1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two, Joey Arius was on trial for 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: the brutal murder of her boyfriend Travis Alexander. The defendant, 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Shelby Incursory to the Department of Corrections, where the rest 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: of her natural life with no possibility of girl. She 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: was found guilty, but sentenced to life in prison instead 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: of the death penalty. That trial and what came after 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: it changed Kurt Nermie. Nermie was the face of her defense, 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: vilified online. When I was done with the Arias trial, 10 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: I had serious questions about whether or not I wanted 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: to practice log and then he was diagnosed with cancer. 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: When cancer entered my life and I began to contemplate 13 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: my mortality, it became important to me to defend myself, 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: and I feel that that's what I did. In my book. 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 1: The book Trapped with Miss Arius was a tell all. 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: Nermie wrote about what it was like to deal with 17 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: Arius as a client, her demands, and he wrote the 18 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: lies that she and her family were willing to tell. 19 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: She loved him, she loved him to death. I'm talking 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: about none other than Jodi Arius and her lover turned 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: murder victim Travis Alexander. I still to this day have 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: the button that Travis Alexander's family would wear the court 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: every day or try to that they gave me. But 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: it's not over yet, believe it or not. Even after 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: Jodi aris is convicted of murdering her lover, stabbing him 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: twenty six times, leaving his dead body slumped over in 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: the shower, shooting him in the head. I remember the 28 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: shocking scenario that was proven by physical evidence unrefuted that 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: he was standing at his bathroom mirror her and blood 30 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: was dripping down and he saw himself dying. I remember 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: it like it was yesterday. For me, it's a memory. 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: For his family, it's never ending pain. I'm Nancy Grace. 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories, and joining me a very special guest, 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: Kirk Nurmi, Jodi Arias's lawyer at trial who tried to 35 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: save her. But right now he's ready to take on 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Jodi Arias, convicted killer and an explosive court battle. But 37 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: why also with me high profile l A psycho analyst 38 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall and of course Alan Duke joining me 39 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: from l A as well. Straight out to Kirk Nurmi 40 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: Kirk Nrmie. I watched you every single day of the trial. 41 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: Every day I will wonder what trick is he gonna 42 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: pull out of his sleeve now? And I would watch 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: your face when Arius would do one thing after the next, 44 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: like giving jailhouse interviews which would turn into fodder for 45 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: a potential jury pool to see. And it was just 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: one thing after the next, after the shooting a bird 47 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: at me during court, just just one antic after the next. 48 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: As if you didn't already have enough to deal with, 49 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: explain to me your current lawsuit. Well, Nancy, Uh, you know, 50 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: as is miss Arius's habit when men in her life 51 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: scorn her, and ultimately, to her thinking, we all scorn her. 52 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: She lashes out, and UM, it is not surprising to 53 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: me then, uh, that miss Arius is choosing to sue me, 54 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: claiming that I breached our confidentiality. That uh, to my thinking, 55 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: she waved by the numerous interviews she gave, the numerous 56 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: public silings that she offered to the world. Uh. And 57 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: I write my book about how in April two thousand eleven, 58 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: rather uh, that she made some threats to me to 59 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: follow her dictates or she would do what she could 60 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: to ruin my career, and this is merely evidence of that. 61 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: To slander my name a minute, Why would she why 62 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: would she kirtn hermy want to ruin your career? You 63 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,119 Speaker 1: try to save her at trial. Well, the thing is, though, 64 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: and that's ultimately a question for her and maybe for 65 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: for Bethany to analyze miss Arius. But um, keep in mind, uh, 66 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: miss Arius is in prison for life, and she's probably 67 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: not happy about that despite her the conduct that landed 68 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: her there. Joining me right now. Alexis terrez Chuck, investigative 69 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: reporter and journalists for Writer online dot com. Alexis, you 70 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: and I covered the area's murder trial together, as well 71 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: as the death penalty phase. For those who don't no 72 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: about Jodi Arius and her murder conviction, please explain what 73 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: happened to Travis Alexander when he tried to break up 74 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: with her, She plotted his murder, lured him in, you know, 75 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: went down to his house in Arizona, but but he 76 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: took her four days to get there. She stopped along 77 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: the way to buy a bunch of things she was 78 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: going to use, where she ended up slaughtering him. She 79 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: attacked him while he was in the shaite a minute, though, Alexis, 80 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, you're skipping some good stuff. Because 81 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: when she travels, you know, I don't know how many 82 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: hundreds of miles to go murder him. She did not 83 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: want to leave a trail, so she filled up gas cans, 84 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: according to the prosecution, and put them in her trunk 85 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: so she would not have to stop and be spotted 86 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: on gas station surveillance video. She would not have to 87 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: use a credit card, there would be no trace left behind. 88 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: So she filled up gyas hands stuck him in her 89 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: car so she would not be spotted en route on 90 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: this you know, hundreds and hundreds of miles trip to 91 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: get to Travis Alexander. Now, I don't recall that he 92 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: knew she was coming. What happened, Alexis, She showed up 93 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: at his house in the middle of the night, about 94 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: four o'clock in the morning. They'd had a couple of 95 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: phone calls. She had called him repeatedly, but once she 96 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: entered the area near his house, she turned off her 97 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: phone and did not turn it back on until hours 98 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: after she murdered him. To hide the fact that she 99 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: was even at his house. She was very devious. She 100 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: knew exactly what to do. She to try to cover 101 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: her trap, so she goes into the home and Kirt Nermie, 102 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: I'm not asking you fact questions because you may be 103 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: uncomfortable asked answering them with me. Is Kurt Nermi, Jodi 104 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: Arias's trial lawyer. He is the author of a book. 105 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: It's a pretty incredible book, Trapped with miss Arius. She 106 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: seemingly has taken umbrage with many passages within his book, 107 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: Trapped with Ms Arius in the lawsuit, In her lawsuit, 108 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: Kirk her lawsuit, Jodi Arius is suing somebody. Well, I 109 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: don't understand exactly the reason she is suing. Could you 110 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: break it down and regular people talk and tell me? 111 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: Kurt Nermi, Well, like I say, you know, that's ultimately 112 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: a question for her. But but vengeance against men who 113 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: do Jody wrong is something that is again, um quite common, 114 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: quite consistent with her pattern. And it's not surprising to 115 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: me that she is attacking me now, blaming me in 116 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: essence for her conviction and her the fact that she's 117 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: spending life in prison. That's to me what this is about. 118 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: To Dr Bethany Marshall, psycho Alan is joining me out 119 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: of l A. Dr Bethany, I went to jodi Arius prison. 120 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: I saw where she was held. I talked to the 121 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: female inmates. I ate the veggie loaf, the mystery meat loaf. 122 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't mad by the way, Um to try to 123 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: understand more about jodi Arius, because when you look at her, Bethany, 124 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: many people believe she's beautiful. I don't because I look 125 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: at her and I see a killer, and I mean, 126 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: that's the number one commandment, thou shall not kill. But 127 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: behind bar she's somewhat of a celebrity. She gets hundreds 128 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: of love letters. People put money in her commissary account. 129 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: She quote draws in quote in other words, traces other 130 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: drawings and then sells them. It's quite the life, Quite 131 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: the life. Dr Bethid explained, how is she still manipulity 132 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: when she's more highly manipulative. You know, I was thinking 133 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: about borderline personality disorder as you were talking to Kirk 134 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: and Alexis. She definitely has borderline personality disorder and I 135 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: actually was looking it up in the d s M five, 136 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders, 137 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: and one of the characteristics is intense, unstable and conflicted 138 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: close relationships marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with 139 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: real or imagined abandonment. Close relationships often viewed in extremes 140 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: of idealization and devaluation, alternating between overinvolvement and withdrawal. And 141 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: I can see that in her relationship with Travis Alexander, 142 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: that it started with the idealization and then it went 143 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: through to the de value waition. The idealization is when 144 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: he was dating her, right when they were together, when 145 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: they were going out, and then do you remember that 146 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: she found out that he was planning a vacation with 147 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: another woman. Then it went from the idealization to the devaluation, 148 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: and that's when she started to plot her revenge. You know, 149 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: not only was she preoccupied with killing him, but she 150 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: was absolutely obsessed with him. And I think that Jodi 151 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Arias idealizes and devalues every man in her life. And 152 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure KIRKNRMI is no different than any other man 153 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: who has crossed her path. That she thought that he 154 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: was a god when he was defending her. But now 155 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: that she's behind bars and she hasn't gotten exactly what 156 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: she wants, She's going to start to plot and plan 157 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: her revenge against Kirk as well. It's no different. Her 158 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: attachment style is the same with every single man in 159 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: her life. Fortunately, she's behind bars, so she can't really 160 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: do anything to Kirk, but she's trying to do everything 161 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: she can. Kurt Nermie Jodi Arias trial lawyer with us. Now, Kurt, 162 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: what are her allegations against you specifically, Well, there's numerous, 163 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: and they all she claims that some of the things 164 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: that I said in the book were not true, and 165 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: she claims that they are violations of attorney client privilege. 166 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: And there's numerous allegations, uh that she makes. And it's 167 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: been a while since I've read the complaint because quite frankly, 168 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: I don't let Jodi Arias sink into my world, sink 169 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: into my life. I look forward though, to defending each 170 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: and everyone in coordinay. As a matter of fact, after 171 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: the trial, you we're diagnosed with cancer and you firmly 172 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: believe it is connected to Jodi Arias. I do um 173 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: keep in mind that you know this was a client 174 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: that I did not want, that I tried to divest 175 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: myself from back in two thousand eleven and was not 176 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: able to do so until the spring of two thousand fifteen, 177 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,119 Speaker 1: and I believe the stress of it all, everything involved 178 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: trying to keep her off death row, did lead to 179 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: cancer infesting my body in that A few months later, 180 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: you know, the trial of Jodi Arius and the murder 181 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: of Travis Alexander just captivated the whole country. Everyone was 182 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: watching the trial. It's had everything people I want to see. 183 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: I guess, violence, death, sex, scandal, but there were so 184 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: many aspects of it that went so much deeper. For instance, 185 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: two Alexis, Tres Chuck Alexis. The fact that they were 186 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: part of the Mormon religion seemed to uh, it was 187 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: like a curiosity to so many people. Why is that? 188 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: I think it's because the Mormon religion is not as 189 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: familiar to people across the country as as other religion, 190 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: the Christian entity, and so people tend to have thought 191 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: of it as a cult, and so they saw that 192 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: this there was this what many people called, you know, 193 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: ritualistic murder, which it wasn't. It was just Jody going 194 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: crazy and murdering somebody, and they tied it into this church. 195 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: But also because there were visual images of it. When 196 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: Jody met Travis, he was a very well respected member 197 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: of the church, and he brought her into the church 198 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: and she was baptized and became a member of the church. 199 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: So there was a photograph of her baptism, and so 200 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: when people have visual images of things they can see, 201 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: it makes it so much more compelling. And then she 202 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: dragged in the fact that after she got baptized, I 203 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 1: think she said that she and Travis had sex. And 204 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what kind of sex I'm allowed to 205 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: say on your show, So let's just say not the 206 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: regular sex and still considered sodomy go ahead. So so 207 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: it just made it so much more salacious. In Travis 208 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: was such an upstanding member of this church and people 209 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: loved him, and he was such a good person, and 210 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: so she joined the church only because of him. And 211 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: in fact, after she was convicted, church kicked her out, 212 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: excommunicated her and said they did not want her in. 213 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: You know another thing that is always interesting to me, 214 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall, and I don't know what it means, 215 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: is she immediately gave all of his friends the skith. 216 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: They were all creeped out by Jeddi Aris. I mean, 217 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: even when they first met her, they're like, man, get 218 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: rid of her. Why what was it about her? It 219 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: was just an instinct. They all hated her. M hmm, Well, 220 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about borderline personality disorder. She had a 221 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: severe personality disorder. Nancy and most women who kill do 222 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: have borderline personality disorder. And one of the things you 223 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: notice with borderlines is that when you meet them there 224 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: intensely idealizing, like I was talking about, they treat you 225 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: like you're so special. They put her on a pedestal, 226 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: and they're kind of strangely flirtatious with everybody. It's the 227 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: flirtation is a type of manipulation. They're trying to be 228 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: at the center of everybody's universe, men, women, everybody in 229 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: their path. And so I think everybody sensed this. And 230 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: the fact that you were asking about the Mormon religion, 231 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: the Mormon faith, Um, Travis Alexander was a very good 232 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: person and he was beloved by his roommates and his church. 233 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: And there's really this contrast between good and evil. You know, 234 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: there's this Mormon community and then there's this woman who 235 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: inserts herself into his life ingratiates herself. It's like the 236 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: fox got into the henhouse somehow, don't you think, Um, 237 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: you know. And the other thing about skiming people out. 238 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: I remember some photograph where she was sitting with him 239 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: and his friends, and I think she either had her 240 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: feet on his lap or his her head on his lap. 241 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: But I had a sort of a strange sexual quality. 242 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: So here's this benign gathering of friends and she's acting 243 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: kind of sexual in front of all of them. And 244 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure she did that continuously and they thought that 245 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: was really weird. Let me pause and thank our partners 246 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: that are making our program possible today as we investigate 247 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: behind Bars Jodi Arius convicted killers life and her lawsuit 248 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: because the convicted killer Jodi Arius is now targeting the 249 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: man who once stood by her side that Mini credit 250 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: with saving her from the death penalty. She was on 251 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: trial for her lover's death, and now she has told 252 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: the world that she is out for blood again, but 253 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: this time on her own. Lawyer Kurt Nermi is with us, 254 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: and let me thank our partner for making this possible. 255 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: It is lenk a k C dot com. 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Link a k 284 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: C dot com code Nancy to Kirknerman Jodi Arias, former 285 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: lawyer that many credit with saving her from the death penalty. 286 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: Your book, Trapped with Miss Arias. Trapped with Jodi Arias 287 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: UM made a lot of waves. What is the single 288 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: thing in there that apparently has made convicted killer Jodi 289 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: Arias the most angry? Well, again, that might be a 290 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: question for her, but she seems to take umbrage with 291 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: the fact that, uh, you know, back in say, two 292 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: thousand eleven, Um, she characterized me, to my thinking as 293 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: her boyfriend. Um, it was something that is, wait, how'd 294 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: your wife feel about that? Well, what what goes on 295 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: in Jody's head isn't necessarily in um, consistent with reality. 296 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: And that was her view of me, not my view 297 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: of her or anyone else's view of the entire situation. 298 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: But it was Jody, and that's how I believe it was. 299 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: And and Bethany talked about the I'm not a psychologist, 300 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: but Bethany talked about that idealization and then that um 301 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: component of detachment and devaluing, And um, I think that's 302 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: kind of consistent with what I said in the book 303 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: in terms of how she treated me, because remember in 304 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, Uh, she bagged through the force of 305 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: two lawyers and what have you to say, Kirk needs 306 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: to be on my case, he needs to be my lawyer. 307 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: And now this how surprised were you when you found 308 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: out that she was actually suing you? Not at all, 309 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: because you know, I said the other day, you know, 310 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: if I'm the world's leading expert on anything, it's Jody Arias. 311 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: And this sort of action, this sort of vengeance on 312 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: her part, is not unsurprising to me at all. It 313 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: is consistent with a pattern of men in her life 314 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, um, you know Mr Alexander suffered the most 315 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: in that regard. Now, another thing that she claims as 316 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: um that you, Kurt nermy had a quote unprofessional and 317 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: prurient interest in the sex nature of her case. Well, 318 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: I mean her case was all about sex. Every kind 319 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: of sex you can think of, sex, toys, sex aid, 320 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: semi public sex, sex, in the woods, blah blah blah. 321 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: In fact, the day of Travis Alexander's murder, she shows 322 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: up and they have a set a marathon day of 323 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: sex all old day, and at the end of it 324 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: she finds out he's still going to I think it 325 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: was keen kin with another woman that he had already 326 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: invited to go on a trip with him, and instead 327 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: of packing her bag and huffing out like most people 328 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 1: would do and never caught talking to him again, he 329 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: ends up dead shots stabbed twenty nine times, a shot 330 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: with the gun, slumped over, and left to rot in 331 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: his shower stall. That's what happened. So, Kurt, are you 332 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: surprised that she behind bars is telling people that you 333 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: had a quote prurient interest in her sex life. I mean, 334 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: when you try to handle the case, you can't help 335 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 1: it here about her sex life. That's exactly right, and 336 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise me. It's just a mechanism for her 337 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: to attack me and try to embarrass me. And we've 338 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: seen that habit, if you will, with others other men 339 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: in her life as well, right, we consistently see that 340 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: throughout her life. Bethany Um, you know it did a 341 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: good job, I think of of stating some of the 342 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: realities that we see with miss areas. Guys, I am 343 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: talking to Kirk Nurmi, the trial lawyer for Jodi Arius, 344 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: now behind bars for the murder, the brutal murder of 345 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: Travis sal and Sander with me Alexis tres Chuck, investigative 346 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: reporter for Radar Online dot Com. Dr Bethany Marshall, ELI psychoanalyst, 347 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: and Alan Duke also joining me to you, Alexis tres Chuck, 348 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: When you look back on the evidence at trial, was 349 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: there any way to separate Jodi Arius from sex that 350 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: seemed to be her hold on Travis. Not only was 351 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: it her hold on Travis, it was everything in her life. 352 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: The entire trial was she left him early, she moved 353 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: in with a boyfriend, She lived with him for a 354 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: little while, she moved out, she moved in with the 355 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: next boyfriend. Everything in her life was about sex, including 356 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: she's which I had said earlier, The very first time 357 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: she gets baptized, she and Travis have sex after it. 358 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: The recordings that she said were you showed that Travis 359 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: was obsessed with sex. Were her talking about how much 360 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: she wanted him to tie her up and tie her 361 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: to a tree, and she said, oh, it's so debasing. 362 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: I like it there. Her entire relationship with Travis was 363 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: based on sex. And when he decided he didn't want 364 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: to have it with her anymore because she was crazy, 365 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: that's when she decided to kill him. You know, I 366 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: left out the phone sex, uh and the photos. Oh yes, 367 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: speaking of photos, Dr Bethany Marshall, A major part of 368 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: the trial, I thought was when a digital camera was 369 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: discovered and it was full of shots sex shots, including 370 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: areas naked, and they were taken just before he's killed, 371 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: in the hours before his death. Do you recall that, Nancy, 372 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: I do. I was actually just about to mention that 373 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: that she photographed everything, so the marathon sex session just 374 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: before she stabbed him twenty nine times, she continually photographed 375 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: both of them throughout that day. She had many, many 376 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: pictures of the two of them having sex. And Alexis 377 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: was describing beautifully this history of sexualization of all of 378 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: her relationships. And what women with borderline personality do is 379 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: they have what we call in my field, merger fantasies. 380 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: They want to be one with their love objects. They 381 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: want to reduce the distance between them and the other person, 382 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: and then they use sex to manipulate they they use 383 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: sex to create some kind of excitement to hold onto 384 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: the other person. So sex becomes the glue that holds 385 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: the relationship together. And so so you have the idealization 386 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: and then the devaluation that I talked about, but you 387 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: also have cleaning and then rejecting behavior. This is the 388 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: hallmark of personality disorders that when they meet somebody, they 389 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: want to have sex right away. They want to marry 390 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: that person right away, they want to move in. That 391 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: person becomes their whole life. And the minute they feel 392 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: the tiniest, littlest in beans ist little bit of rejection, 393 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 1: then they move in for the kill. That is the 394 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: hallmark of a personality disorder is clinging, merging, and then 395 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: at the first signe of rejection moving in to destroy 396 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: and attack the love object. If you just if you 397 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: understand nothing else about personality disorders, if you just hold 398 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: on to that, it really tells you a lot about 399 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: human nature. And for your listeners who are listening into 400 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: this show, people who are dating, when you meet somebody 401 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: who wants to just move in on you right away, 402 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: wants to have sex right away wants to marry you. 403 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: I mean, all of a sudden, they put you on 404 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: a pedestal and you are their whole entire world. You're 405 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: going to get knocked off that pedestal in a very 406 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: rude way, because the idealization always leads to de valuation. 407 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: There their opposite sides of the same coin in terms 408 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: of how these people attach. Take a listen to what 409 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: the jury heard. Would you agree that you're the person 410 00:25:53,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: who actually slid Mr Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes? 411 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed 412 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: him in the upper torso yes, And you're doing all 413 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: of us too, according to your version of events, you're 414 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: doing to this is individual after you have already shot him, right, Yes, correct? 415 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: I believe so. Well. No, do you remember previously talking 416 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: to us about how he was coming at you and 417 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: he was this horrible man with his mean face. Do 418 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: you remember telling me that he isn't I didn't say 419 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: he was bold? Okay, thank you for correcting me. But 420 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: do you remember telling us that he was a mean man? 421 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: Not today? Well, previously previously you did say that he 422 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: was immediately correct? I think I did? Yes, And on 423 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: this particular occasion, you told us that he was cursing 424 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: at you, right, and that he threw you down right, Yes, 425 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: that he chased you down right. Yes, And this is 426 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: the individual that you shot first, right, he had not 427 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: if I shot him and just feel d off the 428 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: gun went off, right, you can at least acknowledge. Yes, 429 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: that's something that you did here. Yes with me? Is 430 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: kirk Nermi, the trial lawyer for now infamous killer Jodi Arias, 431 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: who is simmering behind bars, drawing her quote art, reading 432 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: her love letters, reading books, chill axing, and watching cable TV. 433 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: Kirk Nermy, how did you keep a straight face when 434 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: the jury saw pictures of your client buck naked on 435 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander's bid in the hours right before he was murdered. 436 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: Well it was evidence, you know, and this is in 437 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: the courtroom is a bit of a theater, and you 438 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: present evidence. We talked a little bit earlier about you know, 439 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: the sexual aspects of this case. Um, there was there 440 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: was saturated. It was just another piece of evidence, and 441 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: unlike miss Arius claims, I had no obsession with it. 442 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: It was evidence like any other. Joining me. Dr Bethany Marshall, 443 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: l A. Psychoanalyst Alexis to Restuck writer online dot Com 444 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: and kirk Nermi, Jodi Arius trial lawyer who many credit 445 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: with saving her from death row. It's legal war. Kirk Nermie, 446 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: her former lawyer, ready to go to court to fight 447 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: Jodi Arius in an exploding court battle. So kirk Nermi, 448 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: explain to me what you hope to gain out of 449 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: going to court. Well, I hope to a the opportunity 450 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: I guess to let people know what I really think 451 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: and what I really feel. I think a lot of 452 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: people and this is part of the reason I wrote 453 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: traffics miss Arius is a lot of people felt like 454 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: I supported her, like I believed her story, like I 455 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: was a fanomous Arius what have you? Because they saw 456 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: that visualization in court when the reality was I didn't 457 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: get to pick my client. I was there to do 458 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: a job. I had a job to do. I stood 459 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: up to the world to save her life. I stood 460 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: up to cancer to save mine, and now I'm more 461 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: than willing to stand up to miss Arius to make 462 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: sure the world understands what I truly feel. I've got 463 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: a question for you, kurtin Army. I would never have 464 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: known that you felt this way during the trial, explain 465 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: to those listening now, how you tried to get off 466 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: the case, what you did to try to get out 467 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: of representing Jodi Arias, and how you how you stealed 468 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: your self to go in there and fight the good 469 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: fight for her. You know, in two thousand or two 470 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: thousand nine, when I was assigned the case Nancy, I 471 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: was working at the Public Defender's Office and didn't have 472 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: a choice in who my client was and really didn't 473 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: know anything about her UM and in by the time 474 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven rolled around, I was ready to leave 475 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: the Public Defender's office, ready to leave definitely work. And 476 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: that is when I intended to leave miss Arius behind. 477 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: She objected to that, and there was a series of 478 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: litigation that ended in April of two thousand eleven UM 479 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: where my emotions to withdraw were denied. That happened again 480 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand and in that fall I was when 481 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: the Public Defender's Office was allowed to withdraw. I moved 482 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: to withdraw myself again. There was a plethora of motions 483 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: to withdraw that we're all denied. Once that happened. Ultimately, 484 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: then you ask how I could do what I had 485 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: to do is because I was ordered by the court 486 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: to do it. And as a defense attorney, I believe 487 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: in the Constitution, in the sixth Amendment, and then every person, 488 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: even miss Arius, has a right to a fair trial 489 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: and a vigorous defense. And on a personal level, beyond that, UM, 490 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: I am a person who does not believe in the 491 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: death penalty. So uh, goal number one of the death 492 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: penalty attorney being saving the client's life was certainly something 493 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: that on a personal level I felt compelled to do 494 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: with me. Is kirk Nermi high profile A lawyer that 495 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: represented Jodi Arius at trial. Dr Bethany Marshall L a psychoanalyst. 496 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany I guarantee you that Jodi Arias to this 497 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: day thinks that she's the victim behind bars. Absolutely she does. 498 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: And when kirk Nermi was saying that his motion to 499 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: withdraw was denied, Travis Alexander's motion to withdraw is denied 500 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: to No man is allowed to withdraw from Jodi Arias 501 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: is life. And um, I keep going back to the 502 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: idea of borderline personality disorder. Women with this disorder are 503 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: very paranoid. They do not see themselves as the architect 504 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: or the generator of their own experience. They think that 505 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: everybody else is out to get them. They feel wronged 506 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: by society. And I wouldn't be surprised if this action 507 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: against Kirk Nurmi not only does it parallel her actions 508 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: against Travis Alexander, but it generates excitement in her life. 509 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: She gets to get away from the jail, she gets 510 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: to be in the limelight. She gets attention all over again. 511 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: And this is what Jodi Arias is all about. She's 512 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: about herself. She's about being in the limelight. And this 513 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: and one more time, it's at another man's expense. To 514 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: Alexis stret Check, writer online dot Com, Dr Bethany Marshall, 515 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: and Kirk Nurmi, author of Trapped with miss Arius Jodi 516 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: Arius Kirk, I wish you the very very best, Frank Nay. 517 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure talking with you today as always. 518 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: And you know another thing, Kirk, I just really admire 519 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: your fight against cancer and I do too. God bless you, 520 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: God bless you, and stay strong friend. Thank you. It 521 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: really came, it really came into a tough, a tough 522 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: time after all that, you know, and to think there 523 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: were moments when I thought do I really wanted to 524 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: engage in this fight. What's the point. What has my 525 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: life become? And um, I'm glad I did. I'm glad 526 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm in a new place. But yeah, it was it 527 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: was a real struggle because again, um, how this trial 528 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: affect in my life is just uh ineasurable, I guess, 529 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: and destroyed my life. How did it destroy your life? 530 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: How did it affect you? Well, I think more than 531 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: anything apart from you know, I believe that that cancer 532 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: when I came into my life, I think it took 533 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: my identity. Um. I think that when throughout the course 534 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: of the trial and even now when I go somewhere 535 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: and I say my name is it's what the story, 536 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: whatever it is. Um, there's a fear that people will 537 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: associate me with her and associate that, uh, that correlation 538 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: that I talked about earlier, that um, that they think 539 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: that I believe in her and what she did, in 540 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: the righteousness of what she did, or what have you 541 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: to that association. I said in a recent interview that 542 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 1: when I die, if it was covered on the news, 543 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: it will be because because I was jod Yearous's lawyer, 544 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: I get your cancer, and my legacy would probably be 545 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: as miserious his lawyers. So yes, it's that to me 546 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: a great deal, you know, Kurtner, me, that's not how 547 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: I see you at all. And I'm very privileged to 548 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: count you as a friend and colleague. And I want 549 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: to thank you for being with me and all of 550 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: us listening now. Kurt nermy author of Trapped with miss Arius. 551 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: It's available on Amazon dot com. Thank you, friend. I 552 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: want to thank our partner making today's program possible, making 553 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: it possible for you to join us today. It's legal Zoom. 554 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: And all you business owners know how important it is 555 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 1: to keep moving forward. But so many times issues pop 556 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: up to take your time and focus away from growing 557 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: your business. When it comes to with things like reviewing contracts, 558 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: registering trademarks, staying current on fees and permits, contracts, hiring issues. 559 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot com simplifies your life. It was created 560 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: sixteen years ago by the very brightest minds and long technology. 561 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: And like I always say, when you don't know a horse, 562 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: look at his track record. Legal Zoom has already helped 563 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: over two million business owners easily affordably navigate the legal 564 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: system with confidence. Because you know what, you don't have 565 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: to wait cup at three am and think, oh my stars, 566 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: billable hours stacking up behind my back by your law firm. 567 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: Legal Zoom is not a law firm. Instead, you get 568 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: the advice you need to answer your business questions at 569 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: fixed rates through legal zooms nationwide network of independent lawyers. 570 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: Take pressure off yourself. Go to legal zoom dot com 571 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: now take care of business before the year winds down. 572 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: Special savings. Enter code Nancy in a n C Wyatt 573 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: the referral box to check out Code Nancy equals special 574 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: savings only at legal zoom dot com. Legal Zoom thank 575 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: you for what you do for American business owners, and 576 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: thank you for being our partner today. And now we 577 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: travel to North Carolina and the very latest and the 578 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: story of a missing girl that we covered. Just a beautiful, 579 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: beautiful girl, Ashanti Billy, a teen girl of nineteen. She 580 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: disappeared in September en route to work at Salmich Shop 581 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: on joint expeditionary based Little Creek Fort Story in Norfolk, Virginia. 582 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: Take a listen to a shanty Billy's mother when a 583 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 1: shanty goes missing. Everyone, please, I'm begging everybody, please pray 584 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 1: for my baby. Please please pray for a shanty billy 585 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 1: by Dollard. My baby, she's not everything's prey for Erey. 586 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: My baby home today. Everyone, please share anyone you know 587 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: help me bring my baby a shanty home. Please? How 588 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: did this girl with her whole wife in front of 589 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: her disappear? Then we find out hundreds of miles away 590 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: her body is found near a church. Right now a 591 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: crack in the case, joining me, Bobby Maxwell, crime story 592 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: in the case. What happened? Yes, Nancy a lot on 593 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: forty five year old Eric Brown who actually they did 594 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: a lot of investigative work on this and finally, almost 595 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: two months later, they've come up with so much. There 596 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: was DNA from him on a shanty billy, um and 597 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: the clothing and such and also um the place where 598 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: she was found was three hundred yards from his childhood home. Uh. 599 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: He had cell phone data doing Internet searches of the 600 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: crime even before Ashanti's body was found, and apparently it 601 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: was homeless. Even though he was a retired twenty one 602 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: year old navy vet, he spent a lot of time 603 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: at that naval base, including multiple times in the Blimpy 604 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: subshop where Ashanti worked straight out to Cheryl McCullum, Director 605 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: of the Coal Case Institute, crime scene expert Cheryl McCullum, 606 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: when you and I first started bring a Shanty Billy's case, 607 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: this is so close to what you were saying. Analyze 608 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: what we know now, Cheryl McCullum, Well, again, Nancy, we 609 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: all talked about it that day, but that church was 610 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,320 Speaker 1: very critical to me because where somebody chooses to dump 611 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: a body tells a lot about the perpetrator. And that 612 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: particular church, being you know, so many hundreds of miles 613 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: away from where she was kidnapped, told me that he 614 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: absolutely knew that area and knew that place. And of 615 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: course we know now that not only was it, you know, 616 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: three hundred yards from his childhood home, that he actually 617 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: went to vacation Bible school. I mean, you can look 618 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,919 Speaker 1: and I'll give you anecdotal examples of what you know statistically. 619 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean, look at Top Mom Casey Anthony Kelly's body 620 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: was found wrapped in trash bags like she was trash 621 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: and thrown into a swampy wooded area which was right 622 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: behind the elementary school where Top Mom went. In fact, 623 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: where the body was was the spot where she and 624 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: her friends would hang out in smart when they were 625 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: kids and hide out. I mean, look at Scott Peterson. 626 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: Lazy Peterson's body was found. It washed up at San 627 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: Francisco Bay. He was fishing there. That was one of 628 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: his fishing holes. I mean it goes on and on. 629 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean look at gay Cy. He he had bodies 630 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: in the crawl space of his home. So what you're saying, 631 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: and what I'm trying to say is it's very significant 632 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: where a body is found. It's human nature. They want 633 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: to be somewhere that they are comfortable. They're gonna spend 634 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of time there, so they want to 635 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: be sure that they're not gonna be seen. They know 636 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: the way to get in, they know the way to 637 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: get out, they know that nobody's gonna be around there. 638 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: They picked it deliberately. So again it gives you insight 639 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: to that person. A forty five year old navy veteran 640 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: now being held in the brutal murder of a young girl, 641 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: Ashanti Billy Cheryl McCullum. What do you make of him, 642 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: the alleged purp Well, I mean, he clearly was stalking her, 643 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: he knew her, He went there every day. Um, he 644 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: engaged with her, conversation. He was inappropriate with her, so 645 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: he probably was fixated on her, and he made his 646 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: mind up that he was going to have her one 647 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: way or the other, and the only way that he 648 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,800 Speaker 1: could have her was to kidnap her and forced himself 649 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: on her, which it appears is exactly what he did. 650 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: We know her pants were in the car and they 651 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: had mud on them, so that would tell me that 652 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: he disrobed her at the scene and took the pants 653 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: with him, which would not be unusual. Um. They haven't 654 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: told us a manner of death that I know so far, 655 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: but I do know that they said that she was 656 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: basically battered, so again a lot of rage from him. Um. 657 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: He lived on and off that base, a different buildings, 658 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: so yes, he was homeless, but he certainly knew his 659 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: way around there. He's admitted to being there the day 660 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: that she went missing, but of course claims he blacked 661 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,959 Speaker 1: out and didn't know whether or not a hurt, which 662 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: is not going to be an excuse that holds up 663 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 1: in any way to Dr Bethany Marshall l a psychoanalyst. 664 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, give me shrink it. What tell me what 665 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: you think of this? Um? Psychologically. Well. I agree with 666 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: everything Cheryl said. She described it so beautifully. What I 667 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 1: can add is the fact that he was homeless means 668 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: he's very low functioning, maybe even mentally ill um So 669 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: he might have killed her because he didn't know what 670 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 1: else to do with her. And the fact that her 671 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,720 Speaker 1: body was so badly battered when she tried to resist 672 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: to sexual advances, he probably mistook it as rejection and 673 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 1: flew into a rage and battered her. And then once 674 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: he battered her so badly, he didn't know what else 675 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: to do, so then he killed her. I agree with 676 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. He went to a place that was very 677 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: familiar to him, the back of the church where he 678 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: went to vacation Bible school, but also it's near where 679 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: his mother lives. And these criminals, they they they dumped 680 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: the body. The dump site is usually a familiar place, 681 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: but it's often a place where they grew up and 682 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: they were nurtured by their own mothers. You know, when 683 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: criminals get out of jail, or when they when they 684 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: escape jail, you know how they always go back to 685 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: where their mothers are. They have this strange fixation that 686 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: that's where they want to be. I think obviously he 687 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: was stalking her. According to one customer at the Blimpi 688 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: subway shop, he had made some crude sexual comments to her. 689 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: And we know that men who stalk um, they become 690 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: preoccupied with the victim. But not only are they preoccupied 691 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,719 Speaker 1: with gaining proximity to the victim, they're preoccupied with the 692 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: idea that they've been rejected by the victim. That's why 693 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: they punished the victims. So he was both admiring and 694 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: desirous of getting close to her and having sex with her, 695 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,839 Speaker 1: but he was enraged at her for having rejected him, 696 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: and I think that's really the motivation behind this crime. Again, 697 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 1: here is Ashanti Bili's mom, just after her daughter's body 698 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: was found. Hi. My name is Brandy Billy. I'm the 699 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: mom of Ashanti Marcala Billy. As many of you know, 700 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 1: we were searching for a dog because she was missing 701 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: since September eight. I'm sure most of you have already 702 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: heard that her body was located in Charlotte, North Carolina. 703 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you to everyone that 704 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: helped us spread the word that she was missing, everyone 705 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: that had a tip, everyone that shared the posted sent 706 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: their prayers. Just thank you that meant a lot to 707 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,959 Speaker 1: us as we were searching for her, To her father 708 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 1: and I and her loved ones. Thank you for all 709 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,360 Speaker 1: the community support we received in the Hampton Roads, Virginia, 710 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: bat Chesapeake, Norfolk area, even to our family and friends 711 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: and the d m V where we're from. Thank you 712 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: those far and why across the country. Thank you. Ashanti's 713 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: life was taken from her, but her spirit wasn't taken 714 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: from us at all. We're gonna continue to live the 715 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: life that she would have wanted us to live, as 716 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: well as spreading her legacy as we move forward. Our 717 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: plans are set up a scholarship in her name with 718 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: the Art Institute of a Jaian Beach for Culinary Arts. 719 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,439 Speaker 1: Will also be subforming a nonprofit organization to help other 720 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: families of missing loved ones, to provide guidance for them, 721 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: help and assistance for them to bring the loved ones home. 722 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: There has to be something for adults when they go missing. 723 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: You have alerts for a ten under, you have alerts 724 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: for sixty five and older. What we don't have is 725 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: something for anyone in the middle. I whole hardly believe 726 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: that had there been some type of alert that was 727 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: able to be put out for her. She may have 728 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: been coming home with us of her own free will, 729 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: but she's still coming home with us. We're taking our 730 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: baby home where she can rest in peace with her 731 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: loved ones. So again I just want to say thank you, 732 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you all and bless you all. Thank 733 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: you for your prayers. They meant the world to her 734 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: father and I, her family, her friends, and her loved ones. 735 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: So just please continue to use social media in the 736 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 1: positive way because that's what we joined to. Everything we 737 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: saw us positive. So thank you, We love you, and 738 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: the shock he loves you. Thank you do. Bobby Maxwell. 739 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, Bobby how do authorities believe the 740 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: murder took place? Well, they believe that he actually was 741 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: in that area of the bloom By shop and they 742 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: saw her car circling the restaurant when she was going 743 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,840 Speaker 1: to work that morning and then um, some time between 744 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: her going to that workplace and thirty minutes when they 745 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: saw the car leaving, um, Eric Brown abducted, abducted her 746 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: and left the base. That's where they're trying to fill 747 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: in the hole. So Cheryl McCullum, when I was in 748 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: law school, trying to put myself through law school with 749 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: I think at one time I was working three jobs. 750 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: Why was it a sandwich shop? And I remember being 751 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: there at night, all by myself in a strip mall um, 752 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, just sitting there studying my law books, waiting 753 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: for a customer to come in. And you know, you 754 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: look back on at Sheryl and it's so stupid, but 755 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,760 Speaker 1: yet it's still happening every day, a single person alone, 756 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: like in a blimp ear where I was z sandwich shop. 757 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: It just it and it was she was just, you know, 758 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: like easy pickings for this guy. She was easy pickings. 759 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you something else. She probably also felt 760 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: very comfortable being on a military base and she knew 761 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: him so, Nancy, even though he had been inappropriate, even 762 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: though he was homeless, she saw him every day. So 763 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 1: even though she might have thought when he's a little crazy, 764 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: or he's homeless or whatever, she thought he was probably 765 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: harmless for the most part because there was familiarity to 766 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: the right. Now. Our prayers and thoughts with Ashaunty Billy's 767 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,800 Speaker 1: family to Bobby Maxwell, Sheryl McCollum, and Dr Bethany Marshall. 768 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: Thank you, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,