around the neck and you begin to examine those areas.

554
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: You look for something that they're the structures within the

555
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: neck called the strap muscles. And there are these muscles

556
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: that kind of intertwine with one another that on our

557
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: own either side of the trachea that kind of cross

558
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: over the trachea in this area, and this is the

559
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: way there were engineered. And you look for soft tissue

560
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the muscles, in the overlying tissue, the SubQ fat,

561
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: all those areas you look for hemorrhage in there. If

562
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: you have got a ligature that is as tight, you're

563
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: going to have a very focalized area. You can even

564
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Internally, you'll see like this line that goes

565
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: across if you're absent that. But yet you have this

566
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: kind of broad, expansive morrhage that is not quite as deep,

567
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: but it is there that there is a high probability

568
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: that if you have associated hemorrhage that may perhaps be

569
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: brought about as someone having the life choked out of them.

570
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: You look at the ligature that you have and you

571
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: don't see any kind of associated demarcation with the ligature itself.

572
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: You know that this is something other than as advertised,

573
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: that perhaps they were choked out or manually strangled, and

574
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: then the zip tide was put on as just an

575
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: afterthought to kind of put this forward. She took her

576
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: own life, She had access to a zip tide and

577
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: she put her around her neck and she tightened the

578
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: thing down. Can you imagine? And so science is going

579
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: to trump every single time, it's going to trump whatever

580
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: you might be speaking. You're trying to speak this into existence, right.

581
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: You got this guy from the very beginning. He's already

582
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: in there saying this is what it is. Again, I

583
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: am still stuck with Joe, this person that you have

584
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: had an intimate relationship with for years is dead on

585
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: your floor, and you didn't try to do anything to

586
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: help except tell the police I have a suicide. It

587
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: just boggles the mind. But I'm wondering, Joe. You know,

588
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: when you put a zip tie and you pull it,

589
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: certain areas of the zip tie would have pressure on

590
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: them first, you know, as you're pulling back on it.

591
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: Would you be able to trace that in post perhaps?

592
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: I think that probably the most pressure is going to

593
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: be exerted, probably away from where it's actuated from where

594
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: you slip the tip of this thing in and then

595
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: pull it tight. So you're going to have initial pressure

596
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: that's applied again one hundred and eighty degrees away from

597
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: wherever that connective point is, and then latterly which would

598
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: be at the ninety degree marks on either side as

599
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: you're tightening it down. And then finally you'll have that

600
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: one place where you make that one final pull as

601
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: you tighten it down right there, and sometimes the skin

602
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: can get wrapped up in there, it'll pinch. We've seen

603
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: this happen with people that have had their hands zip tied.

604
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: You'll get these little pinched areas that'll have focal areas

605
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: of hemorrhis that are associated with that, and so there

606
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: are a number of things that you're going to look

607
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: for on their person and here's something else. And this

608
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: particularly happens with female victims, even if they're fully clothed

609
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: in a case like this that has this kind of violence. Nowadays,

610
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: what will happen in the morgue even if she's fully clothed, Dave,

611
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: They're going to do a rape kit. There's a high

612
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: probability because you know, lots of times people can be

613
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: raped and they'll be redressed. For instance, I'm not saying

614
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: that that happened in this case, but I'm saying that,

615
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: just to be safe, this would have happened, they would

616
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: have also have done and this is kind of fascinating,

617
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: they would have also done examinations of her hands. You know,

618
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: we talked about the ubraided areas that she would have

619
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: relative to these friction abrasions that come about as a

620
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: result of contacting carpet. But we would look at the

621
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: nails and do the nail trimmings and the nail scrapings.

622
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: Nail scrapings and trimmings is the way it acts. Happens

623
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: to see if there is anything caught beneath those nails.

624
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: It seemed as though, I don't know what you think

625
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: about this day, but it seems as though the narrative

626
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: that we're being given, she fought back or resisted in

627
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: some way. And many times if an individual can, they're

628
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: going to try to particularly if someone is putting pressure

629
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: on their neck and the individual is using their hands.

630
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: You would look at a suspect if you can get

631
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: them early enough, you would look at the wrist right

632
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: to see if there's nail marks, and they're going to

633
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: look like little half moons where the nails kind of

634
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: penetrate into the skin of the perpetrator, and also scratch

635
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: marks on the face because you're trying to do the

636
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: victim is trying to do anything that can to get away.

637
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: And in this particular case, we haven't heard no you

638
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: know what, Joe, we have. They did say that they

639
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: could tell a struggle had taken place. You've got the

640
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: other marks with the rugburns and things like that. They

641
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: alluded to other things that they witnessed on at the

642
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: crime scene. You mentioned a rape kit even though she's

643
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: fully clothed, And that's the other part of this. To

644
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: believe his story is to just be wacko and looking

645
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: at it from every other way possible. Joe, if not him,

646
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: somebody just came in there after he left for work

647
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: and killed her for no reason and went on about

648
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: their mary away without taking anything.

649
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, And the police or the DA at

650
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: least have enough that they felt secure enough in charging Boosa.

651
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: They did, in fact charge him with homicide.

652
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: First degree premeditated murder.

653
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they premeditated, which is a boy that's a

654
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: certain element there, particularly in Florida. You have this knowledge

655
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: in advance that you're planning to do this, and so

656
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: premeditation is certainly something that's very chilling. This is not

657
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: a reactive event in the opinion of the police. He

658
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 1: has been charged, he hasn't been convicted, He hasn't even

659
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: been tried. But from what I understand, the judge didn't

660
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: feel secure enough apparently, or the magistrate didn't feel secure

661
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: enough to offer bond for him. He's being held without bond, Dave.

662
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: So that gives you an idea as to where prosecutor's

663
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: mind is, and certainly the police's minds are. I think

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00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: that it's very important though, that we understand that even

665
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: though he's saying that this is a suicide, and the

666
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: police believe that it is a homicide. It's important to know, Dave,

667
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 1: that we have people out all across this country and

668
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: within the sound of our voices that are struggling with

669
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: things right now. And if you are someone you love

670
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: and you care about is struggling with thoughts of self harm,

671
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: please know that there is help. You can simply dial

672
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: nine eight eight for suicide and Crisis Lifeline. I'm Joseph

673
00:37:42,719 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks as