WEBVTT - Trump Scraps Bedrock of Climate Rules 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.480 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.800 Effective immediately, We're repealing the ridiculous endangerment finding and terminating 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:20.200 all additional green emission standards imposed unnecessarily on vehicle models 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.200 and engines between twenty twelve and twenty twenty seven and beyond. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.800 It's the most aggressive move by President Trump to roll 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:34.239 back climate regulations. His administration has revoked a key scientific 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.320 finding that's been the central basis for US action to 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:43.440 regulate greenhouse gas emissions and fight climate change. It's undoing 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.040 what's known as the endangerment finding, or ruling from the 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.440 EPA in two thousand and nine under former President Obama 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:56.560 that carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases threaten public health 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.320 and welfare. But Trump says it's all a scam. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:02.840 Don't worry about it because it has nothing to do 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:04.200 with public health. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.759 This was all a scam, giant scam. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:12.240 Former EPA administrator Gena McCarthy says the endangerment finding wasn't 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.480 a political decision. It was the result of a Supreme 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.680 Court ruling that ordered the EPA to conduct an extensive 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.959 scientific process to review whether climate change was a hazard 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:25.280 to health and the environment. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.880 They are trying to make us think that the endangerment 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:35.080 finding it can be nullified just because they wanted to, 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.280 not because the science says so. Are the laws allowed 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:40.039 this to happen. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:45.440 Environmental scientists and experts say that revoking the finding could 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.040 have generational impacts and may speed up the negative effects 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:55.480 of climate change. Attorneys general representing Blue states, environmental groups, 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.560 and healthcare groups say they're planning to sue over the revocation. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.000 Joining me is Michael Gerard, a professor at Columbia Law 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.960 School and director of the Saban Center for Climate Change Law. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.639 Will you explain the endangerment finding? 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:10.600 So? 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.600 The Supreme Court said in two thousand and seven that 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.480 if EPA finds that greenhouse gases posed an endangerment to 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.600 public health and welfare, EPA has the authority to regulate 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.880 them under the Clean Air Act. In two thousand and nine, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.320 EPA issued that endangerment finding, and since then, especially under 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.800 Presidents Obama and Biden, EPA has been regulated greenhouse gas emissions. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.000 What are their reasons for rescinding the endangerment finding? 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.639 They said that it was beyond the authority of EPA 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:47.440 actually to be doing this to be regulating greenhouse gases, 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.480 even though the Supreme Court said they could do that. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:55.240 Now the Trump administration is saying, no, they can't, that 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.960 it's such a big issue, an important issue. THATA does 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.320 and have the authority in less. Congress explicitly says that 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:04.000 they can do that. 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:06.600 And what's the real reason, I mean, what's the reason 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:08.880 behind the Trump administration rescinding it. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.760 The Trump administration is all about maximizing the demand for 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.560 and the supply of fossil fuels. Regulation of greenhouse gas 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.280 emissions gets in the way of that, and so the 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.280 particular regulations they're most focused on were moving toward more 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.720 electric vehicles, which are the main source, the main threat 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.360 to the demand for oil. President Trump says he doesn't 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.880 really believe that climate change is happening, or that it's 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.360 caused by humans, or that it's very bad. So I 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.760 think that's one of the reasons behind what they're doing. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.120 And they think it's bad for the economy to fight 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:40.040 climate change. 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:47.000 How long have scientists been convinced that greenhouse gas emissions 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.160 caused by humans hurt the public's health. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.040 The first science on this was emerging in the late 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.240 nineteenth century. But I would say, it's fair to say 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.000 that by the late nineteen eighties or early nineteen ninety 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:05.720 there was a general scientific consensus about the science of 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:10.120 climate change. When EPA issued the Endangerment Finding in nineteen 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.440 eighty nine, there was a ton of evidence. There's now 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.479 ten tons of evidence about climate change. 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:21.880 Is the Endangerment Finding considered sort of the keystone for 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.479 our environmental regulations? In other words, everything else depends or 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:28.640 rests on it. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.920 Everything that EPA does under the Clean Air Act depends 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.159 on the Engagement Finding. There's some other authorities that the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.120 administration has, but it's it's certainly by far the most 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:39.920 important one. 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.440 Have they gone through the proper procedures for revoking the 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:45.640 Endangerment Finding? 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.280 Well, they did an out say draft plan, and they 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.520 opened it up for public comment, and they then issued 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.960 the final one. So in broad strokes, I'm sure there 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.400 will be challenges to some of the details of the 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.400 procedures that they use, such as did they respond in 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.840 enough detailed all the many public comments that were provided. 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.240 The now disbanded Climate Working Group that wrote the report 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.840 was deemed unlawful in January by a Massachusetts federal court 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.719 because the group met in secret does that have any 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:24.080 bearing on the legality of this recision of the endangerment finding. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:30.440 EPA's initial proposal was to, among other things, rely on 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.360 that report and otherwise say they don't believe climate science, 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.920 or they don't believe that climate change is nearly as 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:41.880 bad of the report you mentioned, who was roundly debunked 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.440 by the scientific community, including the National Academy of Sciences. 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.359 A federal court, as you said, declared that the committee 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.719 was unlawfully formed, but the Department of Energy disbanded the group, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.720 and in this new report, they do not rely on it, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.440 and they in fact don't deny the climate science. They're 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.240 issuing this decision without saying we are wrong that climate 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.159 change is horrible. Okay, maybe it's horrible, but we just 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.560 don't think it's a legal matter that EPA has the 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:10.720 authority to regulate it. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:17.760 Democratic attorneys general, environmental advocacy groups, medical groups say they're 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.000 going to sue over this revocation. Can you give us 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.520 an idea of what the attack might be in the courts. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.880 So, in two thousand and seven, the Supreme Court issued 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.280 this landmark decision Massachusetts versus EPA. They clearly said that 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.960 greenhouse gases are air pollutants within the meaning of the statute, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.400 and that if EPA finds the danger, they have to regulate. 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:46.200 The administration is now going contrary to that. They're relying 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.839 on some new legal doctrines, especially something called the major 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.600 questions doctrine, that even if the words of the statute 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.400 allow an agency to act, they can't unless Congress is 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.960 really really explicit if it's something of large economic and 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.440 political significance. So that's going to be one of the 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.320 major arguments that will be made before the courts. 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.600 Do you think the aim here is to get the 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:14.040 Supreme Court to reverse its finding in that Massachusetts v. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:15.119 EPA case. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.960 Yeah. I think that the Trump administration, or at least 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.400 some of its supporters, do want the Supreme Court to 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:26.680 either reverse the finding in the Massachusetts case or construe 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.640 it very very narrowly so that it no longer means much. 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.120 We're in year two of the Trump administration. Could the 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.720 lawsuits outlive the administration. 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.320 In the ordinary course at the first stage at the 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.480 Court of Appeals, it could take easily a year you're 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.040 in a half to get a decision, and then another 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.080 year or you're and a half to get a decision 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:52.239 from the Supreme Court, so that could outlass the administration. However, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.520 it's also possible that the Supreme Court will take this 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.960 on an expedited basis, which they have done from time 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.040 to time, in which case it could all happen much faster. 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.400 And so, if it happens and the next administration to 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:13.440 come in is democratic administration or an administration that believes 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.320 in climate science, et cetera, et cetera, would it be 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.960 easy or difficult to sort of put it back together. 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.760 That depends on the way the Supreme Court rules. There 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.400 are some ways that the Supreme Court could uphold what 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.680 Trump is doing, but not do it so broadly that 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.520 it would prevent the next administration from acting. There are 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.520 other ways that they could uphold the withdrawal of the 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.160 engangement finding. That would mean the administration could not use 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.880 the Clean Air Act for climate change unless they get 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.000 explicit authorization from Congress. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:49.240 Will this affect the state's ability to regulate pollution? 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.280 The federal government has exclusive authority to regulate motor vehicle 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.480 emissions unless Congress gets a special waiver, which has been 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:01.679 taken away. However, the states have comple control over stationary 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.360 sources like power plants and factories and so forth. So 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.280 this does not affect the ability of states to have 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.120 stronger pollution controls on everything but motor vehicles. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.520 This could turn out to be a red state blue 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.200 state controversy, with the blue state suing and the red 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:26.720 states supporting the administration's actions. Why should this be a 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.520 blue state red state divide. 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.120 Well, it's a combination of things. They right now, the 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.920 Republican Party, as a matter of its doctrine, doesn't believe 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.080 in regulation of climate change, and the Democrats do. And 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.320 so in all these lawsuits you have the red states 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.120 on one side and the blue states of the other. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.920 I mean the underlying There are lots of different underlying reasons. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.480 Some of it is the economies of the state, some 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.280 as some of its ideological reasons. That's a whole other conversation. 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.800 So it was the Saban Center that came out with 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:01.240 these stats that the EPA has already taken more than 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:07.240 forty deregulatory actions so far in this second term, compared 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.280 to almost sixty during the first term. So are they 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:11.520 moving quicker. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.480 Yes, they are. They're being much more aggressive in the 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.800 second Trump administration than in the First, we have a 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.320 website called the Climate Backtracker that keeps track of all 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.000 of this. But Trump two is moving a good deal 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:25.280 faster than Trump one. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.600 They're moving faster. Are a lot of their moves being 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.720 held up in court or not yet. 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.800 So a lot of their moves in cutting back on 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.280 funding have been held up in court and at the 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.200 district court level, and some of that has been reversed 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.600 by the appellic court, some of it hasn't here. Most 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.680 of their regulations substance of regulations as opposed to the 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.560 funding haven't gotten far enough along for there to be 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.640 really litigation. This is one of the first things that 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.240 they have done that has gone all the way through 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.880 the rulemaking process and now is ripe for On. 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.160 A scale of one to ten in terms of damage 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.600 to the environment, how would you rate the seriousness of 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:08.640 this revocation? 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.720 I'd probably give that an eight, because if it survives, 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.360 it does take away the Clean Air Act. But there 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.360 are still other tools that can be used to fight 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.160 climate change. Despite the opposition by the Trump administration, people 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.040 are still opening a lot of solar farms and wind farms, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.160 and buying electric vehicles and doing lots of other improving 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.640 energy efficiency, doing lots of other things that also help 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.400 fight climate change wholly apart from the Clean Air Act? 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.240 Is the footprint of the EPA smaller? Is the staff smaller? 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:41.839 In other words, is the EPA shrinking? 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:49.240 Yes, EPA is shrinking, so are the is the environmental 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.680 unit in the Department of Justice which helps enforce the laws. 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.040 So the Trump administration has worked very hard to diminish 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.559 the effectiveness and size authority of EPA. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.280 Thanks for joining me today. That's Professor Michael Gerard of 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.439 Columbia Law School. He's the director of the Saban Center 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.679 for Climate Change Law. Suing people is not new for 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.920 President Trump. Long before he became president, he used litigation 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.440 as a tool, filing at least sixteen hundred civil lawsuits 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.680 against individuals and businesses, and since taking office for the 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:29.000 second time, Trump has filed suits seeking billions of dollars 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.040 against several news organizations, including The New York Times and 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.080 The Wall Street Journal, JP Morgan Chase and its CEO, 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.680 Jamie Diamond. The pullets are Board, and even the IRS 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.079 and the Treasury. Now, when Trump was sued by two 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.680 co founders of his social media company, he asked a 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.000 Delaware Court to either dismiss the case or delay it 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.679 by four years, saying that having to defend the lawsuits 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.839 would be a distraction from his presidential duties, even though 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.560 turnabout is supposedly fair play. That argument hasn't worked for 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.960 the defendants being sued by Trump. So far, at least, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:11.680 no court has delayed one of Trump's lawsuits because it 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.839 would distract from his presidential duties. Joining me is constitutional 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.400 law expert David Super, a professor at Georgetown Law. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:20.600 Have we had a. 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.840 President before that's filed lawsuits? I mean, in so many 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.920 different areas. It's against media companies, it's against banks, it's 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.800 against the irs. It's a broad range. 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.040 It certainly is, And I am not aware of any 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:42.840 president that has found time to litigate while in office. 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.640 It's a rather big job. And presidents also, I think, 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:53.760 have been sensitive that litigating while their president could send 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.880 the wrong signals and interfere with their ability to lead 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:03.400 the whole country. Trump has not embraced the idea of 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:09.040 leading the whole country, so doing more partisan litigation has 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.000 seemed to fit better with his approach. 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.360 The last case that I remember was the Clinton case. 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.559 What kind of protection if any does the president have 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.600 against civil suits while in office? 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.800 The president's very little protection against civil suits. The Supreme 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.960 Court in Clinton. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:33.520 Versus Jones upind that the president probably could do at 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.520 least the basics of defending a case while in office, 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:39.960 and allowed that case to proceed. 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.640 That case started the series of events that led to 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:49.880 President Clinton's impeachment and certainly caused him enormous political damage. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.560 Whether Miss Jones was seeking to damage in politically or not, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:58.560 it's not clear, but that others eagerly piled on were so. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:04.400 In principle, it is not entitled to sweeping immunity. But 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:10.400 President Trump has claimed that defending lawsuits would be unduly 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:15.040 burdensome to him now that he's president. It's not clear, though, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.720 how it's any less burdensome to bring a lawsuit than 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.400 to defend one, and he seems to be making special 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:24.680 rules just for himself. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.000 I don't know that we've reached the point in any 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:31.520 of these lawsuits where Trump has said, no, I can't 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.160 do that deposition because I'm president and I'm too busy. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.400 But if that happens, what can a judge do? 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.800 The judge can dismiss the lawsuit, although at this point, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.360 the defendants will already have had to spend an enormous 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.040 amount of money the laws. It may already have served 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.360 its purpose of intimidation. Some of these lawsuits have no 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.760 chance of winning anyway. He's suing news organizations for news 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.880 stories that doesn't like. He's suing the Des Moines Register 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:07.920 for a poll and a projection that he doesn't like. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.240 I don't even know what cause of action that is. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.960 So these cases are not intended to win. They're intended 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:18.240 to intimidate. So filing them, forcing the defendants to spend 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:22.880 resources on them, rallying his base against the defendants, and 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.360 then eventually dismissing them when he doesn't want to be 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:31.359 deposed seems likely. Here the courts have authority to impose 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.160 costs on him, but that's probably not that much of 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:35.800 a deterrent. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.200 I mean, there's also the fact that when you're sued 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.000 by the president, there are different kinds of pressures. So 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:48.640 you had ViacomCBS settling a lawsuit, and of course they 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.920 had a pending merger to be approved. 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.000 Yes, and this is in the context of the president's 0:16:55.120 --> 0:17:00.720 unified executive theory, So in priorated ministrations this happened that 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.520 if an add you could imagine the president saying, well, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.880 the people making the decision on your merger are independent 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.120 from me, so they won't be influenced. But this administration 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.119 has made the point that everybody in the executive branch 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.000 must be completely tuned in with the president's preference. So 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:23.160 when he sues or threatens to sue a media organization 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.479 that wants permission for a merger or for licenses of 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.719 some kind, he is effectively telling them that they need 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:36.600 to give him something in exchange for those licenses. It 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:41.960 is a way of supposedly legitimating or legalizing bribe. 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.119 Why shouldn't some of these cases be put on hold 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.520 until Trump's term is over? None of the judges have 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:55.120 allowed any of these cases to be suspended during his presidency. 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.280 Well, it is true for both the president and people 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.680 with Thames against the president, the statutes of limitations run. 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.080 So there's an argument that the president and private party 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.879 should be allowed to file suits, but there should be 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:16.639 then a freeze on the case until after the president 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:22.040 leaves office, having the cases go forward selectively, having the 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.639 president able to extract material and resources from defendants but 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:33.800 not provide the same himself is manifestly unfair and civil 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:38.160 litigation with rare exception is designed to treat both parties 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.480 equally until we have a resolution of the case. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.119 So you mentioned he's suing the IRS. He and his 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.159 two eldest sons filed a lawsuit against the IRS and 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.679 the Treasury seeking at least ten billion dollars in damages 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:57.000 for the unauthorized disclosure of their confidential tax returns, and 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.160 in an amicus brief challenging the suit, group of former 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.239 high ranking government officials said it contains legal flaws and 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.479 risks becoming conclusive litigation. As the president is suing the 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:14.000 government he presides over, this suit hit me as the 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.480 most inappropriate. Is the IRS going to fight the president? 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:22.040 No? Again, The unified executive theory says that the president 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:26.280 absolutely controls the defense against the president's own case. There's 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.640 no way this case can be legitimately litigated now, even 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.840 if someone wanted to, and if it is litigated to judgment, 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.800 a future administration could quite properly demand that the case 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:43.240 be reopened and then any damage award be reversed and returned, 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.760 because there will not be any true adversy here, just 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:53.840 as when a prosecution is filed by someone who is 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:59.919 controlled by the defendant and they throw the case and lose, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.920 or when the jury was tampered with by the defendant, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.280 double jeopardy does not attach because there is never any 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.080 serious risk of losing. In the same way here, the 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:15.720 president's judgment would not be entitled to any weight because 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.800 he controls the defense and never has any possibility of 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:22.040 losing these cases. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.520 The other thing in all these cases, particularly HRS case, 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.600 is that how does he prove damages when his net 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.280 worth has increased since he became president. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.200 These cases are absurd on the merits. You don't need 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.119 to know much about them to know that they are ridiculous. 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:46.280 There's also serious questions about how he could show fault. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.199 The president again claims he runs the entire executive branch, 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.600 who was president when these leaks occurred. Why he was 0:20:55.320 --> 0:21:01.560 so Perhaps he ought to sue literally himself for mismanaging 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.919 the federal government during his first term. He's probably can 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:11.520 afford to pay himself whatever damages are appropriate. Here, the 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:17.880 case is completely ridiculous, and one might be tempted to 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.879 look for an exception if the case was completely compelling. 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:27.000 The claim that Paula Jones filed against Bill Clinton. On 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.359 its face was a serious claim, a plausible claim, and 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.919 you could understand why she would need to file it 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.879 before the statute of limitations expired. If someone were to 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:45.200 do something conventionally harmful to the president, to steal his 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.400 car or something like that, then you could imagine why 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.680 he might need to go to court. But these cases 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.080 are obviously absurd. 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:55.520 I don't think I've ever used the word unseemly, but 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:58.880 I was trying to think of how unseemly it is 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.960 for the President of the United States to be suing 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.680 so often for billions of dollars. It's sort of hard 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.320 to comprehend why, except that he's trying to make a 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.080 political point with these I mean suing, as you said, 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.000 the Des Moines Register for a poll that didn't turn 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.480 out to be right. If every politician sued over a 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:19.840 pole that didn't turn out to be right, the court 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:21.160 to be clogged. 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.120 And both Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris would be very, 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.800 very rich to say how they know Thomas Dewey. But 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.040 the problem people have I'm not trying to understand this. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:36.000 I'm looking for American parallels, and that's wrong. They should 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:41.040 look for international parallels because authoritarian leaders routinely use litigation 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.720 to silence the press. You see this in numerous countries 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.240 around the world, where media outlets simply cease to function 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.960 because they know they'll be sued by the administration and 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.960 they will lose and they will be bankrupted. So they 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.160 either never write about the administration or they move out 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.679 of the country or the fold. And this country is 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.000 following some very unfortunate precedents overseas. Just one more thing. 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.960 The Constitution says the president shall draw a salary at 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:17.440 regular intervals and shall not receive any further emoluments from 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:22.800 the States or the United States. And the term emoluments 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.640 has been hotly debated, but broadly speaking, they're saying the 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.760 president should work for a salary and a salary only. 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:34.240 This is effectively a way of getting more money into 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.919 the president's hand, which the framers very much did not 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.840 want to happen. They wanted the president focused on the 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:45.440 national good. And certainly, when he sues a justice department 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:49.480 that he controls, he's increasing his pay. But when he 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:55.000 sues entities that need his executive brands to give them favors, 0:23:55.040 --> 0:24:00.080 he's also increasing his pay, and that's something the framer 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.640 were acutely aware of. And forhibot It. 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.320 I've been talking to constitutional law professor David super of 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:12.520 Georgetown Law. So the Solicitor General's Office during this second 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:18.480 Trump term is filing unsolicited briefs. In other words, in 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.040 the process of the Supreme Court deciding whether or not 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:24.720 to take a case or not, they're filing these briefs. 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:29.040 They're not really on areas that the United States or 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:33.040 federal government is implicated, and they're on like policy matters, 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.879 like they're doing it more than any other administration. What 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:37.639 are they up to? 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:43.600 The Lesser General's Office regards the Supreme Court as profoundly 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:46.040 sympathetic to their mission and they're trying to get the 0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:49.439 most possible out of it. This is not something that 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:54.280 happened in the nineteen sixties, when the War in Court 0:24:55.000 --> 0:25:00.760 was relatively liberal and we had a liberal It was 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.080 understood that the Court handled what it wanted to handle, 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:07.439 and there are many cases that were presented to the 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.760 War in Court that it didn't take that history could 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:14.600 be very different if it had taken. This administration doesn't 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:19.639 want to do the reverse. It has a majority that 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:23.439 has proven very cohesive and quite reliable for them on 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.679 all but a very small handful of issues, and is 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:32.520 trying to move the ideological framework of law in its direction. 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:36.239