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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Locks podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisn't and I'm Tracy Hallaway. Tracy, one of

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Speaker 1: the themes that comes up on a lot of episodes

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Speaker 1: is that you know, there's going to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of demand for various metals and various minerals in the

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Speaker 1: so called energy transition in order to electrify the economy,

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Speaker 1: but that that process itself is fraught with its own

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Speaker 1: environmental consequences and risk. Right, so this is the ultimate

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Speaker 1: irony of um, I guess the green revolution. In order

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Speaker 1: to save the world and bring down emissions, we have

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Speaker 1: to move to new types of energy electrification, a lot

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Speaker 1: of which requires certain types of minerals and metals, and

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Speaker 1: getting those is actually environmentally destructive in many ways. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: we recently had a conversation, for example, with Nick Snowden

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Speaker 1: of Goldman Sex and of course over the long term

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Speaker 1: he's extremely bullish on copper, for example, but as he noted,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the reasons for his like super

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Speaker 1: bullish copper call is that they're just as not as

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Speaker 1: much mining activity. And he pointed out, you know, around

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Speaker 1: the world, it's not just in rich countries around the world.

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Speaker 1: There's been much more concerned being raised about the environmental

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Speaker 1: consequences of mining, the water consumption that happens in copper

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Speaker 1: mining specifically, and he noted that Chile, which many people

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Speaker 1: know is one of the biggest sources of copper in

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Speaker 1: the world, it's become a much more difficult place to

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Speaker 1: get a new mind built. Right, so, even if there

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Speaker 1: is theoretically enough copper in the ground to satisfy the

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Speaker 1: world's demands for electrification, it's becoming harder and more challenging

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Speaker 1: to get it out because there are these additional environmental concerns,

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Speaker 1: and in Chile in particular, they're even writing some of

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Speaker 1: these environmental concerns into their new constitution, which is very

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Speaker 1: different to the types of constitutional writing that we've seen historically. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so copper, of course, lithium is another big one

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Speaker 1: for batteries because of copper the transmission and then you

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Speaker 1: have you know, this boom and batteries. But again, lots

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Speaker 1: of similar environmental issues raised. And so rather than just

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about, yes, they're all these environmental issues

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Speaker 1: that get that have to be addressed, we should probably

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Speaker 1: talk more about what they are, what the opposition is

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Speaker 1: what are the concerns, why our politics changing, and how

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Speaker 1: do we resolve or think about resolving some of these tensions. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and I'm also very interested in this from an E

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Speaker 1: s G perspective because one of the fundamental questions over

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Speaker 1: E s G has always been should you let the

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Speaker 1: market decide this or should the government actually be making

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Speaker 1: these restrictions? And Chile is really an interesting case example

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Speaker 1: of all of this. Well, I'm very We really have

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Speaker 1: I think the perfect guest for this episode. We're going

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Speaker 1: to be speaking with Dr Christina Dorador. She is a

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Speaker 1: microbiologist from Chile and she is a former member of

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Speaker 1: the Constitutional Assembly of Chile. Just recently, just a few

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Speaker 1: days ago. We're recording this July eight, but only four.

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Speaker 1: This new proposed constitution that it codifies and shrines some

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Speaker 1: of these environmental protections was put forward. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be voted on later in the year. But she was

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Speaker 1: involved in drafting, uh this new proposed constitution and for

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Speaker 1: the first time which really gets at some of these

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Speaker 1: tensions and puts it of of mining and protecting the

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Speaker 1: environment right into the constitution itself. So Dr Dorador, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for coming on odd lots. Thanks to

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Speaker 1: you for their invitation. So why don't you just give

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Speaker 1: us a little bit of your background in bio. I'm

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Speaker 1: mentioned that you're microbiologists, mentioned that you've been part of

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Speaker 1: this new constitutional Assembly in Chile. But what where does

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Speaker 1: your interest in this space and work in the space

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Speaker 1: come from. I did my my undergrad in biology. Then

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Speaker 1: I did my based in Germany where I focused the

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Speaker 1: study of micro organisms in extreme environments. So then I

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Speaker 1: come back to Chile to analyze the micro organisms that

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Speaker 1: living in the desert that a Kama desert and also

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Speaker 1: in other places such as Salatis. There are very special

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Speaker 1: ecosystem of a Politic lakes that now are the source

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Speaker 1: for lithium. So I'm working in this subjects more than

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Speaker 1: I don't know twenty years ago. So um, we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience about ecology and also the micro

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Speaker 1: organisms that live in there. So you mentioned the unique

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Speaker 1: ecosystem of Chile. Could you maybe give us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more color on that, Like, what exactly is it

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Speaker 1: about the geography of Chile that makes it so important

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Speaker 1: to things like copper and lithia mining. Sure, well, Chile

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Speaker 1: is it's a land of extremes. You know, in the

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Speaker 1: north of Chile we have the driest desert in the

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Speaker 1: world'ma desert in the south is Patagonia and but specifically

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Speaker 1: not a Cama desert. Um there are a high concentration

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Speaker 1: of minerals and also high diversity, so it's possible to

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Speaker 1: find almost the whole predict table here. And and also

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Speaker 1: it's in large reserves and in the special case of

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Speaker 1: the of the water because it's a rist of course

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Speaker 1: water is under the ground and and also the fresh

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Speaker 1: water is coming from from raining during during the summer

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Speaker 1: um and it's located in these special lakes that are

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Speaker 1: called salades that already mentioned, and a couple of rivers.

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Speaker 1: So the water is very scarce. And and actually for

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Speaker 1: all the mining, the big mining that produced Chile is

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Speaker 1: using discarce water from the desert. So yes, So there's

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Speaker 1: something that came up on a recent episode, and we

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Speaker 1: were talking to the chief metal strategist at Goldman Sax

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Speaker 1: and he mentioned, you know, he said, you know, the

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Speaker 1: copper mining is generally improved, it's sort of environmental sustainability,

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Speaker 1: but for one thing, there is a huge water need

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Speaker 1: in copper mining. Can you talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: from your perspective, what you see. You know, start with copper, right,

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Speaker 1: we'll also talk a lot about lithium since I know

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Speaker 1: you do a lot of work on that. But what

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Speaker 1: do you see as sort of like the environmental costs

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Speaker 1: or the price that Chile or people in Chile pay

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Speaker 1: for have being such a big source of copper mining. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: the copper mining exploitation is happening here since I don't

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Speaker 1: know about a hundred years, and so it's a long story.

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Speaker 1: And in all this time, the water using for these

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Speaker 1: processes have been have enough Chinese locally, so that means

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Speaker 1: from underground water and also the lower river that is

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Speaker 1: the only river that we have here in the attack

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Speaker 1: Anti Fagasta region and the large copper mining in the

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Speaker 1: last from from the nineties UH started big private minings

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Speaker 1: and working they have been used water from salaries. So

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Speaker 1: there are many cases than this big mining have drying

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Speaker 1: out the whole ecosystem, producing the whole water extracting the

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Speaker 1: water for more than twenty twenty five years day and night.

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Speaker 1: So that's is a massive environmental damage. And also it's

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Speaker 1: not only the damage is environmentally also social because they

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Speaker 1: have practices that people were not used to, you know,

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Speaker 1: to deal with, and so it's very complex. But now

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Speaker 1: copper mining is start to to use the slainest water

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Speaker 1: for the sea also either direxy water or through the

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Speaker 1: salidinization plants. But also of course everything half a fun effect.

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Speaker 1: So and then the main problem I think here is

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Speaker 1: the it's the magnitude, because the magnitude of processing this

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Speaker 1: copper it's immense. This is so big that people can

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Speaker 1: see these holes from the from the space, you know,

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Speaker 1: So that means also an equivalent amount of water that

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Speaker 1: have to be used. So my understanding is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of water is also used in lithium mining. Could

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Speaker 1: you maybe describe that process as well, and also tell

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Speaker 1: us what your own research says about quantifying the economic

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Speaker 1: damage from these types of processes. Yeah. Um. In the

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Speaker 1: case of lithium um, lithium is um concentrate here in

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Speaker 1: this um evaporitic basins called salades. They were in the

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Speaker 1: past large pale lakes through the I'm have been drawing

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Speaker 1: out and the industry what they do is to pump

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Speaker 1: out the brines that are actually water full of salts

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Speaker 1: concentrated in salts and between the sols are slipium there

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Speaker 1: and they evaporate the water. So this is a water mining,

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Speaker 1: so it's not a mining from rocks, it's from the water.

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Speaker 1: So they have to be free of the water, so

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Speaker 1: evaporate the water and then concentrate in a very arid

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Speaker 1: place produced major effects. So we have studied through using

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Speaker 1: satellital images and also other parameters. The sladata comma where

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Speaker 1: is the main extraction by now? Right now? Has been

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Speaker 1: affected in different ways. For example, is less water in general,

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Speaker 1: but also the population of flamingos have been migrated from here,

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Speaker 1: this is less In the the last ten years, population

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Speaker 1: of endemic flamingo have been decreases in a twelve person

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Speaker 1: your scientific background is microbiology. Can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit further about the microbiology of the region. And I

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Speaker 1: mean this is going to sound crass, but I don't

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Speaker 1: mean it at all in a in a crash way.

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Speaker 1: But I guess the question is how why should people

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Speaker 1: care more about this and what are you know in theory?

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Speaker 1: I get why people worry about the loss of wildlife,

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Speaker 1: the loss of biological diversity and so forth, but how

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Speaker 1: do you especially like even in the drafting of the Constitution.

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Speaker 1: How do you express the risks involved from damaging some

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Speaker 1: of these ecosystems. This is very complicated because um first,

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Speaker 1: all this eco system I'm talking about Atakama desert and saladdes,

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Speaker 1: for a long time have been thinking that they were

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Speaker 1: they were not life there because it's if you see

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Speaker 1: pictures from the takamma is is nothing you cannot see

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Speaker 1: in some part any plant. So but the life is

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Speaker 1: just there is microbial. So if we take any example

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Speaker 1: from from the dry soil of salt or whatever, we

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Speaker 1: can't found bacteria and micro organizes and leave there and

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Speaker 1: they are very important part of the traffic web. So

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Speaker 1: flamingos for example that they are in this sama in

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Speaker 1: oders they eat sediments and these sediments are full of

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Speaker 1: bacteria and and that also been used as an energy

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Speaker 1: as energy source of energy and and pigments and whatever.

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Speaker 1: They are important for the source for the life. So

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Speaker 1: everything is related. So and that's why they're very fragile

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Speaker 1: because when the system changed at microbial level, also affect

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Speaker 1: that major levels, so the impacts are even bigger. So

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Speaker 1: as as been very complicated to explain this because it's

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Speaker 1: different when there is a there is another sensibility when

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Speaker 1: when when I'm environmentalist, for example, they claim to protect

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Speaker 1: a native forests or Patagonia. You know, it's visible life

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Speaker 1: there and also the landscape are amazing, so people really

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Speaker 1: feel touchy about that. When you talk about priests protect

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Speaker 1: the desert, it's like what the desert is there to

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Speaker 1: be exploded more than a hundred years ago. I have

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Speaker 1: been there the source of resources for Chili always, so

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Speaker 1: nobody really talked about protection of the desert is something

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Speaker 1: even sometimes uncomfortable because you know environmental is it's not

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Speaker 1: seen something important for a long time about mining. So

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Speaker 1: we have to put that information also on the table

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Speaker 1: for discussion in the in the assembly, and and we

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Speaker 1: we reached I think very important opjetics. First, we declare

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Speaker 1: that the nature has rights and this is a major

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Speaker 1: advance because change or ethics regarding ecology. So we recognize

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Speaker 1: ourselves as a human as part of our ecosystem, and

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Speaker 1: that also means that we need as a human of course,

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Speaker 1: we have the responsibility to take care about the nature

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Speaker 1: regarding certain relations of course. So yeah, this is what's

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Speaker 1: very interesting challenge. How do people in Chill feel about

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Speaker 1: the mining industry and I realized that it's difficult to generalize,

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Speaker 1: and probably your opinion will be informed by how close

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Speaker 1: you are to any mining operations. But my understanding is

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Speaker 1: that it brings a lot of money into the country,

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Speaker 1: but that money is not necessarily well distributed among the population,

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Speaker 1: and that economic inequality is one of the reasons why

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Speaker 1: the country embark on this new constitution process in the

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Speaker 1: first place. There were big protests in twenty nineteen. So

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Speaker 1: how do people feel, you know, broadly about the industry. Well,

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Speaker 1: in general, there is the feeling that the system, the

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Speaker 1: economical system that Chilen have mostly based on the abstraction

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Speaker 1: of raw materials, even minerals or forests or someone whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's not really helping people because of the political system

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Speaker 1: that we have a legacy from the Constitution of nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I was important to change this constitution

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Speaker 1: first to warrantee social rights. So now we advanced from

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Speaker 1: a subsidiary state one based on democracy and social rights

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Speaker 1: and regarding mining. So I'm coming from a this is

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Speaker 1: the biggest region of mining, I was saying, Chilen and

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Speaker 1: probably in the world for Coppa, and my family is

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Speaker 1: from here, so we have a long history in this

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Speaker 1: territory and the feeling of the people is that, of

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Speaker 1: course it's important mining. They give a lot of job,

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Speaker 1: but I haven't really improved life here. So for example,

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Speaker 1: we're still doesn't have a good railways or or good

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Speaker 1: um transportation system whatever, those the basic things for for

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Speaker 1: living in a place. All the money goes to Santiago

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Speaker 1: and especially to three well psychomonas, the most rich ones,

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Speaker 1: and from there they distribute the money back to the territory.

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Speaker 1: So that's very unfair. That's why one or the most

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Speaker 1: important advances is the new proposal of constitution is that

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Speaker 1: the state create a news a new political and regional system.

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Speaker 1: It's called statarynal o regional states when every reason is

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Speaker 1: half autonomy. And that's very important because we will take

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Speaker 1: around decision and also we will have our own money

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Speaker 1: we don't have we we don't have to depend anymore

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Speaker 1: of the decision of Santiago. So that's is a major advance.

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Speaker 1: And probably also that we have consequences that uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: an environmental or other levels. So you mentioned enshrining the

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Speaker 1: rights of nature in the Constitution, and again this is

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Speaker 1: the first time that this has really been done done

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Speaker 1: to my knowledge on a constitutional basis. But how far

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Speaker 1: does the draft that was released this week actually go.

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Speaker 1: Is it a complete ban on mining or something less

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Speaker 1: than that? Nothing changed? Really we have in in and

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Speaker 1: in a short place in the short term. Sorry, uh.

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Speaker 1: The important thing is that for example, for water chill

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Speaker 1: what they have been privatized. So now we we demand

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Speaker 1: in the constitution that all these propriety rights are compared

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Speaker 1: into authorization so people before people can freely obtain these

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Speaker 1: property rights and having for forever, you know, for perpeture.

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Speaker 1: So now will be focused on on on the humans

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Speaker 1: and people instead of the different other uses. Because we also,

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Speaker 1: um right and this proposed the human right for water

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Speaker 1: that was not guarantee until it are people that don't

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Speaker 1: have access to water at all, but next to them

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Speaker 1: popular population, our companies using the water, you know, and

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Speaker 1: and and and understate and focus on people. So this

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Speaker 1: kind of inequalities we have already. So that's why it's

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Speaker 1: important to advance in in this recognizement of the nature rights.

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Speaker 1: So um it's not only just that, also there is

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Speaker 1: a whole very robust body of articles that will help

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Speaker 1: to put that in in you know, in movement all

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Speaker 1: this right, especially the creation of the the we all

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Speaker 1: the fensory of the environment, so people could they are

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Speaker 1: present their demands or the requirements about nights of protection.

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Speaker 1: And of course the environmental standards either for minding of

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Speaker 1: other activities will increase. But that is how I have

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Speaker 1: to I wanted to say that as it's not something bad,

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Speaker 1: it's also necessary we as our country will be one

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Speaker 1: of the most affective country by climate change, so we

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Speaker 1: need to also take care about our future. I know

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Speaker 1: it's a pub station of corperal lithum is very important

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Speaker 1: now for v cars and everything, but also we need

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Speaker 1: to take care about our own land, you know, and

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Speaker 1: and some and that this is the portunity that we have,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to write our own constitutions say that

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Speaker 1: we want for the future of for people. I want

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Speaker 1: to ask more about what the constitution actually does and

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Speaker 1: how you see it working. But before we do, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned the water system in Chile, and my understanding is

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Speaker 1: that it's the only country in the world with a

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Speaker 1: fully privatized water market. Can you explain how how that

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Speaker 1: came to be? Mhm, Well, that was a whole ideological

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Speaker 1: plan m preparing during the dictatorship of pinut Chet. So

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Speaker 1: the constitutional anten eighties was written in a way that

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Speaker 1: to think about the state is to have less power.

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Speaker 1: And also very important elements like the water and other

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Speaker 1: were privatized because in their ideology they think that this

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Speaker 1: is the best way to to manage a country. But

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Speaker 1: now after more than forty years, we know that this

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Speaker 1: is not the way for us. That's why there was

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Speaker 1: this m This is all the studies of social or

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Speaker 1: no in in twenty nineteen and and it's not really working.

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Speaker 1: You know, all the systems produce a large inequality in

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Speaker 1: the country that it is immense and not not only

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Speaker 1: regarding to money or access to buy things of consumer

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Speaker 1: it's also cultural gender base, uh depends where you leave everything.

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Speaker 1: So it's impossible to maintain a social equilibrium or social

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Speaker 1: peace like that. That's why it's so important to change

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Speaker 1: the constitution. And with this in mind. Um for example,

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Speaker 1: that the water code was created in nineteen eighty one

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen ninety two, already the big miners. Miners

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Speaker 1: were already obtaining the water right that what explodes in

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Speaker 1: the nineties, so there was a whole preparation for to

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Speaker 1: to produce a large amounts of copper in after the dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: So my, uh, the last time we talked about this,

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Speaker 1: our guests said that already Chile has become a much

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Speaker 1: harder place to launch a new copper mind so, even

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Speaker 1: even setting aside the new constitution and whether it passes

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Speaker 1: in a national referendum, that in two it's significantly more

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Speaker 1: difficult to get started on a new mining project than

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Speaker 1: it was twenty years ago in the early two thousand's

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Speaker 1: when we had the last sort of commodity supercycle and

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Speaker 1: those tons of demand from China for copper and other minerals,

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Speaker 1: and it sent prices soaring. Can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what's happened and what's changed over the last

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Speaker 1: several years, uh, such that politics has changed, mining permitting

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Speaker 1: has changed, and just I guess general awareness of environmental

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Speaker 1: consequences has become more has become more top of mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really agree with that, because we, uh, we

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Speaker 1: just try to be fair, you know, one way all

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Speaker 1: the in the economical point of view usually is not

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Speaker 1: include the environmental damage. We don't know for example, amount

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Speaker 1: of money I have been maybe paid by the state

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Speaker 1: to solve problems related to big mining because as not insists,

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Speaker 1: it's not in the equation. Also, it's not the in

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Speaker 1: the equation the social cause. For example, the work that

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Speaker 1: is not paid world by woman because women have all

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Speaker 1: the task of care that thanks to that, men's especially

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Speaker 1: can work in the minds does not including this equation.

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Speaker 1: So probably we're not really seeing the whole pictures. That's

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Speaker 1: why we just demand more control. You know, that people

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Speaker 1: can also be part of the decision because also the

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Speaker 1: constitution include that methods of the direct democracy and more

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Speaker 1: participation in the decision that we that we affect their

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Speaker 1: own lives. It's more democracy, and that's is that's is

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Speaker 1: a very good news for the world because um also

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Speaker 1: for the mind and that they will have if they

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Speaker 1: do well. Stuff. Now regarding all these new you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's a proof of course um new demands, they

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Speaker 1: will have a higher consideration and local level because also

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Speaker 1: for some people they are bad neighbors, you know, so

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Speaker 1: it's as important to think about this front of you.

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Speaker 1: So would you say that as of right now, like

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Speaker 1: the current status quo, that there just hasn't been much

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Speaker 1: change in that, you know, the extractive industries when we're talking, uh, copper, lithium,

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Speaker 1: other minerals. That company is one of mine. The status

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Speaker 1: quo right now is still pretty liberal in terms of

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Speaker 1: what companies are able to do. Yeah, that's pretty liberal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that will of course the emvironmental relations, but they're not

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Speaker 1: as strong as it should be. I think, for example,

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Speaker 1: just a very short example here in Ada, Comma is

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Speaker 1: a case of a gold mine that was actually everywhere

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Speaker 1: in the world. Then what was the National Geographic magazine?

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Speaker 1: Where to start to to dig the mining? They need

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Speaker 1: to move a whole colony of tintilla that is an

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Speaker 1: animal in are very cute, Yes, exactly as well. And

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Speaker 1: they proposed a plan to move the cynteria from that

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Speaker 1: this um mountain and to move to another one, and

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Speaker 1: of course in the transportation then die and that's not

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Speaker 1: good mining. It's complicated, but I think we need to

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Speaker 1: face these problems in a in a in a wider way.

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Speaker 1: We need to talk about it. Not just everything have

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Speaker 1: to be you know, surrounded by market. We need to

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Speaker 1: also think about the future. We cannot do the same

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Speaker 1: thing forever because we have limits. The planet has limits.

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Speaker 1: And if we put inside the climate change, if you're

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Speaker 1: worsd so That's why it's so important to include different

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Speaker 1: ways and include diversity, people that think differently. It lista

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Speaker 1: and the big dialogues, or there was nothing would happen.

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Speaker 1: I will be worst at the end of the Dame.

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Speaker 1: So on the topic of paradoxes and looking at the

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Speaker 1: planet as a whole. And I want to make it

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Speaker 1: really clear that this is a devil's advocate question before

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Speaker 1: I ask it. But what do you say to people

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Speaker 1: who will look at the situation in Chile and they

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Speaker 1: will say, well, we need that copper and we need

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Speaker 1: that lithium so that we can shift to cleaner and

383
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Speaker 1: greener technologies on a global basis, we need electric cars,

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Speaker 1: We need more electricity in general in order to reduce

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Speaker 1: a miss and save the entire planet. And what if

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Speaker 1: it is necessary to sacrifice a desert in Chile in

387
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Speaker 1: order to save the planet. More broadly, what would you

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Speaker 1: say to those people, I think we need more elements

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Speaker 1: in the conversation. First, if it's I think we all

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Speaker 1: were agreed, then we need to decrease emission is some

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Speaker 1: saying crucial. But the country that produced more um carbon dioxide,

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Speaker 1: they're really doing their best, you know, they're really decreasing

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Speaker 1: the amount of carbon that they produce. Because we Chile,

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Speaker 1: we are very small country compared to others, we don't

395
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Speaker 1: we don't produce much carbon. We produce very little in

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Speaker 1: compared to the big no China or the US, and

397
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Speaker 1: but we have the corbon on the left field. So

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Speaker 1: and also the question is, of course we we it's

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Speaker 1: important to make this just transitions for electricity did, but

400
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Speaker 1: really will change the or destiny of global warming. That's

401
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Speaker 1: that's the one question that we have to solve. You know,

402
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Speaker 1: I think we need more research about that and and

403
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Speaker 1: open research and research and include other views, not just uh,

404
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, a way too tour of replacement. And what

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Speaker 1: we do is a replacement of things. We replace cars

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Speaker 1: based on carbon two cars based on electricity, but it's

407
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: still be in cars. And it's not also any incentive

408
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: to decrease the number of cars is the opposite. So

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Speaker 1: if I think that the conversation, you have to be

410
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Speaker 1: more honest. It's not just we sacrifice ecosystem for the

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Speaker 1: good of the of the planet, because I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: that will is like that at the end if we

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Speaker 1: put all together. So the current status quo seems to

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Speaker 1: be you have a few extremely rich countries or very

415
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Speaker 1: big countries in the case of China, that produce a

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Speaker 1: massive amount of emissions, and then there are mining and

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Speaker 1: it's in smaller countries. As you mentioned, Chile is not

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Speaker 1: a very big contributor to emissions or global warming directly,

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Speaker 1: and so the rich countries in the world want to

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Speaker 1: electrify and need or want the minerals and metals of

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Speaker 1: poor countries. Do you work with activists and scientists and

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Speaker 1: politicians in other countries as well to think about a

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Speaker 1: sort of global response to this, and more broadly, like,

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Speaker 1: why do you think it's happening now, because my impression

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Speaker 1: is that it's not just in Chile where people are

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Speaker 1: sort of becoming more aware waking up to some of

427
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: the costs associated with industrial scale money. Sure, sure, you know,

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Speaker 1: science and a knowledge is a collective work. Um uh.

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Speaker 1: My case also have been a personal way, personal road

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Speaker 1: because I'm from very specific discipline that is microbiologist, and

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Speaker 1: I have to and when how realizing, because I'm working salaries,

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Speaker 1: So every time I've been there working you know, to

433
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: study them biochemical mechanisms for act for adaptation to extreme conditions.

434
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: We went there and we noticed of the lay that

435
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: we're working. I say that it's also having a personal road.

436
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: You know me as a microbiologists um scientists working in

437
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: a very specific mechanism to understand the biology of microft.

438
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Then we work to the salaried working and every time

439
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: we whether, we realize that it is what some saying

440
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: different so that the place that we're used to work

441
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist anymore, that was completely drying out from example,

442
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: So at some point we faced that personally. So okay,

443
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: it's very important. The sign is very important to write

444
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: papers to know, you know, to be in the system.

445
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: But what we as a as a as a human,

446
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: as a person living here, we can protect this ecosystem

447
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: because we know that so important. They have a high

448
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: value diversity. They're probably in terms of bioptic compounds, is

449
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: a source of new medicine for the world, but they

450
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: use that now existent and the ecosystem is is the

451
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: destruction because lithium extraction is the destruction, means the destruction

452
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: of the salaries. There's no other way until now, and

453
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: and that's why I start to talk with other people

454
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: with other countries, with other disciplines. I started to also

455
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: create a network of people from anthropology that also works

456
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: in economy and why and we are excusing this And

457
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: I realized that was not crazy to think that, you know,

458
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: as I could be another ways, another possibilities, and that

459
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: we're trying to work now, can technology save us from

460
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: having to make some of these hard decisions? I feel

461
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: like that that's what people are often hoping, right that

462
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: there will be more efficient ways to use water when

463
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: it comes to copper or lathia mining and it won't

464
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: have as big an environmental impact and we can keep

465
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: doing it while electrifying the planet. Is that a possibility? Yeah,

466
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: Technology is important. Science is very important Chili, especially as

467
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: account to that invests very very few in in in

468
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: science and technology. That's why something that we put a

469
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: lot of attention in the new Constitution, we declare the

470
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: rights of knowledge and we hope, I really hope that

471
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: that would produce more alternatives, uh and also more technology.

472
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: But there is no one solution for this, you know,

473
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: It's that very very complex, and we also we have

474
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: to face this complexity, and to face complexity, we need

475
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: to include more people in the in the discussions. So

476
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: July fourth, the new Constitution was unveiled. When what is

477
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: the process now? Just for listeners, there's going to be

478
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: a referendum later this year, like what happens between now

479
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: and then and how does this work? Yeah, yeah, we'll

480
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: be a referendum this for September the fourth, in two

481
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: months more or less. Now already started the campaigns about

482
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: that too. To decision just approval, approve or reject rotasso

483
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: and the proposal that we did. So if it's work,

484
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: the work, when the ratasso, we will stay as we

485
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: are without changes. But also that's just it's a complicated

486
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: situation because we will not give any any response to

487
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: the social demands of people. So probably that also we

488
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: produce a time on political instability in the country. And

489
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: if you win the U provel, we need to also,

490
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean as as a country, we need to work

491
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: on installed what the constitutions said. That of course would

492
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: be a long term process. Probably will take tears to

493
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: do that, but I think it's very necessary, um, considering

494
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: that we need to advance in and wellness for the

495
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: people and also to face they speak, challenge and we

496
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: have as a small country that um also if we've

497
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: been will be very effective by climate change. Do you

498
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: think the new constitution will be approved. Yeah, I think so.

499
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: It's complicated. There is a lot of fake news around

500
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: that m mass media are are not really helping. But

501
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: I think people is very interesting and they're really looking

502
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: for So yeah, now we have to work a lot

503
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: for that. How exportable do you think some of the

504
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: principles enshrined in this new constitution would be to other countries?

505
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: And you know, I've seen it described um well in

506
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: all types of language. I think the economist called it

507
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: a fiscally irresponsible left wing wish list, which seems quite harsh.

508
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: I've seen people call it awoke constitution. I've seen other

509
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: people just say it's more progressive in the sense that

510
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: it pays attention to what people in Chile actually care about,

511
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: which you know is gender and economic equality and environmental concerns.

512
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: As you've been laying out, do you think the principles

513
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: or just the idea of some of these principles could

514
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: be used in other countries? Well, lu in the dictatorship

515
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: till also live, I think one of the biggest experiments

516
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: in the war. Oh no, we were the experiment for

517
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: the new liberalism, and that's the consequences. So and now

518
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: this is a hope for people, hope to live a

519
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: half of our life to do. And also when when

520
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: we explain that two people is um I have experience

521
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 1: to live in Europe for example, and Sis, it's something

522
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: you know normal that someone have right to go to

523
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: the hospital and have good quality attention, or to go

524
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: to the kids can go to the school and they

525
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: will be accepted. Not because of the amount of money

526
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: that we have. So there are basic things that's a

527
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: human rights as we're looking for here. So and I

528
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: think the analysts sometimes, especially when the look South America,

529
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: they really reduce the complexity of politics to left or right.

530
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: Here we're faces big challenges. I think, what is what

531
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: is climate change? It's left or right, it's different, it's different.

532
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: So I think that's also we need to do a

533
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: more deep try to understand what's going on in in

534
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: other countries. Think a little bit outside the box of

535
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: the market. I think a little bit about the diversity,

536
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: the contribution of the diversity and also the future. And

537
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that you can contribute. Especially

538
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: for example, I will mention about this is the first

539
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: time that we include um native you know, indigenous people

540
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: in this conversation and that also produced for example, we

541
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: we push an area called pistemic justice or knowledge justice,

542
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: so we have to respect but the other thing and

543
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: also what they know. That's why in our constitution regarding

544
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: the right for science, we call right for knowledge. So

545
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: it's the first time and it's also is a recommendation

546
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: from on ESCO that we recognize the knowledge as a whole,

547
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: so I mean science, technology, but also art, humanities, local

548
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: knowledge and indigenous knowledge, and that I think it is

549
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: a very important starting point to to deal with this

550
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: complex problems that we are deal right now and of

551
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: course we will deal in the future. Dr Door Door,

552
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. We've been needing

553
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: this perspective in the conversation for a while and I

554
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: really appreciate you laying it out and talking about the

555
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: work that you've done on the new constitution and the

556
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: rethinking of the costs of mining. So I appreciate you

557
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: coming out and outlasts. Okay, thank you very much. Again.

558
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: I hope the ideas were understandable because it's the other

559
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: another language, but thank you very much coverd this thing.

560
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: I think it's important for the audience. Thanks Fristina yeah,

561
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Tracy. I thought that was a

562
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: really good conversation. And I think that you know, whether

563
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: you think, oh, electrification and decarbonization should be prioritized, whether

564
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: you think you know, wherever you wait these various issues,

565
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: like this tension is very real. And I don't know

566
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: whether the new Chilean Constitution is going to pass or

567
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: not in September, but I don't think that this sort

568
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 1: of like growing awareness and maybe backlash towards some of

569
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: the environmental costs of mining is something that's going to

570
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: diminish any times. No, it feels like the tension is

571
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: kind of inescapable at this point. I did think Christina's

572
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: point about electric cars and the transition there this is

573
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: something that came up before, although I can't remember who,

574
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: but this idea that even if Western country reads shift

575
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: to completely electrified modes of transport, it doesn't mean that

576
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: suddenly the whole planet is saved, because a lot of

577
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: those old vehicles just go to emerging markets and continue

578
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: spewing emissions. So I think, I think what she's getting

579
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: at is the need for a holistic planet wide plan.

580
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: And then when I say that, I just feel very,

581
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: very sad. Because it feels like that is so far

582
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: off and it is really hard to sort of balance

583
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: individual interests versus the whole. Yeah, and you know the

584
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: other thing is like, look, I think it's not very

585
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: hard to get corporate interests in wealthy countries or even

586
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: the public necessarily behind the idea of like decarbonization. People

587
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: like electric cars, even for non environmental reasons, and so

588
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: if it's just about moving from gas electricity, that's pretty popular.

589
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: I don't like any time the conversation shifts towards consuming less,

590
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: fewer cars, less consumption overall, then I think like from

591
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: a sort of like political standpoint, from a market standpoint,

592
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: from a public in rich country standpoint, those solutions almost

593
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: seem like completely off the table and unacceptable. So the

594
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: idea like what about consuming what about having fewer cars?

595
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: What about making cars more sustainable so that they don't

596
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: need to be replaced all the time. Like that's when

597
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: I think the conversation gets the rubber really meets the road,

598
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: and you have real tension. But I think, look, if

599
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: there's going to be a major slowdown, and she said,

600
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: the new constitution doesn't propose a ban on mining, but

601
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: if you're going to change the way how water rights

602
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: are allocated. If you're going to change the way how

603
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 1: who can be involved in the permitting process. It's going

604
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: to slow down the trajectory of new mining, I would

605
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: suspect at a minimum. And then you get like this

606
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: real situation where like, Okay, there's at any given moment

607
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 1: there is less available and people don't like the politics

608
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: of consuming less are really tough. Yeah, I think that's right. Um.

609
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: And economics, by the way, and not well equipped for

610
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: a world where you're telling people that they basically just

611
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: have to consume less, like the whole thing is about growing,

612
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: growing more. Um. All right, well, shall we leave it there.

613
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of

614
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow

615
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Why

616
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: Isn't Though? You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart.

617
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: Follow our guest Dr Christina Door on Twitter. She's at

618
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: Ceo Door. Follow our producer Carmen Rodriguez at Kerman armand