Speaker 1: This is now around and find out right. So like
Speaker 1: so it's like, you know, you can like that's what
Speaker 1: it is, like it is, you know, and you can
Speaker 1: take that any which way you want. You can be like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're not going to disrupt my piece because
Speaker 1: you're gonna suk around and find out right. There are
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. As a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. So we
Speaker 1: talked a lot about media on this podcast, The Good,
Speaker 1: the Bad, and the Ugly, and it's really important to
Speaker 1: me because I think that everyone deserves access to thoughtful,
Speaker 1: accurate media that tells them the truth. And when people
Speaker 1: are not nourished by good stories, it creates a gap
Speaker 1: that gripters and bad actors are more than happy to
Speaker 1: fill with lies and junk. And this is especially bad
Speaker 1: for people that are already marginalized, like women and communities
Speaker 1: of color. It's a real problem, and it's something that
Speaker 1: Daniel Moody has spent her entire life trying to combat
Speaker 1: through creating digital content that meaningfully centers the kinds of
Speaker 1: people who are traditionally left out in ways that are thoughtful, nuanced,
Speaker 1: and most importantly honest. I am Danielle Moody. I am
Speaker 1: the host of Woke f and co host of Democracy Ish.
Speaker 1: Both our political podcast one is daily and one is
Speaker 1: weekly that I do with a co host. I'm also
Speaker 1: a columnist for Zora magazine, which is a property of
Speaker 1: medium Um and of political commentator using the I don't
Speaker 1: know the Internet to try and make some sense out
Speaker 1: of nonsense. I like, I like how you put that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's actually a great place to start. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm so familiar with your work just as a as
Speaker 1: a dynamic person who has interesting opinions, particularly about politics,
Speaker 1: and I guess I wonder what has the intersection of
Speaker 1: technology and the Internet and politics looked like for you? Like,
Speaker 1: I know that you're someone who, both on your podcast
Speaker 1: and on social media, really do a lot of the
Speaker 1: work of breaking down making sense of the world, uh
Speaker 1: and the people who are, you know, making decisions around
Speaker 1: it on the Internet. What does that look like for you?
Speaker 1: You know, It's really interesting because I think that I
Speaker 1: have had a different vantage point into politics by virtue
Speaker 1: of my age and when I came into doing the
Speaker 1: work that I was doing and you know, it was
Speaker 1: before we used to just have you know, three news sites,
Speaker 1: three news stations right that the world was paying attention
Speaker 1: to ABC, CBS, uh AN, NBC, and you had these
Speaker 1: reputable um or at the time, we thought neutral, reputable
Speaker 1: you know, white men that were delivering the news to us.
Speaker 1: And you know, the advent of the Internet and creating
Speaker 1: an entire social universe, creating the you know, the metaverse,
Speaker 1: um allowed for us to take you know, the power
Speaker 1: away from these institutions and actually create a more democratic
Speaker 1: understanding and make up of who is reporting on politics
Speaker 1: and what kind of analysis that they're offering. Like it
Speaker 1: democratized politics in a lot of ways, um that I
Speaker 1: think I have seen through you know, my origination of
Speaker 1: my first podcast, which was like in the early two
Speaker 1: thousands too. Now, um, it's it's incredible the amount of people,
Speaker 1: the amount of diverse voices, and the the amount of
Speaker 1: eyewitness reporting that we that we use, and we use
Speaker 1: firsthand accounts as opposed to just putting all of our um,
Speaker 1: all of our belief system into these institutions that have
Speaker 1: kind of been the gatekeepers. The gates have been able
Speaker 1: to open up wider for people that look like me
Speaker 1: because and look like us because of the Internet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's something that I've really seen a lot of, and
Speaker 1: I think, you know, you and I are probably very
Speaker 1: much aligned on this. But when you see people, typically
Speaker 1: white men, who are saying things like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: you know these days you can't say anything, cancel culture,
Speaker 1: all of that nonsense, I've always thought that what they're
Speaker 1: actually responding to is this new paradigm where actually marginalized
Speaker 1: people can have platforms that they build themselves. Actually marginalized
Speaker 1: people can put their ideas, in their opinions, and their
Speaker 1: their perspectives out into the world, and those perspectives will,
Speaker 1: you know, people will have to contend with those perspectives.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, traditionally, marginalized folks have always
Speaker 1: pad We've always had our perspectives. But because of the Internet,
Speaker 1: those perspectives are are you able to have a platform
Speaker 1: that that you built yourself or you know, or have
Speaker 1: have conditions were like, folks have to take what you're
Speaker 1: saying seriously or have there has to be some repercussions
Speaker 1: for what you're saying, as opposed to just being ignored.
Speaker 1: And so I think that when people respond to to
Speaker 1: you know, oh, these days you can't say anything without
Speaker 1: being canceled. What they're actually responding to is like, no,
Speaker 1: just more voices are part of the conversation, and that's new. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that they're responding to, you know, something crazy
Speaker 1: called accountability. That they are actually going to be people
Speaker 1: that are going to push pushed back against the things
Speaker 1: that you're saying. And that while we have become so
Speaker 1: accustomed and so ingrained with centering whiteness in the way
Speaker 1: that we see the world, that when you have diverse
Speaker 1: voices that are here, we have a totally different articulated
Speaker 1: narrative right than the one that has been force spent
Speaker 1: to us. And I think that in this state where
Speaker 1: we are right now, you know, people I've heard white
Speaker 1: men say like, oh, I'm just scared, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you have no reason to be scared. If you're not
Speaker 1: if you're not a creed, you have no reason to
Speaker 1: be scared, if you not a racist, if you're not
Speaker 1: a misogynist. You know, like, you should you should not
Speaker 1: be worried. You should have wanted things like this um
Speaker 1: to exist. And the fact that people are being held
Speaker 1: accountable for the things that come out of their mouths Um,
Speaker 1: it is not risk free right to to offer up
Speaker 1: your opinions. And I think that people need to be
Speaker 1: aware of that. And just because you are sis and white,
Speaker 1: uh and straight does not mean that you are neutral.
Speaker 1: And I think that we are finally at a place
Speaker 1: where we're moving moving away from that perceived uh, that
Speaker 1: perceived norm like, oh it because I'm a black lesbian,
Speaker 1: then that means that like I can't be neutral, and
Speaker 1: I'm like neutral, neutrality is false. No one is neutral, right,
Speaker 1: And so that's that's the thing that we need to
Speaker 1: understand from the jump, and then we can have real
Speaker 1: honest conversations about cancel culture and accountability. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: this comes up on the show. I'm time and time
Speaker 1: again time again, this idea of the lie that we
Speaker 1: tell our selves, particularly in journalism. But I think across
Speaker 1: media that that that anybody is neutral, and I think
Speaker 1: that neutrality is really just code for like a white
Speaker 1: male cis heterosexual perspective, and so anybody who falls outside
Speaker 1: of that, and I would also saying like middle class,
Speaker 1: able bodied like like that is considered to be quote neutral,
Speaker 1: and anybody who happens to fall out of that perspective there,
Speaker 1: the idea is that they can't write about their own
Speaker 1: experiences or their own communities because they're going to be biased,
Speaker 1: when in fact, there is no such thing as neutrality.
Speaker 1: We have just coded coded the idea along these like
Speaker 1: incredibly like racialized gendered lines and had that dictate who
Speaker 1: gets to have a voice for a very long time
Speaker 1: in our in our media. Yeah, and I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's problematic because again, what we are saying
Speaker 1: is that they are the default, right, that white sis
Speaker 1: men are the default, and everyone else falls outside of
Speaker 1: the quote unquote norm. And it's like, why do we
Speaker 1: have this understanding of what is normal and what is not?
Speaker 1: Why is it that when you're seeing you know, you're
Speaker 1: listening to broadcasters and you're watching shows and they're talking about, oh,
Speaker 1: a man was shot today, but you know that by
Speaker 1: virtue of how they said that that it was a
Speaker 1: white man, right, because they don't say white right. So
Speaker 1: but if it was a black man, or a an
Speaker 1: Asian man or a Latino, they would articulate that fact.
Speaker 1: And so we have to move And we saw this,
Speaker 1: and I think I saw it in a really um
Speaker 1: disheartening way, but we saw out loud what black people
Speaker 1: have known for so long and people of color have known.
Speaker 1: As the war in Ukraine broke, you had journalists on
Speaker 1: a multitude of of stations and network saying, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you know, we've never seen something like this in you know,
Speaker 1: in Europe. This is this is so heartbreaking. It's not
Speaker 1: I mean, they have Starbucks and Instagram. It's not like
Speaker 1: this is serial or Afghanistan. And you're just like, so,
Speaker 1: your assumption is that the people in the countries that
Speaker 1: you just named do not are are, shouldn't have safety
Speaker 1: right that they that there, we should have expectations of
Speaker 1: violence in these areas. Yet your who was the perpetuator
Speaker 1: of violence around the globe, colonization and chattel slavery which
Speaker 1: originated in these places, and the Hundred Year War and
Speaker 1: all of these things, like somehow the fleeing of blonde
Speaker 1: hair and blue eyed people should invoke more empathy than
Speaker 1: the fleeing of brown hair and brown eyed people in
Speaker 1: various parts of the world. And it just it was
Speaker 1: that moment where it's just like you need to be
Speaker 1: really careful about the language that you use and what
Speaker 1: you were saying, right with saying what you said, and
Speaker 1: with not right like where used to and have been
Speaker 1: sensitized to violence in certain areas of the world because
Speaker 1: we sell it that way, right, um, And I think
Speaker 1: that that is incredibly problematic, and that's why I like,
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to be a part of this kind
Speaker 1: of wave of you know, podcasting and technology and how
Speaker 1: technology mixes with media to move outside of the quote
Speaker 1: unquote mainstream. Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that
Speaker 1: up and and a lot of my work both on
Speaker 1: the podcast in my focuses around things like um, media
Speaker 1: accountability and media trust, and I think you just really
Speaker 1: nailed it, right. I think that there are so like
Speaker 1: it pains me when I see people who fall prey
Speaker 1: to things like conspiracy theories or disinformation or misinformation online.
Speaker 1: But the reality is people have, particularly black and brown folks,
Speaker 1: have legitimate reasons to be very skeptical of some of
Speaker 1: our media, media that constantly otherwises us, media that constantly
Speaker 1: you know, shows us every day. That the Ukraine example
Speaker 1: that you just gave about the way that they were
Speaker 1: speaking about you know, how folks in uk Rain have
Speaker 1: Starbucks and their quote just like us, and how that
Speaker 1: was different than you know, sets up this this this
Speaker 1: dynamic where it's different than other countries. It's like very
Speaker 1: clear to me what they're trying to say. I think
Speaker 1: that we have not fully contended with how deeply, how
Speaker 1: deeply unserved so many traditionally marginalized communities are by institutions
Speaker 1: like traditional media, and that because that is true, because
Speaker 1: these institutions fail us every day. It sets folks up
Speaker 1: to be susceptible to disinformation, conspiracy theories, bad actors, people
Speaker 1: who are selling them, you know, nonsense, because it feels
Speaker 1: like that are our only other option. It's also not
Speaker 1: serving us in a meaningful way, not centering us in
Speaker 1: a meaningful way. Let's take a quick break at our back.
Speaker 1: We already know that bad actors and provocateurs intentionally weaponize
Speaker 1: and spread lies online and in media to stoke and
Speaker 1: inflame tensions. But what's sometimes harder to see are the
Speaker 1: ways that traditional media outlets, the kind of places that
Speaker 1: you would expect to be better, add fuel to the
Speaker 1: fire by spreading and normalizing inaccurate and inflammatory narratives as well.
Speaker 1: For instance, you probably might have heard that, according to
Speaker 1: a judge Tucker Carlson's show on Fox News doesn't actually
Speaker 1: have to include any actual you know news. The judge's
Speaker 1: opinion said that the general tenor of the show should
Speaker 1: inform a viewer that Carlson is not quote stating actual
Speaker 1: facts about the topics he discusses, and is instead engaging
Speaker 1: in quote exaggeration and non literal commentary. Daniel says that
Speaker 1: making our own media like she does can be a
Speaker 1: means of creating more authentic, not to mention, truthful information ecosystem,
Speaker 1: I would argue that, and I and I have said
Speaker 1: many times on on my own show, that we have
Speaker 1: an FCC, right we we we have an FCC that
Speaker 1: is supposed to regulate the airwaves and supposed to regulate
Speaker 1: television and radio. Um. And yet you have outlets like
Speaker 1: Fox News who outwardly promote lies. Right And and while
Speaker 1: we want to put up notations on on Netflix and
Speaker 1: on Amazon and on Hulu that says nudity, violence, smoking,
Speaker 1: all of these things, you know, age thirteen and up,
Speaker 1: we don't put the same notifiers on news outlets that
Speaker 1: are spreading dangerous lives that have cost people their lives. Right,
Speaker 1: And so it isn't just like looking at mainstream and saying, oh,
Speaker 1: my god, they're bad, but the people that are supposed
Speaker 1: to be in charge of regulating them have decided not to,
Speaker 1: and then they hide behind the Constitution and saying that, oh,
Speaker 1: it's freedom of speech. And it's just like, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying not to say what you're saying, but I'm saying
Speaker 1: that there should be a warning sign that comes with
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson. There should be a warning sign that comes
Speaker 1: with Laura Ingram. There should be a moment before their
Speaker 1: shows go on and midway through and when they close
Speaker 1: out that says that it is dangerous, that says that
Speaker 1: this is for entertainment purposes only, that it is not
Speaker 1: to be perceived as education. Right, And so by virtue
Speaker 1: of how we have allowed these entities to survive, it's
Speaker 1: the reason why podcasting in all of its form, talking
Speaker 1: about a range of themes has become so popular because
Speaker 1: you can't rely on mainstream media anymore to provide you
Speaker 1: with the information that you need. And we saw that
Speaker 1: readily apparent during UH during the beginning of COVID, right
Speaker 1: like you have all of these outlets saying, chirping and
Speaker 1: imparting what Donald Trump was saying, that it was a hoax.
Speaker 1: Hundreds of thousands of lives were lost because of that line,
Speaker 1: and not once again was there any lawsuit against Fox News,
Speaker 1: oh A, n any of these places to say that
Speaker 1: what they were saying was violent and crossing people their
Speaker 1: lives and that they were a national threat. Nothing. So
Speaker 1: I you know, I love the rise of kind of
Speaker 1: this um, this form of media because it's necessary, and
Speaker 1: I think that you're going to see more and more
Speaker 1: of it as people just move away from television altogether, right, um,
Speaker 1: because you're getting your information, you're streaming it in so
Speaker 1: many different ways. I know that you have are are
Speaker 1: a long time podcast or a long time person who's
Speaker 1: been using the Internet to build platforms that can really
Speaker 1: tell a different story. I feel the same way. You know.
Speaker 1: I've worked in podcasting in some capacity behind the mic
Speaker 1: in front of the mic since like two thousand nine, right,
Speaker 1: And so I was doing it back in the day
Speaker 1: when we didn't know what the heck we were doing,
Speaker 1: Like it was like the Wild World West. I was
Speaker 1: like learning everything that I was doing on on my
Speaker 1: like as I was doing it. And I think it's
Speaker 1: so interesting now to look around the space and just
Speaker 1: see a different a different, a different vibe, right, like
Speaker 1: it's it's I guess that that's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I love podcasting and the Internet as a place
Speaker 1: to build your own media platforms and tell a different
Speaker 1: kind of like media story because it does feel very inclusive.
Speaker 1: There are queer folks, black folks, brown folks, women, people
Speaker 1: with disabilities, you know, trans folks. Thanks to the Internet
Speaker 1: and technology, I believe we've been able to really build
Speaker 1: these platforms that center ourselves and just allow us to
Speaker 1: be seen in different lights. And that's that's so important
Speaker 1: because we deserve you know, thoughtful depictions of ourselves and media.
Speaker 1: We deserve media that that meaningfully centers and serves our communities.
Speaker 1: You know, I had a really interesting conversation over you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago with friends of mine because
Speaker 1: they were talking about how their jobs are using the metaverse,
Speaker 1: right that they are having the the what are they
Speaker 1: the oculus, the the you know, the the oculus eyewear,
Speaker 1: and that they are their organizations and their companies have
Speaker 1: created alternate universes within and camp and digital campuses to
Speaker 1: create community because they have gone virtual that they are
Speaker 1: still roughly of workers in the United states are still
Speaker 1: virtual and will remain that way, um because because of
Speaker 1: COVID and how it is just transformed the way that
Speaker 1: we were. And I thought to myself, wow, that that
Speaker 1: is really fascinating also terrifying, right because you I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, the thing about um, you know, television, and
Speaker 1: the thing about like not being so like being in
Speaker 1: social media, which you are addicted to your phone and
Speaker 1: your swiping and the democratization of it all is that
Speaker 1: we actually don't we actually carry the transphobia, the able ism,
Speaker 1: the racism into all of these spaces. So a while
Speaker 1: we have seen an expansion of representation in terms of
Speaker 1: who is holding the mike. What we are seeing though,
Speaker 1: as technology develops and we become more immersed with having
Speaker 1: our you know, quote unquote in real life, but then
Speaker 1: having our avatar having this other alternative metaverse, that what
Speaker 1: we're realizing is how those issues are just being reimagined
Speaker 1: in different spaces. And so it's like, how do we
Speaker 1: have a conversation that is about the excitement around how
Speaker 1: inclusive technology can be. But if we are not mindful
Speaker 1: about how it is being used and who is using it,
Speaker 1: that all we're doing is changing spaces, but not actually
Speaker 1: changing hearts in mind. Oh absolutely, I mean I completely agree,
Speaker 1: and I think you know, it doesn't matter if we're
Speaker 1: talking about the podcast space, the metaverse, web three. If
Speaker 1: if you are not intentional, and if you are not
Speaker 1: really mindful from the very beginning, it doesn't matter what
Speaker 1: revolutionary technology or revolutionary thing that you had that's going
Speaker 1: to democratized tech or democratize democratized media. You will just
Speaker 1: be rein like reinventing those same isms, racism, sexes, and
Speaker 1: all of them in this new space unless you are
Speaker 1: intentional from the very beginning. And that's why I think
Speaker 1: that it's I will always be like a tech optimist.
Speaker 1: I will always be excited and hopeful about the about
Speaker 1: the promises that new technology will bring. But I'm also
Speaker 1: a realist because I do know that we can People
Speaker 1: can get so starry eyed and excited about new technology
Speaker 1: and they think, you know, we won't need to have
Speaker 1: like these considerations won't be a problem in this in
Speaker 1: this new realm and the metaverse or in Web three.
Speaker 1: But then I know that is not true, because racism,
Speaker 1: like that train is never late, it's it shows up forever.
Speaker 1: That never always time it's always odd time. My god,
Speaker 1: it's never run off schedule. But that it's totally true.
Speaker 1: And I think you know, I had watched UM the
Speaker 1: documentary quoted bias uh a while back, and it blew
Speaker 1: my mind. I was just like, my god, not even
Speaker 1: can we think about relieving ourselves of racism? No, it's
Speaker 1: president algorithms. I'm not like Jesus Christ, you know. So
Speaker 1: it's like, if you're not tackling these issues, if you're
Speaker 1: not talking about them, if you're not trying to reach
Speaker 1: and break through the noise um, which is what I
Speaker 1: try and do on a day to day basis with
Speaker 1: with Woka app, It's like, if you're not trying to
Speaker 1: reach these people, were just transferring, right, We're not changing anything.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, we watched it with the whole
Speaker 1: debaffle around Spotify and Joe Rogan and the fact that
Speaker 1: oh okay, well Spotify decides okay, they get called out
Speaker 1: for some boarding racism by virtue of supporting him, and
Speaker 1: then they say, oh, well, we're gonna give uh fifty
Speaker 1: black people a hundred million, Like they're gonna get to
Speaker 1: share the pot of a hundred million dollars that we're
Speaker 1: gonna distribute that we have given one white sisman, And
Speaker 1: I said, who the hell was doing your pr and
Speaker 1: thought that that was gonna be a good look that
Speaker 1: basically you said that every podcaster of Color Right is
Speaker 1: worth one white man. I hated that. Yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 1: was just it was just disgusting. But you know, you listen,
Speaker 1: you know uh when we see uh TikTok and we
Speaker 1: see black creators on TikTok, you know, pushing back and saying, okay,
Speaker 1: So now these white creators come in, they bite our videos,
Speaker 1: they bite our work, they slap on their name to it,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they've got millions of
Speaker 1: followers and millions of dollars worth of endorsements, right, And
Speaker 1: so it's like, yes, we have all of these platforms
Speaker 1: that we can readily access, but it's like who's able
Speaker 1: to monetize, who's able to break through? There's still the
Speaker 1: gatekeepers that are largely white men that I get to say, yea,
Speaker 1: and they that's such a good point. And I think
Speaker 1: it goes back to I mean, something that's like a
Speaker 1: mentor once told me, is that you should always be
Speaker 1: really careful building your house on someone else's land. And
Speaker 1: I guess when I think about, you know, the platforms
Speaker 1: that I that I think of as platforms that I have,
Speaker 1: you know, built myself, and in a lot of ways
Speaker 1: I have, but you know, the powers that be at
Speaker 1: Apple could decide that I don't belong there and kick
Speaker 1: me off tomorrow. You know, if if you have have
Speaker 1: lots of lots of Instagram followers or TikTok followers, it's
Speaker 1: like it can feel like something that you have ownership over.
Speaker 1: But while our tech platforms and Internet platforms are all
Speaker 1: so you know, in the hands of you know, powerful
Speaker 1: tech leaders who all kind of happened to be white men,
Speaker 1: you really don't own as much as you think, I guess,
Speaker 1: I would say, And so I've always tried to be
Speaker 1: very mindful of that. That, Like, as as cool as
Speaker 1: it is to to try to build your own platforms
Speaker 1: to tell your own stories um yourself, it is a
Speaker 1: good reminder that while so much of the owning class
Speaker 1: is you know, white, straight tech leaders and tech bros
Speaker 1: and all of that, you know, what can you what
Speaker 1: can you really own? What can you really have that's yours?
Speaker 1: You know? And that's and that's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: you know why I became independent, right, Like, for the
Speaker 1: longest time I was doing the tap dance and the
Speaker 1: jig for networks for you know, to see me, see me,
Speaker 1: see me, and like show my work by virtue of
Speaker 1: how many hits on television that I could get, right,
Speaker 1: how many people were calling into my show when it
Speaker 1: was still on serious exam right, And so one of
Speaker 1: the reasons why it was important as a black we're
Speaker 1: woman to go to a podcast company that is run
Speaker 1: by black people, right, um, was because one, I did
Speaker 1: not want to have my voice um uh shrunken right,
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't. I didn't want to have to
Speaker 1: shrink myself to fit into other people's ideas of me.
Speaker 1: But then realizing that even in being independent, I still
Speaker 1: need the Apples and the Spotify's and you know this
Speaker 1: this stitchers and all of those places to put my
Speaker 1: independent work on. Right. So it goes back to what
Speaker 1: your mentor said about building your house on other people's land,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yes, I built this house, right, but
Speaker 1: I still have to put it someplace and I don't
Speaker 1: get like by you know, unfortunately don't own the apples
Speaker 1: and the and the Spotify's and those places. So you're
Speaker 1: still going to be behold in to those people who
Speaker 1: get to determine your worth in your value more. After
Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back and do it.
Speaker 1: I really identified with what you just said about going independent.
Speaker 1: And there was a time in my life where this
Speaker 1: was several years ago, where I thought the path for me,
Speaker 1: the path to be where I wanted to be in
Speaker 1: my career and in my life was sort of quote
Speaker 1: being seen by a big traditional media outlet. And I
Speaker 1: worked for a big news network whose name you definitely
Speaker 1: have heard of it. I'm not gonna say here, and
Speaker 1: so much of you know that I remember you from there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure I don't know it. I'm I'm It's like
Speaker 1: I don't. It's no big secret like people can people
Speaker 1: you know, and and no shape to them, like like
Speaker 1: I have no paid for them at all. But like
Speaker 1: I thought, I had really bought into this idea that
Speaker 1: the path forward was somebody at that network like liking
Speaker 1: me or seeing me. And so I was sort of
Speaker 1: always auditioning, even for a job I I already had.
Speaker 1: And when I when I look back at all of
Speaker 1: the work I had to do, to sort of not
Speaker 1: just let go of that job and let go of
Speaker 1: that mindset, but do a lot of like internal work.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, you know, I know that I have value.
Speaker 1: I know that I have something to say. I know
Speaker 1: that I have a perspective. It doesn't matter how many views,
Speaker 1: how many clicks my content or my piece makes for
Speaker 1: somebody else. My worth is not tied to that. And really,
Speaker 1: you know, you described it as like doing the dance.
Speaker 1: That was all I was doing in that part of
Speaker 1: my life, and it didn't get me anywhere. And I
Speaker 1: look back and I think all of these things that
Speaker 1: would have been that would have been for me like
Speaker 1: the height of success. I don't even need them anymore,
Speaker 1: let alone want them. I don't even need them anymore.
Speaker 1: The height of success to me is is having a
Speaker 1: platform to say what I want to say and feeling
Speaker 1: good about it and and not having to have the
Speaker 1: pressure of like, oh, I hope they like it. I
Speaker 1: hope it goes viral. I hope this. I hope that
Speaker 1: you know how exhausting that was and how much myself
Speaker 1: I spent on that on that dance. I guess I
Speaker 1: really identified with what you just said. Bridget I was like,
Speaker 1: you know it, I felt like I was on a
Speaker 1: hamster wheel for like ten years, right, just you know,
Speaker 1: my entree into media was around, uh, same sex marriage
Speaker 1: was in you know, the you know the tents, right,
Speaker 1: and you know, doing everything for those outlets, just trying
Speaker 1: to get on television, chasing the producers, chasing these things,
Speaker 1: making sure that you know, my social media was you know,
Speaker 1: just right, because I didn't want to be too offensive
Speaker 1: and to this and to that and too much right,
Speaker 1: and then finally realizing that what the hell am I doing?
Speaker 1: I have contorted myself into a water down version of
Speaker 1: myself so that I would make myself digestible to the
Speaker 1: white C suite and I and I just decided, I
Speaker 1: don't want this right. What I want is to share
Speaker 1: my thoughts and my message unfiltered, right. And if you
Speaker 1: don't like that unfilteredness, if you need your politics with
Speaker 1: more sugar than I am not the one right, because
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it to you straight. So it
Speaker 1: was you know, the recognition for me. And again this
Speaker 1: came really through the pandemic of looking around and realizing
Speaker 1: that everything was shifting. Everything that you thought I was
Speaker 1: was no longer and saying that this was an opportunity
Speaker 1: for those of us in a privileged space, This was
Speaker 1: an opportunity to reinvent and to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm dropping all of the precursors, I'm dropping all of
Speaker 1: the caveats. I'm actually just gonna say what the funk
Speaker 1: I want to say and how I want to say it,
Speaker 1: And if you want me on air, book me. If
Speaker 1: you don't, I ain't chasing you. And I'm good right
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna say what I want to say, how
Speaker 1: I want to say it, and miss me, you know,
Speaker 1: with everybody else's interpretation of how it should be. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so I love how you put that, and I
Speaker 1: think I had the same thing. And for me, it
Speaker 1: went back to this idea of stopping this dance of
Speaker 1: trying to be everything for everybody and just realizing that, like,
Speaker 1: what I have to say is not going to hit
Speaker 1: with everybody, and that's okay, and that actually is helpful
Speaker 1: because it allows me to spend time really leading into
Speaker 1: my people and my and like who I am for
Speaker 1: and so rather than spending all that energy trying to
Speaker 1: be you know, exactly the right curated version of myself.
Speaker 1: I'm it's going to be who I actually am, and
Speaker 1: the people who are with that that will resonate with them,
Speaker 1: and the people who are not with that who cares
Speaker 1: like like I'm not for them, I'm not for everybody.
Speaker 1: I am who I'm for and not who I should
Speaker 1: be concerned about people who I'm not for. It's not
Speaker 1: really my business what they think about me. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I still do a bit of,
Speaker 1: and this is only for you know, organizations who align
Speaker 1: with my with my value set and my missions, is
Speaker 1: that I do media trainings and executive coaching for underrepresented
Speaker 1: CEOs and executive directors. And I remember that when I
Speaker 1: started doing media trainings many years ago, you know, it
Speaker 1: was always about trying to present people's best version of themselves, right,
Speaker 1: but it was also about making them palpable, watering them down.
Speaker 1: What about thinking about what what will margin Middle America think? Right? Like,
Speaker 1: what will this person think? Now? When I do media trainings,
Speaker 1: I say, tell the truth? What what what is the
Speaker 1: truth that you want to be offering up to you know,
Speaker 1: to the to the people. Do you understand your audience?
Speaker 1: Do you know where they are? Right? And then we
Speaker 1: can craft whatever message that you want, but at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, this is about telling the truth.
Speaker 1: This is not about watering things down. We are past
Speaker 1: the water down version um of of of America and
Speaker 1: what we need to be seeing and doing. People need
Speaker 1: to be activated. And I think that, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the purposes of mainstream media is pacification, because if
Speaker 1: they actually wanted people to be you know, riled up,
Speaker 1: to be knowledgeable, then we wouldn't see the kind of
Speaker 1: news that we see right like there, It wouldn't just
Speaker 1: be you know, the three stories that all of the
Speaker 1: networks are going to cover for a week and that's
Speaker 1: gonna be it, right, There would be more substance that
Speaker 1: is there. And so you know, we also have to
Speaker 1: recognize that we're not going to be able to get
Speaker 1: our education through the people who are trying to actually
Speaker 1: remain in power and continue to oppress people. What wasn't
Speaker 1: it Audrey Lord that says the master's tools are not
Speaker 1: going to dismantle the master's house. Then that is like
Speaker 1: to me, how I look at mainstream media versus you know,
Speaker 1: podcasting and the new age of technology and media is
Speaker 1: that we are using different tools to still try and
Speaker 1: dismantle this house, but then recognizing that the house that
Speaker 1: we have built is still on somebody else's land. And
Speaker 1: so what is the next step? What does the next
Speaker 1: iteration of that look like? Well, I guess I have
Speaker 1: to send that question back to you. What does that
Speaker 1: look like? What does the next step look like? In
Speaker 1: your mind? You know? I just I realized for for me,
Speaker 1: just recently, I went on TikTok, right. I I literally
Speaker 1: just joined TikTok like a month ago, and I was
Speaker 1: totally against it because I'm like, I ain't going on
Speaker 1: this children's site, right like in my head, that's why
Speaker 1: I said, I'm not going on this children's site. And
Speaker 1: then I started to realize that, you know, it used
Speaker 1: to be that to be considered credible, you needed to write,
Speaker 1: right then people do. Then we we realized people don't
Speaker 1: actually like to read. Then it was oh well, then
Speaker 1: go on television, and then you realize like, oh well,
Speaker 1: people's attention attention span has actually shrucked. Now I need
Speaker 1: to figure out a way that I'm shrinking down my
Speaker 1: forty minutes show that I do daily into just one minute,
Speaker 1: just sixty seconds of content, because that's how people are
Speaker 1: getting their information. So I couldn't just pooh pooh like
Speaker 1: this this medium that felt uncomfortable to me because I
Speaker 1: wasn't the age target demographic for it. But then recognize that,
Speaker 1: like we as content creators need to be adapting to
Speaker 1: where people are getting their content and how they are
Speaker 1: consuming that content. So for me, the next iteration is
Speaker 1: just meeting people where they are and making sure that
Speaker 1: I am as nimble as possible and that there is
Speaker 1: no no right, like, no, I don't want to do this,
Speaker 1: No it doesn't feel right. If it doesn't feel right, great,
Speaker 1: But I don't want to close myself out of different
Speaker 1: ways to communicate with people, because that is always going
Speaker 1: to evolve. And for a content creator and somebody that
Speaker 1: wants to wake people up needing to evolve with where
Speaker 1: people are, that's such a smart way to think about it.
Speaker 1: Like that's why, that's why I started out as a podcaster,
Speaker 1: because it was like an emerging this is you know,
Speaker 1: back in the day, it was like an emerging new medium,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, I'm so excited to see
Speaker 1: what people do with this, and people were doing like
Speaker 1: weird out off the wall stuff with it, and so
Speaker 1: I think, like being willing to be nimble and saying
Speaker 1: yes to new places where it feels right for your
Speaker 1: voice to be, where it feels like like there's alignment.
Speaker 1: I think it's really is really key, Yeah, because I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to fit where I don't you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to make And I think that that to
Speaker 1: just going back really quickly to UM to mainstream media,
Speaker 1: that was the thing, is that I was trying to
Speaker 1: fit myself into a space that did not want me
Speaker 1: and actually was very clear about the fact that they
Speaker 1: did not want me, right, But I kept trying to
Speaker 1: fit in, fit in. And I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: by virtue of just having been in this podcasting space,
Speaker 1: been in this new media space for you know, a
Speaker 1: decade now, UM, it is it's really interesting to decide
Speaker 1: to to follow your own beat, right, to create your
Speaker 1: own like to figure out what works for you and
Speaker 1: then just keep pushing it out right and you know,
Speaker 1: and people will buy like they do. You know, people
Speaker 1: people will buy, but you have to be really steadfast
Speaker 1: and what it is that you're creating and delivering UM
Speaker 1: and then figure out where to put it. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it's like I've definitely gotten to a place again over
Speaker 1: years of internal work and sort of like figuring out
Speaker 1: where my perspective. I don't want to be in any
Speaker 1: rooms where it's clear that I am not welcome. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be anywhere where my presence is not
Speaker 1: a gift of value. You know, people don't like I
Speaker 1: just have no interest. Maybe it's comes with getting older,
Speaker 1: but yeah, but it's it's true, but it'sn't true. It's
Speaker 1: just like you know, And I think it's because the
Speaker 1: generations that came before us thought so hard to get
Speaker 1: into those rooms, right, they fought so hard to get
Speaker 1: a seat at the table. And I think that the
Speaker 1: generations that are coming now are just like, yeah, fuck
Speaker 1: that room. I don't need it. Like I'll create, literally,
Speaker 1: I will create my own space, like I'm good. You know,
Speaker 1: you continue to do you over there, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to create something over here. And you know that That
Speaker 1: is what gives me hope about about new media, about
Speaker 1: these the ways in which we're all adapting to these
Speaker 1: different spaces, is that it's an opportunity for us to
Speaker 1: show up as our most authentic selves. Right, It's the
Speaker 1: opportunity to say, like, no, I'm not gonna do you
Speaker 1: know I remember when I locked my hair, right, this
Speaker 1: is you know, twenty years ago I locked my hair
Speaker 1: and people were just like, and you're gonna work in politics.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's a good idea, right because
Speaker 1: unless I was going to present some Eurocentric form version
Speaker 1: of myself, some perm pressed form version of myself, then
Speaker 1: apparently what was going to come out of my mouth
Speaker 1: didn't matter, right. So I think that we are still
Speaker 1: in a place. I mean, we just passed the Crown Act,
Speaker 1: but we're still in a place where like we're still
Speaker 1: having to justify how we look, how we sound. But
Speaker 1: I think that it's a better place used to be
Speaker 1: in when we're the ones that are owning and creating
Speaker 1: the spaces and deciding where and when and how we
Speaker 1: want to be involved, right, and like how and where
Speaker 1: and when we want to show up. It's a different
Speaker 1: form of power. M h. I love that. And think
Speaker 1: about this, like I never thought I'd either day where
Speaker 1: we have Judge Jackson about to make history as first
Speaker 1: black woman on Spreme Court with braids. I never thought
Speaker 1: I see the day and here we are, And so
Speaker 1: I think it goes to show you that, you know,
Speaker 1: we've come to a different place where I think that
Speaker 1: we have we're setting the standard for how we want
Speaker 1: to show up, and I think that standard is being
Speaker 1: dictated by us and and and not not external forces.
Speaker 1: And I love that for us. I hope that we
Speaker 1: all hope that that this is like a new a
Speaker 1: new normal where we just accept that we are going
Speaker 1: to show up as ourselves, our most authentic selves, and
Speaker 1: folks can accept that or not accept that. You know,
Speaker 1: one of the funniest things that came out of the
Speaker 1: funniest memes that I saw that came out of the Oscars,
Speaker 1: you know, debacle, was this is now sunk around and
Speaker 1: find out right. So like so it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you can like that's what it is, like it is,
Speaker 1: you know, and you can take that any which way
Speaker 1: you want. You can be like, you know, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna disrupt my piece because you're gonna look around and
Speaker 1: find out, right, like I'm going to continue telling the truth,
Speaker 1: or you're gonna work around and find out Like I
Speaker 1: think that whatever that means for you, but it is
Speaker 1: it's saying like, yeah, I'm not trying to fit myself
Speaker 1: into your standards, right, I'm going to make my own um.
Speaker 1: And the more like that you try and uh place
Speaker 1: people into boxes, the more that you're going to see
Speaker 1: people want to burst out of them. And I think
Speaker 1: that if we can embrace you know, this new season
Speaker 1: of life and expectations that we have for our self, right,
Speaker 1: and the brands that we are building and creating, then
Speaker 1: you know, we it will be a a new it
Speaker 1: will be a new dawn, right, And I think that
Speaker 1: every day is the beginning of a new dawn. Every
Speaker 1: season offers us an opportunity to try to be better,
Speaker 1: do things that are bolder, right, And I think that
Speaker 1: that's what podcasting allows us to really do, is to
Speaker 1: be bold, to be big, um, and to exist outside
Speaker 1: of the box. Mm hmm. I love that, Danielle. I
Speaker 1: have one last question for a little bit of a
Speaker 1: curveball question. So one of your podcasts is called Woke
Speaker 1: a f what do you And it's fantastic. People should
Speaker 1: definitely listen to it as well as democracy ish um,
Speaker 1: But what is it like? You know? The e this
Speaker 1: idea of being woke, you know, definitely started in black vernacular,
Speaker 1: like that was our term, and now I feel that
Speaker 1: it's almost become a dog whistle right, like, you know,
Speaker 1: speaking of Judge Jackson, I remember before, even before she
Speaker 1: was named as the Supreme Court nominee, and Biden was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I'm planning on picking a black woman. Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the arguments I heard about this hypothetical black
Speaker 1: woman who wasn't even named yet was that she was
Speaker 1: going to be the woke choice for the Subpreme Court.
Speaker 1: How do we get to this place where the term
Speaker 1: woke is now almost like a just like a coded
Speaker 1: dog whistle for black And what do you what do
Speaker 1: you make of that as someone who you know has
Speaker 1: a show that that is you know, the word that
Speaker 1: you used to describe your your own um, you know,
Speaker 1: your your own politics and ideology. I mean, for me,
Speaker 1: being woke is about being uh conscious and aware of
Speaker 1: the world around you, right, living and like what does
Speaker 1: it mean to live consciously? Right? Not as ostriches that
Speaker 1: are burying our heads in the sand uh and and
Speaker 1: waiting for the time to turn right? And I think
Speaker 1: that you know what the what progressives and and folks
Speaker 1: on the left have allowed once again is for the
Speaker 1: right to co op the language uh and and turn
Speaker 1: it into turn something that is very positive which is
Speaker 1: about you know what, what is what is the opposite
Speaker 1: of being woke? And that's the thing that I say
Speaker 1: to folks, like, why is there no pushback when they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna be the world kind? So what is your
Speaker 1: preference for somebody to be asleep? What is your what
Speaker 1: is your preference for us to be unconscious? Right? And
Speaker 1: because what does that allow you to do if the
Speaker 1: rest of us are in slumber? Right? It allows for
Speaker 1: you to run rough shot and have no accountability and
Speaker 1: no responsibility for the things that you do because they're
Speaker 1: nobody paying attention. So like, I think that you know, you,
Speaker 1: we have to reclaim um words that we allow the
Speaker 1: radical right to take over. And then but what people do,
Speaker 1: like what you know white moderates want to do, uh,
Speaker 1: and democrats want to do, is that they want to
Speaker 1: run from it. Oh we're not woke, you know, we're
Speaker 1: just like everybody else. No I'm not, No, I am
Speaker 1: not And that is okay, right, Like I don't want
Speaker 1: to go through my life asleep, and neither should you,
Speaker 1: because I don't know what good comes to anybody um
Speaker 1: when they don't live their lives consciously and on their
Speaker 1: own terms. So I think that there needs to be
Speaker 1: consistent pushed back to that, to um the negative connotation
Speaker 1: that folks have allowed um uh, white supremacists on on
Speaker 1: the right to to attribute to a word that was
Speaker 1: birthed out of black people deciding right and recognizing that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we live consciously. So what about the rest
Speaker 1: of you, Because while the rest of you get to
Speaker 1: walk around and pretend that like, ain't nothing going on,
Speaker 1: we're the ones that have to look around and make
Speaker 1: sure that, like we're as safe as we can possibly be.
Speaker 1: If black people were to walk around their lives in
Speaker 1: a slumber, we would all be dead, right, like, so
Speaker 1: let let us you know, I think that it's important
Speaker 1: to push back against against those against those negative connotations.
Speaker 1: And you do it every week and every day with
Speaker 1: both of your shows, And I'm so grateful for your
Speaker 1: work and grateful for your voice. Danielle. Where can folks
Speaker 1: keep up with all of the amazing stuff that you've
Speaker 1: got going on? Thank you? Um, yes, folks can keep
Speaker 1: up with me. Woke a app is my Day through Friday.
Speaker 1: You can get that on anywhere that you get your podcast,
Speaker 1: whether it is on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, if you want
Speaker 1: the video version of that daily show, you can get
Speaker 1: that at Patreon dot com, slash wi g f UM,
Speaker 1: where the video show is up every single day uh.
Speaker 1: And then you can follow me on Twitter where I'm
Speaker 1: extraordinarily active at D two spend E, t w O
Speaker 1: C and t F and newly to taktok uh Danielle
Speaker 1: Moody Underscore, so you can check me out there to
Speaker 1: where I am getting very very little. Got a story
Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to
Speaker 1: say hi, you can be just at Hello at tangdi
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode
Speaker 1: at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on the
Speaker 1: Internet was created by me bridgetad. It's a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Stricklands our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michaelmato is
Speaker 1: our contributing producer. I'm your host to Bridget Dodd. If
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check
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