1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Me and M, 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: the British modern luxury clothing label designed for busy women. 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: Founded and designed in London. Me and M is about 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: intelligence style. Much thought and care are put into the 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: design process, so every piece is flattering, functional and made 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: to last forever. Me and M is well known for 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: its trousers and how I got to know the brand. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: It's my go to for styles that are comfortable enough 9 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: to wear in the kitchen or the restaurant, also polished 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: enough for meetings. Me and M is available online and 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: its stores across London, Edinburgh, New York. If you're in London, 12 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: I'd really recommend heading to their beautiful, brand new flagship 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: store in Marlevin, which opens on the twenty ninth of October. 14 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: In the thirty four years at Adam Gopnik and I 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: have been friends. We have lived in the same city, Paris, 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: where he wrote his beautiful book Paris to the Moon. 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: We have loved and then lost our best friend, the 18 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: art historian and curator Kirk Varnado. We've taken care of 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: each other's children as if they were our own, and 20 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: sung show tunes together from every Broadway musical Because we know. 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: All the lyrics. 22 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Most of all, we have never stopped cooking, eating, and 23 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: talking about our passion for food. We may be separated 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: by an ocean, but we are always minutes and inches 25 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: away all the while. Adam leads a terrific life in writing, 26 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: staff writer for The New Yorker and author of nine 27 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: books of non fiction, fiction and memoir. Next year he 28 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: will perform his one man show Talk Therapy in New 29 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: York City. Adam is here now with me in London. 30 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: In four days, He's eaten in the River Cafe four times. 31 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: This morning we sang You've. 32 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: Got to be taught from South Pacific, Rainbow Connection, from 33 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: the Muppets, and I've never been in love before from 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: Guys and Dolls. Tonight, after seeing Giant at the Royal Court, 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: we will go home and cook to Btapasta my definition 36 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,639 Speaker 1: of a good friend. Thank you, sir Adam. You've chosen 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: the recipe and it was from the very first cookbook 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: we ever did, the River Cafe Cookbook, and the recipe 39 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: you chose was Penny with quick sausage sauce. 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: Would you like to read it? 41 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 4: I would love to read it, and I should ad 42 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 4: that this is part of a diptick, as our historians 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 4: would say, with a penny with a slow sausage sauce, 44 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 4: So that is why it's quick. Two hundred fifty grams 45 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 4: of penny regatta, two tablespoons of olive oil, two red onions, 46 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 4: peeled and chopped, five sausages, meat crumbled, half a tablespoon 47 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 4: of fresh rosemary, two small dried chilis, eight hundred grams 48 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 4: of peeled plum tomatoes, one hundred and fifty mili liters 49 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 4: of cream, and one hundred and twenty grams of parmesan, 50 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 4: freshly grated. You heat the olive oil in the saucepan 51 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 4: and you fry the onion lightly. You add the sausage, rosemary, 52 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 4: bay leaves and chili all together, frying them over a 53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 4: high heat, stirring to mash the sausages. You remove all 54 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 4: but one tablespoon of the fat and continue you to 55 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 4: cook for twenty minutes. Add the tomatoes, stir and return. 56 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: To the boil. 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 4: Then remove from the heat. Cook the penne in boiling 58 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 4: salted water, then drain and add directly to the sauce. 59 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: Stir the cream into the sauce with the penny and 60 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 4: half the parmesan, and then you serve the pustup with 61 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: the remaining parmesan grated on top. 62 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: When I asked you for a recipe that you'd like 63 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: to read Ruthie's Table four, you immediately said, I know 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: exactly what I. 65 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: Want to do. 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: I want to do the penne with quick sausage sauce. 67 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: And I was wondering why. 68 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 4: Well, because it was nineteen ninety four, we had just 69 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: moved to Paris, my wife Martha and our little son 70 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 4: Luke had just moved to Paris then, and we got 71 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 4: your book, and by the strangest kind of syncopated cooking beat, 72 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 4: I started cooking your food in our Parisian kitchen, although 73 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 4: I had been raised on French food, and there was 74 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 4: something about the logic and grammar of this recipe that 75 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 4: was inspiring and explained so much. In other words, you 76 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 4: were taking the pungent things, the sweet onions, and then 77 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 4: the pungent sausages, and the hot pepper which I had 78 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 4: never cooked with before, the dried parakeet peppers, and making 79 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 4: all of that. Then you were reducing it with the 80 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 4: wine and then adding the tomatoes, and that basic pattern, right, 81 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: you have and it can be anchovies and. 82 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: Garblic, get the flavor tomato right, then cook. 83 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 4: It down with wine until it's almost dry, and then 84 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 4: adding tomatoes, and then doing that. How many times in 85 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 4: a lifetime do we do that? And that basic grammar, 86 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 4: the savory flavors, the wine reduction, the addition of tomato 87 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 4: or cream or whatever it might be, is somehow so fundamental. 88 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: It was like this for me was a foundational recipe. 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 4: Once I knew how to do this, I felt that 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 4: I could do almost anything. So that's why I love 91 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 4: it so much, even though, to be honest with you, 92 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 4: I probably couldn't, so to speak, sell it at my 93 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 4: dining table today because the ladies I cook for, Martha 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 4: and Olivia are both pescatarians at this point. 95 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I couldn't. But do you ever have it? 96 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: Make it for yourself? 97 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: I always make it for myself. 98 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 4: When I'm alone, I either make this or the matriciana 99 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 4: as Mike. 100 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: Can you get the Lucunega sausages in New York? 101 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: You can get good sausages. 102 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 4: You get good Italian sausages in New York, But those 103 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 4: are when I'm home alone. 104 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: That's what I make for myself. 105 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: So you've written just written a brilliant piece about the election. 106 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: You've written about the politics of our country. You've written 107 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: about Paris, You've written and yet you are uniquely interested, 108 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: I think, in writing and writing about food, and so 109 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: food comes into your musical. I mean, there aren't very 110 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: many musicals about a restaurant. There aren't very many articles 111 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: in the New Yorker. Well, now there are a few 112 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: more about food. Tell us about one of your books 113 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,559 Speaker 1: that you've written where food has come into your book. 114 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 4: I wrote an entire book just about the philosophy of 115 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 4: eating called The Table Comes First, which was the title 116 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 4: was given to me by our friend Burkus of Saint 117 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 4: John because we were having elevenses once and he said, 118 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 4: genuine he was genuinely perturbed. He said, there is this 119 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 4: young couple I know, he said, and they just getting 120 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 4: married and they want to buy a bed. Said, don't 121 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 4: they know the table comes first. They're having a bed 122 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 4: but no table. And I thought, oh, what a beautiful thought. 123 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 4: The table comes first. It's the altar in the raft 124 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 4: of human existence. So for me, my fascination with food 125 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 4: I think comes from two you know, sharply opposed places. 126 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 4: On the one end, just pure read I love to eat, 127 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 4: and I. 128 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: See funny that greed comes into food. I have a 129 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: friend who had a nanny and she overheard her child 130 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: who said, I'd want, you know, a biscuit. She'd eaten 131 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: like five biscuits, and she heard the nanny saying, you know, 132 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: you're a greedy. 133 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 3: Little girl, and she fired her good. 134 00:06:58,320 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: She fired it right on the spot. 135 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: She said, you know what, I don't want somebody telling 136 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: my child that because they want more food, that they're greedy. 137 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: And for me, as an American and maybe that's something different, 138 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: is that greediness always meant that you want more money. 139 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting the idea of sort of 140 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: what greedy being involved in dispense. 141 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 4: One of the ways in which French culinary culture is 142 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: superior to any other is, you know, you use the 143 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 4: word gourmand to mean greedy, and when you saymond, you mean, oh, 144 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: he really loves to eat. And the French word gourmet, 145 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 4: which Americans and Brits have adapted, French folks don't really 146 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 4: use very much. You wouldn't say somebody's a gourmet unless. 147 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: They were an American. 148 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 4: But gourmand, yeah, though, it means greedy, and that sense 149 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 4: is a totally positive benediction. Tenon you know means really 150 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 4: loves food. So that's one part of my fascination with food. 151 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: I can't remember many musicals that I've seen they have 152 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: restaurants scenes. I've interviewed actors who actually had to cook 153 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: on or eat on stage, or food is a part 154 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: of the drama. But you've actually created a musical about 155 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: a restaurant called Our Table. 156 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about it? 157 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: I'd love to. 158 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: I wrote it with the great Broadway composer David Shire, 159 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 4: and it was inspired not so much by my book 160 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 4: about cooking, but out of a piece I wrote right 161 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 4: after nine to eleven about a cook's contest, and I 162 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: was inspired by the two chefs, particularly Peter Hoffman, who 163 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 4: ran a beautiful little restaurant with his wife called Savoy, 164 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 4: and David Waltuck, who also ran a beautiful, originally very 165 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: small restaurant with his wife called Chanterrelle, and the way 166 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: that they poured themselves into these restaurants, that they poured 167 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 4: all of their soul and their selves into these restaurants. 168 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 4: But of course they were up against the inexorable constraints 169 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 4: of New York City real estate, which basically says, if 170 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 4: you've had a successful ten year run, we're going to 171 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 4: quadruple your income. And so I got to thinking about 172 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: about that. And Peter had been at cooking school with 173 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: Tony bourdain and they were dear friends, but they defined 174 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 4: totally opposite ends of the cooking experience. Peter an idealist 175 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 4: making his perfect food every night for a small clientele, 176 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 4: Tony boordena on televisions. I wondered what would happen if 177 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 4: Tony Bourdena came back to rescue Peter's kitchen, And let's 178 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 4: imagine that he had had an affair with Peter's wife 179 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 4: twenty years before and they didn't know about it. And 180 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 4: so that was the premise of our table. But what 181 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 4: I particularly wanted to do was write about the sort 182 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 4: of micro mechanics of a restaurant, which I observed from 183 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 4: watching you and from watching other friends. I think that 184 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 4: chefs are the last true artists of the old fashioned kind, right, 185 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 4: because they're simultaneously trying to be inventive artistic. They have 186 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 4: a high standard, but at the same time they lived 187 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 4: to please the way Shakespeare lived to please. You can't say, 188 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 4: though a poet can say, well, if you don't like 189 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 4: it tough, right. Chefs are both artists and their inventiveness 190 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 4: and artisans in their commitment to a craft that has 191 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 4: to please. So I wanted to articulate that, but also 192 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: capture not the kind of the splendid and extravagant gestures 193 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 4: of a kitchen which you often see on television, but 194 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 4: all the tiny little you said to me once, Ruthie. 195 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 4: It is one of my favorite sayings, and I put 196 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 4: it into the show. Every table is a world, and 197 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 4: that's what a true restaurantur understands. Every table is something 198 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 4: is going on and that a great host has to recognize. 199 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 4: So I wrote a song with David Shire called Chopping Onions, 200 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 4: Folding Napkins, in which the husband whose chef is in 201 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 4: the kitchen chopping onions and his wife, who runs the 202 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: front of the house is in the dining room folding napkins, 203 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 4: getting ready for the service, and at the same time 204 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 4: they're having a fight about her old boyfriend. And of 205 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 4: all the things I've ever written, I love the microdrama 206 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 4: of that because it struck me as it's true. 207 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: We can listen to this on Spotify. 208 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 4: On Spotify our Table, I narrate it, and we have 209 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 4: a wonderful cast Melissa Erico, Andy Taylor, Constantine Marulis, and 210 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: it's you know, it's it's a show about a restaurant 211 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 4: and infidelity. 212 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: Infidelity is probably more interesting. 213 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: I've been sulted by that. 214 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: I did nothing more interesting than a restaurant. 215 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: I just wanted to write about the restaurant, but the 216 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: director kept saying, no, no, no, we need lovers and we 217 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: need all of you know, what about food is seduction. 218 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 4: I My wife seduced me with a bottle of champagne 219 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 4: when I was about nineteen. She chased me around the 220 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 4: Christmas tree with a bottle of Bum's Extra Dry. So 221 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: we kind of got that done. Of course, it's it 222 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 4: is seduction always. 223 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: You know I loved Do you remember the first Melia 224 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 3: cooked from Martha? 225 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yes, I cooked her. I was so 226 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 4: such a pretentious kid, and probably still am. I cooked 227 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 4: her a kish because I was learning to bake from 228 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 4: my mom mother's kitchen, in my mother's kitchen, her recipe. 229 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 4: But in the years since, Martha has one favorite meal 230 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 4: which I cook her whenever I want to please her. 231 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 4: Seduce more than please, and that is something I learned 232 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 4: to do in France, which is a good roast chicken 233 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:21,359 Speaker 4: pole depress in France with carrots with cumin and orange 234 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 4: potatoes roasted under the chicken and a broccoli puree and 235 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 4: then a caramelized garlic sauce. You know, and if I 236 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 4: know that that that will always work. 237 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Every year, The River Cafe curates holiday gift boxes 238 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: filled with Italian ingredients. 239 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 2: Are extra virgin olive. 240 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: Oil bottled exclusively for The River Cafe, Paula Petrelli, tomatoes 241 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: from Pulla, Tuscan chocolates and candied sweets from Genoa. One 242 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: of our best boxes is the International box, which also 243 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: has River Cafe Limited Edition jam Chipriani, Ultrafine, Taglerini, Pasta 244 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: River Cafe Cantucci and Nabella Freud candle. There's only one 245 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: week to guarantee your gift box is there in time 246 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: for the holidays. Order on our website, shop the River 247 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: Cafe dot co dot uk or call me on seven. Sorry, okay, thanks. 248 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: You said that you were raised on French food. 249 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 2: Where are we born and what did you. 250 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 4: I was born in Philadelphia because my parents were graduate 251 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 4: students at the University of Pennsylvania and my mother, who's 252 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 4: an extraordinary woman. 253 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: So they were young, they were young, and they came 254 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: from very simple backgrounds. 255 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 4: My grandparents were immigrants from the where on my father's 256 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 4: side from Russia there were Russian Jews, and on my 257 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,239 Speaker 4: mother's side from. 258 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: The Levant they were Sephardic Jews. 259 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 4: That side they had been all around from Hebron to 260 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: Baghdad and beyond. The previous generation actually in Lisbon. My grandmother, 261 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: who I knew very well, was born in Lisbon. In 262 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: any case, truly they were wandering Jews, and that's the background. 263 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 4: But my mom, who was an extraordinarily gifted woman in 264 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: the manner of so many women of her generation, latched 265 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 4: onto French cooking and it was fascinating because she was 266 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: getting her PhD. She had six children. In linguistics, in linguistics, 267 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 4: in formal logic. She was one of the early students 268 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 4: of or researchers in artificial languages and in computer translation, 269 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 4: the stuff that you get now on Google in a minute. 270 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 4: She spent a long time working on that side of 271 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 4: things and then eventually became very well known for her 272 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 4: work in the genetics of language. She discovered one of 273 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 4: the first chromosomes that directly affect the way we form 274 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 4: sentences in any case. In a addition to that, she 275 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 4: was a passionate nightly cook, and like so many women 276 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 4: of her generation, she discovered Julia Child and French cooking 277 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 4: in the mid sixties. 278 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: Explained to Julia Child, I guess we should. 279 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 4: In fact, I did a little piece not long ago, 280 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 4: long piece actually for the New Yorker about Judith Jones, 281 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 4: who was a Julia Child's editor who discovered her really 282 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 4: out of a slush pile of a rejected book and 283 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 4: saw that it could be something great. Julia Child was 284 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 4: the American doyenne of French cooking, wrote had a TV 285 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 4: series called The French Chef. Like all people who are 286 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 4: going to television, her great gift was complete un self consciousness. 287 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: She was sloppy and gray at had beautiful high boys. 288 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: Then she educated dropped a chicken famously. 289 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: She was such a kind of total change to what 290 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: the American cook, domestic cook, the. 291 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 3: Benny Crocker cook. Yes, exactly too. Now you now chopped 292 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 3: the ratit? Oh no, yes, the joe it's on the floor. 293 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: Now we up. 294 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: And it was wonderful and it liberates an entire generation. 295 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 4: And my mom is a perfectionist, and she just became 296 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: a great French cook. And when I say, I mean 297 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 4: all the things that we would never even do now, 298 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 4: like beef wellington, you know, or kleavaca of salmon, or 299 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 4: turn itdo rossini, you know, all of those things that 300 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 4: belong to the to the past of French cooking. 301 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: Now she did. 302 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 4: And her great triumph was a grand Marniers soufle, which 303 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 4: to this day I would still say is the single 304 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 4: I will put a special golden border around the lemon 305 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 4: tart and chocolate nemesis here at the River Cafe. 306 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: But was spectacular. And during the pandemic, when Martha and. 307 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: I were alone, as all of us were, I set 308 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 4: myself the task of mastering my mother's gramarnies. 309 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: Do you have a recipe? 310 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 3: I have her recipe? Did she write it down for 311 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 3: She wrote it down for me. 312 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 4: But it's a somewhat metaphysical recipe because the key moment 313 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 4: in it is she says, beat the egg whites until 314 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 4: they are not truly stiff and yet not entirely soft, 315 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: which is a metaphysical zone to try and arrive at. 316 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 3: Right and over time. 317 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 4: I just did it by trial and error, and she 318 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 4: had one very smart, you know, with the colin French 319 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 4: and astus a hint, which is to have the oven 320 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 4: at four hundred degrees fahrenheit and then turn it down 321 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 4: once this siffley is in, and astonishingly it makes for 322 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 4: it makes for much better loft on it. But my 323 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 4: mama cooked every night for her six children and husband, 324 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 4: and she loved to shop down in Montreal. We moved 325 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 4: to Montreal when I was eleven because my parents got 326 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 4: jobs at McGill University. As I say, and she, you know, 327 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 4: I have nothing but memories of her cooking all the time. 328 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 4: And on my thirteenth birthday, she knew how much I 329 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 4: loved to eat, because I was the kid in the 330 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: family who was always greediest of all. And she said, 331 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 4: what's your favorite thing for dinner? And I said beef 332 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 4: struggle off, because it really was my favorite thing at 333 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 4: that point, she said, you're going to make it for 334 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 4: your own birthday dinner. And she showed me each step 335 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 4: along the way. Start taking the peppers and the onions, 336 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 4: and then the beef, then making the sauce with stock 337 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 4: and tomato paste and sour cream, and then the sheer 338 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 4: magic of that transformation the movement from raw to cooked 339 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 4: and then from raw to cooked to delicious was overwhelming 340 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 4: for me. 341 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: Was that a rare occasion? Then to bring her children 342 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: into the kitchen. 343 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 3: No, we were in there all the time. 344 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: The only problem was my mother is, bless her, an 345 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 4: extremely impatient woman, which is one reason why she got 346 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: those things done. And so she would always yell at you, 347 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 4: not in an angry way, but you know how that is. 348 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 3: We all do it in the kitchen. I need the salt, No, 349 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: I need it now, I need you know. 350 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: And as a consequence, very few people could quite take 351 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 4: the emotional heat in her kitchen, and I inherited all 352 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 4: of her impatience. And as a consequence, everyone of my 353 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 4: immediate family have tried to be my soux chef and 354 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 4: they've all quit, all walked out. 355 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: And what about your father? Did he cook? 356 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 3: No, my dad didn't cook at all, but he loved 357 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: my mother's cooking. 358 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 2: So when we grew up in. 359 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: This house of six children your parents is incredibly dynamic 360 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: and interesting and meal times. 361 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: Where all of you, eight of you, sat down every night. 362 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: It was part of the beauty of my upbringing and 363 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 4: it's something I took with me and have been probably 364 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 4: unduly religious about. With my own family, we always had 365 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 4: dinner together, and dinner was always delicious, and it was 366 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 4: always a debating society, and it was always a community, 367 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 4: and there were always politics being played out, older children, 368 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 4: younger children, middle children, the middle children. Now, I'll say 369 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 4: bitterly that the older children, my sister Allison, and myself 370 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 4: were competing for my father's attention. But whatever was going 371 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 4: on to the table, it was always going on in 372 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 4: that sense that the dinner table is the altar and 373 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 4: sacrament of family life is something that I've taken forward 374 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 4: with me into my own existence. To my children's enormous frustration, 375 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 4: because they became accustomed at eight fifteen am, as they 376 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 4: were leaving for school, bleary eyed, exhausted, barely able to 377 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 4: keep themselves together, I'd say, what would you like for 378 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 4: dinner tonight? 379 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: Would you like the salmon with lentils? Or I can 380 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 3: do a roast chicken, but I just need to know 381 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 3: so I can go shop for And then they said salmon. 382 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: It growing up in a family where meals were taken together, 383 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: or your mother may be willing to do. You remember 384 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: leaving the comfort of home when you went to McGill 385 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: and being exposed to a completely different world. 386 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 3: What was that like McGill was was home, so it 387 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 3: stay home. 388 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 4: Martha, my wife and I were both at McGill together, 389 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 4: but we it's a Canadian thing. You don't go away 390 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 4: to school, you go nearby. But when we moved to 391 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 4: New York, yes, in the summer of nineteen eighty, we 392 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 4: had just graduated, and we got on a bus that 393 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 4: said New York City, like in a forties musical, and 394 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: my dad saw us off. 395 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: He thought it was a mad adventure. We were going 396 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 3: to go live in New York. 397 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 4: And he said to me as I got on the bus, 398 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 4: he said, just remember when you get to New York, 399 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 4: never underestimate the other person's insecurities. That as a general, 400 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 4: as a general piece of advice, and it's the best 401 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 4: advice I've ever gotten. 402 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: It didn't advise you were to eat. 403 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: I thought you might say, no, you forget to go 404 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: to Luisi. 405 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 4: The thing that inspired me when we got to New 406 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 4: York was a writer, actually was Calvin Trillin, Bless him, 407 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 4: and he wrote beautifully about sort of folk dining in 408 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: New York, Russen Daughters, the Great smoke Fishing for him 409 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 4: the local Italian restaurants. But I arrived in New York 410 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 4: and I had to cook. We had a tiny basement apartment. 411 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: It was nine feet by eleven. No one believes this 412 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 4: when I tell it, but we lived there for three years. 413 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: The size of this. 414 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: Tape about the size of this room. 415 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 4: Yes, oh, oh my god, this room would have been 416 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: a mansion. No, it's half the size of this room. Yeah, 417 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: it's half the size of this. I did a one 418 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 4: man show once where I came out cold and lay 419 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 4: down in blue tape, a nine by eleven rectangle. 420 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 3: Then I exited. 421 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 4: I came back on and said, this is the room 422 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 4: my wife and I lived in for three years when 423 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 4: we came to New York. But I was determined to 424 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 4: do nothing but the best cooking. So we had this 425 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 4: tiny little stove in an unventilated nine by eleven room, 426 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 4: and I would do not you know, you know, heat 427 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 4: and serve things. I would do, you know, tuno pav or, 428 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 4: you know, a whole roast chicken in this tiny eleven 429 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 4: and the whole room would fill with smoke. Right, So 430 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 4: you'd open the one window we had and the smoke 431 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 4: would pour out onto the pavement of eighty seventh Street, 432 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 4: and we're. 433 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 3: A student at. 434 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 2: You knew you wanted to be an art historian. Did 435 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: you study art? 436 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 3: I did. 437 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 4: I studied art history, and I was accepted to a 438 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 4: PhD program at the Institute of Fine Arts at New 439 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 4: York University. 440 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: But for me, that was just a mask. It was 441 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: a beard. 442 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 4: I wanted to be a writer, an essayist in the songwriter. 443 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 4: Those are the two things I wanted. But it was 444 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 4: a way of getting to New York. I had a 445 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 4: fellowship to go to NYU. But then my first day, 446 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: my first fall at NYU, at the Institute, where I 447 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 4: intended just to pass through and kind of wave quickly 448 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 4: on my way to the New Yorker, actually I met 449 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 4: Kirk Varnado, who was for both of us a best friend, 450 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 4: who was the most inspired I get for clempt thinking 451 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 4: of that now, a teacher who has ever lived. He 452 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 4: was a great art historian, became the chief curator of 453 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 4: the Museum of Modern Art eventually, and he was such 454 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 4: an inspiring teacher and mentor and model that it became 455 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 4: a kind of diversion in my life for the next 456 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 4: ten years that I actually did my degrees in art history, 457 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 4: and we ended up doing a big show together at. 458 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 3: The Museum of Modern Art. 459 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember eating with him? 460 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 3: Oh, my god. 461 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: Kirk loved, as you know, loved good food, and he 462 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 4: loved French culture. Not just French cuisine, but French culture. 463 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 4: It was the first time in my life we would 464 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 4: go out for dinner. And we were, you know, kids 465 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 4: living in a basement. And Kirk was a young professor. 466 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 4: Wasn't that he had, you know, a lot of money 467 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 4: or anything. And he has just gotten married to Ellen Zimmerman, 468 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 4: his extraordinary artist wife. And we would go out for 469 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 4: dinner and have a bottle of white wine, champagne to start, 470 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 4: bottle of white wine, bottle of red wine, something afterwards 471 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 4: it was anything. 472 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 3: It sounds like, you said, bottle of red wine. Well, 473 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 3: we would go, you know, we would really we would 474 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: eat well. And there was a restaurant in Washington, DC 475 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 3: that we went to once called the Papallon, like the 476 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 3: old French place in New York. And uh. 477 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 4: The Kirk loved. He loved the intensity of that, he 478 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 4: loved the expansiveness of it. He loved everything that a 479 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 4: great French meal stood for as a piece of the 480 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 4: history of the pluralism of pleasures and so on. And 481 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 4: among the happiest days of my life, in which I 482 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 4: believe you participated too, is that when we lived in France, 483 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 4: we had tradition whenever Kirk and Ellen were there that 484 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: we would have cathedral and the lunch and we go 485 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 4: up to Rance or Sha and then spend the morning 486 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 4: touring the cathedral. 487 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: Richard was with us. 488 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 2: I think they to Shark to Sharks. 489 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 4: All exactly, and Kirkwood descant brilliantly and unforgettably about the 490 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 4: facade and the sculpture and the changes and the meanings 491 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 4: and the possibilities. And then after that, you know, staggeringly 492 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: informative and illuminating morning, we'd. 493 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 3: Go for a two star or three star lunch. 494 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: We ate in a restaurant I think it was called 495 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: something like frost Fois. 496 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: Exactly. 497 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 2: Just to introject I love for Kenneth Tita. 498 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: Do you remember when in the book when she says 499 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: we're going to eat in this restaurant called Styes, and 500 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: he said, any restaurant called. 501 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 2: Shay is going to be bad. 502 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: I refuse, I was going to look up for Kirk 503 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: Varnadov's speech. He died in two thousand and three, and 504 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: both Adam and I gave eulogies for him at the 505 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: Metropolitan Museum. It brought this back nineteen seventy two, an 506 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: unrelenting rainstorm in Paris, Richard and I, Judy Bing and 507 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: Bud Marshner bolt for shelter into the Cafe Bozaar to 508 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: meet their friend. A gaspingly handsome man strides into the restaurant, 509 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: wet and wind swept from the ride on his motorcycle, 510 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: an eight p fifty MOTORGUTSI. He his broad shoulders, long hair, mustache, 511 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: and big sidebirds. He tries to find a space for himself, 512 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: his helmet and his leather jacket. As he squeezes onto 513 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: our table. He's already launched into a story about artists 514 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: who ate here in the turn of the century. Too 515 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: big for the restaurant with a story to tell. 516 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: This was Kirk. 517 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 4: It's a beautiful, beautiful description restaurant. You know, he was 518 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 4: a man of such expanse, of authority and appetite at 519 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 4: this same time, such a great appreciator. And you know 520 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 4: the two things that always come to mind for me 521 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: is you know he loved the brassriye delille on the 522 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 4: Ile Saint Luis, which is a classic old fashioned brassery, 523 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 4: and would love the the geaurette to pork with lentils, 524 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 4: you know, really basic things. But he was, as you know, 525 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 4: he died of ridiculously young. And you know, when Kirk 526 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 4: was on chemo in the last couple of years of 527 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 4: his life, I would go with him to the chemo 528 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 4: suite as they called it, bizarrely, and he would sit 529 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 4: because he couldn't waste time, you know, he couldn't. 530 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: Waste time being having cancer. 531 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 4: He would sit with the IV in his arm and 532 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: talk about art and talk about lectures he was going 533 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 4: to give, or a lecture I was going to get, 534 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 4: and we bat ideas around. He was working on a 535 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 4: series of lectures National Gallery in Washington about abstract art, 536 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 4: and he would just test them out on me, and 537 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 4: you know, you were kind of curtained off from the 538 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 4: other patients. And finally, after we've been doing this for 539 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 4: about six weeks, the kurt and open is very sweet 540 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 4: Russian guy Ball from the treatment with putting on his hat, 541 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 4: said excuse me. He said to Kirk, you are professor, 542 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: And Kirk said, yeah, yeah, I'm a teacher. And he said, ah, 543 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 4: he said, because he said, every week I come here 544 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 4: when I know you're going to be here, he said, 545 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 4: I used to bring a book, but now I just 546 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 4: listened to you. 547 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 3: And that was Kirk. 548 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: That was Kirk you were talking about. You were cooking 549 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: in New York in this one room. You were involved 550 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: in the Institute of Fine Arts with the Kirk. You're 551 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: starting to write for the New Yorker. And were you 552 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: just engulfed in the restaurant scene as well in New 553 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: York or was it mostly just cooking. 554 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 3: Well, at the beginning, it was me attempting to cook 555 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 3: like my mom. For Martha. We had one. 556 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 4: You know, I think it's true that all you remember 557 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 4: Tolstoy says about happy and unhappy families. And my theory 558 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 4: is that all bad marriages have a new fight. Every day, 559 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 4: they find something new to fight about. Good marriages had 560 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 4: the same fight over and over and over and over. 561 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 4: So Martha and I have been having the same fight 562 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 4: for forty plus years now. And it's that I like 563 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 4: things done rare. That was part of the culinary esthetic 564 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 4: of my family, and Martha comes from a well done family. 565 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 4: And this is a greater abyss than if she were 566 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 4: Protestant and I were Catholic. But the great thing is 567 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: if you go out to eat, you find that medium 568 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 4: is a perfect word of tender resolution, right because I 569 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 4: can say medium rare and Martha says medium. 570 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: Well, I shock everybody here now, I think because I think, 571 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: actually an Italian cooking, you don't eat rare meat. 572 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: No. 573 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: Richard's mother was an Italian cook from Trieste. Really didn't 574 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: like anything rare. And I think if you kind of 575 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: then take that a bit further, you really enjoy I 576 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: wouldn't say a well done, dry piece of meat, but 577 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: you do like a piece of meat falling off the bone. 578 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: It breathed for hours. 579 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 3: You should. 580 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: Everything is braising everything, So I do you know, I 581 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 4: do becoming a vegetarian braised beef and you know seven 582 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 4: hour lamb in the French ware. You know you slow 583 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 4: cook a lamb, and I much prefer that it's like 584 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 4: this the stink. 585 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for would you 586 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: please make sure to write and review the podcast on 587 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, O, wherever you get your podcasts. 588 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: Thank you. 589 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 1: If food is all that we've described, and you are 590 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: also a very socially conscious, very political person and writer. 591 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: Do you have thoughts about the politics of food. 592 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 4: I have been lucky to have good professors on that cause, yourself, 593 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 4: Alice Waters, Peter Hoffman, Dan Barber, who all feel passionately 594 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 4: about those subjects and to the degree that I can 595 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 4: honor it myself. 596 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: But I go to the green market on Union Square 597 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: and buy from farmers. 598 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 4: I try not to be a puritan about it, because 599 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 4: I recognize that the things that we believe in can 600 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 4: often be unobtainable and hard to do, so I try 601 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 4: to recognize that. 602 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: But you know, my basic view of food is. 603 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 4: You know, it's the most beautifully universal thing that human 604 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 4: beings do every stage of our lives. And if you 605 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 4: think about it, there's almost a universal grammar of food. 606 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 3: Right. We all like a neutral starch and a pungent protein. 607 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 4: Right, whether it's paper deli with mulnaises sauce, or it's 608 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 4: a cassavo root with a pungent African chili, or it's 609 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 4: curry over rice. That's kind of the universal human meal 610 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 4: everyone today, billion people are going to sit down and 611 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 4: have a neutral starch and a pungent protein, a pizza 612 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 4: is that's what a pizza is. The beauty of that 613 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: universality never ceases to astonish me. And the degree to 614 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 4: which our humanity is prisoned, if you like, filtered through 615 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 4: the meals we eat, I think, is a powerful thing. 616 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 4: And I deeply believe Ruthy that there's a direct connection 617 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 4: between the pleasures we enjoy and the politics we want. 618 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 4: Because if there's one thing that I've spent the last 619 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 4: fifteen years writing about, liberal democracy apparently with absolutely no 620 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 4: success at all in altering anybody's view, because it remains 621 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 4: more in danger today as we sit together than at 622 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 4: any time in my lifetime, certainly, But the core principle 623 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 4: of healthy liberal democracy is pluralism. There are many menus 624 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 4: in a liberal democracy. We believe in many menus. We'd 625 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 4: love to go out for Indian food. We welcome immigrants 626 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 4: because they bring with them, whether they're Italians or bangladesh Is, 627 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 4: they bring with them flavors and tastes we haven't had before. 628 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 4: That's part of the the meaning and the magic of 629 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 4: a pluralistic democracy. So the pleasure we take in our 630 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 4: everyday food, the pleasure we take and the. 631 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: Ability to have it, and the ability to have it 632 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 3: and we're you. 633 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: Know, I just somebody told me the other day that 634 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: the military, a huge percentage of people in the Army, 635 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: of the American Army, Navy, Air Force are in food stamps. 636 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: These people are fighting supposedly for us, and they're not 637 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: being able to eat food. 638 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: You know, this is the prison at the same time. 639 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 4: One of the great and you know, one of my 640 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 4: favorite books about food is Elizabeth Leeward's Sacred Food I 641 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 4: think it's called, And one of the points she makes 642 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 4: is the peasant cultures around the world have usually been 643 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 4: among the most creative and productive, and we get beautiful, 644 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 4: universal things like rice puddings. 645 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 3: That we share. 646 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 4: So I really believe that there's no that Not only 647 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 4: is there no distance between the pleasures of the table 648 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 4: and the necessities politics, there's a direct connection. We want 649 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 4: to assert universality. Everyone should eat well, and we want 650 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 4: to assert pluralism. Everybody should be free to eat the 651 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 4: menu that they desire. And that isn't just true about 652 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 4: the things we have at dinner. It's true about the 653 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 4: things we do in bed, the people we choose to love, 654 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 4: the way we choose to identify pluralism is a sign 655 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 4: of a healthy polity. 656 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: We often eat food for comfort, and we have a 657 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: question that we do ask everyone at the end, which 658 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: is to say, if food is sharing, and food is 659 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: remembering your parents, going to Paris, or cooking in a 660 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: one room apartment, it's also comfort. Is there something that 661 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: you would go for particularly? 662 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 4: Yes, I am, and absolutely I have one comfort menu 663 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 4: and it came about in a nice way. When we 664 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 4: were living in Paris, Luca got terribly sick with salmonella poisoning. 665 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 4: We didn't know what it was, and I ended up 666 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 4: at ten o'clock a night, having literally have them in 667 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 4: my arms, running to the children's hospital in the seventh 668 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 4: thro on dismall and they identified what it was and 669 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 4: they got him on the right antibiotics. So about midnight 670 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 4: we finally got him home, and you know, we had 671 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 4: been in a state of absolute anxiety, and we hadn't eaten, 672 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 4: and now we took a deep breath and I looked 673 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 4: around what was there? And all I had was in 674 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 4: the cupboard was rice and some canned beans, and I 675 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 4: had some apples i'd gotten, and I made Mark the 676 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 4: dinner of spicy rice and beans, with the rice treated 677 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 4: with some turmeric. So go orange, spicy rice and beans 678 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 4: with a little Rugeli mixed in that I had in 679 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 4: the fridge, and then a baked apple with red wine 680 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,399 Speaker 4: and noir and walnuts, and it was the single best 681 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 4: meal we'd ever had because it was the worst day 682 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 4: of our life that was now ending decently, and from 683 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 4: that day to this, whenever we have a crisis or 684 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 4: difficulty of sun kind, and said, I'm going to let's 685 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 4: just have spicy rice and beans and a baked apple, 686 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 4: and I. 687 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 3: Know that that will be restored. 688 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Adam. 689 00:35:59,560 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 3: Pleasure. 690 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 2: I think 691 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: H