Speaker 1: At Adam Caryl Lone.
Speaker 2: She's a queen and talking and you know she's getting
Speaker 2: really not afraid to feel as episode or soul.
Speaker 1: Just let it flow. No one can do we quiet,
Speaker 1: Cary Line, it's sound for Carolne.
Speaker 3: You know what I like about you, Terry Cole do telling.
Speaker 1: I like that you just like get to the point,
Speaker 1: like and when you're ready to leave, you just leave,
Speaker 1: like you'll leave a conversation, you'll leave a room, you'll
Speaker 1: leave anything when you're done with it, like you have
Speaker 1: a strong boundary.
Speaker 3: But it's so kind and loving.
Speaker 2: That's so funny that you noticed that when it's time
Speaker 2: to go.
Speaker 3: For Terry Cole, it's time to go.
Speaker 2: She gotta go.
Speaker 1: You gotta go because I admire that in people, because
Speaker 1: I can't leave, like I have a hard time leaving,
Speaker 1: like I have to wait for everyone to be ready
Speaker 1: to leave.
Speaker 3: Part of my high functioning codebend. It's like that is correct, Oh,
Speaker 3: I know, I know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I ast need to make sure everybody's done
Speaker 1: with what they need to do and that they're finished
Speaker 1: with what they want from that experience and what they
Speaker 1: need from me. And so then when I feel like
Speaker 1: everyone's ready to sleep, I'll leave.
Speaker 3: But when I notice people like yourself who just freaking
Speaker 3: leave right.
Speaker 2: You're like, because when I need to leave is my
Speaker 2: side of the street, and what other people need to
Speaker 2: leave is their side of the street.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: See, you're not mind reading trying to guess why they
Speaker 1: need you to stay longer, why you're going to say
Speaker 1: for them, when you accomplished what you need to accomplish.
Speaker 2: You're out or I just want to go home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that about you because I've been
Speaker 1: lucky enough to talk to you on zoom calls like
Speaker 1: maybe three or four times, but you always just go
Speaker 1: when you're done, Like you're always like, okay, great, love
Speaker 1: talking to you, bye, love me, and then you just
Speaker 1: hang right up.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I have some power right there.
Speaker 2: And what's so funny if my husband cannot end a
Speaker 2: conversation with people and they said we'll be on based
Speaker 2: on with family and whatever, and I'm like, wrap it,
Speaker 2: look up, like we're all done. They're done, We're done.
Speaker 2: And then as soon as we're about to hang up
Speaker 2: and be like, oh wait, Alex, I wanted to ask her,
Speaker 2: I'm like, how are we what is this an abandonment
Speaker 2: issue thing, like, what's the deal? Is there a skill
Speaker 2: to ending a conversation? I think there is?
Speaker 1: Did you always end conversations well? Or did you acquire
Speaker 1: this over your years and years? Okay, so you're a psychotherapist. Yes,
Speaker 1: like the best in the world in my opinion, because
Speaker 1: you gave me my biggest breakthrough, which I was on
Speaker 1: a hunt around the world.
Speaker 3: Literally.
Speaker 1: I hired a life coach who were both friends with
Speaker 1: Kathy Heller. She was amazing, learned so much from her,
Speaker 1: and then she led me to you because we had
Speaker 1: this retreat and she was having experts come in and
Speaker 1: teach us about ourselves and like why we were struggling
Speaker 1: with self worth and all the things. And you came
Speaker 1: in and you talked about hygph function codependency, and my
Speaker 1: jaw was on the ground.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, this is me.
Speaker 1: But I, like, I had no idea because I did
Speaker 1: not think I was codependent because I was so capable
Speaker 1: exactly yeah, and I've done so many big things and
Speaker 1: I'm not scared to take risks, you know, right.
Speaker 2: But you, like everyone else, didn't understand the vast expansion
Speaker 2: that is codependency and the particular flavor of your codependency.
Speaker 2: It was the same as my codependency, which is why
Speaker 2: I named a new kind of codependency, calling it high functioning,
Speaker 2: because you were like all of my therapy clients who
Speaker 2: anytime I would bring up, hey, that's a codependent pattern,
Speaker 2: they'd be like, no, it's not, lady, I'm not codependent.
Speaker 2: Everyone's dependent on me. I'm the one making all the dough.
Speaker 2: I'm the one who's the rock in my family. I'm
Speaker 2: the one managing all the people. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: And it made me realize, Wow, my highly capable clients
Speaker 2: do not know what codependency is.
Speaker 3: What is it?
Speaker 2: I won't tell you. Okay. According to Terry.
Speaker 3: Cole, which is a good one to accord to, That's.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is when you are overly invested in
Speaker 2: the feeling states, the outcomes, situations, circumstances, relationships of the
Speaker 2: people in your life to the detriment of your own
Speaker 2: internal peace.
Speaker 3: That's a big one.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So like those are some big words just through out there,
Speaker 1: but like really, when you break it down, like if
Speaker 1: you're feeling sick in your stomach because you're so worried
Speaker 1: about everyone in your life that their outcomes aren't going
Speaker 1: to be what you need them to be. And that's
Speaker 1: what you said, The outcomes need to be the way
Speaker 1: I need them to be so I can relax, Like,
Speaker 1: I can't have them messing up how I needed to go,
Speaker 1: or having them have construction or have them not being
Speaker 1: happy or have them being mad at me, because then
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to have peace.
Speaker 3: So I have to go control them to make sure
Speaker 3: that I give.
Speaker 1: Them everything I can with my people, pleasing personality, read
Speaker 1: their energy, like feel the room, make sure they get
Speaker 1: what they need so they can be happy, and then
Speaker 1: I can be like, Okay, I can relax.
Speaker 2: So you see how that's a short term strategy.
Speaker 3: I lived in that way for like my whole life.
Speaker 2: Right, But you understand you can't keep going, which is
Speaker 2: why you were searching around.
Speaker 3: The world just having a prey down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because literally there's only so much bandwidth that we
Speaker 2: can bleed in that way, especially once you become a mother,
Speaker 2: especially because once you hit perimenopause or menopause, like you
Speaker 2: just get so over all of this bandwidth bleeding. And
Speaker 2: what I see in my therapy practice is that it
Speaker 2: makes us presentful because we're doing it. We are proactively
Speaker 2: inserting ourselves. Right, So what are the Let's talk about
Speaker 2: the behaviors, because I feel like, let's get really clear
Speaker 2: for people who are watching and listening to be able
Speaker 2: to see themselves. If you are a high functioning codependent,
Speaker 2: I mean, let's just be specific about the differences. Right,
Speaker 2: The more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency.
Speaker 2: Sneakier you are, but it's still codependency.
Speaker 1: You're extra sneaky and acting not codependent, that's right, You're
Speaker 1: really good at it.
Speaker 2: But actually people perceive you as not codependent because you're so.
Speaker 3: Capable, probably like running some company.
Speaker 2: You are, and nobody is checking in on you either,
Speaker 2: because we're the ones who are checking in on all
Speaker 2: the other people, right. Right, So with codependency, people think
Speaker 2: my clients were like, I'm not enabling an alcoholic. What
Speaker 2: are you talking about? As if that is the only
Speaker 2: way codependency can be expressed, Like.
Speaker 1: As if you let someone carry on a toxic behavior
Speaker 1: that you're very aware, like drinking or drinks.
Speaker 2: I mean, when you think about codependency, this is how
Speaker 2: codependency Melody Baity codependent, no more got to be involved
Speaker 2: with an addict. This is what a lot of my
Speaker 2: the myths that my clients thought were true about codependency,
Speaker 2: so they didn't see themselves in the problem. So for me,
Speaker 2: I needed to create it so they could see themselves,
Speaker 2: because how could we get to a solution if they
Speaker 2: didn't even see themselves in the problem. And you know, Caroline,
Speaker 2: it was also my own personal experiences, So this wasn't
Speaker 2: just me sort of changing this definition. It's me expanding
Speaker 2: the definition because it was the flavor of my own
Speaker 2: young life codependency where you're not just codependent with the
Speaker 2: people in your life, you could be codependent. I mean,
Speaker 2: I opened the book with a story of me being
Speaker 2: on a platform in Long Island, a train platform at
Speaker 2: ten thirty at night on a Tuesday, and I see
Speaker 2: this kid, he's probably about nineteen and I'm probably about
Speaker 2: twenty two, and he's holding a little blanket and I'm like, hmm.
Speaker 2: My helper radar is already pinging, like where's this young
Speaker 2: kid going? At ten thirty at night? And I was
Speaker 2: going back to my apartment. I was coming from therapy,
Speaker 2: and so I started chattinghim up on the train, and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, where are you going? He said, Oh,
Speaker 2: my name is Billy blah blah blah. He's like, I
Speaker 2: was hired to drive a car from Long Island to
Speaker 2: Indiana and then they just canceled the gig. So I go,
Speaker 2: so where are you going? He's like, I'm going. I'm
Speaker 2: going to you know, Penn Station. I go, where are
Speaker 2: you going to sleep? He's like Pound Station. I was like, no,
Speaker 2: you're not building. Have you ever been to Penn State?
Speaker 2: Keep him on. This is the late eighties. The city
Speaker 2: was rough still. I was like, you've ever been to
Speaker 2: Pend Station? Dude? You can't sleep there. He's like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't know anybody in New York. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you do? You know me? You let him upstate with you? Yes?
Speaker 2: I did. I took a perfect stranger that I knew
Speaker 2: for exactly one hour, brought him to my apartment with
Speaker 2: my female roommate, and it was a studio rent did
Speaker 2: it all?
Speaker 3: How did it pan out?
Speaker 2: Oh? Fine? Of course? I mean he left without incident
Speaker 2: the next day. And the point is you guys, watching
Speaker 2: and listening to you, you may not have done that extreme,
Speaker 2: but we all have Billy's stories. Which is where we
Speaker 2: feel overly responsible for people we don't even efen know.
Speaker 2: Why is that well, because it's an illusion of control. Right,
Speaker 2: here's the illusion. I couldn't stand the idea that this
Speaker 2: boy in my mind, which is ironic because I was
Speaker 2: probably three years older than him, was going to be
Speaker 2: in what I considered a dangerous or precarious situation. And
Speaker 2: we are the helpers, the healers, we're the ones, we're
Speaker 2: the ones. We can't let it slip through the crack,
Speaker 2: even someone we don't know. And here's the thing. I
Speaker 2: didn't stop and think and go, hmmm, does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Is this even my shit to solve? Like is this
Speaker 2: even my problem? It was a knee jerk reaction. So
Speaker 2: the thing with high function codependency in these and I'm
Speaker 2: going to go through the behaviors so people can't get
Speaker 2: into it and understand if it's them we're talking about.
Speaker 2: These are things we're sort of doing compulsively, like I'm
Speaker 2: not thinking. I wasn't thinking before, not at all, and
Speaker 2: it never entered my mind. It wasn't the right thing
Speaker 2: to do, though, I mean till way later, even when
Speaker 2: I came home, freached yourself out way later. We later,
Speaker 2: I well, of course, and once I started, once I
Speaker 2: had kids, I was like, that was insane. Why would
Speaker 2: you do that? So the behaviors we want to look
Speaker 2: out for auto advice giving, Okay.
Speaker 1: So I kind of explain that a little bit, so
Speaker 1: always got the right answer always here. Because another thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to diverge, just when to make
Speaker 1: sure I say this is when you are a high
Speaker 1: function codependent, you are so afraid of that other person's
Speaker 1: cookie crumbling and their life falling apart.
Speaker 3: But what you don't know.
Speaker 1: Is like that is so self righteous of you to
Speaker 1: think that you know it's best for them, and that
Speaker 1: them falling apart isn't exactly what they needed. So they
Speaker 1: could hit that level and actually gain the lessons they
Speaker 1: need and go on the journey they need that they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have done if.
Speaker 3: They hadn't hit that level. I think about that all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: Yes, but it takes so long to get to that
Speaker 2: because here's the thing.
Speaker 3: So then you have to let people be.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. We have to let the ships fall
Speaker 2: where they may when they're not your mother f and chips.
Speaker 2: But that's the hard that's the hard. Part. So the
Speaker 2: auto advice giving this can look like two things. It
Speaker 2: can look like someone coming to you and just saying, oh, hey,
Speaker 2: I decided I'm going to go here for vacation. You
Speaker 2: being like, oh, make sure you stop there as well.
Speaker 2: This place was amazing. You're going to love that. I
Speaker 2: know people, I actually have a great real estate, but
Speaker 2: like I have a great travel agent for you, I
Speaker 2: where we just can't stop. So that's someone who hasn't
Speaker 2: even asked us for our input. They literally just said
Speaker 2: I'm going on vacation. We were like planning their itinerary.
Speaker 2: So there's that. And then you have the people who
Speaker 2: come to you because you are a healer and a
Speaker 2: helper and a fixer, who are like, she's definitely going
Speaker 2: to tell me what to do. Can't wait, And they say, hey,
Speaker 2: I have this problem, and you immediately jump in with
Speaker 2: your ideas, your thoughts. The people you can hook them
Speaker 2: up with the book that you've already underlined for them,
Speaker 2: the course that you're going to purchase for them, all
Speaker 2: the things that we do. But let's talk about the cost.
Speaker 3: So wait, what is that one?
Speaker 2: When they time to you, that's also advice givings and it's.
Speaker 3: As part of auto advice giving. It really is, because
Speaker 3: you have the spiritual advice yes and no wisdom.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though, they could come to you and say,
Speaker 2: even if they're asking for your opinion, the most loving
Speaker 2: thing to do before you ever tell anyone what you
Speaker 2: think is to say, first of all, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Instead of like, instead of going to that people, please
Speaker 1: do let me fix it right away. So just fire
Speaker 1: off some advice for you, But what do you think?
Speaker 3: Because they actually know.
Speaker 2: For themselves, and even if they don't, it's okay, right,
Speaker 2: you can say what do you think you should do?
Speaker 2: Because your gun instinct is good because nobody knows more
Speaker 2: than you what you should do in this situation. And
Speaker 2: even if you don't know, I will be with you
Speaker 2: in the foxhole of your not knowing. That's love, that's
Speaker 2: a wisdom, right. But not fixing it, you see, fixing
Speaker 2: is what we do for us. I'm uncomfortable with your
Speaker 2: uncomfortable feelings. I'm gonna fix it so I feel better.
Speaker 1: Uh huh right, love, Yes, tell you, oh, same until
Speaker 1: you hit me like a ton of break, but same, same.
Speaker 2: And how do I recognize you? Because I was you?
Speaker 2: I was you. Because we're so big hearted, we're empathic,
Speaker 2: we're highly sensitive people. Listen, anyone who's watching this or
Speaker 2: listening to this and is feeling like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is me? Is this terrible? It's not terrible. We
Speaker 2: are good people. We are lovers, we are mothers, we
Speaker 2: are partners. We want to be the best friends and
Speaker 2: the best sisters. We want to do it all right,
Speaker 2: and we want to control it all And it's the
Speaker 2: most loving thing in the world to give that up
Speaker 2: and to let the chips fall where they may, as
Speaker 2: I said, when they're not your mother f and chips
Speaker 2: and that can be difficult to see. So we have
Speaker 2: auto advice giving, which I'm going to tell you what
Speaker 2: to do instead, Right, what are we going to do? Instead?
Speaker 2: We're going to ask expansive questions. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2: If you did know the answer, what would it be?
Speaker 1: Just take a gain, Yes, let them figure out for themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they might be going down a totally different road
Speaker 1: than you would have taken them on with your advice.
Speaker 2: Exactly what you're personal Yeah, right, because fixing is not
Speaker 2: the same as compassionately witnessing or loving.
Speaker 3: Oh god, you have to be so wise to act
Speaker 3: like this. Okay, yes you have to be so aware.
Speaker 2: You do, Yes, you do, you do. But the thing is,
Speaker 2: we get super aware. And I walk you through this
Speaker 2: in the book of like our activation points. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say triggers just because that shit is so
Speaker 2: overused and it's so boring, Like unless you're talking about
Speaker 2: real trauma capital t then it's okay to say triggers.
Speaker 2: But I don't love the whole thing that, like everything
Speaker 2: is triggering people all the time, but we get activated
Speaker 2: activated right where I'm a little tense, my heart is
Speaker 2: beating a little, I'm a little worried about what you
Speaker 2: are aren't going to do. That's about us, right, So
Speaker 2: we need to understand that about us and have compassion
Speaker 2: for why we are. And I walk you through this.
Speaker 2: I walk you through your HFC blueprint. So your high
Speaker 2: functioning codependency blueprint is a relational blueprint, which is like,
Speaker 2: why do we relate in our relationships the way that
Speaker 2: we do, Why do we relate to the world. Why
Speaker 2: do we feel this over responsibility for all the people
Speaker 2: and all the things. Why do we look at people
Speaker 2: as projects to be managed in problems to be solved.
Speaker 2: There's reasons why.
Speaker 3: So do you think people actually walk into relationship as
Speaker 3: to whole healed humans, Andre like, we're going to be
Speaker 3: partner up. I mean, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: I don't know that they walk in that way.
Speaker 3: You're too older to be able to get to that.
Speaker 2: I think so. But I do believe that it's possible
Speaker 2: to have a healthy relationship because what I walk you
Speaker 2: through in the book is we go from codependency to
Speaker 2: enter dependency in our relationships, which is a healthy dependency.
Speaker 2: There is such thing. That's what a healthy relationship is.
Speaker 2: So back to the behaviors. Auto accommodating is the next behavior,
Speaker 2: so where we just are constantly twisting ourselves up in
Speaker 2: a press so we're lighting ourselves on fire to keep
Speaker 2: other people warm. I don't want you to be inconvenienced.
Speaker 2: Although yep, car broke down, don't worry. Take the other car.
Speaker 2: All uber school like, we just can't wait to just
Speaker 2: auto accommodate again because we're always anticipating where there might
Speaker 2: be a problem that we can make not be a problem.
Speaker 1: Is it also because ultimately need people to love us,
Speaker 1: so we're going to make sure these behaviors part of
Speaker 1: that going back to because I need you to love me,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to do these behaviors.
Speaker 2: It's a combination of I wouldn't only just say it
Speaker 2: that way. I would say, we don't want to be
Speaker 2: rejected fear of making other people mad. And what does
Speaker 2: that mean? We don't want to get kicked out of
Speaker 2: the tribe? Yeah, right, so yes, is it ultimately yes,
Speaker 2: valuable and we don't want to be left. We don't
Speaker 2: be left, It's true. I mean there is abandonment stuff
Speaker 2: there too. We also can't take it when we feel
Speaker 2: like things are out of control. So what people don't
Speaker 2: talk about with any kind of codependency is that it
Speaker 2: is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes.
Speaker 2: I mean it just is overt. It's an overt or
Speaker 2: covert meaning it's an obvious grab for control, or it's
Speaker 2: like a stealthy not grab for control. Yes, where it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be better if did this, Like if not
Speaker 2: really saying truthfully how you feel about it, but guiding
Speaker 2: something this way, omitting information if it's going to make
Speaker 2: somebody mad, finding a way to you know, the next
Speaker 2: one from auto accommodating which is kind of in the moment.
Speaker 2: Then we have the planning where you're proactively, like planning
Speaker 2: for the future when you know you're going to be
Speaker 2: with somebody difficult.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're prepping.
Speaker 2: You're prepping, okay, like how you're going to behave and
Speaker 2: how you're not going to have. So Uncle Bob is
Speaker 2: coming to the party, and so is Uncle Jim and
Speaker 2: they hate each other. So Uncle Bob is always the troublemaker.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to make sure he doesn't sit near him,
Speaker 2: and I'll make sure you get the booze that he likes,
Speaker 2: so that won't be a problem. So instead of just
Speaker 2: saying to Uncle Bob, either act like a normal person
Speaker 2: or don't come to the party, we do this. We
Speaker 2: do this anticipatory as planning.
Speaker 3: Don't we all do that? I mean, even though you're
Speaker 3: so healed, do you still do that?
Speaker 1: If you're going to have a family function you knew
Speaker 1: there were some problems, would you would you not prep
Speaker 1: for it even though you know the truth.
Speaker 2: What's interesting is for me, at this point in my
Speaker 2: life and at this point in my recovery, I would
Speaker 2: have already told Uncle Bob to get a shit together
Speaker 2: or he's not coming to the party like lovingly, but
Speaker 2: I would have been like, if you don't want to,
Speaker 2: I'm not doing this thing. So if you don't want
Speaker 2: to see Uncle Jim, you're both coming. And it is
Speaker 2: your right to not come, right, and I respect that right.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to be a referee at my
Speaker 2: own party when I have things that I have to
Speaker 2: be doing good and i'd like to make a simple
Speaker 2: request that you get your shit together. Thank you.
Speaker 3: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Maybe I wouldn't say it just like that, but yes,
Speaker 2: you get the point. But anticipatory planning, all of these
Speaker 2: things that we're talking about take up so much bandwidth
Speaker 2: they do, it's exhausting. We're also overfunctioning so now, and
Speaker 2: this is a very common dynamic and codependent relationships, the
Speaker 2: overfunctioning and the underfunctioning. And I used to say, because
Speaker 2: it's true that in my twenties I could take a
Speaker 2: perfectly capable man and turn him into an underfunctioner and
Speaker 2: let two weeks or less, two weeks or less by
Speaker 2: just being like, I got it. You just handle everything
Speaker 2: I have on back, don't worry, so everything's fine. I
Speaker 2: got it. Just so much of I got it you
Speaker 2: get to a point where people are like, Okay, just
Speaker 2: got it. Who cares? Like, I'm so over arguing because
Speaker 2: another element of high functioning codependency is being bad receivers.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, now I think a lot of women are
Speaker 1: gonna have to shake that one off a little bit
Speaker 1: because that's so true.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, like we're not that great, So let's talk about.
Speaker 1: It a lot areas on her relationship too, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: all relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just even your romantic relationships. We're talking
Speaker 2: about how hard it can be to let other people
Speaker 2: and this is very difficult when you run a business.
Speaker 2: How many of the women who take my courses, especially
Speaker 2: on high function codependency and join my because I have
Speaker 2: a whole community now on this are exhausted because they
Speaker 2: have these in messed relationships with the people who work
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 3: Okay, so like how so what would that play out to?
Speaker 2: Look Like? We're like, you're overly involved in your assistance
Speaker 2: bad divorce.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you're weighing in all the time, you.
Speaker 2: Weigh in, and then she's calling you on the weekend
Speaker 2: about it, she's crying, she's in an emergency situation.
Speaker 1: You're too deep in so now if anything goes wrong
Speaker 1: with work, now you're kind of screwed across the board
Speaker 1: because completely so intertwined.
Speaker 2: Exactly because you don't have professional and personal boundaries place
Speaker 2: protecting your business or protecting your peace of mind.
Speaker 1: And I feel like I have fallen victim to that
Speaker 1: in so many areas in my life so long that finally,
Speaker 1: at forty one, I'm just now realizing, Okay, boundaries with people,
Speaker 1: you cannot let it all spaghetti over except for a
Speaker 1: few that you like, really know are your core core,
Speaker 1: but like you do have to keep because if it
Speaker 1: goes south, you're screwed.
Speaker 3: Everybody's screwed.
Speaker 2: Yes. And the thing is, if you don't have good
Speaker 2: boundaries at work, it's same thing like being a psychotherapist.
Speaker 2: If you don't have good boundaries with your clients, under
Speaker 2: the guise of being nice or trying to overgive, you're
Speaker 2: just being a bad therapist. Right. It's not good for
Speaker 2: your clients to do that, and it's not good for subordinates,
Speaker 2: for people who work for you, for you to have
Speaker 2: this enmeshed relationship with them, it's confusing. They're like, are
Speaker 2: we friends? Well not really, because you're like my boss
Speaker 2: and you're actually paying my you know you're paying me.
Speaker 2: This is my livelihood. It's very confusing, but I've seen
Speaker 2: it over and over again. Of these blurred boundaries is
Speaker 2: personal and professional again because so much of the time
Speaker 2: when you're an HFC, you're an mpath so you feel
Speaker 2: your assistance pain. Yeah, you care for people. You want
Speaker 2: her to be happy. And yet this is where we
Speaker 2: need to learn what is my side of the street
Speaker 2: and what is their side of the tree. And that's hard,
Speaker 2: but it's so important, and the over and underfunctioning. I
Speaker 2: just want to go back to that for one second.
Speaker 2: This creates a lot of resentment for us because now
Speaker 2: we're like exhausted, we're burnt, we're just bleeding energy. And
Speaker 2: then we're like, ugh, Betty is so entitled, But we.
Speaker 1: Gave her that ability to hold that kind of power
Speaker 1: in space.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. Is Betty entitled? Or am I
Speaker 2: just serving myself up on a silver platter and blaming Betty?
Speaker 3: Yeah, because she's doing her that correct.
Speaker 2: And maybe she believes what I'm saying. Maybe she believes
Speaker 2: that I'm fine with it when I say I got
Speaker 2: it right. Problem, why I say that if it's not.
Speaker 1: True, and so many people are just operating out of
Speaker 1: trauma responses that I feel like it actually becomes their
Speaker 1: whole personality, you know when you especially, I've noticed this.
Speaker 1: Everyone has little T trauma, like you say, but like
Speaker 1: if you were born into big T trauma, like and
Speaker 1: I do believe everyone eventually gets big T trauma, But like,
Speaker 1: if you start off with big T trauma and that
Speaker 1: is your entrance into the world, you don't really realize
Speaker 1: that life isn't always traumatic and that you develop these
Speaker 1: skill sets and the survival mechanism that then kind of
Speaker 1: becomes your personality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's yes, But what's interesting about this with
Speaker 2: trauma response? Think about one of the telltale signs is
Speaker 2: being hypervigilant right about danger and about whatever. But when
Speaker 2: you think about being in HFC, we are always hypervigilant.
Speaker 2: We're always aware of what's going on in this room.
Speaker 2: I know exactly where everyone is in this room. I
Speaker 2: know exactly what you look like, what you look like,
Speaker 2: what who's doing what like even right now? And if
Speaker 2: if it's this is part of the skill set that
Speaker 2: becomes your superpower when you get into recovery. Right for
Speaker 2: being a high functioning codependent, which I'll walk you through
Speaker 2: in the book, and one next right action at a time.
Speaker 2: Then these things really become a superpower when we're doing
Speaker 2: it to control people in our environment, when we're doing
Speaker 2: it to control the outcome for other people, when we're
Speaker 2: inserting ourselves as the answer to all other people's problems.
Speaker 2: I mean, think about what we're really doing, and how painful.
Speaker 2: For me this was a very humbling part of the realization.
Speaker 2: And this was in my twenties, and this is when
Speaker 2: this whole concept came to me. And it took decades
Speaker 2: to write about it because I needed to see it
Speaker 2: over and over and over again, like tens of thousands
Speaker 2: and hypothesis exactly and teach it for years to really
Speaker 2: see what is the truth about this behavior. But the
Speaker 2: end of the end for me was I couldn't believe
Speaker 2: how I really thought that my motivation was love only.
Speaker 2: I really thought I was like mother Terisa, like that
Speaker 2: I just loved people. I just cared about people, and
Speaker 2: I do love people and care about people. But it
Speaker 2: wasn't that pure because what came out this was all
Speaker 2: around a situation that my sister was in, an abusive
Speaker 2: situation that she was in that I was trying to
Speaker 2: take on so badly and trying to get her to leave.
Speaker 2: It was like five alarm fire for me every day
Speaker 2: in my life, just being like what else can I
Speaker 2: throw at this situation to make it, to make her leave,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: To get this outcome correct exactly.
Speaker 2: To get because it was so distracting and it was
Speaker 2: so distressing and my therapist I was crying and it
Speaker 2: was like, what am I going to do? I've done
Speaker 2: everything that I can. And she said, Terry, let me
Speaker 2: ask you something. What makes you think you know what
Speaker 2: Jenna needs to learn in this life?
Speaker 1: And people could say, well, it's because these are you know,
Speaker 1: these are moral codes. There's like the Golden rules, Like
Speaker 1: there's like, you know, you can find proof of laws
Speaker 1: and rules you're supposed to follow, but ultimately that's not it.
Speaker 2: Well, she was basically saying you don't know. And I
Speaker 2: first resisted and was like, well, I think we can
Speaker 2: agree she doesn't need to do it in a house
Speaker 2: in the woods with a crack addict who is abusive
Speaker 2: and no running water. I mean, I feel like can
Speaker 2: we agree to that? And she was like no, because Sarah,
Speaker 2: I'm not God.
Speaker 3: Is what she needs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how do you know when someone's actually in
Speaker 1: a bad situation that that's where they're supposed to be.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, it's their situation. So I had
Speaker 2: done everything I could to get her out, you know,
Speaker 2: and I in the end, my therapist help me see
Speaker 2: that what I need. So I didn't even know I
Speaker 2: had to choice, is my point. Okay, I thought I
Speaker 2: was doing what I must do as a good sister,
Speaker 2: which was to never quit. And she was like, that's
Speaker 2: not necessarily what you need to do, she said, but
Speaker 2: you can draw boundaries. You don't need to let her
Speaker 2: talk to you about this, And that's what I did.
Speaker 2: So she helped me walk me through. This is the
Speaker 2: beginning of my whole boundary journey right where I walked
Speaker 2: me through and I was able to say to her, Lissa,
Speaker 2: I love you, and if you ever want to get out,
Speaker 2: I will always be your person, right because that's normal.
Speaker 2: I can help her in a normal way, not taking
Speaker 2: over the whole thing. But I also can't you know,
Speaker 2: I can't have you talking to me about this guy
Speaker 2: every day. It's so painful for me. And she said,
Speaker 2: I totally understand. I love you too, and maybe we
Speaker 2: talked about twice in nine months, and we've been talking
Speaker 2: quite a bit. And then she called me up and said,
Speaker 2: are you're still my person? And I was like putting
Speaker 2: on my sneakers right now, jumped in my car, went
Speaker 2: and got her. She got back into school, she got sober.
Speaker 2: And here's the most important thing is that instead of
Speaker 2: Terry being the hero of Jenna's story, Jenna is the
Speaker 2: hero of her own story.
Speaker 3: You know, that's hard to wait for someone to be
Speaker 3: their own hero.
Speaker 1: Why do we think that we have the Why do
Speaker 1: we think we should be the hero?
Speaker 3: Why it want to be like? Why do we come
Speaker 3: in like that?
Speaker 2: It's not I don't think it's a conscious thing about
Speaker 2: wanting to be the hero, right. I think it's that
Speaker 2: it's a knee jerk reaction to their pain. And we
Speaker 2: are so allergic to other people's pain that we just
Speaker 2: needed to stop right now.
Speaker 3: Why are we so allergic? Because it our traumas?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's control, it's control, it's we don't like
Speaker 2: the way it makes us feel. And so so much
Speaker 2: of what I're walking through in this book is we
Speaker 2: can learn to tolerate the way that we feel, and
Speaker 2: that it's very loving to tolerate the way that we feel.
Speaker 2: And even if, even if people listening, if the only
Speaker 2: thing you changed from listening to this interview is that
Speaker 2: instead of auto advice giving, you start asking expansive questions
Speaker 2: in your relationships, your life will change. Your relationships will
Speaker 2: change because when we control everything, people don't really know us, right,
Speaker 2: because we don't want to be vulnerable. So the lack
Speaker 2: of receiving, the lack of allowing, the lack of surrender,
Speaker 2: because that's really what's on the other side of recovery
Speaker 2: from being an HFC is surrendering in the most expansive
Speaker 2: and beautiful and delicious way, like a whole different way
Speaker 2: of living. When you just go, that's not for me
Speaker 2: to control. I'm going to pour my time and energy
Speaker 2: into nourishing myself. I call it self consideration because it's
Speaker 2: so much more than like self care, which sounds like
Speaker 2: a manicure, you know, or self love, which is even
Speaker 2: more and more Nobody even knows what that is. So
Speaker 2: self consideration is something that we can actually look at
Speaker 2: and go, what is self consideration? Do I have the
Speaker 2: bandwidth to help this person who just asked me if
Speaker 2: the answer is no, then I'm going to say.
Speaker 1: No, do I have the bandwidth to help this person?
Speaker 1: Because people are going to come in all the time.
Speaker 1: But it's like you have to weigh it out, like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's not everyone is yours to save. If it's rejection
Speaker 1: in your body, if you're not feeling a full body, yes, right,
Speaker 1: then it's a no.
Speaker 2: Yes. And because we're human beings and relationships with other
Speaker 2: human beings, there's gonna be plenty of times with family
Speaker 2: and partners and husbands and whoever. Of course, we're still
Speaker 2: gonna do shit we don't want to do, because that's
Speaker 2: called being a human being on planet Earth. But if
Speaker 2: we're doing it consciously. When my husband wants to get
Speaker 2: tickets to go see the opera, let's say, because he
Speaker 2: loves all that shit and I hate it, I go,
Speaker 2: not the Grand Old Opera, the actual opera. And I
Speaker 2: don't hate it. I just don't. It's not my thing.
Speaker 2: But he loves it. So I make a conscious choice
Speaker 2: to go, get dressed up, have a great time. I
Speaker 2: never make him feel bad about it. I always he
Speaker 2: will not listen to this, I imagine, but he always
Speaker 2: thinks I had a great time, and I do that
Speaker 2: because that's a conscious choice. His happiness matters to me,
Speaker 2: and he does the same for me on a million things.
Speaker 2: So I think part of what we're talking about is
Speaker 2: how do we move into making these decisions, whatever they are,
Speaker 2: mindfully and consciously. And the first thing we have to
Speaker 2: do is just slow down a breathing. Just so hard
Speaker 2: to slow down taking a breath, but you can do it.
Speaker 2: It's about having a meditation practice. I've been teaching meditation
Speaker 2: for years. I've got a million pre things on inside timer.
Speaker 2: It's like I've been doing meditation for twenty years and
Speaker 2: I've been teaching it for fifteen. Like anybody, if I
Speaker 2: could learn to meditate, and I was a total type
Speaker 2: a psycho, anybody can trust me. I really tried to
Speaker 2: get the hack. I was like, there's it's gotta be
Speaker 2: a weekend thing I could do. No, that wasn't It
Speaker 2: should be years to exactly. So, we want to slow down,
Speaker 2: we want to breathe, and we want to really make
Speaker 2: decisions from a mindful place. Because it doesn't mean we
Speaker 2: can't compromise. Of course we will, but it's not our
Speaker 2: knee jerk reaction is not to we don't want it
Speaker 2: to be to self abandon right. We don't want to
Speaker 2: say yes when we want to say no, right under
Speaker 2: this guise of like being nice, because we all know
Speaker 2: that shit isn't nice. That is misleading. It's giving the
Speaker 2: people in our lives corrupted information about who we are.
Speaker 2: And then we're like, I feel so lonely even in relationships.
Speaker 2: So I wonder why there's like an existential crisis that
Speaker 2: comes if you do this for long enough, where we've
Speaker 2: taken so many for the team that the team doesn't
Speaker 2: even know who we are. And it's sad when you've
Speaker 2: checked all the boxes that society told us to check
Speaker 2: and make you feel unsatisfied in your fifties and your sixties.
Speaker 2: And this is what I see in my office all
Speaker 2: the time, really, because.
Speaker 1: These women just sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice so they
Speaker 1: can keep this thing going that they've built. That they
Speaker 1: don't even know who they are in the picture, that
Speaker 1: they don't even know the role they're playing or they
Speaker 1: know the role they're playing with. They don't know who
Speaker 1: they actually are.
Speaker 2: Right, and the role yes, and they feel that their
Speaker 2: value is commensurate to their contribution, right, like being utilitarian,
Speaker 2: what have I done for and there's always someone who
Speaker 2: needs something more than us. And I feel like the
Speaker 2: you know, having a kid, wanting to be a good
Speaker 2: role model for your child, It's like, we have to
Speaker 2: have our self consideration has to be at the top
Speaker 2: of our list. It has to be yeah, because nobody
Speaker 2: else can do it. And again, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: we won't do all so many of the things that
Speaker 2: we're doing, but we're just going to do them differently.
Speaker 2: We're going to do them as a mindful choice and
Speaker 2: not as a reaction. Because if it's a compulsion, because
Speaker 2: people are like Terry, I'm just nice, what's wrong with
Speaker 2: being nice? And I'm like, dude, if you can't not
Speaker 2: do it, you're not being nice. That's a compulsion. That's
Speaker 2: a compulsion like any other compulsion. So I think we
Speaker 2: have to really look at our behavior not from the
Speaker 2: negative point of view, from the point of view of like,
Speaker 2: how do I want to feel? And is what I'm
Speaker 2: doing going to get me to feel the way that
Speaker 2: I want to feel. Because we all want to be seen, Yep,
Speaker 2: we all want to be heard. We all want to
Speaker 2: be known, and ultimately, what you think, how you feel,
Speaker 2: and what you want matters, but it has to matter
Speaker 2: to you more than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels.
Speaker 3: And that's literally putting yourself first.
Speaker 2: It is, And we've been just indoctrinated into this belief
Speaker 2: that that makes you selfish and mean and full of
Speaker 2: yourself and have a big head and all this other
Speaker 2: crap and what we're really talking about, because you know
Speaker 2: how it is when you're frazzled, When you're frazzled, when
Speaker 2: you're running out of steam, when you're your bandwidth is down.
Speaker 2: How nice are you to your husband? You're a little short,
Speaker 2: You're not that nice. How nice are you to your kids?
Speaker 2: Not that nice? Everyone's getting on your nerves right Just
Speaker 2: it's like we're low key just waiting to start a
Speaker 2: fight with anyone. It could be the person online or
Speaker 2: traders could be like, yes, driving in traffic, don't cut
Speaker 2: me off, buddy, even try. It's dangerous today. But you see,
Speaker 2: it's it has a cumulative effect where all of this
Speaker 2: self sacrifice under the guys of being nice ultimately is
Speaker 2: not that nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is so interesting, and it's I finally, I
Speaker 1: still struggle. I know these things, but I still find
Speaker 1: myself struggling with them all the time because I feel
Speaker 1: like the more you learn, then your mistakes get higher,
Speaker 1: Like then you get a harder challenge the next time.
Speaker 2: Do you taill that?
Speaker 3: And did you finish telling the five different ones?
Speaker 2: You have? The So we have the auto advice givings
Speaker 2: of auto accommodating, we have anticipatory planning, we have over
Speaker 2: and underfunctioning, and then we have what was the last
Speaker 2: one we were talking about. I think it's just doing
Speaker 2: stuff for people that they can and should be doing
Speaker 2: for themselves. Yeah, and that's with kids too.
Speaker 3: I was high function codepen. It was funny and I
Speaker 3: still am to this.
Speaker 1: I realized it because I want her to be happy
Speaker 1: so badly, and I want her to have so much
Speaker 1: joy in her life so much that I'm always like
Speaker 1: scanning the situation, like what needs to happen so she
Speaker 1: has the best day, like, and not that that's bad,
Speaker 1: but it's also like, Okay, I don't have to like
Speaker 1: alter things.
Speaker 3: Life can be life.
Speaker 1: You know, she can experience what she needs experience and
Speaker 1: let me try to control it so it tilts.
Speaker 2: Happy exactly, because what ends up happening is that life
Speaker 2: is a mixture of happy and sad and exquisite and horrible. Right,
Speaker 2: this is life. Now, I'm not saying with little kids
Speaker 2: we want them to have horrible experiences. We don't. But
Speaker 2: in order for them to be prepared for life, we
Speaker 2: want to give them deductive reasoning skills. We want them
Speaker 2: to have critical thinking skills. So even with Sonny, just
Speaker 2: start asking the questions. You can still guide and protect,
Speaker 2: but start asking the questions. Listen more than you talk.
Speaker 2: What did you think? Oh, so that happened with your friend?
Speaker 2: So what did you think? What do you think you
Speaker 2: should have done? Or what do you think you should do? Now? Like,
Speaker 2: just don't talk. Kids will tell us, you know, and
Speaker 2: we can guide too. Well, well, I think I should
Speaker 2: punch her in the face. Well let's think about that.
Speaker 2: Let's actually think that through. So if you punch her
Speaker 2: in the face, then what would your teacher say? What
Speaker 2: would your principals say? And then you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: even if it's something kind of outrageous, he tells you
Speaker 2: so much about what the kid is thinking. But we're
Speaker 2: teaching them as we go, as we walk them through.
Speaker 2: And I feel like so much with parenting nowadays, especially
Speaker 2: is exactly what you're saying, Like, we don't want kids
Speaker 2: to suffer at all. We want to make sure but
Speaker 2: that's again, that's about us. That's not what's best for them.
Speaker 2: But you know, Carolyn, that's why you brought it up.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, right, we need to be looking
Speaker 2: at it from a point of viewer. Am I getting
Speaker 2: them ready for life in some way? Or do I
Speaker 2: just want the joy of them being joyful right now? Right?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: You have to like literally this work that you did
Speaker 1: in your book Too Much, which is out and it's
Speaker 1: so good, the knowledge you have gained though the work
Speaker 1: you have put into this. It is just such a
Speaker 1: resource to be able to have you speak about this
Speaker 1: and have this in a book form. Because even as
Speaker 1: you're telling me this and I know this, and I've
Speaker 1: like it's gone through my brain like it's every time
Speaker 1: I hear it, it's like it opens something else up,
Speaker 1: you know, because I've been living for thirty plus years
Speaker 1: the other way.
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, to retrain yourself.
Speaker 1: So how do you retrain yourself to actually turn all
Speaker 1: these h high functioning traits into things that will benefit us?
Speaker 3: How do you retrain it?
Speaker 2: Well? Part of it is the awareness piece. So the
Speaker 2: way that I will key through it in the book,
Speaker 2: the first half of the book is all going in
Speaker 2: before we go out, because this is this is where
Speaker 2: it is, right, It's all what is our internal experience?
Speaker 2: What is our HFC blueprint, which is a relational blueprint,
Speaker 2: So it tells us how life is supposed to be.
Speaker 2: How are you supposed to relate to your partner, How
Speaker 2: are we supposed to relate to friends, family, church, or organizations,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. So we all have a different story exactly.
Speaker 3: How you're born, what your circumstanced.
Speaker 2: Country, culture, trauma, family of origin, religio Religion plays a
Speaker 2: huge role in this too, So you're going to yourself
Speaker 2: look and go, oh, here's my relational blueprint. Now I
Speaker 2: have something to work with. So this whole book is
Speaker 2: the same way that I wrote Boundary Boss, which is
Speaker 2: that there's no one size fits all when it comes
Speaker 2: to boundaries, and there's no one size fits all when
Speaker 2: it comes to the right way to relate to others. Right,
Speaker 2: there isn't I in the book. It's written it's called
Speaker 2: back to you. Right, So I introduced the concept and
Speaker 2: then I immediately say back to you, and there's like
Speaker 2: four questions. I'll be like, right now, think about X,
Speaker 2: Y and Z whatever it is. Because the truth is
Speaker 2: listen anyone reading this book. All of us read books
Speaker 2: on self help because we're like, how is the benefiting?
Speaker 2: Like I would like to put this in place right now, please.
Speaker 2: So that's the way the book is written, so that
Speaker 2: there's hopefully early satisfaction where you're like, Okay, I can
Speaker 2: see how this is going to change my life. I
Speaker 2: start though, with you doing a resentment inventory.
Speaker 3: A resentment inventory?
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh how do you do that? Well?
Speaker 3: How does that want start?
Speaker 2: It's kind of exactly what you think where we all
Speaker 2: know right now, you know, I know who who were
Speaker 2: feeling resentmentords even when you're really healthy, I've been doing that.
Speaker 2: I've had thirty five years of therapy and I've been
Speaker 2: a therapist for twenty seven. So here's the reality that
Speaker 2: you still will nobody's perfect, right, We're still going to
Speaker 2: have these human experiences. So then you start to write
Speaker 2: down this is the person, so probably the top people
Speaker 2: in your life life could be people that you work with.
Speaker 2: Write down who it is and write down what do
Speaker 2: you resemble about, And then we're writing down, how what
Speaker 2: is my fifty percent of this interaction?
Speaker 3: There's the key, what is my part of this?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Because we know why we're mad at them or know
Speaker 1: I would resent them. Yep, you know what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then when you go, oh, my fifty percent is
Speaker 2: my husband has been being late to something repeatedly and
Speaker 2: either I haven't said anything or I haven't mentioned it
Speaker 2: again or whatever the thing is, we look at it
Speaker 2: and go okay, because we need some kind of an
Speaker 2: action that we can take what needs to happen for
Speaker 2: us to feel that like honor that resentment because walking
Speaker 2: around resentful also sucks up so much bandwidth. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: like exhausting it, does you know?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And so then we just slowly, maturely, we use this
Speaker 2: resentment inventory as GPS for you to find what relationships
Speaker 2: in your life need your attention most urgently. Okay, So
Speaker 2: that's like one of the first things that we do.
Speaker 2: Then we're also going to do a whole list of
Speaker 2: what are you tolerating?
Speaker 3: Okay in what way? What are you tolerating in what way?
Speaker 2: In every way?
Speaker 3: How do you even know where to start?
Speaker 2: Well, I walk you through it, so it could be
Speaker 2: at all areas of your life we list, and it
Speaker 2: could be you know, even your home. Let's just say
Speaker 2: in your home, maybe you have a light in your
Speaker 2: office that you hate. Maybe it's like an overhead light
Speaker 2: that's really caustic and you don't love it and every
Speaker 2: time you flip it on it like bothers you you're
Speaker 2: tolerating that light and you could change that light. So
Speaker 2: part of the reason why we do the what are
Speaker 2: you tolerating is because this also dials us into how
Speaker 2: much self consideration we're really living with? Right? What are
Speaker 2: we putting up with? Where? And why? Right? Because there's
Speaker 2: so much of it we could change totally. We just
Speaker 2: don't like a lot of those things that you'll discover
Speaker 2: on the one am I tolerating? Lists?
Speaker 1: Maybe just keep a running list and like when you
Speaker 1: find a sticky spot, you're like, oh, like let me
Speaker 1: look into.
Speaker 3: This, Yeah, what is this feeling?
Speaker 2: Or let me tell the truth? Let me tell the truth.
Speaker 2: How about that.
Speaker 3: There's like layers to get to the truth.
Speaker 1: So sometimes you just like peel off some jackets before
Speaker 1: you finally get to the truth.
Speaker 2: That's so crivered up and we're so taught to not
Speaker 2: yeah right, I don't need to tell you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm from the Northeast, so we're a little
Speaker 2: less than you people. But yeah, where it's like blessed,
Speaker 2: it's art. You're like, oh, you don't like that person?
Speaker 2: Why you're saying that? I mean I literally wrote about
Speaker 2: that in Boundary Box, about how in the South it
Speaker 2: is like an art form of not saying what you're saying,
Speaker 2: I know, doing it so beautifully.
Speaker 1: I know, confusing pleasantly and all with a smile on
Speaker 1: your face, handing your sweet tea, you know, and you're like,
Speaker 1: what does happened?
Speaker 2: At least in New York or Jersey someone's saying thank you,
Speaker 2: they'll actually just say ok you, which I appreciate. I'm
Speaker 2: all down for. I can still work with you. If
Speaker 2: we don't like to try, that's okay. Yeah, at least
Speaker 2: I know where I stand. You know what you stand.
Speaker 2: We're in good shape.
Speaker 1: When did you have your aha moment where you're like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is this? Is it?
Speaker 3: Like this is what I'm dealing with?
Speaker 1: And then has that been your main focus with your
Speaker 1: therapy sessions and with all of your work? Is it
Speaker 1: mainly high function codependency.
Speaker 2: I mean it kind of is, because it's such a.
Speaker 1: Huge thing that is a it's a revelation, it's a
Speaker 1: revolutionary in your own life when it clicks in.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean your your life is a perfect example
Speaker 2: of something where you literally said, I do believe it
Speaker 2: might be in that book.
Speaker 1: I have a guest ap here as a here my
Speaker 1: name is Kindra maybe maybe which but talking about yeah,
Speaker 1: feeling like you were in the iron mask.
Speaker 3: I felt like I was on an iron mask.
Speaker 2: For all of life and that the realization was like
Speaker 2: a key and you can't even believe that you like
Speaker 2: had the key, and I feel like you were so
Speaker 2: not alone in that. And for me, I had a
Speaker 2: similar realization with my situation with my sister yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: where I didn't realize I had a choice, right, I
Speaker 2: literally didn't. I thought to only be a good sister,
Speaker 2: I could only never give up and just be a
Speaker 2: bloody pope on the ground and keep going like there's
Speaker 2: another thing, Maybe there's one more thing I could try
Speaker 2: to do to get her out of there. As opposed
Speaker 2: to being let off the hook by my therapist because
Speaker 2: she's like Terry, it's not that you shouldn't save your sister.
Speaker 2: It's that you can't, like it's actually not possible. It's
Speaker 2: so hard, It.
Speaker 3: Is so, so so hard to learn.
Speaker 1: So I had some friends go through a divorce and
Speaker 1: it like wrecked my world because it was messing up
Speaker 1: my world and it wasn't going down the way I
Speaker 1: needed it to go down, and I like super inserted
Speaker 1: myself into the situation and it was not my place.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 1: And I really did have to like learn this lesson
Speaker 1: because you think I'm a best friend. I'm a friend.
Speaker 3: I care. I'm supposed to like get in there. You're not.
Speaker 2: No who knew. But what you can do instead is
Speaker 2: learn to sit with your discomfort.
Speaker 3: I was so uncom I mean, I'm finally just now
Speaker 3: accepting it, but it was it was.
Speaker 2: So But how funny is that it's someone else's divorce.
Speaker 2: You literally just said, I'm finally just out accepting it.
Speaker 3: Finally exactly my feelings.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: And Terry, I thought I had like elevated to this
Speaker 1: next level of understanding and like had gotten this wisdom.
Speaker 3: Oh no, just got a bigger trigger.
Speaker 1: Trigger got a bigger rub, and I was like, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm going back down to ground zero.
Speaker 3: I got to start over on learning this.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, let's refrain, because here's the thing.
Speaker 2: Every level of your evolution that you get to, you
Speaker 2: will be challenged. And so what happened is you got
Speaker 2: to another level of your evolution. You really did through
Speaker 2: your realizations, through your understanding of self, through your understanding
Speaker 2: of your relational patterns. This threw you for a loop
Speaker 2: because they were close friends, and because the part of
Speaker 2: you that has been conditioned to feel like, be loyal,
Speaker 2: don't give up on people, like listen, your heart is
Speaker 2: in the right place to end. It's not your side
Speaker 2: of the street, I know, and it's okay to say, like,
Speaker 2: let's talk about what we can do instead?
Speaker 3: What would we do? What's the correct way to handle
Speaker 3: that situation?
Speaker 2: I mean, part of it is to you ask the
Speaker 2: people in your life, how can I best support you
Speaker 2: right now? What would feel? And be supportive? Let people
Speaker 2: tell you instead of projecting your own fears. All of
Speaker 2: us do it. But when that really changed my life,
Speaker 2: when I started asking people how can I best support
Speaker 2: you right now? From my husband, to my sons to whomever,
Speaker 2: I stopped having a guess. And I also stopped interjecting
Speaker 2: or like sticking myself in the middle of it, of
Speaker 2: how I would want because this is that we love
Speaker 2: people the way we want them to love us, and
Speaker 2: we come out and we know this. We treat people
Speaker 2: the way we want them to treat us, so it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily the way that what they need. So your
Speaker 2: friend might have said, I need you to let me
Speaker 2: vent complain and cry about it and stop giving me suggestions.
Speaker 2: I don't need them. I'm not taking them. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: figure it out. This is my divorce, this is my life.
Speaker 2: I will figure it out. And this is a lot
Speaker 2: of the scripts that I share in the book, too,
Speaker 2: is how do we tell people? How do we change ourselves?
Speaker 2: And then how do we tell people? If you have
Speaker 2: a friend, because I feel like HFC is traveling pacts.
Speaker 2: If you have a friend who is auto advice giving
Speaker 2: to you and it doesn't feel good and you don't
Speaker 2: want it, you learn to say, hey, listen, I know
Speaker 2: that I've come to you in the past a lot
Speaker 2: for advice, but right now I'm really trying to really
Speaker 2: develop my own ability to decide. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: talk about something, but I'm not looking for any input,
Speaker 2: So can you just be compassionate and just let me
Speaker 2: vent or let me talk about it without you giving
Speaker 2: me your two We can ask for what we need.
Speaker 2: We're so busy trying to control other things though when
Speaker 2: we're actively HFC that we're not very good at asking
Speaker 2: for what we need because we're all like, I'm fine,
Speaker 2: it's good, it's all good. You're like, that's not life.
Speaker 2: It's not all good. It's not all good.
Speaker 1: And say, like, M with a friendship, you just decide
Speaker 1: that you don't align on like whatever, like it's not
Speaker 1: my life to live. But say we didn't align, it
Speaker 1: didn't go the way I wanted to do. Is there
Speaker 1: a time where it's good to give space and just
Speaker 1: be like, hey, I love you, but I know you
Speaker 1: got to go in your journey and I go on mine,
Speaker 1: And like you'd stop interjecting is that called for? Because
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes we think we got to stay, stay, stay,
Speaker 1: when really it's not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not the right thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're What you're actually asking is can we
Speaker 2: grow friendships? And the answer is of course. And how
Speaker 2: much of the time do we have friendships that I
Speaker 2: call historical handcuffs where we're just we got all this history,
Speaker 2: we're like kind of like family. I feel like I
Speaker 2: got to be in this thing forever. And if it's
Speaker 2: a distant one and you don't see them a lot, fine,
Speaker 2: who cares. But I really feel like it's important that
Speaker 2: whoever's in your VIP section VIP right, whoever has access
Speaker 2: to your most tender heart, these have to be people
Speaker 2: who are emotionally trustworthy. They have to be people who
Speaker 2: add value to your life, not just our obligations. And
Speaker 2: I realized in my late twenties going into my early thirties,
Speaker 2: when I started doing all these change, all this work
Speaker 2: and all these changes, that like I had these obligatory
Speaker 2: relationships that I kept going. I was literally the one
Speaker 2: keeping these friendships that were not satisfying to me going
Speaker 2: because I was so dutiful and I felt so obligated
Speaker 2: and guilty about everything. My therapist was like, how about
Speaker 2: you just stop getting in touch with that person. Let's
Speaker 2: see what happens. I can't even tell you how many
Speaker 2: how many? Yeah, Like, no big fanfare.
Speaker 3: It's not a big deal to be we don't need to.
Speaker 2: Have a breakup conversation. And maybe we do. But the
Speaker 2: thing is She's like, why do you keep calling that person?
Speaker 2: You don't really want to be friends with them anymore?
Speaker 2: And I was like, I have no idea. And when
Speaker 2: I stopped a lot of that, it just naturally came
Speaker 2: to its conclusion. So I feel like that's possible too.
Speaker 2: And then sometimes we need to also if people become toxic,
Speaker 2: if they're addicted, if they're addicted to drama, whatever the
Speaker 2: thing is, sometimes we have to take space from friendships too,
Speaker 2: and that's okay as well. So I really have to say, though,
Speaker 2: I as a therapist, I've seen female friendships be as
Speaker 2: complicated or more so than romantic relationships. The number of
Speaker 2: women when I go speaking gigs around the country, around
Speaker 2: the world, the number of women who say to me,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm in this relationship, this friendship, and
Speaker 2: I just have to break it off. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: have you had a conversation like no, no, no, she's
Speaker 2: not somebody you could talk to. I'm like, dude, trust me,
Speaker 2: if you don't do it with this person, there's going
Speaker 2: to be another person. Because our healing is in the
Speaker 2: asserting of ourselves.
Speaker 3: Been the breaking of the path, yes.
Speaker 2: And telling the truth like hey, this friendship hasn't been
Speaker 2: healthy for a long time. I love you, I'll always
Speaker 2: value what we've had, and I think it's time we
Speaker 2: go our own separate ways.
Speaker 1: And then moving forward in your relationships of being just
Speaker 1: an honest, upfront person and not sacrificing yourself to try
Speaker 1: to guess what this person needs from you. Like that,
Speaker 1: I feel like, how has your life changed since you
Speaker 1: have become so aware of this?
Speaker 3: And like, how does a life actually change?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like there's probably a season where it's
Speaker 1: a little chaotic and you're learning this changing habits, and
Speaker 1: you don't probably feel the progress or success of it
Speaker 1: yet probably takes a while to catch up when you
Speaker 1: finally are living in recovery.
Speaker 3: How does your life change?
Speaker 2: Well, what you're describing first is what I call the
Speaker 2: in between. Yeah, we're like, we can't just mindlessly do
Speaker 2: the old shit because it doesn't work and we know
Speaker 2: too much. We haven't yet mastered the new shit, so
Speaker 2: we're sort of like, well, I got no skills, I
Speaker 2: don't know what's happening, but I know this isn't right right,
Speaker 2: and I know I can't insert myself and I know
Speaker 2: I have to go back and tell this person. I'm
Speaker 2: going back on my word because I don't. I do
Speaker 2: not have the bandwidth to do this or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: And all those things will make you uncomfortable when you
Speaker 2: get on the other side, and you will. But it
Speaker 2: is a discipline. It's just like anyone who's in recovery,
Speaker 2: where it's a daily discipline, you will have so much
Speaker 2: more enner piece. And this is really what we want.
Speaker 2: We just want to put our heads down at night
Speaker 2: and feel like, you know what I did enough today,
Speaker 2: I am enough, Everything's okay, get a good night's sleep
Speaker 2: rather than ruminating or worrying about things, and you become known,
Speaker 2: like actually known, being a high functioning codependent. What I've
Speaker 2: seen in my practice is that it creates a glass
Speaker 2: ceiling of our own making in our professional lives and
Speaker 2: in our personal lives. Because you can't serve two bosses, right,
Speaker 2: the people pleasing boss and the actual authentic cue boss.
Speaker 2: You can't do both. There's not enough hours in the
Speaker 2: day to do that, right. So I see that there's
Speaker 2: this glass ceiling, and we get to a point of dissatisfaction.
Speaker 2: A lot of times that happens perimenopause and menopause, where
Speaker 2: women just hit a wall where they're like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: all those other bullshit that we're dealing with. We're like,
Speaker 2: I cannot, can't with all these people and do not
Speaker 2: want to. But there's an extreme. The cycle gets extreme
Speaker 2: where we give too many f's for too long with
Speaker 2: too many people, and then you hit the wall and
Speaker 2: you're like, no f's for anybody.
Speaker 1: Right, So you're trying to help people not hit the extremes,
Speaker 1: correct identify the sooner so you could start exactly cleaning
Speaker 1: it up.
Speaker 2: You don't have to do that, and hey, if you're
Speaker 2: there right now, don't worry. There's a way back to
Speaker 2: the middle. But in that middle, people know who you
Speaker 2: are and all of your original and juicy and beautiful
Speaker 2: ideas and your self assertion. Right you're negotiating for your wants, desires, needs,
Speaker 2: telling the truth about what your deal breakers are, what
Speaker 2: your limits are, what is the shit you are not
Speaker 2: putting up with from people?
Speaker 3: And maybe you had to learn it.
Speaker 1: Maybe all that HFC high function could hfping paid off
Speaker 1: because now you know your limits?
Speaker 2: Yes, very well, Yes, I think listen, we do have
Speaker 2: to learn it because what we're doing is that we've
Speaker 2: learned in life, how to be right? Our family's of
Speaker 2: origin taught us, how are we supposed to be? What
Speaker 2: does it mean to be a good woman? What does
Speaker 2: it mean to be a good mom and a good
Speaker 2: partner and a good friend and a good citizen all
Speaker 2: the things? And now because we reveal the downloaded blueprint
Speaker 2: or relational blueprint, and we go, oh, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't agree with that? Like I don't. That doesn't I
Speaker 2: don't think I have to give the shirt off my
Speaker 2: back to literally anybody to be a good person. Right,
Speaker 2: we have all of these ways, this messaging for women
Speaker 2: in particular, especially in the US, of like how we're
Speaker 2: supposed to be right? And we you have to decide
Speaker 2: do we agree with that? Because I know that you
Speaker 2: can be loving and authentic and real and get done
Speaker 2: what you want to get done in this life by
Speaker 2: not having a disease to please other people. That's what
Speaker 2: this book is doing, is curing you from overfunctioning, overgiving, overfeeling,
Speaker 2: over controlling, and people pleasing because none of those things
Speaker 2: are good for your relationships, your self esteem, or will
Speaker 2: get you what you want in life. They just doing system.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, forget it. Nervous system is shot when
Speaker 2: you're an agfcy.
Speaker 1: I know shot, Okay, and we'll wrap up because honestly,
Speaker 1: you're amazing.
Speaker 3: Almost hours, very so incredible.
Speaker 1: You have so much wizom today. But what happens in
Speaker 1: your nervous system? Because I used to have chronic nervous
Speaker 1: stomach ye all the time, like twenty four hours of
Speaker 1: the day. I was constantly nervous. My stomach was always
Speaker 1: in a not. I always felt just very very nervous
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 2: Well, that's typical fight flight freeze, fawn. I mean right there,
Speaker 2: this is a reaction to feeling threatened. Right, So, even
Speaker 2: if it's quote unquote low key, even though it's not,
Speaker 2: because having a not in your stomach all the time
Speaker 2: is takes up so much bandwidth, is so exhausting. So
Speaker 2: what this does for you is it you learn I
Speaker 2: have a whole entire section on emotional self regulation, understanding
Speaker 2: our own trigger points, our own activation points, and our relationships.
Speaker 2: What are the things that give us a not in
Speaker 2: our stomach? And let's deal with those original injuries. I'll
Speaker 2: walk you through how to do that understanding your past,
Speaker 2: which is why the whole first half of the book
Speaker 2: we go in before we go out. This isn't just
Speaker 2: about like, so how do I change all my relationships?
Speaker 2: This is about how do I actually understand why I
Speaker 2: am the way I am? And there's so much more
Speaker 2: peace and allowing and you know, there's like magic on
Speaker 2: the other side of not thinking. We have to create
Speaker 2: reality and control reality all the time.
Speaker 1: So true, man, it's some hard work. But it's like
Speaker 1: this has been a theme coming up lately. It's like
Speaker 1: you've got to do something and you're going to put
Speaker 1: all your energy to it and your life, so you
Speaker 1: might as well work on bettering yourself and figuring this
Speaker 1: out so you can actually have a more prosperous, peaceful.
Speaker 3: Calm existence. You actually can just breathe and enjoy it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and all this fearful stuff can be behind you
Speaker 2: because if not, as you know, because you lived it
Speaker 2: for years. We can live in a state of hyper
Speaker 2: vigilance of like making sure everything is okay. But that's
Speaker 2: not going to be your most blissful, productive or happy state.
Speaker 2: It's just surviving. And we're so past that, like we're
Speaker 2: all okay. You know, it's time to thrive and not just.
Speaker 3: Survive too much.
Speaker 1: By Terry Cole I'm so happy to get to talk
Speaker 1: to you again tomorrow. Okay, this is not actually this
Speaker 1: will be over, but we're doing a panel tomorrow which
Speaker 1: I'm so excited with Justice' leg Julie Solomon.
Speaker 3: We're going to talk about this.
Speaker 1: You're kind of on a little book tour. You have
Speaker 1: the Miastermind going on. Tell us all the things that
Speaker 1: you have going on, because there's a lot happening.
Speaker 2: So many things. I have a Mastermind and actually, if
Speaker 2: anyone is interested in joining the new one it starts
Speaker 2: in January.
Speaker 3: That will be life changing.
Speaker 2: It's called Flourish, So that's actually really fun. It's a
Speaker 2: small group of women where we just spend a year
Speaker 2: together working on your life and your business. Usually entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: or therapists or helpers.
Speaker 3: But for people who don't understand a mastermind.
Speaker 1: I got into this world by kind of just podcasting
Speaker 1: and I met authors who had stuff like this. It's
Speaker 1: an incredible asset to be a part of a Mastermind
Speaker 1: with someone like you because it's for a year long
Speaker 1: where you're checking in with people, you're having conversations, you're
Speaker 1: working through stuff, you're talking, you're forming this community.
Speaker 3: It is literally life changing.
Speaker 1: It is, and it's such a special, random, mystical thing
Speaker 1: that you just have to like find you, you know,
Speaker 1: because it's not like this is just it's a very
Speaker 1: experience to have this opportunity to join a mastermind with
Speaker 1: you and the women that join these masterminds are so
Speaker 1: brilliant too, and working together together and coming together it's
Speaker 1: life changing.
Speaker 2: It really does change lives. And also it's for women
Speaker 2: who want to do what I'm doing. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 2: how do you build a brand? How do you sell
Speaker 2: a book or a three book deal for over a
Speaker 2: million dollars, which is what I did? How do you
Speaker 2: like there's so many How do you start a podcast?
Speaker 2: I've had a pod since twenty fifteen. So again it's
Speaker 2: a combination of what are the psychological ways that we
Speaker 2: get in our own way, so I help you remove
Speaker 2: those things. So it's really it really is psychologically informed,
Speaker 2: of course because I'm a therapist. And then what are
Speaker 2: the structural ways to build a booming business? Because so
Speaker 2: much of the time therapists want they're like they want
Speaker 2: to go from the one on one practice to either
Speaker 2: teaching groups or moving into writing, you know, having more
Speaker 2: of a public image, and so light hearted women coming together.
Speaker 2: It's actually great. And then we meet two times during
Speaker 2: the year in person for three days. So we do
Speaker 2: it in Denver, New York. I think Morocco next year,
Speaker 2: John join.
Speaker 3: I know, I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I will definitely keep that on my radar because
Speaker 1: I want to join your mastermind. I really do be
Speaker 1: so fun, so fun, amazing. Okay, so Mastermind, and then
Speaker 1: you're doing The book is out coming out in October. Yep,
Speaker 1: we got the books in the car. We're actually gonna
Speaker 1: do a little unboxing.
Speaker 2: Yes we are. O my god, I can't even leave
Speaker 2: them first. Look at my books right here, right now.
Speaker 3: This is the perfect place to do it.
Speaker 2: Yes, if people want to get the book, they can
Speaker 2: go to hfcbook dot com. And we have tons of
Speaker 2: bonuses that come with the book that will always come
Speaker 2: with the book. Even though people want to tell you
Speaker 2: should not, you should stop giving the bone why you
Speaker 2: made the bonuses for the book. Just just go get it.
Speaker 2: You're going to love it, love it.
Speaker 1: And then Terry Cole Instagram and all the things. Yep, okay,
Speaker 1: Terry Cole, You're amazing. I always wrop up with leave
Speaker 1: your light. It's a super open ended question. What do
Speaker 1: you want people to know that you.
Speaker 2: Can change your life, Know where you are, no matter
Speaker 2: where you've been. It's never too late, you're not too old.
Speaker 2: You're right on time.
Speaker 3: Then you go get this book too much, and then
Speaker 3: you'll really be right on time. The best, Harry, Thank
Speaker 3: you very much.
Speaker 2: H