Speaker 1: UM. So we've we've had some discussions on the topic
Speaker 1: of if if, and you know what that has, you
Speaker 1: know what impact that has on on on a career,
Speaker 1: and you know, if certain things had happened, how wold
Speaker 1: things have potentially turned out. I know that you're a
Speaker 1: firm believer in the fact that at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, the record book is what's written down on
Speaker 1: paper and not what could have happened if something else
Speaker 1: had not happened. And I think that that's very true
Speaker 1: for certain golfers. I mean, you know, if we talk
Speaker 1: about Tiger Woods, UM, you know, if he had one,
Speaker 1: if he had not had the injuries he'd had and
Speaker 1: any of the indiscretions, he may have gone on to
Speaker 1: in twenty plus majors, but as the record stands, he's
Speaker 1: got fifteen. So on that point, UM, And one of
Speaker 1: the IF talking points that I thought we should cover
Speaker 1: was you had a very special relationship with Hogan. UM.
Speaker 1: I think from what from what I understand, he wasn't
Speaker 1: the most friendly or inviting human being around. UM. So
Speaker 1: if you had any of his affection, it was it
Speaker 1: was it was rare. And I know you've got some
Speaker 1: stories about that. UM. But the first talking point I
Speaker 1: want to talk about was, like I said, Hogan was
Speaker 1: was was was hard to get through too. And his
Speaker 1: he had started the bed Hogan Equipment Company, and he
Speaker 1: had made an offer to you to to endorse and
Speaker 1: play his his his his clubs and equipment, and you
Speaker 1: turned that down at a time where you needed a
Speaker 1: bit more money. But in hindsight that often may have
Speaker 1: had bigger impacts on your game. And if you had
Speaker 1: signed with Hogan, what do you think would have happened. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, James, let's uh, but a little bit
Speaker 1: more emphasis on ifs. You know people that have been
Speaker 1: married and are unhappy and they had had a girlfriend
Speaker 1: to choose from, and they say, if only I'd chosen
Speaker 1: the other girl, I'd be happy today. Businesses, if I
Speaker 1: had made the right decision, I wouldn't have lost all
Speaker 1: this abount of money, if I had taken the right
Speaker 1: club at the twelfth Hold of Augusta. As we know
Speaker 1: that hold has prevented a lot of people from winning.
Speaker 1: If that, if it's you know, if it's the dreaded word,
Speaker 1: because it's the bottom line in any business accounts. You
Speaker 1: can't go along and tell me what a great business
Speaker 1: you had. If I've done that, you look at it.
Speaker 1: It's the bottom line in life. And talking about Ben Hogan,
Speaker 1: who I sincerely believe, I mean I played with a
Speaker 1: man like Tommy Armore, which is almost I don't know
Speaker 1: seventy years ago, played with Gene Sarah's and sat with
Speaker 1: Bobby Jones. Many of the great players of the past
Speaker 1: that are young people today don't realize quite how great
Speaker 1: they were. But be that as it may, ben Hogan,
Speaker 1: having watched him and played with him, and watching him
Speaker 1: use the lazy equipment and LaSIE ball spike marks on
Speaker 1: the green fairway mower is not good green mowers, bunk
Speaker 1: is not raped like they are today, no prize money.
Speaker 1: Traveling by car and watching him play golf, I never
Speaker 1: saw anybody that could hit the ball like he did.
Speaker 1: It was absolutely remarkable. He knew more about the swing
Speaker 1: than anybody I'd ever met in my life. I met
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are very knowledgeable, but he's
Speaker 1: the only man I met that knows a swing from
Speaker 1: A to Z A lot, no from A to yuh.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna come back to the the ifs, but
Speaker 1: it's important to make you understand how great he was.
Speaker 1: I hear people talking about the swing, and I hear
Speaker 1: so much nonsense about the swing. It's quite unbelievable. But
Speaker 1: now take Hogan. He wins nine major championships in his career,
Speaker 1: but the war breaks out and he and Sam Snead
Speaker 1: and a host of others have got to go to war.
Speaker 1: So Hogan now doesn't play for five years and majors
Speaker 1: and then comes back and has the most dreadful accident,
Speaker 1: a life threatening accident, and he basically doesn't play in
Speaker 1: a major championship, uh, approximately thirty two, and he's pride,
Speaker 1: and he's pride. Now everybody, you know, we said, if
Speaker 1: only he never had that accident. Well, it's unfortunate that
Speaker 1: he had the accident, but it will always be remembered
Speaker 1: that he won nine majors. A lot of people won't
Speaker 1: even know that he went to war. Imagine telling Tiger
Speaker 1: Woods that he had to go to war. Would he
Speaker 1: had one x amount of majors? And you know, you
Speaker 1: can't imagine that. So all these ifs, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you look at the Grand Slam, Sam sneed, he if
Speaker 1: only he'd made a part, if only he had made
Speaker 1: a bogey in Pennsylvania to win the US Open. They
Speaker 1: didn't have scoreboards in those days like now, so he
Speaker 1: thought he need at a birdie to win the US Open,
Speaker 1: and all he needed was a bogey. So then you
Speaker 1: go and you're long, and you see if Tom Watson
Speaker 1: had only won the p G A of Arnold Palmer,
Speaker 1: the only one that p G A. Uh, you can
Speaker 1: go on with all these people that's so close to
Speaker 1: winning the Grand Slam. Their players today, Rory McIlory needs
Speaker 1: it about for Michaels And there's a great if if
Speaker 1: any second five times in the US Open, if only
Speaker 1: he had won one time, but he never and so
Speaker 1: it doesn't go down in the record book as a
Speaker 1: Grand Slam. There are so many ifs in this sport.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. And one has got to try and train
Speaker 1: your mind to realize when you first start, no, if, no,
Speaker 1: if they don't count. So the first thing I did
Speaker 1: want to ask was maybe you can give a bit
Speaker 1: of light on when you first met Hogan Um and
Speaker 1: and how that came about. I played in the US Opened,
Speaker 1: my first US Open ever. It's Southern Hills in Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: very hot. The rough was the highest rough I've ever
Speaker 1: seen in a major that and in Alabama when we
Speaker 1: played the p GA there. But I played with him
Speaker 1: the first dis holes and I was a bit nervous, obviously,
Speaker 1: and I went on to the first heat. I said
Speaker 1: good morning, sir, and I took my head. He said
Speaker 1: morning fella. Uh. And then on the thirty six hole,
Speaker 1: I was lying sick into Tommy Bolt at that stage,
Speaker 1: and I played very well. He said, well played, son.
Speaker 1: So he said five words basically in thirty six holes.
Speaker 1: And somebody said, well, why was he so talkative? He
Speaker 1: normally doesn't say anything. But I was sitting in the
Speaker 1: locker room and his back towards to me. He tapped
Speaker 1: me on the shoulder and I turned around in his
Speaker 1: face was right here against mine, and he said, you
Speaker 1: go and be a great player one day's son. And
Speaker 1: I said, Mr Hogan, you don't know what that means
Speaker 1: to me. And then he was going into the locker
Speaker 1: into the dining room from the locker room, and he
Speaker 1: was cambly dressed, and he had his jacket half on
Speaker 1: his shoulders and half off. And Nicholas always loves the
Speaker 1: story because Nicholas knows that I hit more balls than
Speaker 1: any human being ever. And Hogan turned around. He said,
Speaker 1: you you practice hard, son. I wanted to say, just
Speaker 1: as hard as you do, and I just said yes, sir,
Speaker 1: and he says, double it, and he walked into the
Speaker 1: dining room. Now, it's not possible to have doubled what
Speaker 1: I did, but he was a very unusual man. He
Speaker 1: then sent one of his representatives to ask me if
Speaker 1: i'd sign up with the Ben Hogan Company at two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. Remember this is this is sixty
Speaker 1: years ago, so if you look at inflation, it's not
Speaker 1: that bad. At the time, it wasn't that bad. But Vivian,
Speaker 1: my wife, and I were traveling back and forth to
Speaker 1: South Africa and around the world. We needed money to travel,
Speaker 1: and that same day first light man called Jack Hawkins
Speaker 1: offered me nine thousand, and I pondered and pondered, and
Speaker 1: I took the nine thousand. Did I do the right thing?
Speaker 1: I don't know. If I'd taken the two thousand, I
Speaker 1: would have probably ended up living in America, having a
Speaker 1: house next to Hogan, and he would have put me
Speaker 1: under my wing and with his knowledge things that I
Speaker 1: found out that he did at the age of seventy,
Speaker 1: I might have one, not might have a definitely would
Speaker 1: have won more majors because I wouldn't have had to
Speaker 1: do all the exhausting travel with no jets, forty hours
Speaker 1: from here to South Africa, no earphones, no TV, with
Speaker 1: all those children, six children traveling. Would have made a
Speaker 1: big difference in my life. But you can't go back
Speaker 1: and say if it didn't happen, it was such an
Speaker 1: honor that Hogan because he didn't have anybody else, he
Speaker 1: didn't sign up, he didn't believe in it at that stage,
Speaker 1: and what an honor for him to offer me. My
Speaker 1: goodness me and I look back in retrospect and say, well,
Speaker 1: if I'd sided with him, what would have happened? But
Speaker 1: I've had a wonderful life, very happy life, great family,
Speaker 1: great wife, and hundred and sixty five tournaments and also
Speaker 1: to be the early man in the world to win
Speaker 1: the Grand Slam on both to it, How much more
Speaker 1: success could I have? Well, I mean, Hogan always spoke, well,
Speaker 1: the rumor is that he'd found the secret to the swing,
Speaker 1: you know, he'd and he never did divulge that information
Speaker 1: to to anyone um, you know, So whether he'd found
Speaker 1: the secret, and maybe you can shed some lights on
Speaker 1: on on on what you think that secret might have been.
Speaker 1: But had he say in his early we need signed
Speaker 1: you up, and he'd spoken in your prime about what
Speaker 1: may have been the secret that may have had, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to quantify the impact of that might have
Speaker 1: had on your game. Well, that's right, and he uh,
Speaker 1: he did a story in a Life magazine where he
Speaker 1: had the club face very open at the top of
Speaker 1: the back swing, and he had the great rotation of
Speaker 1: his left side into the ball. But you see what
Speaker 1: he did have as a thing called it um. I've
Speaker 1: only seen about in my seventy years of playing, about
Speaker 1: fifteen players plus minus that have got it. Now, what
Speaker 1: is it? Iicon describe it? You watch your man like
Speaker 1: Lee Trevino, he aims a hundred yards left at the
Speaker 1: target and next to Hogan from t to green, he
Speaker 1: was the finest striker of a ball that I saw.
Speaker 1: So there's so many different theories. But but Hogan definitely
Speaker 1: had a secret. And you've got to have a swing
Speaker 1: that works under pressure. Now, it's one thing to play
Speaker 1: arounds in practice and score low and even go as
Speaker 1: far as winning a few majors. But you've got to
Speaker 1: have a swing that's going to work under pressure. And
Speaker 1: there's certain things and the golf thing that allow you
Speaker 1: to work under pressure. And wouldn't like to get into that.
Speaker 1: Now that's a long thing, a long story. But I've
Speaker 1: learned so much of the swing, you know, having hit
Speaker 1: more balls and being around all these top players, and
Speaker 1: I've learned so much about the swing that my goodness
Speaker 1: me Hogan he was the genius of all times. But
Speaker 1: you're talking about Trevina. If if he'd won the Masters,
Speaker 1: you know, you can have Arnold Palmer won the p
Speaker 1: g A. There must be fifty ifs that I can
Speaker 1: give you in my career. There's so many potential ifs.
Speaker 1: If you if you consider how the Augusta Nationals prepared
Speaker 1: these days, and the quality of the greens and the
Speaker 1: quality of the bankers um and just generally golf torn months.
Speaker 1: You know, when Hogan was in his prime, there were
Speaker 1: times where you couldn't fix pitchmarks on the green um.
Speaker 1: You know, now people are tapping down spike marks. So
Speaker 1: had had Hogan played in this era, what you know,
Speaker 1: if he had played, what would how many majors would
Speaker 1: he have one. That's a very good point. I remember
Speaker 1: Wotherdy playing golf. When you're ball buried in the green,
Speaker 1: you had to play it. I remember my brother in law,
Speaker 1: Bobby Verwait playing at that at the Open, the British
Speaker 1: Open and at Birkedale, and he hit his in the
Speaker 1: very first hole he had. He's bought his third wedge
Speaker 1: shot and had buried in the green fifteen foot from
Speaker 1: the flag. And he called for a ruling. Can I
Speaker 1: get relief? And the RNA man came out and said, no,
Speaker 1: you've got to play it was buried in the green.
Speaker 1: He took out his sad wedge and two inches behind,
Speaker 1: took a big swipe, came out of a hundred miles
Speaker 1: and now hit the flag and went in the hole.
Speaker 1: From then on they realized we've got to change that.
Speaker 1: There were some prehistoric rules in golf. If you tip
Speaker 1: the sand as you were going back and the back
Speaker 1: string and the bunk, it was a two short penalty
Speaker 1: you hit the ball out of bounds. He had to
Speaker 1: play three from the tea and get a man standing
Speaker 1: next to you. He whipped the ball and he played two.
Speaker 1: You had a great shot and luckily it bounced out
Speaker 1: of bounds and another man with the ball, and he
Speaker 1: was better off than you are. So thank goodness to
Speaker 1: the R and A and the U. S. T. A.
Speaker 1: In the PGA. They've come to the conclusion they've had
Speaker 1: a continuously changed rules. Think about putting the spike marks
Speaker 1: on the green. I mean there were two hundred spiker
Speaker 1: They didn't have lowers to cut the green. I mean
Speaker 1: the fairways that Augusta were terrible. I remember the thirteenth hold.
Speaker 1: I could easily have gone. I played Arnold Palmer in
Speaker 1: the playoffs and the thirteenth hold we were almost even.
Speaker 1: No I was still I was ahead of him at
Speaker 1: that stage and I had to lay up. I couldn't
Speaker 1: go for the green. It was allows he led. The
Speaker 1: greens were slow and roughish, rough. How you've got greens
Speaker 1: that are well. I never dreamt I would ever see
Speaker 1: a green like that. Hogan never dreamt he would see
Speaker 1: a green like it. The fairway is impeccable, not a wee.
Speaker 1: Bunker's absolutely raked with a machine. And they the same
Speaker 1: depth in Timber two in South Africa, Australian America. She
Speaker 1: was I just think the advancements that that have been
Speaker 1: made in the game. It's remarkable and it's great. What
Speaker 1: is new today is the ball goes fifty yards further
Speaker 1: and the clubs. I mean, here I am if I
Speaker 1: missed one fairway a day, I'm upset. I couldn't do
Speaker 1: that in my prime. Golf is so much easier today.
Speaker 1: It's a joke. I'd love to have seen what had
Speaker 1: happened if Sam's need Lee, Trevina, Tom Watson. But do
Speaker 1: you not do you not think that you know, obviously
Speaker 1: it's easy to look back and say, well, if these
Speaker 1: guys had had this, this technology, what they would have done.
Speaker 1: But the fact that the game was so difficult because
Speaker 1: of the equipment that Hogan and you know, Bobby Jones
Speaker 1: and those kind of those guys played with. Don't you
Speaker 1: think that that kind of you know, took them to
Speaker 1: a level where they had to figure things out because,
Speaker 1: for example, the secret, you know what, whatever whatever Hogan's
Speaker 1: secret was to the game, he had to figure it
Speaker 1: out because he had to understand the swing to on
Speaker 1: a level that was um that was required of him
Speaker 1: because the equipment was so difficult. You had to swing
Speaker 1: almost perfectly to to to be able to play exactly.
Speaker 1: I see players today, and I've seen them playing and
Speaker 1: they would in golf dourments and I see three faults
Speaker 1: and they're swing three faults in their swing, and yet
Speaker 1: they continue to win golf. If you had that three
Speaker 1: faults when you played with the equipment, then the old
Speaker 1: days you certainly wouldn't be able to win golf tournaments.
Speaker 1: Of course they can recover. You know today some players
Speaker 1: are geniuses from fifty yards and might not be in
Speaker 1: the top fifty on the turn striking the ball. I
Speaker 1: can think of a player on the tour now he's
Speaker 1: not He probably is probably the worst player from t
Speaker 1: to green on the tour, but he's a phenomenal player
Speaker 1: from fifty yards in so you can get away with it.
Speaker 1: So the short game, it was never forget. The short
Speaker 1: game is what wins golf torments. If you you talk
Speaker 1: about at the tourment and Revera, you talk about Arnold
Speaker 1: Partner's tournament, well, particularly Arnold's Partners tourment in Orlando, they
Speaker 1: were talking about the Golf channel. All they spoke about
Speaker 1: was the great distance that the shambro was hitting the ball.
Speaker 1: I love Deschambre. He's a gentleman, he's a smart, smart,
Speaker 1: smarter than anybody playing golf today. He's a very very
Speaker 1: highly intelligent man, and he's worked out things that are phenomenal.
Speaker 1: But they spoke about all they spoke about the long driving,
Speaker 1: and there that he was playing with the Westward and
Speaker 1: Lee Westward lost by one shot and he put his
Speaker 1: ball in a divot on the last hole and couldn't
Speaker 1: even shoot for the flag. The thing that won the
Speaker 1: tourment for deschambro he padded like Tarzan. They've admitted to
Speaker 1: say during the tournament the reason deschambro one was because
Speaker 1: he putted like Tarzan. All they spoke about, well, he
Speaker 1: was out driving Westward by ninety yards, so over the
Speaker 1: entire week, the way they were talking, you would have
Speaker 1: thought he would have beaten Westward by fifteen shots. No,
Speaker 1: he beat him by one shot, and Westwood made a
Speaker 1: five on a par five with a seven iron in
Speaker 1: his hand and hitting the ball in a divot on
Speaker 1: the last hole. Putting is what wins golf tourments, and
Speaker 1: the great mind, the thing called it, and not many
Speaker 1: people have blessed with that thing called it can on
Speaker 1: that point, and you can, you obviously can speak further
Speaker 1: to this point. But Hogan was an incredible ball striker.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got stories of you know what Sam
Speaker 1: Seed was saying about him hitting the ball in the
Speaker 1: same to it that he played the day before, and
Speaker 1: I think you mentioned was it continusity where he was
Speaker 1: hitting his his drive between the bunker and and the
Speaker 1: out of barsteak And you can hopefully can tell us
Speaker 1: so stories. Um. But from the books I've read on Hogan,
Speaker 1: he his putting wasn't his his strength, and in his
Speaker 1: book The Five Fundamentals, apparently he doesn't even talk about putting. Um,
Speaker 1: how do you think he was so successful without, you know,
Speaker 1: on the fact that his putting actually wasn't his strength.
Speaker 1: To the contrary, when he was a young man and
Speaker 1: Plague his best, he was a very good pattern but
Speaker 1: he got the yips quite early in his career and
Speaker 1: he was very much engaged putting that he believed that
Speaker 1: a green you should hit a green and it should
Speaker 1: be like a final and run into the hole. Well,
Speaker 1: you know that's too extreme. But to give you an
Speaker 1: idea of how well he hit the ball, card Noosti,
Speaker 1: which is one of the toughest golf courses in the world.
Speaker 1: The six holes of our five is out of bounds
Speaker 1: on the left and pot bunkers just to the right,
Speaker 1: and the width of the fairway is probably yards. And
Speaker 1: he put the ball between the outer bounds and that bunker.
Speaker 1: Every day in the torment, nobody tried it. They all
Speaker 1: have the ball well to the right and the banker,
Speaker 1: uh and never even thought about doing that. Now, this man,
Speaker 1: the shots that he played, and the way he swung
Speaker 1: the club. If you, if anybody wants to see the
Speaker 1: greatest swring ever, just get Hogan swinging at the British Open,
Speaker 1: the Open, and and you'll realize just what an incredible
Speaker 1: swing he had. And and and you have a story
Speaker 1: about Sneed and and what our Sneed fells about. Um,
Speaker 1: he was always quite I don't know where it is.
Speaker 1: Word is jealous or envious or irritated. And I think
Speaker 1: that the word was irritated because when Sneed and Hogan
Speaker 1: went met in playoffs, Steed always beat him, except Hogan
Speaker 1: beat him at Houston and in a match TV match.
Speaker 1: But they said to Sneed, you know, Sam, that Ben
Speaker 1: Hogan hits the ball so straight that he puts his
Speaker 1: drive and the same divant he was yesterday, he said,
Speaker 1: if only, if he's that straight, why doesn't he hit
Speaker 1: to the right or the left of the divot? And
Speaker 1: you know he irritated him quite a lot that But
Speaker 1: Sam Snead was the greatest athlete they've ever played golf.
Speaker 1: And those days they didn't have gyms that you're on
Speaker 1: the tour where you could conveniently go to after your
Speaker 1: round of golf. At sixty five, he would kicked the
Speaker 1: door in the locker room. He would walk in and
Speaker 1: touch the ground flat handed. He would uh, he'd be
Speaker 1: able to take a ball out of the cup. He'd
Speaker 1: take the ball out of a cup with his legs straight.
Speaker 1: This man was a piece of rubber and he was strong.
Speaker 1: And if it wasn't there again, if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the war, he would have definitely won the Grand Slam,
Speaker 1: not not even a question about it. But it's it's
Speaker 1: the it's actually if equals said, if equals said, but
Speaker 1: it's a reality, isn't isn't that? Isn't that part of
Speaker 1: a life? I mean, you've got gifts of your own. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, at the end of the day, a lot
Speaker 1: of yts um. And it is it is sad because
Speaker 1: you know it would be nice if they weren't. In
Speaker 1: years things that, regardless of you are in your life,
Speaker 1: there will always been if the rules of life. If
Speaker 1: I traveled from South Africa to America five six times
Speaker 1: a year in those non jets, and I lived in America,
Speaker 1: I would have definitely one more majors, not even a
Speaker 1: question about it. But I wanted to be with my family,
Speaker 1: and it was tough traveling. I mean, can you imagine
Speaker 1: you're granny traveling with six children's taking forty hours and
Speaker 1: traveling at two D thirty miles. So, I mean, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of ifs about it. If I mean right,
Speaker 1: that applies so, and you know, I think about it
Speaker 1: all the time, all these ifs that occurred in in
Speaker 1: my seventy years as a professional golfer. It's quite remarkable. Um,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask. The one thing I found quite
Speaker 1: interesting about Hogan was how long it took him to
Speaker 1: actually become a winner. You know, he took a long time,
Speaker 1: and he struggled. He didn't do particularly well for the
Speaker 1: first I don't know, probably decade of his career, and
Speaker 1: then you know, once he started winning, he became more prolific.
Speaker 1: Why you know, for someone who was so talented and
Speaker 1: had worked so hard. What do you think, what do
Speaker 1: you think was the reason that it took him so
Speaker 1: long to win? And why did it start happening, and
Speaker 1: why was he then so unbeatable when it did start happening. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, all he played golf with quite a
Speaker 1: shut face um, which some players are doing. But you've
Speaker 1: seen throughout time Arnold Palmer as a shut face golfer,
Speaker 1: and that's why Arnold only one majors for six years,
Speaker 1: whereas Nicknas won for twenty five years and I one
Speaker 1: for twenty. Shut face golfers, your career is very very
Speaker 1: limited for a length of time. A man like Dustin Johnson,
Speaker 1: he's a phenomenal golfer, but he's a he's a there again,
Speaker 1: he's completely different. He's very very strong in the hands,
Speaker 1: and he is a very very long back string. He's tall,
Speaker 1: so he has time to recover. But most shut place golfers,
Speaker 1: their golf careers are pretty limited, as we've seen through
Speaker 1: our time. Although today you can get away with it
Speaker 1: more because of the metal head and I never have
Speaker 1: read this in a magazine. The re is you could
Speaker 1: get away with being shut faced today because of the
Speaker 1: metal head and because the ball doesn't hook and fade
Speaker 1: as much. So there's a reason. But you certainly couldn't
Speaker 1: do that um with a wooden head. Now you will
Speaker 1: be able to get away with it with this equipment
Speaker 1: that you use today. That's a very significant thing that
Speaker 1: we've just said right now. Hogan won his first major
Speaker 1: thirty four, whereas now the most I don't care what
Speaker 1: performance you like to give me in sport, there has
Speaker 1: never been anything that compares to Tiger Woods. I won
Speaker 1: the Grand Slab of twenty nine, and I said to
Speaker 1: your granny, nobody will do that at twenty nine. Again,
Speaker 1: Nicholas came along and wanted the twenty six. Tiger came
Speaker 1: along and wanted a twenty four. There's nothing in sports
Speaker 1: that compere that. So many players have never players that
Speaker 1: have one major's had never even played in a major
Speaker 1: at twenty four. I mean what he did do that
Speaker 1: at twenty four years of age. Nothing nothing in sports.
Speaker 1: And I've got great respect for all men and women
Speaker 1: that have achieved greatness. Nothing compares to that. So with
Speaker 1: regards to Hogan, your feeling is that the fact that
Speaker 1: he was struggling with the hooks and the fact that
Speaker 1: his club face was so shut at the top. Do
Speaker 1: you think that him figuring out, you know from what
Speaker 1: I've heard you say before, that his hands had to
Speaker 1: be under the shaft um. Do you think that him
Speaker 1: having an open club face and figuring that out allowed
Speaker 1: him to play with the consistency that he later became
Speaker 1: known for. Yes, But he also had extremely extremely fast hips.
Speaker 1: You see, I listened to people on giving commentary on
Speaker 1: golf saying their hips out raised their hands. That's not possible.
Speaker 1: The faster your hips work, the faster your hands work.
Speaker 1: Here such rubbish. It's just scary. So but anyway, Hogan
Speaker 1: also had a very strong group, strong left handed group,
Speaker 1: and his swing was too upright. And you never be
Speaker 1: a very you there are exception. You look at Dustin Johnson.
Speaker 1: He's an exception, and there are exceptions in the sport.
Speaker 1: Trevino is an exception. Aiming way he left the way
Speaker 1: he did and played. There are these exceptions. But you've
Speaker 1: got to have a flattish swing, which helps you to
Speaker 1: hit the inside of the ball when you're playing golf
Speaker 1: instead of the outside. And you he what he did.
Speaker 1: He realized that he flattened his swing. I spoke him
Speaker 1: about that. He said to me, your swing can't be
Speaker 1: too flat as long as your hands are under the shaft.
Speaker 1: And that's what he said at Semino Golf Club and
Speaker 1: nine in fifty seven. To me, I didn't understand what
Speaker 1: he was talking about. It sounded like hieroglyphics. At seventy
Speaker 1: I suddenly worked out what he was saying. But be
Speaker 1: that as it may, and this is a game that
Speaker 1: we will continue learning forever. Hogan was he was a
Speaker 1: strong group. He was too upright, and he had too
Speaker 1: much of a C. A C any swing that is
Speaker 1: when you're back in your hip suffard and your back
Speaker 1: is back. That's the C swing. And he changed that
Speaker 1: to a flatter swing with a weaker grip, which you
Speaker 1: had to do with the old shafts and would that
Speaker 1: we played with I had a very weak group. Now
Speaker 1: with this metal, I have a very strong lift hated group,
Speaker 1: and I cannot hook the ball. Now if I did
Speaker 1: that with with would, I would have hit such duck hooks.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't have believed it. So it's horses for courses,
Speaker 1: and the most prevalent thing in is not the prize money.
Speaker 1: I think the biggest change in golf is being able
Speaker 1: to travel rapidly. I think the the prize money obviously
Speaker 1: is just unbelievable, but the equipment the Lord Mother is
Speaker 1: Byron Nelson so appropriately said the Lord murmur a difference.
Speaker 1: Can you see these guys holding puts from all over today,
Speaker 1: and let me tell you something that the putters like
Speaker 1: in our time. Bobby Locke from South Africa was definitely
Speaker 1: the best pudd of that eveloved because he putted like
Speaker 1: tiger on bad greens. Bob Charles doug Ford, Arnold Palmer,
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas, you can go down the line, Ben Crench
Speaker 1: or phenomenal pudders. Impossible to be better, impossible to be better.
Speaker 1: So when it does, it just that's the thing. The
Speaker 1: human being is very resilient. The human being can adjust
Speaker 1: to things. When I was traveling and traveling with no
Speaker 1: jets all over the world and having to play against
Speaker 1: all those players in their home country, that's what I
Speaker 1: wanted to do. I'll give you an example. I played
Speaker 1: with Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicholas and the World Cup
Speaker 1: at St. Noombla Brotess in France, and the round was
Speaker 1: pombed out on the Sunday. So the travel agent cab
Speaker 1: and said, look, you're going to the Australian Open at
Speaker 1: Royal Melbourne. I can now get you there the morning
Speaker 1: that you're going to be teeing off three hours before
Speaker 1: the torment starts. Arnold and Jackson, We're not going. I went.
Speaker 1: I traveled to Australia from France, sixteen time change whatever
Speaker 1: it is, arrived there, actually arrived three hours before and
Speaker 1: never seen Royal Melbourne. Gave me another set of clubs
Speaker 1: and another ball, and I hear people being fussy about
Speaker 1: the ball they use. It just makes me laugh. And
Speaker 1: I won the Australian Open by seven shots. It just
Speaker 1: shows you how important the mind is. This is the thing.
Speaker 1: As a young player starting today, the swing is not
Speaker 1: the thing. Patting is the thing, and the mind is
Speaker 1: the thing. And as I'm going to be repetitive and say,
Speaker 1: in my seventy years of playing, I've seen plus minus
Speaker 1: fifteen players with the mind that really counts that mine
Speaker 1: equals it. It is it? What is it? Nobody can
Speaker 1: describe it, no analysts, no scritters, no pro golfer, no wife,
Speaker 1: no husband. It's a gift. That is bestowed upon you,
Speaker 1: and I wish I could describe it. Tom Weiskoff, my
Speaker 1: dear friend, who unfortunately is not that well at this moment.
Speaker 1: We wished him the best. He was a better golfer
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas, but he and he admitted himself, he just
Speaker 1: didn't have that little thing called it. He didn't have
Speaker 1: the mind to go along with his greatness. And although
Speaker 1: he played unbelievably well, how good would he have been
Speaker 1: if you've taken Nicholas's head and put it on wiskaf Well,
Speaker 1: that would have been there's the biggest for game. You
Speaker 1: see the big ift for game. But that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: I mean, if if you can bring out the most
Speaker 1: remarkable stories with if, honestly, it's just a fascinating So
Speaker 1: when did you meet Hogan Um? And my recollection was
Speaker 1: is that you met in the ninety seven at Seminal
Speaker 1: Um And so what can you explain a little bit
Speaker 1: of the background of of that that actual meeting before
Speaker 1: you end up playing with him in the use open Well,
Speaker 1: I watched him practice that week. I sat behind him.
Speaker 1: Actually he hipped down the hip down the ninth hole.
Speaker 1: I watched him practice for hours He never even turned
Speaker 1: around and acknowledged me. He never said anything. He didn't
Speaker 1: know me, actually. And then a man running the torment,
Speaker 1: Chris Dumphy, wonderful man. I'll remember at the club Several,
Speaker 1: which is a beautiful golf course steeped in tradition. And
Speaker 1: Christoph he said to me, who would you likee? He
Speaker 1: liked me and I liked him, and he was very arrogant,
Speaker 1: and he said to me, who do you want to
Speaker 1: play with in the tournament? I said, Ben Hogan. He says,
Speaker 1: you've got him, and those days they can do that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I played with him and we
Speaker 1: got to the ninth hole. He hadn't said a word
Speaker 1: to me, just good morning, that's all. We've got the
Speaker 1: ninth hole. There was a long hold up, and he
Speaker 1: said to me, ah, congratulations on your torment. You won
Speaker 1: last week in England. And I shot at what a
Speaker 1: tourment in England and I shot seventy sixty six seventy
Speaker 1: something like that and beat Bobby Jones's record, and I
Speaker 1: said thanks, Mr Hogan. And I said, but the pros
Speaker 1: they said I should go back home because my string
Speaker 1: was too flat and I'd never make it and he
Speaker 1: walked up to me and he put his face right
Speaker 1: here and he says, you can't beat too flats as
Speaker 1: long as your hands are of the shift, and then
Speaker 1: he spoke about other things. I didn't understand what he
Speaker 1: was saying. And isn't that there again? If only I
Speaker 1: had understood, I wouldn't have been second in those seven majors.
Speaker 1: I would have one at least three of those, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't count. And I have a picture as we're
Speaker 1: sitting here right now on my desk. There it is
Speaker 1: Ben Hogan starting his backs ring and it's quite fascinating.
Speaker 1: And this was at Oakland Hills in Michigan, where he
Speaker 1: brought the course those days. That course was very tough
Speaker 1: for the wooden clubs and the balls, and it was
Speaker 1: known as one of the tough golf courses. On the
Speaker 1: turn he said he shot sixty seven and one day
Speaker 1: open and he said I eventually brought this course to
Speaker 1: its knees, which was a fascinating saying. But now and
Speaker 1: then I can remember I shot seventy three in our
Speaker 1: lay with him, and the shot making he made in
Speaker 1: that wound was just so remarkable. That had a sound
Speaker 1: when he hit them all over that. It was like
Speaker 1: taking a sheet and tearing it. Ah, what a golf swing?
Speaker 1: What a mind? You see if you look at the
Speaker 1: minds when I'm talking about that, it take Hogan, take Nicholas,
Speaker 1: take Tiger, just those three, not dwelving into all the
Speaker 1: other place. They were very different. Their minds were completely different.
Speaker 1: So it was noticeable when they played, really noticeable. What
Speaker 1: did they have. I can't tell you. I can't tell
Speaker 1: you what it is, but it was very, very noticeable.
Speaker 1: And now can you imagine as we're going now, if
Speaker 1: I was a young man, I wouldn't be just worrying
Speaker 1: about the swing as the thing. I'd worry about being
Speaker 1: the best printer on the turk, and I'd work on
Speaker 1: my mind. But I'd work on my mind with somebody
Speaker 1: that played, that had been in the arena. That's a
Speaker 1: big difference to talk about things you've read, but to
Speaker 1: get and have knowledge from people that have actually been
Speaker 1: in the arena. That's why I've valued so much what
Speaker 1: Hogan said. I had a lot of people wanting to
Speaker 1: tell me things that had never really been in the arena,
Speaker 1: but they've read about it. But when Hogan said something,
Speaker 1: I digested it. And I've got to tell you another
Speaker 1: great story about Bobby Lock. I was talking about his putting.
Speaker 1: Now Bobby Lock came across yet he just played Sam
Speaker 1: Snead in South Africa. Twenty two matches Snead one too.
Speaker 1: They tied to and locked one sixteen. So Lot Sneed
Speaker 1: came back and said, all the guys, you better beat
Speaker 1: this guy, Bobby Lock when he comes over here. He
Speaker 1: puts so well, you've never seen anything like it. Well,
Speaker 1: Bobby Lock came over and won seven out of eleven tournaments,
Speaker 1: and then they barred him from playing. But I was
Speaker 1: at Tamashan to the last Tamishan to the head. George
Speaker 1: s May sponsored it. If you won the tourment in Chicago,
Speaker 1: you've got fifty exhibitions at a thousand dollars a time,
Speaker 1: which was like a million dollars at that time. And
Speaker 1: Lloyd Mangram, who was another very tough guy, came very nice,
Speaker 1: maybe very tough on the golf course, came up to Lock.
Speaker 1: He said, a muffin face. He gave Lock the name
Speaker 1: muffin face was locked out, a fat face. He said
Speaker 1: that Sam Sneeed says, you can play. Would you like
Speaker 1: to have me a bitter sweet Locks is very quiet,
Speaker 1: cut said yes I would. He says, well, I'll have
Speaker 1: my Cadillac against your cadillac. Lock said that's fine. And
Speaker 1: so they played, and I think Locke beat him by
Speaker 1: at least seventeen shots in the torn and Lloyd Magram
Speaker 1: honored his word, came up and gave him the keys
Speaker 1: to the car. And Locke used to call me captain.
Speaker 1: He said, captain. I'm sure happy I didn't lose that
Speaker 1: bit because I don't know the Cadillac, but the guy's
Speaker 1: better those days. Was remarkable how they bet that's the
Speaker 1: way they could make a little bit of money. You
Speaker 1: look at Sam Snead and Ben Hogan, two the sixth
Speaker 1: greatest players have ever lived. They didn't even make in
Speaker 1: the entire careers. What players make for finishing tenth and
Speaker 1: two tournaments. That's food for thought. Yeah. Um, so I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask the the two stories that I still
Speaker 1: want you to cover, you know, with with regards to Hogan,
Speaker 1: the first was was you had you had been I
Speaker 1: don't know who the person you were just having discussion with,
Speaker 1: but you were arguing a point in the golf swing
Speaker 1: and so you gave. You try to give Hogan a
Speaker 1: court to clarify this point, and he was as friendly
Speaker 1: as ever. Well, ah, I Hogan got the needle to
Speaker 1: me because I didn't sign up with him. And I
Speaker 1: can understand that, you know, because it was like I
Speaker 1: suppose you can say it was a slap in the face,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't. I had to. I had to. I
Speaker 1: had to sign up for somebody else, even though I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I might have made a mistake, but I needed the money.
Speaker 1: I couldn't live without the money being so far away.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I know he I knew his best friend
Speaker 1: and he was one of my best friends. And he said,
Speaker 1: your phone Hogan at five to eight. He's only mean,
Speaker 1: He's not very mean. So I was in Brazil and
Speaker 1: I've phoned him at five to eight and n I said,
Speaker 1: Mr Hogan, good evening. This is Gary Player here. He says, yep.
Speaker 1: I said, I'd like to ask you a question, if
Speaker 1: I may. I don't believe in giveaway programs. What is that? So?
Speaker 1: I said, Mr Hogan, We're having a debate about the
Speaker 1: backswing with a young American friend of mine here, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to ask you to rectify what is correct?
Speaker 1: Dead silence on the phone. Yeah, I said hello, Hello,
Speaker 1: He says, I'm here, I'm here. He says, I want
Speaker 1: to be real curt with you, fellow. I've never heard
Speaker 1: the word could, and I think I did reasonably would
Speaker 1: at English in school. He said, I want to be
Speaker 1: real court with your fellow. He says, who do you
Speaker 1: represent on the I said that the Dunklop company, says
Speaker 1: called Mr Dunlop and put the phone down on me.
Speaker 1: They were tough and those those they were quick, whereas
Speaker 1: now licking Nicholas. On the other hand, I played Nicholas
Speaker 1: in the final of the World Match Play Championship twice
Speaker 1: in England, a long thirty six old golf course we've
Speaker 1: played homes. I beat him six and four and five
Speaker 1: and four. He came up to me, put his arm
Speaker 1: around me and he said, well played. Nicholas was the
Speaker 1: greatest gentleman I ever played. I also think he's the
Speaker 1: best designer of golf courses today. And I was on
Speaker 1: the tea and I was not hitting the ball very well,
Speaker 1: and he said, why don't you just make you're right
Speaker 1: hand a little weaker? And I went on to play
Speaker 1: so well and actually beat the daylights out of him.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of man at Nicholas was four years
Speaker 1: they were not like that and those other days because
Speaker 1: there was no prize money and it was a different era.
Speaker 1: So there's another if. And then the one. The last
Speaker 1: story I wanted to ask you about was your experience
Speaker 1: with Hogan and at the Champions dinner Augusta. Well, that
Speaker 1: that was an experience second to none. We were sitting
Speaker 1: at the dinner and we were at the lower locker
Speaker 1: room in those days, and I didn't have a tablecloth
Speaker 1: and didn't have the ambiance of the room that we
Speaker 1: have now, which is unbelievable. As you know, Augusta is
Speaker 1: the best run golf tourment in the world, and things
Speaker 1: are just perfect because they do have the tourment at
Speaker 1: the same place every year, which is an advantage to
Speaker 1: know what to cater for. But we were sitting at
Speaker 1: a very hard table in the locker room and I
Speaker 1: this was I was I think I was defending champion
Speaker 1: that year, and this book came around and everybody was
Speaker 1: signing it, and it came to me and I signed it,
Speaker 1: and I was sitting next to Hogan, and I'll put
Speaker 1: it in front of him, and I wish you could
Speaker 1: have seen a look on his face. And I you know,
Speaker 1: I don't like swearing, so I'm not going to tell
Speaker 1: you exactly what he said. He wasn't exactly a swear word,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't what I'd like to hear. And he
Speaker 1: looked and he looked, and he suddenly stood up and
Speaker 1: he took this book, slammed it on the table and
Speaker 1: he said, who passed us? Damn book up here? And
Speaker 1: Houghton Smith, who was a thorough gentleman and had won
Speaker 1: the Masters the first time, sit up and said, Ben,
Speaker 1: I've got a junior at my club, and I thought
Speaker 1: it would be very encouraging for him to get the
Speaker 1: signatures of the Masters. He said, Haughton, this is the
Speaker 1: Master's club that I started. This is not a damn
Speaker 1: autograph session club. Don't you ever send another book up
Speaker 1: to be signed? And now you look what happens. Now
Speaker 1: we go in the locker room, just a complete opposite.
Speaker 1: Everybody starting at least fifty flags. Everybody's signing flags, flag flag,
Speaker 1: which actually is a nice thing because it goes for
Speaker 1: the betterment of golf. It goes to charities, and after all,
Speaker 1: we so lucky in our lives, lucky to be at
Speaker 1: playing golf in America, this great country, and to be
Speaker 1: playing in a torment like Augusta, and it helps so
Speaker 1: many a variety of charities, which is fantastic. So things
Speaker 1: have changed, Things have changed, and changed is the price
Speaker 1: of survival. I always listen to people saying, oh that
Speaker 1: that politicians are flip flop or that guy's a flip flop. Well,
Speaker 1: I would hope you would be a flip flop because
Speaker 1: changes the price of survival. What I believed in as
Speaker 1: a young man and ideas I had in my career
Speaker 1: about various subjects of all change. That's for the betterment
Speaker 1: of the human being. So it was fascinating. And the
Speaker 1: dinner there that in, the dinner at the r n
Speaker 1: A at the British Open are two of the greatest
Speaker 1: evenings of your life. Well we can only take your
Speaker 1: word for that. Yeah you Unfortunately you'll never be invited,
Speaker 1: even with all your talent. Yeah, don't forget to subscribe
Speaker 1: to the Player series on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcast.