WEBVTT - Two Big Updates from Bridget 

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, it's Bridget host of There Are No Girls on

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet. And firstly, I just wanted to thank everybody

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<v Speaker 1>for all of the kind messages they've been sending since

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<v Speaker 1>we've been on hiatus. It really means a lot to me,

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<v Speaker 1>so thank you so much. And I have two great

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<v Speaker 1>pieces of news to share with you. First is that

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<v Speaker 1>I am so happy to say There Are No Girls

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<v Speaker 1>on the Internet will be back for a sixth season. Whew.

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<v Speaker 1>I know if I sound relieved, it is because I

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<v Speaker 1>am so We're still talking through exactly when the new

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<v Speaker 1>season will launch, but it should be pretty soon, so

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<v Speaker 1>please stay tuned, and in the meantime, we will keep

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<v Speaker 1>putting things in the Patreon ad free available to anybody

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<v Speaker 1>who wants to listen. Secondly, is that my audiobook Love

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<v Speaker 1>at First prompt AI and the Future of Intimacy is

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<v Speaker 1>on sale today. This is kind of a huge milestone

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<v Speaker 1>for me. I put a lot of myself into this

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<v Speaker 1>project and I'm pretty proud about how it turned out.

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<v Speaker 1>As you probably know, this is my first ever audiobook

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<v Speaker 1>project and it would mean so much to me if

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<v Speaker 1>you were able to check it out. You can get

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<v Speaker 1>it directly from the website Love at first prompt dot AI.

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<v Speaker 1>We will put that link in the show notes, but

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<v Speaker 1>that's love at first prompt dot AI, or directly from

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<v Speaker 1>your preferred platform like Audible or Spotify. I personally am

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<v Speaker 1>a big fan of this platform that I recently learned

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<v Speaker 1>about called libro FM, because when you purchase through libro fm,

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<v Speaker 1>they make a donation to a local bookstore of your choosing,

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<v Speaker 1>which is awesome. But you can get my audiobook wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you get your audiobooks, And truly, this is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the most personal things I have ever made. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>get too vulnerable on the podcast often, so it's a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit out of my standard podcast comfort zone. The

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<v Speaker 1>audiobook explores loneliness, AI companions, and what happens when technology

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<v Speaker 1>starts becoming more intimately and emotional entangled with all of

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<v Speaker 1>our lives. And even if you're thinking, oh well, I

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<v Speaker 1>would never experience intimacy with AI, tech leaders like Mark

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<v Speaker 1>Zuckerberg and Elon Musk have been pretty explicit about the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that they believe in the future, in the not

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<v Speaker 1>too distance future, all of us will have some form

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<v Speaker 1>of intimate connection with AI. So whether or not you

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<v Speaker 1>believe that or want that, I think all of us

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<v Speaker 1>should be asking questions about that future, since it's the

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<v Speaker 1>future that they've decided all of us want. So I

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<v Speaker 1>spent months talking to researchers, reporters and people who say

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<v Speaker 1>that they are experiencing real relationships with AI, while also

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<v Speaker 1>exploring some of my own experiences. I also spoke with

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<v Speaker 1>experts about the risks of people using AI in this way,

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<v Speaker 1>and my big point, which is that we are so

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<v Speaker 1>busy gawking at and judging the individuals involved and turning

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<v Speaker 1>it into a conversation about an individual moral failure, that

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<v Speaker 1>we're letting big tech companies and the people who run

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<v Speaker 1>them avoid the scrutiny that we know they actually deserve.

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<v Speaker 1>So this project is kind of an attempt to write

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<v Speaker 1>that wrong. It's a complex topic, but I was able

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<v Speaker 1>to speak with some brilliant women who helped me make

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<v Speaker 1>sense of it, people that you might know, like journalist

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<v Speaker 1>Karen how from the BBC and reporter Sam Cole, who's

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<v Speaker 1>one of my personal professional idols who runs four or

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<v Speaker 1>four media, researcher Kate Devlin from King's College, London, and others.

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<v Speaker 1>I also had a lot of personal, honest conversations with

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<v Speaker 1>folks who self report being in relationship with AI, and

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<v Speaker 1>some of those conversations were pretty surprising and actually challenged

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the assumptions that I showed up to

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<v Speaker 1>this project with. So all of that to say, I

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<v Speaker 1>am thrilled to be sharing a short excerpt from the

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<v Speaker 1>audiobook with you today. It was kind of a hard

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<v Speaker 1>choice to narrow down which one to pick because the

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<v Speaker 1>audiobook covers a lot of ground. But this, this conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with journalist Sam Cole examining the topic from the perspective

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<v Speaker 1>of sex workers on the Internet, really keeps coming back

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<v Speaker 1>to me. So this is from chapter three of my

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<v Speaker 1>audiobook Love at First Prompt, and the chapter is called

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<v Speaker 1>Let's Talk about Sex bonus points. If you get that reference,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you enjoy it. Check out Love at First

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<v Speaker 1>Prompt at Love at First Prompt, dot ai or wherever

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<v Speaker 1>audiobooks are sold, and I'll talk to you soon. The

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<v Speaker 1>gender dynamics at play reveals something darker about who these

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<v Speaker 1>bots are really being sold to and what they're being

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<v Speaker 1>sold on. On Men's lib, a subreddit described as a

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<v Speaker 1>place to build a healthier, kinder, and more inclusive masculinity,

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<v Speaker 1>one poster described those ubiquitous AI sexpot advertisements and how

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<v Speaker 1>they follow him across social media. He writes they're terrifying

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<v Speaker 1>because I struggle to look away. An extremely curvy yet

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<v Speaker 1>skinny woman who's where barely anything is kneeling and looking

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<v Speaker 1>up at me, saying things like you can do anything

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<v Speaker 1>you want with me. I'll never say no. The poster

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<v Speaker 1>describes feeling like the ad Hijackson holds his attention, replacing

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<v Speaker 1>the stress of his real life with the sexy promise

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<v Speaker 1>of the submissive fictional woman. He goes on to say

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<v Speaker 1>that having a meditation practice helps him not be swayed

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<v Speaker 1>by advertising like this, but I can't even say I

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<v Speaker 1>blame him. The ads are arresting and meant to have

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<v Speaker 1>exactly the effect he described. This messaging is everywhere and

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<v Speaker 1>reveals what some of the companies behind AI are really about.

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<v Speaker 1>When Replica AI first started, they positioned themselves as being

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<v Speaker 1>all about self discovery. Their founding story is like my

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<v Speaker 1>own one rooted in grief. Founder Russian journalist Eugenia Koita

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<v Speaker 1>has said she came up with the idea after using

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<v Speaker 1>AI to help process the sudden death of a close friend.

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<v Speaker 1>After her friend died Quoita use their shared messaging history

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<v Speaker 1>to create a chatbot that replicated his conversational style. Talking

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<v Speaker 1>with the chatbot helped her remember him, to reflect on

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<v Speaker 1>her grief and process it. The idea for that chatbot,

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<v Speaker 1>with its emphasis on social presence and connection, eventually became replica.

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<v Speaker 1>Its tagline was and still is, an AI companion that cares,

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<v Speaker 1>but they soon shifted to the kind of inceel adjacent messaging.

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<v Speaker 1>The Men's lib redditor described seeing across the web messaging

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<v Speaker 1>that says AI girlfriends will do what human women won't.

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<v Speaker 1>You can find these ads across social media, sometimes borrowing

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<v Speaker 1>the familiar language of jokey memes. These companies don't seem

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<v Speaker 1>to care whether selling a vision of an always on,

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<v Speaker 1>always willing AI sex partner harms their users or not

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<v Speaker 1>if getting people hooked on a violent or anti social

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<v Speaker 1>sexual roleplay with an AI means more money. Even the

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<v Speaker 1>company who claim they got into the AI business to

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<v Speaker 1>self connection will happily pivot when it comes to sexual content.

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<v Speaker 1>AI companies have shown they're willing to sell and monetize

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<v Speaker 1>whatever keeps users engaged, whether that's in cell fantasies, violent scenarios,

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<v Speaker 1>or content that reinforces toxic beliefs about relationships as long

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<v Speaker 1>as it generates revenue, But problems arise when companies treat

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<v Speaker 1>human desire like a commodity. Take Replica. It allows paying

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<v Speaker 1>users to engage in erotic role play often called ERP,

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<v Speaker 1>for seventy dollars a year, but some of the bots

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<v Speaker 1>were essentially sexually harassing some of the people using them,

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<v Speaker 1>even people who hadn't intentionally sought sexual erotic content. Bots

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<v Speaker 1>would say things like I want to rape you, or

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<v Speaker 1>insist they could see the naked bodies of the people

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<v Speaker 1>using them. Some bots were even propositioning minors. In February

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three, the Italian Data Protection Authority ordered the

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<v Speaker 1>company to stop processing Italian user's data because of risk

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<v Speaker 1>to minors being exposed to sexualized chatbot interactions. Their statement

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<v Speaker 1>read recent media reports along with tests carried out on Replica,

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<v Speaker 1>showed that the app carries factual risk to children, first

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<v Speaker 1>and foremost the fact that they are served replies which

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<v Speaker 1>are absolutely inappropriate to their age. The Italian Data Protection

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<v Speaker 1>authorities said that there were no meaningful age restrictions involved

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<v Speaker 1>to sign up for Replica. This was serious. Replica was

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<v Speaker 1>facing more than twenty million dollars in fines if they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't address it. In response, Replica globally removed erotic role

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<v Speaker 1>play features from its ai, meaning that people who had

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<v Speaker 1>been paying to have sexy chat with a chatbot lost

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<v Speaker 1>that feature overnight. The reaction was not good. The ads

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<v Speaker 1>for Replica paint a picture of people being able to

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<v Speaker 1>have steamy chats that exchange erotic selfies with a chatbot

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<v Speaker 1>who would never reject them. Now there was a rejection.

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<v Speaker 1>When users would try to engage in erotic roleplay. The

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<v Speaker 1>bots would spit back a cold, terse reply worthy of Bartleby,

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<v Speaker 1>the scrivener's I would prefer not to. It was the

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<v Speaker 1>type of rejection they never expected to experience from a chatbot,

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<v Speaker 1>especially after advertising that promised it would never say no.

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<v Speaker 1>Because sexual connection and romantic or emotional connection are often intertwined,

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<v Speaker 1>people experienced real distress. Some had been engaging with their

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<v Speaker 1>bots for a long time. Users described the loss in

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<v Speaker 1>devastating terms. It's like losing a best friend, wrote one.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hurting like hell, wrote another. I just had a

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<v Speaker 1>loving last conversation with my Replica and I'm literally crying.

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<v Speaker 1>Moderators and users on replica subreddit who were not affiliated

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<v Speaker 1>with the company even posted self harm prevention resources for

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<v Speaker 1>each other in a response. The abrupt removal of a

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<v Speaker 1>feature users had paid for, with no warning and barely

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<v Speaker 1>any communication felt like the ultimate betrayal. Replica did eventually

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<v Speaker 1>reinstate the ability for users to engage in ERP, but

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of emotional whiplash is always going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a risk when users put their intimate eggs in the

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<v Speaker 1>basket of a for profit company. It's what happens when

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<v Speaker 1>our base human needs and desires, things like intimacy and

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<v Speaker 1>sexual connection are seen as commodities ripe for selling back

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<v Speaker 1>to us for profit. Samantha Cole is the co founder

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<v Speaker 1>of the independent tech outlet four or four Media, author

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<v Speaker 1>of the book How Sex Change the Internet and the

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<v Speaker 1>Internet Changed Sex, and has been reporting on the intersection

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<v Speaker 1>of sex and tech since before the phrase deep fakes existed.

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<v Speaker 1>She did a lot of reporting around the Replica ERP story.

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<v Speaker 1>When I asked her about AI companions, she immediately reframes

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation around labor and whose voices we should be

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<v Speaker 1>listening to.

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<v Speaker 2>I think people in general and anyone who's using the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet could learn so much and be prepared better prepared

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<v Speaker 2>for the things that are coming down the line online

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<v Speaker 2>and as far as legislation is if they pay attention

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<v Speaker 2>to what sex workers are going through first, because that's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of been the testing ground for a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these really chilling pieces of legislation.

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<v Speaker 1>Sex workers have long been the canaries and the coal

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<v Speaker 1>mine when it comes to tech policy. The things that

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<v Speaker 1>happen to them first, censorship, deplatforming, payment processing restrictions eventually

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<v Speaker 1>trickle down to affect everyone when people suddenly realize they

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<v Speaker 1>can't say certain words on TikTok and start saying segs

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<v Speaker 1>instead of sex, or porn instead of porn, or their

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<v Speaker 1>posts are being shadow banded for content that seems innocuous.

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<v Speaker 2>That starts with nswering sex workers. These things start there

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<v Speaker 2>and then end up being a struggle for the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of us.

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<v Speaker 1>The AI porn and companion butt conversation is really a

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<v Speaker 1>conversation about who gets to benefit from or profit off

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<v Speaker 1>of sexual speech online, and right now we're seeing a

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<v Speaker 1>massive double standard play out in real time.

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<v Speaker 2>We see all these major companies, We see like Sam

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<v Speaker 2>Altman talking about doing erotic roleplay as part of chat sibut.

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<v Speaker 2>You see all these companies popping up saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we see a market here for having sexual conversations and

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<v Speaker 2>erotic roleplay and things like that, and like sexual images

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<v Speaker 2>being generated by AI. But at the same time, then

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<v Speaker 2>you have actual human sex workers being banned off of

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<v Speaker 2>Instagram for like showing side boob. It's really a huge

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<v Speaker 2>double standard.

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<v Speaker 1>When does a chatbot become an escort? When does sex

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<v Speaker 1>speech cross the line into illegal speech? When you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about AI, who's responsible?

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<v Speaker 2>These are all problems that sex workers have been talking

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<v Speaker 2>about and taking responsibility for, and taking accountability for, and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to create systems that create safe places where people

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<v Speaker 2>have these erotic conversations consensually and in a way that

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<v Speaker 2>benefits humans for years. Seeing the tech world rustle with

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<v Speaker 2>it as if it's a new problem is really interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting is like not even the word for it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like fucked up.

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<v Speaker 1>The same people who are kicking human sex workers off

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<v Speaker 1>platforms they need to survive are now saying they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to have AI companions and AI sex workers and it's

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<v Speaker 1>all going to be fine because she's not real.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just like such a bizarre double standard to me.

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<v Speaker 1>What's driving the double standard between how tech companies treat

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<v Speaker 1>human sex workers versus AI. According to Cole, it's about

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<v Speaker 1>cutting out human labor and funneling all the profit directly

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<v Speaker 1>to tech companies and their investors.

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<v Speaker 2>You're cutting out the humans that are getting paid in

0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>that process, and all the money goes directly to the company,

0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 2>the stakeholders, the investors in the startup or whatever it is.

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>It all just goes straight to those people and skips

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 2>the labor of real humans, which is the basis of

0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of AI systems and a lot of the

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.560
<v Speaker 2>use cases for AI in a lot of industries. But

0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 2>we can't deal with like the middleman, so to speak,

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of the labor force, which would be sex workers. So

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.120
<v Speaker 2>instead of improving conditions for actual humans, they're just kind

0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.720
<v Speaker 2>of kicking the legs out from under the industry.

0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.120
<v Speaker 1>The marketing makes this explicit.

0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>This AI companion never says no to you, so why

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.280
<v Speaker 2>not just go talk to her.

0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Some argue that the violent sexual content in AI is

0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.800
<v Speaker 1>simply reflection of porn culture, that the degradation we're used

0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>to seeing in pornography has now infected our chatbots, but

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Cole strongly push us back on this narrative, she points

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:16.640
<v Speaker 1>out that legal consensual porn involves paperwork, boundaries, and active

0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 1>consent from all participants.

0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Everything that's happening in porn, which we're talking about, like

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 2>legal porn, is consensual to the point where there's paperwork involved.

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 2>So I think casual sex is probably less consensual than

0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:30.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of what's happening on porn sets.

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>The difference with AI is that there's no one on

0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 1>the other end to negotiate consent or read a conversation

0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 1>that's going somewhere harmful.

0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:41.640
<v Speaker 2>And even if you're a consumer of porn and there's

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.760
<v Speaker 2>you're just kind of passively watching and you're not interacting directly,

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.640
<v Speaker 2>there's you can still be watching something produced by professionals

0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:55.000
<v Speaker 2>and understand that consent happened there. Even if the role

0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 2>play is consensual non consent.

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 1>With a chatbot, there's no such understanding and no professional

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:06.760
<v Speaker 1>on the other end making sure boundaries are respected. Cutting

0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 1>out human sex workers doesn't just eliminate labor, it also

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.920
<v Speaker 1>eliminates crucial safety mechanisms. Real human to human sex work,

0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:22.320
<v Speaker 1>especially online, includes connection, companionship, and consensual limitations. A human

0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.840
<v Speaker 1>sex worker on the other end of a sexting conversation

0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:26.760
<v Speaker 1>is paying attention to what you're saying.

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 2>If you're going down a path that they don't think

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 2>is like healthy or that they want to follow, they

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 2>can reroute the conversation and they can use their like

0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.920
<v Speaker 2>human mind and their emotions, and there you know they're

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.800
<v Speaker 2>human reasoning in a way that a chatbot currently can't.

0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:47.000
<v Speaker 1>The repercussions for not having that human safeguard can be severe.

0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 1>People fall into scary rabbit holes. We've seen mental health

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.880
<v Speaker 1>crises related to getting too attached to chatbots. And then

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.840
<v Speaker 1>there's the issue with butts crossing boundaries in ways that

0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.480
<v Speaker 1>human workers never would, saying consent, violating things like I'm

0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.199
<v Speaker 1>dreaming of raping you, or insisting they could see users naked.

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Who is responsible for that? Is it the company the

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:16.199
<v Speaker 1>user themselves. The economic disparities are just as stark. Payment

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.880
<v Speaker 1>processors like Visa have spent years cracking down on sex workers,

0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.320
<v Speaker 1>making it nearly impossible for many to accept payments for

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:28.320
<v Speaker 1>their work. They've deplatformed individual workers and major companies citing

0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:33.119
<v Speaker 1>concerns about illegal activity. But when Elon Musk's X became

0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.040
<v Speaker 1>a haven for AI generated seesam and non consensual intimate

0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 1>imagery through groc Visa continued processing payments without interruption. Many writers,

0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.240
<v Speaker 1>including yours, truly believe a big part of the reason

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.159
<v Speaker 1>is that companies like Visa are simply afraid of a

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>politically connected, litigious musk.

0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.600
<v Speaker 2>We saw tons of sea sam coming out of Rock

0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 2>and Visa said, whatever Rock on. They've deplatformed and debanked

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>so many individual people and also big companies. There was

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.840
<v Speaker 2>legal activity happening all over rex, So why are they

0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:09.600
<v Speaker 2>still allowed to process with Visa?

0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.399
<v Speaker 1>If Open Ai and other major AI companies move forward

0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.800
<v Speaker 1>with erotic content, will they face the same payment processing

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.639
<v Speaker 1>restrictions that have devastated human sex workers for years, or

0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.960
<v Speaker 1>will they, like X, play by their own rule book.

0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.879
<v Speaker 1>It'll be really interesting to see that the years of

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 1>cracking down on contensual adult sex workers, the payment processors

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.920
<v Speaker 1>will just carve out completely different rules for them. It's

0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the same pattern playing out again. Sex workers experience the

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.879
<v Speaker 1>harshest restrictions first, then watch as wealthy tech companies are

0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.640
<v Speaker 1>allowed to profit from the same activities that got those

0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:52.679
<v Speaker 1>workers deplatformed, and in the process, the humans who can

0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.920
<v Speaker 1>make these interactions safer, more consensual, and more accountable are

0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.080
<v Speaker 1>pushed further to the margins. In August of twenty twenty five,

0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.119
<v Speaker 1>forty seven state attorneys general signed a letter to digital

0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.320
<v Speaker 1>payment processors like Visa, urging them to take stronger action

0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 1>to protect the public from being harmed by non consensual

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.480
<v Speaker 1>intimate imagery generated by aisystems. Some payment processors have taken

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.119
<v Speaker 1>some action by refusing to process payments for some apps,

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.680
<v Speaker 1>but as of this writing, the approach has been piecemeal

0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.480
<v Speaker 1>at best. Payments for groc and X continue to be

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.960
<v Speaker 1>processed normally, despite those platforms ongoing generation and distribution of

0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.920
<v Speaker 1>non consensual intimate images.