WEBVTT - Ep. 116: Senator Heinrich 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.360 vog bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:26.920 can't predict anything. Okay, We're coming from Washington, d C, 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.120 the nation's capital, and we're joined by a very special guest, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.720 Senator Martin Heinrich. But first, UM, I want to touch 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.520 on something real quick. So the Mediator Podcast Live Tour. 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:48.560 We're coming out to four different cities soon. We have Denver, Colorado, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:54.160 tempor Arizona, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Columbus, Ohio. If you want to 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:58.200 check out about getting your tickets to come meet me, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.760 the Latvian Eagle are actual guests that will be announcing soon. 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:07.320 You can go to www. Dot Mediator dot live and 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.800 get all the info you need. I look forward to 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.760 meeting you and you're how this is how far into 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:15.960 you are on your on your So I'm five years 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.800 into my first Senate term. I spent four years in 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.320 the House before that. You guys like senators get a 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:27.680 nice generous term compared to I would. I would agree. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.520 I think that the House term, the two year term, 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.000 is part of the part of the problem. Um, it's 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.800 really hard to do anything to do any long term 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:39.920 thinking when you're in the House of Representatives, because you 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:41.520 have a two year term. You have a two year term, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.480 you know, a year in and you're already completely consumed 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.480 with your re election. So everyone's gonna be like a 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.480 senator has even longer than the president. But then you guys, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.480 it's not as nice as the Supreme Court justice. Well 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:00.000 you know, I guess everybody has there advantages and disadvantag 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.440 just I like. The thing I like about the Senate 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.200 is as soon as I moved over from the House, 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.960 I was able to take on projects that would have 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.840 a longer time horizon and to really think about more difficult, 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.520 long term problems. And when you think about conservation, you know, 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.839 we have a place, the Vice cald Ea in New 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.880 Mexico that is now in public hands. It's a huge 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.800 success story, but people started working on it a hundred 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.760 years ago, in like nineteen sixt so you need to 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.480 that's when the idea for a bill to do something 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.639 to put that in public hands first took shape. And 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.400 so it's it's good to have the room to think 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.320 big um and you can do that in the Senate. 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.080 You still have to deal with all the day to 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.480 day stuff and the the things that are right in 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.359 front of you, but you can also look out into 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.560 the future and say, what are we going to do 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.799 to get to where we want to be? I wanna, yeah, 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:54.280 I want to get into some of that stuff. I 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:56.200 want to get into some of the details with you 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:00.240 about the thinking on long term conservation projects. But can 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.400 we back up a little bit or back not a 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:07.800 little bit, back way up? Can you walk me through 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.640 sort of how how you're kind of how your career 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.720 went and how you came to be, you know, sitting 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.799 in the US Senate. So like when you became aware, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:22.640 when you became aware of that that would be a 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.320 thing that was possible. I can do that. It won't 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.880 seem particularly planned out or logical to you. Um. So, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.840 I'm an engineer by training, and if I had known 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.760 that I was going to go into public service, I 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.080 would have spent a lot less time taken differential equations 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.080 and heat transfer classes because those who are hard. Um. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.160 But uh, you know, I got interested. I was always 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.160 interested in politics. But there was a moment back in 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.400 the nineties when I had settled down in Albuquerque after college, 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.360 when I really first started thinking about running for office. Well, 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.320 what was it that made you interested in nearing? I 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.000 just like how things work, and I had an aptitude 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.000 for math and science, and probably a high school guidance 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.120 counselor said i've seen your scores, you should be an engineer. 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:15.000 And didn't discover something along the way that that necessarily 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.839 pulled me off that track until after I had the 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.760 degree and settled in New Mexico. Did you start doing 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.480 engineering work? I did right out of the gate. I 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.320 was doing some work out at Air Force Research Labs 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.280 and uh, working on directed energy, which is an area 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.520 lasers and microwave stuff that I still work on today. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.560 From a policy point of view, Yeah, because you got 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.479 into I know, you've got interested in renewables and being 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:42.360 in New Mexico interested in solar Yeah. No, that that too. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.240 I mean that was something that grew out of my 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.320 engineering days and the early nineties a group of us 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.640 built a carbon five or solar car that we raced 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.080 from Dallas to Minneapolis. And that's when I first started 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.599 thinking that, you know, this stuff is scalable. Yea, So 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.200 tell me what happened in Albuquerque? Then when you kind 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:04.240 of had your political uh you know, awakening or you know, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.480 I UM, I decided that I would run for the 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.760 city council. And before that, I worked on some campaigns 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.800 to to get the sort of you know, to understand 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:20.040 how stuff works. UM. And so I ran some campaigns. 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:23.719 I ran a statewide land commissioner campaign that didn't work out. 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.719 I ran I worked for the Speaker of the House 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.080 trying to maintain his majority, and helped sort of man 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.120 not day to day manage, but keep all of his 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.320 candidates moving in the right direction. And that kind of 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.039 gave me the skills to then take on a city 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.200 council race. And that was as far as I was 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.000 looking out towards the horizon. And uh, you know, once 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.880 I was on the council, people started encouraging me to 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.800 run for a congressional seat. Uh. It was a very 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.560 contested seat. It had never been held by a Democrat 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.960 in its history. Uh. And that was two thousand and eight. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.479 I won that seat, and then a few years three, 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.640 a little over two years later, the senior senator retires, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.159 so another Senate seat opens up. So it was all 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.880 sort of very very quick and not not something I 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.440 planned out. I didn't I never planned to be an 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.320 elected official, much less a United States Senator, When did 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.359 you within that, like in your life, when did you 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.960 become kind of aware of the natural world and become 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:33.640 interested in I was an environmentalism conservation. I was hugely 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.680 interested in the natural world as a child. We had 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.640 a small sort of cow calf operation when I was 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:46.520 a kid in Missouri, UM. And when we when we 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.359 didn't have that, we were living at the sort of 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:50.720 the edge of a small town where there were creeks 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.640 and places. I would come home after school and I 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.560 just disappeared into the outdoors. And Uh, I always had 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.080 a strong interest in that. My parents really fostered that. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.080 They thought it was great. Uh. My mom didn't always appreciate, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:06.840 you know, snakes coming home into the house or uh 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.040 the day that my dad brought a tarantula home and 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.680 left it on the kitchen counter and a fish bowl 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:14.520 and by the time she came home, it wasn't in 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.960 the fish bowl anymore. But for the most part, But 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.480 for the most part, they really fostered my interest in 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.040 the outdoors. So did they come from an egg background. Yeah, 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.760 my dad grew up interesting story. He immigrated here in 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.320 the thirties from Germany as a young child. UM. But 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.680 quickly learned to cowboy when he was just becoming a 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:42.600 teenager and had years of history running feed lots and 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.000 running cow calf operations, riding quarter horses. So he was 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.800 a sort of a legit cowboy from Germany in the thirties. Yeah, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.200 got out when the gutting was good. Yeah, they did. 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:55.920 They got out at the right time. I think they 0:07:55.960 --> 0:08:00.760 saw the riding on the wall. His his parents, um, 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:02.480 you know, saw what was going on in lots of 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.800 quarters and said we want a different deal. That's interesting. Yeah, 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.960 so he kind of became a German American cowboy. Yeah, 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.480 exactly right. And then you but did you grow up 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.760 around um, did you grow up around hunting and fishing? 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.120 Were those things you picked up around fishing? My dad 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.280 was great about uh. He he enjoyed trout fishing. He 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:30.400 enjoyed um fishing for you know, warm water fish, catfish 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:35.280 and uh blue girl and stuff like that. But um, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:40.080 he was not a good hunting mentor. Uh. He had 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.200 worked exploration I think in his twenties and thirties for 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.480 Anacona copper and was really into geology and if you 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:47.960 got him out on a hunt, he would want to 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.240 look at rocks on the ground instead of being looking 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:52.800 at at the horizon. Doesn't really lend itself to being 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.079 a good mentor and on that kind that finds more 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.280 arrowheads and exactly right, Yeah, yeah, I have I have 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:05.199 the I have the looking out far away that we're 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.600 looking at the ground tendency. So I tried to teach 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:13.679 myself when I was twelve. Um, didn't have a lot 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.079 of success. And then when I got into my twenties, 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.959 really took it back up again, found some people who 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.720 were good mentors. Was really getting into wanting to control 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.360 my own food. We were growing a lot of food 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.560 at home. Uh. And it just fit into that in 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.560 a way that Um, you know, I think your show 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.840 really appeals to a different demographic of young hunters. And 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:39.640 I saw this when you are in New Mexico for 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.840 the New Mexico Game and Fish their annual fundraiser and 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.600 spoke to that crowd. Uh. It was interesting to me 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.040 to see the sort of new hunter old hunter group 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.520 groupings in that crowd and how demographically different there's this 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.280 younger generation of backcountry hunters with their trucker hats and 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.360 a real focus on food. Um and uh, and that 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.400 that all of that really appealed to me in my 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:09.240 twenties and thirties, and it's been a kind of adult onset. Honey, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.360 do you in this atmosphere that you're in when you're 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:18.360 like in your professional life as a senator in Washington, 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:24.480 d C. How unusual is it? Um? How unusual is 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.880 it to have the background and interest that you have, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.640 the outdoor background interest, Like when you're talking to your colleagues, 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.880 do you find there's a real disconnect when you're speaking 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:38.240 about conservation issues? There were people like that? Do they 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.079 that that's part of the challenges I think in our 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.480 country's history. You look back at you know, the founding fathers, 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.599 You look at people like Jefferson, they prided themselves and 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.960 being naturalists. Um that that doesn't exist so much anymore. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.520 They're a handful of people who you know, Dean Heller 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:02.240 hunts from horseback on public land. Uh. You know, he's 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.520 got a real interest in it. But there aren't a 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:06.679 lot of us. They're a handful that that are real 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:12.400 passionate about ducks. Uh. Senator Booseman from Arkansas, for example. Um, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:17.520 but boy, it's it is not you know, I think 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.480 it used to be something that really ran through both 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:25.040 parties and was much more baked into who people are. 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:27.840 And that's why I think it's so hard to get 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.200 things done today. I mean, I sit on the Migratory 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:35.319 Bird Conservation Commission. We met this morning. You know that 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:41.000 that whole effort to use duck stamps to buy habitat, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.600 which has been going on since I don't know whenever 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:50.520 we passed the original Migratory Bird Conservation Act. It's still functions, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:55.240 but we can't even get KNOCKER reauthorized. And um explain 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.920 the uh the KNOCKER program that does so huch habitat work. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.480 It Most of these bills expire at a certain time, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.320 and in the past you would have such a focus 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.559 on the importance of these things. And you know, hunting 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.520 and fishing doesn't happen without habitat, and the people who 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:17.960 wrote these bills knew that. And that's why we have 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.360 duck stamps, and that's why we have a North American 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:27.360 Waterfowl Conservation Act KNOCKER program that invests in maintaining and 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.680 improving that habitat in our wildlife refugees and in other 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.480 places across the country. And basic things like that just 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.040 don't have the same resonance, particularly among leadership. I think 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.400 that they used to have for this body, And that's 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.480 one of the things that really worries me. Do you 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:47.680 think it's because people have it too good right now? 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:49.920 Not too I don't want to say too good. But 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.040 do you think it's because people don't feel like things 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.320 are quite on fire the way they might have felt 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:01.960 in the thirties, or anybody who who actually experienced the 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.080 time in this country where you know, elk were extirpated 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.000 from New Mexico right we had zero point out often 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.959 when I give talks, you know, so your home state 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.400 there was down to zero elk and I'm sure like 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.880 you could pick a particular year on the Carson National 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.319 Forest and see how many mule deer were harvested, and 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.800 you'd probably counted on a hand or two or maybe 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.560 two hands and a foot, like not a lot of 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.800 big game, undulate wildlife left in the state. And anybody 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.320 who's experienced that, I think has that sense of urgency. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.560 But I also think there's a disconnection now, uh that 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:47.080 is not that is not helpful, and uh, you know, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:52.040 getting people reconnected to the outdoors, finding ways for folks 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.760 who are completely plugged into their their iPhone and living 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.800 in a more urban environment to understand what actually pays 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.640 for some of this conservation and create a sense of 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.760 urgency is a challenge. One of the things I want 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:08.280 to jump back to the real equipment is just the 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.000 thing that I'd like to mention that really kind of 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.720 made me interested in you when we first met, was 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.280 that you had It just seems like so kind of 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:25.520 strange that that is sitting us senator would apply for 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.720 a muzzle loader elk tag in the Healand National Forest 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:36.800 and then go and do the trip, because I just 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:38.800 have in my mind for most of our history it's 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:40.960 been the other way around. But I just have in 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.640 my mind that, like I was like, oh, if the Senator, 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.320 my hunting would be at some like some duck club. 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.880 But that's you know, that is how New Mexicans um 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.680 for for people who rely on that. It's such a 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.240 part of who we are that those public lands are. 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:02.440 I would put that experience up again any ranch tag 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.200 anywhere in the country, um, you know, to have Plus 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.640 it's it's a challenge to hunt pressured elk too. I 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.720 mean it's like, as you know, they behave very differently 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.680 than the ones who like file into the alfalfa field 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.880 at five thirty uh in the afternoon and uh and 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.520 I enjoy that that that's that's the time of of 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.880 my life that really resets me to who I am, 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.040 and it keeps me much more centered here. I think 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.960 that that, like, I think that's kind of what that 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.640 that centered nous is what I'm still referring without imagine. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.640 Like when hearing that, I was like, well, here's a 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:44.400 person who presumably has a lot of connections and you know, 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.960 points of access, but to just kind of be in there, 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.760 I also like to know and not be you know, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.160 just be one of the guys and not be trying 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:58.440 to roll like quote unquote US Senator, it's really good 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.000 to go out and just you know, bump into people 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.760 in the National Forest here doing the same thing you are. 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.520 And you're out on the lands that you know, our owned, 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.400 our that are owned by the people and manage at 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:13.800 the federal level, which you're involved in, and and you 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.480 need that feedback to to to get through some of 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.280 the rhetoric back here, I mean, people are saying things 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.360 that are working art there in the opposite so staying 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.040 very much at the ground level in touch with that 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:27.880 I think is really important. And then I have a 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.000 follow up question because I'm sure everybody's gonna want to 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.520 know were you successful on your on that? So I 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.560 should I should step back, And it was actually the 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.640 ce Bowl and National Forests in particular out um. But 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:39.960 you know, if you can pull a tag on the 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.440 heel that you're doing great, um, and I was. I 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.480 I it was. I got a great bowl that year. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.440 It was a really hard hunt and did not get 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.080 a lot of opportunities and um, finally found a water 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.560 hole where this really old bowl had been uh coming 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.200 in late at night and I got him right before 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.720 last shooting light. Scheduling has to be hard. Well, that's 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.359 actually why it was a muscle looader hunt. So here's 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.840 the deal. Here's how this works. And in uh, you know, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.920 we get a calendar usually comes out early in the year. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.760 Leadership sets it, and my hunts are based around is 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:26.560 there a week when we're at home in October, September, 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.040 November that we're not working and we can be in state. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.600 That's those are the tags I apply for. So it 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.120 can be a bow tag, it can be a rifle tag, 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.879 it can be a muzzle loader tag that gets determined 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.440 by my schedule, and so you just try to try 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.280 to overlay the timing that works in this job with 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:50.640 what's available in the proclamation and and hope it matches up. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.360 Would you mind walking us through real quick the story 0:17:55.720 --> 0:18:00.119 of the Sabinolsa? Am I saying that right? Sabinolsa know 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:08.399 so is uh is a juniper tree? Can you can 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.479 you talk about what happened there? This is something that 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.320 I've I've explained a number of times. I'd like to 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:13.520 hear it from you because I know that you were 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.840 involved in it from from the ground up, and I 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:21.879 think it's something that would uh help listeners sort of 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.919 understand how you can you know, how someone in your 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.280 position who's thinking about these things can help sort of 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.440 shape a conversation around a conservation issue. I think that's 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.280 very you know, it's it's recent and very relevant. So 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.960 the Savoyo So is an area in north eastern New Mexico. 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:44.400 It's Bureau of Land Management land. It was a wilderness 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.879 study area for a long time, and the BLM recommended 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.000 against it because it was too hard to get to 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.720 try to wrap your head around. That recommended again against 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.720 it being wilderness because it was too hard to get to. 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.280 Now the reality was we had lost access to it. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:03.520 So it's an area of canyons and Mesa's really kind 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.800 of almost red Rock Utah Mountain Lion kind of country, UH, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:13.640 really steep uh and and canyons and Masa tops all 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:18.160 jumbled together. Uh. At one point, I'm sure you could 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.840 get into it legally, but at some point, you know, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.400 private property changed hands and there was no legal access 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.960 to it anymore, not by trail, not by road, not 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.680 any way, shape or form. And in two thousand nine 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:36.159 it was elevated to a an actual wilderness area in 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.800 the Omnibus Public Lands Act of two thousand nine. Uh 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.600 I had been working for a number of years trying 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:48.600 to identify access into it by purchasing and eastment or 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.200 purchasing land, trying to figure out a way to get 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.480 the public in there. Because um I had had a 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.320 chance to go horseback riding in there with um then 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.760 Congressman you'd all, now, Senator you'd all, And it's just 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:06.080 an amazing piece of ground and it's public lands, so 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.399 it should be open to the public. We hadn't had 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.480 a lot of success in that, and this would be 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.040 something that you would look into using private or public funds. 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.119 At when I first started, I was it was I was, 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.720 I think access chair for the New Mexico Wildlife Federation. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:24.800 So we were just looking for a way to do that. 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.200 We were talking to game and fish, we were looking 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.359 at various programs that might be able to provide funding 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.080 for eastments, uh, you know, talking to land owners, trying 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.200 to identify a way to get in there, and found 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.399 some property. It turned out some of the eastments didn't 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.800 didn't actually vet through the legal process um. And so 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.119 there were lots of tries over the years, and the 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:51.760 Wilderness Land Trust stepped up when there was a opportunity 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.960 for one of the surrounding properties to change hands. And 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.720 it's one of the most rugged properties. It's about you know, 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.720 it's about four thousand acres of large, one big deep 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:06.040 canyon um. But it was it had a legitimate easement 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.760 to a graded public road, had a place where people 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.399 could actually park and then get into all of the 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:16.119 rest of this this Bureau of Land Management area. And 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.359 how many acres roughly is the is the chunk of 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:23.480 land that was marooned seventeen thousand Maybe I'd have to 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.240 vet that but that's the number that sticks in my head. Uh. Yeah, 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:33.960 that's that's what the google was for, right. Um. So 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:38.320 the Wilderness Land Trust actually bought a property there and 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.040 offered it up to the Bureau of Land Management, with 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.720 enormous encouragement from myself, Senator, you do all, Congressman Luhan 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:51.000 of Northern New Mexico, I mean, the the the sportsman 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.359 and public land enthusiasts, and that part of the state 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.920 had wanted to get in there forever and ever. So 0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:01.040 we were very enthusiastically supportive. Um, all of that move forward, 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.040 but it kind of ran out the clock at the 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:06.680 end of the last administration, and so it rolled over 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.080 into a new administration. But I don't want to spend 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.880 too much time on it. But why is it? Why 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:16.560 does that take work? Sometimes I scratched my head on 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:18.960 that too. I I this was a gift to the 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.160 American people. It's like a willing seller, a willing private buyer. 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.639 And the willing private buyer says, I'm giving it to 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.199 the federal government. Yes, but the Secretary of Interior at 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.439 the end of the day has to accept that gift. 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:40.480 Do we got we have acreage? Um? And and so 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.760 you know I met with Secretary Zinky before hearing. He 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.960 was not sold on the idea. Um, can you he 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:52.440 didn't want to add wilderness acreage. I think it's the perspective. 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:54.720 I mean, to be fair, you should ask him to 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.119 his perspective on that. But he was concerned that, uh, 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:01.399 you know, you wouldn't want uh, that this had been 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:03.840 a quote unquote ranch and that it was going to 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.879 be wilderness now and you wouldn't want to ranch to 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:10.439 become wilderness. And I'm purely projecting now. I don't want 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.280 to speak for Secretary Zincy at all, but I think 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:15.480 maybe he had a picture in his mind of Montana, 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.640 where wilderness is something up in the mountains and ranch 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.680 front country is sort of grassland down below and more 0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.600 developed and roaded and all those kinds of things. We 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:27.960 had a back and forth and committee. It was not 0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:30.440 going well. It was pretty sort of head to head, 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:33.120 and I just took a step back and said, wait 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:35.480 a minute. You know, we're arguing about this in Washington, 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.760 d C. What might help is if you and I 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.720 go out there and we ride a couple of horses, 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:43.560 and we go into this country and look at it together, 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:46.159 and we can figure it out. Uh, and that was 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:49.879 kind of a turning point. The secretary ended up coming 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.359 out to New Mexico heard you know, there were lots 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:58.440