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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman's resentment of her financially successful brother threatens to

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Speaker 2: tear apart their relationship.

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Speaker 3: They have a lot of freedom, they have a lot

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Speaker 3: of time to spend, they have a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: They just they have all these things and we don't

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Speaker 3: have those things. Yeah, I wish I had those things too.

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Speaker 3: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.

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Speaker 3: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare. Advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn

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Speaker 1: and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.

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Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed

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Speaker 1: for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy, Hey Lourie.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really excited for this week's letter because I

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Speaker 1: hear it has something to do with siblings and money.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does, and money is one of those topics.

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Speaker 2: It's money and sex that people have a very hard

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Speaker 2: time talking about, so I'm glad we have the opportunity here.

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Speaker 2: Here's the letter, Dear therapists. My only brother and I

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Speaker 2: have been closed at times in our lives lives. We

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Speaker 2: have kids the same age who absolutely love to play together.

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Speaker 2: Since having children, time has been in short supply, and

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Speaker 2: we don't connect very often. We spend holidays together and

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Speaker 2: hang out in other ways, maybe three or four times

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Speaker 2: a year. My brother became a software engineer about five

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Speaker 2: years ago and now makes loads of money. We on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, are poorer than we've ever been because

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Speaker 2: we have two children. I feel like we have less

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Speaker 2: and less in common as this difference between us progresses

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Speaker 2: and our relationship is struggling to stay together. Aside from

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Speaker 2: our kids being friends, my brother's family seems to act

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Speaker 2: like everything is perfect, and we want to be close

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Speaker 2: with other families that are struggling with the same issue

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Speaker 2: we are. I'd like to have a relationship with my brother,

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Speaker 2: but I need some guidance and how to navigate this

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Speaker 2: difference so we don't grow further apart. Sincerely, Zoe.

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Speaker 1: Money brings up so many feelings in people, and they

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Speaker 1: feel like they shouldn't talk about it because they feel

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Speaker 1: like it's taboo or they shouldn't have these feelings, And

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Speaker 1: yet it's all around us. We can't ignore it, and

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Speaker 1: when it happens to somebody close to you, like a

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Speaker 1: good friend or a sibling, it becomes kind of like

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Speaker 1: the elephant in the room.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. Some people feel that well, when somebody

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Speaker 2: makes money that they didn't have before, it's going to

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Speaker 2: change them. But really often what it changes are the

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Speaker 2: feelings that person has. Jealousy comes up and becomes up

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Speaker 2: resentment can come up and those things are not dealt with,

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Speaker 2: it can really cause a rupture in the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And with siblings because there's so much history in their relationship,

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Speaker 1: sometimes some of those old wounds start coming up in

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Speaker 1: the form of this question around the money. So let's

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Speaker 1: go talk to her and learn more about what's going

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Speaker 1: on between them.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy

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Speaker 2: Wynn and this is Dear Therapist.

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Speaker 1: So Hi Zoe, Hello Laurie, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Could you tell us a little bit about the relationship

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Speaker 2: with your brother before this financial change, the history of it.

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Speaker 3: Sure. My brother is twenty months older than I am,

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Speaker 3: and I am forty years old now. Around the end

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Speaker 3: of high school, we became very close in our relationship.

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Speaker 3: I would say that our level of intimacy at that

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Speaker 3: time was similar to one of my closest friends, you know,

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Speaker 3: through college. We lived together for a year or two,

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Speaker 3: maybe even three years. We owned a house together in

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Speaker 3: our twenties. We ran a business together in our thirties.

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Speaker 3: It was his business when he closed down his business.

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Speaker 3: He became a software engineer, and then that was five

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Speaker 3: years ago.

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Speaker 4: When you say that you got close in high school,

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Speaker 4: what was your relationship like when you were younger children.

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Speaker 3: There was trauma in the home as children, and we

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Speaker 3: were divided in that trauma.

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Speaker 4: What was going on in your family that created this

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Speaker 4: division between the two of you.

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Speaker 3: So when I was born, my brother was twenty months old.

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Speaker 3: My father had a lot of issues, and after I

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Speaker 3: was born, my mother decided she didn't want to live

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Speaker 3: with him any longer. She was afraid for her life.

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Speaker 3: My father came and took my brother from her home

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Speaker 3: and had him for I think close to a year,

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Speaker 3: and my mother, I can only imagine what her experience

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Speaker 3: was like during that year. So that was the initial trauma.

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Speaker 3: My brother came back, we lived in a completely different

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Speaker 3: part of the country for the rest of our lives,

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Speaker 3: essentially never seeing that man again, obviously in safety. My

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Speaker 3: mother had a very close relationship with my brother, and

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Speaker 3: my mother did not have a very close relationship with me.

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Speaker 3: And I was the outsider as a child.

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Speaker 4: What did that look like their closeness in you being

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Speaker 4: an outsider?

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Speaker 3: It looked like my family didn't really care that much

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Speaker 3: about me.

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Speaker 4: What was actually happening between your mom and your brother

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Speaker 4: that made you feel that way?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean my mom and my brother were best friends,

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Speaker 3: so they had an intimacy amongst themselves that that I

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Speaker 3: didn't have with her or with him. He did not

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Speaker 3: like me as a child. I was in his way.

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Speaker 3: When I got to be an older child. We came

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Speaker 3: to a year where we were going to go to

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Speaker 3: private school, and I wanted to go to one particular

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Speaker 3: private school, and I applied and I was so proud

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Speaker 3: of myself. I got accepted into this prestigious private school,

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Speaker 3: and my parents were happy about the idea. But then

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Speaker 3: they realized that my brother decided to go to a

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Speaker 3: different private school and that they were going to have

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Speaker 3: to drive him to that school. So they weren't going

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Speaker 3: to be able to drive me to the school that

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Speaker 3: I wanted to go to, so I had to go

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Speaker 3: to the school that he wanted.

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Speaker 5: To go to.

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Speaker 2: When did your mom remarry?

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Speaker 3: My mother remarried around I was about eight years old.

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Speaker 2: And what was that like for you when this stepfather

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Speaker 2: came into the picture. How did that impact the dynamics

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Speaker 2: between your mom and your brother?

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Speaker 3: Your mom, and you you know, I think that it

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Speaker 3: was quite equalizing. This idea that, you know, the people

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Speaker 3: who were close to me and my home really didn't

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Speaker 3: like me sort of calmed down a little bit. My

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Speaker 3: mother has told me that once he came into the picture,

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Speaker 3: she thought everything was fine.

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Speaker 4: You use the worst that your family didn't like you.

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Speaker 4: Where did you get the impression that your family didn't

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Speaker 4: like you.

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Speaker 3: My personality is very emotional, and my mother she did

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Speaker 3: not consider her emotions to be a part of her life, really,

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Speaker 3: and so I was raised with this idea that you know,

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Speaker 3: who I am and how I functioned in the world

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Speaker 3: is not okay. You need to turn that off.

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Speaker 4: Was that told you explicitly, like don't be so sensitive

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Speaker 4: or you're too emotional? Or was it implied somehow?

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Speaker 3: It was implied in that I was not responded to

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Speaker 3: in any way if I were showing emotion.

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Speaker 2: Could you give us an example of something that happened

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Speaker 2: that you had an emotional response to that got ignored.

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Speaker 3: This happened from the time that I was born. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm talking about being three years old and

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Speaker 3: understanding that my emotional reaction to things is not gonna

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Speaker 3: matter so I hid my emotions from my family my

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Speaker 3: entire life.

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Speaker 2: Did you have close friends during those childhood years?

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Speaker 3: I would say I had one or two close friends.

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Speaker 2: And what was that like for you? Because your impression

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Speaker 2: was my brother didn't like me, my mom didn't like me.

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Speaker 2: Step that comes in and so that even stinks out

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Speaker 2: a bit, But you felt by yourself like there was

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Speaker 2: no one there to support you, to understand you, to

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Speaker 2: be able to respond to your emotions or your needs.

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Speaker 2: What was it like when you finally started making some

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Speaker 2: close friends and had someone who seemed to really care

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Speaker 2: about you.

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Speaker 3: I would say that's about sixth grade. It was really

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Speaker 3: a life changer for me. You know, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I really became a person at that time. I was

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Speaker 3: able to share my experience and be lighthearted and yeah,

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Speaker 3: like really have the sort of experience of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, this is who I am. This isn't how

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Speaker 3: I act with my family. I don't act like who

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Speaker 3: I really am with them.

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Speaker 4: What was different about how you acted around your friends

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Speaker 4: that you couldn't do in your family comfortably.

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Speaker 3: Express myself, openly, speak openly.

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Speaker 4: And what were the kinds of things that you shared

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Speaker 4: with them?

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Speaker 3: Simple things like, Oh, I really like this book that

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Speaker 3: I am writing, or let's watch these particular television shows

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Speaker 3: because we like them.

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Speaker 4: Were you ever able to share some of your feelings

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Speaker 4: with them, like I have a crush on this person,

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Speaker 4: or I'm really sad when I'm home with my family

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Speaker 4: because I feel like an outsider.

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Speaker 3: I did not share feelings about my family with other people.

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Speaker 3: I did not do that until I was much older.

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Speaker 4: What do you think might have happened if you had

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Speaker 4: shared it? You say you didn't have a need, and

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Speaker 4: yet you felt so isolated in your family, and I

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Speaker 4: imagine hiding this big part of your life felt isolating too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, anytime I expressed something like that within my family,

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Speaker 3: I was given the message that that's not right. You're

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Speaker 3: absolutely wrong. You are not treated that way. That's not

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Speaker 3: how your life is. So I'm not sure why you're

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Speaker 3: having those emotions.

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Speaker 4: So it sounds like they denied your reality, but your

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Speaker 4: friends didn't, And so I'm wondering what held you back

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Speaker 4: from talking about the reality of your home life with

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Speaker 4: your friends.

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Speaker 3: You know, I never had the experience in my life

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Speaker 3: of expressing some kind of uncomfortable feeling and having that

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Speaker 3: communication help me or make me feel better.

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Speaker 2: You're describing your friends as people with whom you had

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Speaker 2: the freedom to talk about your experience and your feelings

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Speaker 2: as long as those were positive. And I'm not hearing

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Speaker 2: that you were able to share with them anything that

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Speaker 2: was actually more challenging or painful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't have much of any experience doing that

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Speaker 3: kind of work until I was much older and in therapy.

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Speaker 3: How old, probably close to thirty five, right.

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Speaker 2: You progressed from not being able to feel you can

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Speaker 2: share anything about what you feel in your family to

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Speaker 2: at least being able to share the good stuff with friends.

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Speaker 2: But then you spent many, many years really feeling that

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Speaker 2: if something is painful, there is no one with whom

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Speaker 2: I can talk about it, There is no one with

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Speaker 2: whom I can share it.

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Speaker 3: I spent my life that way.

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Speaker 4: What comes to mind is that when you were having

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Speaker 4: some difficulty coming up with examples of what made you

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Speaker 4: feel feel that way, that because you never got to

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Speaker 4: talk to anybody about it, that it's just one big

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Speaker 4: blur to you that there was never any processing going

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Speaker 4: on at the time of any of these incidents. The

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Speaker 4: one thing that sticks with you is the school situation.

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Speaker 4: But there must have been so many of them to

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Speaker 4: make you feel somewhere deep inside that from a very

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Speaker 4: very young age, you felt excluded, like an outsider, alone

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Speaker 4: in pain, but with nobody to go to, your reality

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Speaker 4: being denied in so many different ways. And I'm thinking

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Speaker 4: of later when you were verbal and your mother would say, oh, no,

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Speaker 4: that's not really what's happening in this house, or you

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Speaker 4: don't really feel that way. When you're a baby, what

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Speaker 4: you do to communicate some kind of discomfort as you cry?

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Speaker 1: And we don't have.

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Speaker 4: Memories of this that are very articulate, but we have

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Speaker 4: sense memories of where we responded to when we cried,

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Speaker 4: How were we responded to, where we responded to in

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Speaker 4: a perfunctory way, like someone did come and change our

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Speaker 4: diaper and feed us, but they didn't really hold us

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Speaker 4: and delight in us. During your first year or so

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Speaker 4: of life, your mother was left alone with you. Your

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Speaker 4: brother had been kidnapped. I don't know if she knew

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Speaker 4: where he was. I assume she knew that. No she didn't,

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Speaker 4: you're shaking year head. No, so she had no idea

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Speaker 4: where your brother was. And she must have been frantic,

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Speaker 4: as any mother would be in that situation, and here

256
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Speaker 4: she was trying to manage the child she did have

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Speaker 4: at home, frantic over the loss of the child that

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Speaker 4: she didn't know where he was. And I imagine that

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Speaker 4: when she was reunited with him it was such a

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Speaker 4: relief to her. But also she must have held done

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Speaker 4: very tightly to him because he had been taken away,

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Speaker 4: and for all that time she was grieving a loss,

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Speaker 4: and then here he is, and she doesn't want to

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Speaker 4: lose him again. She had never lost you, And whether

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Speaker 4: she meant to or not, it sounds like somehow that

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Speaker 4: played out. And what happened in your early childhood when

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Speaker 4: your brother was back? Yeah, when I was describing that,

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Speaker 4: what was coming up for you? What were you feeling

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Speaker 4: as I was talking about that.

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Speaker 3: The way you described it made it sound perhaps better

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Speaker 3: than the situation actually was. I don't think she wanted

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Speaker 3: to have that second baby in the house. And I

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Speaker 3: don't think she wanted to have a second child.

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Speaker 4: What makes you think that she didn't want to have

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Speaker 4: a second child? Did somebody say something about that later

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Speaker 4: when you were older?

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Speaker 3: Oh, she has said many many times, but she didn't

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Speaker 3: want to have a second child.

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Speaker 2: She said that when you were young to you.

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Speaker 3: She did not say that when I was young. No,

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Speaker 3: she said that when I was older.

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Speaker 2: Because it's not just her that didn't want to have

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Speaker 2: a second child. Your biological dad.

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Speaker 3: He did not want to have a second child either.

285
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Speaker 3: He was very close to my brother. My brother was

286
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Speaker 3: born and the three of them had their thing, and yeah,

287
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Speaker 3: when I was born, I was not wanted. I doesn't

288
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Speaker 3: want to buy any of them. And you know, they

289
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Speaker 3: they just lived their lives like that was like, that

290
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Speaker 3: was fine.

291
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Speaker 1: How did it come to light later on that that

292
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 1: was the situation where they did not want to have

293
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Speaker 1: a second child.

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Speaker 3: Anytime a conversation came up about having two children and

295
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Speaker 3: my mother would put her foot down and say, you

296
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Speaker 3: should not have two children.

297
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Speaker 2: How did that feel to you?

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Speaker 3: Oh? God, awful, absolutely awful.

299
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Speaker 2: Would you tell her as an adult mom? That is

300
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 2: so painful when you say that my experience growing up

301
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Speaker 2: was that you didn't want to have two children. It's

302
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Speaker 2: so painful when you're saying that to me. Now.

303
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 3: Oh, I would never. I would never say something like

304
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Speaker 3: that to her.

305
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Speaker 2: Why not?

306
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Speaker 3: I would say. Over the last maybe five to ten years,

307
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 3: I have had a few instances where I was able

308
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Speaker 3: to have a fright conversation with her about a situation

309
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Speaker 3: like that. But before that, I would not say something

310
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Speaker 3: like that to my mother because there's just there's a

311
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Speaker 3: dynamic in the relationship that would not allow for me

312
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Speaker 3: to be that vulnerable with her.

313
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Speaker 2: Are these fears because of your childhood when she was

314
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,959
Speaker 2: unable to respond to your feelings and your needs? Or

315
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Speaker 2: is this that you felt afraid to get in touch

316
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Speaker 2: with how painful it is to say something like that

317
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Speaker 2: to your mom and then risk her again ignoring you,

318
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Speaker 2: or again dismissing your feelings or again arguing with your reality.

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Speaker 2: What is it you think that held you back.

320
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Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily clear enough in my own feelings to

321
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Speaker 3: be able to say, oh, Mom, you know when you

322
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Speaker 3: say that kind of a thing, it really makes me

323
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Speaker 3: hurt a lot. I didn't have the language skill to

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Speaker 3: be able to say that. And also I had the

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Speaker 3: fear that she would react to me in a way

326
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Speaker 3: that dismissed what I said, or that she like what

327
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Speaker 3: I said would make her upset, and then she would

328
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Speaker 3: lash out to me, or she would treat me poorly

329
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Speaker 3: because I caused her to have that kind of an

330
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Speaker 3: emotional response.

331
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Speaker 2: So you said you did have a few conversations with

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00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 2: her in which you were able to express things as

333
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 2: an adult.

334
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

335
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Speaker 3: She told me one time that this particular year when

336
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,640
Speaker 3: I was a child, she said, oh, that was the

337
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 3: best year. I just really loved that year.

338
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Speaker 1: And I said to her, wow, that was.

339
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Speaker 3: That was probably the worst year of my life.

340
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Speaker 1: Which year are we talking about.

341
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 3: I was in the fourth grade, and I said, wow,

342
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 3: that was a really that was a terrible year for me,

343
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: and she kind of laughed, like her initial response was, Paha,

344
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 3: you know, I can't believe that was your experience. And

345
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 3: then she realized that she had just said that, and

346
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 3: then she said, oh, I'm sorry that I didn't know

347
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 3: that that was the experience that you were having during

348
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 3: that year.

349
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Speaker 2: So finally a moment of acknowledgment after thirty however many

350
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 2: years at that point. What did that feel like to

351
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 2: you to hear her acknowledge something of your experience.

352
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 3: It was a good moment. It was fleeting, you know,

353
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 3: it was a small moment. It allowed me to feel like, wow,

354
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 3: she can't actually see other people's experience.

355
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 4: It felt like, finally, there's a there there.

356
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 3: I could see her as a bit of a human being.

357
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 2: You even had a business together. And yet I'm assuming

358
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: that you were never really able then to talk with

359
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: him about your experience growing up and about your experience

360
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: with him growing up, because you weren't having those kinds

361
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: of conversations at that time.

362
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 3: That's true. We came to an understanding at some point

363
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: around high school that we had both grown up in

364
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 3: a home that was very messed up.

365
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: Who started talking about it.

366
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it was a conversation. It was more

367
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: of a sort of passing acknowledgment of like, you know,

368
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 3: tipping our heads to each other with a small comment

369
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, we've been in this together. Like if

370
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: I was having a hard time communicating with a boyfriend.

371
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: Say, and you will tell him about it.

372
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 3: Well, he would know that it was happening because he

373
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 3: was there. So no, I wouldn't necessarily have those kinds

374
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 3: of conversations with him. We would have some kind of joke,

375
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, well we weren't really taught to be

376
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 3: human beings as children.

377
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 4: So was the idea that he felt that way too.

378
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 3: So his experience of his childhood is not good. I

379
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: can't speak to his to what his experience was I mean,

380
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: we have not had these conversations. I think my brother

381
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 3: is a wounded individual, not in the same way, but

382
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: in a very deep way, in the way that I

383
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: am a wounded individual in a very deep way.

384
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: And I think that when you acknowledged we were in

385
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: this together, you were acknowledging yeah, we were both wounded

386
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 2: here and in different ways, but you actually weren't in

387
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: it together at all, because he was the baby that

388
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 2: your parents wanted and you were the one they didn't.

389
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 2: He was the one that was fused with your mom.

390
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: He was the one whose choices were prioritized, and you

391
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: were the one that felt excluded and left out and

392
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: not part of the family. And he didn't like you either,

393
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: you said. And so you were actually very much not

394
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: in it together. And so I'm curious when you say, oh,

395
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 2: we were in it together, did you not feel that?

396
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: But actually we weren't.

397
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: We were raised in the same home, we were raised

398
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: by the same people.

399
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: Just because you were raised in the same environment doesn't

400
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 4: mean that you you are experiencing the environment in the

401
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 4: same way. And so that's why siblings can have vastly

402
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: different experiences growing up in the very same household and

403
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 4: so it sounds like you have this idea that, well,

404
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 4: we both grew up in the same environment, so therefore

405
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 4: we have the same kinds of wounds. I think you

406
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: have very different experiences of growing up in the same household,

407
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 4: like many siblings do.

408
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't doubt that we had a vastly different

409
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 3: experience of the world. I know that's true.

410
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: You said that you got close as you were teenagers

411
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: and young adults. You were close, but only to a

412
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: point because you couldn't really share with him what your

413
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: feelings were about your childhood, that he was part of

414
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: that ecosystem that rejected you or dismissed you. You weren't

415
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: able to share that with him at that time, and

416
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: so the closeness was there comparatively, probably felt quite strong.

417
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: But I'm thinking also of the way when you started

418
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: having friends, it felt like, oh, I finally have these friends,

419
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: except they weren't friends you could share emotional pain with.

420
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: Much like when you got close with your brother as

421
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: a teenager and a young adult. It was despite the

422
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 2: fact that you couldn't really share with him any emotionally

423
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: painful things. The closest that came to that is that

424
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: when he would see you have an issue with the boyfriend,

425
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: that'd be this kind of nod of recognition of yeah,

426
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: wel we came from that house, and so of course

427
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: we're going to have issues. And I'm wondering whether with

428
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: your brother was he able to share with you his

429
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: hurts from childhood in an overt, clear way rather than

430
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 2: just that wink of recognition between two siblings have been

431
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: through it.

432
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: No, he never shared those things with me. He spaid

433
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: ten years in therapy his twenties, you know, mid twenties

434
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: to mid thirties and therapy, so he, at a much

435
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 3: younger age than me, found what I can assume to

436
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: be a situation where he could have those conversations with someone,

437
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 3: but they weren't with me.

438
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 4: But he revealed to you at the time that he

439
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 4: was going to therapy, And did you think I might

440
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: want to do that?

441
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 3: I did not at that time.

442
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: No.

443
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 3: Well, I think that I had a very hard shell.

444
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: It didn't allow me to see that communicating these things

445
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: could be helpful.

446
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: What was the impetus for you in your mid thirties

447
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: for deciding to go to therapy.

448
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: I had come out of a relationship with a man,

449
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: and that relationship ended, and it was very painful, and

450
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: I came to the realization that if I was going

451
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: to have a relationship with any man in the future

452
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: and I wanted it to work, that I was going

453
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: to need to change.

454
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 4: What were you noticing that was going on in this

455
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 4: relationship that made it difficult for you to be in it?

456
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: That I had very big and very painful feelings that

457
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: I had no way to communicate with this person.

458
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 4: About, meaning you didn't communicate them, or when you did,

459
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: it came out in a way that made it hard

460
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 4: for him to be there for you.

461
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: I didn't communicate them with him. I wasn't able to.

462
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: I literally could not speak in those situations.

463
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: And so when did that start to change? When were

464
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: you able to start talking about your feelings in a

465
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: vulnerable way and to whom well?

466
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: I started seeing a therapist probably within a month after

467
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: that relationship ended, and that that person taught me that

468
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: if someone is open to and available for that kind

469
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: of communication, that it is possible to sit and look

470
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: at someone in the face and talk to them about

471
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: your biguest, most painful feeling. I mean, I met my

472
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: partner probably while I was still going through this therapy

473
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 3: I was thirty four years old, and I was like, oh, yeah,

474
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: never had a relationship with someone that I trust, so

475
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: now I have one. I'm only laughing because it just

476
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: sounds ridiculous to me.

477
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: Given everything that you're describing, it would be practically shocking

478
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: if you were able to trust someone.

479
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: I think it's ridiculous. It seems to me. I always

480
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: intellectually understood what trust was, but I never had an

481
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: experience of it.

482
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, Zoe, because it sounds a little bit

483
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: like you've internalized some of what you were getting as

484
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: a child in which your feelings were being dismissed and invalidated,

485
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: that you're still doing that to yourself, and just pointing

486
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: that out, because when you grow up with so much

487
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 2: blanket and validation, it's difficult not to internalize some bit

488
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: and then it seeps out sometimes and you find yourself

489
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: saying something, admitting to a feeling that is so natural

490
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: given the circumstance, but looking at it and going like, oh,

491
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: but that's silly, and it's very much not silly. Do

492
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: you notice that you do that, that you might still

493
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: be invalidating your feelings.

494
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: Sometimes I do that, certainly from time to time, I

495
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: would say that I make a choice to perhaps not

496
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: connect to that pain in some moments.

497
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: What guys talking about is partly being able to acknowledge

498
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 4: the pain, But the other part is what he was

499
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: saying about self compassion. When you're talking about your experiences

500
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 4: and you judge yourself like it took me this long

501
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 4: before I could do this. Well, of course, because of

502
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: what you experienced, and that's what happened in your family.

503
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: You'd say I'm feeling this and they would say, well, no,

504
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: you're not, that's not your experience, or that shouldn't be

505
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: your experience. You kind of do that to yourself absolutely.

506
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 4: And it sounds like when you went to therapy, it

507
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: was the first time that you were able to sit

508
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: with someone and not have them dismiss or discount what

509
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 4: your experience was. And I think it's not a coincidence

510
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 4: that you met this person right as you started going

511
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 4: to therapy, and here was this person who was able

512
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 4: to be with you in a way that I think

513
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 4: you longed for for a very long time. And so

514
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about that relationship.

515
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been seven years since we met. My relationship

516
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: with him started out this sort of beautiful way in

517
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: a way that I had never seen a relationship happen,

518
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 3: and that was very meaningful for me. I wasn't able

519
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: to see the therapist continuously, and so at some point

520
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 3: I had to say, this has been an incredibly powerful

521
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 3: time for me, but I can't see you any longer

522
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,239
Speaker 3: those for financial reasons, so I stopped seeing her. So,

523
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: you know, situations would arise in my relationship with Mark

524
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: that may be unhappy, and I would do whatever form

525
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: of communicating I could that I thought would sort of

526
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 3: pave the way for open and honest dialogue. Oftentimes, my

527
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: communication tactics didn't work and we ended up not communicating

528
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: clearly about things that made me unhappy in the relationship.

529
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 4: Is the reason that you and Mark haven't gone to

530
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 4: therapy a financial reason?

531
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

532
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,239
Speaker 4: The first thing that came to mind when you were

533
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 4: saying that your brother went to therapy for about ten

534
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 4: years starting in his twenties, was this issue of finances.

535
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 4: I wondered if there was some envy that you had

536
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 4: of his ability to go and work through some of

537
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 4: this stuff from childhood in a way that maybe you

538
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 4: didn't have access to.

539
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was worried about money in having children.

540
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: I want to get to your brother who said he

541
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: became an engineer, I think you said, and started making money.

542
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: And that's what you identified is creating a bit of

543
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: a witch between you. Tell us how that happened.

544
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: When Derek met Carol, the primary reason that he was

545
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: so attracted to her is that she's extremely well adjusted.

546
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 3: She's very happy, she knows how to communicate her wants

547
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 3: and her needs. She gets what she wants from her life.

548
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 3: She's very satisfied, and that was the primary reason that

549
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: Derek wanted to marry her. So my brother and I

550
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: and his wife, we have had times where we spend

551
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: time together and we're great friends. What I have found

552
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: over the last few years is that I don't have

553
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: any ability to talk with them about things that are

554
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 3: going on in my life that aren't positive. So it's

555
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: like I am in that same dynamic again where I

556
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: have these fair weather friends who I really like, I

557
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 3: really love them, but I can't be honest with them

558
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: about my real experience in the world.

559
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: Necessarily, what makes you think that you can't talk to

560
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 4: them about what's really going on in your life.

561
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: Well, with Carol, she doesn't react empathetically. When I was

562
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: in my last pregnancy, I was very sick and I

563
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: was very socially isolated, and every now and then she

564
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: would text me and she would say, oh, how are

565
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: you And I would say, oh my god, I am

566
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 3: doing terribly. This is awful. I can't believe how bad

567
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: it is right now. And she would reply to my

568
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 3: texts bummer.

569
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: Not like, hey, can I bring you something? Do you

570
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 4: need help? Can I keep you company?

571
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: Nothing like that. She never once brought me anything or

572
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 3: came to my house or offered to help with my child.

573
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: I had a four year old child. She never once

574
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 3: offered to watch my kid for five minutes.

575
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 4: What about your brother when you were pregnant and if

576
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 4: you had said to him, hey, I'm really struggling, was

577
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 4: he more empathetic.

578
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I don't remember really even communicating with

579
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: him during my pregnancy.

580
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 4: And yet you were so close. Weren't you running a

581
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 4: business together.

582
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: We stopped running our business together right before he had

583
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 3: his first child, so there were many years where we

584
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: weren't necessarily seeing each other very often, we weren't talking.

585
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: Have you had an experience of sharing something painful with

586
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: your brother, in which he responded poorly or without empathy.

587
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely. I gave birth to my son in April

588
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 3: of last year, and when he turned a year old,

589
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 3: I said to my brother a number of times, you know,

590
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 3: it's been really challenging for me. We've had twelve months

591
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: of three hundred and sixty five days, twenty four hours

592
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: a day of caring for this infant, and we haven't

593
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: had a single moment during that time for someone else

594
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 3: to watch him. And twice in a row my brother responded, Oh,

595
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: you're gonna value this time. This is a really special

596
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: time for you, guys. It's really going to be meaningful someday.

597
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: Much like you got growing up.

598
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's how I feel my brother treats me nowadays.

599
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 2: Was there a time where you were able to share

600
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: painful moments or struggles where he would respond with more

601
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: empathy and compassion.

602
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: Definitely when we were working together. If I had something

603
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: happen with a friend that made me upset, I was

604
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: able to talk with him about that and he was

605
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 3: able to say, I understand why you're upset at this moment.

606
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: What was that like for you to hear that, To

607
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: finally hear someone in your family say yeah, I understand

608
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: that you're feeling that way. It makes sense to me.

609
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 3: Fall pleasures, you know, yeah, I could take that moment

610
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: as this is a genuine experience in life.

611
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: In your letter, you indicated you thought that what has

612
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: caused some of the emotional drifting between you is the

613
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: financial disparity or the change in his financial circumstance. Tell

614
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: us why you think that is what was under allowing

615
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: some of this change.

616
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: What I see as what happened was when I had

617
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 3: my first child. Once that child went to childcare, we

618
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 3: were literally spending all of the money that we made

619
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 3: every month on living, child care and our lives. Literally

620
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 3: every dollar that we brought in went out to pay

621
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: for things. And so I think there was a time

622
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: period where if we were hanging out, you know, I

623
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 3: would say something like, yeah, we can't afford that kind

624
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: of a thing. And maybe some time went on like

625
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: that before I realized that Derek and Carroll, or Carol specifically,

626
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: was really annoyed. She was really annoyed that I would

627
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 3: talk about money like that in that way.

628
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 4: In other words, they would say, hey, we went on

629
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 4: this vacation, or we bought such and.

630
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: Such, We would say, Oh, have you guys tried this

631
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 3: new restaurant. It's really you know, everybody's talking about and

632
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: it's really great. We went and it was really awesome,

633
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 3: and I would say, yeah, you know, we're not eating

634
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: at restaurants right now. We don't have the money. When

635
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 3: I realized that she was displeased with those kinds of comments,

636
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 3: it made me want to hang out with her less.

637
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: And it also made me hyper aware of the fact that, Okay,

638
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to make an effort to not say those

639
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 3: kinds of things.

640
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: What about how your brother would react.

641
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: I don't know that he was annoyed by it, but

642
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: what I noticed around that same time was that they

643
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 3: were often communicating about how they were spending so much money.

644
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 3: So the conversation would be, oh, yeah, we just went

645
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 3: to Hawaii for five weeks. It made me feel like,

646
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 3: are we not allowed to be honest with each other

647
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 3: in this relationship? I feel like if I communicate openly

648
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: about the things that I'm struggling with in life, that

649
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: those conversations are shot down, And you know, it's come

650
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: to the point where these people are acting like annoyed

651
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: with me.

652
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 4: That sounds so familiar that when you would bring up

653
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 4: something that made other people uncomfortable as a child, they

654
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 4: would get annoyed with you. Yeah, And the other commonality

655
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 4: is that theme of exclusion that they are able to

656
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,479
Speaker 4: live in this way. While you said twenty four to seven,

657
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 4: you're thinking about money and what you don't have and

658
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 4: your brother does have it, And I think that that

659
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 4: somehow brings up that very old feeling of he's in

660
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 4: and I'm out.

661
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. They have a lot of child's care, They have

662
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 3: a lot of family close by who takes care of

663
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 3: their children for them. They have a lot of freedom,

664
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 3: they have a lot of time to spend, they have

665
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 3: a lot of money. They just they have all these

666
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: things and we don't have those things.

667
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 4: So are we talking about envy because I imagine when you

668
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 4: were young you felt very envious of your brother's position

669
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 4: in the family and what he was getting, even if

670
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: it had its problems.

671
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 3: It certainly is envy. I mean envy in a way

672
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 3: that's like, yeah, I wish I had those things too.

673
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.

674
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 3: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

675
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: And that's the third part that's familiar is that when

676
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: you feel that, what you do is you have a

677
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: hard time addressing it and talking about it directly and

678
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: saying to your brother, can we please talk about the

679
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 2: tensions that happened between us when we talk about finances,

680
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: and you in caase what you have in my guess

681
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: what I don't. That's the other pattern that continues that

682
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 2: your response to that is to kind of close up

683
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: and withdraw.

684
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: Perhaps, Yeah, it's definitely what I'm doing is withdrawing from

685
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 3: the situation.

686
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: What would you like to see happen if you were

687
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: able to talk to him? Meaning, what would you like

688
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: to see go differently? Maybe it's more about wanting your

689
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: brother to recognize that maybe this is hard for you.

690
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think certainly them recognizing that my life has

691
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 3: become much more difficult over the years while their lives

692
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: has become much easier. So I would like to see them, yeah,

693
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 3: be able to accept.

694
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 4: That, accept that or acknowledge it.

695
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, to acknowledge the fact that my life is much

696
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: more difficult now than it was before would be nice,

697
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: and to give some room in the relationship for the

698
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 3: fact that everything is not perfect in my life, and perhaps.

699
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: To have some sensitivity to that that maybe you're not

700
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: the best audience for how fabulous Hawaii was, or you

701
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: must try the snee restaurant. Everyone's raving about it when

702
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: you're like, we're not trying with duns right now. To

703
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: have more sensitivity.

704
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 3: To have some sensitivity would be great. Yeah.

705
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 4: And the other part of it that I think is

706
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 4: important is less about them and more about you, which

707
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 4: is you're not the child who's at the mercy of

708
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 4: what people in the family are deciding in terms of

709
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 4: who's in and who's out, and who gets something and

710
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 4: who doesn't get something, and who gets to go to

711
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: the school they want, and who doesn't get to go

712
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 4: to the school that they want. And I wonder if

713
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 4: you've internalized some of that messaging that you don't get

714
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 4: to have and so you don't try to have. In

715
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 4: other words, you kind of accept, well, my relationship isn't

716
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 4: where I want it to be, but oh well, and

717
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 4: we're really struggling with money, but oh well, as opposed

718
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 4: to really opening up your imagination to what might I

719
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 4: be able to do now that nobody's holding me back

720
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 4: to have the kind of relationship that I want to have.

721
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 4: What might need to happen there, or what might we

722
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 4: as a couple do to change our financial situation so

723
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 4: that we can have some of the things that maybe

724
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 4: we want, so that you're not always pressed up against

725
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 4: the glass saying, Oh, I'm stuck in here and my

726
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 4: brother has all these things that I want.

727
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 3: I appreciate you saying that it's definitely some of those

728
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 3: things are things that I am addressing, and some of

729
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 3: those things are things that I had thought to address.

730
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 4: We have this saying follow your envy. It tells you

731
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 4: what you want. And sometimes we don't like to acknowledge

732
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 4: our envy because we feel like it makes us small

733
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 4: or petty, but actually it helps us to get in

734
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 4: touch with our desires. It helps us to say I

735
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 4: want that. So when you were young and you wanted

736
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 4: what your brother had in some way, even though it

737
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 4: was dysfunctional in a different way, there was some elements

738
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 4: of it that you wanted.

739
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, my brother seemed to have a healthy relationship with

740
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: my mother.

741
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 4: What he had was her love in a way that

742
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 4: was different from her love for you.

743
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: And now he.

744
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 4: Has somebody that he's married to who seems to have

745
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 4: had so much trauma growing up, And I think that

746
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 4: on the one hand, you feel like that makes it

747
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 4: hard for her to connect with you or you to

748
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 4: connect with her. But on the other hand, I think

749
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 4: there might be some envy there that she's had it easier,

750
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: and that might make you put up some walls where

751
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 4: maybe there could be more of a relationship there it

752
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 4: feels better. And then you have your brother having more

753
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 4: help with the kids and more financial freedom, and maybe

754
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 4: there's a way that you could have a better relationship

755
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 4: and more financial freedom.

756
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we think that there are ways perhaps

757
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 2: that you can shape off still some more of the

758
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 2: old habits and perspectives which were very paralyzing. And if

759
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 2: you're very helpless and realize that you can take certain

760
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: actions and speak up about certain things now in ways

761
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: that you truly agree in your childhood and even an

762
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: YOURNDI adults.

763
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: So, Zoe, we have some advice for you, and it's

764
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: in a few parts. The first part is that we

765
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: would like you to have a conversation with your brother

766
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 1: in which you say to him, I feel this tension

767
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: between us now as adults, this distance that's growing between us,

768
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: and I think part of it has to do with

769
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: the fact that your life looks different from my life financially,

770
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: and I think that that's bringing up some old feelings

771
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: in me around exclusion and other experiences that I had

772
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: growing up. And I would love to be able to

773
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: talk with you because I think that it will help

774
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: me to feel closer to you, and it will will

775
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: help with some of this tension and distance that's going

776
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: on between us now, and then to really be able

777
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: to talk with him about what it was like when

778
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: you found out from your mom that they didn't want

779
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: a second child, and what it was like to see

780
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: that closeness that he had with your mom and at

781
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: the same time feeling like, but I also want a

782
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: relationship with my brother, and even as an adult, really

783
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: wanting a relationship with him, and how a lot of.

784
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 4: That is coming up again because you're seeing this difference

785
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 4: and it sort of magnified something that you feel like

786
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 4: would maybe not feel so big if you could talk

787
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 4: about some of these things that you've never talked about,

788
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 4: because he's really the only other person that was there.

789
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 3: I like that idea.

790
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 2: The second part of that conversation with there, it is

791
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: to say and I do want to address to find

792
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: outential difference between us because right now. I think it's

793
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: a point of tension that you guys talk about what

794
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 2: you do and we talk about what we can't do

795
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: as a response. But I think there's room for both.

796
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: I think there's room for us to be excited for

797
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 2: you about the things that you can do, about your

798
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 2: trip to Hawaii and the great new restaurant you tried,

799
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 2: and there's room at the same time for you guys

800
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: to be compassionate toward us and sympathetic that we're not

801
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: in that place where we can do those things. The

802
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: two can exist together, and I think we've kind of

803
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: been dancing around it and feeling tense about how do

804
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: you talk about your lives without upsetting us and how

805
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 2: do we talk about hours without upsetting you? But there's

806
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: room for both, and perhaps we can agree that we

807
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 2: can be supportive and excited for you, and that you

808
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: guys can be sympathetic to us, that those things can

809
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: happen at the same time.

810
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 4: Maybe if there was a little bit more acknowledgement, because

811
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 4: when we were growing up, there was not a lot

812
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 4: of acknowledgment around my pain, that if there's a little

813
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 4: bit more acknowledgment that we are in different situations it

814
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 4: would free me up to truly be excited and happy

815
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 4: for you.

816
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 2: And the last part is we would like you and

817
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: your husband to find a low fee clinic, which is

818
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: much easier to do these days because it doesn't have

819
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 2: to be something that's geographically possible because of Zoom. But

820
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: there are in many teaching institutions, universities, all kinds of

821
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 2: low fee clinics, and you would like you to find

822
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 2: one that does couple's therapy, and if your husband would agree,

823
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 2: because we think you do need a facilitator to help

824
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: you talk and for you to feel safe, because we

825
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 2: think that's quite important that you can talk together, not

826
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: just about the relationship, but what changes can you make

827
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: in your lives to gain a little bit more financial

828
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: breathing room than you have at the moment.

829
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was this sense as a child, because it

830
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 4: was true that you were trapped by those circumstances. You

831
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 4: might feel more comfortable in the old story, but we

832
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 4: want to help you to feel more comfortable moving into

833
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 4: this newer.

834
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 2: Place wonderful and so we look forward to hearing how

835
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 2: that goes.

836
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: So this was one of those sessions where it seemed

837
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: like the issue was about money and it is, but

838
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: there was so much from the past to unpack as well,

839
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: and we gave her a lot to do in terms

840
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: of opening up those conversations, and that might be a

841
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: little hard for her to do.

842
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: And we always find that money is such an uncomfortable

843
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: topic for people to address, and so I think, both

844
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 2: for her and maybe for her brother, that might be

845
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: difficult to actually talk about. But I do hope that

846
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: they at least talk about the relationship, or at least

847
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: start to communicate in some deeper way, because I think

848
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: that would be very useful for her.

849
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when you start

850
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: looking at opening up a conversation with somebody close to

851
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: you is you might start looking at the other relationships

852
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: around you, like we did with her husband, And I

853
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: really hope that she follows through and is able to

854
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: open up a conversation with her husband so that she

855
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: can focus on that relationship as well. The issue with

856
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: her brother doesn't supersede this really important work that it

857
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 1: seems like she has to do in her marriage.

858
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 2: So it'll be interesting to see if once she has

859
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 2: one of those conversations, whether that gives her confidence to

860
00:53:54,520 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: be able to have the other you're listening to deo

861
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 2: therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break.

862
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: So we heard that from Zoe, and we asked her

863
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 1: to have two difficult conversations, the first with her brother

864
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: and the second with her husband. So let's hear how

865
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: they went.

866
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 6: So I didn't make the call right away because I

867
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 6: was so anxious.

868
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 5: I did allow some time to pass, which allowed me

869
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 5: to really process my own experience.

870
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: Which was good.

871
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 6: So when I talk to him, we had, you know,

872
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 6: our standard chat at first, which has really made up

873
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 6: all of the time that we have spent together. I

874
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 6: would say over the last probably two years, has been

875
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 6: just standard chat small talk, which I feel like small

876
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 6: talk just makes me feel small all But anyway, our

877
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 6: conversation was able to go to a very open and

878
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 6: honest and vulnerable place, which was really wonderful. We talked

879
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 6: for about two hours and I was able to speak

880
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 6: with my brother about my own experience of childhood, and

881
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 6: he definitely had a few moments where he was like, yeah,

882
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:40,959
Speaker 6: you were ridiculously emotional, which could not make me feel good.

883
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 6: But I was able to be clear with him and

884
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 6: let him know, yeah, I'm an emotional person like to me,

885
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 6: my superpower is having very strong emotions about things. So

886
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 6: we were able to talk about or experienceeriences in childhood,

887
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 6: and he tried to make it clear to me that

888
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 6: he was equally unhappy about our childhood as I was.

889
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 6: After I had the conversation, I felt a huge load

890
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 6: off of my shoulders. I mean, I realized that my

891
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 6: brother I was just doing the best that he can

892
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 6: and honestly, to hear him talk about how difficult.

893
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: Life is for him.

894
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 7: You know, he still very deeply carries the scars of

895
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 7: his childhood and they really affect his day to day life.

896
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 7: It made me happy that he was able to be

897
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 7: honest with me. I feel like, for so long he

898
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 7: puts on this smiling, happy face every time I see him,

899
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 7: and I just.

900
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 5: Feel like it's I feel like it's bony.

901
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 3: I feel like it's fake.

902
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 5: And so to have him be real with me and

903
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 5: tell him what his real experience of life is, that

904
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 5: felt really good.

905
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 3: With my partner.

906
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 5: You know, it's really the first time that we sat

907
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 5: down and had lunch together, probably was the day after

908
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 5: we've had this conversation in the past where I say,

909
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 5: you know, I really think that we need to have

910
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 5: professional help, and we've both agreed that it's a good

911
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 5: idea and that we should do it, but we haven't

912
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 5: done it. So there's a lot of fear involved with

913
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 5: just sort facing this issue. But I had a conversation

914
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 5: with him and went, well, you know, he he's open

915
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 5: to the idea.

916
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 3: I perhaps even saw a flicker of excitement over the prospect.

917
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 3: There's a little bit of a sort of a sunny possibility,

918
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 3: like we could have a better life. So yeah, I

919
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 3: am happy that we.

920
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: Are doing this thing right now.

921
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 3: So it feels good to be like we're both on

922
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 3: the same pie.

923
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 5: There is a possibility of something good happening.

924
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 3: It's different in our lives.

925
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 2: So when Zoe says that small talk makes her feel small,

926
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: it's because she is yearning to feel that connection. And

927
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 2: connection does not happen with small talk. It happens with

928
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: meaningful conversation, with actually talking about the relationship between you.

929
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: And I'm glad she's uncomfortable with small talk, and I'm

930
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 2: glad that she feels like she doesn't want that anymore

931
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: with her brother, because she really does need to connect

932
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,479
Speaker 2: with him, And it sounds like they took a good

933
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: first step in that direction.

934
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad that she stood her ground and

935
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: was able to say to her brother, feelings are my superpower.

936
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: The fact that I can feel things is a strength

937
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: of mind, and to reframe that and to use that

938
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: as a starting point for these conversations. They didn't get

939
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: to the money part of the conversation, and I think

940
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: that's okay, because right now, what was important was they

941
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: started to acknowledge the reality of their childhoods. I think

942
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: will give them some common ground from which to have

943
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: these other conversations that bring them up to the present.

944
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 2: And it was so encouraging to hear that when she

945
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 2: spoke to her husband about going to therapy, she saw

946
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 2: that spark of excitement in him, because it's so important

947
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: that he be on board with the work she has

948
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: to do. When somebody's been through a lot of trauma,

949
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot of healing they need to do, and

950
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: it's wonderful that she can work on that with somebody

951
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 2: safe like her husband, who knows her, who loves her.

952
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: That will make that work easier for her to do.

953
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 2: And at the same time, she found her voice with

954
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: her brother as well. And I think that finding your

955
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 2: voice and then starting to use your voice is always

956
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: the first step when you're trying to heal.

957
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 1: Next week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost

958
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on

959
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: with a new partner.

960
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: It's really hard for me to.

961
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 8: Open up to him because every time in the past

962
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 8: that I've opened up about my feelings, it's either ben

963
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 8: met with rejection or met with OCD. So it's really

964
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 8: hard for me to trust that I can have a

965
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 8: safe person to open up to.

966
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,479
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

967
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

968
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

969
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

970
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

971
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

972
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

973
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

974
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

975
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: are Doric Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

976
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

977
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

978
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.