1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Adding and Samantha and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: I've never told you a protection of I heart radio 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: and today we're thrilled to be joined by Chelsea of 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: the podcast Dear Young Rocker to talk about a lot 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: of things, but like the impact moms have on our 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: self esteem and women and girls in the music industry, 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: because podcaster is just one of many hats you have 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: worn and currently do wear. So hey, Chelsea, thank you 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Hey, thanks so much for 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: having me. Of course, could you introduce yourself to our listeners? 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: Certainly so. I am Chelsea Arson. I'm from Boston, and 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm an independent podcast producer and my show is called 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: called Dear Young Rocker, and Dear Young Rocker is an 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: audio memoir of myself ages like eleven through eventually early twenties, 15 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: about struggling with the things that many adolescents struggle with, 16 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: body image, anxiety, social anxiety, you know, depression, a lot 17 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: of things we all go through, and then how I 18 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: found the outlet of music to help me through all 19 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: of those struggles and how I discovered that on my 20 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: own and then sort of processed a lot of feelings 21 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: through playing music, and then playing in bands. I was 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: a bass player, and so I kind of recreate how 23 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: I found the base and started playing it, and I 24 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: recreate the sounds of my first high school bands. Um. 25 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: And then I also give advice to younger people who 26 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: might be going through the same things I went through 27 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: at that age, and I try to really level with 28 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: teenagers as opposed to sort of talk down to them 29 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: and say, oh, you know, stop being so sensitive. You 30 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: know you're going to outgrow this phase, etcetera, etcetera that 31 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: I was told when I was young. So I kind 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: of say, your feelings are valid, and let's talk about 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: what's going on with you and it's okay to be 34 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: you when you're not alone and what you feel. Yeah. 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: I when I listened to it, I immediately connected with 36 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: a lot of it, and I could, oh, yeah, I 37 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: remember being I remember I also started to abandoned high school. 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: But it didn't do anywhere like yeah, I was very cool, great, um. 39 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, I really appreciated how when you're writing these 40 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: notes or letters to your younger self, it's from a 41 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: place of understanding this is why you were feeling this way. 42 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: And people with anxiety in particular, like no one was 43 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: telling you that, And so I think that's a great 44 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: approach because is we do often talk down to younger 45 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: folks and we dismissed. I feel like we forget that 46 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: when we were that too, and it wouldn't have helped 47 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: for someone to be like, oh yeah, get over it. 48 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Yeah right. And I was thinking the same thing when 49 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: I was listening. I was like, man, this is so familiar. 50 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: I remember having those thoughts in my head about this 51 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: is if I could just do this, or if this 52 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: would change, and why won't this happened? And this is 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: the worst or this is the best, all of those situations. 54 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god. It was like yesterday I 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: had those anxieties trying to be a teenager, and when 56 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: you feel very different from the crowd around you, you're 57 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: like what what right? What do what? Do? Tell? Right? 58 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: It was very nostalgic. Also, you were a part of 59 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: controversial conversation last night because we were talking about the 60 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: music that you were referencing and about whether or not 61 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: we were like that's cool, that's not cool? What did 62 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: had a whole moment of about you know, whether it 63 00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: was about Green Day, Lincoln Park came in, like so 64 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: that was a whole conversation of like, oh my god, 65 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: I forgot about all these things, loving these things and 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: feeling so a part of the lyrics or the music, 67 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: and feeling that angst and how genuine that felt in 68 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: the moment, and how oftentimes we do ignore that. And 69 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: I know I've worked with teenagers who at risk teenagers 70 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: and often times how dismissed they are, but also how 71 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: connected they were to they are to music, into words 72 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: and writing, and how it feels so personal for them. 73 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: So it's a beautiful, beautiful podcast, Thank you very much. Yeah, 74 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: the words of teenage girls in particular are usually seen 75 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: as silly. You know, It's like, oh, right in your 76 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: diary and then burn it when you're twenty because it's 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: too embarrassing, which is what I did unfortunately. So I 78 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: tend to go back and like kind of recreate memories 79 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: through conversations with friends and whoever. But at this point, 80 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: as more of a grown up, I guess, um, I 81 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: feel like those those feelings were valid important because that 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: was the beginning of who I am. Like I've leveled out, 83 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: but those feelings still happen sometimes. I just know how 84 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,799 Speaker 1: to deal with them, and I don't want to pretend 85 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: that I'm a completely different person than that that teenage me, 86 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: even though it feels like I am you know, yeah, yeah, 87 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: you can see the inklings, but you would become I 88 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: think it's just more accepting that this is okay, more 89 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: so than changing, Like right, Like I've accepted this is 90 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: where I am, and these are the coping skills and 91 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: learned growing up. Right, I'm like, okay, panic attack, here 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: you are again. Let's hang out for a minute in 93 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: the bathroom and then like instead of like, oh no, 94 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: my life's going to end because I'm panicking right right, 95 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: and kind of going off of that. Something we've talked 96 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: a lot about on this podcast and even recently in 97 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: talks that we've given UM and its recurring theme in 98 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: your podcast is anger, and particularly anger when it comes 99 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: to women and girls. UM and I, for one, have 100 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: been real honest with people on this show. I never 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: learned to express it. I struggle being angry. I go 102 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: from zero to oh my god, terrifying angry. And because 103 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: of that, like I've often joked, even though I think 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: it's true, instead of expressing anger, I would allow like 105 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: something hurtful to happen. UM, so can you talk about 106 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: your experience with anger and finding this acceptable outlet to 107 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: spress it. So, yeah, from a very young age, I 108 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: have very early memories of feeling like I guess rage, 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: just uncontrollable feelings like I just wanted to punch all 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: the boys on the playground or whatever it was, or 111 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: yell at the teacher who corrected me, or and I 112 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: no one told me this, but I had absorbed the 113 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: message that it's not okay for a girl to feel 114 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: that way. That if I were a boy, I could 115 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: go punch someone and they'd be like boys being boys, 116 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: just playing on the playground. But I knew that if 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: I did that, I would be what I'd hold myself was. 118 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: I would be crazy, and so I couldn't let anyone 119 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: see that side of me, and so I kept it in, 120 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: which I think a lot of nonsense. Males do we 121 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: keep our anger in because we don't want to hurt 122 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: other people, and so we hurt ourselves, And so I 123 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: hurt myself over and over keeping that in, and I 124 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: was never presented. I remember I asked my parents if 125 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: I could play football because I felt like I needed 126 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: to get this out. I intuitively knew that I didn't 127 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: like sports. I just felt like I had to release this, 128 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: and they were like, no, you're gonna get hurt. You 129 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: can't play football. We don't want you to have a 130 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: head injury and whatever else, or as my dad said, 131 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: we don't want you to hurt your little boobies. And 132 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: so yeah, I kept it in for years, and then 133 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: of my own volition, I started playing music and listening 134 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: to heavier, like alternative rock bands, and when I was 135 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: listening to those songs, that angry feeling was channeled into something, 136 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: into those heavy chords and those that headbang I do 137 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: along to it, and during that time, that uncomfortable anger, 138 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: like while I was listening to a song or playing along, 139 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: it didn't bother me anymore. Like physically, I mean, anger 140 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: and anxiety is so physical and can like just make you, 141 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, nauseous and headache, have a migraine, whatever, And 142 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know that's what was happening. I had terrible 143 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: heartburn and I didn't even know that's what it was, 144 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: and it was from anxiety. But when I was listening 145 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: to music, I didn't feel that anger and I didn't 146 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: feel that anxiety, and I couldn't express that to anyone. 147 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: I just knew how I felt. And I think still 148 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: now it's any girl or woman that feels angry, it's 149 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: always going to check themselves and want to put it 150 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: on themselves first. So then when it does finally surface 151 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: because you just can't fit anymore in that bottle and 152 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: the cat pops off, it's like where did that come from? 153 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: And you just want to say, I've been there building forever, 154 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: but you might not even be able to verbalize that 155 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 1: even to yourself. So and at this point, like I said, 156 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: I um, I see those feelings. I still have those 157 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: angry feelings, but I'm like, okay, here we are. I'm 158 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: going to make sure I go to a kickboxing class later, 159 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: or I'm gonna play with my band or something, scream 160 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: at a pillow, whatever it is. And yeah, and I 161 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: just wish it was. I still don't think it's something 162 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: that's talked about. It's like, again, normal for boys to 163 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: have hormones and be testy um, but everyone has hormones. 164 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Everyone goes through adolescents and their bodies change and they 165 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: can't keep up with it and their brains can't keep 166 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: up with those changes. So why do we act like 167 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: there's just one specific gender that that happens to. Yeah, 168 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: speaking of bodies changing, you dig into your body issues 169 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: a lot as well as do we um, and you 170 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: talk about how and puberty hit for you. It kind 171 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: of hit your bottom half and your top and you 172 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: felt like two different people. Um. And then this push 173 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: from your mom to wear nineties jeans and your preference 174 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: for boys close jenkos, which I also totally was like, yep, 175 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember this and wishing strongly that 176 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: you weren't a girl, um, and really despising girliness. And 177 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: you later came to understand what you really despised was 178 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: like these expectations, right, yes, but can you talk a 179 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: little bit about that? Sure? Yeah, I um, I mean 180 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: I was a shy, anxious kid. I didn't want to 181 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: be looked at period, and so anything about me that 182 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: made me stand out I hated. And so yeah, puberty 183 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: hit and I guess I'm estrogen dominant or whatever. So 184 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: I got hips at a young age and this was 185 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's. No, butts weren't cool. They were 186 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: like the on that was like your old aunt or something. 187 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: You know. That kind of body shape was not hot 188 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: at least not where I grew up. Um, it was like, 189 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: you go to limited two and you get pants that 190 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: are like one inch above not even like half an 191 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: inch above your butt crack. And I couldn't fit into 192 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: those things, and I'd wear them to school and get 193 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: made fun of. And I didn't want anyone to see 194 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: my body, so I just wore the baggiest clothes I 195 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: could find and justified it to myself, being like, oh, 196 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm just not feminine, um, even though I didn't really 197 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: know what any of that meant yet. Um, And now 198 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: I know, I just don't like the baggage that being 199 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: perceived as female comes with. And I also can separate 200 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: that out from my own internal qualities and physical qualities, 201 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: and you know, they're not necessarily related to gender in 202 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: any way. They're just different qualities about me, and it's 203 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: a big mixed bag. But at the time, I just 204 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: thought I'd do anything to not be a girl because 205 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: I just hate how it feels. And that seems like 206 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: that's an ongoing conversation about how limiting it can be 207 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: when you have these defined, biased and buying airy gender roles, 208 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: and what kind of problems it creates for young girls, 209 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: shoot for adults, even as we're trying to figure out 210 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: what we're supposed to be, how we're supposed to be perceived, 211 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: even when we're talking about anger and talking about political candice, 212 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: and if they not necessarily speak in a tone or loudly, 213 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: but just being actually making the statement, being assured in 214 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: themselves and having an appropriate argument is angry. And it's 215 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: kind of this negative tone of oh, these are not 216 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: likable women, and to be likable you have to be 217 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: agreeable in all things and meet these expectations, you know, 218 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: And I think, like, I love where you're looking at. 219 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: I love the fact that you do talk about how 220 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: you just wanted to cover up everything, because we know 221 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: that that's one of the big conversations with Billie Eilish 222 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: and and her whole point of not necessarily being a 223 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: fashion statement, but but just I don't need you to 224 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: know what I look like. I don't need to show 225 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: that off. And then also I know recently she just 226 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: at a show actually took everything off of was like, 227 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: you can't define me to be one way or the other. 228 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: I want to have the auction to be however, I 229 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: want to define myself. So did you think when you 230 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: see things like that? Happening. Do you think that is 231 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: they step forward rather than like he finally we're actually 232 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: on the same page. And yes, these are the same 233 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: issues that kids are going through today that I went 234 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: through twenty years ago. Yo, I think myself at this point, Yeah, 235 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there is this you know, 236 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: feminist message out there. You can dress however you want. 237 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: You're in control of how much or how little you 238 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: reveal based on how comfortable you are and what you 239 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: want to say, and no one should criticize you for, 240 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: you know, dressing in a bikini or dressing in a big, 241 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: baggy sweatsuit. But if you dressed in bikini, you're still 242 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: going to get the same criticism you've got twenty years ago. 243 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: You're still going to be on the tabloids with whatever 244 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: yucky words. And being in the public eye that much 245 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: at such a young age. I cannot imagine. I mean, 246 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: I was just in my little middle school of fifty 247 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: kids or whatever and was terrified of, like wearing anything 248 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: slightly form fitting. So I can't imagine what it's like 249 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: for Billie eilish Um. And I respect that she's like, okay, yeah, 250 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: I think it was. She was waiting to turn eighteen 251 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: to do that. I think I remember according to the media, 252 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: which who knows, she might have offhand just said something, 253 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: but I remember some quote was circulating like when I 254 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: turned eighteen, I'm gonna, you know, express the right to 255 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: show off my body if I feel like it. And 256 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: I think that's a good message. But it's like I said, 257 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: even if kids feel empowered from that, they're still going 258 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: to get that feedback in their social circles or whatever. 259 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: Oh look how Sally's dressing today. She must be trying 260 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: to do or be whatever, you know, be part of 261 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: the popular girls or something, you know, like she's trying 262 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: to impress someone or so especially now with social media, 263 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: which is a megaphone too look at me, criticize me, 264 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: look at me. It's so scary. Yeah. Absolutely, um, And 265 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: it's hard to you can't take out so many other threads, 266 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: like it's great to say, yeah, sure, where what you 267 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: want to exercise? You're right, but there's yeah, there's just 268 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: so much other things and messages we've already internalized that 269 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: maybe we don't realize we did, but we did. Um. 270 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: And perhaps one of the for a lot of girls, 271 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: those messages come from our mom's yeah. And so when 272 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: we were talking about what what should we discuss in 273 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: this episode, you suggested that the role of moms and 274 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: self esteem for girls and women. Yes, um and I 275 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: I thought that was a great topic because we've all 276 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: we've gone from it the other way, how we always 277 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: shame moms. But yeah, there's this other side. Um and 278 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: I found some surveys about this of women who said, yes, 279 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: I think about my body and my body image every day. 280 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: Forty six of those of those women said and it's 281 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: because I see my mom doing it. So this is 282 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: a we're seeing what are the women in our lives 283 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: are in this case moms are doing, and we're internalizing that. 284 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: And for me, um, my mom's really really great. But 285 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: she was a super thin woman who was always telling 286 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: me like, oh, I've got to lose weight or I 287 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: can only eat this because of this. And I definitely 288 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: took that in and I that became a thing of oh, 289 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: I need to be skinny. So how about for I 290 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: know you talked about a little bit in the show, 291 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: but if you could expand upon it here, certainly. Yeah. 292 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: So another thing I do is I volunteer at the 293 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: girls Rock camps. UM usually every summer, I do a 294 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: week and it's it's a camp where a group of 295 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: girls ages eight to sixteen. They get formed into little bands, 296 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: they write a song together, and they perform on stage. 297 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: But it's more about self esteem than anything. It doesn't 298 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: matter if they get up there and just go doo 299 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: doo doo, as long as they feel like like they're 300 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: owning it and they're happy with taking up space and 301 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: they're like ready to be up there. And so we 302 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: do a lot of workshops, self esteem kind of stuff, 303 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: and there's always a media workshop, and even these eight 304 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: year old girls start realizing, Oh, the reason like I 305 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: think this kind of outfit is cool or this thing 306 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: is more girly or boyish is because of what I 307 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: see on TV. And it's like very early feminist training 308 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: and it's great, but I never hear the role of 309 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: moms get talked about. And then my personal life, I 310 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: think my mom was way more influential and how I 311 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: think about my body and how I dress and everything 312 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: more than any media. And maybe the media influenced my 313 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: mom to feel that way about herself and she passed 314 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: it on to me. But even more so I think 315 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: her mom, you know, probably did that kind of thing 316 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: where her mom stood in the mirror and said I 317 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: need to lose weight, and maybe not said that directly 318 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: to her daughter, like you need to lose weight, but 319 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: you internalize that. And you know, I have a memory 320 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: of like maybe nine or ten years old, my mom 321 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: sitting on the couch with my mom and her looking 322 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: over at my face and saying like, oh, you have 323 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: two blackheads on your nose. Let me just squeeze those out. 324 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: And for all of middle school I looked like I 325 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: had horrible acne because I would just pick at my 326 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: face every spot I like, sometimes a freckle, it wasn't 327 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: even anything, and I would just dig and dig. And 328 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: it took like years of therapy to like try and 329 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: reverse that, and it's still a thing that happens. But 330 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 1: I don't think I would have thought about doing that 331 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: if I hadn't gotten that feedback. Um, I don't know 332 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: what else she could have done, maybe gone for a 333 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: facial with me or something, and it probably wasn't anything 334 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: anyone would notice. But she also, yeah, she criticize herself, 335 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: and you know, when she's eating, she'll say, oh, I 336 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: only want two bites of this, and I just want 337 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: to say like, oh, do you want an award for that? 338 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: But and it's it's sad now that I'm older to 339 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: see how like important that stuff is in her life. 340 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: And I've, you know, through my own sort of feminist community, 341 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: I've let go of a lot of that. But every 342 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: time I'm with her, it's just so blatant. And I 343 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: remember her saying stuff like, oh, ten more pounds and 344 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: you'll be perfect. And that word perfect, that idea that 345 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: you can be perfect is so toxic. And it's no 346 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: matter what company I'm in, no matter how much therapy 347 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: I do, I just want to like delete that that 348 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: idea of perfection. And that's one thing that it's really 349 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: hard to get rid of. And I don't know if 350 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: I ever will, and if I have kids someday, I'll 351 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: probably do the opposite. I'll be like, you can wear 352 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: a trash bag, just cool, like putting dirt all over 353 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: your face. It's great, whatever you want, you know. But yeah, 354 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: I hear a lot of Oh, it's the media, it's 355 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: the tabloids, it's the pictures of the skinny models. But 356 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: we don't talk about personal influences for body image very much. Yeah, 357 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: and um, it's a visious cycle because I was thinking 358 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: about this, and if you are in a society where 359 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: your value is your looks and your thinness and your youth, 360 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: it's really hard not to like to shake that off 361 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: for one and even if you do like that, that 362 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: doesn't mean everything around you is change. But then you 363 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: don't want to pass these messages on two young children. 364 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: But I just I understand. I can see how difficult 365 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: that is, and especially for some older generations where that 366 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: was just the thing, like they don't they aren't seeing 367 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: it the way that we're seeing it now that we've 368 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: had a lot of these conversations, and it's also just generational, 369 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: like each year things change, or each decade, each century, 370 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: things changed and expectations change. You know, from my parents 371 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: good thinking that the perfect life was having the kids 372 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: and having this and this is the structure, owning a 373 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: house and being this perfect unit to come a long 374 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: way and that's no longer necessarily the standard. But that 375 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: level of that was the guilt that I was getting 376 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: when I was growing up. Like my mother definitely would 377 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: talk about weight and such, but it wasn't such a 378 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: big deal in her head because she had kids like 379 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: multiple to concentrate on at all times and trying to 380 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: be frazzled. But her message to us was being the 381 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: perfect family, being the perfect mom, being the perfect provider 382 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: and what that looks like if you who don't have that, 383 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: what is your life about? What is the meaning of life? 384 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: And being a nanny when I was stopping and the 385 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: many jobs that I've done because of all um one 386 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: of the things that I would see. She loved her kids, 387 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: genuinely loved, loved and doated on her kids and was 388 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: a great mom. But what she would never say to 389 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: her kids, she would say to herself, which would be 390 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: I have to buy these pills. I can't eat today. 391 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: This is the only thing I could have today, Even 392 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: like posting pictures of herself and the way she poses 393 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: and what she thinks is important. The girl and the 394 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: kids all replicated what she did, but specifically, her daughter 395 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: was literally the spitting image at twelve, posing in however 396 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: you want to look at it, the way her mom did, 397 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: which was very sexy. And as an adult, you do 398 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: you you'd be sexy. That makes you feel good about yourself, 399 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Go ahead, you know. But because she as a ten 400 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: year old, saw that as the goal she tried to 401 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: grow up very quickly to become her mom, and that 402 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: standard was, oh no, what is it? And it's nothing 403 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: that the mom did because mom, like I said, let 404 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: her the kids be kids. It was just watching. And 405 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: it's this whole kind of standard of what have we 406 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: built on our own selves that we don't realize as 407 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: a toxic influence as you were saying on others, doesn't 408 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: even have to be. Although I did have the grandparents 409 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: tell me, oh are you thick? Are you eating? Like thanks, 410 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: I had a aunt Tommy, I should shop in the 411 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: maternity ard. Yeah, Like stuff like that were definitely the 412 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: backhanded ouch and you start really like I said, I 413 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: will never forget those either. Like I went as in prom, 414 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: I was wearing this fairly form fitting dress. I'm always 415 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: I've always been thick. It's not anything that's ever going 416 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: to change. And I'm I've accepted it and I love 417 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: that now. But the fact is I remember the woman, 418 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: older woman with me. You guys, you don't skip mills. 419 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: You got good, you got good, you got good birthing 420 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: hips though, yes, that's really old school. Yeah that's thanks. 421 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go, I know, drive yourself into him looking 422 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: at yourself too funnily but yeah, like you don't realize 423 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: how generational that is. But again, away from that, just 424 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: yours individual actions like you probably are could be the 425 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: most loving parents, but the you treat yourself as a 426 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 1: reflection on how they will treat themselves, that's your children. Yeah, definitely, 427 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: Like can we talk about breaking these things down? How 428 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: do we do this? And that's one more thing of 429 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: we got look at our own selves and talk about 430 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: the things that we are taking for granted in our 431 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: own lives and or putting ourselves in a place that's 432 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: on You can't meet those standards, you will never be, 433 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: as you said, perfect And why is it specifically to 434 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: women they need to be perfect? And of course the 435 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: definition changes from person to person, whether it's my family saying, 436 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, having a family that's perfection to a woman 437 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: saying the body of this is perfection when it could win. 438 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: Is it that we can actually let go of that's 439 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: the thing that we have to do, which, yeah, you 440 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: do talk about that, and I love it. You break 441 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: it down and you bring in good old music with 442 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: it on top of it. The classic pictures from youth, 443 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: they were so good. Oh I remember that stuff. I 444 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: would definitely show all my embarrassing pictures. I'm all for it. 445 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: Um and yeah, just to kind of put a note 446 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: on that, Another survey I found showed that young girls 447 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: don't feel like they can confide in their mothers about 448 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: the body image issues that they are having because they 449 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: see their mothers having it. So it's it's a self 450 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: perpetuating circle. It's very scary because social media does make 451 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: this worse. And eating disorders. The rates of eating disorders 452 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: have gone up in all age groups, and one clinic 453 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I found reported an increase of four of patients with 454 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: eating disorders in their thirties. So it doesn't go away, 455 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: it carries with you. Yeah. Yeah, So this is definitely 456 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: something we should I'll be mindful of when we're interacting 457 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: with children, um, the messages that we're sending, and we 458 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: might not even realize that they're absorbing, right right, right, Yeah, 459 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: that's one thing we're really focused on at Girls Rock Camp. There, 460 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: we say like there are no rules, but you always 461 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: say nice things to yourself in front of kids, and 462 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: you always say nice things two kids that aren't image based, 463 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: like wow, you're such a loving friend, or you're sharing 464 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: your guitar really nicely, or you seem really confident on stage. 465 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: Not your outfits so cute and you look so pretty today, 466 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: you know kind of stuff. We have a girl's rock 467 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: camp in Atlanta as well, and my friend, she was Haley, 468 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: she was up a big part of it. She was 469 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: fronted I think the directors though there's directors, okay, she was, 470 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: she was heading it up. I'm at that um and 471 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: I went to see the final show and man, those 472 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: shows get packed out and those kids get really into it. 473 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: They're actually really good. I'm like, yeah, I could have 474 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: never done developing and writing their own songs and coming 475 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: as a band and harmonizing together. I was like, yes, ladies, 476 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: do your thing. Do your thing. And I love that 477 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: organization because it does fosters so much a self esteem 478 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: but also teaches them, hey, cruel can rock, they can 479 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: play instruments that they can hold their own, and they 480 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: could be a band without a man or boy what 481 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: you can do whatever way you want to do. It 482 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: is wacky and weird as it sounds, that's great, you know, yeah, 483 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: you know, mentioning that they play on a stage in 484 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: front of like two hundred or three hundred people, at 485 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: these concerts and it's just like radical, amazing support for them. 486 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: Um just everyone's cheering them on the whole time. That's 487 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: so awesome. But it's this one little moment. And think 488 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: about you know, all these kids have Instagrams, they have TikTok's, 489 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: how many thousands and thousands of people are seeing them 490 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: a day and potentially commenting on them on their selfies 491 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: or whatever. And even if they're not writing negative comments, 492 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: just the kid knowing that their body is being seen 493 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: by this many people. So like just having a space 494 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: where they know they're going to get support and and 495 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: love and you're doing great. I don't know if it 496 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: can overcome all of that stuff that's on the internet, 497 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: but it helps a little bit. Also, they get that 498 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: moment of being a star like they are on stage, 499 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: whether like that would make me probably pee my pants, 500 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: to be honest, but they get to actually be in 501 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: the spotlight and and showcase their talent. That's a beautiful moment. 502 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: And how how much are you gonna remember that? Hopefully fondly, 503 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: but you'll remember that forever And what a great experience 504 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: for that. Yeah, just that feeling. It's so rare in 505 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: our lives. Where we have a feeling that like, no 506 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: matter what I do or say or how I dress 507 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: right now, it's going to be okay with everyone around me, 508 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: unless you're around very close friends. And even sometimes then 509 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: you can say one thing in front of one friend 510 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: and something else in front of another friend and you 511 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: don't know if the whole group is going to support you. 512 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: So it's just that, yeah, beautiful support. We love it. 513 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: We have a lot more in our discussion with Chelsea, 514 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for a word 515 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:14,239 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Now 516 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: back into the interview. I was researching into female musicians 517 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: and this kind of surprised me, even though I guess 518 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: it shouldn't have. But they said it's like more of 519 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: a masculine because it is sometimes physical, like the hinting 520 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: of the drums or so it's so important for for 521 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: your young girls to see people women and girls doing this, 522 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: So that's super valuable. And I also wanted to pick 523 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: up on something because earlier you said you really wanted 524 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: no one to notice, You really want to be invisible, 525 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: but you also had this desire to be famous and 526 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: be in the spolight bands. So can you talk about 527 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: that and sort of the role music play. So I 528 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 1: think I did want to be on stage and I 529 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: wanted to perform, and I felt like at the time, 530 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: I thought, I'm just not cool enough, skinny enough, pretty 531 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: enough whatever to be in the public eye. Like once 532 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: I fixed all those things about myself and then I'll 533 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: do it. So I don't think I really desired to 534 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: be invisible. It's just that I thought I had all 535 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: these things wrong with myself because of my mom and 536 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: whoever else. Um, So I think what I actually really 537 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: desired was to just be comfortable with myself. But I 538 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: didn't know that at the time. And now that I 539 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: am comfortable with myself, whether I'm performing for like three 540 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: friends or a hundred people, it feels awesome. But I 541 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: think if I had gotten up up on stage when 542 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: I was young and there were only like two people clapping, 543 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: I probably would have been like, I'm never going to 544 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: do this again. But yeah, I yeah, I just felt 545 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: like nothing about myself was was ready to be in public. 546 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: But I thought, once I you know, amazing at the base, 547 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: and I write these great songs and I'm better than 548 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: every boy in my whole school at playing so that 549 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: they can't say anything about me being good enough for 550 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: a girl or whatever. That's when I'll make my public debut. 551 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: But I just craved performing and playing. And I think 552 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: also part of me thought that that was a narcissistic 553 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: thing or a selfish thing, when it's just a human thing. 554 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's a normal thing. You want to be 555 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: part of a crowd, You want to be part of 556 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: other people caring about the same thing. All it's about, 557 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, even though you're the person on the stage, 558 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 1: it's about all sharing music together with the audience and 559 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: the other band members. So that's that's what I wanted. 560 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: I just didn't think I was ready. Right. Was just 561 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: such a conversation we've had about misogyny playing into our 562 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: females lives, thinking you have to be again exactly perfect 563 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: and have to go exceed the not only you to 564 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: be good, but you've got to be the best in 565 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: order to compete in order to be seen. And again, 566 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: it's such a thing that females and women we think 567 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: that's how it's done, this is how it should be, 568 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: this is what we're gonna We're not gonna qualify for 569 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: these things unless again, like you said, I have to 570 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: be so amazing they can't find one fault with me, 571 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: which is such a bs obviously looking back on you 572 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: like what, Yeah, and even today, I think we all 573 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: still struggle. I'm guessing with that idea of We've still 574 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: got to be perfect before we can do these things, 575 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: which is such an absurd conversation. But yeah, breaking down 576 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: with hey, a little girl, that's not true. How do 577 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: we We're going to talk about how that is not 578 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: true and you can push forward and practice in front 579 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: of people and not be perfect and it's going to 580 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: be beautiful whether now you believe it or not, even 581 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: though everything is always worse in our head. Oh yeah. 582 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: And part of that too is not having role models. 583 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: Like I didn't see any women in like I don't 584 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: know local bands or are women that looked not perfectly 585 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: put together. You know. All I saw was like Gwen Stefani. 586 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: That was it. That was the only current female rock 587 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: star I knew of. And she looks perfect. She is 588 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: like ripped and gorgeous and writes these amazing songs and 589 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: whatever else and is a mom and blah blah blah blah, 590 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: and that's it. I was like, Okay, so I have 591 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: to be like Gwen Stefani or that's that's the only 592 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: in the story. Do you have to be Gwin Stefani, 593 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: But you have to be surrounded by all the men's 594 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: to be taken legitimately because individually, if she had, I'm 595 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: guessing you don't see too many all girl bands, or 596 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: you didn't see too many. I mean, there was definitely 597 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: some out there, we know, but their novelty of being 598 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: all girl band was such a bigger part sometimes than 599 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: their music. But that which is unfortunate because they were amazing, 600 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: the Bengals. I still love them, right, I just hated 601 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: myself a little more, but they hear a phenomenal group 602 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: and I still love listening to what some of them 603 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: do individually. You know. It's just unfortunately, that's the level 604 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: that we have to get to, Like, all right, when 605 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: do we take women seriously in this industry? And is 606 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: it when they look like the perfect pixie manic girl 607 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: who can be both okay for the men to except 608 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: as well as women to accept. Right, you have to 609 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: be this special shooting star. And you know, I think 610 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's is also the perfectly wrong time 611 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: for me to come of age because I missed the 612 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: Riot Girls stuff in the nineties. I mean you had 613 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: bikini killing Riot Girl going on, but also just the 614 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: regular like Billboard rock charts. The stuff that was playing 615 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: on the radio was Atlantis Morris Set, and it was 616 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, a bunch of other women with guitars, whole whatever, 617 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, all different shades of women playing rock music. 618 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: And it was like probably half or more of the 619 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: Billboard chart. I looked us up at one point, but 620 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: it was like the Billboard Rock Chart, like at least 621 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: half of it were songs written by women. Um. And 622 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, it was like there's Britney Spears, 623 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: there's Christina Aguilera. Rock bands there wasn't much going on period. 624 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: I mean, there was kind of this nineties revival thing 625 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: and that turned into emo, like the Hives and the 626 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: Vines and stuff. So there were some rock bands, but 627 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: pop was way bigger. And it's it's as if that 628 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: whole idea that like rock was going to be really 629 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: equal after the nineties, it just disappeared and I didn't 630 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: hear about it. All I knew about Courtney Love was 631 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: that she was the crazy, evil person that somehow killed 632 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: Kurt Kobe, and I didn't even know. I assumed her 633 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: band was terrible, like never listened to a whole song. 634 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: None of the guys in my band. They were like, 635 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: oh yeah, holes, like cheesy and stupid, and we'd like 636 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: kind of make fun of their songs sometimes. And I 637 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: fell in love with those albums later. But I loved 638 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: Nirvana and it was like, yeah, I bet Cortney loves 639 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: like And I mean, oh, she's done a lot of 640 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: problematic stuff, not saying she's saying, but at least she 641 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: was a woman playing a guitar in the public eye, 642 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: and there wasn't much of that when I was growing up, 643 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: and she was definitely demoniced. You're right, absolutely beyond that time, probably, 644 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: which is right. Her only role had to do with 645 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: her husband's band, you know, never mind all this stuff 646 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: she produced herself. And her songs are good. I'm thinking 647 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: of singing them in my head. We're talking. I'm like, 648 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: oh yeah, agot about that band. And then her songwriting 649 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: was attributed to Cobaine too. They said, oh, he wrote 650 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: all her good songs she didn't, you know, which is hilarious. 651 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: You gotta love the conspiracy theories about there's no way 652 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 1: a woman did this if it's yeah, she definitely one right. Yeah, 653 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: that's a lot of hard work. I mean getting away 654 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: with murder on that scale. Like even if she did that, 655 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: she would be pretty smart. We really don't dress the 656 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: women we don't know. No, cool, cool, cool. I've been 657 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: thinking about that a lot lately. Um, well, so you 658 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: in the podcast you detail your band was you were 659 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: the only girl in in your first several bands. Oh yeah, 660 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: I was the only girl like in my school district. 661 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: But I knew of that played anything right, And because 662 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: this is a coming of age story, we might say 663 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: there there was all this kind of like drama dating 664 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: and yeah, can you can you talk a little bit 665 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: about that? And how do you think that sort of 666 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: impacted Oh yeah, it ruined things. And I think a 667 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: lot of women who started playing music young win through 668 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: this two in their first bands. You're just you're them 669 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: anich Pixie dream girl, because I mean I had really 670 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: bad social anxiety and as a nerdy, socially anxious person, 671 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: like I had my things I was nerdy about, and 672 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: I could talk to people about those things and that 673 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: was it. Like I didn't have social skills, but I 674 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: could be like this guitar has those kind of pickups, 675 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: and I know this album was recorded in Electric Lady 676 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 1: Land studios. Like I could nerd about music and there 677 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: weren't other girls that could do that. So I was 678 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: seen as like this amazing whatever by the boys in 679 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: my band, and they just immediately fell in love with me. 680 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: And when I started, when I joined my first band, 681 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: the leader of the band said absolutely no band dating, 682 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: but he quit, and as soon as he quit, the 683 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: other two boys in the band were like ready, and 684 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: they both kind of tricked me into dating them, the 685 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: first one. And I hate how common this is and 686 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: I hate it. Um. You know, my mom taught me 687 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: a little bit of about consent. You know, say no 688 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: if you're not comfortable, but it's a lot more complicated 689 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: in real life. She was just kind of like saying no. 690 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,919 Speaker 1: I always say no, but you're trying to be cool 691 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: as a teenager, you know, you don't want to just 692 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: be like no, go away. And I had my first 693 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: band and this was my whole entire social life, so 694 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: I didn't want to mess it up. So we went 695 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: to me and my band went to the little like 696 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: town fair together and I wanted to ride the Ferris Wheel, 697 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: and I didn't have enough tickets, and some of my 698 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: other friends had tickets, and they were like, oh, if 699 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: you kiss the drummer, we'll give you a ticket. And 700 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 1: I was really self conscious because I had never kissed anyone, 701 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: and I didn't want anyone to know that because like 702 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: a prude at fifteen and so embarrassing. So I was like, sure, 703 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: i'll kiss him, but yeah, I can be cool. So 704 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: I did, and I hated it, and I got the ticket. 705 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: And then after that, everywhere I went he was holding 706 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: my hand and kissing me in the halls, and I 707 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I have a boyfriend now, but if 708 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: I dumped him, my entire social life, work on my 709 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: band will be broken up. Like I could sense the 710 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: tension between the two boys because they both liked me, 711 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: and no one explicitly said any of this because we're teenagers, 712 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: but I knew if I messed it up but by band, 713 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't think i'd ever have the confidence to 714 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 1: find another band. So and then once I finally dumped 715 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: the first one, the second one said go out with me, 716 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: or I'll break up the band and never talk to 717 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 1: you again. So I had two boyfriends and I wasn't 718 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: that excited about but I tried to make it work 719 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: and I was like, Okay, now I'm a little bit 720 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: cool because I have a boyfriend, but did I want one? 721 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: Not really? So yeah, it is unfortunate because like on 722 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: a grander scheme, we still see things like that with 723 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: adult women right where you're like, oh, yeah, I'm dating 724 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: this guy, are the band or I'm out all right, 725 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: like my chances are gone? That's really unfortunate. What's your story? 726 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: Where do I begin it? Is? I had a very 727 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: similar experience where one day I was just dating some 728 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: guy and I never said we were dating, right, And 729 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: you're like, when did I say yes? Or was I 730 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: really not given a chance? Yeah? Yeah, and we're just 731 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: together now and I had no idea what this was happening. 732 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: But then everyone's like, you've got to go stay with 733 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: your boyfriend. What I actually through this podcast, I've had 734 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: a really interesting experience of learning that I am a 735 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: sexual and my bands. Oh my my hit song that 736 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: I wrote was called I Don't Believe in Love and 737 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: I only now just put together like maybe I was 738 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: onto something and I wasn't just being super Maybe I 739 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: was sensing it, but unfortunately my band, even though it 740 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: was not very good, it and whatever, it broke apart 741 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: because I knew there was this expectation with one of 742 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: the other members that we would date, and I was like, 743 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: I don't even want to be around this, right, So 744 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's upsetting to think of lost opportunities or 745 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: what non consensual things have happened. Well, I mean, again, 746 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: this is kind of as you're talking about reflecting. This 747 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: is again another conversation about how we are taught at 748 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: a very young age that we can't say no, and 749 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: it's impolite to say no, and it's impolite to not 750 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, just go with the flow, and that it's 751 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: okay for people to force their wills on people and 752 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: as long as they don't actually cry out no, then 753 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: they're in the right. You know. It is one more 754 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: conversation of like why we gotta we gotta break these 755 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: things down because again you're yeah, you're talking about the 756 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: fact that you were in a position where you were 757 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: the unicorn essentially and being the girl that knows music, 758 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: which there are a lot of those out there comics 759 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: like oh she's in a comic r. Now this is 760 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: your criterion yes, yes, in the story, but yeah, but 761 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: that's that conversation of why is this these expectations so 762 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: pigeonholing people into you have to be if you're like this, 763 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: this means this is what it means for you, and 764 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: this is the future you have, whether you want it 765 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: or not. And you should not be able to say 766 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: no because you've got to be polite. We've accepted you 767 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: in two hour and sometimes, like we were just talking about, 768 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: they figure out ways where there's no opportunity to say no, 769 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: and you feel like you'll be once again the crazy 770 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: girl if you force your opinion, your natural right to 771 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: say no. But if if it's not in there, and 772 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: you're trying to be a cool teenager, be like I'm 773 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: not a prude, then that social influence goes so far. 774 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,439 Speaker 1: No matter what our parents or teachers, you know, best 775 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: intentions trying to explain consent to us. It doesn't happen 776 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: like that the first few times when you're really young, 777 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 1: you don't see things as black and white. But looking 778 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: back on that now and like I should have just 779 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: punched him in the nose. At the time, nothing absolutely 780 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: nothing mattered more than like social currency. That was it, 781 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: and so I would have. Yeah. I mean, luckily they 782 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: were nice enough. I just had some like goofy trips 783 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,760 Speaker 1: to the movies and the diner and whatever. It wasn't 784 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: like a huge No one was trying to like marry 785 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: me whatever, you know. But I didn't want to spend 786 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: my time doing that, and I wanted to be in 787 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: my room just playing bass or you know, meet a 788 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: girl who also played music. That would have been amazing. 789 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: And I know there's so many others there were and 790 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,720 Speaker 1: still are so many others alone in their rooms feeling 791 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: the same way. And that's kind of the goal of 792 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: my podcast is to get people to feel like, oh, 793 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: this thing that I thought only I went through or 794 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: I went through worse than an anyone else. So many 795 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: of us went through it. We were just at different 796 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: high schools or whatever. You know. Yeah, and I love 797 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: how you break that down of it's confusing when someone said, oh, yes, 798 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: if you make out this dude, which is a cool 799 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: thing to do, uh, we will get the ticket. And 800 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: it's just like so many factors coming in of I 801 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: don't want people to know that I have never kissed somewhere, 802 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: and then I don't want them to think I'm not cool, 803 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 1: and then it's just a lot more complex than oh yeah, 804 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: don't do that, kid, um And I think that's really 805 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: important for kids to know to hear these stories, these 806 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: really honest takes of what was going through your head 807 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: at that time and why it happened at all, and 808 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: like because that you don't necessarily understand all those things 809 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: until you look back, but you do know there's this confusing, 810 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: weird all this weirdness around it. Um. So I think 811 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,839 Speaker 1: that's super important as a kid. I wish I had 812 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: had something like right, and I think, yeah, I love 813 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: the fact that you are having these conversations and putting 814 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: this out there because it's teaching goods. Is teaching young people, shoot, 815 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: probably teaching adults you can say no? And what does 816 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: that look like to be able to say no even 817 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: though you feel like you don't get that choice, because again, 818 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: we are oftentimes pushed to a corner and being not 819 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: given that choice and feeling like, oh, well, I gotta 820 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: do this if I want to be a B or C, 821 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: a D. And to actually have them being like, hey, no, 822 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: you actually can't say no and it's okay. And by 823 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: the way, you're probably not the only one that wishes 824 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: or wants to say no or just get off me, 825 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: get away from me, right and it still happens. I 826 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: mentioned this in a in an episode. I got tricked 827 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: into being on a date not that long ago, less 828 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: than a year ago. You do so sorry to hear that. 829 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: It's always like, oh, I feel you. I'm so sorry 830 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,879 Speaker 1: that you've also been through that. But it's once again, 831 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: so good to not be alone and yucky, yucky things happen. 832 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I went to uh see a band play 833 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: and I was friends with the bass player. Um, and 834 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: so he, you know, put me on the guest list, 835 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: like at a really big club. But I had no 836 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 1: friends to go with me, went by myself. Whatever. I 837 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,919 Speaker 1: was watching the show and there are two dudes next 838 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: to me and they're like, oh, you like this band. 839 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, I know the bass player. And 840 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 1: we just talked about music. That's it. We talked about 841 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: nerdy guitar stuff, recording equipment like editing software, the most 842 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 1: you know, not flirtatious conversation. Ever, no one asked me 843 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: if I had a boyfriend. There was no talk of 844 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: like dating. No one even tried to figure out if 845 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: I was straight whatever. And then they, you know, this 846 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: group of guys was like, let's get a beer afterwards, 847 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, sure, I have nothing to do, 848 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: and they seem nerdy and maybe it would be a 849 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,120 Speaker 1: good like networking connection, like their audio people too. And 850 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: we get to the bar and suddenly, I don't know what, 851 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: like spaceship. The other people took off in but I'm 852 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,799 Speaker 1: alone with this one guy and I just looked at him, 853 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,760 Speaker 1: and he looked at me because he was totally taken 854 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,680 Speaker 1: aback to he I don't think he was in on 855 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: this planet. He seemed like kind of pissed, and he 856 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: was like, we don't have to get a drink if 857 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,319 Speaker 1: you don't want to. But it was just weird in 858 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 1: the you know, the people at the bar are like, oh, 859 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,719 Speaker 1: you can sit here together or whatever. I'm like, no, 860 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm not on a date. And I was like, I 861 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: live with someone, I can't be on a date with you. 862 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: What just and it was just confusing. I probably said 863 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: really confusing things to him too, And again I felt 864 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: like that fifteen year old where my brain just couldn't 865 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: compute what happened. I didn't know what to say I 866 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: did and I didn't want to just shout no, no, no, 867 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: but I like mumbled a bunch of stuff and then 868 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: went home and I was like, I'm an adult. These 869 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: other people were adults too. How is this still a 870 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: thing that happened? Yeah, I because of this show and 871 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,719 Speaker 1: recently in therapy, so I've only been in therapy from 872 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: like one year, and thank you. One thing that I've 873 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: realized has really severely impacted me is that kind of 874 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: thing where what I immediately do is I'm like, what 875 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: did I What kind of signal did I? Where did 876 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,839 Speaker 1: I go wrong? And then I feel horribly guilty about Okay, well, 877 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: now I've got to hurt this person's feeling and I 878 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: didn't know this was a whole thing, And then it 879 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,760 Speaker 1: makes me not trust anyone else because they couldn't possibly 880 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 1: just want to talk to me. It's like, well, we're 881 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,680 Speaker 1: gonna have sex or we're gonna date, like and it's 882 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,439 Speaker 1: just completely eroded my sense of trust. And it's it's 883 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: really I didn't understand how deeply that that has impacted 884 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: me to this day. So yeah, that's another It's it 885 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: sounds so like seemingly innocent enough because I think you 886 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: said in that episode, surely the friends were just they 887 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 1: thought they were doing their friends of solid or whatever. Yeah, 888 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 1: but we need to think about the implications and repercussions 889 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 1: of those kinds of things. Yeah, and who knows, They 890 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: don't know what my experience could have been. Maybe I 891 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: had been through something similar that turned out really badly 892 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 1: and dangerously before, Like just leaving a woman alone with 893 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 1: a strange man is never good, like that could lead 894 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: to even if they were somehow magically knew they were 895 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: all wonderful people, like, yeah, that's not cool. That's not 896 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: for you to decide the friends to decide whether or 897 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: not they should be together or whatever whatnot. And I 898 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: think this is also again, it's a similar conversation of 899 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: all of these things that are built up in society 900 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: and the things that you could experience and continue to 901 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: experience today. I mean, I'm with you. I haven't been 902 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 1: on accidental days, so I don't understand that person. I 903 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,400 Speaker 1: think I'm a very very very awkward person that I 904 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: have the resting bitch face. So that does really well 905 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: for me. Um. But the fact that you know all 906 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: of these conversations is just the whole again, freedom to 907 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 1: be your own person and what that looks like and 908 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: trying to establish as a child, because that's what we're doing, 909 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,320 Speaker 1: is growing up, trying to figure out what are my values, 910 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: what are my abilities to control what's in my life? 911 00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: And and as we know, for the longest time, children 912 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,319 Speaker 1: were not allowed to be in control and and oftentimes 913 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: told these are the things you're gonna be do you 914 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,839 Speaker 1: gotta listen, don't talk back, just go with it, um 915 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: And I know this makes a lot of sense. And 916 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: there's the thing about respect. We can talk about that 917 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: and you know, be raising a child to be appropriate 918 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: and all of these things. But for the longest time, 919 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 1: for our generation, your generation and my generation, because we're 920 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,239 Speaker 1: a little different off, we're having to unlearn some of 921 00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: these toxic ideas of our autonomy. And we see that again. 922 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,399 Speaker 1: I love that you're talking about it now because that's 923 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: still a problem. That still can be a problem for sure. 924 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: And again there's a difference between teaching them respect and 925 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: teaching them you know, kindness and empathy versus teaching them 926 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, being controlled and being allowed to be controlled. 927 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 1: And I think that's a huge conversation that especially women, 928 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: especially in women who are interested in music in the 929 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: in the field that is dominated by men were interested 930 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:34,399 Speaker 1: in like the comedy comedy scene, but like cosplay and all. 931 00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 1: What does that look like when it's been you know, 932 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: manned by men literally, And so what does that look 933 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: like when we're teaching ourselves and teaching the generations younger 934 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,760 Speaker 1: than us, younger generations of this is what it looks 935 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: like to be able to again have an autonomous opinion 936 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 1: and being able to care for yourself and being able 937 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,800 Speaker 1: to control the environment around you to keep yourself safe. 938 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: And that's a big versation and I love that that's 939 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:06,439 Speaker 1: what you are teaching as well. Yeah, it has been. 940 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 1: I will say one of the most rewarding things for me, 941 00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: beyond connecting with all of the women and girls that listen, 942 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,919 Speaker 1: is some male friends in my life have said, I've 943 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: never considered what it like when I asked you to 944 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: go do something with me. I just don't have the 945 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: same level of it. Was somebody um who was saying 946 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,520 Speaker 1: when we first met, he invited me to go see 947 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: a movie with him and he said, oh, I've never 948 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,399 Speaker 1: considered that for you. That wasn't a simple oh yes 949 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: I want to go, like there was all of this 950 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: other stuff. Yes, and if it is like, am I safe? Like? 951 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,919 Speaker 1: Am I safe? Right? Um? So that has been really 952 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: rewarding as well. And I think as we have these 953 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 1: conversations with the younger generation, hopefully we're all I think 954 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,680 Speaker 1: it's a lot of unlearning, unlearning for both and all 955 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 1: all of the genders, all of you know, all the conversations, 956 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,479 Speaker 1: all the generations talking about we have to unlearn a 957 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:13,319 Speaker 1: lot of toxic Yeah. True, true. We do have some 958 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,840 Speaker 1: more for you listeners, but first we have one more 959 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:31,200 Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back. 960 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,239 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into it. I would 961 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,360 Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts on maybe that's part of 962 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,920 Speaker 1: that power of music four girls and women and what 963 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,920 Speaker 1: ways it can interact with feminism and activism. Yeah, power 964 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: of music, it's so powerful. I mean, well, there's the 965 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:56,319 Speaker 1: public political version of that, and there's the personal version 966 00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: of that, which is what I mostly focus on in 967 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 1: my own work, because I think playing music or any 968 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,760 Speaker 1: creative outlet, especially any creative outlet where you can combine 969 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,600 Speaker 1: like a physical action, you know, writing too, I guess 970 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,240 Speaker 1: that's not as physical, but any creative outlet I think 971 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 1: is um one of just the best things you can 972 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: do for any mental health issues. UM. And I I 973 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 1: think medicine and therapy have gone a long way for me, 974 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 1: But if those things disappeared, I think music is and 975 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: before I had those things, music was was everything for 976 00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: me in that regard. UM, because you can express yourself 977 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: or you can just play along with a song and 978 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,880 Speaker 1: feel like because when we're going through mental health things, 979 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,000 Speaker 1: it sometimes it feels like it's never gonna end, and 980 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,759 Speaker 1: everything is just so confusing up and down. You don't 981 00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,400 Speaker 1: know which of your thoughts you would believe, etcetera. You 982 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: have no structure. It kind of feels like the floor 983 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,319 Speaker 1: crumbles out from under you and you don't know where 984 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: you're you're going to drift off into outer space. But 985 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 1: when you're playing a song, you have a rhythm, you 986 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,719 Speaker 1: have a tempo, you have chord changes to follow, you 987 00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: have a structure, You know what you're supposed to be doing, 988 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: and you can add your own creative experimentation to that. 989 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: Or you can just play a G E. Whatever and 990 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 1: play along. And so just feeling secure in a three 991 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 1: minute song or listening to an album and knowing what 992 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,319 Speaker 1: songs are going to come next, UH can do so 993 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,759 Speaker 1: much and for other people, you know, they have different things, 994 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,960 Speaker 1: whether it's um comedy, whether it's playing dungeons and dragons 995 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,279 Speaker 1: or LARPing, whatever it is, whenever you can create this 996 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: own little world for yourself and feel powerful and secure 997 00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:59,400 Speaker 1: and in control, like, that's what that's what will eventually 998 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,960 Speaker 1: change the world is people finding their own security and 999 00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,520 Speaker 1: power in whatever it is they do. And for me, 1000 00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,040 Speaker 1: that's absolutely music. And then it takes the personal into 1001 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: the political and the global. So it's beautiful. It is 1002 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: that I love that I do too, So thank you 1003 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: so much again for being here, and thank you for 1004 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,439 Speaker 1: what you and being open and being so personal because 1005 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,160 Speaker 1: it takes a lot, so that vulnerability is beautiful, So 1006 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: thank you for doing that. Yeah, thank you both for 1007 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,000 Speaker 1: doing what you do too. Thank you, thank you, thank you, 1008 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:39,439 Speaker 1: thank you. Where can the listeners find you? Yeah, So, 1009 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,120 Speaker 1: Dear Young Rocker is available wherever you get your podcasts, 1010 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,120 Speaker 1: and my band Banana is also on band camp. Um 1011 00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,680 Speaker 1: it's a grunge kind of band if you're into that, 1012 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 1: and we play around Boston all the time. And there's 1013 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 1: more info about me and what I do at der 1014 00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,760 Speaker 1: Young Rocker dot com, so go check that out. Um, anyone. 1015 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: When we're in Boston, we'll meet up, we'll meet done. 1016 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: We would have to catch a show too, for sure, 1017 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:11,760 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Well, thank you again for being here. Um 1018 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,800 Speaker 1: if you would like to email us, oh my gosh, 1019 00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,600 Speaker 1: you can. Our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at 1020 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,720 Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can also find us on 1021 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,160 Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff 1022 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to your superproducer 1023 00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,720 Speaker 1: Andrew Howard, who also rocks. He does rock, and thanks 1024 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. The 1025 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my 1026 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 1027 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows