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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Steph. I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. Our guest today are the co host

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Speaker 1: of The Bechdel Cast, Jamie and Caitlin. Jamie and Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, Hi, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having us. Men. We are a big, big fans of yours.

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Speaker 1: As our listeners know, we love love, love love love

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Speaker 1: digging into pop culture and looking at it through a

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Speaker 1: feminist lens, hopefully in a fun, enjoyable way. Could you

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Speaker 1: tell us a bit about yourselves and your show. Well,

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Speaker 1: we were both comedians, yes, Um, we're both writers. Um,

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Speaker 1: we host the Bechtel Cost as you said, which is

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Speaker 1: a show where we examine the portrayal of women in

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Speaker 1: movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Um. And yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean we we made the show both because we

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Speaker 1: didn't think that there was a show like it out there.

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Speaker 1: Most of the movie podcasts were just like, yep, it's awesome,

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Speaker 1: and it was dudes saying that movies by dudes. There's

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Speaker 1: actually nothing wrong with it, and and it's and and

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Speaker 1: to like kind of like keep ourselves accountable and make

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Speaker 1: us better writers and people. Yeah, that was the idea.

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Speaker 1: Didn't work out. Well, that's a really important thing on

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Speaker 1: this show is UM constantly growing and trying to become

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Speaker 1: better and more aware. So I definitely encourage listeners to

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Speaker 1: check out your show. Recently, you guys had Alfred led

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Speaker 1: on there. I love it. I want the shirts oh badly,

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Speaker 1: very Oh please send me one. That was a ploy

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Speaker 1: for this whole podcast collaboration. UM and most listeners probably

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Speaker 1: know what the Bechdel test is, but as a primer,

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Speaker 1: would you mind giving us a brief rundown? I mean,

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Speaker 1: they could just check out your podcast because you have

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Speaker 1: a wonderful intro song that explains it. But yeah, just

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Speaker 1: to get everybody on the same page. Yeah, we So.

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Speaker 1: The Bechdel Test is a media test metric invented by

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Speaker 1: UH cartoonist Alison Bechdel, and for our purposes, we require

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Speaker 1: that there be a scene in any piece of narrative

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Speaker 1: fiction that as two named female identifying characters who talk

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Speaker 1: about something other than a man for more than two

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Speaker 1: lines of dialogue. Yes, gather different variations of it, but

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Speaker 1: that's the one that we use, and as we often

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Speaker 1: point out on our show, it's a low bar. You

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Speaker 1: wouldn't think it would be that hard for two named

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Speaker 1: women to peak to each other about something other than

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Speaker 1: a man, And yet it does not happen that often,

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Speaker 1: and when it does happen, it's usually like it just

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Speaker 1: like barely squeaks by, or the women are telling each

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Speaker 1: other how much do they hate each other? Or they're

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Speaker 1: like calling each other up like it's you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a flawed metric. But it wasn't meant intended to

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Speaker 1: be used as intensely as it is used. It was

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Speaker 1: originally in uh comic that Alisa Bechdel wrote in the eighties. Right,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of more of a almost a joke

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Speaker 1: pointing something out right. Exactly right, but yes it is.

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Speaker 1: It is a low bar and yet a lot of movies,

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Speaker 1: especially as I've gotten older and become feminists, like, really

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Speaker 1: accepted it and embraced its. Surprising how many movies I've

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Speaker 1: had to go back to that were favorites of mine

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Speaker 1: and say, well, main theme of our podcasts either women

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Speaker 1: who are the love interest or women just providing exposition

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Speaker 1: about the male protagonist. Yep, I guess that's what we're for. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a pro. And the the idea that

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Speaker 1: you pitched was you wanted to talk about, um, the

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Speaker 1: betrayal of women in movies in general, but maybe with

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Speaker 1: a particular focus or a starting off point with Disney movies. Correct, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: And I immediately, because I'm a big nerd, I was like, wait,

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Speaker 1: which which Disney movies are we talking about? Are we

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Speaker 1: talking about the princesses? Like Black Widow? Does she count?

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Speaker 1: Princess Leiah? What about her? Because Disney owns everything they

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they are just conglomerate, those swallowing ass whole Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, we were thinking more along the lines of

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Speaker 1: like the classic Disney princesses, your snow Whites, your Cinderella,

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Speaker 1: the ones on the backpacks. You're your classic backpack princess,

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Speaker 1: your Bells, your Jasmines. Although Mulan is never on the

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Speaker 1: backpacks and that always was upsetting to me as a child.

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Speaker 1: And now because Disney is racist and Mulan is the

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Speaker 1: bet I argue I still think Mulan is the best

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Speaker 1: princess in terms of uh, like from using a feminist

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Speaker 1: bar and just like she's the cool Yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: songs are great in that movie? Yeah, yeah, was that?

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Speaker 1: Do you do you each have a favorite when you're

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Speaker 1: a kid, which was your favorite Disney princess? Hmm. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I had a favorite Disney princess, because

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Speaker 1: my favorite Disney movie when I was a kid was

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Speaker 1: The Great Mouse Detective. Oh yeah, I would say my

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Speaker 1: favorite movie that has a Disney princess in it when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid was probably probably Aladdin. Um today

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Speaker 1: it is Mowanna. My favorite. My favorite when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid was definitely Belle and Beauty and the Beast,

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Speaker 1: I think strictly big. She had brown hair, uh and

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Speaker 1: could read, which at the time was like, oh she

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Speaker 1: can read amazing. Um. So I was like, brown hair

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Speaker 1: can read. Well, I feel seen that a and her

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Speaker 1: child we can read. Um. And then yeah, now these

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Speaker 1: days it is a tie. I think Mulana is my favor,

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Speaker 1: but Milana is also incredible. Milanna yeah pretty great. Um

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Speaker 1: mine was. And I love looking back at this now

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Speaker 1: because mine was the Princess Aurora from The Sleeping Beauty

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Speaker 1: and she pretty much spent the whole movie set. So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, why did I Why was she my favorite?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I really liked Maleficent. And

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Speaker 1: also they said hell in that movie, which as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was like head, Oh my god, moleficent Is and

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Speaker 1: I mean like as a just the way that character

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Speaker 1: is designed is was the scariest person in the world

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Speaker 1: to me when I was a kid, because she was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she looked really sharp. I remember that was like

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Speaker 1: my specific fear, like she looked like, yeah, the scariest

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Speaker 1: for me was Ursula and Little Mermaid I wanted to bear. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she was pretty frightening too. But okay, let's let's get

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Speaker 1: into this discussion around the betrayal of of women in movies,

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Speaker 1: and particularly of Disney. And it sounds like we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Disney princesses right now. I mean, it's pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: well understood, especially as I've gotten older, that it's not

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Speaker 1: great the because it's been the whole movie. Like success

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Speaker 1: in these movies is finding your prince charming and getting married.

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Speaker 1: That is like your entire goal in life, right, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of them are based on existing fairy tale that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the narratives of those are always like, oh, damsel in

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Speaker 1: distress and then she gets rescued by her prince Charming

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Speaker 1: and then they live happily ever after. Something I think

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Speaker 1: is like interesting that we're we're we're gearing up for

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Speaker 1: a Little Mermaid episode right now, so we're kind of

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Speaker 1: thinking a lot about it. Is that especially like once

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Speaker 1: you hit the Disney renaissance, so like a Little Mermaid

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Speaker 1: and on um, there's like such a specific formula that

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Speaker 1: all the Princess movies follow, i think with the exception

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Speaker 1: of a Laddin, because Jasmine is not the main character.

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Speaker 1: But where at the they always start out okay, where

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Speaker 1: there's always that song in the beginning, like in The

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Speaker 1: Little Mermaid and in Beauty and the Beast, where it's

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Speaker 1: like there's some sort of like intellectual longing from the

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Speaker 1: princess character who's like, I wanna, you know, bust out

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Speaker 1: of my normal life. I want to go out in

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Speaker 1: the world and I want to learn things and all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. And then immediately after that song it's always

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Speaker 1: derailed by like and the only way to do that

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Speaker 1: is boyfriend or large dog if it's speedy in the

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Speaker 1: Beast like and so it's just always it's frustrating because

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Speaker 1: those are always the best songs movie usually, and the

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Speaker 1: topic of it is generally like vague enough of like

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Speaker 1: wanting to learn, and then it's well, even with Aladdin,

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Speaker 1: even though she doesn't have a jasmine doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: song about it. Her driving desire in the first chunk

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Speaker 1: of the movie is to like escape the palace life

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Speaker 1: and because she doesn't want like her father deciding her

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Speaker 1: future for all that stuff, so she like has a

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Speaker 1: drive to like go out into the world and live

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Speaker 1: her own life. But then immediately she's like, well, what

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Speaker 1: if I met Aladdin though and married him? Literally it's

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Speaker 1: always literally the first person she meets upon going into

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Speaker 1: the like Ariel like goes to the surface and is like,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, and like I'm I guess Bells is a

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Speaker 1: little more complicated because she like trades her body for

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Speaker 1: her bad inventor dad, Like there and the daddy issues,

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Speaker 1: Like what, that's the whole thing too, But it's the

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Speaker 1: something that because your your is like the criticism surrounding

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Speaker 1: Disney princesses are so like well known generally now that

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Speaker 1: it's it's almost like okay, fine, another person saying, like

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Speaker 1: Ariel trade her legs and her voice to get a boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: But there's there are good parts hidden in there, and

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Speaker 1: it makes it even more disappointing that those are kind

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Speaker 1: of buried by all these like normative, boring stories. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a couple of years ago. I have a friend who, um,

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Speaker 1: we we would just stay up and discuss all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things, and somehow or another, the conversation became which

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Speaker 1: Disney princess do you think is the most problematic? Like

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Speaker 1: that's how well known, it's just so classmatic, and we

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Speaker 1: I think she said Belle and I said Ariel. But

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Speaker 1: this was years ago, so I'd have to revisit, revisit

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Speaker 1: the question. I think. I mean, Sleeping Beauty is an

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Speaker 1: easy choice, just because she's not allowed to do anything

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Speaker 1: the whole movie. But I don't know. I mean, Ariel

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Speaker 1: seems to be the popular choice for I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: the most egregious example on the on the surface at least. Wow. Um,

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Speaker 1: I would I mean, I would maybe take it all

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Speaker 1: the way back to the original Disney Princess of snow White,

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Speaker 1: who is no one's favorite, but she sucks. That movie sucks.

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Speaker 1: And yeah we're saying it, but hot takes. I don't

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Speaker 1: take it back. You're sticking by it. Yeah, mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: It has been a while since I've seen is No

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Speaker 1: White and and something you said earlier, I hadn't really

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Speaker 1: considered because, Um, in the second half of this discussion,

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Speaker 1: we're going to look at the treatment of mothers in

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Speaker 1: in Disney movies, but I haven't really thought about like

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Speaker 1: daddy issues and fathers in Disney movies. Hyeah. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: i mean the majority of Disney princesses, and this has

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Speaker 1: like gradually changed over time. Like I think by the

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Speaker 1: time you hit Frozen, there's two living parents parents. They

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Speaker 1: will they die shortly after we meet them. They are

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Speaker 1: killed immediately, but at least there's you know, gender parity

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Speaker 1: in who dies. Um. But in most of them, especially

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Speaker 1: like the Disney Renaissance once it's like a part of

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Speaker 1: the formula that there's no mother and in it like

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Speaker 1: in some it's i mean not really in any as

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Speaker 1: it referred to were Ariel has King Triton, who's just

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Speaker 1: like this, you know, he doesn't understand his teenage daughter

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Speaker 1: and he destroys everything she owns because he's confused. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And then the story ends with her still needing his

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Speaker 1: permission to live the life she wants to live because

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Speaker 1: he's the only one who can alter her body permanently

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Speaker 1: and give her over to another man. So that's not good. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, and then Belle's father is a huge

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Speaker 1: portion of beauty and the beast Pocahontas has another I

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Speaker 1: mean kind of closer to King Triton, like a powerful

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Speaker 1: father who doesn't get it, uh kind of figure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Mulan has a mom, but she's not as important in

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Speaker 1: the narrative as the dad. Uh. So it's all all

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Speaker 1: the princesses sort of have some patriarch type figure. Um

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Speaker 1: who gets to deter and what happens to her life?

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Speaker 1: Because even though Mulana as a mom, it's her father

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Speaker 1: who tells her that, you know, she has to live

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Speaker 1: out this, you know, being married off life instead of

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Speaker 1: going off to fight like she wants to. Same thing

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Speaker 1: with um Frozen, even though we meet both parents and

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Speaker 1: even though they are killed, it's shipwreck. I think, um

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Speaker 1: the mother in that movie, while she is on screen,

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Speaker 1: I don't think has any lines or only says like

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Speaker 1: one or two things. And then it's the father character

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Speaker 1: like pushing the story forward in any significant way. So

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Speaker 1: like the mother may as well not even be there

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Speaker 1: because of how unimportant she is to the story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems like almost an empty response to like Disney

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Speaker 1: princesses never have moms. It's like, well, we rendered one,

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Speaker 1: but we didn't hire anyone to voice her. She was

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Speaker 1: there briefly. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: you storry. I mean it's subverted later on. I know

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Speaker 1: that the Rapunzel has I mean she has an evil

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Speaker 1: mother figure and Tangled villain slash mother. Yeah, so if

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Speaker 1: women are on screen, they can't be. But with Molanna,

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Speaker 1: she has both a mother that she talks to and

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Speaker 1: who supports her, and it is grandma and grandmother who

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Speaker 1: is killed. She is killed, but at least from old

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Speaker 1: age and not from like some violent death which the

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Speaker 1: mother characters, as I think, are we're supposed to assume

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Speaker 1: that they die or like with the least with like Frozen,

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Speaker 1: there's Frozen. There's like a whole bizarro theory that Frozen,

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Speaker 1: the Little Mermaid and Tangled are all connected and that uh,

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Speaker 1: the parents in Frozen die on the way to Ariel's

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Speaker 1: wedding or something. Yeah, there's a lot of wild theories

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Speaker 1: out there, and I believe all of them. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I went on a deep dive about how all of

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Speaker 1: the Pixar movies are connected in the universe. There seems

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of water to that one. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. There seems to be credibility. Yeah, that is definitely.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're looking for a fun or probably

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Speaker 1: not fun at all time, get me drunk and put

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Speaker 1: me in front of a Pixar movie and I will

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Speaker 1: explain how they're all connected in the most conspiratorial way. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I was thinking about going back to Sleeping Beauty, which,

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Speaker 1: again I haven't watched it forever, but it was my

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Speaker 1: favorite as a child. I guess she did. She had

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Speaker 1: those like three fairies women that she she lived with. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. And then Cinderella had the fairy godmother. Yeah

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Speaker 1: but in the but in both of those stories, I

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Speaker 1: feel like those characters are introduced only because the princess

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Speaker 1: character doesn't have enough personality. We don't know her well

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Speaker 1: enough to be to be able. We're not supposed to

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Speaker 1: believe that she could do it on her own. Uh.

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Speaker 1: With like Cinderella, like, I know she's upset, but she

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Speaker 1: could walk out of the house, you know. Like but

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Speaker 1: but it's like, no, she needs this Matt, she needs

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Speaker 1: magic to to leave the house, or like sleeping Beauty

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Speaker 1: needs magic to not be dead basically, or snow White

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Speaker 1: needs the magic of necrophilia to bring her back to life. Well,

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Speaker 1: isn't a lot of these. It's like true love's kiss

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Speaker 1: that like breaks whatever spells kiss from a man of course,

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Speaker 1: Like it's it's always this heaterformative story, which I mean

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Speaker 1: the like I mean it's but the the whole consent

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Speaker 1: thing with true love's kisses, Like the prince in snow

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Speaker 1: White fully thought she was dead when he when he

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Speaker 1: really laid one on her. But then he's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're alive, sick, live, but she was asleep and therefore

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Speaker 1: could not give consent, right, uh, And you can never

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Speaker 1: give consent when you're dead, That's true. We always say

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Speaker 1: on the show it's our main cat, which sounds vaguely threatening.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't mean you can't keep it's just a fact, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a panic attack. And then when we do this is

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Speaker 1: especially true of the earlier Disney Princess movies. But if

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Speaker 1: we do see a mother figure, it is often an

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Speaker 1: evil stepmother. So it's villainizing another woman for reasons that

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Speaker 1: you could maybe argue are justified. But the way the

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Speaker 1: narrative sets it up like usually not it's usually like

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Speaker 1: the snow white just this woman who's so petty that

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Speaker 1: she's not the prettiest woman in all the land. And

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Speaker 1: then it's kind of the same deal with the evil

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Speaker 1: stepmother who is just like my daughter's look Weirdrella, and yeah, sorry, Cinderella,

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Speaker 1: and Cinderella doesn't look weird, and so she will be

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Speaker 1: and like an unpaid worker forever and she's just like

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Speaker 1: their intern permanently. Um it's bad. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. And it's not to say that the

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Speaker 1: father figures that are presented, they're usually complicated, and but

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Speaker 1: they're not villains. They're allowed to be complicated in a

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Speaker 1: way that like female characters are Like, no, they're evil.

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Speaker 1: But Triton, who like destroys everything his daughter cares about, Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's just confused. And like Chief Powton, who's like threatening,

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Speaker 1: I mean and Chief out and it's different because he's

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Speaker 1: kind of trying to like get rid of people who

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Speaker 1: are actively trying to like eradicate everything that you like

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Speaker 1: Native American called indigenous people. So he's got like better points.

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Speaker 1: And then those fathers are both like redeemed by the end,

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Speaker 1: whereas like the Evil stepmothers at least in snow White

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Speaker 1: falls off a cliff or kids bolder land on top

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Speaker 1: of her. Maleficent is she killed? I don't, I've only

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Speaker 1: ever seen sleeping Beauty. Why. Yeah, I'm pretty sure she

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Speaker 1: gets she turns into a dragon and gets stabbed. She

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Speaker 1: gets slain Maleficent And uh, this is just a fun

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Speaker 1: little fact I learned. Maleficent and the Evil Stepmother are.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the characters side by side, it's

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Speaker 1: like the exact same build of a character. They just

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Speaker 1: like recycled one in making the other. And they're also

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Speaker 1: voiced by the same person. Oh well, that that would

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Speaker 1: be a fun like these worlds are connected type thing too.

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Speaker 1: I'll have to think about that. Only one evil lady. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's just got around marrying a bunch of men who

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Speaker 1: already have daughters and being the evil stepmother to all

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Speaker 1: of them. But Malifficent is I think like she's also

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Speaker 1: petty jealous of Aurora, but she's a little closer connected

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Speaker 1: to Ursula. I think of like, she is upset that

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Speaker 1: she's been cast out of the Royal Um, out of

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Speaker 1: like the Royal in circle um. And then you know

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Speaker 1: comes back to punish a teen for some reason instead

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Speaker 1: of the person who wronged her always like their teen

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Speaker 1: daughter that she targets leverage. Yeah, M I recently watched

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Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you ever saw The

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Speaker 1: Black Cauldron. I've never seen it, but it's I'm I'd

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Speaker 1: be interested to see it. Yeah. Yeah, I remember when

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Speaker 1: it came out. Um, it was build in this way

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Speaker 1: of like it was a movie that was too dark

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Speaker 1: for Disney to release. It has no songs in it, um,

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Speaker 1: And as a kid, I was like, whoa this? And

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Speaker 1: it's obviously a little different because it's based on that book,

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Speaker 1: The Black Cauldron. Um, but I yeah, it's still like

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Speaker 1: a princess one one female character. There are three witches later,

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Speaker 1: which is very similar to Sleeping Beauty. Yeah, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that it seems to be a very similar story, just

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Speaker 1: told in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's like Bill, It's

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Speaker 1: all it's most of the time, it's like, here's a

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Speaker 1: very similar story with some elements changed, taking place in

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Speaker 1: a different Western European country. Like that's usually until more recently,

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Speaker 1: what it's always been. But it's because there are a

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Speaker 1: opting the same European fairy tales over and over and

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Speaker 1: not really exploring much outside of that region. I wonder

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Speaker 1: why why I wonder. I know we it probably goes

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Speaker 1: without saying, but we've done an episode on action figures,

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Speaker 1: and so many executives have said one of the reasons that, um,

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Speaker 1: the princesses, they make so much money that they don't

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Speaker 1: think that they have to make new content for young

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Speaker 1: girls because they're already selling so much with princesses, so

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Speaker 1: they don't. Entire movies have been written by by that

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Speaker 1: like mindset of thinking, I want to sell toys to boys,

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Speaker 1: so I'm going to make movies with boys in them,

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Speaker 1: with men and them to sell action figures to boys

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Speaker 1: because they would never buy an action figure of a

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Speaker 1: female character. So and these girls already have the princesses,

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Speaker 1: so we'll focus on like this category of selling toys

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Speaker 1: to boys. That's how entire stories get written. What a

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Speaker 1: what a gift? And that I mean that makes total sense,

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Speaker 1: and it's so frustrating that, um, you know, the same

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Speaker 1: princesses are still kind of like the princesses from the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and nineties are still the ones most prominently

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Speaker 1: featured on all the princess merch, but it is, it's

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Speaker 1: it's weird. It feels like a catch twenty two to

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Speaker 1: some extent of like, I guess if you're a business

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Speaker 1: person lacking a moral compass, which is all of them, uh,

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Speaker 1: you would just be like, well, if this sells, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't cost me any money to come up with new

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Speaker 1: I p evil. Yeah, real bad. But then every once

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Speaker 1: in a while you do see like a character that, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think like Ray from Star Wars

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Speaker 1: is a good example of like a female character who

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Speaker 1: appeals to boys and girls and hopefully, I mean would

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Speaker 1: be the type of action figure and the type of

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Speaker 1: protagonist that would appeal to all kids and isn't so

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Speaker 1: intensely gendered to like a comical degree that all the

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Speaker 1: all the princess characters are. But do you remember the

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Speaker 1: controversy around that from a few years ago, where like

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Speaker 1: they were selling I forget which toy company it was,

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Speaker 1: but they were selling like a pack of little action

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Speaker 1: figures from The Force Awakens and Ray, who is the

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Speaker 1: main character of the movie, was not included in Wait,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that, that's crazy. The idea was like, oh, boys,

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Speaker 1: aren't gonna want to buy this if a woman's in

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Speaker 1: these among these toys, and it's like character did the

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Speaker 1: story that's insane. Yeah. It was also they took a

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Speaker 1: financial gamble that failed because turns out kids did want

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Speaker 1: that toy Ray And they had all of this excess

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Speaker 1: of Kylo Wren, who they thought was going to be

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Speaker 1: the big selling toy, the male character, like, we need

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Speaker 1: more out the Driver dolls, and parents were like, my

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Speaker 1: kid wants this Ray doll, and toy sellers were like,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to make it. Yeah, that has happened

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Speaker 1: over and over again. Like they did that with the

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Speaker 1: monopoly of the Star Wars monopoly. They didn't feature her.

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Speaker 1: Um T shirts with like group pictures of Star Wars

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Speaker 1: characters don't feature her. Didn't they do that with like

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Speaker 1: wasn't there like a black widow? Yeah? And and then

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Speaker 1: even the princesses. It's as the princesses slowly become you know,

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Speaker 1: they're representing more realistic body types, They're representing something other

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Speaker 1: than unrealistically proportioned white lady. Uh, there's still like I

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Speaker 1: don't know if anyone remembers when the Merida from Brave

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Speaker 1: Um when she was released as part of the Disney

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Speaker 1: Princess Gang. They changed her appearance to make her skinnier

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Speaker 1: and change her hair from being messy to being very

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Speaker 1: like quaft and aunty, and they put makeup on her,

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Speaker 1: even though that character is supposed to be very young,

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Speaker 1: and they gave her the princess treatment, even though part

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Speaker 1: of the point of the movie she was in was

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Speaker 1: to subvert that. And that was a big issue because

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Speaker 1: that the women who wrote that character was like, no,

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Speaker 1: you can't do that. That was I was trying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they'll always try. Man always try. Mm hmmm hmm.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say that. That's another thing worth mentioning

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Speaker 1: about the way these Disney princesses have been animated and

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Speaker 1: drawn and just they're esthetic is that they often have

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Speaker 1: these body types that I mean, there's very little differentiation

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Speaker 1: among them. They are these like and especially I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of Jasmine and Aerial, where they have these microscopic wastes.

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Speaker 1: They have these like very revealing outfits. And these characters

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Speaker 1: are supposed to be like teenagers, like Aerial is sixteen

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Speaker 1: sixteen basically or somewhere Jasmin unclear, but like young and

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Speaker 1: you know, they're wearing these like tiny skimpy outfits and

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Speaker 1: like if if people want to wear outfits like that,

423
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: that's fine, But also they're like really over sexualizing young

424
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: teen girls and showing these body types that, according to

425
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: the movie, is like presenting this ideal standard of beauty

426
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: and all that. Like little girls are going to see

427
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: this and they're thinking, oh, this is you know, this

428
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: is the body type that gets me the prince charming,

429
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: So I have to try to strive for that. And

430
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: it's just like placing these really and there's always this

431
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: moment where in a lot of the Disney Princess movies

432
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, you know, you start out

433
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: and I still think most of the Disney Renaissance Princess

434
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: movies at least start out in okay place of like

435
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: she's your everyday girl, except she's a princess. But there's

436
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: a moment where she gets not exactly like a makeover,

437
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: but you know it's like Bell comes out in a

438
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: dress and all of a sudden, she's romantically desirable in

439
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: a way she wasn't when she was in her everyday clothes.

440
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: Or that happens with ariel Uh and Eric sees her

441
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: in a pink dress and it's like, oh, I like her,

442
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: and you know it's so it's so ingrained, or the

443
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: second you know, Jasmine takes off that she's she when

444
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: she meets a lot and she's wearing this sort of

445
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: like potato potato sack and then she takes it off

446
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, you know, it's it totally catering

447
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: to the male gaze and and just kind of sells

448
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: out the work that they do at the beginning to

449
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: be like, no, she's not like the other girls. But

450
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: then they spend the rest of the movie treating her

451
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: exactly like the other girls. Yeah. Yeah, the Magical Movie Makeover.

452
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: And I there's studies after studies that show that young

453
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: girls take in those messages at such an early age

454
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: and to see this like, here's the ideal beauty standard.

455
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: Your entire goal in life is to find a man

456
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: and get married, and your value is only in your looks. Um. Yeah,

457
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: you get that stuff really early and it sticks with you.

458
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: What affected me the most when I was a kid

459
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: was definitely like the unrealistic bodies like that really resonated

460
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: with me as a kid. And then I think, god,

461
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: this is probably two years ago now, when they started

462
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: to release barbies with different body shapes. Um, there was

463
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: a long feature published about the focus groups of having

464
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: like very young kids playing with barbies with different body

465
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: ships or maybe four or five years old, and already

466
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: they had seen enough princess movies and and and taken

467
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: in enough media to be critical of different body shapes, uh,

468
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: and saying like, you know, like hearing out of a

469
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: four year old mouth, like that's not what Adell is

470
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: supposed to look like, and like she's ugly and all

471
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: this stuff, and it it gets to you so young,

472
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: Like that I was taken aback by like how young

473
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: the kids were when they had already internalized that's not

474
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: how a doll or an ideal looks, which just means

475
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: that they there needs to be such a huge reversal

476
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: in the way that movies and other media consumed by

477
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: children needs to present its characters and like show display

478
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: like many different body types and show them all as

479
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: being um romantically appealing and and it's think not that

480
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: that's the most important thing, but like, because that's what's

481
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: we're also conditioned to think, like, you know, that's at

482
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: least one of the messages that needs to get across right,

483
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: and it's like it takes so long and is to

484
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: some degrees impossible to fully untrained those thoughts. It's like,

485
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's like we're all trying to do the

486
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: work and untrained. But there's like times where I have

487
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: to catch myself in something like that because that's how

488
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: I felt since I was three, right, you know. So

489
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: it's like, well for anyone to I mean, hopefully there

490
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: could be a generation that's completely untouched by that kind

491
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: of stuff, but they're not currently living apparents, so we've

492
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: all been conned by the patriarchate guess in the capitalists

493
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: and all the yeah do works. One thing another thing

494
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: that I I have realized through this show and that

495
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: I already sort of knew, but um, is how so

496
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: many of these princesses they're always in the passive role.

497
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: And um. I went back and I used to write

498
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: a lot as a kid, and every time I would

499
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: write something, the main character was male. And I was

500
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: always kind of confused by that, because you would think

501
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: I would write someone who was female like I was. Um,

502
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: And I think it's because I wanted this like active

503
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: character and almost all of the female characters I had

504
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: saw and consumed through media were passive. Um. Yeah, and

505
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: that's something that I have a lot of friends that

506
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 1: have echoed that, that statement, that they would write things

507
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: and the main character would be male. And it was

508
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: just kind of a strange realization for me that I had. Again,

509
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: it's another thing that I had just taken in and

510
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: had become a part of, like myself. Yeah, you don't

511
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: realize how much it affects you're subconscious until you're an

512
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: adult and you're like, oh no, I've been tricked, and

513
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: it truly happens to like everyone even Yeah, it's god,

514
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to read what I wrote. I was like,

515
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: that's very brave of you. I had a good time.

516
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: I had a I mean, I had a long way

517
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: to go, we shall say, but I I enjoyed it greatly.

518
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: I used to write a character and I was a kid.

519
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: Her name was Neptune Starlet. Oh my gosh, she was.

520
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: She was really tall like me, and she I think

521
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: her thing was that she was a singer, but also

522
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: she was good at chemistry, and she would use chemistry.

523
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: She created some potion to make everyone thinks she was

524
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: a good singer. But she wasn't. So she was a

525
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: woman in stem. She was a woman in stem, and

526
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: she was a mediocre artist, so she kind of contained multitudes. Yeah,

527
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: I like it. Yeah, she would pick it up again

528
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: one of these days, I would read it. I recently

529
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: was watching um the new MST three K three whatever

530
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: it is. Oh yeah, yeah, And there was a movie

531
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: on there, and I know they picked bad movies, but

532
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: there's a movie on that it was so bad, like

533
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: I was getting angry. I can't which one it was called,

534
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: but it was the one that was obviously a knockoff

535
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: of Star Wars. No way, you could not see it.

536
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: And the main character, like all of the women, if

537
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: they were young and of a certain body type, they

538
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: wore essentially like leather straps um and then old women

539
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: wore potato sacks, and then the men got to wear

540
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: like actual real clothes. But the main character, who is

541
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: ostensibly that the lead character, the strongest. She was some commander.

542
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: She was well known. She got captured like six times,

543
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: and she had to get saved by like three different

544
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: dudes and a robot. All the time she's in these

545
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: like leather straps that make no sense. She was just

546
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: spent the whole movie. I couldn't understand. I knew it

547
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: was supposed to be bad, and I was still getting

548
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: Those are my favorite kinds of hate watches, where you're

549
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: just like multiple so many people could have stopped this

550
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: from happening, and there were so many people who were

551
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: involved in anything. But also like, yeah, that that sounds

552
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: like a horrible, like B movie that we can easily

553
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: make fun of, But that's also what happens in like

554
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: high budget Hollywood mainstream A movies, where like women are

555
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: so hyper sexualized and objectified, they are put in positions

556
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: where they have no agency constantly need to be saved,

557
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: Like this happens all the time in like just regular

558
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: Hollywood action movies. Yeah, I mean, like two of our

559
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: favorites that we've covered on the show are when Kirsten

560
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: Dunst is literally caught in a web and is like

561
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: a mobile for the entire climax of Spiderman Too, Like

562
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: she's there but she just can't participate, she has to watch. Uh.

563
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: And then it's which character in Pacific Rim gets launched

564
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: out of the climate. It's so like it's Macae Morey.

565
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I did like that movie, but then but

566
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: it was like so agreed because she was a well

567
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: characterized like she we we knew a lot about her.

568
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: But then when it came down to the final battle,

569
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: I forget how it was made clear in plot, but

570
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: they put her in like this too be thing and

571
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: they were like, sea, it's not safe, and they launched

572
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: her out of the climax of the movie. I was like,

573
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: are you kidding, same thing happens with Ariel, where like, yeah,

574
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: well she's she's I don't know. I thought she's like

575
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: more of an example for me, as like someone who's

576
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: allowed to be like, oh, she can fight and do

577
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: one thing, but she never gets to win that like

578
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: Eric wins the battle, but she's she's there and like

579
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: doing stuff, but she doesn't get the Like is the

580
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: most crazy thing because she is the protagonist of the movie.

581
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: Like any good story telling class will teach you that

582
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: the protagonist of the movie is the one who drives

583
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: the narrative and determines the outcome and is participating in

584
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: the climax of the story. So for her to be

585
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: completely sidelined and for Eric, the love interest, to like

586
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: come in and save the day, like that's that's bad storytelling.

587
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: That's like horrible, it's bad side, it's yeah, it's frustrating.

588
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: It's frustrating that in these things that are sold to

589
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: young girls that the main characters supposedly the the young

590
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: female character, they still don't get like they're not It's

591
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: almost like they're not the main character, right, Yeah, Yeah,

592
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: that's annoying. Yeah. Um, well, we do have some more

593
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: discussion around all of this, but we're going to possibly

594
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: a quick break for word from our sponsor m H

595
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So I wanted to

596
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: come back to this conversation around women and I've been

597
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: talking around women around stepmother's because I've been talking about

598
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: it for a long time. I've been building it up

599
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: because I kind of went on this on the other

600
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: podcast I do Um Savor. We do this series called

601
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Food fairy Tales where we do dramatic readings of fairy

602
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: tales that have food in them, and we found one,

603
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: Um it was pretty dark about a stepmother murdering her

604
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: stepchild and blaming it on the other child, um, and

605
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: then feeding the child to the family. It all works

606
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: out in the end, O good. But I got me

607
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: thinking about this evil stepmother trope. And I I went

608
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: on a research I just wanted to read everything I

609
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: could about it, and so I thought i'd include some

610
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: of this, some of the stuff I learned, and this

611
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: pisode because as we've been talking about, if you look

612
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: at Disney movies, especially the old school classic ones, the

613
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: evil stepmother trope and the idealized perfectly maternal mother trope

614
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: is so prevalent in all of them. And as I

615
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: was doing this research, I tried to think of a

616
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: Disney mother who isn't absent, dead or evil, and I

617
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: thought of Brave the Incredibles toy story. I guess she's

618
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: like there, And I mean these are like pis are Disney. Yeah, Yeah,

619
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: Princess and the Frog, although when I was reading about that,

620
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: she her mother is there, but the story again is

621
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: more like about her relationship with her dad. Yeah, Molanna,

622
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: And these are all newer examples. You'd be hard pressed

623
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: to name one from the like older from the nineties

624
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: and before. Yeah. I recently saw ralph To, which was

625
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: fun because they hadn't seen the first one um. And

626
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: also they're not on the Internet, so I'm sure that

627
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: a lot of that went over their head. But it's

628
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: even a joke and wreck it Ralph too that like

629
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: none of them had mothers almost that was my favorite.

630
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 1: There's two scenes and this isn't a spoiler for anyone

631
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: who hasn't seen um Ralph Breaks the Internet, but because

632
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: one of them they were using as like a trailer

633
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: for the movie basically, but there are two different sequences

634
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: in the movie where all the Disney princesses are like

635
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: hanging out, and in the first one that they've viewed,

636
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: they used as like promo for the movie. They what's

637
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 1: her name? Penelope Yes, and little Sarah Selverman she finds

638
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: herself among all these Disney princesses and they're like questioning

639
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,479
Speaker 1: the validity of like her being a Disney princess also

640
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: or like or something like that, and they're like, wait,

641
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: are you only identified by your relationship to a man?

642
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: And oh, do you have an evil stepmother? Like all

643
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: this different stuff. So they're like, that's calling it having

644
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 1: it both ways, because it's like, Okay, you're calling out

645
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: like all our most popular properties are problematic. It doesn't

646
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: mean they're not going to stop making a jillion dollars

647
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: off of it. They're just referencing their own properties and

648
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 1: like using that to seem cool and make more money.

649
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: It's like when I don't know, like a lot of

650
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: times on like shows on and this is more like

651
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: adults media, but like on TV when they let the

652
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: show like when The Simpsons pokes at the Fox Network,

653
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be like, hey, yeah, we're an evil

654
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: corporation that enables the horrible president, but we're like in

655
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: on it, and it's like, well, so what like then

656
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: stop doing that? You know. I don't know. I used

657
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: to think that was like really edgy and cool and like,

658
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: oh wow, the people who are like doing horrible stuff

659
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: like no it, but that's worse. I don't know. I

660
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: was like, oh, cool, so they know it and it's fine.

661
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: They're still capitalized. They're still like, yeah, we're not going

662
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: to like stop promoting rape culture, but we're like aware

663
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: we're doing it. You're like, okay, that's terrible. Cool. Yeah, yeah,

664
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 1: that was That was an interesting thing of that whole

665
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: that scene of the Disney Princesses in Ralph breaks Internet

666
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: of um yeah, being aware, And I mean I guess

667
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: a few if the criticism is enough that it is

668
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: just generally assumed that these characters are problematic. Um, what

669
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: do you do but poke fun at it? But it

670
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: is odd because it's like you're still doing it though.

671
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: And I know several listeners have written in and said

672
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: that they like the new the newer Disney princesses, but

673
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: they're afraid that it's like almost too much of a

674
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: course correct of liked humanizing princess things that are kind

675
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: of coated as feminine and being like, oh, I hate

676
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: all of these girly things, which yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

677
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: I hadn't really considered it in that way. Um, because

678
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: most of the new princesses, Yeah, I really I don't

679
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: want to be a princess. I hate all this stuff.

680
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: But then what about like the kid who's genuinely feminine

681
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: and enjoys that. Yeah, right right, it's tricky. Yeah, I

682
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 1: mean it does seem like movies in general. And I

683
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: don't dislike this at all, but they're leaning kind of

684
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: hard on again. It's kind of like a different version

685
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: of than not like the other girls, trump of like,

686
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: oh I don't like feminine stuff. I'm not like the

687
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: other princesses. And it's I mean, it's not the princess's fault.

688
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: It's the fault of the story. Yeah, princesses are, and

689
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: but people love to blame women for things easier to

690
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: make it the princess as fault did they was see

691
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: is Utopia. Yeah. I feel like that was an interesting

692
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: kind of deviation from a Disney movie, but like in

693
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: no way Disney princess. And also like they're all animals,

694
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: so you know, but also you know, it's a female character.

695
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: She's a cop. She's like hell bent on like justice

696
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So if I shouldn't say hell,

697
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: but she's if they say if they could say in

698
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: Sleeping Beauty, you can say it. We recently did an

699
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: episode on tabletop games, and there are two studies that

700
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: confirm that you're more likely to find a farm animal

701
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: on the cover of a tabletop game than a female character.

702
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: Oh that's cool. Yeah right, well we all love farm animals,

703
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: so that makes sense. Yeah, nothing against the farm animal community, right,

704
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: So all your farm animal listeners, we don't mean to age,

705
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: but like, who's playing the game's farm animals? Come on?

706
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: Come on? All right? But I went on a tangent here.

707
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: Let's get back to your stepmother's stepmothers. I do have

708
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: some Disney history that I would like to share it

709
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: because I found it really interesting. But first we're going

710
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: to pause for a quick break for word from our sponsor,

711
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So let's get back

712
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: to it. When Walt Disney first started making money after

713
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: this success of Snow White, he purchased a house for

714
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: his parents, and within a month, Disney's mother complained of

715
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: a leak in the furnace, and Disney sent someone out

716
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: to fix it, but still Disney's mom, she voiced these concerns.

717
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: In a couple of days pasted and the housekeeper found

718
00:46:55,239 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: his parents unconscious. His dad survived, but his mom did not, unfortunately,

719
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: and he never really spoke about it, but I would

720
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: say his guilt over it shown through into a lot

721
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 1: of his works that he was involved in um which

722
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: was most of them, most Disney movies up until his death.

723
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not the only one saying that. I'm not

724
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: a scholar by any means, but I read that more

725
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: than one place. And if you I I love this.

726
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: If you take into account our children's movies and movies

727
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: in general work, you've got about eighty to ninety minutes

728
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: to tell the story, and then you really have to

729
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: get your audience invested quickly and often at the heart

730
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: of it, Disney movies are about growing up and the

731
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: quickest way to catalyze growing up is to remove the parents.

732
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: It raises the stakes of the story and it makes

733
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: the character more sympathetic. Um. So the evil stepmother represents

734
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: so much and she she ups the drama. The protagonist

735
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: believes they have some solace, someone that the that will

736
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: comfort and care for them as their mother would have,

737
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: but instead they get the opposite. And it's another lesson

738
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: in the way of growing up to that you can't

739
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: trust everybody kids. It deepens the emotional investment too, because

740
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: evil done by someone you know that should care for

741
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: you is more dramatic storytelling when we're talking about this

742
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: genre of film than evil done by some some random,

743
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 1: not not connected person. Um and it does go work

744
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: great for hard movies that I gotta say, like the

745
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: random villain is terrifying. I feel like there is a

746
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: subtext there too that like has to do with There

747
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 1: is such a strong vibe in uh most kids movies

748
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: that like the love of biological parents is the purest,

749
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 1: truest form of love. And then when it's one step

750
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: removed and it's like more of I mean not that

751
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: like a stepmother is like an adoptive role, but not

752
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: a direct biological connection. It's somehow like sinister or removed

753
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 1: or like not as possible to be as like true

754
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: and powerful because you didn't like breastfeed on them or something.

755
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: You can't trust anyone that you didn't breastfeed on advice

756
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: of the episode and Jamie, that's why I don't trust you.

757
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: I didn't breast fed. I don't trust anyone that's a

758
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: formula baby. I do think and we've talked about this

759
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: a lot, that kind of what touching on what you

760
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: were saying earlier, that um, the father figures get to

761
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: be more complex and they get to have this redemptive arc,

762
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 1: whereas like mother figures and stepmother figures do not. Like

763
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: we just in general have a real anxiety around um,

764
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 1: basically anything in between the perfect mom and a bad mom.

765
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: Like we have this bifurcation of it's either this or

766
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: this and there is nothing in between. And I think

767
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: it's easier to villainize an evil stepmother. It's like a

768
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: way to deal with that anxiety, sure, which isn't fair.

769
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 1: First and and Jamie. You might have brought this up

770
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: in different episodes that we've done, usually on Disney movies,

771
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: but like that's the way like villainizing divorced almost or

772
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: just like the idea of like parents splitting up and

773
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: then you know, getting remarried and introducing like step parents

774
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: into the scenario and it's like a way to be like, no,

775
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: divorce is bad and you know you should stick together.

776
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: It's nuts to me that there isn't more divorced parents

777
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: and even like amically divorce divorce parents because there, I mean,

778
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: it's that's more kids than not have divorced parents, and

779
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: you never see that. And it's like once we see uh,

780
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: divorce parents, that we can get into sub sects of

781
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: divorce parents of like you know, some are more difficult

782
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: than others others or just become a co parenting thing.

783
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: And it's just like, yeah, the the way parenting is

784
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: represented in all these movies, Like it's easier for a

785
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: writer to kind of like where you were saying, get

786
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: the parents out of the way to raise the tension.

787
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: But it's like, no parents are tense there. That's true,

788
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: there's a lot of come from there um or you

789
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: could go full Jimmy Neutron and have the kids take

790
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: over the world. Jimmy Neutron, Jimmy Neutron Stand I Love

791
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: Jimmy Neutron on an all female reboot of Jimmy Neutron,

792
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: Jamie Neutron, Jamie Neutron, I can get behind that um.

793
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: And another thing that you you both mentioned earlier is um.

794
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: A lot of these are these Disney movies are based

795
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: on Gram's fairy tales, and most of those stories were

796
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: orally translated, transcribed and published, and sometimes the grand brothers.

797
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: They made these serious creative decisions, and most of them

798
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 1: were moral like based in their morals, their personal morals. So,

799
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: for instance, in the oral stories of Sleeping Beauty and

800
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: Snow White, there was not an evil stepmother. It was

801
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: an evil biological mother, but Graham changed that. It has

802
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 1: been that way ever since. At the time when these

803
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: stories were being transcribed, marriage was less about romantic love

804
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: and much more of an economical decision. If you were lucky.

805
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: There was romance too, but it was the secondary thing.

806
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: And since women for the most part had no way

807
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: to make money or to own property, marriage was their

808
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: only option in the world. Which is this story that

809
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: we're seeing in Disney play out over and over again

810
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: with these princesses. And another thing to consider is that

811
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: at the time, the mortality rate of childbirth was really high,

812
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: and it wasn't uncommon to grow up without a mother

813
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 1: and for a stepmother to enter the picture, and if

814
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: the stepmother had a child of their own, they might

815
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: prioritize that child to make sure that they got some

816
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: inheritance or just make sure they got some inheritance themselves.

817
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,919
Speaker 1: Um so, yeah, I remember it was a financial thing. Yeah,

818
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: that's true. But the fact that these Disney movies introduced

819
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: romance into the narrative where you know, in airy tales

820
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: there might have been and might not have been. You

821
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: can also, like when you're adapting things what which is

822
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: what Disney has often done. You can change the source

823
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: material and like make adjustments to it and you know

824
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: the era it's being released in, and like introduce mothers

825
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: and back into the picture and stuff like that, which

826
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: they do, but it's like very selective the things that

827
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: they do to Like, the happy ending in most Disney

828
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: movies is not an adaptation of the text, like The

829
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: Little Mermaid ends with the Little Mermaid a coded suicide

830
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,479
Speaker 1: where she turns into ocean foam because she can't be

831
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: with the prince. So it's it's not that they're not there,

832
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: that they're like, no, we have to be loyal to

833
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: the text. There they're disloyal to the text, which is

834
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: which is fine. But it's like, well, if you're going

835
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: to change it to like the happy ending in the

836
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 1: marriage and the whole bit, then like change others f

837
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: t like it's nine for crying out out currently today

838
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 1: I think it's Yeah, I think that's correct. Yeah, I

839
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 1: mean yes, so much of the violence of the grim

840
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: fairy tales they did change, but not the other things,

841
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: not the women you're needed to get married. But um Also,

842
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: children were treated differently at the time, too much less affectionately.

843
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: They were seen as like a source of labor. And

844
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: if you look at the case of Cinderella in the

845
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: context of when it was written from the eyes of

846
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: the evil stepmother, the only chance her daughters had for

847
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: success was to marry into money. And so when the

848
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: ball comes around with the chance to marry a prince

849
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: which Cinderella is too young to go to, of course

850
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: the stepmother is going to say no. And of course

851
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: Cinderella isn't gonna like that, and of of course it's

852
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 1: not an excuse for abusive behavior. But I did find

853
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 1: a really interesting essay looking at Cinderella from the stepmother's perspective,

854
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: and it was a fund read. A fund read. Also

855
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: that story posits that perhaps Cinderella will one day be

856
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: a stepmother herself, and her journey will begin a new

857
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: I'd be down. I'd be down for that adaptation of

858
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: like can she break the cycle or will she just

859
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: perpetuate the boxic cycle that has taken up her family?

860
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: And that's another movie where you know, Disney changed a

861
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: lot of this source material or made it less violent,

862
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: because like in the original one, that's like the step

863
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: sisters are like song off their toes so that they

864
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 1: can fit into the glass slippers and stuff like that

865
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: are weird, Just like, oh god, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, honestly,

866
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 1: like they were trying to they had a goal, trying

867
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: to get the call accomplis. Kudos to them, you know, Yeah,

868
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: I love there. I'm sure that there's been I mean,

869
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 1: there's been plenty of like, you know, what's the word

870
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: I hate? Oh jeez, I'm going to use a word

871
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: I hate and I can't even remember what a post

872
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 1: modern geez louise horrible. But like the sort of things

873
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: where it's like wicked or you know, a look back.

874
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: It's just why Gregory McGuire is a bazillionaire, but like

875
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 1: a look back, like all the bad ladies who actually

876
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: were bad asses, And it's like, al right, sure, I

877
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: mean it's like a step in the right direction and

878
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: like analyzing, you know, oh, the way these stories are

879
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 1: originally written or adapted or whatever. We're reductive and we're

880
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: villainizing uh, female characters usually for just being female characters,

881
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: or you know, amping up stereotypes and all that. Uh.

882
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 1: Although you know I would I'll say, I don't need

883
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: any more Gregory McGuire's takes on why the bad girls

884
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 1: were actually good. I'd prefer more of like the moan

885
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: attack of just creating a new female character that instead

886
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: of you know, going back a hundred years and continually

887
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: because the more you like, whether you're making a good

888
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: point or not, the more you talk about uh stuff

889
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: like this, you're still giving them staying power to some extent.

890
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: By uh So it's just like, yeah, if you ignore people,

891
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: they eventually become irrelevant or angry if they have money.

892
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: Another thing I read when I was doing all this

893
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: research is uh that four children blended families can be

894
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: more difficult for them to figure out if you're watching

895
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: it from a young age um and it involves these nuanced,

896
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,919
Speaker 1: complex feelings and conflicting emotions. And it kind of reminds

897
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: me that argument about some people I know say that

898
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: that's why so many people love zombie movies is because

899
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: they think that it's simpler, Like it's more I don't

900
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: have to worry about getting money. I just have to

901
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 1: worry about surviving. Perhaps that's just me. I watch a

902
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: lot of horror, but it didn't remind me of that

903
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: that kind of like, well, it's it's simpler to dislike

904
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: the step mom. And these these fairy tales that Graham

905
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: was the grand brothers were transcribing did represent anxiety's children had,

906
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: like wondering where their next meal was coming from and

907
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: handling Gredel subconsciously wanting to be rid of the parent

908
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 1: when reaching adolescence. This makes the story more authentic emotionally

909
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: to a child. I feel like I did a whole

910
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: I could do you teach a short lecture on how

911
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: to write movies for children one oh one. The point

912
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: worth making is they weren't meant for children originally, but

913
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: when they were repurposed four children, it did it translated well,

914
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: those parts of it. And while modern movies have made

915
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: strides and having a positive mother figure as part of

916
00:58:55,880 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: their stories, these trips are still everywhere finding emo. For instance,

917
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: the mom dies in like two minutes, and it's used

918
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: as a way to showcase how great the dad is

919
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: because he becomes the main character um and our society

920
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: laud's men for being a great dad. And it's just

921
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: sort of expected that women will be mothering a child

922
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: in their care, and like any imperfect mothering is immediate villain,

923
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: where like perfect fathering is so tolerated and almost expected

924
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: in the like You're tritons and potents and all in

925
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: all one article I read about this whole thing positive

926
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 1: that a single father ups the drama because in a

927
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: probably subconscious part of our brain, we expect him to

928
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: fail and to mess up, whereas a single mother we

929
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: subconsciously think is too capable and we'll be able to

930
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: figure things out. Again, I read this, it isn't a

931
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 1: point I'm making but I did find it an interesting

932
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: point worth including in here. Yeah, and that's tricky because

933
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, women are askedome and we're good at things,

934
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: and men's stink and are bad at things. But like,

935
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean that's a huge oversimplification. Yeah, Like, yeah, it is.

936
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: It's not okay that these like, um, these standards are

937
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: placed on men and women and and moms and dads

938
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,919
Speaker 1: and and how it's like, yeah, if you're a parent

939
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: who's a woman, you're a You're automatically expected to be

940
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: like the best mother in the world, whereas like if

941
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: a father puts in like a tiny bit of extra effort,

942
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: we're like, wow, good job, daddy, You're the best dad

943
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: in the world. So yeah, it's weird. Yeah, And something

944
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: else we kind of touched on earlier is this whole

945
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: like woman versus woman thing, because I do think it's

946
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: interesting that in a lot of these examples, the villain

947
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: is a woman, even though well, yeah, and the protagonist

948
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: is a woman too, and the villain is usually an

949
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: older woman who envies the protagonist. Youth and beauty are

950
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,800
Speaker 1: talents perhaps or all of that, and that is what

951
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: drives her dash really decisions like snow white mirror, mirror

952
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? And

953
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: when the mirror says snow white, that's when her stepmother,

954
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: of course, like we'll kill her. Then the most reasonable response.

955
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: It's so fast she does not have to think about it,

956
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, then of course we're gonna want

957
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: to kill her. It's just such a It drives home

958
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: how our value as women, the value of beauty, like

959
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,760
Speaker 1: that is your power, that is your value of youth

960
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: and beauty that she would just immediately there's this threat

961
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: destroy it. Yeah. Yeah, it's so bizarre. And it's like

962
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: that feels like as like crappy as that is, that

963
01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: feels rooted in some like sort of grounded things that

964
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: still happen today. Right. I feel like there's even like

965
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: a you know, who's the fairest of them all argument

966
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: that could be applied to uh, female coworkers, where it's

967
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: like female coworkers are very frequently put against each other,

968
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: um and that being rooted in that's what you're told

969
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: and also rooted in there's just less space for women

970
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,919
Speaker 1: in any marginalized group in the workplace. So it's like, yeah,

971
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: all the white guys in a workplace are usually all

972
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: friends because there's always going to be enough room for them.

973
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: But it's like a weird it feels like a weird

974
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: subtweet of a narrative to see, like women turn on

975
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: each other so quickly, and that's the expectation because there's

976
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: only so much room in the world for us, we're told. Yeah,

977
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: And I want to add in here that in the

978
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: fairy tale version of snow White the Stepmother, I think

979
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 1: it's snow White. Um, she is sentenced to execution and

980
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: they put these stone clogs on her feet and there's

981
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: like hot holes in them, and she has to dance

982
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 1: to death as her feet burn vaguely oh no, which

983
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: is brutal, brutal to death. Mm hmmm. Yeah. Man, let's

984
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: just way today night. I feel that way sometimes dancing sometimes, Yeah,

985
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: on the on the dance floor, feet just wildly boiling

986
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: about Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we've all experienced it.

987
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: We could also go into a whole thing about what's

988
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:47,479
Speaker 1: seeing this, This story of the evil stepmother says about

989
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: our anxieties around adoption and non traditional families. I think

990
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: that is worth a whole episode. And these tropes have

991
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: real world impact. I read account after account written by

992
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: stepmother's about how they see children internalize these tropes pretty

993
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: much from the time they can see Cinderella, and how

994
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: they step mothers have had to deal with them, and

995
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: how it undermines their confidence as a parent. It's reflected

996
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: in our language too. For many of us, the word

997
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: stepmother automatically comes with evil before it. If you just

998
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: think of stepmother, it will co locate with the word evil. Um.

999
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: In some languages, stepmother translates to lesser mother, and in

1000
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,160
Speaker 1: American sign language it's a combination of the words fake

1001
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: and mother. And how can that not impacts how you

1002
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: see yourself and how confident you are in your ability

1003
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 1: to be this child's mother? And what is already a

1004
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: difficult situation? Yeah, right, that I mean, that's such. Yeah,

1005
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: I mean divorce and like introducing you know, new family

1006
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: members into your family dynamic is already a tricky situation

1007
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: to navigate. And then to also like have all this

1008
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: language that supports Yeah, stepmothers are yeah, like evil and

1009
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: in lesser than and fake and you know, wannabes and

1010
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Is that's not good. We've got to

1011
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: change that. Yeah, it's like there's yeah, like what we

1012
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: were saying a little bit of just like yeah, the

1013
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 1: only pure form of love is from biological parents to

1014
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: biological child and anything. And even within that, fathers can

1015
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: still be kind of bad at it. Um, But like

1016
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: the love of a biological mother, there's no there's no alternative, right,

1017
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 1: which is just, I mean hurtful to a lot of people.

1018
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:47,439
Speaker 1: I mean everyone knows someone who's stepmom, uh did did

1019
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: more for them than their biological mom. Like, it's just

1020
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: it just it is the world sometimes. That was my

1021
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: favorite part of Frozen was when like, because I've been

1022
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 1: wanting them to do that forever, when her true love

1023
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 1: was their sister. Yeah, it was just refreshing finally something different, right. Um.

1024
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 1: And one last note on on stepmothers is that I

1025
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: also read because if it wasn't clear, I am not

1026
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: a mother or a stepmother. So this is through through

1027
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: things that I read online, Um, that they often contend

1028
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: with the lack of support, lack of role models, lack

1029
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: of clarity about their role, and those higher expectations that

1030
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: we've been talking about that we place on women as parents.

1031
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 1: So we don't need to add all of these these

1032
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: Disney movies were the only stepmother we're seeing is not

1033
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: a good one? Right? Yeah? Yeah, well I think we've

1034
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 1: we've just about we've covered a lot of a lot

1035
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 1: of ground, I think, so, I think. So, um, is

1036
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 1: there is there anything else you want to touch on

1037
01:06:56,080 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: before we close out here? Thanks? This was really fun.

1038
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, thank you both so much for joining us.

1039
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: This has been wonderful. Of course we had a blast. Yes,

1040
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: anytime I can. I have said before, I have like

1041
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: a feminist movie night where I make my friends and

1042
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, we're going to get drunk and we're

1043
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: going to watch this movie and I'm gonna tell you

1044
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: all of my feminist thoughts about it. Any time you

1045
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: want to be on the show, I am going to

1046
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: just go ahead and throw out there that if you

1047
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: want somebody as a guest when the Avengers is coming out,

1048
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: I got it. I got it. Will be should because

1049
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 1: there's a the fourth Avengers movies coming out I think

1050
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 1: in April. Avengers. Yeah, we'll have you on for that.

1051
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 1: That'll be great. Yeah, so excited. Where can people find you?

1052
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 1: You can find us online across all of the platforms

1053
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: at back, delcast, B, E, C, H, D, E, L,

1054
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: m M, and you can find us individually. I'm on

1055
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Caitlin Durante Kate with a se

1056
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Speaker 1: uh and I'm on Twitter at Jamie Loft as Help

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Speaker 1: and Instagram at Jamie christ Superstar Awesome. Well, thank you

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Speaker 1: again for joining us. Listeners go check out their show

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Speaker 1: um and if you would like to write to us

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Speaker 1: and listeners, you can. Our email is mom Stuff at

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. You can also find us

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at

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Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always to our

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Speaker 1: producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening