Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: vog bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Okay, We're coming from Washington, d C,
Speaker 1: the nation's capital, and we're joined by a very special guest,
Speaker 1: Senator Martin Heinrich. But first, UM, I want to touch
Speaker 1: on something real quick. So the Mediator Podcast Live Tour.
Speaker 1: We're coming out to four different cities soon. We have Denver, Colorado,
Speaker 1: tempor Arizona, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Columbus, Ohio. If you want to
Speaker 1: check out about getting your tickets to come meet me,
Speaker 1: the Latvian Eagle are actual guests that will be announcing soon.
Speaker 1: You can go to www. Dot Mediator dot live and
Speaker 1: get all the info you need. I look forward to
Speaker 1: meeting you and you're how this is how far into
Speaker 1: you are on your on your So I'm five years
Speaker 1: into my first Senate term. I spent four years in
Speaker 1: the House before that. You guys like senators get a
Speaker 1: nice generous term compared to I would. I would agree.
Speaker 1: I think that the House term, the two year term,
Speaker 1: is part of the part of the problem. Um, it's
Speaker 1: really hard to do anything to do any long term
Speaker 1: thinking when you're in the House of Representatives, because you
Speaker 1: have a two year term. You have a two year term,
Speaker 1: you know, a year in and you're already completely consumed
Speaker 1: with your re election. So everyone's gonna be like a
Speaker 1: senator has even longer than the president. But then you guys,
Speaker 1: it's not as nice as the Supreme Court justice. Well
Speaker 1: you know, I guess everybody has there advantages and disadvantag
Speaker 1: just I like. The thing I like about the Senate
Speaker 1: is as soon as I moved over from the House,
Speaker 1: I was able to take on projects that would have
Speaker 1: a longer time horizon and to really think about more difficult,
Speaker 1: long term problems. And when you think about conservation, you know,
Speaker 1: we have a place, the Vice cald Ea in New
Speaker 1: Mexico that is now in public hands. It's a huge
Speaker 1: success story, but people started working on it a hundred
Speaker 1: years ago, in like nineteen sixt so you need to
Speaker 1: that's when the idea for a bill to do something
Speaker 1: to put that in public hands first took shape. And
Speaker 1: so it's it's good to have the room to think
Speaker 1: big um and you can do that in the Senate.
Speaker 1: You still have to deal with all the day to
Speaker 1: day stuff and the the things that are right in
Speaker 1: front of you, but you can also look out into
Speaker 1: the future and say, what are we going to do
Speaker 1: to get to where we want to be? I wanna, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to get into some of that stuff. I
Speaker 1: want to get into some of the details with you
Speaker 1: about the thinking on long term conservation projects. But can
Speaker 1: we back up a little bit or back not a
Speaker 1: little bit, back way up? Can you walk me through
Speaker 1: sort of how how you're kind of how your career
Speaker 1: went and how you came to be, you know, sitting
Speaker 1: in the US Senate. So like when you became aware,
Speaker 1: when you became aware of that that would be a
Speaker 1: thing that was possible. I can do that. It won't
Speaker 1: seem particularly planned out or logical to you. Um. So,
Speaker 1: I'm an engineer by training, and if I had known
Speaker 1: that I was going to go into public service, I
Speaker 1: would have spent a lot less time taken differential equations
Speaker 1: and heat transfer classes because those who are hard. Um.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, I got interested. I was always
Speaker 1: interested in politics. But there was a moment back in
Speaker 1: the nineties when I had settled down in Albuquerque after college,
Speaker 1: when I really first started thinking about running for office. Well,
Speaker 1: what was it that made you interested in nearing? I
Speaker 1: just like how things work, and I had an aptitude
Speaker 1: for math and science, and probably a high school guidance
Speaker 1: counselor said i've seen your scores, you should be an engineer.
Speaker 1: And didn't discover something along the way that that necessarily
Speaker 1: pulled me off that track until after I had the
Speaker 1: degree and settled in New Mexico. Did you start doing
Speaker 1: engineering work? I did right out of the gate. I
Speaker 1: was doing some work out at Air Force Research Labs
Speaker 1: and uh, working on directed energy, which is an area
Speaker 1: lasers and microwave stuff that I still work on today.
Speaker 1: From a policy point of view, Yeah, because you got
Speaker 1: into I know, you've got interested in renewables and being
Speaker 1: in New Mexico interested in solar Yeah. No, that that too.
Speaker 1: I mean that was something that grew out of my
Speaker 1: engineering days and the early nineties a group of us
Speaker 1: built a carbon five or solar car that we raced
Speaker 1: from Dallas to Minneapolis. And that's when I first started
Speaker 1: thinking that, you know, this stuff is scalable. Yea, So
Speaker 1: tell me what happened in Albuquerque? Then when you kind
Speaker 1: of had your political uh you know, awakening or you know,
Speaker 1: I UM, I decided that I would run for the
Speaker 1: city council. And before that, I worked on some campaigns
Speaker 1: to to get the sort of you know, to understand
Speaker 1: how stuff works. UM. And so I ran some campaigns.
Speaker 1: I ran a statewide land commissioner campaign that didn't work out.
Speaker 1: I ran I worked for the Speaker of the House
Speaker 1: trying to maintain his majority, and helped sort of man
Speaker 1: not day to day manage, but keep all of his
Speaker 1: candidates moving in the right direction. And that kind of
Speaker 1: gave me the skills to then take on a city
Speaker 1: council race. And that was as far as I was
Speaker 1: looking out towards the horizon. And uh, you know, once
Speaker 1: I was on the council, people started encouraging me to
Speaker 1: run for a congressional seat. Uh. It was a very
Speaker 1: contested seat. It had never been held by a Democrat
Speaker 1: in its history. Uh. And that was two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: I won that seat, and then a few years three,
Speaker 1: a little over two years later, the senior senator retires,
Speaker 1: so another Senate seat opens up. So it was all
Speaker 1: sort of very very quick and not not something I
Speaker 1: planned out. I didn't I never planned to be an
Speaker 1: elected official, much less a United States Senator, When did
Speaker 1: you within that, like in your life, when did you
Speaker 1: become kind of aware of the natural world and become
Speaker 1: interested in I was an environmentalism conservation. I was hugely
Speaker 1: interested in the natural world as a child. We had
Speaker 1: a small sort of cow calf operation when I was
Speaker 1: a kid in Missouri, UM. And when we when we
Speaker 1: didn't have that, we were living at the sort of
Speaker 1: the edge of a small town where there were creeks
Speaker 1: and places. I would come home after school and I
Speaker 1: just disappeared into the outdoors. And Uh, I always had
Speaker 1: a strong interest in that. My parents really fostered that.
Speaker 1: They thought it was great. Uh. My mom didn't always appreciate,
Speaker 1: you know, snakes coming home into the house or uh
Speaker 1: the day that my dad brought a tarantula home and
Speaker 1: left it on the kitchen counter and a fish bowl
Speaker 1: and by the time she came home, it wasn't in
Speaker 1: the fish bowl anymore. But for the most part, But
Speaker 1: for the most part, they really fostered my interest in
Speaker 1: the outdoors. So did they come from an egg background. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my dad grew up interesting story. He immigrated here in
Speaker 1: the thirties from Germany as a young child. UM. But
Speaker 1: quickly learned to cowboy when he was just becoming a
Speaker 1: teenager and had years of history running feed lots and
Speaker 1: running cow calf operations, riding quarter horses. So he was
Speaker 1: a sort of a legit cowboy from Germany in the thirties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: got out when the gutting was good. Yeah, they did.
Speaker 1: They got out at the right time. I think they
Speaker 1: saw the riding on the wall. His his parents, um,
Speaker 1: you know, saw what was going on in lots of
Speaker 1: quarters and said we want a different deal. That's interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he kind of became a German American cowboy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly right. And then you but did you grow up
Speaker 1: around um, did you grow up around hunting and fishing?
Speaker 1: Were those things you picked up around fishing? My dad
Speaker 1: was great about uh. He he enjoyed trout fishing. He
Speaker 1: enjoyed um fishing for you know, warm water fish, catfish
Speaker 1: and uh blue girl and stuff like that. But um,
Speaker 1: he was not a good hunting mentor. Uh. He had
Speaker 1: worked exploration I think in his twenties and thirties for
Speaker 1: Anacona copper and was really into geology and if you
Speaker 1: got him out on a hunt, he would want to
Speaker 1: look at rocks on the ground instead of being looking
Speaker 1: at at the horizon. Doesn't really lend itself to being
Speaker 1: a good mentor and on that kind that finds more
Speaker 1: arrowheads and exactly right, Yeah, yeah, I have I have
Speaker 1: the I have the looking out far away that we're
Speaker 1: looking at the ground tendency. So I tried to teach
Speaker 1: myself when I was twelve. Um, didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of success. And then when I got into my twenties,
Speaker 1: really took it back up again, found some people who
Speaker 1: were good mentors. Was really getting into wanting to control
Speaker 1: my own food. We were growing a lot of food
Speaker 1: at home. Uh. And it just fit into that in
Speaker 1: a way that Um, you know, I think your show
Speaker 1: really appeals to a different demographic of young hunters. And
Speaker 1: I saw this when you are in New Mexico for
Speaker 1: the New Mexico Game and Fish their annual fundraiser and
Speaker 1: spoke to that crowd. Uh. It was interesting to me
Speaker 1: to see the sort of new hunter old hunter group
Speaker 1: groupings in that crowd and how demographically different there's this
Speaker 1: younger generation of backcountry hunters with their trucker hats and
Speaker 1: a real focus on food. Um and uh, and that
Speaker 1: that all of that really appealed to me in my
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, and it's been a kind of adult onset. Honey,
Speaker 1: do you in this atmosphere that you're in when you're
Speaker 1: like in your professional life as a senator in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. How unusual is it? Um? How unusual is
Speaker 1: it to have the background and interest that you have,
Speaker 1: the outdoor background interest, Like when you're talking to your colleagues,
Speaker 1: do you find there's a real disconnect when you're speaking
Speaker 1: about conservation issues? There were people like that? Do they
Speaker 1: that that's part of the challenges I think in our
Speaker 1: country's history. You look back at you know, the founding fathers,
Speaker 1: You look at people like Jefferson, they prided themselves and
Speaker 1: being naturalists. Um that that doesn't exist so much anymore.
Speaker 1: They're a handful of people who you know, Dean Heller
Speaker 1: hunts from horseback on public land. Uh. You know, he's
Speaker 1: got a real interest in it. But there aren't a
Speaker 1: lot of us. They're a handful that that are real
Speaker 1: passionate about ducks. Uh. Senator Booseman from Arkansas, for example. Um,
Speaker 1: but boy, it's it is not you know, I think
Speaker 1: it used to be something that really ran through both
Speaker 1: parties and was much more baked into who people are.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's so hard to get
Speaker 1: things done today. I mean, I sit on the Migratory
Speaker 1: Bird Conservation Commission. We met this morning. You know that
Speaker 1: that whole effort to use duck stamps to buy habitat,
Speaker 1: which has been going on since I don't know whenever
Speaker 1: we passed the original Migratory Bird Conservation Act. It's still functions,
Speaker 1: but we can't even get KNOCKER reauthorized. And um explain
Speaker 1: the uh the KNOCKER program that does so huch habitat work.
Speaker 1: It Most of these bills expire at a certain time,
Speaker 1: and in the past you would have such a focus
Speaker 1: on the importance of these things. And you know, hunting
Speaker 1: and fishing doesn't happen without habitat, and the people who
Speaker 1: wrote these bills knew that. And that's why we have
Speaker 1: duck stamps, and that's why we have a North American
Speaker 1: Waterfowl Conservation Act KNOCKER program that invests in maintaining and
Speaker 1: improving that habitat in our wildlife refugees and in other
Speaker 1: places across the country. And basic things like that just
Speaker 1: don't have the same resonance, particularly among leadership. I think
Speaker 1: that they used to have for this body, And that's
Speaker 1: one of the things that really worries me. Do you
Speaker 1: think it's because people have it too good right now?
Speaker 1: Not too I don't want to say too good. But
Speaker 1: do you think it's because people don't feel like things
Speaker 1: are quite on fire the way they might have felt
Speaker 1: in the thirties, or anybody who who actually experienced the
Speaker 1: time in this country where you know, elk were extirpated
Speaker 1: from New Mexico right we had zero point out often
Speaker 1: when I give talks, you know, so your home state
Speaker 1: there was down to zero elk and I'm sure like
Speaker 1: you could pick a particular year on the Carson National
Speaker 1: Forest and see how many mule deer were harvested, and
Speaker 1: you'd probably counted on a hand or two or maybe
Speaker 1: two hands and a foot, like not a lot of
Speaker 1: big game, undulate wildlife left in the state. And anybody
Speaker 1: who's experienced that, I think has that sense of urgency.
Speaker 1: But I also think there's a disconnection now, uh that
Speaker 1: is not that is not helpful, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: getting people reconnected to the outdoors, finding ways for folks
Speaker 1: who are completely plugged into their their iPhone and living
Speaker 1: in a more urban environment to understand what actually pays
Speaker 1: for some of this conservation and create a sense of
Speaker 1: urgency is a challenge. One of the things I want
Speaker 1: to jump back to the real equipment is just the
Speaker 1: thing that I'd like to mention that really kind of
Speaker 1: made me interested in you when we first met, was
Speaker 1: that you had It just seems like so kind of
Speaker 1: strange that that is sitting us senator would apply for
Speaker 1: a muzzle loader elk tag in the Healand National Forest
Speaker 1: and then go and do the trip, because I just
Speaker 1: have in my mind for most of our history it's
Speaker 1: been the other way around. But I just have in
Speaker 1: my mind that, like I was like, oh, if the Senator,
Speaker 1: my hunting would be at some like some duck club.
Speaker 1: But that's you know, that is how New Mexicans um
Speaker 1: for for people who rely on that. It's such a
Speaker 1: part of who we are that those public lands are.
Speaker 1: I would put that experience up again any ranch tag
Speaker 1: anywhere in the country, um, you know, to have Plus
Speaker 1: it's it's a challenge to hunt pressured elk too. I
Speaker 1: mean it's like, as you know, they behave very differently
Speaker 1: than the ones who like file into the alfalfa field
Speaker 1: at five thirty uh in the afternoon and uh and
Speaker 1: I enjoy that that that's that's the time of of
Speaker 1: my life that really resets me to who I am,
Speaker 1: and it keeps me much more centered here. I think
Speaker 1: that that, like, I think that's kind of what that
Speaker 1: that centered nous is what I'm still referring without imagine.
Speaker 1: Like when hearing that, I was like, well, here's a
Speaker 1: person who presumably has a lot of connections and you know,
Speaker 1: points of access, but to just kind of be in there,
Speaker 1: I also like to know and not be you know,
Speaker 1: just be one of the guys and not be trying
Speaker 1: to roll like quote unquote US Senator, it's really good
Speaker 1: to go out and just you know, bump into people
Speaker 1: in the National Forest here doing the same thing you are.
Speaker 1: And you're out on the lands that you know, our owned,
Speaker 1: our that are owned by the people and manage at
Speaker 1: the federal level, which you're involved in, and and you
Speaker 1: need that feedback to to to get through some of
Speaker 1: the rhetoric back here, I mean, people are saying things
Speaker 1: that are working art there in the opposite so staying
Speaker 1: very much at the ground level in touch with that
Speaker 1: I think is really important. And then I have a
Speaker 1: follow up question because I'm sure everybody's gonna want to
Speaker 1: know were you successful on your on that? So I
Speaker 1: should I should step back, And it was actually the
Speaker 1: ce Bowl and National Forests in particular out um. But
Speaker 1: you know, if you can pull a tag on the
Speaker 1: heel that you're doing great, um, and I was. I
Speaker 1: I it was. I got a great bowl that year.
Speaker 1: It was a really hard hunt and did not get
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities and um, finally found a water
Speaker 1: hole where this really old bowl had been uh coming
Speaker 1: in late at night and I got him right before
Speaker 1: last shooting light. Scheduling has to be hard. Well, that's
Speaker 1: actually why it was a muscle looader hunt. So here's
Speaker 1: the deal. Here's how this works. And in uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we get a calendar usually comes out early in the year.
Speaker 1: Leadership sets it, and my hunts are based around is
Speaker 1: there a week when we're at home in October, September,
Speaker 1: November that we're not working and we can be in state.
Speaker 1: That's those are the tags I apply for. So it
Speaker 1: can be a bow tag, it can be a rifle tag,
Speaker 1: it can be a muzzle loader tag that gets determined
Speaker 1: by my schedule, and so you just try to try
Speaker 1: to overlay the timing that works in this job with
Speaker 1: what's available in the proclamation and and hope it matches up.
Speaker 1: Would you mind walking us through real quick the story
Speaker 1: of the Sabinolsa? Am I saying that right? Sabinolsa know
Speaker 1: so is uh is a juniper tree? Can you can
Speaker 1: you talk about what happened there? This is something that
Speaker 1: I've I've explained a number of times. I'd like to
Speaker 1: hear it from you because I know that you were
Speaker 1: involved in it from from the ground up, and I
Speaker 1: think it's something that would uh help listeners sort of
Speaker 1: understand how you can you know, how someone in your
Speaker 1: position who's thinking about these things can help sort of
Speaker 1: shape a conversation around a conservation issue. I think that's
Speaker 1: very you know, it's it's recent and very relevant. So
Speaker 1: the Savoyo So is an area in north eastern New Mexico.
Speaker 1: It's Bureau of Land Management land. It was a wilderness
Speaker 1: study area for a long time, and the BLM recommended
Speaker 1: against it because it was too hard to get to
Speaker 1: try to wrap your head around. That recommended again against
Speaker 1: it being wilderness because it was too hard to get to.
Speaker 1: Now the reality was we had lost access to it.
Speaker 1: So it's an area of canyons and Mesa's really kind
Speaker 1: of almost red Rock Utah Mountain Lion kind of country, UH,
Speaker 1: really steep uh and and canyons and Masa tops all
Speaker 1: jumbled together. Uh. At one point, I'm sure you could
Speaker 1: get into it legally, but at some point, you know,
Speaker 1: private property changed hands and there was no legal access
Speaker 1: to it anymore, not by trail, not by road, not
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. And in two thousand nine
Speaker 1: it was elevated to a an actual wilderness area in
Speaker 1: the Omnibus Public Lands Act of two thousand nine. Uh
Speaker 1: I had been working for a number of years trying
Speaker 1: to identify access into it by purchasing and eastment or
Speaker 1: purchasing land, trying to figure out a way to get
Speaker 1: the public in there. Because um I had had a
Speaker 1: chance to go horseback riding in there with um then
Speaker 1: Congressman you'd all, now, Senator you'd all, And it's just
Speaker 1: an amazing piece of ground and it's public lands, so
Speaker 1: it should be open to the public. We hadn't had
Speaker 1: a lot of success in that, and this would be
Speaker 1: something that you would look into using private or public funds.
Speaker 1: At when I first started, I was it was I was,
Speaker 1: I think access chair for the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.
Speaker 1: So we were just looking for a way to do that.
Speaker 1: We were talking to game and fish, we were looking
Speaker 1: at various programs that might be able to provide funding
Speaker 1: for eastments, uh, you know, talking to land owners, trying
Speaker 1: to identify a way to get in there, and found
Speaker 1: some property. It turned out some of the eastments didn't
Speaker 1: didn't actually vet through the legal process um. And so
Speaker 1: there were lots of tries over the years, and the
Speaker 1: Wilderness Land Trust stepped up when there was a opportunity
Speaker 1: for one of the surrounding properties to change hands. And
Speaker 1: it's one of the most rugged properties. It's about you know,
Speaker 1: it's about four thousand acres of large, one big deep
Speaker 1: canyon um. But it was it had a legitimate easement
Speaker 1: to a graded public road, had a place where people
Speaker 1: could actually park and then get into all of the
Speaker 1: rest of this this Bureau of Land Management area. And
Speaker 1: how many acres roughly is the is the chunk of
Speaker 1: land that was marooned seventeen thousand Maybe I'd have to
Speaker 1: vet that but that's the number that sticks in my head. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's what the google was for, right. Um. So
Speaker 1: the Wilderness Land Trust actually bought a property there and
Speaker 1: offered it up to the Bureau of Land Management, with
Speaker 1: enormous encouragement from myself, Senator, you do all, Congressman Luhan
Speaker 1: of Northern New Mexico, I mean, the the the sportsman
Speaker 1: and public land enthusiasts, and that part of the state
Speaker 1: had wanted to get in there forever and ever. So
Speaker 1: we were very enthusiastically supportive. Um, all of that move forward,
Speaker 1: but it kind of ran out the clock at the
Speaker 1: end of the last administration, and so it rolled over
Speaker 1: into a new administration. But I don't want to spend
Speaker 1: too much time on it. But why is it? Why
Speaker 1: does that take work? Sometimes I scratched my head on
Speaker 1: that too. I I this was a gift to the
Speaker 1: American people. It's like a willing seller, a willing private buyer.
Speaker 1: And the willing private buyer says, I'm giving it to
Speaker 1: the federal government. Yes, but the Secretary of Interior at
Speaker 1: the end of the day has to accept that gift.
Speaker 1: Do we got we have acreage? Um? And and so
Speaker 1: you know I met with Secretary Zinky before hearing. He
Speaker 1: was not sold on the idea. Um, can you he
Speaker 1: didn't want to add wilderness acreage. I think it's the perspective.
Speaker 1: I mean, to be fair, you should ask him to
Speaker 1: his perspective on that. But he was concerned that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you wouldn't want uh, that this had been
Speaker 1: a quote unquote ranch and that it was going to
Speaker 1: be wilderness now and you wouldn't want to ranch to
Speaker 1: become wilderness. And I'm purely projecting now. I don't want
Speaker 1: to speak for Secretary Zincy at all, but I think
Speaker 1: maybe he had a picture in his mind of Montana,
Speaker 1: where wilderness is something up in the mountains and ranch
Speaker 1: front country is sort of grassland down below and more
Speaker 1: developed and roaded and all those kinds of things. We
Speaker 1: had a back and forth and committee. It was not
Speaker 1: going well. It was pretty sort of head to head,
Speaker 1: and I just took a step back and said, wait
Speaker 1: a minute. You know, we're arguing about this in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. What might help is if you and I
Speaker 1: go out there and we ride a couple of horses,
Speaker 1: and we go into this country and look at it together,
Speaker 1: and we can figure it out. Uh, and that was
Speaker 1: kind of a turning point. The secretary ended up coming
Speaker 1: out to New Mexico heard you know, there were lots
Speaker 1: of enthusiastic sportsman at the for there for his visit
Speaker 1: who were like, we are chomping at a bit, we'd
Speaker 1: really like to see this place opened by Mulitier season. Um.
Speaker 1: So after that he changed his position, said this is
Speaker 1: a great conservation opportunity and accepted. We put together a
Speaker 1: deal where you know, they made sure that you could
Speaker 1: get motorized access to a parking area and that if
Speaker 1: they had to get something into fight fires, you can
Speaker 1: do that under the Wilderness Act and uh, and they
Speaker 1: ended up accepting the gift. And it's you know, there
Speaker 1: are some very enthusiastic sportsman in New Mexico of enjoyed
Speaker 1: their access to the Sabino so as a result, so
Speaker 1: now with the easement and the actual wilderness area, you
Speaker 1: can add twenty thousand acres are people camp, uh, bird
Speaker 1: watch whatever whatever you like to do. You know, you
Speaker 1: couldn't do it on your land up until that moment.
Speaker 1: And it's a special place. It's there's some permanent water
Speaker 1: in there, which in New Mexico you you pour three
Speaker 1: gallons of water on the ground, if it doesn't soak away,
Speaker 1: you're gonna have wildlife, right, You're gonna have ducks in
Speaker 1: places you'd never think to have ducks. When we were
Speaker 1: in there, there was a big flock of turkeys. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's mule deer that use that area.
Speaker 1: They're a handful of barbary sheep I think still in
Speaker 1: the area. I mean, they're not native, but they're also
Speaker 1: not They're exotic more than they are invasive. So they
Speaker 1: are definitely sort of on the game menu in New Mexico.
Speaker 1: Some people have, I think, particularly in the east or
Speaker 1: wetter areas, have a hard time picture in that thirst
Speaker 1: for water. And you're honest. You know, the guys used
Speaker 1: to he used to guide elk counters with. They would
Speaker 1: sometimes take a water jug. This is down Arizona and Arizona. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they would dump a water jug. Uh yeah, we got
Speaker 1: it there in south of the rim to Um. But
Speaker 1: I think this was when this story takes place, was
Speaker 1: unit nine. But uh yeah, the Fellows just driving down
Speaker 1: a dirt road and was just like crossing kind of
Speaker 1: a wet, muddy spot that might have had water in
Speaker 1: a few days earlier and noticed that possibly an l
Speaker 1: could rolled in there, and so he just happened. Everybody's
Speaker 1: packing around whatever, fifty gallons of water in the back
Speaker 1: of their truck, right, so he dumped out like whatever
Speaker 1: five ten gallons and basically created a wallow, stuck a
Speaker 1: trail camp up in the tree branch above. It. Came
Speaker 1: back two days later and there's all kinds of l hitting.
Speaker 1: It just smelled that little bit, right, You get that
Speaker 1: dirt wet and they can smell it a long way away.
Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing, like how dry some of the
Speaker 1: places are. Can I feel like that that the story
Speaker 1: we just talked about leads into uh, the Hunt Act. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you talked about that a little bit, and this was
Speaker 1: you know, Savyosa was really the impetus for the Hunt act. Um.
Speaker 1: I was concerned that there are places, uh in this
Speaker 1: country now and I've seen this, you know, ran Ne
Speaker 1: Newburgh has done some great episodes where he's had to
Speaker 1: take a helicopter and airplane in the you know, hunt
Speaker 1: on public land in Montana, right. We have this in
Speaker 1: New Mexico with Savino. So so so some other places like
Speaker 1: the Alamo wacos that were completely land locked. And I
Speaker 1: realized that the agencies especially want to interrupting montecles people understand, uh,
Speaker 1: when we talk about landlocked, just just anytime into it,
Speaker 1: because I just want to make sure people understand what
Speaker 1: we're talking abou we're talking about landlocked. So you think
Speaker 1: about you gotta you've got a little tiny mountain chain
Speaker 1: in the middle desert that comes up off the desert floor,
Speaker 1: and that mountain chain is public land, it's Bureau of
Speaker 1: Land Management land, but uh, it is surrounded by private land.
Speaker 1: And there is no road or trail that has a
Speaker 1: legal eastment that actually gets into it. So that's your land.
Speaker 1: And um, you know, if you could get there, you
Speaker 1: could do all kinds of things on it, but you can't.
Speaker 1: You can't legally get into it. And I started to
Speaker 1: realize that this was not a one off. It was
Speaker 1: not that there are millions of acres spread across the
Speaker 1: West who can't that that are you know, our public
Speaker 1: birthright that we can't use? And how can we change that?
Speaker 1: And so I wrote a bill to make the agency's
Speaker 1: do a review and figure out, like where are these places?
Speaker 1: How much do we have? And start to prioritize and
Speaker 1: do something about it. So let's spend some of those
Speaker 1: Land and Water Conservation Fund dollars on purely on being
Speaker 1: able to get the easements to be able to get
Speaker 1: in and utilize those places again. And for me, that's access. Now.
Speaker 1: For for Chairman Bishop, I think it means being able
Speaker 1: to drive anywhere. And that's a problem if you like
Speaker 1: to hunt big elk, because elk don't like to live
Speaker 1: on a road. You know my experiences. If you want
Speaker 1: the big, gnarly old bull elk, you know, you look
Speaker 1: for the blank spot on the map, not the place
Speaker 1: with lots of motorized access. Yeah, there are the exceptions,
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna bring this up to play Devil's
Speaker 1: advocate a little bit. But where we just were talking
Speaker 1: about in Arizona, Unit nine, it's a very routed up place.
Speaker 1: It's also very heavily managed for you know, trophy potential
Speaker 1: elk zone And it takes how many years? Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were they were guiding hunters who's been waiting, buying preference
Speaker 1: points every year, years of preference points. Yeah. So, and
Speaker 1: God bless us hunters for you know, putting all that.
Speaker 1: You know that that costs a lot of money over
Speaker 1: time and that gets plowed back into habitats. So that's
Speaker 1: that's that's a great thing. But for me, UM, I
Speaker 1: do understand what you mean about the conversation, and we
Speaker 1: spoke with Chairman Bishop about this. Uh is people, I
Speaker 1: think sportsmen hear the word access and it just has
Speaker 1: very everyone agrees like, no one would agree that we
Speaker 1: No one would say like there should be less access.
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, yes, I agree with more access. But I
Speaker 1: think that people take the idea that that that that
Speaker 1: the idea of access is popular and enjoys widespread support,
Speaker 1: and then you can kind of take what your particular
Speaker 1: vision is and make it seem like access. So if
Speaker 1: your particular vision is is UM increasing vehicular access and
Speaker 1: opening up more stuff for h v use UM, and
Speaker 1: you build that as as a definition of access, do
Speaker 1: you find that you're gonna like pick up some support
Speaker 1: that maybe coming from people who if they knew the
Speaker 1: details of what your vision was, their enthusiasms were damp
Speaker 1: in a little bit if they knew that you wanted
Speaker 1: to turn it into a quad runner race way right,
Speaker 1: or access for mineral development or something else that's going
Speaker 1: to impact that habitat long term. Yeah, so I've now
Speaker 1: become when I hear in certain quarters, when I hear
Speaker 1: or like increase access, I found myself saying, well, okay,
Speaker 1: what kind of access we tombolaks? When I think it access,
Speaker 1: I don't think about opening up places that were previously
Speaker 1: literally not accessible. Exactly right. That's what the Hunt Act
Speaker 1: was was written to do. And um, it's it was.
Speaker 1: It's been popular enough that we've been able to get
Speaker 1: it into the Sportsman's Package, which is something we've negotiated
Speaker 1: sort of with both um Lisa Murkowski, Senator from Alaska.
Speaker 1: So you guys have done it work on a handful
Speaker 1: projects that work well together. Um, you know, we have
Speaker 1: our differences, but man, she's a pro, and we've put
Speaker 1: a sportsman's package together that is very bipartisan. And that's
Speaker 1: just one of the pieces in it. Um, what will
Speaker 1: happen there with something like that, Like how do you
Speaker 1: picture something like that? Like how is it received? How
Speaker 1: do you get it where it gets the proper attention
Speaker 1: that it doesn't get drowned out by all the other
Speaker 1: things you have to deal with, Like do you have
Speaker 1: to kind of have a calendar reminder the constant Twitter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: dynamic do you have to have a daily calendar reminder
Speaker 1: that tells you what it was you were wanting to
Speaker 1: do in the first place? As you as you kind
Speaker 1: of sometimes I wonder about that. There is a dynamic
Speaker 1: in this town of you have to be paying attention
Speaker 1: to so many different issues that your attention spans becomes
Speaker 1: a very short term attention span. And for me, Um,
Speaker 1: I you know, if I had my brothers, I would
Speaker 1: love to do this job from Taos, New Mexico or
Speaker 1: Albuquerque here, you know, someplace at home where I was
Speaker 1: is more my natural habitat and that feeds my soul
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. Uh So it is. It is
Speaker 1: focusing on these things long term, which uh you know,
Speaker 1: gives me sort of long term vision and cuts through
Speaker 1: the constant social media and television media circus around here.
Speaker 1: But that's that's it's probably my personal passion for these
Speaker 1: things that allows me to keep that thread going um
Speaker 1: when it would be very easy for it to get
Speaker 1: lost in the clutter. And for another member who doesn't
Speaker 1: have that personal connection, it probably does get lost in
Speaker 1: the clutter. I mean it has to only and I'm
Speaker 1: saying that only because it's not like you're saying, like,
Speaker 1: if you're watching the news cycle, you're not I don't
Speaker 1: use I don't use mainstream news cycle in a derogatory way.
Speaker 1: But when you're watching sort of the national news cycle,
Speaker 1: you're just not being bombarded by conservation stories. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: So it's almost like you, I imagine, politically, you could
Speaker 1: run the risk of seeing like sort of a fringe
Speaker 1: person or a person who's like wondering and thinking about
Speaker 1: things that are maybe kind of long term or kind
Speaker 1: of like, uh, you know, maybe provincial or something. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you ever get that sense when when you're speaking
Speaker 1: about conservation on the national level that people that that
Speaker 1: that that colleagues or other people in the political sphere
Speaker 1: would feel like it was like a fringe issue or
Speaker 1: not a Yeah, no, I I get what you're saying now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that it's that you're saying, I want to I want
Speaker 1: to open up access to federal lands. People like what
Speaker 1: you want to? What you know, it's funny and it's like,
Speaker 1: if you just talk about sportsmen and their impact on
Speaker 1: conservation and wildlife habitat, we are not a huge percentage
Speaker 1: of the population anymore, right, so I'm sure there are
Speaker 1: members who who look at it that way, but I
Speaker 1: also think it's a it's a way to connect with
Speaker 1: people that you're not necessarily politically aligned with on a
Speaker 1: whole series of other issues. Um, you get two members
Speaker 1: of Congress and a duck blind, they'll actually talk to
Speaker 1: each other and learn about each other. So you know,
Speaker 1: there there are huge advan manages to it as well,
Speaker 1: and there there is a desire among a lot of
Speaker 1: members to still keep this as bipartisan as we possibly can,
Speaker 1: which is a hard thing to do in a very
Speaker 1: divided country these days. Speaking about divisions. Can can you
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on
Speaker 1: public land divestor public land seizure? Yeah? You bet? Like
Speaker 1: what what that what that movement looks like? You know
Speaker 1: that whether it is a movement, it's not a I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a legitimate movement. It's not a grassroot.
Speaker 1: What worries me about the current dynamic is that it's
Speaker 1: not that it's got a lot of money behind it,
Speaker 1: and and we've seen that in the last few years,
Speaker 1: and you can't really try it's so easy to have
Speaker 1: dark money in politics now that it's very hard to
Speaker 1: see who is financing what. But you know, you look
Speaker 1: back at earlier iterations of the quote unquote stage brush
Speaker 1: rebellion and other efforts to say a you know, let's
Speaker 1: either give these public lands to the states or let's
Speaker 1: sell them off for what's you know, which you're basically
Speaker 1: two speeds of doing the same thing. Because most Western
Speaker 1: states have sold off huge amounts of their state land.
Speaker 1: We have millions of acres in New Mexico that used
Speaker 1: to be open to the public that is not today
Speaker 1: because a land commissioner chose to sell them off at
Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, some states have sold off. Well, many
Speaker 1: states have sold off the majority of the state lands
Speaker 1: they originally and so you can go back to those
Speaker 1: places now and see no trespassing sign. I think it's
Speaker 1: worth noting that like in New Mexico, you can't camp
Speaker 1: on state land, so there are at all there. They
Speaker 1: have now made a few little places where you can
Speaker 1: camp designated areas. But if you have a place like
Speaker 1: the Louetta Mountains that are really remote where you would
Speaker 1: have to go in and backpack in and and bivvy
Speaker 1: out to be able to hunt effectively in the middle
Speaker 1: of that range, um, you can't do that because you
Speaker 1: you have to ask the permit tea whether you can
Speaker 1: do that. A few years ago, I think the permit
Speaker 1: tea was from Texas maybe UM. Like just functionally, you're
Speaker 1: you're never going to be able to hunt most of
Speaker 1: that because it's so hard and you can't just camp
Speaker 1: in those areas. So that's a very different experience than
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management land BLM land or for service
Speaker 1: land UM. So I think it's a beautiful thing to
Speaker 1: have that land that the federal government manages, but the
Speaker 1: public owns that the public can go and fight over
Speaker 1: how it should be managed and fight for it and
Speaker 1: camp on it and and hunting fish on it. UM.
Speaker 1: And what worries me about this movement is that it
Speaker 1: seems to be better funded than in the past. And
Speaker 1: you see the American Lands Council, and you see groups
Speaker 1: like ALEC that have huge corporate funders that are not
Speaker 1: always transfer usually not transparent, aren't and if they're involved,
Speaker 1: then you know you have to take it seriously. And
Speaker 1: and to their credit, I think the sportsman community has
Speaker 1: gotten much more serious about UM meeting this challenge in
Speaker 1: the last five years. When you say that the funding seems,
Speaker 1: the money available seems outside of the public sentiment. Do
Speaker 1: you mean that that they the groups will still that
Speaker 1: that have money, will still try to have their like
Speaker 1: their goals sort of masquerade as a grassroots exactly. AstroTurf
Speaker 1: is one way to put it, right, AstroTurf like than
Speaker 1: so you can look at it and say that there's
Speaker 1: there's money coming from somewhere that's not particularly clear, and
Speaker 1: and it's pretty clear it's not coming in you know,
Speaker 1: member checks of some little local group that must be tough. Sorry, um,
Speaker 1: because they have sounds like they have more money now
Speaker 1: and the federal government has less money to manage that.
Speaker 1: And that's like a constant. Uh. Well, that's something that
Speaker 1: really bothers me, is that this dynamic of starving the
Speaker 1: federal land management agencies of any sort of budget to
Speaker 1: be able to manage lands and then condemning them for
Speaker 1: not managing those lands and saying we have to we
Speaker 1: have to give them to someone else. I mean, that
Speaker 1: dynamic I think is just dark. Yeah, it's been a
Speaker 1: lot of dwelling on that issue. And and if if
Speaker 1: you're serious about them doing a better job, we need
Speaker 1: to fund them to do that we need to fund
Speaker 1: law enforcement for those agencies to be able to make
Speaker 1: sure that those places are are secure. Um. And we
Speaker 1: need to be able to fund the thinning projects, the
Speaker 1: habitat management, all the other things that a good land
Speaker 1: manager can do. Yeah. And I think too that they've
Speaker 1: recently taken some steps right to sort of address the
Speaker 1: fire the wildfire issue, which is huge progress, I will say.
Speaker 1: You know, so you're feeling optimistic about that. That was
Speaker 1: you know a lot of us who were engaged in
Speaker 1: that have been working on it for six seven years UM.
Speaker 1: And it was truly bipartisan. You had people like Ron
Speaker 1: Wyden of Oregon and Mike Crapo of Idaho working together. UM.
Speaker 1: Having that fixed in the recently passed on the Best
Speaker 1: Spending Bill is a huge step forward because what we
Speaker 1: were doing is not managing our forests effectively and spending
Speaker 1: all the money we should have been doing on forest
Speaker 1: restoration and uh UM stewardship contracts. It was all getting
Speaker 1: sucked into the fire budget, and so we were never
Speaker 1: able to get ahead of those fires and create the
Speaker 1: kind of forest that's more resilient where it can burn.
Speaker 1: You know, Ponderosa Pine is supposed to burn every five
Speaker 1: ten years. That's its fire cycle. Um, but you don't
Speaker 1: want it so overstocked that when that fire happens, you
Speaker 1: lose cent of your trees and you can't get ahead
Speaker 1: of that without fixing the fire borrowing that was going on.
Speaker 1: And the entire budget of the forest surface was just
Speaker 1: getting swallowed by fighting fires. Yeah, and then not having
Speaker 1: any funds to do anything proactive to prevent future exactly
Speaker 1: catastrophic fires. And where we've you know, we have seen
Speaker 1: these stewardship contracts. I've done a lot of work with
Speaker 1: Jeff Flake of Arizona on four service stewardship contracts that
Speaker 1: sort of combine habitat management with small scale timber management,
Speaker 1: all together with travel. And at the end of these projects,
Speaker 1: you have something that's good for Turkey habitat, you have
Speaker 1: something that's good for Elk habitat, you have something that
Speaker 1: is providing uh jobs at the local level, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know those we should be putting money into those
Speaker 1: kinds of projects, but it was all getting sucked into
Speaker 1: the fire budget for years. You mentioned Jeff Flake, what's
Speaker 1: been your experience when you sort, you know, as people say,
Speaker 1: working across the aisle right, Like, what's been your experience
Speaker 1: on conservation issues you worked with Lisa Murkowski. You gotta
Speaker 1: find you gotta find people you can trust. Trust is
Speaker 1: bigger than anything else. And you know, Jeff and I
Speaker 1: did that crazy reality TV show a few years ago
Speaker 1: where they dropped us off in the South Pacific together, uh,
Speaker 1: and we proved that you know, when when death is
Speaker 1: the alternative. Republicans and Democrats work together. But because of
Speaker 1: that experience of spending a week together, we trust each other.
Speaker 1: So we're worlds apart politically on a lot of issues,
Speaker 1: but we can pick up the phone and figure out
Speaker 1: very quickly if if a particular project is something we
Speaker 1: want to work on together, and if we're gonna work
Speaker 1: on it, neither one of us is trying to pull
Speaker 1: a political fast one on the other. So you gotta
Speaker 1: That's that's what trust is. Yeah, you gotta find people
Speaker 1: you can trust and then figure out where the overlap
Speaker 1: is where you agree and and just go all in
Speaker 1: and are you able to have candid conversations about that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You can only have candid conversations if
Speaker 1: you have trust. And so much of the breakdown around
Speaker 1: here is that people don't know their colleagues. Well, they
Speaker 1: don't spend enough time with their colleagues. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: Jeff and I really tried to get the two sides
Speaker 1: to start having bipartisan lunches. We forced the issue enough
Speaker 1: that it happened for a while, and then you know,
Speaker 1: people fall back into their old ways of all the
Speaker 1: Democrats meet for a lunch and all the Republicans meet
Speaker 1: for a lunch. Um. So if you're dedicated to those ideas,
Speaker 1: you can you can find space and and push forward, uh,
Speaker 1: and get some things done. And that's that's what keeps
Speaker 1: me going. As challenging as it is to get things
Speaker 1: done around here. I had a conservation bill, uh called
Speaker 1: flip foots, the Federal Land Transaction Facilitation Act. It's a mouthful,
Speaker 1: but being a real public and working on that for
Speaker 1: ten years and we got it done this year. You know. So, Uh,
Speaker 1: you have to be patient, you have to be dogged.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those places where even Chairman Bishop
Speaker 1: and I agree, and so you know, I needed people
Speaker 1: on the House side who would push for that. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: tell me about stream access sort of your your vision
Speaker 1: on it. In a handful of examples where it's being
Speaker 1: discussed and hashed out, and well, I think we've seen
Speaker 1: a lot of changes in New Mexico over the years
Speaker 1: on stream access, and I think it is not something
Speaker 1: that you've seen groups like background country hunters and anglersh
Speaker 1: really step up on that issue. We've seen some great
Speaker 1: leadership at the local level in New Mexico with the
Speaker 1: New Mexico Wildlife Federation, but it is it is not
Speaker 1: sort of created the national concert conservation uh conversation that
Speaker 1: we've seen around some other hot button issues. And I
Speaker 1: would love to see more of that because I think
Speaker 1: we are losing stream access at a faster rate then
Speaker 1: we're losing access to public lands. I want to I
Speaker 1: want to just step in real quick and bring people
Speaker 1: up to up to speed. I just a you can
Speaker 1: add that Suppoially want to give people a general understanding
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about stream access. UM.
Speaker 1: If you've ever gone put a canoe or raft or
Speaker 1: inner tube into a river and floated down a stream
Speaker 1: or river and on either bank is private land, Uh,
Speaker 1: you're doing something. You're you're utilizing your state's stream access laws.
Speaker 1: It's it's what allows you to be on a river
Speaker 1: when it allows you to publicly access a river when
Speaker 1: the banks of the river are privately owned. And you know,
Speaker 1: of course these you know, large main stem rivers in
Speaker 1: America are are not contested. Like, no, when you're floating
Speaker 1: down the Mississippi, no landowners gonna come out and yell
Speaker 1: at you that you're on their property. But as streams
Speaker 1: and rivers get smaller and smaller, they enter into these
Speaker 1: contested areas. Being that a mad that there's a drainage
Speaker 1: ditch flowing through someone's egg field. You're not gonna be
Speaker 1: able to walk up that drainage ditch and say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm in the water, I'm not in your land. And
Speaker 1: so the battle gets fought over what constitutes a public stream. Um.
Speaker 1: Some states have clarified it using great, very precise language. Um,
Speaker 1: if it was used for commerce, if it has a
Speaker 1: historic record of being used for commerce, it's a publicly
Speaker 1: accessible stream. So if you can go back on the
Speaker 1: historic record, and states will do this, and they'll find
Speaker 1: that a guy floated a load of logs down the
Speaker 1: river in eighteen twenty two, a mill or or ferry
Speaker 1: to bushel of wheat down that thing that was open
Speaker 1: for commerce. It was historically used for commerce. It's open
Speaker 1: for commerce and transport today. Another issue on stream access
Speaker 1: would be um that where if let's say there's a
Speaker 1: drought in the river level goes down, um in your
Speaker 1: walking on land that is generally covered by water, but
Speaker 1: it's not covered by Now are you legal so that
Speaker 1: you could be in an area where you have to
Speaker 1: be in the water. You could be in an area
Speaker 1: in Wyoming, right, or is it Colorado where you can
Speaker 1: be in a boat on a river but you can't
Speaker 1: set an anchor and you can't get out of your
Speaker 1: boat because because the bottom you know, both both those
Speaker 1: states are like that. Yeah, So there they say, and
Speaker 1: this is where it gets like confusing, as they'll say, Oh,
Speaker 1: the water is public, but if you put your foot
Speaker 1: out and hit the gravel on the bottom of the river,
Speaker 1: you're trespassing. So there's all these you know, there's all
Speaker 1: of these different variations on that you can be anywhere
Speaker 1: below the high water mark that um that you can
Speaker 1: be you can only be in areas that are above
Speaker 1: mean stream flow or average flow. And it tends to
Speaker 1: me a state issue, and that that's the legal fabric,
Speaker 1: but there's also a historical fabric of it used to
Speaker 1: be that if you were respectful of private land, there
Speaker 1: are lot of streams that you could just weigh up
Speaker 1: in New Mexico that had historic access acts. Waters access
Speaker 1: is actually written into our state's constitution. And yet we
Speaker 1: had a bill passed UH largely driven, I believe by
Speaker 1: out of state interests who want to be able to
Speaker 1: come in and buy their chunk of the Chama River,
Speaker 1: their chunk of the Los Pinos River, their chunk of
Speaker 1: the Pacos River, and be able to control that in
Speaker 1: its entirety. And right, and then here comes some joe
Speaker 1: blow wander and by fishing. Right, Yeah, and you're like, what,
Speaker 1: so that that tension has is very real. Today the
Speaker 1: balance has shifted, and I think there's going to be
Speaker 1: a showdown eventually in the courts over which one of
Speaker 1: whether that law is even constitutional given uh New Mexico's history. So,
Speaker 1: so can you explain kind of can you give me
Speaker 1: a little more detail about like what's being debated or
Speaker 1: what's at stake in New Mexico? Is it is it
Speaker 1: that new things might open up, or things that are
Speaker 1: open now might become Things that have been historically open
Speaker 1: are more and more closed. So we're seeing just less
Speaker 1: access to some of these rivers, and what would the
Speaker 1: showdown look like. I think it'll I think it will
Speaker 1: end up in court. We're but we're also seeing a
Speaker 1: lot of political spending by the same folks who are
Speaker 1: buying up those those trophy properties and saying I want
Speaker 1: to be able to have guided clients come in and
Speaker 1: and fish my stretch of river, right and I don't
Speaker 1: want them to see other anglers. UM. They are putting
Speaker 1: a lot of money into the political system, and I
Speaker 1: think that's why part of why you saw a law
Speaker 1: passed in a in a state that historically UM has
Speaker 1: been more on the access side of the equation. Is
Speaker 1: there any area in federal where where federal politics influence
Speaker 1: stream access? I think largely just in being able to
Speaker 1: utilize UM things like the Land and Water Conservation Fund
Speaker 1: legislation like the Hunt Act to be able to UH
Speaker 1: to secure new access points to make sure those things
Speaker 1: can't happen river access points UM, and you know, and
Speaker 1: spending UM those federal gaming fish dollars too, and the
Speaker 1: recreation dollars on things like boat ramps and other things
Speaker 1: that can sort of formalize that in partnership with local
Speaker 1: Game and Fish. I was very surprised to hear not
Speaker 1: long ago that every county in the United States has
Speaker 1: utilized land and water conservation funds. Not amazing. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a program that is created open up so
Speaker 1: much quality habitat in the West, but it's also created
Speaker 1: thousands of soccer field And think like that little park
Speaker 1: that you know, that neighborhood that didn't have a park
Speaker 1: suddenly has a neighborhood park. Well, that's a huge quality
Speaker 1: of life issue for some You know, if you have
Speaker 1: kids plan in a park, they're going to be healthier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that like, until you have little kids,
Speaker 1: you could give a ship less and then like all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you find yourself living in a neighborhood
Speaker 1: that the parks either a half a block or ten
Speaker 1: blocks away, and you realize, yeah, it's a game changer
Speaker 1: because you're there all the time for the next five
Speaker 1: years of your life. Having children definitely opened me up
Speaker 1: to the to that idea, an awareness of green space
Speaker 1: and parks because you know, as a grown up with
Speaker 1: no kids just jumping and d but when you're dealing
Speaker 1: with this, like people need to take naps and have
Speaker 1: snacks all the time. You start like, you start becoming
Speaker 1: very aware of sort of like immediately available places to
Speaker 1: get your kids outside. Absolutely, because they think from their perspective,
Speaker 1: they are on the wilderness, you know, when you're two
Speaker 1: ft tall. Absolutely, and and that's a that's a kids
Speaker 1: are healthier when they're when they're exposed to that, whether
Speaker 1: it's a neighborhood park. Uh. And then maybe the neighborhood
Speaker 1: park leads to other things. And we created, ah, we're
Speaker 1: in the process of creating an urban wildlife refuge in
Speaker 1: very close to downtown Albuquerque. It's out of town, but
Speaker 1: it's in an area where there's lots of resident residential
Speaker 1: property as well along the Rio Grand where you know,
Speaker 1: fourth graders can come and learn about about nature and
Speaker 1: about ripe parian areas and about wildlife and about flyways
Speaker 1: and um. You know, I've been working with Lamar Alexander
Speaker 1: on taking that every Kid in the Park thing that
Speaker 1: the Obama administration did for fourth graders, where they said
Speaker 1: you can come and and you can get free access
Speaker 1: as a fourth grader to any of your public lands
Speaker 1: or any of your national parks. And we're trying to
Speaker 1: formalize that for all public lands, realizing that all out
Speaker 1: of these families have never actually, you know, in Albuquerque,
Speaker 1: have never maybe been to the top of the Sandy
Speaker 1: As just a few miles away. And there's a story
Speaker 1: like that in every state, in every county around the
Speaker 1: around the country. And our kids are so plugged into
Speaker 1: these devices that we have got to find ways to
Speaker 1: um get them in touch with reality. Yeah, I've heard
Speaker 1: you mentioned a couple of times to talk about the
Speaker 1: We can't expect people to get invested in conservation and
Speaker 1: wildlife habitat if they just don't even know what those
Speaker 1: things mean, or that they don't know that the treasures
Speaker 1: that are out there for them to utilize, like they're
Speaker 1: not gonna care about preserving them. It's fantastic that you
Speaker 1: can you can turn on PBS or watch BBC Nature
Speaker 1: and see amazing things. But nothing gets people more in
Speaker 1: gauge than than personal experience. And that's why I mean,
Speaker 1: we've got these hundreds of millions of acres of public land.
Speaker 1: We need to make sure that people know it's theirs
Speaker 1: and are are out using it. That will create a
Speaker 1: whole new generation conservationists. What do you think is gonna
Speaker 1: happen with the Land and Water Conservation fonly what needs
Speaker 1: to happen. What do you think will happen? Well, it
Speaker 1: expires again in the authorization for it expires at the
Speaker 1: in September of this year. Why is it always expiring?
Speaker 1: Why is it? Is it or is it just my
Speaker 1: perception of it that it's always like imperiled somehow? Now
Speaker 1: you're right, because there are many of us who have
Speaker 1: tried tried to say, this is such a successful program.
Speaker 1: It's actually the poster child of a federal program that works.
Speaker 1: So let's just extend it in perpetuity, because we always
Speaker 1: extend it. Right at the end of the day, people
Speaker 1: love this program for some period of time people, but
Speaker 1: there has been for those people who want to change
Speaker 1: that program, change its direction, move it away from habitat
Speaker 1: and public lands. And and say, you know, you were
Speaker 1: talking with German bishop, and I think he represented that
Speaker 1: not much of this goes to the states. Well about
Speaker 1: half of it goes to state side. Um, it is
Speaker 1: a good balance right now of state and federal priorities
Speaker 1: and of urban and rural Uh. And I think we
Speaker 1: just need to extend it to a permanent reauthorization rather
Speaker 1: than try and say, oh, this this program, this is
Speaker 1: what we're going to use to fix the infrastructure problem
Speaker 1: that we have, uh for all of these agencies. That's
Speaker 1: not why Land and Water was created. It was to
Speaker 1: say we were going to have a balance. We we
Speaker 1: lease offshore oil revenues and some of that should go
Speaker 1: into habitat and balancing that out. And it's worked amazingly well.
Speaker 1: I mean I talked about the virus Caldera that that
Speaker 1: we've is a national preserve in New Mexico that all
Speaker 1: of us used to drive on this one little highway
Speaker 1: through and look out and just salivate at what it's
Speaker 1: New Mexico's Yellowstone. It's this high, uh high elevation, meadows,
Speaker 1: reverse tree line, surrounded by volcanic peaks, covered in timber,
Speaker 1: huge herd of elk, and none of us. Thirty years
Speaker 1: ago it was private property. You know. You everybody dreamed
Speaker 1: about being able to ski in there or hunt in there,
Speaker 1: or fish in there, and today we can't because of
Speaker 1: the Land and Water Conservation fund UM. And that's what
Speaker 1: it was created for. So that's what we should do
Speaker 1: with it. We should extend it in perpetuity. And we
Speaker 1: should figure out what the right dollar amount is and
Speaker 1: make that permanent as well. Do you think that that
Speaker 1: will happen? I think it will be extended. Uh. I
Speaker 1: think whether or not it gets extended in perpetuity will
Speaker 1: kind of depend on who the chairman and are in
Speaker 1: the relevant committees. UM. I don't think it would happen
Speaker 1: to a chairman, bishop and in charge. No, he's pretty
Speaker 1: skeptical program. Absolutely, And you know this idea that the
Speaker 1: thing that bothers me too is this idea that people
Speaker 1: are somehow out there making a living off the Land
Speaker 1: and Water Conservation Fund. That there are special interests. I'm
Speaker 1: using air quotes right now for our listeners that are
Speaker 1: uh spun up using this program for their own devices.
Speaker 1: For these special interests, the Rocky Mountain ELK Foundation. I
Speaker 1: mean when you look at the projects in your state,
Speaker 1: I mean these are I don't consider Rocky Mountain ELK
Speaker 1: to be a special interest. Um. There are there are
Speaker 1: these groups that that do this work, which is hard
Speaker 1: where you're interfacing with a a private landowner who maybe
Speaker 1: has an in holding in some really important habitat and
Speaker 1: you're able to use Land and Water Conservation Fund moneys
Speaker 1: to secure an easement or fee simple acquisition of that
Speaker 1: to protect an elk herd's wintering range or their calving grounds.
Speaker 1: That's not special interest anything. That's that's that's a good conservation. Yeah, yeah, Chairman,
Speaker 1: we didn't have time to get into it into the
Speaker 1: details this but but you don't even need to respond
Speaker 1: to this. But UM Chairman Rob Bishop had explained or
Speaker 1: his view was that people, specially interests, will by land
Speaker 1: UM and then turn profits by then getting it absorbed
Speaker 1: through Land and Water Conservation Fund moneys. All I can
Speaker 1: say from New Mexico's perspective is that that's not been
Speaker 1: our perspective and that's not been our experience, and that's
Speaker 1: why we have appraisals, right like you should. You have
Speaker 1: to have guardrails on any program, and we do UM.
Speaker 1: You know, land gets appraised and you figure out what
Speaker 1: the actual value is. We have this place, this place
Speaker 1: called Ute Mountain that's in Rio Grande del Norte National Monument,
Speaker 1: that used to be private land and it's it is
Speaker 1: now not only in the public hands, but it's one
Speaker 1: of the most important chunks of habitat up there and
Speaker 1: in an area that is absolutely critical for herds of
Speaker 1: Elka mule dear that we share with Colorado. UM, and
Speaker 1: you just couldn't. We could have never done that project
Speaker 1: without the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and nobody made
Speaker 1: money off of it. Do you have You've been very
Speaker 1: generous with your time. Do you have time for one more? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I do. Can you can you talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about your perspective on the Antiquities Act, particularly with how
Speaker 1: it's related to some of the debates, the national debates
Speaker 1: you've been having about monuments. You bet. Uh. New Mexico
Speaker 1: has a long history with anti antiquities because we have
Speaker 1: this historical figure I think his name is egger Lee
Speaker 1: Hewitt who UM was sort of in the ear of
Speaker 1: Congressman Lacey who drafted it and exactly right, Yeah, as
Speaker 1: Congressman Lacey of Iowa as well as UM you know
Speaker 1: President Roosevelt, and he was really interested in protecting some
Speaker 1: areas in New Mexico that now you would think of
Speaker 1: as Bandalia National Monument and Chaco Canyon. Uh. And he
Speaker 1: helped draft the the Antiquities Act. And I think some
Speaker 1: of the misinformation you hear as things like, oh, this
Speaker 1: was only designed to protect a postage stamp around a
Speaker 1: particular archaeological site. Well, I think the first thing out
Speaker 1: of the gate that it was used for was Devil's Tower,
Speaker 1: which is not a postage stamp and not it has
Speaker 1: huge cultural significance, but as a large UH geologic feature,
Speaker 1: and it has language written right into it that says
Speaker 1: scientific features can be protected with this. T R used
Speaker 1: it to protect Roosevelt Elk as an object under the
Speaker 1: Antiquities Act when he created the Mount Olympus National Monument.
Speaker 1: So there's this long history that that right out of
Speaker 1: the gate by the people who created and and signed
Speaker 1: this in the law counters the language you hear today
Speaker 1: that is really more about catering to specific vested UH
Speaker 1: financial interests. And you see that embarrass ears um. You
Speaker 1: know Congressman Bishop was very much against the two monuments
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. Well, if he had gone and done
Speaker 1: a public hearing the way that Secretary Salazar did, he'd
Speaker 1: know that in Tao, it's not a not a single
Speaker 1: person stood up and opposed the creation of that monument.
Speaker 1: You think about anything you could find today where you
Speaker 1: actually have unanimity of thought that is unheard of in
Speaker 1: our political context and yet it existed there, and to
Speaker 1: have to fight for this stuff that really grew out
Speaker 1: of the grassroots community level, that was supported by mayors
Speaker 1: and city councilors and and land grant heirs and hunters
Speaker 1: and fishermen and and guides and like it bothers me
Speaker 1: that that is under attack when we have these incredible
Speaker 1: examples of why it's so important and this personally, I
Speaker 1: used to guide up in what is today Bear series.
Speaker 1: I used to run a outdoor education uh nonprofit called
Speaker 1: Cotton with Gulch Expeditions, and I can tell you that country.
Speaker 1: There's a reason why it's so important to the tribes,
Speaker 1: and I've represented a number of those tribes and they've
Speaker 1: been very explicit with me about that connection. But it's
Speaker 1: also a world class resource and an amazing place to hunt.
Speaker 1: I mean that the elk herd up there today. I
Speaker 1: was up there with my family a little over a
Speaker 1: year ago during spring break, and um, the deer, the turkey,
Speaker 1: the bear resource on Cedar masis absolutely incredible, and so
Speaker 1: we need to realize that those things come under threat
Speaker 1: when you unprotect a big swath of this as well.
Speaker 1: I think that that the argument you started out with
Speaker 1: is something that would be helpful, um like, as we
Speaker 1: engage with this and as you have to debate points
Speaker 1: of it, that idea like tackling it from the originalism perspective,
Speaker 1: because I think oftentimes people will take things like Land
Speaker 1: and Water Conservation Fund, they'll take things like the Antiquities Act,
Speaker 1: and they'll people who are generally opposed to how those
Speaker 1: things are used will generally go back to, well, this
Speaker 1: is what it was supposed to do. Let's let's debate
Speaker 1: what it was supposed to do originally and sort of
Speaker 1: pull it out of its contemporary context, even though things
Speaker 1: like change all the time, and our and our needs
Speaker 1: changed and our desires change, right, and when we were
Speaker 1: always like kind of trying to interpret old pieces of
Speaker 1: legislation or older ideas and interpret like, what is the
Speaker 1: meaning of it? How can we apply it to today?
Speaker 1: But it's really interesting that you brought up those points
Speaker 1: about that you're comfortable talking about original the Antiquities Act
Speaker 1: because you don't think that it's you don't think that's
Speaker 1: inconsistent with our state was right at the heart of that.
Speaker 1: So and we've got these amazing examples of how it's
Speaker 1: been used over time, whether that's white sands or bandalier
Speaker 1: because the thing you here is like the landscape scale use.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that some of those early places were
Speaker 1: in fact bigger than one little the Grand Canyon one
Speaker 1: little antiquity. Yeah, the Grand Canyon, like that was not
Speaker 1: one little antiquity. If you've ever seen a picture of it,
Speaker 1: or you've been at the bottom of the Grand Canyon,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that was one of the earliest
Speaker 1: use uses of the Antiquities Act. No one probably feels
Speaker 1: comfortable debating those, know. I think a big question that
Speaker 1: comes up a lot is like, what if you can't
Speaker 1: explain it quickly, what's the main difference between when something's
Speaker 1: protected by the Antiquities Act and let's just say if
Speaker 1: it's run by the BLM or if it's National forest.
Speaker 1: With the Antiquities Act, typically what happens is the President
Speaker 1: rights a proclamation, uh, and you can have you can
Speaker 1: have national monuments under any agencies designation. Right, So you
Speaker 1: can have a monument that is Park Service, that is
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management, that is US Fish and Wildlife Service,
Speaker 1: that is Forced Service. There's a way to to sort
Speaker 1: of fit it to the agency. And we have for
Speaker 1: Service monuments. We have BLM monuments that are managed very
Speaker 1: differently than Park Service man monuments, especially especially with respect
Speaker 1: to hunting and fishing. Um, I'm sorry, Johnnie, what were saying.
Speaker 1: I don't know you were you were getting at it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but just the like, the difference and how and how
Speaker 1: it's managed. Like from just the like or someone coming
Speaker 1: up to when we wrote the proclamation for the President
Speaker 1: to sign for the Oregon Mountains Desert Peaks National Monument
Speaker 1: in New Mexico or the Rio Grande del Norte National
Speaker 1: Monument UH in New Mexico, we wrote in to make
Speaker 1: sure that we protected those things, and you manage it
Speaker 1: in a certain way. You have a lot of control
Speaker 1: within the confines of that proclamation to say, here are
Speaker 1: the objects we are seeking to protect and and here's
Speaker 1: how we want you to now manage this. That is
Speaker 1: in contrast to full scale multiple use where anything goes
Speaker 1: and so you're gonna have areas where the dominant land
Speaker 1: use on BLM land is producing oil and gas. Um,
Speaker 1: there are places where the habitat values or the cultural
Speaker 1: values or what you're seeking to protect should trump that
Speaker 1: kind of intensive development. And that's what you can write
Speaker 1: into a proclamation and keep from happening. So typically you
Speaker 1: do not have a new open pit mine or oil
Speaker 1: and gas development, a new highway transmission lines being built
Speaker 1: on those monuments. UH protected it under the Antiquities Act.
Speaker 1: Got it, And all that sort of stuff could be
Speaker 1: a possibility under regular BLM happens the time people get
Speaker 1: the right lease and and sometimes even under current law
Speaker 1: you have pieces of public land which get spun off
Speaker 1: into private ownership through a planning process. So none of
Speaker 1: that can happen once a place is protected and reserved
Speaker 1: under the Antiquities Act. I think what you're getting as
Speaker 1: an important thing I think that hunters and anglers need
Speaker 1: to realize about monuments is not all monuments are created equal,
Speaker 1: and I think that people view them as a monument
Speaker 1: is a slippery slope to national park where the hunters
Speaker 1: and anglers aren't welcome, and it's really not the case.
Speaker 1: You really when when when we're talking about monuments, you
Speaker 1: have to look at each individual place and look at
Speaker 1: what the mandate is and the intent is. Because these
Speaker 1: like BLM monuments, there's not a conversation on these about
Speaker 1: and when you see like the Rio Grande del Norte
Speaker 1: National Monument has a big horn sheep hunt now that
Speaker 1: did not exist when it was just blm land. Uh.
Speaker 1: The trophy big horns coming out of there. The buddy
Speaker 1: of mine's UH guide up in Taos fishing guide. He
Speaker 1: got a great bowl elk in the monument a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago. I've seen monster mule e's harvested in
Speaker 1: that in that monument. So because that community, that sportsman's
Speaker 1: community there in Taos County was in at the ground
Speaker 1: floor saying we want a monument, but we want it
Speaker 1: to be managed for wildlife and open to hunting and
Speaker 1: fishing and got it written and they got it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you have any I'm gonna leave it open ended
Speaker 1: for you to um add any kind of thoughts or
Speaker 1: anything you want to make sure people understand or whatever
Speaker 1: you want to do. UM. Once you feel like you
Speaker 1: just said it all, yeah, you know, I would just
Speaker 1: say this is this stuff may not get talked about
Speaker 1: on on CNN every night or pick your cable news show,
Speaker 1: but it's the stuff that makes America truly unique in
Speaker 1: the world. UM. So you know, if you're passionate about it,
Speaker 1: find uh, find like minded people and UH and make
Speaker 1: a difference for these things that we care about. Yes,
Speaker 1: get final thoughts, um. I was just thinking about uh access,
Speaker 1: and I hope we have to have a conversation. It's
Speaker 1: probably might not be in our lifetimes. Maybe it will be,
Speaker 1: but where we do have so many users and so
Speaker 1: many lovers of all this stuff that we might actually
Speaker 1: have to talk about limiting it because you can love
Speaker 1: a place to death, you know, but that would be
Speaker 1: like a good comment, that would be good goal is
Speaker 1: that you know, so many people want to be in
Speaker 1: the mountains that we have to talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: drawing permits, which we have a little bit across there's
Speaker 1: places Smith River usually about just plenty of them. Three
Speaker 1: miles into a roadless area gets a little thinner. But
Speaker 1: come spend some time in New Mexico. We we don't
Speaker 1: have the crowded trails that other states have and it's
Speaker 1: such an amazing I mean, to be able to go
Speaker 1: out and backpacking the HeLa. I did a fifty three
Speaker 1: mile backpack in the HeLa a few years ago and gosh,
Speaker 1: I ran into almost no one on that handful of people.
Speaker 1: People use the term campaign trail. Do you ever campaign
Speaker 1: on the trail? That's where I decided. That was where
Speaker 1: I decided to run for public office. Is the Heilo
Speaker 1: Wilderness on a backpack. So Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Great to be here.