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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist's Advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 3: a woman's resentment of her financially successful brother threatens to

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Speaker 3: tear apart their relationship.

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Speaker 4: They have a lot of freedom, they have a lot

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Speaker 4: of time to spend, they have a lot of money.

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Speaker 4: They just they have all these things and we don't

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Speaker 4: have those things. Yeah, I wish I had those things too.

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Speaker 4: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.

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Speaker 4: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partworn

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Speaker 1: and full, and we may edit it for length and clarity.

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Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed

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Speaker 1: for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy, Hey Lourie.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really excited for this week's letter because I

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Speaker 1: hear it has something to do with siblings and money.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it does, and money is one of those topics.

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Speaker 3: It's money and sex that people have a very hot

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Speaker 3: time talking about, so I'm glad we have the opportunity here.

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Speaker 3: Here's the letter, Dear Therapists. My only brother and I

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Speaker 3: have been close at times in our lives. We have

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Speaker 3: kids the same age who absolutely love to play together.

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Speaker 3: Since having children, time has been in short supply, and

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Speaker 3: we don't connect very often. We spend holidays together and

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Speaker 3: hang out in other ways, maybe three or four times

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Speaker 3: a year. My brother became a software engineer about five

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Speaker 3: years ago and now makes loads of money. We, on

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Speaker 3: the other hand, are poorer than we've ever been because

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Speaker 3: we have two children. I feel like we have less

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Speaker 3: and less in common as this difference between us progresses

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Speaker 3: and our relationship is struggling to stay together. Aside from

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Speaker 3: our kids being friends, my brother's family seems to act

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Speaker 3: like everything is perfect, and we want to be close

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Speaker 3: with other families that are struggling with the same issue

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Speaker 3: we are. I'd like to have a relationship with my brother,

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Speaker 3: but I need some guidance and how to navigate this

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Speaker 3: difference so we don't grow further apart.

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Speaker 5: Sincerely, Zoe brings up so many feelings in people, and

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Speaker 5: they feel like they shouldn't talk about it because they

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Speaker 5: feel like it's taboo or they shouldn't have these feelings,

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Speaker 5: And yet it's all around us.

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Speaker 1: We can't ignore it, and when it happens to somebody

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Speaker 1: close to you, like a good friend or a sibling,

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Speaker 1: it becomes kind of like the elephant in the room.

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Speaker 3: That's absolutely right. Some people feel that well, when somebody

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Speaker 3: makes money that they didn't have before, it's going to

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Speaker 3: change them. But really often what it changes are the

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Speaker 3: feelings that person has. Jealousy comes up and becomes up,

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Speaker 3: Resentment can come up, and those things are not dealt with,

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Speaker 3: it can really cause a rupture in the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And with siblings, because there's so much history in their relationship,

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Speaker 1: sometimes some of those old wounds start coming up in

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Speaker 1: the form of this question around the money. So let's

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Speaker 1: go talk to her and learn more about what's going

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Speaker 1: on between them.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy

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Speaker 3: Wench and this is Deo Therapist.

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Speaker 4: So Hi Zoe, Hello Laurie, Welcome to the show. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Could you tell us a little bit about the relationship

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Speaker 3: with your brother before this financial change, the history of it.

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Speaker 4: Sure, my brother is twenty months older than I am,

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Speaker 4: and I am forty years old now. Around the end

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Speaker 4: of high school, we became very close in our relationship.

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Speaker 4: I would say that our level of intimacy at that

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Speaker 4: time was similar to one of my closest friends, you know.

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Speaker 4: Through college. We lived together for a year or two,

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Speaker 4: maybe even three years. We owned a house together in

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Speaker 4: our twenties, we ran a bus business together in our thirties.

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Speaker 4: It was his business. When he closed down his business,

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Speaker 4: he became a software engineer. And then that was five

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Speaker 4: years ago.

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Speaker 1: When you say that you got close in high school,

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Speaker 1: What was your relationship like when you were younger children?

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Speaker 4: There was trauma in the home as children, and we

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Speaker 4: were divided in that trauma.

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Speaker 1: What was going on in your family that created this

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Speaker 1: division between the two of you.

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Speaker 4: So when I was born, my brother was twenty months old.

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Speaker 4: My father had a lot of issues, and after I

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Speaker 4: was born, my mother decided she didn't want to live

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Speaker 4: with him any longer. She was afraid for her life.

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Speaker 4: My father came and took my brother from her home

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Speaker 4: and had him I think close to a year, and

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Speaker 4: my mother, I can only imagine what her experience was

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Speaker 4: like during that year. So that was the initial trauma.

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Speaker 4: My brother came back, we lived in a completely different

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Speaker 4: part of the country for the rest of our lives,

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Speaker 4: essentially never seeing that man again. Obviously in safety. My

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Speaker 4: mother had a very close relationship with my brother, and

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Speaker 4: my mother did not have a very close relationship with me,

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Speaker 4: and I was the outsider as a child.

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Speaker 1: What did that look like their closeness and you being

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Speaker 1: an outsider.

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Speaker 4: It looked like my family didn't really care that much

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Speaker 4: about me.

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Speaker 1: What was actually happening between your mom and your brother

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Speaker 1: that made you feel that way?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean my mom and my brother were best friends,

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Speaker 4: so they had an intimacy amongst themselves that I didn't

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Speaker 4: have with her or with him. Frankly, he did not

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Speaker 4: like me as a child. I was in his way.

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Speaker 4: When I got to be an older child. We came

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Speaker 4: to a year where we were going to go to

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Speaker 4: private school, and I wanted to go to one particular

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Speaker 4: private school, and I applied and I was so proud

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Speaker 4: of myself. I got accepted into this prestigious private school,

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Speaker 4: and my parents were happy about the idea. But then

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Speaker 4: they realized that my brother decided to go to a

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Speaker 4: different private school and that they were going to have

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Speaker 4: to drive him to that school, So they weren't going

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Speaker 4: to be able to drive me to the school that

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Speaker 4: I wanted to go to, So I had to go

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Speaker 4: to the school that he wanted to go to.

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Speaker 3: When did your mom remarry?

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Speaker 4: My mother remarried around I was about eight years old.

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Speaker 3: And what was that like for you? When this stepfather

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Speaker 3: came into the picture. How did that impact the dynamics

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Speaker 3: between your mom and your brother, your mom and you.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think that it was quite equalizing. This

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Speaker 4: idea that, you know, the people who were close to

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Speaker 4: me and my home really didn't like me sort of

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Speaker 4: calmed down a little bit. My mother has told me

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Speaker 4: that once he came into the picture, she thought everything

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Speaker 4: was fine.

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Speaker 1: You used the worst that your family didn't like you.

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Speaker 1: Where did you get the impression that your family didn't

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Speaker 1: like you.

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Speaker 4: My personality is very emotional, and my mother she did

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Speaker 4: not consider her emotions to be a part of her

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Speaker 4: life really, and so so I was raised with this

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Speaker 4: idea that you know, who I am and how I

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Speaker 4: functioned in the world is not okay. You need to

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Speaker 4: turn that off.

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Speaker 1: Was that told you explicitly, like don't be so sensitive

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Speaker 1: or you're too emotional? Or was it implied somehow?

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Speaker 4: It was implied in that I was not responded to

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Speaker 4: in any way if I were showing emotion.

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Speaker 3: Could you give us an example of something that happened

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Speaker 3: that you had an emotional response to that got ignorant.

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Speaker 4: This happened from the time that I was born. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm talking about being three years old and

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Speaker 4: understanding that my emotional reaction to things is not gonna matter.

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Speaker 4: So I hid my emotions from my family my entire life.

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Speaker 3: Did you have close friends during those childhood years?

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Speaker 4: I would say I had one or two close friends.

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Speaker 3: And what was that like for you? Because your impression

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Speaker 3: was my brother didn't like me, my mom didn't like me.

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Speaker 3: Stepdad comes in, so that even stinks out a bit,

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Speaker 3: but you felt by yourself like there was no one

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Speaker 3: there to support you, to understand you, to be able

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Speaker 3: to respond to your emotions or your needs. What was

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Speaker 3: it like when you finally started making some close friends

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Speaker 3: and had someone who seemed to really care about you.

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Speaker 4: I would say that's about sixth grade. It was really

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Speaker 4: a life changer for me. You know. I feel like

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Speaker 4: I really became a person at that time. I was

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Speaker 4: able to share my experience and be lighthearted and yeah,

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Speaker 4: like really have the sort of experience of like, oh,

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Speaker 4: oh yeah, this is who I am. This isn't how

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Speaker 4: I act with my family. I don't act like who

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Speaker 4: I really am with them.

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Speaker 1: What was different about how you acted around your friends

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't do in your family comfortably?

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Speaker 4: Well? Express myself openly, speak openly.

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Speaker 1: And what were the kinds of things that you shared

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Speaker 1: with them?

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Speaker 4: Simple things like oh, I really like this book that

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Speaker 4: I'm writing, or let's watch these particular television shows because

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Speaker 4: we like them.

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Speaker 1: Were you ever able to share some of your feelings

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Speaker 1: with them, like I have a crush on this person,

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Speaker 1: or I'm really sad when I'm home with my family

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Speaker 1: because I feel like an outsider.

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Speaker 4: I did not share feelings about my family with other people.

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Speaker 4: I did not do that until I was much older.

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Speaker 1: What do you think might have happened if you had

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Speaker 1: shared it? You say you didn't have a need, and

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Speaker 1: yet you felt so isolated in your family, and I

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Speaker 1: imagine hiding this big part of your life felt isolating too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, any time I expressed something like that within my family,

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Speaker 4: I was given the message that that's not right. You're

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Speaker 4: absolutely wrong. You are not treated that way. That's not

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Speaker 4: how your life is. So I'm not sure why you're

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Speaker 4: having those emotions.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like they denied your reality, but your

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Speaker 1: friends didn't, And so I'm wondering what held you back

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Speaker 1: from talking about the reality of your home life with

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Speaker 1: your friends.

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Speaker 4: You know, I never had the experience in my life

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Speaker 4: of expressing some kind of uncomfortable feeling and having that

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Speaker 4: communication help me or make me feel better.

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Speaker 3: You're describing your friends as people with whom you had

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Speaker 3: the freedom to talk about your experience and your feelings

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Speaker 3: as long as those were positive, and I'm not hearing

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Speaker 3: that you were able to share with them anything that

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Speaker 3: was actually more challenging or painful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I don't have much of any experience doing that

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Speaker 4: kind of work until I was much older and in therapy.

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Speaker 4: How old, probably close to thirty five, right.

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Speaker 3: You progressed from not being able to feel you can

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Speaker 3: share anything about what you feel in your family to

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Speaker 3: at least being able to share the good stuff with friends.

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Speaker 3: But then you spent many, many years really feeling that

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Speaker 3: if something is painful, there is no one with whom

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Speaker 3: I can talk about it, There is no one with

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Speaker 3: whom I can share it.

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Speaker 4: I spent my life that way.

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Speaker 1: What comes to mind is that when you were having

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Speaker 1: some difficulty coming up with examples of what made you

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Speaker 1: feel that way, that because you never got to talk

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Speaker 1: to anybody about it, that it's just one big blur

253
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Speaker 1: to you, that there was never any processing going on

254
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Speaker 1: at the time of any of these incidents, the one

255
00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:40,879
Speaker 1: thing that sticks with you is the school situation. But

256
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Speaker 1: there must have been so many of them to make

257
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Speaker 1: you feel somewhere deep inside that from a very very

258
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Speaker 1: young age you felt excluded, like an outsider, alone in pain,

259
00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:03,199
Speaker 1: but with nobody to go to, your reality being denied

260
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Speaker 1: in so many different ways. And I'm thinking of later

261
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Speaker 1: when you were verbal and your mother would say, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not really what's happening in this house, or you

263
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:14,479
Speaker 1: don't really feel that way when you're a baby, what

264
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:18,599
Speaker 1: you do to communicate some kind of discomfort as you cry?

265
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Speaker 1: And we don't have memories of this that are very articulate,

266
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Speaker 1: but we have sense memories of where we responded to

267
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Speaker 1: when we cried, How were we responded to, where we

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Speaker 1: responded to in a perfunctory way, like someone did come

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Speaker 1: and change our diaper and feed us, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: really hold us and delight in us. During your first

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Speaker 1: year or so of life, your mother was left alone

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Speaker 1: with you. Your brother had been kidnapped. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if she knew where he was. I assume she knew that.

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Speaker 1: No she didn't, you're shaking your head. No, So she

275
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Speaker 1: had no idea where your brother was, and she must

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Speaker 1: have been frantic, as any mother would be in that situation.

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Speaker 1: And here she was trying to manage the child she

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Speaker 1: did have at home, frantic over the loss of the

279
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 1: child that she didn't know where he was. And I

280
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Speaker 1: imagine that when she was reunited with him, it was

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Speaker 1: such a relief to her. But also she must have

282
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Speaker 1: held done very tightly to him because he had been

283
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Speaker 1: taken away, and for all that time she was grieving

284
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Speaker 1: a loss, and then here he is, and she doesn't

285
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Speaker 1: want to lose him again. She had never lost you,

286
00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:42,799
Speaker 1: And whether she meant to or not, it sounds like

287
00:18:42,919 --> 00:18:46,399
Speaker 1: somehow that played out in what happened in your early

288
00:18:46,519 --> 00:18:51,359
Speaker 1: childhood when your brother was back. Yeah, when I was

289
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Speaker 1: describing that, what was coming up for you? What were

290
00:18:54,159 --> 00:18:56,319
Speaker 1: you feeling as I was talking about that.

291
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Speaker 4: The way you described it made it sound perhaps better

292
00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:07,319
Speaker 4: than the situation actually was. I don't think she wanted

293
00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 4: to have that second baby in the house. And I

294
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:13,559
Speaker 4: don't think she wanted to have a second child.

295
00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:15,879
Speaker 1: What makes you think that she didn't want to have

296
00:19:15,879 --> 00:19:19,959
Speaker 1: a second child? Did somebody say something about that later

297
00:19:20,039 --> 00:19:20,839
Speaker 1: when you were older?

298
00:19:21,439 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 4: Oh, she has said many, many times. But she didn't

299
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:28,159
Speaker 4: want to have a second child.

300
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Speaker 3: She said that when you were young.

301
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,279
Speaker 4: To you, she did not say that when I was young. No,

302
00:19:36,479 --> 00:19:37,799
Speaker 4: she said that when I was older.

303
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,959
Speaker 3: Because it's not just her that didn't want to have

304
00:19:42,999 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 3: a second child. Your biological dad.

305
00:19:46,239 --> 00:19:47,999
Speaker 4: He did not want to have a second child either.

306
00:19:50,239 --> 00:19:53,519
Speaker 4: He was very close to my brother. My brother was

307
00:19:53,559 --> 00:20:02,039
Speaker 4: born and the three of them had their thing, and yeah,

308
00:20:02,919 --> 00:20:07,279
Speaker 4: when I was born, I was not wanted. I doesn't

309
00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:12,759
Speaker 4: want to buy any of them. And you know, they

310
00:20:13,399 --> 00:20:19,199
Speaker 4: they just lived their lives like that was like, that

311
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,319
Speaker 4: was fine.

312
00:20:22,439 --> 00:20:26,239
Speaker 1: How did it come to light later on that that

313
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,319
Speaker 1: was the situation where they did not want to have

314
00:20:28,319 --> 00:20:29,239
Speaker 1: a second child.

315
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 4: Anytime a conversation came up about having two children and

316
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,519
Speaker 4: my mother would put her foot down and say, you

317
00:20:35,559 --> 00:20:36,839
Speaker 4: should not have two children.

318
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Speaker 3: How did that feel to you?

319
00:20:40,959 --> 00:20:43,839
Speaker 4: Oh? God, awful, absolutely awful.

320
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Speaker 3: Would you tell her as an adult mom? That is

321
00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 3: so painful when you say that my experience growing up

322
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,599
Speaker 3: was that you didn't want to have two children. It's

323
00:20:54,679 --> 00:20:56,559
Speaker 3: so painful when you're saying that to me.

324
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Speaker 4: Now, Oh, I would never. I would never say something

325
00:20:59,319 --> 00:20:59,959
Speaker 4: like that to her.

326
00:21:00,639 --> 00:21:00,999
Speaker 3: Why not?

327
00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 4: I would say, over the last maybe five to ten years,

328
00:21:07,159 --> 00:21:10,079
Speaker 4: I have had a few instances where I was able

329
00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:14,519
Speaker 4: to have a fright conversation with her about a situation

330
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Speaker 4: like that. But before that, I would not say something

331
00:21:18,679 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 4: like that to my mother because there's just there's a

332
00:21:23,839 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 4: dynamic in the relationship that would not allow for me

333
00:21:28,639 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 4: to be that vulnerable with her.

334
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,239
Speaker 3: Are these fears because of your childhood when she was

335
00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:39,519
Speaker 3: unable to respond to your feelings and your needs? Or

336
00:21:39,759 --> 00:21:44,479
Speaker 3: is this that you felt afraid to get in touch

337
00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 3: with how painful it is to say something like that

338
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,839
Speaker 3: to your mom and then risk her again ignoring you,

339
00:21:54,079 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 3: or again dismissing your feelings, or again arguing with your reality.

340
00:21:59,239 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 3: What is it you think that held you back.

341
00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:08,919
Speaker 4: I wasn't necessarily clear enough in my own feelings to

342
00:22:08,999 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 4: be a well to say, oh, Mom, you know, when

343
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,599
Speaker 4: you say that kind of a thing, it really makes

344
00:22:14,679 --> 00:22:19,039
Speaker 4: me hurt a lot. I didn't have the language skills

345
00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:23,999
Speaker 4: to be able to say that. And also I had

346
00:22:24,399 --> 00:22:27,559
Speaker 4: the fear that she would react to me in a

347
00:22:27,639 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 4: way that dismissed what I said, or that she like

348
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,599
Speaker 4: what I said would make her upset, and then she

349
00:22:39,679 --> 00:22:45,039
Speaker 4: would lash out to me or she would treat me

350
00:22:45,239 --> 00:22:49,239
Speaker 4: poorly because I caused her to have that kind of

351
00:22:49,279 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 4: an emotional response.

352
00:22:51,679 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 3: So you said you did have a few conversations with

353
00:22:54,519 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: her in which you were able to express things as

354
00:22:57,679 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 3: an adult.

355
00:22:58,479 --> 00:22:58,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

356
00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:03,799
Speaker 4: She told me one time that this particular year when

357
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:06,279
Speaker 4: I was a child, she said, Oh, that was the

358
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 4: best year. I just really loved that year. And I

359
00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:16,959
Speaker 4: said to her, wow, that was that was probably the

360
00:23:16,999 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 4: worst year of my life.

361
00:23:19,159 --> 00:23:20,519
Speaker 1: Which year are we talking about.

362
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 4: I was in the fourth grade, and I said, wow,

363
00:23:24,439 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 4: that was a really that was a terrible year for me,

364
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 4: and she kind of laughed, like her initial response was, Paha,

365
00:23:33,719 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 4: you know, I can't believe that was your experience, And

366
00:23:37,679 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 4: then she realized that she had just said that, and

367
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:48,039
Speaker 4: then she said, oh, I'm sorry that I didn't know

368
00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 4: that that was the experience that you were having during

369
00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 4: that year.

370
00:23:53,239 --> 00:23:57,079
Speaker 3: So finally a moment of acknowledgment after thirty however many

371
00:23:57,159 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 3: years at that point, what did that feel like to

372
00:23:59,399 --> 00:24:03,039
Speaker 3: you to hear her acknowledge something of your experience.

373
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,799
Speaker 4: It was a good moment. It was fleeting, you know,

374
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:12,839
Speaker 4: it was a small moment. It allowed me to feel like, wow,

375
00:24:12,959 --> 00:24:18,079
Speaker 4: she can't actually see other people's experience.

376
00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: It felt like, finally, there's a there there.

377
00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 4: I could see her as a bit of a human being.

378
00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:32,079
Speaker 3: You even had a business together. And yet I'm assuming

379
00:24:32,199 --> 00:24:34,999
Speaker 3: that you were never really able then to talk with

380
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: him about your experience growing up and about your experience

381
00:24:41,199 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 3: with him growing up, because you weren't having those kinds

382
00:24:45,239 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 3: of conversations at that time.

383
00:24:48,399 --> 00:24:52,559
Speaker 4: That's true. We came to an understanding at some point

384
00:24:52,919 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 4: around high school that we had both grown up in

385
00:24:56,439 --> 00:24:59,079
Speaker 4: a home that was very messed up.

386
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: Who started talking about it.

387
00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say it was a conversation. It was more

388
00:25:07,479 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 4: of a sort of passing acknowledgment of like, you know,

389
00:25:14,199 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 4: tipping our heads to each other with a small comment

390
00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:22,519
Speaker 4: of like, yeah, we've been in this together. Like if

391
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:27,479
Speaker 4: I was having a hard time communicating with a boyfriend.

392
00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:30,519
Speaker 3: Say, and you would tell him about it.

393
00:25:31,439 --> 00:25:33,479
Speaker 4: Well, he would know that it was happening because he

394
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:40,319
Speaker 4: was there. So no, I wouldn't necessarily have those kinds

395
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,039
Speaker 4: of conversations with him. We would have some kind of joke,

396
00:25:44,679 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, well we weren't really taught to be

397
00:25:49,919 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 4: human beings as children.

398
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: So was the idea that he felt that way too.

399
00:25:56,399 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 4: So his experience of his childhood is not good. I

400
00:26:02,919 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 4: can't speak to his to what his experience was. I mean,

401
00:26:06,439 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 4: we have not had these conversations. I think my brother

402
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,039
Speaker 4: is a wounded individual, not in the same way, but

403
00:26:14,719 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: in a very deep way, in the way that I

404
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 4: am a wounded individual, in a very deep way.

405
00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 3: And I think that when you acknowledged we were in

406
00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 3: this together, you were acknowledging yeah, we were both wounded

407
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,839
Speaker 3: here and in different ways, but you actually weren't in

408
00:26:30,879 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 3: it together at all, because he was the baby that

409
00:26:36,719 --> 00:26:40,039
Speaker 3: your parents wanted and you were the one they didn't.

410
00:26:40,439 --> 00:26:42,559
Speaker 3: He was the one that was fused with your mom.

411
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,599
Speaker 3: He was the one whose choices were prioritized, and you

412
00:26:46,679 --> 00:26:49,839
Speaker 3: were the one that felt excluded and left out and

413
00:26:49,959 --> 00:26:53,559
Speaker 3: not part of the family. And he didn't like you either,

414
00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:56,319
Speaker 3: you said, And so you were actually very much not

415
00:26:56,959 --> 00:27:01,479
Speaker 3: in it together. And so I'm curious when you say, oh,

416
00:27:01,479 --> 00:27:04,559
Speaker 3: we were in it together, did you not feel that?

417
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:05,839
Speaker 3: But actually we weren't.

418
00:27:06,639 --> 00:27:10,839
Speaker 4: We were raised in the same home, we were raised

419
00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:11,759
Speaker 4: by the same people.

420
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: Just because you are raised in the same environment doesn't

421
00:27:17,479 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 1: mean that you're experiencing the environment in the same way.

422
00:27:22,879 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: And so That's why siblings can have vastly different experiences

423
00:27:26,719 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: growing up in the very same household. And so it

424
00:27:29,999 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: sounds like you have this idea that, well, we both

425
00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:36,039
Speaker 1: grew up in the same environment, so therefore we have

426
00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:39,079
Speaker 1: the same kinds of wounds. I think you have very

427
00:27:39,879 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: different experiences of growing up in the same household, like

428
00:27:43,199 --> 00:27:44,039
Speaker 1: many siblings do.

429
00:27:45,559 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't doubt that we had a vastly different

430
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:53,559
Speaker 4: experience of the world. I know that's true.

431
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 3: You said that you got close as you were teenagers

432
00:27:58,199 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: and young adults. You were close, but only to a

433
00:28:02,239 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: point because you couldn't really share with him what your

434
00:28:05,679 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: feelings were about your childhood, that he was part of

435
00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 3: that system that rejected you or dismissed you. You weren't

436
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:16,559
Speaker 3: able to share that with him at that time, and

437
00:28:16,639 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 3: so the closeness was there, and comparatively probably felt quite strong.

438
00:28:21,999 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 3: But I'm thinking also of the way when you started

439
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: having friends, it felt like, oh, I finally have these friends,

440
00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: except they weren't friends you could share emotional pain with,

441
00:28:32,399 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 3: much like when you got close with your brother as

442
00:28:34,919 --> 00:28:37,759
Speaker 3: a teenager and a young adult. It was despite the

443
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:42,799
Speaker 3: fact that you couldn't really share with him any emotionally

444
00:28:43,159 --> 00:28:45,999
Speaker 3: painful things. The closest that came to that is that

445
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:48,159
Speaker 3: when he would see you have an issue with the boyfriend,

446
00:28:48,199 --> 00:28:51,159
Speaker 3: that w'd be this kind of nod of recognition of yeah,

447
00:28:51,159 --> 00:28:53,239
Speaker 3: well we came from that house, and so of course

448
00:28:53,239 --> 00:28:59,359
Speaker 3: we're going to have issues. And I'm wondering whether with

449
00:28:59,399 --> 00:29:03,399
Speaker 3: your brother was he able to share with you his

450
00:29:03,599 --> 00:29:06,919
Speaker 3: hurts from childhood in an overt, clear way rather than

451
00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:10,519
Speaker 3: just that wink of recognition between into siblings have been

452
00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 3: through it.

453
00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:15,079
Speaker 4: No, he never shared those things with me. He spent

454
00:29:15,919 --> 00:29:19,839
Speaker 4: ten years in therapy. He spent his twenties, you know,

455
00:29:19,959 --> 00:29:24,559
Speaker 4: mid twenties to mid thirties and therapy, So he at

456
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:30,199
Speaker 4: a much younger age than me, found what I can

457
00:29:30,239 --> 00:29:34,359
Speaker 4: assume to be a situation where he could have those

458
00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:37,079
Speaker 4: conversations with someone, but they weren't with me.

459
00:29:38,399 --> 00:29:40,279
Speaker 1: But he revealed to you at the time that he

460
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:44,199
Speaker 1: was going to therapy. And did you think I might

461
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:44,839
Speaker 1: want to do that?

462
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:47,279
Speaker 4: I did not at that time.

463
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:48,119
Speaker 1: No.

464
00:29:49,399 --> 00:29:53,159
Speaker 4: Well I think that I had a very hard shell.

465
00:29:53,879 --> 00:30:00,599
Speaker 4: It didn't allow me to see that communicating these things

466
00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 4: could be helpful.

467
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:05,879
Speaker 1: What was the impetus for you in your mid thirties

468
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:08,159
Speaker 1: for deciding to go to therapy.

469
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 4: I had come out of a relationship with a man

470
00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:20,919
Speaker 4: and that relationship ended, and it was very painful, and

471
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:24,359
Speaker 4: I came to the realization that if I was going

472
00:30:24,439 --> 00:30:27,599
Speaker 4: to have a relationship with any man in the future

473
00:30:28,199 --> 00:30:30,919
Speaker 4: and I wanted it to work, that I was going

474
00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:32,999
Speaker 4: to need to change.

475
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:35,999
Speaker 1: What were you noticing that was going on in this

476
00:30:36,119 --> 00:30:39,279
Speaker 1: relationship that made it difficult for you to be in it?

477
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:48,559
Speaker 4: That I had very big and very painful feelings that

478
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:52,359
Speaker 4: I had no way to communicate with this person.

479
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,879
Speaker 1: About, meaning you didn't communicate them, or when you did,

480
00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:57,799
Speaker 1: it came out in a way that made it hard

481
00:30:57,839 --> 00:30:58,839
Speaker 1: for him to be there for you.

482
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,919
Speaker 4: I didn't communicate them with him. I wasn't able to.

483
00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:10,999
Speaker 4: I literally could not speak in those situations.

484
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 3: And so when did that start to change? When were

485
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:19,599
Speaker 3: you able to start talking about your feelings in a

486
00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:23,999
Speaker 3: vulnerable way and to whom well?

487
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:29,839
Speaker 4: I started seeing a therapist probably within a month after

488
00:31:29,999 --> 00:31:35,879
Speaker 4: that relationship ended, and that that person taught me that

489
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 4: if someone is open to and available for that kind

490
00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:46,319
Speaker 4: of communication, that it is possible to sit and look

491
00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:49,159
Speaker 4: at someone in the face and talk to them about

492
00:31:49,199 --> 00:31:53,519
Speaker 4: your biguest, most painful feeling. I mean, I met my

493
00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:57,079
Speaker 4: partner probably while I was still going through this therapy.

494
00:31:58,279 --> 00:32:01,399
Speaker 4: I was thirty four years old, and I was like, oh, yeah,

495
00:32:01,719 --> 00:32:03,999
Speaker 4: never had a relationship with someone that I trust, so

496
00:32:04,639 --> 00:32:08,679
Speaker 4: now I have one. I'm only laughing because it's the

497
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:10,399
Speaker 4: sounds sorts to be.

498
00:32:11,479 --> 00:32:16,359
Speaker 3: Given everything that you're describing, it would be practically shocking

499
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:17,879
Speaker 3: if you were able to trust someone.

500
00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:23,159
Speaker 4: I think it's ridiculous. It seems to me I always

501
00:32:23,679 --> 00:32:28,759
Speaker 4: intellectually understood what trust was, but I never had an

502
00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:29,679
Speaker 4: experience of it.

503
00:32:31,479 --> 00:32:33,799
Speaker 3: I'm saying that, Zoe because it sounds a little bit

504
00:32:34,199 --> 00:32:37,839
Speaker 3: like you've internalized some of what you were getting as

505
00:32:37,879 --> 00:32:42,199
Speaker 3: a child in which your feelings were being dismissed and invalidated,

506
00:32:42,999 --> 00:32:45,759
Speaker 3: that you're still doing that to yourself, and just pointing

507
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:48,359
Speaker 3: that out, because when you grow up with so much

508
00:32:49,159 --> 00:32:53,799
Speaker 3: blanket and validation, it's difficult not to internalize some of it,

509
00:32:53,919 --> 00:32:56,999
Speaker 3: and then it seeps out sometimes and you find yourself

510
00:32:57,959 --> 00:33:01,599
Speaker 3: saying something, admitting to a feeling that is so natural

511
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,239
Speaker 3: given the circumstance, but looking at it and going like, oh,

512
00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:08,559
Speaker 3: but that's silly, and it's very much not silly. Do

513
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:11,279
Speaker 3: you notice that you do that, that you might still

514
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:13,199
Speaker 3: be invalidating your feelings.

515
00:33:12,719 --> 00:33:18,319
Speaker 4: Sometimes I do that, certainly from time to time, I

516
00:33:18,439 --> 00:33:21,919
Speaker 4: would say that I make a choice to perhaps not

517
00:33:21,999 --> 00:33:25,199
Speaker 4: connect to that pain in some moments.

518
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:30,679
Speaker 1: What guys talking about is partly being able to acknowledge

519
00:33:30,719 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: the pain, But the other part is what he was

520
00:33:32,719 --> 00:33:38,799
Speaker 1: saying about self compassion. When you're talking about your experiences

521
00:33:39,479 --> 00:33:42,759
Speaker 1: and you judge yourself like it took me this long

522
00:33:42,959 --> 00:33:48,359
Speaker 1: before I could do this. Well, of course because of

523
00:33:48,399 --> 00:33:52,039
Speaker 1: what you experienced, and that's what happened in your family.

524
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:54,199
Speaker 1: You'd say I'm feeling this, and they would say, well, no,

525
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:57,599
Speaker 1: you're not, that's not your experience, or that shouldn't be

526
00:33:57,639 --> 00:34:02,799
Speaker 1: your experience. You kind of do that to yourself absolutely.

527
00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:05,079
Speaker 1: And it sounds like when you went to therapy, it

528
00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:06,759
Speaker 1: was the first time that you were able to sit

529
00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:12,039
Speaker 1: with someone and not have them dismiss or discount what

530
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: your experience was. And I think it's not a coincidence

531
00:34:15,799 --> 00:34:18,559
Speaker 1: that you met this person right as you started going

532
00:34:18,959 --> 00:34:23,119
Speaker 1: to therapy, and here was this person who was able

533
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: to be with you in a way that I think

534
00:34:25,359 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: you longed for for a very long time. And so

535
00:34:29,879 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that relationship.

536
00:34:32,919 --> 00:34:38,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been seven years since we met. My relationship

537
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 4: with him started out the sort of beautiful way, in

538
00:34:46,359 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 4: a way that I had never seen a relationship happen,

539
00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:55,479
Speaker 4: and that was very meaningful for me. I wasn't able

540
00:34:55,519 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: to see the therapist continuously, and so at some point

541
00:35:00,919 --> 00:35:04,119
Speaker 4: I had to say, this has been an incredibly powerful

542
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 4: time for me, but I can't see you any longer.

543
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 4: That was for financial reasons, so I stopped seeing her. So,

544
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,119
Speaker 4: you know, situations would arise in my relationship with Mark

545
00:35:17,159 --> 00:35:22,999
Speaker 4: that made me unhappy, and I would do whatever form

546
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 4: of communicating I could that I thought would sort of

547
00:35:27,759 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 4: pave the way for open and honest dialogue. Oftentimes, my

548
00:35:32,479 --> 00:35:38,159
Speaker 4: communication tactics didn't work and we ended up not communicating

549
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:41,639
Speaker 4: clearly about things that made me unhappy in the relationship.

550
00:35:42,359 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: Is the reason that you and Mark haven't gone to

551
00:35:46,399 --> 00:35:51,559
Speaker 1: therapy a financial reason? Yeah, you know. The first thing

552
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: that came to mind when you were saying that your

553
00:35:53,359 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: brother went to therapy for about ten years starting in

554
00:35:55,839 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: his twenties, was this issue of finances. I wondered if

555
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: there was some envy that you had of his ability

556
00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: to go and work through some of this stuff from

557
00:36:11,399 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: childhood in a way that maybe you didn't have access to.

558
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:21,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was worried about money in having children.

559
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:23,639
Speaker 3: I'm going to get to your brother who said he

560
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 3: became an engineer. I think you said, and started making money.

561
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: And that's what you identified is creating a bit of

562
00:36:32,439 --> 00:36:35,599
Speaker 3: a witch between you. Tell us how that happened.

563
00:36:36,359 --> 00:36:40,639
Speaker 4: When Derek met Carol, the primary reason that he was

564
00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 4: so attracted to her is that she's extremely well adjusted.

565
00:36:47,279 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 4: She's very happy, she knows how to communicate her wants

566
00:36:50,879 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 4: and her needs, she gets what she wants from her life.

567
00:36:54,439 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 4: She's very satisfied, and that was the primary reason that

568
00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:05,159
Speaker 4: Derek wanted to marry her. So my brother and I

569
00:37:05,319 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 4: and his wife, we have had times where we spend

570
00:37:09,759 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 4: time together and we're great friends. What I have found

571
00:37:16,439 --> 00:37:20,959
Speaker 4: over the last few years is that I don't have

572
00:37:20,999 --> 00:37:25,639
Speaker 4: any ability to talk with them about things that are

573
00:37:25,639 --> 00:37:28,999
Speaker 4: going on in my life that aren't positive. So it's

574
00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:32,039
Speaker 4: like I am in that same dynamic again where I

575
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 4: have these fair weather friends who I really like, I

576
00:37:35,399 --> 00:37:39,479
Speaker 4: really love them, but I can't be honest with them

577
00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 4: about my real experience in the world. Necessarily.

578
00:37:45,839 --> 00:37:48,119
Speaker 1: What makes you think that you can't talk to them

579
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: about what's really going on in your life?

580
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 4: Well, with Carol, she doesn't react empathetically. When I was

581
00:37:56,959 --> 00:38:02,199
Speaker 4: in my last pregnancy, I was very sick and I

582
00:38:02,359 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 4: was very socially isolated, and every now and then she

583
00:38:07,279 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 4: would text me and she would say, oh, how are

584
00:38:09,839 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 4: you and I would say, oh my god, I am

585
00:38:13,439 --> 00:38:17,559
Speaker 4: doing terribly. This is awful. I can't believe how bad

586
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: it is right now. And she would reply to my

587
00:38:20,799 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 4: texts bummer.

588
00:38:24,279 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: Not like, hey, can I bring you something? Do you

589
00:38:27,799 --> 00:38:30,159
Speaker 1: need help? Can I keep you company?

590
00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 4: Nothing like that. She never once brought me anything or

591
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,479
Speaker 4: came to my house or offered to help with my child.

592
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 4: I had a four year old child. She never once

593
00:38:41,799 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 4: offered to watch my kid for five minutes.

594
00:38:44,399 --> 00:38:47,679
Speaker 1: What about your brother when you were pregnant and if

595
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: you had said to him, hey, I'm really struggling, was

596
00:38:51,359 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 1: he more empathetic?

597
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 4: I don't remember. I don't remember really even communicating with

598
00:38:58,359 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 4: him during my bregnancy.

599
00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 1: And yet you were so close. Weren't you running a

600
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: business together.

601
00:39:03,999 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 4: We stopped running our business together right before he had

602
00:39:08,359 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 4: his first child, so there were many years where we

603
00:39:12,959 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 4: weren't necessarily seeing each other very often. We weren't talking.

604
00:39:19,759 --> 00:39:22,999
Speaker 3: Have you had an experience of sharing something painful with

605
00:39:22,999 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: your brother in which he responded poorly or without empathy.

606
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 4: Yes. Absolutely. I gave birth to my son in April

607
00:39:33,519 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 4: of last year, and when he turned a year old,

608
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 4: I said to my brother a number of times, you know,

609
00:39:42,399 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 4: it's been really challenging for me. We've had twelve months

610
00:39:46,399 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 4: of three hundred and sixty five days, twenty four hours

611
00:39:48,839 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 4: a day of caring for this infant, and we haven't

612
00:39:52,399 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 4: had a single moment during that time for someone else

613
00:39:56,279 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 4: to watch him. And twice in a row my brother responded, Oh,

614
00:40:04,479 --> 00:40:08,199
Speaker 4: you're gonna value this time. This is a really special

615
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,119
Speaker 4: time for you, guys. It's really going to be meaningful someday.

616
00:40:12,879 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: Much like you got growing up.

617
00:40:15,279 --> 00:40:19,999
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's how I feel my brother treats me nowadays.

618
00:40:20,359 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 3: Was there a time where you were able to share

619
00:40:22,959 --> 00:40:26,679
Speaker 3: painful moments or struggles where he would respond with more

620
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:27,679
Speaker 3: empathy and compassion.

621
00:40:28,399 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 4: Definitely, when we were working together. If I had something

622
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 4: happen with a friend that made me upset, I was

623
00:40:37,399 --> 00:40:42,159
Speaker 4: able to talk with him about that and he was

624
00:40:42,199 --> 00:40:47,039
Speaker 4: able to say I understand why you're upset in this moment.

625
00:40:47,919 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: What was that like for you to hear that, To

626
00:40:49,799 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: finally hear someone in your family say, yeah, I understand

627
00:40:52,839 --> 00:40:55,079
Speaker 1: that you're feeling that way. It makes sense to me.

628
00:40:56,199 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 4: Fall pleasures, you know, Yeah, I could take that moment

629
00:40:59,999 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 4: as this is a genuine experience in life.

630
00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 3: In your letter, you indicated you thought that what has

631
00:41:08,279 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 3: caused some of the emotional drifting between you is the

632
00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 3: financial disparity or the change in his financial circumstance. Tell

633
00:41:16,359 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 3: us why you think that is what was underlying some

634
00:41:19,479 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 3: of this change.

635
00:41:21,359 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 4: What I see as what happened was when I had

636
00:41:25,759 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 4: my first child. Once that child went to childcare, we

637
00:41:30,399 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 4: were literally spending all of the money that we made

638
00:41:33,319 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 4: every month on living child care and our lives. Literally

639
00:41:37,959 --> 00:41:40,519
Speaker 4: every dollar that we brought in went out to pay

640
00:41:40,559 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 4: for things. And so I think there was a time

641
00:41:44,319 --> 00:41:47,639
Speaker 4: period where if we were hanging out, you know, I

642
00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:51,039
Speaker 4: would say something like, yeah, we can't afford that kind

643
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 4: of a thing. And maybe some time went on like

644
00:41:55,359 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 4: that before I realized that Derek and Carroll, or Carol specifically,

645
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 4: was really annoyed. She was really annoyed that I would

646
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 4: talk about money like that that way.

647
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:12,999
Speaker 1: In other words, they would say, Hey, we went on

648
00:42:12,999 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: this vacation, or we bought such and such.

649
00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 4: They would say, oh, have you guys tried this new restaurant.

650
00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 4: It's really you know, everybody's talking about it. It's really great.

651
00:42:25,799 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 4: We went and it was really awesome. And I would say, yeah,

652
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: you know, we're not eating at restaurants right now, we

653
00:42:33,319 --> 00:42:36,959
Speaker 4: don't have the money. When I realized that she was

654
00:42:36,999 --> 00:42:39,199
Speaker 4: displeased with those kinds of comments, it made me want

655
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,159
Speaker 4: to hang out with her less. And it also made

656
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:46,199
Speaker 4: me hyper aware of the fact that, Okay, I'm going

657
00:42:46,279 --> 00:42:49,639
Speaker 4: to make an effort to not say those kinds of things.

658
00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:52,679
Speaker 1: What about how your brother would react.

659
00:42:53,879 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: I don't know that he was annoyed by it, but

660
00:42:57,999 --> 00:43:03,639
Speaker 4: what I noticed around that same time was that they

661
00:43:03,759 --> 00:43:07,559
Speaker 4: were often communicating about how they were spending so much money.

662
00:43:08,159 --> 00:43:11,159
Speaker 4: So the conversation be, oh, yeah, we just went to

663
00:43:11,199 --> 00:43:15,559
Speaker 4: Hawaii for five weeks. It made me feel like, are

664
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 4: we not allowed to be honest with each other in

665
00:43:17,359 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 4: this relationship? I feel like if I communicate openly about

666
00:43:22,279 --> 00:43:26,119
Speaker 4: the things that I'm struggling with in life, that those

667
00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 4: conversations are shot down, And you know, it's come to

668
00:43:30,799 --> 00:43:33,679
Speaker 4: the point where these people are acting like annoyed with me.

669
00:43:34,879 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: That sounds so familiar that when you would bring up

670
00:43:39,479 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: something that made other people uncomfortable as a child, they

671
00:43:43,319 --> 00:43:50,079
Speaker 1: would get annoyed with you. Yeah, And the other commonality

672
00:43:50,319 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: is that theme of exclusion that they are able to

673
00:43:54,879 --> 00:43:58,119
Speaker 1: live in this way. While you said twenty four to seven,

674
00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:01,559
Speaker 1: you're thinking about money and what you don't have and

675
00:44:02,639 --> 00:44:05,159
Speaker 1: your brother does have it. And I think that that

676
00:44:05,279 --> 00:44:11,199
Speaker 1: somehow brings up that very old feeling of he's in

677
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 1: and I'm out.

678
00:44:13,479 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have a lot of child's care, They have

679
00:44:16,319 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 4: a lot of family close by who takes care of

680
00:44:18,919 --> 00:44:21,639
Speaker 4: their children for them. They have a lot of freedom,

681
00:44:21,919 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 4: they have a lot of time to spend, they have

682
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:28,919
Speaker 4: a lot of money. They just they have all these

683
00:44:28,919 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 4: things and we don't have those things.

684
00:44:31,799 --> 00:44:35,199
Speaker 1: So are we talking about envy because I imagine when

685
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,999
Speaker 1: you were young you felt very envious of your brother's

686
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: position in the family and what he was getting, even

687
00:44:41,799 --> 00:44:43,159
Speaker 1: if it had its problems.

688
00:44:43,959 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 4: It certainly is envy. I mean envy in a way

689
00:44:47,999 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 4: that's like, yeah, I wish I had those things too.

690
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily begrudge these people for having the things.

691
00:44:56,359 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 4: What I don't like is the way that they're treating me.

692
00:45:00,759 --> 00:45:04,999
Speaker 3: And that's the third part that's familiar, is that when

693
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:10,199
Speaker 3: you feel that, what you do is you have a

694
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:14,479
Speaker 3: time addressing it and talking about it directly and saying

695
00:45:14,479 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 3: to your brother, can we please talk about the tensions

696
00:45:18,879 --> 00:45:21,639
Speaker 3: that happen between us when we talk about finances and

697
00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 3: your case what you have in my guess what I don't.

698
00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 3: That's the other pattern that continues that your response to

699
00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 3: that is to kind of close up and withdraw.

700
00:45:32,399 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 4: Perhaps, Yeah, it's definitely what I'm doing is withdrawing from

701
00:45:38,839 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 4: the situation.

702
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: What would you like to see happen if you were

703
00:45:43,799 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: able to talk to him? Meaning, what would you like

704
00:45:47,879 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: to see go differently? Maybe it's more about wanting your

705
00:45:57,399 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: brother to recognize that maybe this is hard for you.

706
00:46:03,159 --> 00:46:08,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think certainly them recognizing that my life has

707
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:12,479
Speaker 4: become much more more difficult over the years while their

708
00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 4: lives has become much easier. So I would like to

709
00:46:16,919 --> 00:46:20,519
Speaker 4: see them, yeah, be able to accept.

710
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: That, accept that or acknowledge it.

711
00:46:24,799 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, to acknowledge the fact that my life is much

712
00:46:28,999 --> 00:46:32,999
Speaker 4: more difficult now than it was before would be nice,

713
00:46:33,359 --> 00:46:37,679
Speaker 4: And to give some room in the relationship for the

714
00:46:37,759 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 4: fact that everything is not perfect in my life and.

715
00:46:42,839 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: Perhaps to have some sensitivity to that that maybe you're

716
00:46:47,359 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 3: not the best audience for how fabulous Hawaii was, or

717
00:46:51,479 --> 00:46:54,679
Speaker 3: you must try a SNeW restaurant everyone's raving about it

718
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 3: when you're like, we're not trying with Dun's right now.

719
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 3: To have more sensitivity.

720
00:46:59,919 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 4: To have some sensitivity would be great. Yeah.

721
00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 1: And the other part of it that I think is

722
00:47:06,439 --> 00:47:10,999
Speaker 1: important is less about them and more about you, which

723
00:47:11,079 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: is you're not the child who's at the mercy of

724
00:47:15,479 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: what people in the family are deciding in terms of

725
00:47:18,399 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: who's in and who's out, and who gets something and

726
00:47:20,359 --> 00:47:22,079
Speaker 1: who doesn't get something, and who gets to go to

727
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: the school they want and who doesn't get to go

728
00:47:23,759 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: to the school that they want. And I wonder if

729
00:47:27,399 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: you've internalized some of that messaging that you don't get

730
00:47:31,879 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 1: to have and so you don't try to have. In

731
00:47:36,999 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: other words, you kind of accept, well, my relationship isn't

732
00:47:39,439 --> 00:47:42,479
Speaker 1: where I want it to be, but oh well, and

733
00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: we're really struggling with money, but oh well, as opposed

734
00:47:46,919 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: to really opening up your imagination to what might I

735
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: be able to do now? That nobody's holding me back

736
00:47:59,319 --> 00:48:01,519
Speaker 1: to have the kind of relationship that I want to have.

737
00:48:01,799 --> 00:48:06,159
Speaker 1: What might need to happen there, or what might we

738
00:48:06,319 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: as a couple do to change our financial situation so

739
00:48:11,319 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: that we can have some of the things that maybe

740
00:48:13,799 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: we want, So that you're not always pressed up against

741
00:48:16,919 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 1: the glass saying, Oh, I'm stuck in here and my

742
00:48:20,999 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: brother has all these things that I want.

743
00:48:24,799 --> 00:48:28,559
Speaker 4: I appreciate you saying that it's definitely some of those

744
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:31,919
Speaker 4: things are things that I am addressing, and some of

745
00:48:31,959 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 4: those things are things that I had thought to address.

746
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: We have this saying follow your envy. It tells you

747
00:48:38,879 --> 00:48:42,439
Speaker 1: what you want. And sometimes we don't like to acknowledge

748
00:48:42,479 --> 00:48:45,199
Speaker 1: our envy because we feel like it makes us small

749
00:48:45,279 --> 00:48:48,679
Speaker 1: or petty, but actually it helps us to get in

750
00:48:48,679 --> 00:48:52,039
Speaker 1: touch with our desires. It helps us to say I

751
00:48:52,119 --> 00:48:54,519
Speaker 1: want that. So, when you were young and you wanted

752
00:48:55,359 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 1: what your brother had in some way, even though it

753
00:48:57,439 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: was dysfunctional in a different way, there was some elements

754
00:49:00,319 --> 00:49:01,479
Speaker 1: of it that you wanted.

755
00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:06,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother seemed to have a healthy relationship with

756
00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:07,079
Speaker 4: my mother.

757
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: What he had was her love in a way that

758
00:49:11,319 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 1: was different from her love for you. And now he

759
00:49:14,439 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: has somebody that he's married to who seems to have

760
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:20,999
Speaker 1: not had so much trauma growing up, and I think

761
00:49:21,039 --> 00:49:23,999
Speaker 1: that on the one hand, you feel like that makes

762
00:49:23,999 --> 00:49:27,039
Speaker 1: it hard for her to connect with you or you

763
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: to connect with her. But on the other hand, I

764
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,919
Speaker 1: think there might be some envy there that she's had

765
00:49:31,919 --> 00:49:36,519
Speaker 1: it easier, and that might make you put up some

766
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:39,639
Speaker 1: walls where maybe there could be more of a relationship

767
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: there it feels better. And then you have your brother

768
00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: having more help with the kids and more financial freedom,

769
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:49,039
Speaker 1: and maybe there's a way that you could have a

770
00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: better relationship and more financial freedom.

771
00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so we think that there are ways, perhaps

772
00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:02,999
Speaker 3: that you can shape off still some more of the

773
00:50:03,079 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 3: old habits and perspectives which were very paralyzing. And if

774
00:50:08,479 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 3: you're very helpless and realize that you can take certain

775
00:50:13,999 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 3: actions and speak up about certain things now in ways

776
00:50:17,799 --> 00:50:21,119
Speaker 3: that you truly don't in your childhood and even in

777
00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: your early adults.

778
00:50:27,879 --> 00:50:31,559
Speaker 1: So, Zoe, we have some advice for you, and it's

779
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:36,199
Speaker 1: in a few parts. The first part is that we

780
00:50:36,199 --> 00:50:38,519
Speaker 1: would like you to have a conversation with your brother

781
00:50:40,839 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 1: in which you say to him, I feel this tension

782
00:50:44,439 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: between us now as adults. This distance that's growing between us,

783
00:50:49,879 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 1: and I think part of it has to do with

784
00:50:53,319 --> 00:50:58,199
Speaker 1: the fact that your life looks different from my life financially,

785
00:50:59,279 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: and I think that that's bringing up some old feelings

786
00:51:01,399 --> 00:51:07,919
Speaker 1: in me around exclusion and other experiences that I had

787
00:51:08,319 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: growing up. And I would love to be able to

788
00:51:12,359 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: talk with you because I think that it will help

789
00:51:15,919 --> 00:51:19,119
Speaker 1: me to feel closer to you, and it will help

790
00:51:19,159 --> 00:51:23,479
Speaker 1: with some of this tension and distance that's going on

791
00:51:23,519 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: between us now, and then to really be able to

792
00:51:27,359 --> 00:51:33,159
Speaker 1: talk with him about what it was like when you

793
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,519
Speaker 1: found out from your mom that they didn't want a

794
00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: second child, and what it was like to see that

795
00:51:38,879 --> 00:51:42,959
Speaker 1: closeness that he had with your mom, and at the

796
00:51:42,999 --> 00:51:45,599
Speaker 1: same time feeling like, but I also want a relationship

797
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:47,999
Speaker 1: with my brother, and even as an adult, really wanting

798
00:51:47,999 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: a relationship with him, and how a lot of that

799
00:51:50,839 --> 00:51:54,959
Speaker 1: is coming up again because you're seeing this difference and

800
00:51:54,999 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: it sort of magnified something that you feel like would

801
00:51:58,359 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 1: maybe not feel so big if you could talk about

802
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: some of these things that you've never talked about, because

803
00:52:04,759 --> 00:52:08,119
Speaker 1: he's really the only other person that was there.

804
00:52:09,479 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 4: I like that idea.

805
00:52:11,879 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 3: The second part of that conversation with Derek is to say,

806
00:52:16,839 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 3: and I do want to address to financial difference between us,

807
00:52:21,919 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: because right now I think it's a point of tension

808
00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:30,159
Speaker 3: that you guys talk about what you do and we

809
00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 3: talk about what we can't do as a response. But

810
00:52:33,999 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 3: I think there's room for both. I think there's room

811
00:52:36,999 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 3: for us to be excited for you about the things

812
00:52:40,399 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 3: that you can do, about your trip to Hawaii and

813
00:52:42,919 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 3: the great new restaurant you tried, and there's room at

814
00:52:45,799 --> 00:52:48,959
Speaker 3: the same time for you guys to be compassionate toward

815
00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 3: us and sympathetic that we're not in that place where

816
00:52:51,999 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 3: we can do those things. The two can exist together,

817
00:52:56,479 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 3: and I think we've kind of been dancing around it

818
00:52:58,919 --> 00:53:01,119
Speaker 3: and feeling tense about how do you talk about your

819
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:04,039
Speaker 3: lives without upsetting us and how do we talk about

820
00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 3: hours without upsetting you? But there's room for both, and

821
00:53:06,919 --> 00:53:10,679
Speaker 3: perhaps we can agree that we can be supportive and

822
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 3: excited for you, and that you guys can be sympathetic

823
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:18,479
Speaker 3: to us, that those things can happen at the same time, and.

824
00:53:18,399 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 1: That maybe if there was a little bit more acknowledgement,

825
00:53:21,679 --> 00:53:23,639
Speaker 1: because when we were growing up, there was not a

826
00:53:23,679 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: lot of acknowledgment around my pain that if there's a

827
00:53:27,759 --> 00:53:31,199
Speaker 1: little bit more acknowledgment that we are in different situations,

828
00:53:31,919 --> 00:53:34,559
Speaker 1: it would free me up to truly be excited and

829
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: happy for you.

830
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,879
Speaker 3: And the last part is we would like you and

831
00:53:39,919 --> 00:53:46,919
Speaker 3: your husband to find a low fee clinic, which is

832
00:53:47,079 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 3: much easier to do these days because it doesn't have

833
00:53:49,919 --> 00:53:54,479
Speaker 3: to be something that's geographically possible because of zoom. But

834
00:53:54,559 --> 00:53:59,999
Speaker 3: there are in many teaching institutions, universities, all kinds of

835
00:54:00,079 --> 00:54:02,039
Speaker 3: low fee clinics, and you would like you to find

836
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:05,479
Speaker 3: one that does couple's therapy, and if your husband would agree,

837
00:54:05,959 --> 00:54:09,479
Speaker 3: because we think you do need a facilitator to help

838
00:54:09,519 --> 00:54:12,199
Speaker 3: you talk and for you to feel safe, because we

839
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,879
Speaker 3: think that's quite important that you can talk together, not

840
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:19,159
Speaker 3: just about the relationship, but what changes can you make

841
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:22,599
Speaker 3: in your lives to gain a little bit more financial

842
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 3: breathing room than you have at the moment.

843
00:54:25,919 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was this sense as a child, because it

844
00:54:29,519 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: was true that you were trapped by those circumstances. You

845
00:54:33,879 --> 00:54:37,119
Speaker 1: might feel more comfortable in the old story, but we

846
00:54:37,159 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: want to help you to feel more comfortable moving into

847
00:54:41,279 --> 00:54:42,119
Speaker 1: this newer.

848
00:54:41,799 --> 00:54:47,519
Speaker 3: Place wonderful and so we look forward to hearing how

849
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:48,079
Speaker 3: that goes.

850
00:54:56,879 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: So this was one of those sessions where it seemed

851
00:54:59,879 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: like the issue was about money, and it is, but

852
00:55:02,959 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: there was so much from the past to unpack as well,

853
00:55:07,479 --> 00:55:11,039
Speaker 1: and we gave her a lot to do in terms

854
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 1: of opening up those conversations, and that might be a

855
00:55:14,279 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: little hard for her to do.

856
00:55:16,199 --> 00:55:20,039
Speaker 3: And we always find that money is such an uncomfortable

857
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 3: topic for people to address, and so I think, both

858
00:55:24,839 --> 00:55:27,079
Speaker 3: for her and maybe for her brother, that might be

859
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: difficult to actually talk about. But I do hope that

860
00:55:29,759 --> 00:55:31,999
Speaker 3: they at least talk about the relationship or at least

861
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 3: start to communicate in some deeper way, because I think

862
00:55:35,279 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 3: that would be very useful for her.

863
00:55:37,279 --> 00:55:39,919
Speaker 1: And one of the things that happens when you start

864
00:55:39,999 --> 00:55:43,439
Speaker 1: looking at opening up a conversation with somebody close to

865
00:55:43,479 --> 00:55:47,199
Speaker 1: you is you might start looking at the other relationships

866
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: around you, like we did with her husband, and I

867
00:55:50,879 --> 00:55:53,959
Speaker 1: really hope that she follows through and is able to

868
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: open up a conversation with her husband so that she

869
00:55:57,319 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: can focus on that relationship as well. The issue with

870
00:56:00,319 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: her brother doesn't supersede this really important work that it

871
00:56:04,359 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: seems like she has to do in her marriage, so.

872
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,119
Speaker 3: It'll be interesting to see if once she has one

873
00:56:10,159 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 3: of those conversations, whether that gives her confidence to be

874
00:56:13,279 --> 00:56:23,479
Speaker 3: able to have the opp You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio.

875
00:56:23,919 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 3: We'll be back after a quick break.

876
00:56:36,399 --> 00:56:38,959
Speaker 1: So we heard back from Zoe and we asked her

877
00:56:38,999 --> 00:56:42,399
Speaker 1: to have two difficult conversations, the first with her brother

878
00:56:42,919 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: and the second with her husband. So let's hear how

879
00:56:45,359 --> 00:56:45,679
Speaker 1: they went.

880
00:56:46,519 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 6: So I didn't make the call right away because I

881
00:56:49,479 --> 00:56:50,679
Speaker 6: was so anxious.

882
00:56:50,839 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 7: I did allow some time to pass, which allowed me

883
00:56:53,479 --> 00:56:57,639
Speaker 7: to really process my own experience.

884
00:56:57,079 --> 00:56:57,999
Speaker 4: Which was good.

885
00:56:58,959 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 6: So when I talk to him, we had, you know,

886
00:57:01,479 --> 00:57:07,199
Speaker 6: our standard chat at first, which has really made up

887
00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:10,599
Speaker 6: all of the time that we have spent together. I

888
00:57:10,599 --> 00:57:13,119
Speaker 6: would say over the last probably two years, has been

889
00:57:13,279 --> 00:57:17,239
Speaker 6: just standard chat small talk, which I feel like small

890
00:57:17,279 --> 00:57:23,759
Speaker 6: talk just makes me feel small. But anyway, our conversation was.

891
00:57:23,719 --> 00:57:31,759
Speaker 8: Able to go to a very open and honest and

892
00:57:32,079 --> 00:57:37,759
Speaker 8: vulnerable place, which was really wonderful. We talked for about

893
00:57:37,799 --> 00:57:42,159
Speaker 8: two hours and I was able to speak with my

894
00:57:42,279 --> 00:57:49,399
Speaker 8: brother about my own experience of childhood, and he definitely

895
00:57:49,799 --> 00:57:53,439
Speaker 8: had a few moments where he was like, yeah, you

896
00:57:53,919 --> 00:57:59,599
Speaker 8: were ridiculously emotional, which did not make me feel good,

897
00:57:59,719 --> 00:58:02,879
Speaker 8: but I was able to be clear with him and

898
00:58:03,319 --> 00:58:07,999
Speaker 8: let him know, Yeah, I'm an emotional person. Like to me,

899
00:58:09,039 --> 00:58:14,799
Speaker 8: my superpower is having very strong emotions about things. So

900
00:58:14,839 --> 00:58:20,319
Speaker 8: we were able to talk about our experiences in childhood,

901
00:58:20,519 --> 00:58:26,879
Speaker 8: and he tried to make it clear to me that

902
00:58:27,079 --> 00:58:34,039
Speaker 8: he was equally unhappy about our childhood as I was.

903
00:58:35,039 --> 00:58:39,159
Speaker 8: After I had the conversation, I felt a huge load

904
00:58:39,239 --> 00:58:44,399
Speaker 8: off of my shoulders. I mean, I realized that my

905
00:58:44,479 --> 00:58:47,039
Speaker 8: brother I was just doing the best that he can

906
00:58:47,439 --> 00:58:54,599
Speaker 8: and honestly, to hear him talk about how difficult.

907
00:58:54,599 --> 00:59:00,999
Speaker 7: Life is for him, you know, he still very deeply

908
00:59:01,199 --> 00:59:08,359
Speaker 7: carries the scars of his childhood and they really affect

909
00:59:08,519 --> 00:59:11,439
Speaker 7: his day to day life. It made me happy that

910
00:59:11,679 --> 00:59:15,119
Speaker 7: he was able to be honest with me. I feel

911
00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:19,919
Speaker 7: like for so long he puts on this smiling, happy

912
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:22,679
Speaker 7: face every time I see him, and I just feel

913
00:59:22,719 --> 00:59:24,679
Speaker 7: like it's I feel like it's bony.

914
00:59:24,759 --> 00:59:25,719
Speaker 4: I feel like it's fake.

915
00:59:26,959 --> 00:59:29,839
Speaker 7: And so to have him be real with me and

916
00:59:29,879 --> 00:59:33,159
Speaker 7: tell him what his real experience of life is, that

917
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:37,399
Speaker 7: felt really good with my partner. You know, it's really

918
00:59:37,439 --> 00:59:40,119
Speaker 7: the first time that we sat down and had lunch together.

919
00:59:40,439 --> 00:59:44,279
Speaker 7: Probably was the day after. We've had this conversation in

920
00:59:44,319 --> 00:59:46,719
Speaker 7: the past where I say, you know, I really think

921
00:59:46,759 --> 00:59:50,039
Speaker 7: that we need to have professional help, and we both

922
00:59:50,119 --> 00:59:52,399
Speaker 7: agreed that it's a good idea and that we should

923
00:59:52,439 --> 00:59:54,839
Speaker 7: do it, but we haven't done it.

924
00:59:54,919 --> 00:59:59,959
Speaker 9: So there's a lot of fear involved with just surfacing

925
01:00:00,079 --> 01:00:04,719
Speaker 9: this issue. But I had a conversation with him and went, well,

926
01:00:05,239 --> 01:00:07,359
Speaker 9: you know, he he's open to the idea.

927
01:00:07,679 --> 01:00:14,079
Speaker 4: I perhaps even saw a flicker of excitement over the prospect.

928
01:00:14,839 --> 01:00:18,799
Speaker 4: There's a little bit of a sort of a sunny possibility,

929
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:25,319
Speaker 4: like we we could have a better life. So yeah,

930
01:00:25,559 --> 01:00:32,479
Speaker 4: I am happy that we are doing this thing right now.

931
01:00:33,439 --> 01:00:37,119
Speaker 4: So it feels good to be like we're both on

932
01:00:37,159 --> 01:00:41,239
Speaker 4: the same piege. There is a possibility of something good happening.

933
01:00:41,559 --> 01:00:43,319
Speaker 4: It's different in our lives.

934
01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:52,879
Speaker 3: So when Zoe says that small talk makes her feel small,

935
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:57,559
Speaker 3: it's because she is yearning to feel that connection. And

936
01:00:57,799 --> 01:01:01,999
Speaker 3: connection does not happen with small talk. It happens with

937
01:01:02,199 --> 01:01:05,959
Speaker 3: meaningful conversation, with actually talking about the relationship between you,

938
01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:09,519
Speaker 3: and I'm glad she's uncomfortable with small talk, and I'm

939
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:11,519
Speaker 3: glad that she feels like she doesn't want that anymore

940
01:01:11,519 --> 01:01:13,999
Speaker 3: with her brother, because she really doesn't need to connect

941
01:01:13,999 --> 01:01:16,119
Speaker 3: with him, And it sounded like they took a good

942
01:01:16,239 --> 01:01:18,199
Speaker 3: first step in that direction.

943
01:01:19,279 --> 01:01:22,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad that she stood her ground and

944
01:01:22,199 --> 01:01:25,639
Speaker 1: was able to say to her brother, feelings are my superpower.

945
01:01:26,159 --> 01:01:28,839
Speaker 1: The fact that I can feel things is a strength

946
01:01:28,879 --> 01:01:33,879
Speaker 1: of mind, and to reframe that and to use that

947
01:01:34,319 --> 01:01:39,119
Speaker 1: as a starting point for these conversations. They didn't get

948
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:42,159
Speaker 1: to the money part of the conversation, and I think

949
01:01:42,159 --> 01:01:45,839
Speaker 1: that's okay because right now, what was important was they

950
01:01:45,879 --> 01:01:50,319
Speaker 1: started to acknowledge the reality of their childhoods. I think

951
01:01:50,359 --> 01:01:53,039
Speaker 1: will give them some common ground from which to have

952
01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:55,599
Speaker 1: these other conversations that bring them up to the present.

953
01:01:56,359 --> 01:01:58,879
Speaker 3: And it was so encouraging to hear that when she

954
01:01:58,959 --> 01:02:01,719
Speaker 3: spoke to her husband about going to therapy, she saw

955
01:02:01,759 --> 01:02:06,079
Speaker 3: that spark of excitement in him, because it's so important

956
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:08,159
Speaker 3: that he be on board with the work she has

957
01:02:08,199 --> 01:02:10,959
Speaker 3: to do. When somebody's been through a lot of trauma,

958
01:02:11,439 --> 01:02:13,399
Speaker 3: there's a lot of healing they need to do, and

959
01:02:13,439 --> 01:02:17,759
Speaker 3: it's wonderful that she can work on that with somebody

960
01:02:17,839 --> 01:02:20,639
Speaker 3: safe like her husband, who knows her, who loves her.

961
01:02:20,719 --> 01:02:23,319
Speaker 3: That will make that work easier for her to do,

962
01:02:23,439 --> 01:02:26,159
Speaker 3: and at the same time, she found her voice with

963
01:02:26,239 --> 01:02:29,359
Speaker 3: her brother as well, And I think that finding your

964
01:02:29,439 --> 01:02:33,159
Speaker 3: voice and then starting to use your voice is always

965
01:02:33,399 --> 01:02:35,519
Speaker 3: the first step when you're trying to heal.

966
01:02:39,959 --> 01:02:42,679
Speaker 1: Next week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost

967
01:02:42,759 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 1: of his last relationship as he tries to move on

968
01:02:45,639 --> 01:02:46,519
Speaker 1: with a new partner.

969
01:02:46,759 --> 01:02:48,039
Speaker 3: It's really hard for me to.

970
01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:52,799
Speaker 10: Open up to him because every time in the past

971
01:02:52,799 --> 01:02:54,959
Speaker 10: that I've opened up about my feelings, it's either ben

972
01:02:55,359 --> 01:02:58,039
Speaker 10: met with rejection or met with OCD. So it's really

973
01:02:58,039 --> 01:03:00,959
Speaker 10: hard for me to trust that I can have a

974
01:03:00,959 --> 01:03:02,239
Speaker 10: safe person to open up to.

975
01:03:02,759 --> 01:03:06,119
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

976
01:03:06,359 --> 01:03:08,759
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

977
01:03:08,759 --> 01:03:12,399
Speaker 1: miss any up and please help support Dear Therapists by

978
01:03:12,439 --> 01:03:14,639
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

979
01:03:14,679 --> 01:03:18,119
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

980
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:20,879
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

981
01:03:20,919 --> 01:03:26,279
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

982
01:03:26,599 --> 01:03:30,239
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

983
01:03:30,279 --> 01:03:34,439
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns

984
01:03:34,479 --> 01:03:37,999
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

985
01:03:38,039 --> 01:03:41,559
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

986
01:03:42,279 --> 01:03:44,559
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

987
01:03:44,839 --> 01:03:47,799
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.