Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: a woman's resentment of her financially successful brother threatens to
Speaker 2: tear apart their relationship.
Speaker 3: They have a lot of freedom, they have a lot
Speaker 3: of time to spend, they have a lot of money.
Speaker 3: They just they have all these things and we don't
Speaker 3: have those things. Yeah, I wish I had those things too.
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.
Speaker 3: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.
Speaker 1: First, a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn
Speaker 1: and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.
Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed
Speaker 1: for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy, Hey Lourie.
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited for this week's letter because I
Speaker 1: hear it has something to do with siblings and money.
Speaker 2: Yes, it does, and money is one of those topics.
Speaker 2: It's money and sex that people have a very hard
Speaker 2: time talking about, so I'm glad we have the opportunity here.
Speaker 2: Here's the letter, Dear therapists. My only brother and I
Speaker 2: have been closed at times in our lives lives. We
Speaker 2: have kids the same age who absolutely love to play together.
Speaker 2: Since having children, time has been in short supply, and
Speaker 2: we don't connect very often. We spend holidays together and
Speaker 2: hang out in other ways, maybe three or four times
Speaker 2: a year. My brother became a software engineer about five
Speaker 2: years ago and now makes loads of money. We on
Speaker 2: the other hand, are poorer than we've ever been because
Speaker 2: we have two children. I feel like we have less
Speaker 2: and less in common as this difference between us progresses
Speaker 2: and our relationship is struggling to stay together. Aside from
Speaker 2: our kids being friends, my brother's family seems to act
Speaker 2: like everything is perfect, and we want to be close
Speaker 2: with other families that are struggling with the same issue
Speaker 2: we are. I'd like to have a relationship with my brother,
Speaker 2: but I need some guidance and how to navigate this
Speaker 2: difference so we don't grow further apart. Sincerely, Zoe.
Speaker 1: Money brings up so many feelings in people, and they
Speaker 1: feel like they shouldn't talk about it because they feel
Speaker 1: like it's taboo or they shouldn't have these feelings, And
Speaker 1: yet it's all around us. We can't ignore it, and
Speaker 1: when it happens to somebody close to you, like a
Speaker 1: good friend or a sibling, it becomes kind of like
Speaker 1: the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. Some people feel that well, when somebody
Speaker 2: makes money that they didn't have before, it's going to
Speaker 2: change them. But really often what it changes are the
Speaker 2: feelings that person has. Jealousy comes up and becomes up
Speaker 2: resentment can come up and those things are not dealt with,
Speaker 2: it can really cause a rupture in the relationship.
Speaker 1: And with siblings because there's so much history in their relationship,
Speaker 1: sometimes some of those old wounds start coming up in
Speaker 1: the form of this question around the money. So let's
Speaker 1: go talk to her and learn more about what's going
Speaker 1: on between them.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
Speaker 2: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy
Speaker 2: Wynn and this is Dear Therapist.
Speaker 1: So Hi Zoe, Hello Laurie, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Could you tell us a little bit about the relationship
Speaker 2: with your brother before this financial change, the history of it.
Speaker 3: Sure. My brother is twenty months older than I am,
Speaker 3: and I am forty years old now. Around the end
Speaker 3: of high school, we became very close in our relationship.
Speaker 3: I would say that our level of intimacy at that
Speaker 3: time was similar to one of my closest friends, you know,
Speaker 3: through college. We lived together for a year or two,
Speaker 3: maybe even three years. We owned a house together in
Speaker 3: our twenties. We ran a business together in our thirties.
Speaker 3: It was his business when he closed down his business.
Speaker 3: He became a software engineer, and then that was five
Speaker 3: years ago.
Speaker 4: When you say that you got close in high school,
Speaker 4: what was your relationship like when you were younger children.
Speaker 3: There was trauma in the home as children, and we
Speaker 3: were divided in that trauma.
Speaker 4: What was going on in your family that created this
Speaker 4: division between the two of you.
Speaker 3: So when I was born, my brother was twenty months old.
Speaker 3: My father had a lot of issues, and after I
Speaker 3: was born, my mother decided she didn't want to live
Speaker 3: with him any longer. She was afraid for her life.
Speaker 3: My father came and took my brother from her home
Speaker 3: and had him for I think close to a year,
Speaker 3: and my mother, I can only imagine what her experience
Speaker 3: was like during that year. So that was the initial trauma.
Speaker 3: My brother came back, we lived in a completely different
Speaker 3: part of the country for the rest of our lives,
Speaker 3: essentially never seeing that man again, obviously in safety. My
Speaker 3: mother had a very close relationship with my brother, and
Speaker 3: my mother did not have a very close relationship with me.
Speaker 3: And I was the outsider as a child.
Speaker 4: What did that look like their closeness in you being
Speaker 4: an outsider?
Speaker 3: It looked like my family didn't really care that much
Speaker 3: about me.
Speaker 4: What was actually happening between your mom and your brother
Speaker 4: that made you feel that way?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean my mom and my brother were best friends,
Speaker 3: so they had an intimacy amongst themselves that that I
Speaker 3: didn't have with her or with him. He did not
Speaker 3: like me as a child. I was in his way.
Speaker 3: When I got to be an older child. We came
Speaker 3: to a year where we were going to go to
Speaker 3: private school, and I wanted to go to one particular
Speaker 3: private school, and I applied and I was so proud
Speaker 3: of myself. I got accepted into this prestigious private school,
Speaker 3: and my parents were happy about the idea. But then
Speaker 3: they realized that my brother decided to go to a
Speaker 3: different private school and that they were going to have
Speaker 3: to drive him to that school. So they weren't going
Speaker 3: to be able to drive me to the school that
Speaker 3: I wanted to go to, so I had to go
Speaker 3: to the school that he wanted.
Speaker 5: To go to.
Speaker 2: When did your mom remarry?
Speaker 3: My mother remarried around I was about eight years old.
Speaker 2: And what was that like for you when this stepfather
Speaker 2: came into the picture. How did that impact the dynamics
Speaker 2: between your mom and your brother?
Speaker 3: Your mom, and you you know, I think that it
Speaker 3: was quite equalizing. This idea that, you know, the people
Speaker 3: who were close to me and my home really didn't
Speaker 3: like me sort of calmed down a little bit. My
Speaker 3: mother has told me that once he came into the picture,
Speaker 3: she thought everything was fine.
Speaker 4: You use the worst that your family didn't like you.
Speaker 4: Where did you get the impression that your family didn't
Speaker 4: like you.
Speaker 3: My personality is very emotional, and my mother she did
Speaker 3: not consider her emotions to be a part of her life, really,
Speaker 3: and so I was raised with this idea that you know,
Speaker 3: who I am and how I functioned in the world
Speaker 3: is not okay. You need to turn that off.
Speaker 4: Was that told you explicitly, like don't be so sensitive
Speaker 4: or you're too emotional? Or was it implied somehow?
Speaker 3: It was implied in that I was not responded to
Speaker 3: in any way if I were showing emotion.
Speaker 2: Could you give us an example of something that happened
Speaker 2: that you had an emotional response to that got ignored.
Speaker 3: This happened from the time that I was born. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm talking about being three years old and
Speaker 3: understanding that my emotional reaction to things is not gonna
Speaker 3: matter so I hid my emotions from my family my
Speaker 3: entire life.
Speaker 2: Did you have close friends during those childhood years?
Speaker 3: I would say I had one or two close friends.
Speaker 2: And what was that like for you? Because your impression
Speaker 2: was my brother didn't like me, my mom didn't like me.
Speaker 2: Step that comes in and so that even stinks out
Speaker 2: a bit, But you felt by yourself like there was
Speaker 2: no one there to support you, to understand you, to
Speaker 2: be able to respond to your emotions or your needs.
Speaker 2: What was it like when you finally started making some
Speaker 2: close friends and had someone who seemed to really care
Speaker 2: about you.
Speaker 3: I would say that's about sixth grade. It was really
Speaker 3: a life changer for me. You know, I feel like
Speaker 3: I really became a person at that time. I was
Speaker 3: able to share my experience and be lighthearted and yeah,
Speaker 3: like really have the sort of experience of like, oh,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, this is who I am. This isn't how
Speaker 3: I act with my family. I don't act like who
Speaker 3: I really am with them.
Speaker 4: What was different about how you acted around your friends
Speaker 4: that you couldn't do in your family comfortably.
Speaker 3: Express myself, openly, speak openly.
Speaker 4: And what were the kinds of things that you shared
Speaker 4: with them?
Speaker 3: Simple things like, Oh, I really like this book that
Speaker 3: I am writing, or let's watch these particular television shows
Speaker 3: because we like them.
Speaker 4: Were you ever able to share some of your feelings
Speaker 4: with them, like I have a crush on this person,
Speaker 4: or I'm really sad when I'm home with my family
Speaker 4: because I feel like an outsider.
Speaker 3: I did not share feelings about my family with other people.
Speaker 3: I did not do that until I was much older.
Speaker 4: What do you think might have happened if you had
Speaker 4: shared it? You say you didn't have a need, and
Speaker 4: yet you felt so isolated in your family, and I
Speaker 4: imagine hiding this big part of your life felt isolating too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime I expressed something like that within my family,
Speaker 3: I was given the message that that's not right. You're
Speaker 3: absolutely wrong. You are not treated that way. That's not
Speaker 3: how your life is. So I'm not sure why you're
Speaker 3: having those emotions.
Speaker 4: So it sounds like they denied your reality, but your
Speaker 4: friends didn't, And so I'm wondering what held you back
Speaker 4: from talking about the reality of your home life with
Speaker 4: your friends.
Speaker 3: You know, I never had the experience in my life
Speaker 3: of expressing some kind of uncomfortable feeling and having that
Speaker 3: communication help me or make me feel better.
Speaker 2: You're describing your friends as people with whom you had
Speaker 2: the freedom to talk about your experience and your feelings
Speaker 2: as long as those were positive. And I'm not hearing
Speaker 2: that you were able to share with them anything that
Speaker 2: was actually more challenging or painful.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't have much of any experience doing that
Speaker 3: kind of work until I was much older and in therapy.
Speaker 3: How old, probably close to thirty five, right.
Speaker 2: You progressed from not being able to feel you can
Speaker 2: share anything about what you feel in your family to
Speaker 2: at least being able to share the good stuff with friends.
Speaker 2: But then you spent many, many years really feeling that
Speaker 2: if something is painful, there is no one with whom
Speaker 2: I can talk about it, There is no one with
Speaker 2: whom I can share it.
Speaker 3: I spent my life that way.
Speaker 4: What comes to mind is that when you were having
Speaker 4: some difficulty coming up with examples of what made you
Speaker 4: feel feel that way, that because you never got to
Speaker 4: talk to anybody about it, that it's just one big
Speaker 4: blur to you that there was never any processing going
Speaker 4: on at the time of any of these incidents. The
Speaker 4: one thing that sticks with you is the school situation.
Speaker 4: But there must have been so many of them to
Speaker 4: make you feel somewhere deep inside that from a very
Speaker 4: very young age, you felt excluded, like an outsider, alone
Speaker 4: in pain, but with nobody to go to, your reality
Speaker 4: being denied in so many different ways. And I'm thinking
Speaker 4: of later when you were verbal and your mother would say, oh, no,
Speaker 4: that's not really what's happening in this house, or you
Speaker 4: don't really feel that way. When you're a baby, what
Speaker 4: you do to communicate some kind of discomfort as you cry?
Speaker 1: And we don't have.
Speaker 4: Memories of this that are very articulate, but we have
Speaker 4: sense memories of where we responded to when we cried,
Speaker 4: How were we responded to, where we responded to in
Speaker 4: a perfunctory way, like someone did come and change our
Speaker 4: diaper and feed us, but they didn't really hold us
Speaker 4: and delight in us. During your first year or so
Speaker 4: of life, your mother was left alone with you. Your
Speaker 4: brother had been kidnapped. I don't know if she knew
Speaker 4: where he was. I assume she knew that. No she didn't,
Speaker 4: you're shaking year head. No, so she had no idea
Speaker 4: where your brother was. And she must have been frantic,
Speaker 4: as any mother would be in that situation, and here
Speaker 4: she was trying to manage the child she did have
Speaker 4: at home, frantic over the loss of the child that
Speaker 4: she didn't know where he was. And I imagine that
Speaker 4: when she was reunited with him it was such a
Speaker 4: relief to her. But also she must have held done
Speaker 4: very tightly to him because he had been taken away,
Speaker 4: and for all that time she was grieving a loss,
Speaker 4: and then here he is, and she doesn't want to
Speaker 4: lose him again. She had never lost you, And whether
Speaker 4: she meant to or not, it sounds like somehow that
Speaker 4: played out. And what happened in your early childhood when
Speaker 4: your brother was back? Yeah, when I was describing that,
Speaker 4: what was coming up for you? What were you feeling
Speaker 4: as I was talking about that.
Speaker 3: The way you described it made it sound perhaps better
Speaker 3: than the situation actually was. I don't think she wanted
Speaker 3: to have that second baby in the house. And I
Speaker 3: don't think she wanted to have a second child.
Speaker 4: What makes you think that she didn't want to have
Speaker 4: a second child? Did somebody say something about that later
Speaker 4: when you were older?
Speaker 3: Oh, she has said many many times, but she didn't
Speaker 3: want to have a second child.
Speaker 2: She said that when you were young to you.
Speaker 3: She did not say that when I was young. No,
Speaker 3: she said that when I was older.
Speaker 2: Because it's not just her that didn't want to have
Speaker 2: a second child. Your biological dad.
Speaker 3: He did not want to have a second child either.
Speaker 3: He was very close to my brother. My brother was
Speaker 3: born and the three of them had their thing, and yeah,
Speaker 3: when I was born, I was not wanted. I doesn't
Speaker 3: want to buy any of them. And you know, they
Speaker 3: they just lived their lives like that was like, that
Speaker 3: was fine.
Speaker 1: How did it come to light later on that that
Speaker 1: was the situation where they did not want to have
Speaker 1: a second child.
Speaker 3: Anytime a conversation came up about having two children and
Speaker 3: my mother would put her foot down and say, you
Speaker 3: should not have two children.
Speaker 2: How did that feel to you?
Speaker 3: Oh? God, awful, absolutely awful.
Speaker 2: Would you tell her as an adult mom? That is
Speaker 2: so painful when you say that my experience growing up
Speaker 2: was that you didn't want to have two children. It's
Speaker 2: so painful when you're saying that to me. Now.
Speaker 3: Oh, I would never. I would never say something like
Speaker 3: that to her.
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 3: I would say. Over the last maybe five to ten years,
Speaker 3: I have had a few instances where I was able
Speaker 3: to have a fright conversation with her about a situation
Speaker 3: like that. But before that, I would not say something
Speaker 3: like that to my mother because there's just there's a
Speaker 3: dynamic in the relationship that would not allow for me
Speaker 3: to be that vulnerable with her.
Speaker 2: Are these fears because of your childhood when she was
Speaker 2: unable to respond to your feelings and your needs? Or
Speaker 2: is this that you felt afraid to get in touch
Speaker 2: with how painful it is to say something like that
Speaker 2: to your mom and then risk her again ignoring you,
Speaker 2: or again dismissing your feelings or again arguing with your reality.
Speaker 2: What is it you think that held you back.
Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily clear enough in my own feelings to
Speaker 3: be able to say, oh, Mom, you know when you
Speaker 3: say that kind of a thing, it really makes me
Speaker 3: hurt a lot. I didn't have the language skill to
Speaker 3: be able to say that. And also I had the
Speaker 3: fear that she would react to me in a way
Speaker 3: that dismissed what I said, or that she like what
Speaker 3: I said would make her upset, and then she would
Speaker 3: lash out to me, or she would treat me poorly
Speaker 3: because I caused her to have that kind of an
Speaker 3: emotional response.
Speaker 2: So you said you did have a few conversations with
Speaker 2: her in which you were able to express things as
Speaker 2: an adult.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: She told me one time that this particular year when
Speaker 3: I was a child, she said, oh, that was the
Speaker 3: best year. I just really loved that year.
Speaker 1: And I said to her, wow, that was.
Speaker 3: That was probably the worst year of my life.
Speaker 1: Which year are we talking about.
Speaker 3: I was in the fourth grade, and I said, wow,
Speaker 3: that was a really that was a terrible year for me,
Speaker 3: and she kind of laughed, like her initial response was, Paha,
Speaker 3: you know, I can't believe that was your experience. And
Speaker 3: then she realized that she had just said that, and
Speaker 3: then she said, oh, I'm sorry that I didn't know
Speaker 3: that that was the experience that you were having during
Speaker 3: that year.
Speaker 2: So finally a moment of acknowledgment after thirty however many
Speaker 2: years at that point. What did that feel like to
Speaker 2: you to hear her acknowledge something of your experience.
Speaker 3: It was a good moment. It was fleeting, you know,
Speaker 3: it was a small moment. It allowed me to feel like, wow,
Speaker 3: she can't actually see other people's experience.
Speaker 4: It felt like, finally, there's a there there.
Speaker 3: I could see her as a bit of a human being.
Speaker 2: You even had a business together. And yet I'm assuming
Speaker 2: that you were never really able then to talk with
Speaker 2: him about your experience growing up and about your experience
Speaker 2: with him growing up, because you weren't having those kinds
Speaker 2: of conversations at that time.
Speaker 3: That's true. We came to an understanding at some point
Speaker 3: around high school that we had both grown up in
Speaker 3: a home that was very messed up.
Speaker 1: Who started talking about it.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it was a conversation. It was more
Speaker 3: of a sort of passing acknowledgment of like, you know,
Speaker 3: tipping our heads to each other with a small comment
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, we've been in this together. Like if
Speaker 3: I was having a hard time communicating with a boyfriend.
Speaker 2: Say, and you will tell him about it.
Speaker 3: Well, he would know that it was happening because he
Speaker 3: was there. So no, I wouldn't necessarily have those kinds
Speaker 3: of conversations with him. We would have some kind of joke,
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, well we weren't really taught to be
Speaker 3: human beings as children.
Speaker 4: So was the idea that he felt that way too.
Speaker 3: So his experience of his childhood is not good. I
Speaker 3: can't speak to his to what his experience was I mean,
Speaker 3: we have not had these conversations. I think my brother
Speaker 3: is a wounded individual, not in the same way, but
Speaker 3: in a very deep way, in the way that I
Speaker 3: am a wounded individual in a very deep way.
Speaker 2: And I think that when you acknowledged we were in
Speaker 2: this together, you were acknowledging yeah, we were both wounded
Speaker 2: here and in different ways, but you actually weren't in
Speaker 2: it together at all, because he was the baby that
Speaker 2: your parents wanted and you were the one they didn't.
Speaker 2: He was the one that was fused with your mom.
Speaker 2: He was the one whose choices were prioritized, and you
Speaker 2: were the one that felt excluded and left out and
Speaker 2: not part of the family. And he didn't like you either,
Speaker 2: you said. And so you were actually very much not
Speaker 2: in it together. And so I'm curious when you say, oh,
Speaker 2: we were in it together, did you not feel that?
Speaker 2: But actually we weren't.
Speaker 3: We were raised in the same home, we were raised
Speaker 3: by the same people.
Speaker 4: Just because you were raised in the same environment doesn't
Speaker 4: mean that you you are experiencing the environment in the
Speaker 4: same way. And so that's why siblings can have vastly
Speaker 4: different experiences growing up in the very same household and
Speaker 4: so it sounds like you have this idea that, well,
Speaker 4: we both grew up in the same environment, so therefore
Speaker 4: we have the same kinds of wounds. I think you
Speaker 4: have very different experiences of growing up in the same household,
Speaker 4: like many siblings do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't doubt that we had a vastly different
Speaker 3: experience of the world. I know that's true.
Speaker 2: You said that you got close as you were teenagers
Speaker 2: and young adults. You were close, but only to a
Speaker 2: point because you couldn't really share with him what your
Speaker 2: feelings were about your childhood, that he was part of
Speaker 2: that ecosystem that rejected you or dismissed you. You weren't
Speaker 2: able to share that with him at that time, and
Speaker 2: so the closeness was there comparatively, probably felt quite strong.
Speaker 2: But I'm thinking also of the way when you started
Speaker 2: having friends, it felt like, oh, I finally have these friends,
Speaker 2: except they weren't friends you could share emotional pain with.
Speaker 2: Much like when you got close with your brother as
Speaker 2: a teenager and a young adult. It was despite the
Speaker 2: fact that you couldn't really share with him any emotionally
Speaker 2: painful things. The closest that came to that is that
Speaker 2: when he would see you have an issue with the boyfriend,
Speaker 2: that'd be this kind of nod of recognition of yeah,
Speaker 2: wel we came from that house, and so of course
Speaker 2: we're going to have issues. And I'm wondering whether with
Speaker 2: your brother was he able to share with you his
Speaker 2: hurts from childhood in an overt, clear way rather than
Speaker 2: just that wink of recognition between two siblings have been
Speaker 2: through it.
Speaker 3: No, he never shared those things with me. He spaid
Speaker 3: ten years in therapy his twenties, you know, mid twenties
Speaker 3: to mid thirties and therapy, so he, at a much
Speaker 3: younger age than me, found what I can assume to
Speaker 3: be a situation where he could have those conversations with someone,
Speaker 3: but they weren't with me.
Speaker 4: But he revealed to you at the time that he
Speaker 4: was going to therapy, And did you think I might
Speaker 4: want to do that?
Speaker 3: I did not at that time.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that I had a very hard shell.
Speaker 3: It didn't allow me to see that communicating these things
Speaker 3: could be helpful.
Speaker 1: What was the impetus for you in your mid thirties
Speaker 1: for deciding to go to therapy.
Speaker 3: I had come out of a relationship with a man,
Speaker 3: and that relationship ended, and it was very painful, and
Speaker 3: I came to the realization that if I was going
Speaker 3: to have a relationship with any man in the future
Speaker 3: and I wanted it to work, that I was going
Speaker 3: to need to change.
Speaker 4: What were you noticing that was going on in this
Speaker 4: relationship that made it difficult for you to be in it?
Speaker 3: That I had very big and very painful feelings that
Speaker 3: I had no way to communicate with this person.
Speaker 4: About, meaning you didn't communicate them, or when you did,
Speaker 4: it came out in a way that made it hard
Speaker 4: for him to be there for you.
Speaker 3: I didn't communicate them with him. I wasn't able to.
Speaker 3: I literally could not speak in those situations.
Speaker 2: And so when did that start to change? When were
Speaker 2: you able to start talking about your feelings in a
Speaker 2: vulnerable way and to whom well?
Speaker 3: I started seeing a therapist probably within a month after
Speaker 3: that relationship ended, and that that person taught me that
Speaker 3: if someone is open to and available for that kind
Speaker 3: of communication, that it is possible to sit and look
Speaker 3: at someone in the face and talk to them about
Speaker 3: your biguest, most painful feeling. I mean, I met my
Speaker 3: partner probably while I was still going through this therapy
Speaker 3: I was thirty four years old, and I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: never had a relationship with someone that I trust, so
Speaker 3: now I have one. I'm only laughing because it just
Speaker 3: sounds ridiculous to me.
Speaker 2: Given everything that you're describing, it would be practically shocking
Speaker 2: if you were able to trust someone.
Speaker 3: I think it's ridiculous. It seems to me. I always
Speaker 3: intellectually understood what trust was, but I never had an
Speaker 3: experience of it.
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, Zoe, because it sounds a little bit
Speaker 2: like you've internalized some of what you were getting as
Speaker 2: a child in which your feelings were being dismissed and invalidated,
Speaker 2: that you're still doing that to yourself, and just pointing
Speaker 2: that out, because when you grow up with so much
Speaker 2: blanket and validation, it's difficult not to internalize some bit
Speaker 2: and then it seeps out sometimes and you find yourself
Speaker 2: saying something, admitting to a feeling that is so natural
Speaker 2: given the circumstance, but looking at it and going like, oh,
Speaker 2: but that's silly, and it's very much not silly. Do
Speaker 2: you notice that you do that, that you might still
Speaker 2: be invalidating your feelings.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I do that, certainly from time to time, I
Speaker 3: would say that I make a choice to perhaps not
Speaker 3: connect to that pain in some moments.
Speaker 4: What guys talking about is partly being able to acknowledge
Speaker 4: the pain, But the other part is what he was
Speaker 4: saying about self compassion. When you're talking about your experiences
Speaker 4: and you judge yourself like it took me this long
Speaker 4: before I could do this. Well, of course, because of
Speaker 4: what you experienced, and that's what happened in your family.
Speaker 4: You'd say I'm feeling this and they would say, well, no,
Speaker 4: you're not, that's not your experience, or that shouldn't be
Speaker 4: your experience. You kind of do that to yourself absolutely.
Speaker 4: And it sounds like when you went to therapy, it
Speaker 4: was the first time that you were able to sit
Speaker 4: with someone and not have them dismiss or discount what
Speaker 4: your experience was. And I think it's not a coincidence
Speaker 4: that you met this person right as you started going
Speaker 4: to therapy, and here was this person who was able
Speaker 4: to be with you in a way that I think
Speaker 4: you longed for for a very long time. And so
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about that relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been seven years since we met. My relationship
Speaker 3: with him started out this sort of beautiful way in
Speaker 3: a way that I had never seen a relationship happen,
Speaker 3: and that was very meaningful for me. I wasn't able
Speaker 3: to see the therapist continuously, and so at some point
Speaker 3: I had to say, this has been an incredibly powerful
Speaker 3: time for me, but I can't see you any longer
Speaker 3: those for financial reasons, so I stopped seeing her. So,
Speaker 3: you know, situations would arise in my relationship with Mark
Speaker 3: that may be unhappy, and I would do whatever form
Speaker 3: of communicating I could that I thought would sort of
Speaker 3: pave the way for open and honest dialogue. Oftentimes, my
Speaker 3: communication tactics didn't work and we ended up not communicating
Speaker 3: clearly about things that made me unhappy in the relationship.
Speaker 4: Is the reason that you and Mark haven't gone to
Speaker 4: therapy a financial reason?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: The first thing that came to mind when you were
Speaker 4: saying that your brother went to therapy for about ten
Speaker 4: years starting in his twenties, was this issue of finances.
Speaker 4: I wondered if there was some envy that you had
Speaker 4: of his ability to go and work through some of
Speaker 4: this stuff from childhood in a way that maybe you
Speaker 4: didn't have access to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was worried about money in having children.
Speaker 2: I want to get to your brother who said he
Speaker 2: became an engineer, I think you said, and started making money.
Speaker 2: And that's what you identified is creating a bit of
Speaker 2: a witch between you. Tell us how that happened.
Speaker 3: When Derek met Carol, the primary reason that he was
Speaker 3: so attracted to her is that she's extremely well adjusted.
Speaker 3: She's very happy, she knows how to communicate her wants
Speaker 3: and her needs. She gets what she wants from her life.
Speaker 3: She's very satisfied, and that was the primary reason that
Speaker 3: Derek wanted to marry her. So my brother and I
Speaker 3: and his wife, we have had times where we spend
Speaker 3: time together and we're great friends. What I have found
Speaker 3: over the last few years is that I don't have
Speaker 3: any ability to talk with them about things that are
Speaker 3: going on in my life that aren't positive. So it's
Speaker 3: like I am in that same dynamic again where I
Speaker 3: have these fair weather friends who I really like, I
Speaker 3: really love them, but I can't be honest with them
Speaker 3: about my real experience in the world.
Speaker 4: Necessarily, what makes you think that you can't talk to
Speaker 4: them about what's really going on in your life.
Speaker 3: Well, with Carol, she doesn't react empathetically. When I was
Speaker 3: in my last pregnancy, I was very sick and I
Speaker 3: was very socially isolated, and every now and then she
Speaker 3: would text me and she would say, oh, how are
Speaker 3: you And I would say, oh my god, I am
Speaker 3: doing terribly. This is awful. I can't believe how bad
Speaker 3: it is right now. And she would reply to my
Speaker 3: texts bummer.
Speaker 4: Not like, hey, can I bring you something? Do you
Speaker 4: need help? Can I keep you company?
Speaker 3: Nothing like that. She never once brought me anything or
Speaker 3: came to my house or offered to help with my child.
Speaker 3: I had a four year old child. She never once
Speaker 3: offered to watch my kid for five minutes.
Speaker 4: What about your brother when you were pregnant and if
Speaker 4: you had said to him, hey, I'm really struggling, was
Speaker 4: he more empathetic.
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I don't remember really even communicating with
Speaker 3: him during my pregnancy.
Speaker 4: And yet you were so close. Weren't you running a
Speaker 4: business together.
Speaker 3: We stopped running our business together right before he had
Speaker 3: his first child, so there were many years where we
Speaker 3: weren't necessarily seeing each other very often, we weren't talking.
Speaker 2: Have you had an experience of sharing something painful with
Speaker 2: your brother, in which he responded poorly or without empathy.
Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely. I gave birth to my son in April
Speaker 3: of last year, and when he turned a year old,
Speaker 3: I said to my brother a number of times, you know,
Speaker 3: it's been really challenging for me. We've had twelve months
Speaker 3: of three hundred and sixty five days, twenty four hours
Speaker 3: a day of caring for this infant, and we haven't
Speaker 3: had a single moment during that time for someone else
Speaker 3: to watch him. And twice in a row my brother responded, Oh,
Speaker 3: you're gonna value this time. This is a really special
Speaker 3: time for you, guys. It's really going to be meaningful someday.
Speaker 1: Much like you got growing up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's how I feel my brother treats me nowadays.
Speaker 2: Was there a time where you were able to share
Speaker 2: painful moments or struggles where he would respond with more
Speaker 2: empathy and compassion.
Speaker 3: Definitely when we were working together. If I had something
Speaker 3: happen with a friend that made me upset, I was
Speaker 3: able to talk with him about that and he was
Speaker 3: able to say, I understand why you're upset at this moment.
Speaker 1: What was that like for you to hear that, To
Speaker 1: finally hear someone in your family say yeah, I understand
Speaker 1: that you're feeling that way. It makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: Fall pleasures, you know, yeah, I could take that moment
Speaker 3: as this is a genuine experience in life.
Speaker 2: In your letter, you indicated you thought that what has
Speaker 2: caused some of the emotional drifting between you is the
Speaker 2: financial disparity or the change in his financial circumstance. Tell
Speaker 2: us why you think that is what was under allowing
Speaker 2: some of this change.
Speaker 3: What I see as what happened was when I had
Speaker 3: my first child. Once that child went to childcare, we
Speaker 3: were literally spending all of the money that we made
Speaker 3: every month on living, child care and our lives. Literally
Speaker 3: every dollar that we brought in went out to pay
Speaker 3: for things. And so I think there was a time
Speaker 3: period where if we were hanging out, you know, I
Speaker 3: would say something like, yeah, we can't afford that kind
Speaker 3: of a thing. And maybe some time went on like
Speaker 3: that before I realized that Derek and Carroll, or Carol specifically,
Speaker 3: was really annoyed. She was really annoyed that I would
Speaker 3: talk about money like that in that way.
Speaker 4: In other words, they would say, hey, we went on
Speaker 4: this vacation, or we bought such and.
Speaker 3: Such, We would say, Oh, have you guys tried this
Speaker 3: new restaurant. It's really you know, everybody's talking about and
Speaker 3: it's really great. We went and it was really awesome,
Speaker 3: and I would say, yeah, you know, we're not eating
Speaker 3: at restaurants right now. We don't have the money. When
Speaker 3: I realized that she was displeased with those kinds of comments,
Speaker 3: it made me want to hang out with her less.
Speaker 3: And it also made me hyper aware of the fact that, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to make an effort to not say those
Speaker 3: kinds of things.
Speaker 1: What about how your brother would react.
Speaker 3: I don't know that he was annoyed by it, but
Speaker 3: what I noticed around that same time was that they
Speaker 3: were often communicating about how they were spending so much money.
Speaker 3: So the conversation would be, oh, yeah, we just went
Speaker 3: to Hawaii for five weeks. It made me feel like,
Speaker 3: are we not allowed to be honest with each other
Speaker 3: in this relationship? I feel like if I communicate openly
Speaker 3: about the things that I'm struggling with in life, that
Speaker 3: those conversations are shot down, And you know, it's come
Speaker 3: to the point where these people are acting like annoyed
Speaker 3: with me.
Speaker 4: That sounds so familiar that when you would bring up
Speaker 4: something that made other people uncomfortable as a child, they
Speaker 4: would get annoyed with you. Yeah, And the other commonality
Speaker 4: is that theme of exclusion that they are able to
Speaker 4: live in this way. While you said twenty four to seven,
Speaker 4: you're thinking about money and what you don't have and
Speaker 4: your brother does have it, And I think that that
Speaker 4: somehow brings up that very old feeling of he's in
Speaker 4: and I'm out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. They have a lot of child's care, They have
Speaker 3: a lot of family close by who takes care of
Speaker 3: their children for them. They have a lot of freedom,
Speaker 3: they have a lot of time to spend, they have
Speaker 3: a lot of money. They just they have all these
Speaker 3: things and we don't have those things.
Speaker 4: So are we talking about envy because I imagine when you
Speaker 4: were young you felt very envious of your brother's position
Speaker 4: in the family and what he was getting, even if
Speaker 4: it had its problems.
Speaker 3: It certainly is envy. I mean envy in a way
Speaker 3: that's like, yeah, I wish I had those things too.
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.
Speaker 3: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.
Speaker 2: And that's the third part that's familiar is that when
Speaker 2: you feel that, what you do is you have a
Speaker 2: hard time addressing it and talking about it directly and
Speaker 2: saying to your brother, can we please talk about the
Speaker 2: tensions that happened between us when we talk about finances,
Speaker 2: and you in caase what you have in my guess
Speaker 2: what I don't. That's the other pattern that continues that
Speaker 2: your response to that is to kind of close up
Speaker 2: and withdraw.
Speaker 3: Perhaps, Yeah, it's definitely what I'm doing is withdrawing from
Speaker 3: the situation.
Speaker 1: What would you like to see happen if you were
Speaker 1: able to talk to him? Meaning, what would you like
Speaker 1: to see go differently? Maybe it's more about wanting your
Speaker 1: brother to recognize that maybe this is hard for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think certainly them recognizing that my life has
Speaker 3: become much more difficult over the years while their lives
Speaker 3: has become much easier. So I would like to see them, yeah,
Speaker 3: be able to accept.
Speaker 4: That, accept that or acknowledge it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, to acknowledge the fact that my life is much
Speaker 3: more difficult now than it was before would be nice,
Speaker 3: and to give some room in the relationship for the
Speaker 3: fact that everything is not perfect in my life, and perhaps.
Speaker 2: To have some sensitivity to that that maybe you're not
Speaker 2: the best audience for how fabulous Hawaii was, or you
Speaker 2: must try the snee restaurant. Everyone's raving about it when
Speaker 2: you're like, we're not trying with duns right now. To
Speaker 2: have more sensitivity.
Speaker 3: To have some sensitivity would be great. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And the other part of it that I think is
Speaker 4: important is less about them and more about you, which
Speaker 4: is you're not the child who's at the mercy of
Speaker 4: what people in the family are deciding in terms of
Speaker 4: who's in and who's out, and who gets something and
Speaker 4: who doesn't get something, and who gets to go to
Speaker 4: the school they want, and who doesn't get to go
Speaker 4: to the school that they want. And I wonder if
Speaker 4: you've internalized some of that messaging that you don't get
Speaker 4: to have and so you don't try to have. In
Speaker 4: other words, you kind of accept, well, my relationship isn't
Speaker 4: where I want it to be, but oh well, and
Speaker 4: we're really struggling with money, but oh well, as opposed
Speaker 4: to really opening up your imagination to what might I
Speaker 4: be able to do now that nobody's holding me back
Speaker 4: to have the kind of relationship that I want to have.
Speaker 4: What might need to happen there, or what might we
Speaker 4: as a couple do to change our financial situation so
Speaker 4: that we can have some of the things that maybe
Speaker 4: we want, so that you're not always pressed up against
Speaker 4: the glass saying, Oh, I'm stuck in here and my
Speaker 4: brother has all these things that I want.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you saying that it's definitely some of those
Speaker 3: things are things that I am addressing, and some of
Speaker 3: those things are things that I had thought to address.
Speaker 4: We have this saying follow your envy. It tells you
Speaker 4: what you want. And sometimes we don't like to acknowledge
Speaker 4: our envy because we feel like it makes us small
Speaker 4: or petty, but actually it helps us to get in
Speaker 4: touch with our desires. It helps us to say I
Speaker 4: want that. So when you were young and you wanted
Speaker 4: what your brother had in some way, even though it
Speaker 4: was dysfunctional in a different way, there was some elements
Speaker 4: of it that you wanted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my brother seemed to have a healthy relationship with
Speaker 3: my mother.
Speaker 4: What he had was her love in a way that
Speaker 4: was different from her love for you.
Speaker 1: And now he.
Speaker 4: Has somebody that he's married to who seems to have
Speaker 4: had so much trauma growing up, And I think that
Speaker 4: on the one hand, you feel like that makes it
Speaker 4: hard for her to connect with you or you to
Speaker 4: connect with her. But on the other hand, I think
Speaker 4: there might be some envy there that she's had it easier,
Speaker 4: and that might make you put up some walls where
Speaker 4: maybe there could be more of a relationship there it
Speaker 4: feels better. And then you have your brother having more
Speaker 4: help with the kids and more financial freedom, and maybe
Speaker 4: there's a way that you could have a better relationship
Speaker 4: and more financial freedom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we think that there are ways perhaps
Speaker 2: that you can shape off still some more of the
Speaker 2: old habits and perspectives which were very paralyzing. And if
Speaker 2: you're very helpless and realize that you can take certain
Speaker 2: actions and speak up about certain things now in ways
Speaker 2: that you truly agree in your childhood and even an
Speaker 2: YOURNDI adults.
Speaker 1: So, Zoe, we have some advice for you, and it's
Speaker 1: in a few parts. The first part is that we
Speaker 1: would like you to have a conversation with your brother
Speaker 1: in which you say to him, I feel this tension
Speaker 1: between us now as adults, this distance that's growing between us,
Speaker 1: and I think part of it has to do with
Speaker 1: the fact that your life looks different from my life financially,
Speaker 1: and I think that that's bringing up some old feelings
Speaker 1: in me around exclusion and other experiences that I had
Speaker 1: growing up. And I would love to be able to
Speaker 1: talk with you because I think that it will help
Speaker 1: me to feel closer to you, and it will will
Speaker 1: help with some of this tension and distance that's going
Speaker 1: on between us now, and then to really be able
Speaker 1: to talk with him about what it was like when
Speaker 1: you found out from your mom that they didn't want
Speaker 1: a second child, and what it was like to see
Speaker 1: that closeness that he had with your mom and at
Speaker 1: the same time feeling like, but I also want a
Speaker 1: relationship with my brother, and even as an adult, really
Speaker 1: wanting a relationship with him, and how a lot of.
Speaker 4: That is coming up again because you're seeing this difference
Speaker 4: and it sort of magnified something that you feel like
Speaker 4: would maybe not feel so big if you could talk
Speaker 4: about some of these things that you've never talked about,
Speaker 4: because he's really the only other person that was there.
Speaker 3: I like that idea.
Speaker 2: The second part of that conversation with there, it is
Speaker 2: to say and I do want to address to find
Speaker 2: outential difference between us because right now. I think it's
Speaker 2: a point of tension that you guys talk about what
Speaker 2: you do and we talk about what we can't do
Speaker 2: as a response. But I think there's room for both.
Speaker 2: I think there's room for us to be excited for
Speaker 2: you about the things that you can do, about your
Speaker 2: trip to Hawaii and the great new restaurant you tried,
Speaker 2: and there's room at the same time for you guys
Speaker 2: to be compassionate toward us and sympathetic that we're not
Speaker 2: in that place where we can do those things. The
Speaker 2: two can exist together, and I think we've kind of
Speaker 2: been dancing around it and feeling tense about how do
Speaker 2: you talk about your lives without upsetting us and how
Speaker 2: do we talk about hours without upsetting you? But there's
Speaker 2: room for both, and perhaps we can agree that we
Speaker 2: can be supportive and excited for you, and that you
Speaker 2: guys can be sympathetic to us, that those things can
Speaker 2: happen at the same time.
Speaker 4: Maybe if there was a little bit more acknowledgement, because
Speaker 4: when we were growing up, there was not a lot
Speaker 4: of acknowledgment around my pain, that if there's a little
Speaker 4: bit more acknowledgment that we are in different situations it
Speaker 4: would free me up to truly be excited and happy
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 2: And the last part is we would like you and
Speaker 2: your husband to find a low fee clinic, which is
Speaker 2: much easier to do these days because it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be something that's geographically possible because of Zoom. But
Speaker 2: there are in many teaching institutions, universities, all kinds of
Speaker 2: low fee clinics, and you would like you to find
Speaker 2: one that does couple's therapy, and if your husband would agree,
Speaker 2: because we think you do need a facilitator to help
Speaker 2: you talk and for you to feel safe, because we
Speaker 2: think that's quite important that you can talk together, not
Speaker 2: just about the relationship, but what changes can you make
Speaker 2: in your lives to gain a little bit more financial
Speaker 2: breathing room than you have at the moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was this sense as a child, because it
Speaker 4: was true that you were trapped by those circumstances. You
Speaker 4: might feel more comfortable in the old story, but we
Speaker 4: want to help you to feel more comfortable moving into
Speaker 4: this newer.
Speaker 2: Place wonderful and so we look forward to hearing how
Speaker 2: that goes.
Speaker 1: So this was one of those sessions where it seemed
Speaker 1: like the issue was about money and it is, but
Speaker 1: there was so much from the past to unpack as well,
Speaker 1: and we gave her a lot to do in terms
Speaker 1: of opening up those conversations, and that might be a
Speaker 1: little hard for her to do.
Speaker 2: And we always find that money is such an uncomfortable
Speaker 2: topic for people to address, and so I think, both
Speaker 2: for her and maybe for her brother, that might be
Speaker 2: difficult to actually talk about. But I do hope that
Speaker 2: they at least talk about the relationship, or at least
Speaker 2: start to communicate in some deeper way, because I think
Speaker 2: that would be very useful for her.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when you start
Speaker 1: looking at opening up a conversation with somebody close to
Speaker 1: you is you might start looking at the other relationships
Speaker 1: around you, like we did with her husband, And I
Speaker 1: really hope that she follows through and is able to
Speaker 1: open up a conversation with her husband so that she
Speaker 1: can focus on that relationship as well. The issue with
Speaker 1: her brother doesn't supersede this really important work that it
Speaker 1: seems like she has to do in her marriage.
Speaker 2: So it'll be interesting to see if once she has
Speaker 2: one of those conversations, whether that gives her confidence to
Speaker 2: be able to have the other you're listening to deo
Speaker 2: therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.
Speaker 1: So we heard that from Zoe, and we asked her
Speaker 1: to have two difficult conversations, the first with her brother
Speaker 1: and the second with her husband. So let's hear how
Speaker 1: they went.
Speaker 6: So I didn't make the call right away because I
Speaker 6: was so anxious.
Speaker 5: I did allow some time to pass, which allowed me
Speaker 5: to really process my own experience.
Speaker 1: Which was good.
Speaker 6: So when I talk to him, we had, you know,
Speaker 6: our standard chat at first, which has really made up
Speaker 6: all of the time that we have spent together. I
Speaker 6: would say over the last probably two years, has been
Speaker 6: just standard chat small talk, which I feel like small
Speaker 6: talk just makes me feel small all But anyway, our
Speaker 6: conversation was able to go to a very open and
Speaker 6: honest and vulnerable place, which was really wonderful. We talked
Speaker 6: for about two hours and I was able to speak
Speaker 6: with my brother about my own experience of childhood, and
Speaker 6: he definitely had a few moments where he was like, yeah,
Speaker 6: you were ridiculously emotional, which could not make me feel good.
Speaker 6: But I was able to be clear with him and
Speaker 6: let him know, yeah, I'm an emotional person like to me,
Speaker 6: my superpower is having very strong emotions about things. So
Speaker 6: we were able to talk about or experienceeriences in childhood,
Speaker 6: and he tried to make it clear to me that
Speaker 6: he was equally unhappy about our childhood as I was.
Speaker 6: After I had the conversation, I felt a huge load
Speaker 6: off of my shoulders. I mean, I realized that my
Speaker 6: brother I was just doing the best that he can
Speaker 6: and honestly, to hear him talk about how difficult.
Speaker 3: Life is for him.
Speaker 7: You know, he still very deeply carries the scars of
Speaker 7: his childhood and they really affect his day to day life.
Speaker 7: It made me happy that he was able to be
Speaker 7: honest with me. I feel like, for so long he
Speaker 7: puts on this smiling, happy face every time I see him,
Speaker 7: and I just.
Speaker 5: Feel like it's I feel like it's bony.
Speaker 3: I feel like it's fake.
Speaker 5: And so to have him be real with me and
Speaker 5: tell him what his real experience of life is, that
Speaker 5: felt really good.
Speaker 3: With my partner.
Speaker 5: You know, it's really the first time that we sat
Speaker 5: down and had lunch together, probably was the day after
Speaker 5: we've had this conversation in the past where I say,
Speaker 5: you know, I really think that we need to have
Speaker 5: professional help, and we've both agreed that it's a good
Speaker 5: idea and that we should do it, but we haven't
Speaker 5: done it. So there's a lot of fear involved with
Speaker 5: just sort facing this issue. But I had a conversation
Speaker 5: with him and went, well, you know, he he's open
Speaker 5: to the idea.
Speaker 3: I perhaps even saw a flicker of excitement over the prospect.
Speaker 3: There's a little bit of a sort of a sunny possibility,
Speaker 3: like we could have a better life. So yeah, I
Speaker 3: am happy that we.
Speaker 1: Are doing this thing right now.
Speaker 3: So it feels good to be like we're both on
Speaker 3: the same pie.
Speaker 5: There is a possibility of something good happening.
Speaker 3: It's different in our lives.
Speaker 2: So when Zoe says that small talk makes her feel small,
Speaker 2: it's because she is yearning to feel that connection. And
Speaker 2: connection does not happen with small talk. It happens with
Speaker 2: meaningful conversation, with actually talking about the relationship between you.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad she's uncomfortable with small talk, and I'm
Speaker 2: glad that she feels like she doesn't want that anymore
Speaker 2: with her brother, because she really does need to connect
Speaker 2: with him, And it sounds like they took a good
Speaker 2: first step in that direction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad that she stood her ground and
Speaker 1: was able to say to her brother, feelings are my superpower.
Speaker 1: The fact that I can feel things is a strength
Speaker 1: of mind, and to reframe that and to use that
Speaker 1: as a starting point for these conversations. They didn't get
Speaker 1: to the money part of the conversation, and I think
Speaker 1: that's okay, because right now, what was important was they
Speaker 1: started to acknowledge the reality of their childhoods. I think
Speaker 1: will give them some common ground from which to have
Speaker 1: these other conversations that bring them up to the present.
Speaker 2: And it was so encouraging to hear that when she
Speaker 2: spoke to her husband about going to therapy, she saw
Speaker 2: that spark of excitement in him, because it's so important
Speaker 2: that he be on board with the work she has
Speaker 2: to do. When somebody's been through a lot of trauma,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of healing they need to do, and
Speaker 2: it's wonderful that she can work on that with somebody
Speaker 2: safe like her husband, who knows her, who loves her.
Speaker 2: That will make that work easier for her to do.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, she found her voice with
Speaker 2: her brother as well. And I think that finding your
Speaker 2: voice and then starting to use your voice is always
Speaker 2: the first step when you're trying to heal.
Speaker 1: Next week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost
Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on
Speaker 1: with a new partner.
Speaker 2: It's really hard for me to.
Speaker 8: Open up to him because every time in the past
Speaker 8: that I've opened up about my feelings, it's either ben
Speaker 8: met with rejection or met with OCD. So it's really
Speaker 8: hard for me to trust that I can have a
Speaker 8: safe person to open up to.
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
Speaker 1: are Doric Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.