WEBVTT - A New Chilean Constitution Could Mean Big Changes to Copper and Lithium Mining 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.280 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Locks podcast. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.560 I'm Joe Wisn't and I'm Tracy Hallaway. Tracy, one of 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.040 the themes that comes up on a lot of episodes 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:25.360 is that you know, there's going to be a lot 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.840 of demand for various metals and various minerals in the 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.800 so called energy transition in order to electrify the economy, 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.520 but that that process itself is fraught with its own 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.559 environmental consequences and risk. Right, so this is the ultimate 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.080 irony of um, I guess the green revolution. In order 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.960 to save the world and bring down emissions, we have 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.000 to move to new types of energy electrification, a lot 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.760 of which requires certain types of minerals and metals, and 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.360 getting those is actually environmentally destructive in many ways. Right. So, 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.520 we recently had a conversation, for example, with Nick Snowden 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.800 of Goldman Sex and of course over the long term 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:14.120 he's extremely bullish on copper, for example, but as he noted, 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:16.640 you know, one of the reasons for his like super 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.240 bullish copper call is that they're just as not as 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.240 much mining activity. And he pointed out, you know, around 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:27.200 the world, it's not just in rich countries around the world. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:31.080 There's been much more concerned being raised about the environmental 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.880 consequences of mining, the water consumption that happens in copper 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.560 mining specifically, and he noted that Chile, which many people 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.600 know is one of the biggest sources of copper in 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.880 the world, it's become a much more difficult place to 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.840 get a new mind built. Right, so, even if there 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.320 is theoretically enough copper in the ground to satisfy the 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.880 world's demands for electrification, it's becoming harder and more challenging 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.080 to get it out because there are these additional environmental concerns, 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.520 and in Chile in particular, they're even writing some of 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:09.240 these environmental concerns into their new constitution, which is very 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:14.480 different to the types of constitutional writing that we've seen historically. Yeah, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:17.600 and so copper, of course, lithium is another big one 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.920 for batteries because of copper the transmission and then you 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.000 have you know, this boom and batteries. But again, lots 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.800 of similar environmental issues raised. And so rather than just 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.520 you know, talking about, yes, they're all these environmental issues 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.160 that get that have to be addressed, we should probably 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.760 talk more about what they are, what the opposition is 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:42.160 what are the concerns, why our politics changing, and how 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.519 do we resolve or think about resolving some of these tensions. Absolutely, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:48.720 and I'm also very interested in this from an E 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.639 s G perspective because one of the fundamental questions over 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.000 E s G has always been should you let the 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.120 market decide this or should the government actually be making 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.359 these restrictions? And Chile is really an interesting case example 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.800 of all of this. Well, I'm very We really have 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.240 I think the perfect guest for this episode. We're going 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.560 to be speaking with Dr Christina Dorador. She is a 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:16.640 microbiologist from Chile and she is a former member of 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.400 the Constitutional Assembly of Chile. Just recently, just a few 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.280 days ago. We're recording this July eight, but only four. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.120 This new proposed constitution that it codifies and shrines some 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.920 of these environmental protections was put forward. It's going to 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.480 be voted on later in the year. But she was 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:38.440 involved in drafting, uh this new proposed constitution and for 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.760 the first time which really gets at some of these 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:45.120 tensions and puts it of of mining and protecting the 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:49.920 environment right into the constitution itself. So Dr Dorador, thank 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.960 you so much for coming on odd lots. Thanks to 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.880 you for their invitation. So why don't you just give 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.920 us a little bit of your background in bio. I'm 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.240 mentioned that you're microbiologists, mentioned that you've been part of 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.760 this new constitutional Assembly in Chile. But what where does 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.160 your interest in this space and work in the space 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.320 come from. I did my my undergrad in biology. Then 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.279 I did my based in Germany where I focused the 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.279 study of micro organisms in extreme environments. So then I 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.000 come back to Chile to analyze the micro organisms that 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.360 living in the desert that a Kama desert and also 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.839 in other places such as Salatis. There are very special 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.880 ecosystem of a Politic lakes that now are the source 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.440 for lithium. So I'm working in this subjects more than 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.039 I don't know twenty years ago. So um, we have 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.440 a lot of experience about ecology and also the micro 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.039 organisms that live in there. So you mentioned the unique 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.279 ecosystem of Chile. Could you maybe give us a little 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.400 bit more color on that, Like, what exactly is it 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.880 about the geography of Chile that makes it so important 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:10.320 to things like copper and lithia mining. Sure, well, Chile 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.480 is it's a land of extremes. You know, in the 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.039 north of Chile we have the driest desert in the 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:20.160 world'ma desert in the south is Patagonia and but specifically 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.560 not a Cama desert. Um there are a high concentration 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.839 of minerals and also high diversity, so it's possible to 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.640 find almost the whole predict table here. And and also 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.039 it's in large reserves and in the special case of 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.000 the of the water because it's a rist of course 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:43.799 water is under the ground and and also the fresh 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.080 water is coming from from raining during during the summer 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.760 um and it's located in these special lakes that are 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.320 called salades that already mentioned, and a couple of rivers. 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.560 So the water is very scarce. And and actually for 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.960 all the mining, the big mining that produced Chile is 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:08.520 using discarce water from the desert. So yes, So there's 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.960 something that came up on a recent episode, and we 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.800 were talking to the chief metal strategist at Goldman Sax 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.680 and he mentioned, you know, he said, you know, the 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:25.040 copper mining is generally improved, it's sort of environmental sustainability, 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.919 but for one thing, there is a huge water need 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.400 in copper mining. Can you talk a little bit about 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.920 from your perspective, what you see. You know, start with copper, right, 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.039 we'll also talk a lot about lithium since I know 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:38.400 you do a lot of work on that. But what 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.799 do you see as sort of like the environmental costs 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:46.360 or the price that Chile or people in Chile pay 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:51.360 for have being such a big source of copper mining. Yeah, well, 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.479 the copper mining exploitation is happening here since I don't 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.920 know about a hundred years, and so it's a long story. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.680 And in all this time, the water using for these 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.320 processes have been have enough Chinese locally, so that means 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.320 from underground water and also the lower river that is 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.360 the only river that we have here in the attack 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.680 Anti Fagasta region and the large copper mining in the 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:21.200 last from from the nineties UH started big private minings 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.080 and working they have been used water from salaries. So 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:30.120 there are many cases than this big mining have drying 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.760 out the whole ecosystem, producing the whole water extracting the 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.400 water for more than twenty twenty five years day and night. 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.800 So that's is a massive environmental damage. And also it's 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:48.040 not only the damage is environmentally also social because they 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.280 have practices that people were not used to, you know, 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.480 to deal with, and so it's very complex. But now 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.760 copper mining is start to to use the slainest water 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.920 for the sea also either direxy water or through the 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.640 salidinization plants. But also of course everything half a fun effect. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.480 So and then the main problem I think here is 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.800 the it's the magnitude, because the magnitude of processing this 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:22.600 copper it's immense. This is so big that people can 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.440 see these holes from the from the space, you know, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.360 So that means also an equivalent amount of water that 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.680 have to be used. So my understanding is that a 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.160 lot of water is also used in lithium mining. Could 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.959 you maybe describe that process as well, and also tell 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.640 us what your own research says about quantifying the economic 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:48.600 damage from these types of processes. Yeah. Um. In the 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.480 case of lithium um, lithium is um concentrate here in 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.160 this um evaporitic basins called salades. They were in the 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.880 past large pale lakes through the I'm have been drawing 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:05.120 out and the industry what they do is to pump 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:09.840 out the brines that are actually water full of salts 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.600 concentrated in salts and between the sols are slipium there 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.840 and they evaporate the water. So this is a water mining, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.880 so it's not a mining from rocks, it's from the water. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.760 So they have to be free of the water, so 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.120 evaporate the water and then concentrate in a very arid 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:33.559 place produced major effects. So we have studied through using 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:40.520 satellital images and also other parameters. The sladata comma where 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.679 is the main extraction by now? Right now? Has been 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:48.240 affected in different ways. For example, is less water in general, 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.440 but also the population of flamingos have been migrated from here, 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.839 this is less In the the last ten years, population 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.800 of endemic flamingo have been decreases in a twelve person 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:19.959 your scientific background is microbiology. Can you talk a little 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:24.840 bit further about the microbiology of the region. And I 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.160 mean this is going to sound crass, but I don't 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.440 mean it at all in a in a crash way. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.320 But I guess the question is how why should people 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.840 care more about this and what are you know in theory? 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.319 I get why people worry about the loss of wildlife, 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.319 the loss of biological diversity and so forth, but how 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.000 do you especially like even in the drafting of the Constitution. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.480 How do you express the risks involved from damaging some 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:59.760 of these ecosystems. This is very complicated because um first, 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:05.000 all this eco system I'm talking about Atakama desert and saladdes, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.920 for a long time have been thinking that they were 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.360 they were not life there because it's if you see 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.640 pictures from the takamma is is nothing you cannot see 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.120 in some part any plant. So but the life is 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.320 just there is microbial. So if we take any example 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:26.080 from from the dry soil of salt or whatever, we 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.320 can't found bacteria and micro organizes and leave there and 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.800 they are very important part of the traffic web. So 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:36.520 flamingos for example that they are in this sama in 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.800 oders they eat sediments and these sediments are full of 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.160 bacteria and and that also been used as an energy 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:47.400 as energy source of energy and and pigments and whatever. 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.440 They are important for the source for the life. So 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.880 everything is related. So and that's why they're very fragile 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:01.199 because when the system changed at microbial level, also affect 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:07.000 that major levels, so the impacts are even bigger. So 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.120 as as been very complicated to explain this because it's 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.000 different when there is a there is another sensibility when 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.640 when when I'm environmentalist, for example, they claim to protect 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:22.480 a native forests or Patagonia. You know, it's visible life 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.600 there and also the landscape are amazing, so people really 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.880 feel touchy about that. When you talk about priests protect 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.760 the desert, it's like what the desert is there to 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.559 be exploded more than a hundred years ago. I have 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.480 been there the source of resources for Chili always, so 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.480 nobody really talked about protection of the desert is something 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:49.400 even sometimes uncomfortable because you know environmental is it's not 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.880 seen something important for a long time about mining. So 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.360 we have to put that information also on the table 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:00.800 for discussion in the in the assembly, and and we 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:05.240 we reached I think very important opjetics. First, we declare 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.640 that the nature has rights and this is a major 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:15.439 advance because change or ethics regarding ecology. So we recognize 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.320 ourselves as a human as part of our ecosystem, and 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.680 that also means that we need as a human of course, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.319 we have the responsibility to take care about the nature 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.480 regarding certain relations of course. So yeah, this is what's 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.960 very interesting challenge. How do people in Chill feel about 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:40.160 the mining industry and I realized that it's difficult to generalize, 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.439 and probably your opinion will be informed by how close 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.800 you are to any mining operations. But my understanding is 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.400 that it brings a lot of money into the country, 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:55.160 but that money is not necessarily well distributed among the population, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.960 and that economic inequality is one of the reasons why 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.600 the country embark on this new constitution process in the 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.520 first place. There were big protests in twenty nineteen. So 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:10.840 how do people feel, you know, broadly about the industry. Well, 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:16.640 in general, there is the feeling that the system, the 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.520 economical system that Chilen have mostly based on the abstraction 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:26.120 of raw materials, even minerals or forests or someone whatever. 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.520 It's not really helping people because of the political system 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.640 that we have a legacy from the Constitution of nineteen eighties. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.960 So that's why I was important to change this constitution 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:42.240 first to warrantee social rights. So now we advanced from 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:47.320 a subsidiary state one based on democracy and social rights 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.360 and regarding mining. So I'm coming from a this is 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.560 the biggest region of mining, I was saying, Chilen and 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.840 probably in the world for Coppa, and my family is 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.920 from here, so we have a long history in this 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.840 territory and the feeling of the people is that, of 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.160 course it's important mining. They give a lot of job, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.760 but I haven't really improved life here. So for example, 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:20.200 we're still doesn't have a good railways or or good 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:27.240 um transportation system whatever, those the basic things for for 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.080 living in a place. All the money goes to Santiago 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.120 and especially to three well psychomonas, the most rich ones, 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.600 and from there they distribute the money back to the territory. 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.800 So that's very unfair. That's why one or the most 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.200 important advances is the new proposal of constitution is that 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.520 the state create a news a new political and regional system. 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.560 It's called statarynal o regional states when every reason is 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.320 half autonomy. And that's very important because we will take 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.560 around decision and also we will have our own money 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:04.840 we don't have we we don't have to depend anymore 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.480 of the decision of Santiago. So that's is a major advance. 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.880 And probably also that we have consequences that uh, you know, 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.000 an environmental or other levels. So you mentioned enshrining the 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.120 rights of nature in the Constitution, and again this is 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.280 the first time that this has really been done done 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:27.040 to my knowledge on a constitutional basis. But how far 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.880 does the draft that was released this week actually go. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.640 Is it a complete ban on mining or something less 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.000 than that? Nothing changed? Really we have in in and 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.400 in a short place in the short term. Sorry, uh. 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.720 The important thing is that for example, for water chill 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:53.080 what they have been privatized. So now we we demand 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:58.800 in the constitution that all these propriety rights are compared 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:05.880 into authorization so people before people can freely obtain these 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:11.160 property rights and having for forever, you know, for perpeture. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:16.560 So now will be focused on on on the humans 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.240 and people instead of the different other uses. Because we also, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.800 um right and this proposed the human right for water 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.960 that was not guarantee until it are people that don't 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.720 have access to water at all, but next to them 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:36.040 popular population, our companies using the water, you know, and 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.159 and and and understate and focus on people. So this 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.680 kind of inequalities we have already. So that's why it's 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.120 important to advance in in this recognizement of the nature rights. 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:52.560 So um it's not only just that, also there is 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.480 a whole very robust body of articles that will help 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.919 to put that in in you know, in movement all 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:07.040 this right, especially the creation of the the we all 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:11.720 the fensory of the environment, so people could they are 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:16.400 present their demands or the requirements about nights of protection. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.960 And of course the environmental standards either for minding of 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:25.000 other activities will increase. But that is how I have 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.360 to I wanted to say that as it's not something bad, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.600 it's also necessary we as our country will be one 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.080 of the most affective country by climate change, so we 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.119 need to also take care about our future. I know 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.600 it's a pub station of corperal lithum is very important 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.919 now for v cars and everything, but also we need 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.240 to take care about our own land, you know, and 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:51.879 and some and that this is the portunity that we have, 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.440 you know, to to write our own constitutions say that 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.640 we want for the future of for people. I want 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.800 to ask more about what the constitution actually does and 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.520 how you see it working. But before we do, you 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.920 mentioned the water system in Chile, and my understanding is 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.200 that it's the only country in the world with a 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.320 fully privatized water market. Can you explain how how that 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:20.960 came to be? Mhm, Well, that was a whole ideological 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.840 plan m preparing during the dictatorship of pinut Chet. So 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:32.200 the constitutional anten eighties was written in a way that 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.399 to think about the state is to have less power. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:43.640 And also very important elements like the water and other 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.240 were privatized because in their ideology they think that this 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.800 is the best way to to manage a country. But 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.280 now after more than forty years, we know that this 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.000 is not the way for us. That's why there was 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:03.000 this m This is all the studies of social or 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:09.199 no in in twenty nineteen and and it's not really working. 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:14.680 You know, all the systems produce a large inequality in 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.600 the country that it is immense and not not only 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.359 regarding to money or access to buy things of consumer 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:29.840 it's also cultural gender base, uh depends where you leave everything. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:35.520 So it's impossible to maintain a social equilibrium or social 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.440 peace like that. That's why it's so important to change 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:43.720 the constitution. And with this in mind. Um for example, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.879 that the water code was created in nineteen eighty one 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.120 and in nineteen ninety two, already the big miners. Miners 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.720 were already obtaining the water right that what explodes in 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.560 the nineties, so there was a whole preparation for to 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:04.720 to produce a large amounts of copper in after the dictatorship. 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:09.840 So my, uh, the last time we talked about this, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.240 our guests said that already Chile has become a much 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.160 harder place to launch a new copper mind so, even 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:21.600 even setting aside the new constitution and whether it passes 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:27.880 in a national referendum, that in two it's significantly more 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.280 difficult to get started on a new mining project than 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.880 it was twenty years ago in the early two thousand's 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.159 when we had the last sort of commodity supercycle and 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.880 those tons of demand from China for copper and other minerals, 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.360 and it sent prices soaring. Can you talk a little 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.320 bit about what's happened and what's changed over the last 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:52.480 several years, uh, such that politics has changed, mining permitting 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:57.000 has changed, and just I guess general awareness of environmental 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.840 consequences has become more has become more top of mind. 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:09.440 I'm not really agree with that, because we, uh, we 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:15.360 just try to be fair, you know, one way all 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.920 the in the economical point of view usually is not 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.920 include the environmental damage. We don't know for example, amount 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.280 of money I have been maybe paid by the state 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:32.240 to solve problems related to big mining because as not insists, 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.680 it's not in the equation. Also, it's not the in 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:38.840 the equation the social cause. For example, the work that 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:43.320 is not paid world by woman because women have all 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:47.920 the task of care that thanks to that, men's especially 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.800 can work in the minds does not including this equation. 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:56.240 So probably we're not really seeing the whole pictures. That's 0:22:56.280 --> 0:23:01.600 why we just demand more control. You know, that people 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.520 can also be part of the decision because also the 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:09.280 constitution include that methods of the direct democracy and more 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.439 participation in the decision that we that we affect their 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.600 own lives. It's more democracy, and that's is that's is 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.480 a very good news for the world because um also 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:22.479 for the mind and that they will have if they 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.280 do well. Stuff. Now regarding all these new you know, 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.359 if it's a proof of course um new demands, they 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:35.120 will have a higher consideration and local level because also 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:40.080 for some people they are bad neighbors, you know, so 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:42.879 it's as important to think about this front of you. 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:45.960 So would you say that as of right now, like 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.720 the current status quo, that there just hasn't been much 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:57.440 change in that, you know, the extractive industries when we're talking, uh, copper, lithium, 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.520 other minerals. That company is one of mine. The status 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:05.119 quo right now is still pretty liberal in terms of 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:09.520 what companies are able to do. Yeah, that's pretty liberal. Yeah, 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:13.240 that will of course the emvironmental relations, but they're not 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:15.760 as strong as it should be. I think, for example, 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.639 just a very short example here in Ada, Comma is 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.680 a case of a gold mine that was actually everywhere 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:27.040 in the world. Then what was the National Geographic magazine? 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.200 Where to start to to dig the mining? They need 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:35.000 to move a whole colony of tintilla that is an 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:41.680 animal in are very cute, Yes, exactly as well. And 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.480 they proposed a plan to move the cynteria from that 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:49.240 this um mountain and to move to another one, and 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.399 of course in the transportation then die and that's not 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:56.359 good mining. It's complicated, but I think we need to 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:59.880 face these problems in a in a in a wider way. 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.359 We need to talk about it. Not just everything have 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.240 to be you know, surrounded by market. We need to 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.400 also think about the future. We cannot do the same 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:12.640 thing forever because we have limits. The planet has limits. 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.520 And if we put inside the climate change, if you're 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:19.240 worsd so That's why it's so important to include different 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.679 ways and include diversity, people that think differently. It lista 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:27.520 and the big dialogues, or there was nothing would happen. 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:29.320 I will be worst at the end of the Dame. 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:33.200 So on the topic of paradoxes and looking at the 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.399 planet as a whole. And I want to make it 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:38.359 really clear that this is a devil's advocate question before 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.399 I ask it. But what do you say to people 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:43.919 who will look at the situation in Chile and they 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.600 will say, well, we need that copper and we need 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:51.159 that lithium so that we can shift to cleaner and 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:56.600 greener technologies on a global basis, we need electric cars, 0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:59.639 We need more electricity in general in order to reduce 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:02.480 a miss and save the entire planet. And what if 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:06.359 it is necessary to sacrifice a desert in Chile in 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.560 order to save the planet. More broadly, what would you 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.920 say to those people, I think we need more elements 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:17.840 in the conversation. First, if it's I think we all 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:21.040 were agreed, then we need to decrease emission is some 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:30.840 saying crucial. But the country that produced more um carbon dioxide, 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:35.280 they're really doing their best, you know, they're really decreasing 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:39.120 the amount of carbon that they produce. Because we Chile, 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.600 we are very small country compared to others, we don't 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:45.399 we don't produce much carbon. We produce very little in 0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:49.040 compared to the big no China or the US, and 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:52.600 but we have the corbon on the left field. So 0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:57.080 and also the question is, of course we we it's 0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:00.639 important to make this just transitions for electricity did, but 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:07.760 really will change the or destiny of global warming. That's 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:10.040