Speaker 1: Native Lampod is a production of iHeart Radio in partnership
Speaker 1: with Reason Choice Media. Welcome home, y'all. This is episode
Speaker 1: one seventeen of Native Lampod, where we give you our
Speaker 1: breakdown of all things politics and culture. I am your
Speaker 1: host today, Bacari Sellers, and I'm joined by my co host,
Speaker 1: none other than Angela Raie and Andrew Gillham. And I'm
Speaker 1: excited to actually have a better host than both of
Speaker 1: them joining us today. To a Mika Mollory, what's going.
Speaker 2: On, Well, we'll take family. I'm so excited to be
Speaker 2: here with you all. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Welcome home, says we welcome home. This is going to
Speaker 3: be the youngest looking woman in the.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's putting no respect on her name.
Speaker 4: This is the incredible co host of TMI podcast. She's
Speaker 4: a legendary activist, a best selling author, not of one,
Speaker 4: but two books. She is our dear sister, friend and
Speaker 4: comrade who's known forever. We're thrilled to have her join
Speaker 4: us as a co host today, but is to South Carolina.
Speaker 3: For me, I don't know was going to mention with
Speaker 3: her two books that he also is a two times.
Speaker 1: I was not going to do that. I only do
Speaker 1: that to you and thank you for putting thank you
Speaker 1: for putting some respect on that. I also think that
Speaker 1: sometimes like the work that you do speak for you.
Speaker 1: There's no doubt that Tamika is a heroine of our day.
Speaker 1: And we appreciate all the.
Speaker 5: Work that you do, and so you for sure, and
Speaker 5: especially my sister, you know how much I love you.
Speaker 5: I work for Angela Rye regularly, just so everyone knows
Speaker 5: y'all work.
Speaker 2: I just I'm so grateful that you all feel called.
Speaker 1: Yes, passion, You're grateful, grateful you call us off. Look, Tomika,
Speaker 1: we still we're still smoothing this out, but we actually
Speaker 1: had this new part of our show that we love.
Speaker 1: It's called for your Situational Awareness y F y A.
Speaker 1: I've been messing up the acronym for a long period
Speaker 1: of time, but we like to run down. It's n
Speaker 1: s f W not safe for work. That's what I
Speaker 1: call it. I don't know these acronyms be bothering me,
Speaker 1: but that's.
Speaker 2: How you know, be up to no good, not safe
Speaker 2: for work.
Speaker 1: That's how No, that's not how you catch the case.
Speaker 1: But sometimes when you're watching something in a little virus
Speaker 1: screen pop up. I don't care about that virus. Go ahead,
Speaker 1: they can watch it with me anyway. Oh, anyway, we're
Speaker 1: gonna get started because this past weekend we had the Grammys.
Speaker 1: I think everybody watched the Grammys. The Grammys were so dope.
Speaker 1: It was represented with diversity. We needed it. Our good
Speaker 1: friend Jelly Roll actually won some Grammys and was.
Speaker 2: Damn good friend.
Speaker 1: I mean during the South, we say our good I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, he.
Speaker 3: Did the reverse in the South. Whatever you say, they mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, bless your bless your heart, bless you, bless y'all.
Speaker 1: But he was up the Bible thump in Jesus, Jesus,
Speaker 1: Jesus in his acceptance speech, and then they asked him
Speaker 1: a question about ice, and he forgot all about Jesus.
Speaker 1: We were all the class.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I know they're gonna try to kick me off here,
Speaker 6: so just let me try to get this out. First
Speaker 6: of all, Jesus, I hear you, and I'm listening, Lord,
Speaker 6: I am listening Lord. Second of all, I want to
Speaker 6: thank my beautiful wife. I would have never changed my
Speaker 6: life without you. I'd ended up dead or in jail.
Speaker 6: I'd have killed myself if it wasn't for you and Jesus.
Speaker 6: I thank you for that. I thank you for my label.
Speaker 6: Broken Boat a country radio.
Speaker 7: Baby.
Speaker 3: What's up y'all?
Speaker 8: All Republic John and Neely, we did it.
Speaker 1: Baby.
Speaker 6: There was a time in my life y'all that I
Speaker 6: was I was broken. That's why I wrote this album.
Speaker 6: I didn't think I had a chance, y'all. There was
Speaker 6: days that I thought the darkest things. I was a
Speaker 6: horrible human. There was a moment in my life that
Speaker 6: all I had was a Bible this big in a
Speaker 6: radio the same size, and a six by eight foot
Speaker 6: sell And I believe that those two things could change
Speaker 6: my life. I believe that music had the power to
Speaker 6: change my life, and God had the power to change
Speaker 6: my life.
Speaker 1: And I want to.
Speaker 8: Tell y'all right now, Jesus is for everybody. Jesus is
Speaker 8: not on by one political party. Jesus is not owned
Speaker 8: by no music label. Jesus is Jesus, and anybody can
Speaker 8: have a relationship with him.
Speaker 3: I love you, Lord.
Speaker 1: And so that was the Bible thumping on stage. It
Speaker 1: was a lot of Jesus, and I was with him.
Speaker 1: I clap, you know. I like to be sanctified every
Speaker 1: now and then, but this was him afterwards talking about
Speaker 1: ice right.
Speaker 6: Every now and then, you're so judgment I can tell
Speaker 6: you that people shouldn't care to hear my opinion. Man,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm a dumb redneck. I haven't watched enough.
Speaker 6: I didn't have a phone for eighteen months. I've had
Speaker 6: one for four months and don't have social media. I
Speaker 6: hate to be the artist in static aloof but I
Speaker 6: just I've come so disconnected from what's happening, and I'm
Speaker 6: just not a I grew up in a house of
Speaker 6: like insane pandemonium and like like I didn't even know
Speaker 6: politics were fucking real until I was in my mid
Speaker 6: twenties in jail. Like that's how disconnected when you grow
Speaker 6: up in a drug addict household. You think we like
Speaker 6: have common calls about what's happening in world politics, Like
Speaker 6: we're just trying to find a way to survive. Man,
Speaker 6: you know, And I have a lot to say about it.
Speaker 6: I'm going to in the next week and everybody's gonna
Speaker 6: hear exactly what I have to say about it in
Speaker 6: the most loud and clear way I've ever spoke in
Speaker 6: my life. So I look forward to it. Thank you
Speaker 6: for bringing it up.
Speaker 3: What was the question to him.
Speaker 2: Comment about Ice.
Speaker 1: They asked about Ice and ice attention and what he's
Speaker 1: seeing in the streets, and that was his response.
Speaker 5: Can I just say his was jelly rolling. He was
Speaker 5: yelling all around, here's my thing.
Speaker 4: I just don't understand how he's like, I only had
Speaker 4: a fall for four months.
Speaker 2: Friends.
Speaker 4: In the last four months, Ice has wage war on
Speaker 4: this country.
Speaker 2: So you should absolutely.
Speaker 3: Know what's good in.
Speaker 2: Minnesota and in Tennessee. They in Tennessee.
Speaker 4: This dude lives in Tennessee with Bunny Hopper, his wife
Speaker 4: or whatever her name is.
Speaker 2: So he ought to know.
Speaker 4: He ought to know what's happening with Ice, and he
Speaker 4: ought to know something about it since he probably since
Speaker 4: he said he was in detention, he should know what
Speaker 4: he should know what it means to have your rights
Speaker 4: protected or violated.
Speaker 2: He should have a thought. He does know. He does
Speaker 2: know for sure, So he said, clears a lot he lies.
Speaker 5: And furthermore, he's in pictures and videos with Trump and
Speaker 5: MAGA stuff, and like they have now exposed him on
Speaker 5: social media that he's actually hanging out with these folks.
Speaker 2: So his phone was working somehow.
Speaker 5: To get him these other events that he went to
Speaker 5: so cut it, cut it.
Speaker 2: He was jelly rolling.
Speaker 1: He was he was, he was jelly rolling. I'm actually
Speaker 1: a jelly row fan. I listened to him while I run.
Speaker 1: I love his music, and I actually go back to
Speaker 1: jelly roll.
Speaker 2: We just started a boy off.
Speaker 1: He used to he used to, He used to wrap.
Speaker 1: He started out wrapping with three six months in them.
Speaker 1: Now they check them stats in Tennessee. We're gonna We're
Speaker 1: gonna move right along to the Secretary of War, Secretary
Speaker 1: of Defense, whatever y'all want to call him. And this
Speaker 1: is a unique thing because it ties into the movie Milania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, last yeah, last week Keg's breath, but
Speaker 1: Pete's head's gaff actually met with he actually I can't
Speaker 1: even say, it don't matter to mean And the black
Speaker 1: guy had to be overly qualified and he had to
Speaker 1: be Pete. So yeah, so anyway, then you know, we
Speaker 1: know Jeff Bezos spent seventy million dollars on Milania to
Speaker 1: buy the rights and to advertise it, and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, the next week, Blue Origin, Jeff Bezos,
Speaker 1: Pete Hesgeth are having a meeting about defense contracts. Take
Speaker 1: a look at this clip Jerry, it's so much reportant.
Speaker 7: It's great to see you.
Speaker 3: Are you doing all right?
Speaker 6: Well, Dave Limm, Jeff, thank you for being here.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Welcome. The grift continues. What do y'all
Speaker 1: think about Milania and watching this grift play out in
Speaker 1: real life?
Speaker 2: Well, first, first, let's just acknowledge what happened.
Speaker 4: Pete Haig Seth and Jeff Bezos are shaking hands, They're
Speaker 4: greeting one another.
Speaker 2: It's looking real friendly and like.
Speaker 3: At at Bezos's.
Speaker 1: It's at Blue Origin. It's at Bezos in California, in California. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's at Blue Origin. And the cop purpose of the
Speaker 1: conversation was to talk about Blue Origins defense contracts with
Speaker 1: the United States military and others.
Speaker 4: I think that the point here is that we have
Speaker 4: to understand whether or not him paying so much money
Speaker 4: for a documentary that only made seven million dollars, Right,
Speaker 4: seven million dollars.
Speaker 2: It's debut week, and it cost how much.
Speaker 1: Makari they paid for They paid forty for the rights
Speaker 1: directly to Milania, which are a lot for documentary rights,
Speaker 1: and then they paid thirty five million for marketing.
Speaker 4: Yes, so that's a whopping seventy five million dollars and
Speaker 4: it got back seven million as.
Speaker 3: The market only on truth Social Well.
Speaker 4: I mean Amazon was responsible for marketing, not Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: So you're just saying what they spent.
Speaker 1: Apparently, though, let me say this now, they did buy
Speaker 1: a lot of seats. They bought seats in bulk, and
Speaker 1: it is this is a weird thing. But it's the
Speaker 1: highest selling opening weekend for documentary in ten years. But
Speaker 1: it's still only sold seven million dollars.
Speaker 4: Well, how many documentaries have a seventy five million dollar
Speaker 4: price tag, so it's not really apples apples one two.
Speaker 4: I think the point here for those who might be
Speaker 4: having a slower day is that they may have spent
Speaker 4: seventy five million dollars as an investment into Blue Origin.
Speaker 4: I think one other thing that was brought to our attention,
Speaker 4: and I should have pulled this headline for you, Nick,
Speaker 4: but I didn't. Washington Posts, in the midst of this
Speaker 4: seventy five million dollar Amazon spend just laid off their
Speaker 4: entire sports department.
Speaker 2: They just laid off.
Speaker 4: I have a friend of mine who was laid off
Speaker 4: from Amazon just a couple of days ago. So Amazon
Speaker 4: has money to spend on Milanya, but they don't have
Speaker 4: money to spend on keeping their employees or at the
Speaker 4: Washington Post, which as you all know, hopefully Jeff Bezos
Speaker 4: now owns.
Speaker 5: And keep in mind that there have been issues with
Speaker 5: Amazon even before this, labor issues that have been going
Speaker 5: on for a long time. And you know, at some
Speaker 5: point we've got to unravel ourselves from these companies that
Speaker 5: just don't respect our communities, you know, and I know
Speaker 5: Amazon is a hard one because everybody is into convenience.
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, such as we've done.
Speaker 5: Target, we have to show these CEOs and these companies
Speaker 5: that we're not just gonna let you take our money
Speaker 5: and then mistreat our communities and our people on the
Speaker 5: backside or on the front side.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, yeah, you know, to me, God, we didn't
Speaker 3: acknowledge it, the leadership you've taken and help you move
Speaker 3: our community away from dependency on you know, on Target
Speaker 3: accepting of course Bacari, the online ordering of your wife's line. Right.
Speaker 3: But the truth is is for those of us who
Speaker 3: may draw conclusion, and it's because of the loss of money,
Speaker 3: the you know, the you know, just sort of bleeding
Speaker 3: money away from from companies. This man, the wealthiest in
Speaker 3: the world. He could probably keep every one of these
Speaker 3: enterprises going. All two hundred of those employees at the
Speaker 3: Washington Post had just got the notice, the fact that
Speaker 3: he just set, you know, close nearly seventy brick and
Speaker 3: mortar stores, these Amazon stops and Amazon stores around the
Speaker 3: country and only announced it last month. At the end
Speaker 3: of last month, these people lost their jobs February one,
Speaker 3: the start of Black History Month. So no notice, no respect,
Speaker 3: no respect for workers' rights, no concern for what happens
Speaker 3: to regular, everyday people who are slaving for him to
Speaker 3: buy Italy for a weekend or whatever it is that
Speaker 3: he chooses to spend his you know, his money on.
Speaker 3: I just hate the fact that the disrespect is just
Speaker 3: so obvious, it's so in our face, and it comes
Speaker 3: without apology. The grift is loud and clear for everybody
Speaker 3: to see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, they spent seventy five million dollars
Speaker 1: on the film Malania, paying that to Donald Trump and
Speaker 1: his family to curry favor for defense contracts. Today, just
Speaker 1: as we're taping this, there is a reporter, Lizzie Johnson,
Speaker 1: who is actually in Kiev in a war zone, and
Speaker 1: she was laid off as we are writing this live
Speaker 1: from a war zone. Let's think about that.
Speaker 2: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, Tamika, I love you to death. We
Speaker 1: don't have a good track record over the past seven
Speaker 1: days with our guest hosts and our guests on the show.
Speaker 1: But we love Georgia Ford, we love Don Lemmon. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to laugh not to cry. But both of
Speaker 1: them found themselves in the peril and the and the
Speaker 1: bullseye of the Department of Justice for some utter bullshit.
Speaker 1: And we hope and we pray that bullshit doesn't befollow
Speaker 1: anybody that we love or door like it did Don
Speaker 1: Lemon or Georgia Ford. Uh, talk about this for a minute.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to let he says that to say.
Speaker 5: By the way, I'm just trying to think to jail
Speaker 5: right he I was first.
Speaker 3: I was so said, they tried to get me to girls.
Speaker 5: You know, at some point it becomes a badger out here,
Speaker 5: like you.
Speaker 1: Know, but can I ask you a question about it,
Speaker 1: like can you talk about that? I mean, we don't
Speaker 1: really have a clip during this period or graphic per se,
Speaker 1: but I did think it was necessary. And Andrew actually
Speaker 1: brought this up in our meeting, it was necessary to
Speaker 1: talk about it, but talk about the sacrifice briefly that
Speaker 1: it takes to be on the front lines of the movements,
Speaker 1: because people say, oh, I want to be a part
Speaker 1: of it, but they don't understand the sacrifice on family.
Speaker 1: Talk about that brief you know.
Speaker 5: What, It kind of made me a little emotional just now,
Speaker 5: just because I was trying to take myself back to
Speaker 5: those moments where I have been arrested and I have claustophobia.
Speaker 5: You know, being in a patty wagon is not something
Speaker 5: that I ever want to do.
Speaker 2: And if you know anything about me, some of the
Speaker 2: folks who've been in the paddywagon with me, when they
Speaker 2: put you between where.
Speaker 5: You're on one side of a little I don't know
Speaker 5: what that divider is, which makes it even the partition,
Speaker 5: which makes it tighter, and then they close a game
Speaker 5: and then they closed the door. The folks who've been
Speaker 5: in there with me have had to help sing me through,
Speaker 5: you know, help get me through that experience, because it's
Speaker 5: not something that I ever wanted to do to myself,
Speaker 5: but I've had to in order to really be a
Speaker 5: part of the sacrifice that it takes to bring awareness
Speaker 5: to certain causes. And when I was watching the video
Speaker 5: of Georgia for and the way that DEA offices, which
Speaker 5: I meant to call you, Angela and say, help me
Speaker 5: understand that, because I've not ever witnessed DEA agents going
Speaker 5: to fulfill a warrant about this issue, Like, it just
Speaker 5: didn't make sense to me. I'm from the hood. When
Speaker 5: DEA agents show up. Somebody was killed, you know what
Speaker 5: I'm saying. It was drugs somebody, right, it's something big
Speaker 5: has happened. And watching the experience of what was going
Speaker 5: on in her home then her daughter speaking afterwards, it
Speaker 5: traumatized me so much because even when my family knows
Speaker 5: that I'm going out there and they aware I've made
Speaker 5: everyone aware of what's happening, they still are traumatized every
Speaker 5: single time because you never know what can happen once
Speaker 5: a person is put into police custody. And so I
Speaker 5: felt really for her, and of course for Don. I know,
Speaker 5: Don Lemon in his good suit did not need to
Speaker 5: be in the back of a police cargo to be
Speaker 5: in a precinct, you know, or wherever they were overnight,
Speaker 5: and it's just unfortunate. And I think the last thing
Speaker 5: I'll say, is that what it really did was crystallized
Speaker 5: for me how dangerous this moment is. That even though
Speaker 5: the killing of Renee Good is terrible, terrible, the killing
Speaker 5: of Keith Porter and the names go on.
Speaker 2: Alex pretty is terrible.
Speaker 5: And then when you add and compound the issue of
Speaker 5: journalists being arrested that are trying to tell the stories,
Speaker 5: we know that we have entered the real, real phases
Speaker 5: of fascism in this country.
Speaker 2: And I just hope everybody.
Speaker 3: Is paying attention.
Speaker 1: That's real.
Speaker 2: That's amazing to me.
Speaker 4: Next time you hold your mic up, just hold the
Speaker 4: mic part up so it's still out there. You go,
Speaker 4: and then Bokar, you're still in the middle of your clips.
Speaker 4: I just want to remind you took a significant detour.
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna cut to mik Off. I don't know
Speaker 1: what you think over here, but were gonna keep it
Speaker 1: moving because because because one of the other things that
Speaker 1: has been going on for the past week is the
Speaker 1: release of the Epstein files, they finally got around there
Speaker 1: releasing the Epstein files. Ironically enough, they released a lot
Speaker 1: of pictures, they released a lot of emails. Did this
Speaker 1: man ever text anything? I mean, he emailed like he texted,
Speaker 1: like we text. It was kind of wild to see.
Speaker 1: Some of the things that came out, though, were mind boggling,
Speaker 1: and they actually released some things about Donald Trump. He's
Speaker 1: mentioned over a thousand times that they then went back
Speaker 1: and tried to pull back, but they couldn't. Somebody else
Speaker 1: that was mentioned was Bill Gates. Listen to this clip
Speaker 1: about Melinda French Gates and some of the things she
Speaker 1: went through allegedly with her husband, Bill Gates, who we
Speaker 1: all know.
Speaker 9: The emails in the files suggest that Bill Gates had
Speaker 9: additional affairs, and that he tried to get me dedication
Speaker 9: to treat a sexually transmitted infection, and that he was
Speaker 9: going to give you the medicine without you knowing. His
Speaker 9: representative has said all of this is false. It is
Speaker 9: not on you to have to respond to the details
Speaker 9: of that alleged behavior. But I wonder what your dominant
Speaker 9: emotion is when you read these news articles with these details.
Speaker 10: Sad just unbelievable sadness. Unbelievable sadness.
Speaker 11: Right, and again I'm able to take my own sadness
Speaker 11: those young girls and say, my god, how did they
Speaker 11: how did that happen to those girls, right, And so
Speaker 11: for me, it's just sadness. Sadness for you know, I've left,
Speaker 11: I had, I left my marriage, I had to leave
Speaker 11: my marriage. I wanted to leave my marriage.
Speaker 10: And so it's just sad. That's the truth, right, And
Speaker 10: it's kind of like, uh, at least for me, I've.
Speaker 11: Been able to move on in life. And I hope
Speaker 11: there's some justice for those now women. Right we see
Speaker 11: them standing up in front of microphones in DC. What
Speaker 11: they went through is just unimaginable.
Speaker 12: I think.
Speaker 1: Angela T. Andrew, I mean what I like the way
Speaker 1: that the first of all that question came from PBS,
Speaker 1: which I thought in itself was bold. Second, I love
Speaker 1: the way she framed it by saying dominant emotion. What
Speaker 1: do you think about seeing some of these Epstein files
Speaker 1: with the most powerful men in the world even talking
Speaker 1: to him about getting antibiotics for std STI.
Speaker 3: I mean, this one, this is clearly a world that
Speaker 3: we don't know about like that does this this? I
Speaker 3: mean when you look at the the scale, the size,
Speaker 3: the impact of the men from the highest individuals in
Speaker 3: banking and education and politics, finance, shit, you know, global royalty.
Speaker 3: I mean, this man had a reach that I mean,
Speaker 3: I just again, it's clearly a world that we're not
Speaker 3: necessarily privy to. You mentioned the number of mentions Donald
Speaker 3: Trump had in these emails. It is worth note that
Speaker 3: his name, aside from Epstein itself, is the second highest
Speaker 3: set of mentions in this second release of three million documents. Again,
Speaker 3: I understand the association that you can be mentioned and
Speaker 3: there not be any criminal liability connected to you. But
Speaker 3: also in some ways, you know, you get to uh
Speaker 3: measure measure me by what you know, what I do,
Speaker 3: what I've done. This man is clearly proven. He's a criminal.
Speaker 3: He's clearly proven, and courts have agreed that he has
Speaker 3: sexually assaulted whomen and certainly have found him liable for
Speaker 3: having done so in the further slandering of these individuals.
Speaker 3: But the I'm still upset at the fact that what
Speaker 3: we have now is only half of the government's total
Speaker 3: collected two minutes, and if we got privy to this much,
Speaker 3: the carelessness by which they released the names of previously unknown,
Speaker 3: undisclosed victims to this heinous set of crimes, the fact
Speaker 3: that they took better care to blackout Trump's names and
Speaker 3: Trump's friends than they did the women who were the
Speaker 3: girls at the time, kids who were victimized here. I mean,
Speaker 3: the Justice Department had one job after that legislation passed,
Speaker 3: and it was to protect the victims. And they and
Speaker 3: they did everything but protect the victims. One of those victims,
Speaker 3: who was previously unknown, wrote to them, please delete my name,
Speaker 3: Please delete my name. I mean, this is I don't
Speaker 3: know if you can take action. I know we have
Speaker 3: two lawyers to me. I gonna know if you want to,
Speaker 3: but I play one in the streets. I don't know
Speaker 3: if there is a the ability to sue the federal government,
Speaker 3: but what they've done. But God knows, those people deserve
Speaker 3: to be able to get some modicum of justice or
Speaker 3: reckoning for their full out disrespect of what they've gone
Speaker 3: through from frankly learning it to the point where we're
Speaker 3: at right now, this has been a continuing travesty.
Speaker 1: Look, they took care to try to redact and bring
Speaker 1: and put bring back some of the things they put
Speaker 1: out about Donald Trump without any care for the victims
Speaker 1: in this matter. That's how Gloria already talking about that recently.
Speaker 1: But those victims have had courage, they're speaking with courage.
Speaker 1: Somebody else who's been speaking with courage. We just heard
Speaker 1: testimony from Aliah Rochman, who I just think was so powerful.
Speaker 1: She was a disabled Minnesota excuse me, Minneapolis, Minnesota resident.
Speaker 1: We saw her being detained pull out her car on
Speaker 1: a way to a doctor's appointment by ice. She testified
Speaker 1: on the heel. And as we bring this Fyisa moment
Speaker 1: in our show to a close, we have one more
Speaker 1: comment after this. I wanted to play this just so
Speaker 1: we could talk about some of the things we're seeing
Speaker 1: around us.
Speaker 13: On January thirteenth, on the way to my thirty ninth
Speaker 13: appointment at Hennepin County's Traumatic Brain Injury Center, I encountered
Speaker 13: a traffic jam caused by ice vehicles and no signs
Speaker 13: indicating how to get around it. I had not wanted
Speaker 13: to pull into a blocked, chaotic intersection, but verbally agreed
Speaker 13: to do so and rolled down my window after an
Speaker 13: agent yelled.
Speaker 3: Move, I will break your effing window his first instruction.
Speaker 13: Agents on all sides of my vehicle yelled conflicting threats
Speaker 13: and instructions that I could not process while watching for pedestrians.
Speaker 13: Then the glass of the passenger side window flew across
Speaker 13: my face. I yelled, I'm disabled at the hands grabbing
Speaker 13: at me, and an agent said too late. I felt
Speaker 13: immersed in a pattern, and I thought of Genoa Donald,
Speaker 13: an autistic black man killed by police during a traffic
Speaker 13: stop in twenty twenty one. I remembered mister Siberio Gonzalez,
Speaker 13: who was killed by ice in his vehicle last year.
Speaker 13: An agent pulled a large combat knife in front of
Speaker 13: my face, which I thought was for cutting me and
Speaker 13: later learned was used to cut off my seat belt.
Speaker 13: Shooting pain went through my head, neck and wrists. When
Speaker 13: I hit the ground face first and people leaned on
Speaker 13: my back, I felt the pattern, and I thought of
Speaker 13: mister George Floyd, who was killed four blocks away. I
Speaker 13: was carried face down through the street by my cuffed
Speaker 13: arms and legs while yelling that I had a brain
Speaker 13: injury and was disabled. I now cannot lift my arms normally.
Speaker 13: I was never asked for ID, never told I was
Speaker 13: under arrest, never read my riots, and never charged with
Speaker 13: a crime. Approaching the Whipple Center, I saw black and
Speaker 13: brown bodies shackled together, chained together, being marched by yelling agents. Outdoors,
Speaker 13: I continue to hear the word bodies, because that is
Speaker 13: how agents refer to us.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to play it just because of the
Speaker 1: I just I sometimes I just felt the emotion and
Speaker 1: the volume in her voice.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Angie, her voice is chilling, and I think
Speaker 4: part of the reason why it's chilling is because you
Speaker 4: can tell that she's speaking so powerfully through her fears.
Speaker 4: I want to let the audience know that. In addition
Speaker 4: to Alia Rahman, Renee Goods to Brothers also testified this
Speaker 4: is about trying to find some way to hold ICE accountable,
Speaker 4: CBP accountable, which, again, as we said on multiple shows,
Speaker 4: has no place in Minnesota, way outside of their jurisdiction,
Speaker 4: given it's not a border and a port of entry
Speaker 4: in that regard for this country. I will just also
Speaker 4: say that Tom Holman has said that they are going
Speaker 4: to draw down seven hundred ICE agents from the streets
Speaker 4: of Minnesota, and I think the challenge for many is
Speaker 4: it appears that only about one hundred and fifty.
Speaker 2: Are roaming at any given time.
Speaker 4: So you're talking about drawing down numbers that for the
Speaker 4: most part, people haven't seen all at once, and so
Speaker 4: I wonder what impact it will actually have.
Speaker 2: But this is not light.
Speaker 4: I mean, even when we were just there Tamika, we
Speaker 4: had security to every door.
Speaker 2: We wouldn't leave and go to the store separately.
Speaker 4: We were like, we're gonna be from point to point
Speaker 4: and back to the airport. And you know, it's just
Speaker 4: there are so many people in Minnesota other parts of
Speaker 4: the country that can't do that, that have to make
Speaker 4: calculated decisions every day about going to school, about going
Speaker 4: to work, about going to the grocery store. You know,
Speaker 4: things that are liberties that we shouldn't have to talk
Speaker 4: about taking for granted because they just are ours that
Speaker 4: in this day and age of terror, they would rather
Speaker 4: people live in this type of fear just for power's sake.
Speaker 4: And it's not the good kind of power's the abuse
Speaker 4: of power anyway.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And now that they're pulling the seven hundred agents,
Speaker 5: if you will, I really don't like calling them agents.
Speaker 5: But now that they're pulling the vigilant vigilantes, the seven
Speaker 5: hundred of them, where are they going. When you talk
Speaker 5: about people being in their homes and afraid to come out,
Speaker 5: that's the same thing that's happening in Portland. I got
Speaker 5: a report from a young lady who's an activist there.
Speaker 5: People are locked in their homes, afraid to go to work,
Speaker 5: afraid to go to school. And so these seven hundred
Speaker 5: agents aren't going back home. They're going somewhere, and we've
Speaker 5: got to, you know, keep our eyes open. But I
Speaker 5: know one thing I saw is that they haven't received
Speaker 5: the fifty thousand dollars that they were promised to sign
Speaker 5: on to ICE. In fact, the contract, our sister Elizabeth
Speaker 5: was laying it out that the contract actually says you
Speaker 5: get ten thousand dollars per year over five years, and
Speaker 5: if for some reason you have to separate from ICE,
Speaker 5: you got to pay back the original money or whatever
Speaker 5: money you've already received. And they play these games with people,
Speaker 5: and I don't understand for the life of me, why
Speaker 5: do people still believe them when they lie?
Speaker 3: They you lie, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I talk of
Speaker 3: that to me. I saw that they they uh with
Speaker 3: these federal that we were talking about the recruitment. I
Speaker 3: think that's what you referring to, the fifty thousand bonus
Speaker 3: that is being offered for the recruitment. I just noticed
Speaker 3: now this morning that they're now ICE is now running
Speaker 3: ads talking about this is the work that ICE does,
Speaker 3: and it's this real slick you know, Madison Avenue, and
Speaker 3: you know, talking about this is the real work we do.
Speaker 3: We're locking up criminals. We're da da da, And I'm like, nah,
Speaker 3: you're trying to psych us out, like we're not seeing
Speaker 3: what you actually do. We have watched for weeks, for
Speaker 3: months now, the job that Ice does, and ain't nobody
Speaker 3: making it up. We've heard your words. We see how
Speaker 3: you treat women. We see how you treat people with disabilities,
Speaker 3: and pregnant folks and innocent men by standers who are
Speaker 3: simply trying to help the women up who you have assaulted,
Speaker 3: and then they find themselves dead, lying in the street,
Speaker 3: a mother and father without their child, right co workers
Speaker 3: without fellow you know, workers, people with bright futures that
Speaker 3: are snuffed out. You don't have to you don't. We
Speaker 3: don't need your slick ass to tell us what you do.
Speaker 3: We have eyes. We've been listening, we've been watching, and
Speaker 3: we know the kind of terror that you can rain
Speaker 3: down on our you know, on our communities. You know
Speaker 3: the question around what next, y'all. It's been rumored that
Speaker 3: Ohio is the next destination, and part of that has
Speaker 3: to do with the fact that outside of the state
Speaker 3: of Florida, frankly, I think between them in Massachusetts that
Speaker 3: they've got we got the largest next concentration of Haitians.
Speaker 3: The government tried to remove the temporary protective status much
Speaker 3: of us know it as GPS from Haitians last week,
Speaker 3: and a judge overnight said no, you can't make these
Speaker 3: folks out of compliance and ship them off the next day,
Speaker 3: no notice on And so far we don't know it's
Speaker 3: still going to make his way through the court system
Speaker 3: that there may be another judge who may you know,
Speaker 3: reverse that ruling. But we just got to keep our
Speaker 3: eyes wide open because in spite of all the terror
Speaker 3: that's been raining down on those folks, these people are
Speaker 3: still showing these block captains and their neighbors are still
Speaker 3: showing up, delivering meals, walking kids and immigrants to to
Speaker 3: local schools and so on and so forth. So their
Speaker 3: courage and their bravery just stands to be you know,
Speaker 3: just noted again, it's not it's not easy. I was
Speaker 3: exhausted and we were, like Angela said it, going point
Speaker 3: to point. But you know, weigh in the chairs of
Speaker 3: my family were like, do you really need to be
Speaker 3: there right now, you know, against what these people are
Speaker 3: doing putting their bodies in the way, and by the way,
Speaker 3: there is no innocent way. There is no safe way
Speaker 3: of putting your body. And between victims and the aggressor,
Speaker 3: there is no safe way because you can die just
Speaker 3: helping a woman up.
Speaker 5: And shout out to you for providing relief also on
Speaker 5: the ground. I don't know if that was stated, but
Speaker 5: there was, you know, an assistant Dwana Thompson helped to
Speaker 5: coordinate real relief and resources for the community. So you
Speaker 5: didn't just show up, but you showed up with something
Speaker 5: in the hand to help the people.
Speaker 1: Indeed, you know, Angela was really big on not taking
Speaker 1: from the community, making sure we give I want to
Speaker 1: get to this next question, Tamiko. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I've always I think I said it on this
Speaker 1: show till I was bluing the faces, that nothing happens
Speaker 1: in a vacuum. I say that literally every episode. The
Speaker 1: one Big Beautiful Bill we talked about that, we railed
Speaker 1: about that this time last year. That's the reason that
Speaker 1: the ICE still has its funding running ads. The fact
Speaker 1: that white people were killed in the middle of the
Speaker 1: street is the reason that we're having this testimony and
Speaker 1: all those things, all those you know, Tom Herman pulling
Speaker 1: people out the street. There are other things that are
Speaker 1: going on as well around us, because nothing happens in
Speaker 1: a vaccine. I do want to go right now to
Speaker 1: a quick question. We're going to throw an audience question
Speaker 1: up here, but it's from Rashad Robinson because I think
Speaker 1: it fits in perfectly before we get to our guests,
Speaker 1: which is going to go down a path that Angela
Speaker 1: likes to talk about a lot, which is the role
Speaker 1: of religiosity in our society today. But let's listen to
Speaker 1: Rashad's question and then cham in on the other side.
Speaker 7: Hey, y'all, this is Rashad Robinson, civil rights leader, strategist activists.
Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit of strategy with
Speaker 1: you all.
Speaker 7: Bill Ackman, the anti DEI activist and investor. You know,
Speaker 7: Bill makes his money by investing other people's money, kind
Speaker 7: of simply put endowments, pensions, rich people's money, and so
Speaker 7: he invests that money. Oftentimes when he gets involved those
Speaker 7: companies restructure, they do all sorts of things so that
Speaker 7: the folks at the top make a lot more money.
Speaker 7: But I'm here to actually talk about Bill Ackman giving
Speaker 7: ten thousand dollars to Jonathan Ross. Jonathan Ross is the
Speaker 7: ice agent that shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis
Speaker 7: then called her a bitch. Right, if those are the
Speaker 7: type of people that Bill Ackman wants to give money to,
Speaker 7: he has every right. But we have every right to
Speaker 7: ask ourselves to ask the institutions we're associated with, where
Speaker 7: they be the colleges with endowments, whether they be the
Speaker 7: places we work or are associated with that have pensions,
Speaker 7: the foundations that we may be connected to, do we
Speaker 7: allow Bill Ackman to invest our money. Those are the
Speaker 7: questions we should be asking this moment. Bill Ackman's anti
Speaker 7: DEI work was all about closing the door to education opportunities,
Speaker 7: closing the door to government contrast closing the door to
Speaker 7: job opportunities. It was about a strategy that profiteers engage
Speaker 7: in with making sure that some people can have opportunities
Speaker 7: to succeed, while privilege and unearned opportunity becomes the reward
Speaker 7: structure for those that don't deserve it. That is part
Speaker 7: of the strategy behind what Bill Ackman does is doing,
Speaker 7: and it's absolutely connected behind putting money behind this ice
Speaker 7: agent and what he's done. He has a right to
Speaker 7: do what he is doing, but we have a responsibility
Speaker 7: to not mistake the visibility, the virility of this story,
Speaker 7: the presence of this story, for the power to actually
Speaker 7: do something about it. So we've got an opportunity to
Speaker 7: something about it, and we should take it.
Speaker 1: Can I chime in on this real quick, guys, just
Speaker 1: on the Bill Ackman piece, because Bill Ackman and Elon
Speaker 1: Musk have this really weird, i would say, perverse outlook
Speaker 1: on society and that the browning of America is something
Speaker 1: that terrifies them. It's a world outlook that shows a
Speaker 1: level of fear and intimidation by of things such as diversity,
Speaker 1: because they view people of diverse backgrounds as somehow not
Speaker 1: earning it. And then they go from a level of
Speaker 1: not earning it because of the color of their skin
Speaker 1: to the fact that they're taking something from us that
Speaker 1: would otherwise be ours, which on its face is how
Speaker 1: I somewhat define white supremacy, right. And I look at
Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Bill Ackman's kind of cut from the
Speaker 1: same cloth. They come from pretty much the same cultural community,
Speaker 1: cultural background, and they also are people who were born
Speaker 1: on third base and believe they hit a home run.
Speaker 1: And so the fascinating part about talking about them is Rashad,
Speaker 1: who I think is I believe that we all play
Speaker 1: our separate roles. Some people are in the streets, some
Speaker 1: people are in boardrooms. But everybody's necessary. You need it,
Speaker 1: Julian Bond, and you needed Stokely Carmichael, right. We need
Speaker 1: to make a Mallory and we need Rashad Robinson right,
Speaker 1: and Ben Crump, and I think it's all necessary. Rashad
Speaker 1: does amazing work and highlighted something so important because we
Speaker 1: have these institutions, we have some places of privilege and
Speaker 1: we just acquiesce to the norms, and we have these
Speaker 1: institutions where we have control, and we're still giving Bill
Speaker 1: Ackman our money. And it makes no actual sense to
Speaker 1: me for someone who goes and gets these little returns
Speaker 1: plays ball in these rooms. And then there was a
Speaker 1: person who shot a woman in the face, and your
Speaker 1: political instincts are inclined to say, man, let me, let
Speaker 1: me rte that dude a ten thousand dollars check. So
Speaker 1: it just shows you the level of humanity. And my
Speaker 1: biggest fear is that Bill Ackman will be successful, Steven
Speaker 1: Miller will be success, Elon Musk will be successful. And
Speaker 1: the classes that we see attaining higher education, the boardrooms
Speaker 1: that we see, the people teaching our children, our nurses,
Speaker 1: our doctors, our professionals are going to be whiter. And
Speaker 1: that's what they want.
Speaker 3: There's no doubt about it. And by the way, Elon
Speaker 3: Musk's worldview is carved out of the fact that the
Speaker 3: man was raised in aparthe in South Africa. He was
Speaker 3: raised in a society where black people were written into
Speaker 3: the law, in every rule spoken and unspoken, written and
Speaker 3: unwritten of society where he didn't have to compete with blacks.
Speaker 3: And then when the competition started, now it's a problem.
Speaker 1: Now you can't.
Speaker 3: You know, y'all got to go somewhere. I just want
Speaker 3: to double down on this one point, which is we've
Speaker 3: got elected officials black and otherwise, and folks who sympathize,
Speaker 3: who serve on city council's, county boards, are mayors all
Speaker 3: across the entire United States. All of your pension money,
Speaker 3: your citizens' retirement money, the workers for government are being
Speaker 3: managed by somebody. And I would advise that you'd be
Speaker 3: asking you who you hire and on contract for your
Speaker 3: city governments and your city employees and your government employees
Speaker 3: to make sure that there is no business being done
Speaker 3: with Bill Ackman. The Republicans do it all the time
Speaker 3: when they take their money out and they say it
Speaker 3: can't be used for this, and can't be used for that,
Speaker 3: and no anti semitism, and this is that in the
Speaker 3: third and all that is whatever. But now you also
Speaker 3: sit at the place of opportunity where you can introduce
Speaker 3: components of legislation writers to bills that say we're not
Speaker 3: doing business with this man, and if you are divesting.
Speaker 1: Out, listen. I think that's a good point, you know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I wanted to do was
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that we're in these rooms and
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that sometimes we need to bring
Speaker 1: people in the folk, people that are doing work on
Speaker 1: other sides, people that may have their ear when they're
Speaker 1: having this conversation, which kind of folds into a larger
Speaker 1: conversation that we've had on the show. One larger conversation
Speaker 1: I want to have, particularly with you here, Tamika, is
Speaker 1: what role do wan white males play? What role do
Speaker 1: white male evangelicals play? One of the blessings we have
Speaker 1: about this show is we get to talk about it,
Speaker 1: all right, And so we have Reverend Shank here joining
Speaker 1: us on the show. We're going to bring them in.
Speaker 1: Its kind of like a fifth will.
Speaker 12: Nobody knows.
Speaker 1: This is the way I wanted to introduce you, Reverend.
Speaker 1: We found a video of you actually testifying, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to play that clip right here. It's testifying to
Speaker 1: Congress about your work influencing the Supreme Court of these
Speaker 1: United States of America. And then I got a question
Speaker 1: about Clarence Thomas on the other side. I'm just joking,
Speaker 1: go ahead and rote a clip.
Speaker 12: I am here to present facts as I know of
Speaker 12: them about Operation Higher Court, a Christian mission that I
Speaker 12: directed as part of Faith into Action for twenty years
Speaker 12: to bolster conservative Supreme Court justices in the views they
Speaker 12: already held. Operation Higher Court involved my recruitment of wealthy
Speaker 12: donors as stealth missionaries who befriended justices that shared our
Speaker 12: conservative social and religious sensibilities. In this way, I aimed
Speaker 12: to show these justices that Americans supported them and thanked
Speaker 12: God for their presence on the Court and the opinions
Speaker 12: they rendered. Our overarching goals were to gain insights into
Speaker 12: the conservative justices thinking and to shore up their resolve
Speaker 12: to render solid, unapologetic opinions, particularly against abortion. I called
Speaker 12: this our ministry of emboldenment. I believe we pushed the
Speaker 12: boundaries of Christian ethics and compromised the High Court's promise
Speaker 12: to administer equal justice. But I'm also conscious we were
Speaker 12: never admonished for the type of work our missionaries did.
Speaker 12: To the contrary. In one instance, Justice Thomas commended me,
Speaker 12: saying something like, keep up what you're doing. It's making
Speaker 12: a difference.
Speaker 1: So the right Reverend Robert Shank, did I pronounce your
Speaker 1: last name correctly?
Speaker 12: Yes? But sometimes I am the wrong reverence, And that's
Speaker 12: what that was all.
Speaker 1: About, I understand. So I just wanted to start the
Speaker 1: conversation with I think the two most important words in
Speaker 1: the English language, other words, thank you, And then I
Speaker 1: nearly said enough. So thank you for your time, and
Speaker 1: thank you for the work that you are now doing.
Speaker 1: Ain't the work you used to do, but thank you
Speaker 1: for the work that you're now doing. What role do
Speaker 1: white male evangelicals play in changing culture, changing society? We
Speaker 1: talked about ice, we talked about jelly, roll earlier, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you see a muted voice. I think it all
Speaker 1: ties in together. What can we expect, what should we expect?
Speaker 1: And what are we not seeing?
Speaker 12: Well, what we're not saying is some of the change
Speaker 12: that's happening right now, and a lot of it because
Speaker 12: of Minneapolis. I just read a report from Christianity Today,
Speaker 12: which has historically been the journal of record for American
Speaker 12: white evangelicals, and there's a lot of a lot of
Speaker 12: disruption in the in the positions of evangelicals in Minnesota
Speaker 12: right now because of what they're seeing playing out in
Speaker 12: the streets. H you know, I hate to say it,
Speaker 12: but you asked about, you know, white evangelicals. I think
Speaker 12: white males in general get a little more attention from
Speaker 12: white evangelical leader's keen sense of the obvious. They are
Speaker 12: been happening for a long time. But the reason I
Speaker 12: mention it is because, of course, the killing of Alex
Speaker 12: pretty as compared to even the killing of Renee Good.
Speaker 12: Renee Good was white, she would normally command attention, but
Speaker 12: discounted by the fact that she's gay. That she was gay.
Speaker 12: So but here we go, white male of a certain
Speaker 12: age and a gun owner gets the attention that others
Speaker 12: don't get, so I think that's part of the reason,
Speaker 12: but not the whole reason. I think a fair number
Speaker 12: of white evangelical leaders are now feeling uncomfortfter bowl with
Speaker 12: the violence, the threats, with the behavior after the shootings,
Speaker 12: with the abduction of children and their imprisonment in cages.
Speaker 12: It's starting to trouble the conscience. Not enough to tip
Speaker 12: the scales, not anywhere near, but it's changing. And I'm
Speaker 12: sorry for such a long answer to your short question,
Speaker 12: but I'll just add this. I do think it's critically
Speaker 12: important now that white male evangelical leaders start airing their
Speaker 12: conscience and their descent. And I know there are many
Speaker 12: of them, but they are silenced by fear. But they
Speaker 12: have to find their courage. And the reason they do
Speaker 12: is because this administration will pay attention to that in
Speaker 12: a way they won't pay attention to anyone else. They'll
Speaker 12: write everybody else off. They're black, they're socialists, they're leftists,
Speaker 12: they're communists, their nutcases. But suddenly, when when white males
Speaker 12: like me start speaking. I know from my contacts in
Speaker 12: the administration, I maintain friends who are working for Trump
Speaker 12: right now in the White House, and they will say
Speaker 12: that got a little attention here. That bothered some people,
Speaker 12: not for the right reasons, but it bothered them.
Speaker 4: So if I could ask you, you know, there's a
Speaker 4: conversion moment biblically speaking, where Saul is converted to Paul.
Speaker 4: You're talking about finding your courage. I want to know
Speaker 4: what helped you to find your courage. And in this
Speaker 4: moment where you're talking about having friends in the White House,
Speaker 4: knowing now what you understand to be their agenda, how
Speaker 4: they whoo to move forward, how are you maintaining those friendships,
Speaker 4: and how do you intend to help them to convert
Speaker 4: from Saul to Paul.
Speaker 12: Yeah, well, thanks for framing it that way. I talk
Speaker 12: about three conversions in my own life. My initial conversion
Speaker 12: to the christ I saw in the Sermon on the Mount,
Speaker 12: who blessed the poor, who blessed the forgotten, the margin lies,
Speaker 12: the lonely, the grieving. Then in the eighties I was
Speaker 12: converted to what I now call Ronald Reagan Republican religion,
Speaker 12: which is distinctly different from Christianity. And I spent thirty
Speaker 12: five years in that religious stream, doing the kind of
Speaker 12: work and am now repenting from. Then I had a
Speaker 12: third conversion reading the work of church leaders in nineteen
Speaker 12: thirties Germany during the rise of Adolf Hitler and his
Speaker 12: racial life dictatorship, and that was the first crack. There
Speaker 12: were a few little, tiny threads before that, but it
Speaker 12: was really confronting that history and seeing that what I
Speaker 12: was engaged in for thirty years was identical to what
Speaker 12: the Ivan Gaelic Schekerche, the Evangelical Church of Germany was
Speaker 12: doing in that era. In fact, it would be evangelical
Speaker 12: leaders who declared Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party a
Speaker 12: gifted miracle from God. Well, I was seeing the same,
Speaker 12: and so that was part of it. The other substantial
Speaker 12: part of my third conversion out of that right wing
Speaker 12: cult was my wife, who made a late in life
Speaker 12: professional change from being an occupational therapist to a psychotherapist.
Speaker 12: And when you're married to a psychotherapist, you can't escape
Speaker 12: the therapy no matter how hard you try, and that
Speaker 12: was a huge, huge help for me, and I would
Speaker 12: enter my own period of therapy which helped me face
Speaker 12: myself in a way I ever had and the realities
Speaker 12: of what was going on around me. So that was
Speaker 12: a lot of it. There was more. It was a
Speaker 12: long and complex formula equation that got me to the
Speaker 12: other side. But I'm so glad it did.
Speaker 3: When you think about the dates. I was just trying
Speaker 3: to help me understand some of the time periods of
Speaker 3: your third conversion, just so I understand where where to
Speaker 3: sort of place my question.
Speaker 12: Well, it's been a kind of ten year progression for me.
Speaker 12: Those versed cracks appeared in oh nine, ten, twenty ten.
Speaker 12: It was particularly jarring when when I attended the eightieth
Speaker 12: birthday party for the now late televangelist Pat Robertson, who's
Speaker 12: built a right winging religious empire that continues to this moment,
Speaker 12: and his guest of honor at this big banish where
Speaker 12: virtually every e white evangelical luminary in this country was
Speaker 12: in the ballroom celebrating with Pat, and his guest of
Speaker 12: honor in twenty eleven was none other than Donald Trump,
Speaker 12: And I was shocked by that. I didn't think of
Speaker 12: Trump as part of our our culture. In fact, when
Speaker 12: I was in Bible.
Speaker 14: Yes exactly, and when I was in Bible College what
Speaker 14: we call our seminaries to prepare for ministry way back
Speaker 14: in the early eighties.
Speaker 12: I was told that Donald Trump was the classic example
Speaker 12: of everything it meant not to live that say Christian,
Speaker 12: and that he makes a great sermon illustration for that.
Speaker 12: And I had used him as that over the years.
Speaker 12: But there he was at Pat's birthday party, and I
Speaker 12: asked one of my colleagues, a name well known in
Speaker 12: the white evangelical world, why is he here? And the
Speaker 12: the answer was because he and Pattern now part of
Speaker 12: the same billionaires club. Pat had just sold the Family Channel,
Speaker 12: his family became billion airs in the process, and now
Speaker 12: they were billionaire pals, and that was distressing to me.
Speaker 12: And it would be at the twenty sixteen Republican National
Speaker 12: Convention that I finally made the break left the movement. Theoretically,
Speaker 12: it took me two more years to extract myself legally
Speaker 12: and financially.
Speaker 2: But weaky, I'm sorry. Can you say more about the
Speaker 2: financial piece. You said to extract yourself financially to what
Speaker 2: does that mean?
Speaker 12: Yeah? Well, first, I was running an organization I had
Speaker 12: spent thirty five years building, which had fifty thousand donors
Speaker 12: spread across the United States, hundreds of churches. We were
Speaker 12: raising millions, millions of dollars, and I had legal obligations,
Speaker 12: and you know, I lose nothing by being candid and
Speaker 12: completely honest these days, and that's what I was trying
Speaker 12: to do in Minneapolis. But I wasn't. I wasn't fully
Speaker 12: courageous all at once, and and I'm not even at
Speaker 12: this moment. I was afraid of donor lawsuits. I was
Speaker 12: afraid of contractors suing me. So I carefully deconstructed that operation.
Speaker 12: It took two years to do it, and to safely
Speaker 12: extract myself once I did, I left all of that behind,
Speaker 12: every bit of it. For a little while I was
Speaker 12: driving uber to pay my bills all the cost of it.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 12: You know.
Speaker 3: I'm am appreciative of your transparency, even with us now
Speaker 3: and our audience. And we didn't get to say welcome
Speaker 3: home at the start of this interview, but but that's
Speaker 3: something we say to our guests when when they make
Speaker 3: themselves available to this community. I am. I work for
Speaker 3: a long time on the other side of some of
Speaker 3: your court work at People for the American Way, which
Speaker 3: is also known as the House of Bork, because we
Speaker 3: led the effort to defeat Robert Bork's nomination to the
Speaker 3: to the High Court. So I understand that that space
Speaker 3: very well, I am. I don't understand as well the
Speaker 3: space of white evangelism, mostly because if we subscribe to
Speaker 3: the same Jesus, the same God, the same scripture, and
Speaker 3: I know scripture can be used creatively by whoever wills it,
Speaker 3: but we miss each other at that intersection of what
Speaker 3: scripture seems to say to white evangelicals and then what
Speaker 3: it says in the Black tradition, the Christian faith, and
Speaker 3: it absolutely shows up differently in our politics, certainly in
Speaker 3: American and society and culture. I just wonder, on the
Speaker 3: other side of this of of your evolution, where you
Speaker 3: now where and how you now carry the message to
Speaker 3: other white evangelicals around, how they see the lights come
Speaker 3: to evolution, come to transition, because by and large we're
Speaker 3: kind of we're kind of on the right track on
Speaker 3: our side, and they're still fighting and stay on the
Speaker 3: what we believe to be the right track. Yet a
Speaker 3: lot of our brothers and sisters on in the Christian
Speaker 3: evangelical side still tolerate outrageous forms of hate and terror
Speaker 3: and cruelty by the administration and what their politics often produces.
Speaker 3: How do you how do you sort of theorize the
Speaker 3: best way to move other white male evangelicals closer to
Speaker 3: the truth of the faith and away I think from
Speaker 3: some of the cruelty in devastating, destructive politics of the
Speaker 3: far right.
Speaker 12: Well, it's not easy, although I did retain thousands of
Speaker 12: just those sorts of folks on my social media platforms,
Speaker 12: which I use as my pulpit these days, and I
Speaker 12: remind them of their conversions, what drew them to Christ.
Speaker 12: And you know, there's a passage in the New Testament
Speaker 12: Book of Revelation where the resurrect at Christ is speaking
Speaker 12: to the te from the heavenlys if you read it
Speaker 12: that way, and he says, to a particular church in
Speaker 12: a particular place, you're doing everything right, but I have
Speaker 12: this one thing against you. You have left your first love.
Speaker 12: So I try to remind evangelicals of their first love, Jesus,
Speaker 12: who I regularly reintroduce as the dark complexed Middle Eastern
Speaker 12: man of the Levant, who had very dark skin and
Speaker 12: afro textured hair, wool hair exactly. And I put him
Speaker 12: out there and I just let them sit with him,
Speaker 12: and then I remind them of what he said. And
Speaker 12: I do get folks, small numbers, but regularly who come,
Speaker 12: usually through a direct message because they're afraid to go
Speaker 12: on the page, and they'll say, you know you've got
Speaker 12: me on that, You've got me thinking, and yes, that
Speaker 12: was the reason I gave my heart to Jesus all
Speaker 12: those years ago. It's still small numbers. The other task
Speaker 12: I have, which is the larger one, is to expose
Speaker 12: this as not just un Christian, but anti Christian. So
Speaker 12: I try to do that through my writing, through you know,
Speaker 12: on social media platforms and elsewhere, and then in conversation
Speaker 12: with leaders. I just invited a unabashed self identified Christian
Speaker 12: nationalist leader he heads a small denomination in the United
Speaker 12: States to a meeting with progressive leaders up in Boston
Speaker 12: in two weeks. He accepted the invitation to a dialogue
Speaker 12: with them. We'll see what happens. But I want to
Speaker 12: do more and more of that. That's part of the
Speaker 12: repair work. There's far more than that, and it's much
Speaker 12: closer to people who have suffered because of what I did.
Speaker 12: But that's some of the work that I that I
Speaker 12: try to do.
Speaker 3: Appreciate that.
Speaker 5: Ramonshane, can I ask you, you know you talked about
Speaker 5: some of these folks that you're in relationship with, and
Speaker 5: how they have looking at all that's going on, and
Speaker 5: particularly Minneapolis, they've changed, their hearts have changed in some ways.
Speaker 5: Do you think that that means they're going to show
Speaker 5: up at the polls differently? Are they going to vote
Speaker 5: different are they talking about that or do you think
Speaker 5: because you know, one of the challenges that I have
Speaker 5: faced in working with white women, you know, I was
Speaker 5: one of the leaders of the Women's March. I have
Speaker 5: been on the of America organizing, marching with galvanizing thousands,
Speaker 5: hundreds of thousands, millions of women, and oftentimes the numbers,
Speaker 5: the math doesn't math. As we say that, you know,
Speaker 5: they will say we're with you, We're with you, We're
Speaker 5: with you. And then when we look at the numbers
Speaker 5: after an election, it is very clear that some people
Speaker 5: either weren't telling the truth or they definitely didn't go
Speaker 5: and do the work at home of organizing not just
Speaker 5: us out in the community, but being there to organize
Speaker 5: their mothers, their aunts, their sisters, their friends, their you know,
Speaker 5: their family members. So how do you see this translating
Speaker 5: to as we are approaching the midterm elections.
Speaker 12: Yeah, that's a great point and It reminds me of
Speaker 12: the work I have yet to do to organize white
Speaker 12: evangelicals of conscience as I call them, or dissenters. I'm
Speaker 12: hopeful that a fair number of them are troubled enough
Speaker 12: that they just simply won't vote. That they they'll just
Speaker 12: sit it out. Hoping they'll vote for a Democrat is
Speaker 12: probably too great of a leap of faith for me.
Speaker 12: But maybe they'll We'll take them sit at home. Well,
Speaker 12: they can stay home, and I think that's more likely
Speaker 12: what they'll do, and it would be a good choice.
Speaker 12: And I will be saying that to them. I'll say,
Speaker 12: if if you just can't, here's one way you can
Speaker 12: preserve your conscience in this sit it out. So that's possibility.
Speaker 12: I do know of some already who in the last
Speaker 12: election voted for a Democrat for the first time in
Speaker 12: their electoral lives. I voted for Joe Biden, first vote
Speaker 12: for a Democratic candidate in how many years was it?
Speaker 12: Because the last time I voted for a Democrat before
Speaker 12: Biden was nineteen seventy six, so it was a long time.
Speaker 12: Is that forty four at Carter's for Carter? Yeah, so
Speaker 12: it was forty four years and there are others. I'm
Speaker 12: not unique. I am not unique. There's a lot. I
Speaker 12: didn't vote for Trump either time. By the way, I
Speaker 12: voted for other Republican, for another Republican in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4: I if I can ask you, Reverend, there was just
Speaker 4: an arrest several ors made of nine individuals who the
Speaker 4: Department of Justice is calling defendants on the other side
Speaker 4: of a protest at a church city church in fact
Speaker 4: in Saint Paul, Minnesota, where one of the pastors, David Easterwood,
Speaker 4: serves as an icefield director. And I'm curious to know
Speaker 4: if you think there's ever an appropriate time to protest
Speaker 4: in church one and two, if you think that journalists
Speaker 4: should be exempt from any type of criminal indictment for
Speaker 4: covering said protests, Well, I did it.
Speaker 12: I did it at the Washington National Cathedral back when
Speaker 12: I was a leader in the national pro life anti
Speaker 12: abortion movement. Wow, I confronted Bill Clinton in the sanctuary
Speaker 12: during a communion service, and I was applauded for that.
Speaker 12: I was made a hero in the conservative Christian world
Speaker 12: for my disruption of a communion service on Christmas Eve.
Speaker 12: By the way, on Christmas Eve, so I'd like to say,
Speaker 12: I did one better that these folks did on a
Speaker 12: comment Sunday morning, and I was made a hero for it.
Speaker 12: I'm reminding people of that. You want to denounce this.
Speaker 12: You applauded me when I did it, and that was
Speaker 12: I guess about nineteen ninety six ish something like that.
Speaker 12: Don't have to go back and records. But in any case,
Speaker 12: and ironically, the administration is using a law that we
Speaker 12: decried and that anti abortion activists and other white evangelical
Speaker 12: champions of religious liberty regularly denounce, and that is the
Speaker 12: Face Act, the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act,
Speaker 12: which we decried. We fought it in court, we raised
Speaker 12: tens of millions of dollars to oppose it, and now
Speaker 12: they're using it against Don Lemon, against the others. It's
Speaker 12: and I'm reminding my folks of that too, and hoping
Speaker 12: it will give some pause, say wait a minute, what
Speaker 12: what are we doing here? And incidentally, this is a
Speaker 12: family issue in the church, and you know family's routine
Speaker 12: disrupt one another's Thanksgiving dinners and Christmas celebrations with their differences,
Speaker 12: and that's what's happened here. So again it shows the
Speaker 12: hypocrisy that that I'm confronting my my.
Speaker 3: Family with got it, But Cary, I know we have
Speaker 3: to push. I did just want to ask this final
Speaker 3: question for me and that that's on Rev. Just sort
Speaker 3: of how in your in your most connected way, as you,
Speaker 3: as you as you consider how some of your former
Speaker 3: compadreis and maybe even still compadres might think about this,
Speaker 3: but just the hierarchy of threat that white evangelical men
Speaker 3: sort of consider when considering their politics. So for instance,
Speaker 3: if if we, if they, if if the other side wins,
Speaker 3: and in there, if I'm them, the other side would
Speaker 3: be Democrats. I guess what is is it? Is it
Speaker 3: that they're going to promote black people above us and
Speaker 3: our sons and our children. Is it that they're going
Speaker 3: to make abortion free and available everywhere? Is it? Where
Speaker 3: do you when you get to the real crux of
Speaker 3: what barrier sits in the way of me being able
Speaker 3: to get over what coalition or alignment or agreement looks
Speaker 3: like with the other side. I mean, you can see
Speaker 3: bodies strown in the streets, You can see protesters mishandled disrupted.
Speaker 3: You can see even women who are approaching abortion clinics
Speaker 3: be railed against and cried and insulted and made to
Speaker 3: feel in fear to watch children even put in cages.
Speaker 3: Because this isn't the first time the Trump administration has
Speaker 3: done that. They've done that before. But there's still these
Speaker 3: walls that exist that keep otherwise decent people from being
Speaker 3: able to make the leap to set godly. That just
Speaker 3: isn't right. And it is not just right because it
Speaker 3: happened to my wife. It's not right because it happened
Speaker 3: to another fellow family member of the human you know race,
Speaker 3: and it's indecent. What do I always try to think about,
Speaker 3: what's the thing that's keeping you? Is your fear of me?
Speaker 3: That big? Have you made me out to be that
Speaker 3: much of a threat? That that's keeping you from being
Speaker 3: a better human? But what is it? As you think
Speaker 3: about what the hierarchy of either threat or fear dislike,
Speaker 3: I don't even know what to call it because I
Speaker 3: don't know what it is.
Speaker 12: Well, I think fear is the best or at least
Speaker 12: principle way of understanding of understanding it. And I don't
Speaker 12: want to beat Maudlin, and I don't want to turn
Speaker 12: your quality podcast into my confessional book, but I.
Speaker 1: Think it is yeah, we got the wine.
Speaker 14: Okay, okay, Well, no reason for you to associate in
Speaker 14: the first place.
Speaker 12: But you know, I'll confess that for thirty years I
Speaker 12: did business with fundraisers who created millions of messages that
Speaker 12: went out across the United States. And I was a small,
Speaker 12: a bit player. I would send out five to ten
Speaker 12: million communic case a year. Uh. Many of my friends
Speaker 12: that I kept company with in those days would send
Speaker 12: out hundreds of millions of messages, mostly connected to fundraising platforms.
Speaker 12: And I'll describe those to you this way. In one
Speaker 12: exchange that I've thought about many times and I've written about,
Speaker 12: with one of my contracted fundraisers, he sat at a
Speaker 12: conference room table and he told me in nineteen he said, look,
Speaker 12: let me put it this way. The more fear and
Speaker 12: the more anger you give me, the more money I
Speaker 12: will raise for you. You give me a lot of
Speaker 12: fear and anger, I'll raise a lot of money for you.
Speaker 12: You give me a little fear and anger, I'll raise
Speaker 12: a little bit of money for you. So you decide.
Speaker 12: But let me tell you this, he said. I want
Speaker 12: you to think of Helen. She lives on a rural
Speaker 12: root in Kansas, her nearest neighbor is three miles away.
Speaker 12: Her husband's been dead for several years. She rarely ever
Speaker 12: sees her kids or her grandkids. They all live in
Speaker 12: other states. The biggest moment in her day is when
Speaker 12: she goes to her rural mailbox on the roadside, pulls
Speaker 12: out a letter from you, and reads through those eleven
Speaker 12: pages with multiple underlines and exclamation points. And when she's
Speaker 12: done reading, she is terrified of the world her children
Speaker 12: will inhabit. And you're going to tell her the only
Speaker 12: way that she can solve that problem is to send
Speaker 12: your organization one hundred dollars, and you're going to get
Speaker 12: that hundred and probably two hundred. Every single time I
Speaker 12: fired him, I canceled, but I acquiesce just enough to
Speaker 12: hire another group. Almost at that level, that's being done
Speaker 12: and has been done now for forty or fifty years.
Speaker 12: People have been shaped and formed in that year, and
Speaker 12: now they've taken the reins of government power, and they
Speaker 12: are also afraid, but they're more cynical when they are afraid.
Speaker 12: But the people who are giving them that power and
Speaker 12: that money are terrified of the world as they imagine it.
Speaker 12: And this has to do with what I call the
Speaker 12: southernization of American evangelicalism, who were once the leaders in
Speaker 12: the abolitionist movement. The first women's rights a conference was
Speaker 12: held at an evangelical church in Seneca Falls, New York
Speaker 12: in what was that eighteen forty But in any case,
Speaker 12: evangelicals were once the leaders of social progress and innovation.
Speaker 12: They were champions of minority rights, and they were overrun
Speaker 12: by the Southern churches that wanted to preserve the Confederacy,
Speaker 12: and they did it. Anybody wants to read some really
Speaker 12: revelatory work on that. Charles Reagan Wilson, American Southern historian,
Speaker 12: writes on the religion of the Lost Cause in a book,
Speaker 12: his principal book, which is very readable, only about two
Speaker 12: hundred and fifty pages, Baptized in blood. It's really worth
Speaker 12: reading it. It helps you to understand the white evangelical
Speaker 12: mind as it's been formed over the last one hundred
Speaker 12: and fifty years. Appreciate that.
Speaker 3: Appreciate reverse.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just first of all, I just kind
Speaker 1: of want to want to wrap this up by where
Speaker 1: I began, which is to say thank you for coming on,
Speaker 1: thank you for your journey, thank you for sharing your
Speaker 1: journey and thank you for being what we what I
Speaker 1: believe to be the most powerful thing can be in
Speaker 1: this country, which is an example. So I think we
Speaker 1: all say on this show Native Lampard, I'm the newest
Speaker 1: member here, but welcome.
Speaker 12: Home, welcome, welcome home. We feel very undeserving of that.
Speaker 2: Thank you, praying for you, praying for you, Robert, thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you. That, ladies and gentlemen, was the Reverend Robert Shank,
Speaker 1: former right wing activist turn dissenting evangelical organizer, and right
Speaker 1: here on the other side, we will do our calls
Speaker 1: to action, get us on out of here. Thank you, vers, thank.
Speaker 3: You, appreciate your time.
Speaker 1: Who cares about truth?
Speaker 15: In the last Morning.
Speaker 1: It man, we've had a powerful show to that. I
Speaker 1: think that interview with Reverend Robert Shank was something that
Speaker 1: we all need to sit with for a little while,
Speaker 1: and I think I call to actions are going to
Speaker 1: reflect that. So I want to start with our special
Speaker 1: guest co host today, the just amazing, amazing, awesome in
Speaker 1: the truest sense of the word, to make a maleori.
Speaker 1: What you got for us?
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, thank you all again, this has
Speaker 5: really been a pleasure and that was such an incredible
Speaker 5: conversation that I'm glad I was able to be a
Speaker 5: part of. From my call to action today, you know,
Speaker 5: I want to remind folks that as we celebrate the
Speaker 5: one month of Black History Month, because the whole year
Speaker 5: is Black History Month, but this February, as many of
Speaker 5: us are celebrating, I also want us to remember to
Speaker 5: remember some of the fallen soldiers in our movement. And
Speaker 5: you know, just to name a few. On February second
Speaker 5: of twenty twelve, for Marley Graham was shot and killed
Speaker 5: in his house in the Bronx, and it sparked the
Speaker 5: movement not just in New York but across the country.
Speaker 5: He was a young teenager and the police ran in
Speaker 5: his excuse me in his home behind him and shot
Speaker 5: him while his elderly grandmother was at home. Then on
Speaker 5: February fourth and nineteen ninety nine, twenty seven years ago,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna dou Diallo was shot forty one time with
Speaker 5: a cell phone in his hands. It is a story
Speaker 5: that we will never ever forget. And then on February
Speaker 5: twenty six, twenty and twelve, Trayvon Martin was killed.
Speaker 2: Fourteen years ago.
Speaker 5: I just attended the annual celebration in honor of his life,
Speaker 5: his birthday, where his family for fourteen years have been
Speaker 5: holding down the fort of remembrance for their son, but
Speaker 5: also the movement that we are all engaged in for justice,
Speaker 5: for freedom, and for our rights. And you know, it
Speaker 5: makes me think about so many people who've been saying
Speaker 5: ice has been police for us, right, so what.
Speaker 2: Ices to other communities?
Speaker 5: Police officers around this country have been that that our
Speaker 5: communities have been under sieged by law enforcement for a
Speaker 5: long time, and that it is not public safety, it's
Speaker 5: actually state sanctioned violence. We see the connection. We know
Speaker 5: that these are just different, multiple uniform arms that are
Speaker 5: performing the same terror on our communities. And so this February,
Speaker 5: let's also remember those folks who have been taken from
Speaker 5: our communities in this act of terror by law enforcement
Speaker 5: across the nation.
Speaker 1: Powerful, powerful as always, Angela.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much Tamika for sharing that. Mine is
Speaker 4: a lot lighter. I just need my Seahawks to win
Speaker 4: the super Bowl. It's very plain, it's very easy. I
Speaker 4: need us not to relive the trauma from the last
Speaker 4: Super Bowl. We made it to my dad and I
Speaker 4: vented about it. We retraumatize each other on my live
Speaker 4: show on Tuesday in case y'all want to see that.
Speaker 4: And I also would just encourage you all to have
Speaker 4: fun this weekend, watch all the Super Bowl commercials, cheer
Speaker 4: on bad Bunny, pray that he does something to make
Speaker 4: some real upset, and posting all caps on truth social
Speaker 4: that's my cause action, my call to action, and check
Speaker 4: out our mini pod because it will be about what
Speaker 4: bad Bunny might do.
Speaker 1: Mayor gillim uh I actually I'm gonna make this recognidation
Speaker 1: without having read it, but I'm.
Speaker 3: Gonna take the passes word baptized in blood if those
Speaker 3: if we're curious about maybe understanding a little bit better
Speaker 3: the psyche, because it confounds me. That's probably why I
Speaker 3: couldn't put a question together right, but it confounds me
Speaker 3: what exists and what moves and motivates the other side.
Speaker 3: But to the extent that it could become a little
Speaker 3: bit of a crack in the window for how we
Speaker 3: might reach some of our coworkers and people who we
Speaker 3: find ourselves in relationship with but have a wall on
Speaker 3: our politics, we might be able to maybe learn something.
Speaker 3: Peep peep, peep through the window and see if there's
Speaker 3: something there for us, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go
Speaker 3: ahead and order it and take a re join me.
Speaker 1: Mine's along the same lines. Just my call to action
Speaker 1: is I want people to take a deep breath when
Speaker 1: we are evaluating people that we perceive to be our
Speaker 1: political opposite. This week we saw Andrew Schultz have somewhat
Speaker 1: of a come to Jesus moment for lack of a
Speaker 1: better term, saying that you know, I regret platforming Trump.
Speaker 1: You know this, that, and the third I now see
Speaker 1: that you all were right. We're seeing a lot of
Speaker 1: young people. I've seen articles in the Washington Post talking
Speaker 1: about the young generation saying that they regret voting for Trump.
Speaker 1: You see a lot of Hispanic men in particular, regret
Speaker 1: voting for Donald Trump. You see the change that the
Speaker 1: right Reverend Robert Shank has made. And so I guess
Speaker 1: my point is before we reflexively say we've told you so,
Speaker 1: take a deep breath and think about ways in which
Speaker 1: they can be a positive impact to the movement, because
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's my belief that
Speaker 1: we need them to if we're going to have any change.
Speaker 1: So that's my call to action. This has been a
Speaker 1: great show, y'all. I love to Meeka Mallory. I hope
Speaker 1: she comes back as often as she possibly can, even
Speaker 1: at replace Andrews ever she can. So as always, we
Speaker 1: want to remind everyone to leave us a review and
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Speaker 4: As you would think an attorney that went to Morehouse
Speaker 4: could read that's red.
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Speaker 1: more importantly, I just want to give a huge prayer,
Speaker 1: not for what she has has done or what she
Speaker 1: is doing, but a prayer for what she will do.
Speaker 1: May God cover you and order all your steps to
Speaker 1: Mika Mallory. Welcome home, y'all. Have you one hundred and
Speaker 1: seventy seven days until midterm elections. Welcome home to.
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