1
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

2
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: vog bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

3
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Okay, We're coming from Washington, d C,

4
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 1: the nation's capital, and we're joined by a very special guest,

5
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,720
Speaker 1: Senator Martin Heinrich. But first, UM, I want to touch

6
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,520
Speaker 1: on something real quick. So the Mediator Podcast Live Tour.

7
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:48,560
Speaker 1: We're coming out to four different cities soon. We have Denver, Colorado,

8
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 1: tempor Arizona, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Columbus, Ohio. If you want to

9
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 1: check out about getting your tickets to come meet me,

10
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: the Latvian Eagle are actual guests that will be announcing soon.

11
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,320
Speaker 1: You can go to www. Dot Mediator dot live and

12
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 1: get all the info you need. I look forward to

13
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,760
Speaker 1: meeting you and you're how this is how far into

14
00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:15,960
Speaker 1: you are on your on your So I'm five years

15
00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 1: into my first Senate term. I spent four years in

16
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,320
Speaker 1: the House before that. You guys like senators get a

17
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:27,680
Speaker 1: nice generous term compared to I would. I would agree.

18
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,520
Speaker 1: I think that the House term, the two year term,

19
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 1: is part of the part of the problem. Um, it's

20
00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,800
Speaker 1: really hard to do anything to do any long term

21
00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 1: thinking when you're in the House of Representatives, because you

22
00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 1: have a two year term. You have a two year term,

23
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 1: you know, a year in and you're already completely consumed

24
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 1: with your re election. So everyone's gonna be like a

25
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: senator has even longer than the president. But then you guys,

26
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 1: it's not as nice as the Supreme Court justice. Well

27
00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, I guess everybody has there advantages and disadvantag

28
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: just I like. The thing I like about the Senate

29
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 1: is as soon as I moved over from the House,

30
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: I was able to take on projects that would have

31
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 1: a longer time horizon and to really think about more difficult,

32
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,520
Speaker 1: long term problems. And when you think about conservation, you know,

33
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,839
Speaker 1: we have a place, the Vice cald Ea in New

34
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: Mexico that is now in public hands. It's a huge

35
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,800
Speaker 1: success story, but people started working on it a hundred

36
00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,760
Speaker 1: years ago, in like nineteen sixt so you need to

37
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 1: that's when the idea for a bill to do something

38
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,639
Speaker 1: to put that in public hands first took shape. And

39
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 1: so it's it's good to have the room to think

40
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 1: big um and you can do that in the Senate.

41
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,080
Speaker 1: You still have to deal with all the day to

42
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: day stuff and the the things that are right in

43
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,359
Speaker 1: front of you, but you can also look out into

44
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,560
Speaker 1: the future and say, what are we going to do

45
00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,799
Speaker 1: to get to where we want to be? I wanna, yeah,

46
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 1: I want to get into some of that stuff. I

47
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 1: want to get into some of the details with you

48
00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,240
Speaker 1: about the thinking on long term conservation projects. But can

49
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,400
Speaker 1: we back up a little bit or back not a

50
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 1: little bit, back way up? Can you walk me through

51
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,640
Speaker 1: sort of how how you're kind of how your career

52
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,720
Speaker 1: went and how you came to be, you know, sitting

53
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,799
Speaker 1: in the US Senate. So like when you became aware,

54
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,640
Speaker 1: when you became aware of that that would be a

55
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 1: thing that was possible. I can do that. It won't

56
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 1: seem particularly planned out or logical to you. Um. So,

57
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,840
Speaker 1: I'm an engineer by training, and if I had known

58
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 1: that I was going to go into public service, I

59
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: would have spent a lot less time taken differential equations

60
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,080
Speaker 1: and heat transfer classes because those who are hard. Um.

61
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, I got interested. I was always

62
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: interested in politics. But there was a moment back in

63
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 1: the nineties when I had settled down in Albuquerque after college,

64
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 1: when I really first started thinking about running for office. Well,

65
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 1: what was it that made you interested in nearing? I

66
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 1: just like how things work, and I had an aptitude

67
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 1: for math and science, and probably a high school guidance

68
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,120
Speaker 1: counselor said i've seen your scores, you should be an engineer.

69
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 1: And didn't discover something along the way that that necessarily

70
00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,839
Speaker 1: pulled me off that track until after I had the

71
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 1: degree and settled in New Mexico. Did you start doing

72
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,480
Speaker 1: engineering work? I did right out of the gate. I

73
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 1: was doing some work out at Air Force Research Labs

74
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 1: and uh, working on directed energy, which is an area

75
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,520
Speaker 1: lasers and microwave stuff that I still work on today.

76
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 1: From a policy point of view, Yeah, because you got

77
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,479
Speaker 1: into I know, you've got interested in renewables and being

78
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 1: in New Mexico interested in solar Yeah. No, that that too.

79
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 1: I mean that was something that grew out of my

80
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 1: engineering days and the early nineties a group of us

81
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,640
Speaker 1: built a carbon five or solar car that we raced

82
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,080
Speaker 1: from Dallas to Minneapolis. And that's when I first started

83
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,599
Speaker 1: thinking that, you know, this stuff is scalable. Yea, So

84
00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: tell me what happened in Albuquerque? Then when you kind

85
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,240
Speaker 1: of had your political uh you know, awakening or you know,

86
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,480
Speaker 1: I UM, I decided that I would run for the

87
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: city council. And before that, I worked on some campaigns

88
00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,800
Speaker 1: to to get the sort of you know, to understand

89
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,040
Speaker 1: how stuff works. UM. And so I ran some campaigns.

90
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,719
Speaker 1: I ran a statewide land commissioner campaign that didn't work out.

91
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: I ran I worked for the Speaker of the House

92
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 1: trying to maintain his majority, and helped sort of man

93
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 1: not day to day manage, but keep all of his

94
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 1: candidates moving in the right direction. And that kind of

95
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,039
Speaker 1: gave me the skills to then take on a city

96
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,200
Speaker 1: council race. And that was as far as I was

97
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: looking out towards the horizon. And uh, you know, once

98
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 1: I was on the council, people started encouraging me to

99
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 1: run for a congressional seat. Uh. It was a very

100
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: contested seat. It had never been held by a Democrat

101
00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: in its history. Uh. And that was two thousand and eight.

102
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,479
Speaker 1: I won that seat, and then a few years three,

103
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,640
Speaker 1: a little over two years later, the senior senator retires,

104
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,159
Speaker 1: so another Senate seat opens up. So it was all

105
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 1: sort of very very quick and not not something I

106
00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 1: planned out. I didn't I never planned to be an

107
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 1: elected official, much less a United States Senator, When did

108
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,359
Speaker 1: you within that, like in your life, when did you

109
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 1: become kind of aware of the natural world and become

110
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: interested in I was an environmentalism conservation. I was hugely

111
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 1: interested in the natural world as a child. We had

112
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 1: a small sort of cow calf operation when I was

113
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 1: a kid in Missouri, UM. And when we when we

114
00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,359
Speaker 1: didn't have that, we were living at the sort of

115
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,720
Speaker 1: the edge of a small town where there were creeks

116
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 1: and places. I would come home after school and I

117
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,560
Speaker 1: just disappeared into the outdoors. And Uh, I always had

118
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,080
Speaker 1: a strong interest in that. My parents really fostered that.

119
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 1: They thought it was great. Uh. My mom didn't always appreciate,

120
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, snakes coming home into the house or uh

121
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 1: the day that my dad brought a tarantula home and

122
00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,680
Speaker 1: left it on the kitchen counter and a fish bowl

123
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 1: and by the time she came home, it wasn't in

124
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 1: the fish bowl anymore. But for the most part, But

125
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: for the most part, they really fostered my interest in

126
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 1: the outdoors. So did they come from an egg background. Yeah,

127
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: my dad grew up interesting story. He immigrated here in

128
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,320
Speaker 1: the thirties from Germany as a young child. UM. But

129
00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,680
Speaker 1: quickly learned to cowboy when he was just becoming a

130
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 1: teenager and had years of history running feed lots and

131
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: running cow calf operations, riding quarter horses. So he was

132
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: a sort of a legit cowboy from Germany in the thirties. Yeah,

133
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,200
Speaker 1: got out when the gutting was good. Yeah, they did.

134
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 1: They got out at the right time. I think they

135
00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: saw the riding on the wall. His his parents, um,

136
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, saw what was going on in lots of

137
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,800
Speaker 1: quarters and said we want a different deal. That's interesting. Yeah,

138
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 1: so he kind of became a German American cowboy. Yeah,

139
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 1: exactly right. And then you but did you grow up

140
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 1: around um, did you grow up around hunting and fishing?

141
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,120
Speaker 1: Were those things you picked up around fishing? My dad

142
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 1: was great about uh. He he enjoyed trout fishing. He

143
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: enjoyed um fishing for you know, warm water fish, catfish

144
00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 1: and uh blue girl and stuff like that. But um,

145
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 1: he was not a good hunting mentor. Uh. He had

146
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 1: worked exploration I think in his twenties and thirties for

147
00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: Anacona copper and was really into geology and if you

148
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 1: got him out on a hunt, he would want to

149
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: look at rocks on the ground instead of being looking

150
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: at at the horizon. Doesn't really lend itself to being

151
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,079
Speaker 1: a good mentor and on that kind that finds more

152
00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: arrowheads and exactly right, Yeah, yeah, I have I have

153
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:05,199
Speaker 1: the I have the looking out far away that we're

154
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 1: looking at the ground tendency. So I tried to teach

155
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:13,679
Speaker 1: myself when I was twelve. Um, didn't have a lot

156
00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,079
Speaker 1: of success. And then when I got into my twenties,

157
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,959
Speaker 1: really took it back up again, found some people who

158
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,720
Speaker 1: were good mentors. Was really getting into wanting to control

159
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: my own food. We were growing a lot of food

160
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,560
Speaker 1: at home. Uh. And it just fit into that in

161
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: a way that Um, you know, I think your show

162
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,840
Speaker 1: really appeals to a different demographic of young hunters. And

163
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,640
Speaker 1: I saw this when you are in New Mexico for

164
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,840
Speaker 1: the New Mexico Game and Fish their annual fundraiser and

165
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: spoke to that crowd. Uh. It was interesting to me

166
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: to see the sort of new hunter old hunter group

167
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 1: groupings in that crowd and how demographically different there's this

168
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: younger generation of backcountry hunters with their trucker hats and

169
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,360
Speaker 1: a real focus on food. Um and uh, and that

170
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,400
Speaker 1: that all of that really appealed to me in my

171
00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, and it's been a kind of adult onset. Honey,

172
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 1: do you in this atmosphere that you're in when you're

173
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:18,360
Speaker 1: like in your professional life as a senator in Washington,

174
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 1: d C. How unusual is it? Um? How unusual is

175
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 1: it to have the background and interest that you have,

176
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,640
Speaker 1: the outdoor background interest, Like when you're talking to your colleagues,

177
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: do you find there's a real disconnect when you're speaking

178
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: about conservation issues? There were people like that? Do they

179
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,079
Speaker 1: that that's part of the challenges I think in our

180
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,480
Speaker 1: country's history. You look back at you know, the founding fathers,

181
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,599
Speaker 1: You look at people like Jefferson, they prided themselves and

182
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,960
Speaker 1: being naturalists. Um that that doesn't exist so much anymore.

183
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: They're a handful of people who you know, Dean Heller

184
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,240
Speaker 1: hunts from horseback on public land. Uh. You know, he's

185
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: got a real interest in it. But there aren't a

186
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,679
Speaker 1: lot of us. They're a handful that that are real

187
00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: passionate about ducks. Uh. Senator Booseman from Arkansas, for example. Um,

188
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,520
Speaker 1: but boy, it's it is not you know, I think

189
00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,480
Speaker 1: it used to be something that really ran through both

190
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: parties and was much more baked into who people are.

191
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's so hard to get

192
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 1: things done today. I mean, I sit on the Migratory

193
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,319
Speaker 1: Bird Conservation Commission. We met this morning. You know that

194
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 1: that whole effort to use duck stamps to buy habitat,

195
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 1: which has been going on since I don't know whenever

196
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 1: we passed the original Migratory Bird Conservation Act. It's still functions,

197
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: but we can't even get KNOCKER reauthorized. And um explain

198
00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 1: the uh the KNOCKER program that does so huch habitat work.

199
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 1: It Most of these bills expire at a certain time,

200
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 1: and in the past you would have such a focus

201
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,559
Speaker 1: on the importance of these things. And you know, hunting

202
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,520
Speaker 1: and fishing doesn't happen without habitat, and the people who

203
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 1: wrote these bills knew that. And that's why we have

204
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,360
Speaker 1: duck stamps, and that's why we have a North American

205
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 1: Waterfowl Conservation Act KNOCKER program that invests in maintaining and

206
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,680
Speaker 1: improving that habitat in our wildlife refugees and in other

207
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,480
Speaker 1: places across the country. And basic things like that just

208
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 1: don't have the same resonance, particularly among leadership. I think

209
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: that they used to have for this body, And that's

210
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 1: one of the things that really worries me. Do you

211
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,680
Speaker 1: think it's because people have it too good right now?

212
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: Not too I don't want to say too good. But

213
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 1: do you think it's because people don't feel like things

214
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 1: are quite on fire the way they might have felt

215
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,960
Speaker 1: in the thirties, or anybody who who actually experienced the

216
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,080
Speaker 1: time in this country where you know, elk were extirpated

217
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 1: from New Mexico right we had zero point out often

218
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,959
Speaker 1: when I give talks, you know, so your home state

219
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 1: there was down to zero elk and I'm sure like

220
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 1: you could pick a particular year on the Carson National

221
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: Forest and see how many mule deer were harvested, and

222
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: you'd probably counted on a hand or two or maybe

223
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,560
Speaker 1: two hands and a foot, like not a lot of

224
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 1: big game, undulate wildlife left in the state. And anybody

225
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 1: who's experienced that, I think has that sense of urgency.

226
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,560
Speaker 1: But I also think there's a disconnection now, uh that

227
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,080
Speaker 1: is not that is not helpful, and uh, you know,

228
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: getting people reconnected to the outdoors, finding ways for folks

229
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: who are completely plugged into their their iPhone and living

230
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,800
Speaker 1: in a more urban environment to understand what actually pays

231
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,640
Speaker 1: for some of this conservation and create a sense of

232
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 1: urgency is a challenge. One of the things I want

233
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 1: to jump back to the real equipment is just the

234
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 1: thing that I'd like to mention that really kind of

235
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 1: made me interested in you when we first met, was

236
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 1: that you had It just seems like so kind of

237
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 1: strange that that is sitting us senator would apply for

238
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,720
Speaker 1: a muzzle loader elk tag in the Healand National Forest

239
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,800
Speaker 1: and then go and do the trip, because I just

240
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,800
Speaker 1: have in my mind for most of our history it's

241
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: been the other way around. But I just have in

242
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 1: my mind that, like I was like, oh, if the Senator,

243
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 1: my hunting would be at some like some duck club.

244
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 1: But that's you know, that is how New Mexicans um

245
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,680
Speaker 1: for for people who rely on that. It's such a

246
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 1: part of who we are that those public lands are.

247
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 1: I would put that experience up again any ranch tag

248
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 1: anywhere in the country, um, you know, to have Plus

249
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: it's it's a challenge to hunt pressured elk too. I

250
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 1: mean it's like, as you know, they behave very differently

251
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: than the ones who like file into the alfalfa field

252
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: at five thirty uh in the afternoon and uh and

253
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 1: I enjoy that that that's that's the time of of

254
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 1: my life that really resets me to who I am,

255
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 1: and it keeps me much more centered here. I think

256
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 1: that that, like, I think that's kind of what that

257
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: that centered nous is what I'm still referring without imagine.

258
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 1: Like when hearing that, I was like, well, here's a

259
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 1: person who presumably has a lot of connections and you know,

260
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 1: points of access, but to just kind of be in there,

261
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 1: I also like to know and not be you know,

262
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 1: just be one of the guys and not be trying

263
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 1: to roll like quote unquote US Senator, it's really good

264
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: to go out and just you know, bump into people

265
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,760
Speaker 1: in the National Forest here doing the same thing you are.

266
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,520
Speaker 1: And you're out on the lands that you know, our owned,

267
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,400
Speaker 1: our that are owned by the people and manage at

268
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: the federal level, which you're involved in, and and you

269
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 1: need that feedback to to to get through some of

270
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 1: the rhetoric back here, I mean, people are saying things

271
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 1: that are working art there in the opposite so staying

272
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 1: very much at the ground level in touch with that

273
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 1: I think is really important. And then I have a

274
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: follow up question because I'm sure everybody's gonna want to

275
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: know were you successful on your on that? So I

276
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 1: should I should step back, And it was actually the

277
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,640
Speaker 1: ce Bowl and National Forests in particular out um. But

278
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, if you can pull a tag on the

279
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: heel that you're doing great, um, and I was. I

280
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 1: I it was. I got a great bowl that year.

281
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 1: It was a really hard hunt and did not get

282
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities and um, finally found a water

283
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,560
Speaker 1: hole where this really old bowl had been uh coming

284
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: in late at night and I got him right before

285
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 1: last shooting light. Scheduling has to be hard. Well, that's

286
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,359
Speaker 1: actually why it was a muscle looader hunt. So here's

287
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 1: the deal. Here's how this works. And in uh, you know,

288
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 1: we get a calendar usually comes out early in the year.

289
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: Leadership sets it, and my hunts are based around is

290
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: there a week when we're at home in October, September,

291
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: November that we're not working and we can be in state.

292
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 1: That's those are the tags I apply for. So it

293
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,120
Speaker 1: can be a bow tag, it can be a rifle tag,

294
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,879
Speaker 1: it can be a muzzle loader tag that gets determined

295
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 1: by my schedule, and so you just try to try

296
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,280
Speaker 1: to overlay the timing that works in this job with

297
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,640
Speaker 1: what's available in the proclamation and and hope it matches up.

298
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,360
Speaker 1: Would you mind walking us through real quick the story

299
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,119
Speaker 1: of the Sabinolsa? Am I saying that right? Sabinolsa know

300
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:08,399
Speaker 1: so is uh is a juniper tree? Can you can

301
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,479
Speaker 1: you talk about what happened there? This is something that

302
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,320
Speaker 1: I've I've explained a number of times. I'd like to

303
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: hear it from you because I know that you were

304
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,840
Speaker 1: involved in it from from the ground up, and I

305
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: think it's something that would uh help listeners sort of

306
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,919
Speaker 1: understand how you can you know, how someone in your

307
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,280
Speaker 1: position who's thinking about these things can help sort of

308
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 1: shape a conversation around a conservation issue. I think that's

309
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,280
Speaker 1: very you know, it's it's recent and very relevant. So

310
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 1: the Savoyo So is an area in north eastern New Mexico.

311
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,400
Speaker 1: It's Bureau of Land Management land. It was a wilderness

312
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 1: study area for a long time, and the BLM recommended

313
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 1: against it because it was too hard to get to

314
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: try to wrap your head around. That recommended again against

315
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 1: it being wilderness because it was too hard to get to.

316
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 1: Now the reality was we had lost access to it.

317
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 1: So it's an area of canyons and Mesa's really kind

318
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 1: of almost red Rock Utah Mountain Lion kind of country, UH,

319
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,640
Speaker 1: really steep uh and and canyons and Masa tops all

320
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 1: jumbled together. Uh. At one point, I'm sure you could

321
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: get into it legally, but at some point, you know,

322
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,400
Speaker 1: private property changed hands and there was no legal access

323
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 1: to it anymore, not by trail, not by road, not

324
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. And in two thousand nine

325
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,159
Speaker 1: it was elevated to a an actual wilderness area in

326
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: the Omnibus Public Lands Act of two thousand nine. Uh

327
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: I had been working for a number of years trying

328
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 1: to identify access into it by purchasing and eastment or

329
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: purchasing land, trying to figure out a way to get

330
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: the public in there. Because um I had had a

331
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 1: chance to go horseback riding in there with um then

332
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 1: Congressman you'd all, now, Senator you'd all, And it's just

333
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 1: an amazing piece of ground and it's public lands, so

334
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 1: it should be open to the public. We hadn't had

335
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 1: a lot of success in that, and this would be

336
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: something that you would look into using private or public funds.

337
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 1: At when I first started, I was it was I was,

338
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 1: I think access chair for the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.

339
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: So we were just looking for a way to do that.

340
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 1: We were talking to game and fish, we were looking

341
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 1: at various programs that might be able to provide funding

342
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: for eastments, uh, you know, talking to land owners, trying

343
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 1: to identify a way to get in there, and found

344
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: some property. It turned out some of the eastments didn't

345
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: didn't actually vet through the legal process um. And so

346
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,119
Speaker 1: there were lots of tries over the years, and the

347
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: Wilderness Land Trust stepped up when there was a opportunity

348
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: for one of the surrounding properties to change hands. And

349
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 1: it's one of the most rugged properties. It's about you know,

350
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: it's about four thousand acres of large, one big deep

351
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: canyon um. But it was it had a legitimate easement

352
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: to a graded public road, had a place where people

353
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: could actually park and then get into all of the

354
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: rest of this this Bureau of Land Management area. And

355
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: how many acres roughly is the is the chunk of

356
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: land that was marooned seventeen thousand Maybe I'd have to

357
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: vet that but that's the number that sticks in my head. Uh. Yeah,

358
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: that's that's what the google was for, right. Um. So

359
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: the Wilderness Land Trust actually bought a property there and

360
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: offered it up to the Bureau of Land Management, with

361
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 1: enormous encouragement from myself, Senator, you do all, Congressman Luhan

362
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: of Northern New Mexico, I mean, the the the sportsman

363
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 1: and public land enthusiasts, and that part of the state

364
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: had wanted to get in there forever and ever. So

365
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: we were very enthusiastically supportive. Um, all of that move forward,

366
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: but it kind of ran out the clock at the

367
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: end of the last administration, and so it rolled over

368
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: into a new administration. But I don't want to spend

369
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 1: too much time on it. But why is it? Why

370
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: does that take work? Sometimes I scratched my head on

371
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: that too. I I this was a gift to the

372
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: American people. It's like a willing seller, a willing private buyer.

373
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: And the willing private buyer says, I'm giving it to

374
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 1: the federal government. Yes, but the Secretary of Interior at

375
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: the end of the day has to accept that gift.

376
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: Do we got we have acreage? Um? And and so

377
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: you know I met with Secretary Zinky before hearing. He

378
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: was not sold on the idea. Um, can you he

379
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: didn't want to add wilderness acreage. I think it's the perspective.

380
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: I mean, to be fair, you should ask him to

381
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: his perspective on that. But he was concerned that, uh,

382
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: you know, you wouldn't want uh, that this had been

383
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: a quote unquote ranch and that it was going to

384
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 1: be wilderness now and you wouldn't want to ranch to

385
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 1: become wilderness. And I'm purely projecting now. I don't want

386
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: to speak for Secretary Zincy at all, but I think

387
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: maybe he had a picture in his mind of Montana,

388
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: where wilderness is something up in the mountains and ranch

389
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: front country is sort of grassland down below and more

390
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: developed and roaded and all those kinds of things. We

391
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: had a back and forth and committee. It was not

392
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: going well. It was pretty sort of head to head,

393
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 1: and I just took a step back and said, wait

394
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: a minute. You know, we're arguing about this in Washington,

395
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: d C. What might help is if you and I

396
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: go out there and we ride a couple of horses,

397
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: and we go into this country and look at it together,

398
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: and we can figure it out. Uh, and that was

399
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: kind of a turning point. The secretary ended up coming

400
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: out to New Mexico heard you know, there were lots

401
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: of enthusiastic sportsman at the for there for his visit

402
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: who were like, we are chomping at a bit, we'd

403
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: really like to see this place opened by Mulitier season. Um.

404
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: So after that he changed his position, said this is

405
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: a great conservation opportunity and accepted. We put together a

406
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: deal where you know, they made sure that you could

407
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 1: get motorized access to a parking area and that if

408
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: they had to get something into fight fires, you can

409
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: do that under the Wilderness Act and uh, and they

410
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: ended up accepting the gift. And it's you know, there

411
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: are some very enthusiastic sportsman in New Mexico of enjoyed

412
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: their access to the Sabino so as a result, so

413
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: now with the easement and the actual wilderness area, you

414
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: can add twenty thousand acres are people camp, uh, bird

415
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: watch whatever whatever you like to do. You know, you

416
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: couldn't do it on your land up until that moment.

417
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: And it's a special place. It's there's some permanent water

418
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: in there, which in New Mexico you you pour three

419
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: gallons of water on the ground, if it doesn't soak away,

420
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: you're gonna have wildlife, right, You're gonna have ducks in

421
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 1: places you'd never think to have ducks. When we were

422
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: in there, there was a big flock of turkeys. Um.

423
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's mule deer that use that area.

424
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: They're a handful of barbary sheep I think still in

425
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: the area. I mean, they're not native, but they're also

426
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: not They're exotic more than they are invasive. So they

427
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 1: are definitely sort of on the game menu in New Mexico.

428
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: Some people have, I think, particularly in the east or

429
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: wetter areas, have a hard time picture in that thirst

430
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: for water. And you're honest. You know, the guys used

431
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: to he used to guide elk counters with. They would

432
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: sometimes take a water jug. This is down Arizona and Arizona. Yeah,

433
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: they would dump a water jug. Uh yeah, we got

434
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: it there in south of the rim to Um. But

435
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: I think this was when this story takes place, was

436
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: unit nine. But uh yeah, the Fellows just driving down

437
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: a dirt road and was just like crossing kind of

438
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: a wet, muddy spot that might have had water in

439
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: a few days earlier and noticed that possibly an l

440
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: could rolled in there, and so he just happened. Everybody's

441
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: packing around whatever, fifty gallons of water in the back

442
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: of their truck, right, so he dumped out like whatever

443
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: five ten gallons and basically created a wallow, stuck a

444
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: trail camp up in the tree branch above. It. Came

445
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: back two days later and there's all kinds of l hitting.

446
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: It just smelled that little bit, right, You get that

447
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: dirt wet and they can smell it a long way away.

448
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing, like how dry some of the

449
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: places are. Can I feel like that that the story

450
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: we just talked about leads into uh, the Hunt Act. Yeah, absolutely,

451
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: you talked about that a little bit, and this was

452
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, Savyosa was really the impetus for the Hunt act. Um.

453
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: I was concerned that there are places, uh in this

454
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: country now and I've seen this, you know, ran Ne

455
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: Newburgh has done some great episodes where he's had to

456
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: take a helicopter and airplane in the you know, hunt

457
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: on public land in Montana, right. We have this in

458
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: New Mexico with Savino. So so so some other places like

459
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: the Alamo wacos that were completely land locked. And I

460
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: realized that the agencies especially want to interrupting montecles people understand, uh,

461
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: when we talk about landlocked, just just anytime into it,

462
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: because I just want to make sure people understand what

463
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: we're talking abou we're talking about landlocked. So you think

464
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: about you gotta you've got a little tiny mountain chain

465
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: in the middle desert that comes up off the desert floor,

466
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: and that mountain chain is public land, it's Bureau of

467
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: Land Management land, but uh, it is surrounded by private land.

468
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: And there is no road or trail that has a

469
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: legal eastment that actually gets into it. So that's your land.

470
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: And um, you know, if you could get there, you

471
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: could do all kinds of things on it, but you can't.

472
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: You can't legally get into it. And I started to

473
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: realize that this was not a one off. It was

474
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: not that there are millions of acres spread across the

475
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: West who can't that that are you know, our public

476
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: birthright that we can't use? And how can we change that?

477
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: And so I wrote a bill to make the agency's

478
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: do a review and figure out, like where are these places?

479
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 1: How much do we have? And start to prioritize and

480
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: do something about it. So let's spend some of those

481
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: Land and Water Conservation Fund dollars on purely on being

482
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: able to get the easements to be able to get

483
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: in and utilize those places again. And for me, that's access. Now.

484
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: For for Chairman Bishop, I think it means being able

485
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: to drive anywhere. And that's a problem if you like

486
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: to hunt big elk, because elk don't like to live

487
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: on a road. You know my experiences. If you want

488
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: the big, gnarly old bull elk, you know, you look

489
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: for the blank spot on the map, not the place

490
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: with lots of motorized access. Yeah, there are the exceptions,

491
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna bring this up to play Devil's

492
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: advocate a little bit. But where we just were talking

493
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: about in Arizona, Unit nine, it's a very routed up place.

494
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: It's also very heavily managed for you know, trophy potential

495
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: elk zone And it takes how many years? Yeah, they

496
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: were they were guiding hunters who's been waiting, buying preference

497
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: points every year, years of preference points. Yeah. So, and

498
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: God bless us hunters for you know, putting all that.

499
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: You know that that costs a lot of money over

500
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: time and that gets plowed back into habitats. So that's

501
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: that's that's a great thing. But for me, UM, I

502
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 1: do understand what you mean about the conversation, and we

503
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: spoke with Chairman Bishop about this. Uh is people, I

504
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: think sportsmen hear the word access and it just has

505
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: very everyone agrees like, no one would agree that we

506
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: No one would say like there should be less access.

507
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: Everyone's like, yes, I agree with more access. But I

508
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: think that people take the idea that that that that

509
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: the idea of access is popular and enjoys widespread support,

510
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: and then you can kind of take what your particular

511
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: vision is and make it seem like access. So if

512
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: your particular vision is is UM increasing vehicular access and

513
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: opening up more stuff for h v use UM, and

514
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: you build that as as a definition of access, do

515
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: you find that you're gonna like pick up some support

516
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: that maybe coming from people who if they knew the

517
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: details of what your vision was, their enthusiasms were damp

518
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: in a little bit if they knew that you wanted

519
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: to turn it into a quad runner race way right,

520
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: or access for mineral development or something else that's going

521
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: to impact that habitat long term. Yeah, so I've now

522
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: become when I hear in certain quarters, when I hear

523
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: or like increase access, I found myself saying, well, okay,

524
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: what kind of access we tombolaks? When I think it access,

525
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: I don't think about opening up places that were previously

526
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: literally not accessible. Exactly right. That's what the Hunt Act

527
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: was was written to do. And um, it's it was.

528
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: It's been popular enough that we've been able to get

529
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: it into the Sportsman's Package, which is something we've negotiated

530
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: sort of with both um Lisa Murkowski, Senator from Alaska.

531
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: So you guys have done it work on a handful

532
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: projects that work well together. Um, you know, we have

533
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: our differences, but man, she's a pro, and we've put

534
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: a sportsman's package together that is very bipartisan. And that's

535
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: just one of the pieces in it. Um, what will

536
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: happen there with something like that, Like how do you

537
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: picture something like that? Like how is it received? How

538
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: do you get it where it gets the proper attention

539
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: that it doesn't get drowned out by all the other

540
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: things you have to deal with, Like do you have

541
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: to kind of have a calendar reminder the constant Twitter. Yeah,

542
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: dynamic do you have to have a daily calendar reminder

543
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: that tells you what it was you were wanting to

544
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: do in the first place? As you as you kind

545
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: of sometimes I wonder about that. There is a dynamic

546
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: in this town of you have to be paying attention

547
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: to so many different issues that your attention spans becomes

548
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: a very short term attention span. And for me, Um,

549
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: I you know, if I had my brothers, I would

550
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: love to do this job from Taos, New Mexico or

551
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: Albuquerque here, you know, someplace at home where I was

552
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: is more my natural habitat and that feeds my soul

553
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: on a daily basis. Uh So it is. It is

554
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: focusing on these things long term, which uh you know,

555
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: gives me sort of long term vision and cuts through

556
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: the constant social media and television media circus around here.

557
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: But that's that's it's probably my personal passion for these

558
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: things that allows me to keep that thread going um

559
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: when it would be very easy for it to get

560
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: lost in the clutter. And for another member who doesn't

561
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: have that personal connection, it probably does get lost in

562
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: the clutter. I mean it has to only and I'm

563
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: saying that only because it's not like you're saying, like,

564
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: if you're watching the news cycle, you're not I don't

565
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: use I don't use mainstream news cycle in a derogatory way.

566
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: But when you're watching sort of the national news cycle,

567
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: you're just not being bombarded by conservation stories. That's exactly right.

568
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: So it's almost like you, I imagine, politically, you could

569
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: run the risk of seeing like sort of a fringe

570
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: person or a person who's like wondering and thinking about

571
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: things that are maybe kind of long term or kind

572
00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: of like, uh, you know, maybe provincial or something. I mean,

573
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: do you ever get that sense when when you're speaking

574
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: about conservation on the national level that people that that

575
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: that that colleagues or other people in the political sphere

576
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: would feel like it was like a fringe issue or

577
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: not a Yeah, no, I I get what you're saying now, Yeah,

578
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: that it's that you're saying, I want to I want

579
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: to open up access to federal lands. People like what

580
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: you want to? What you know, it's funny and it's like,

581
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: if you just talk about sportsmen and their impact on

582
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: conservation and wildlife habitat, we are not a huge percentage

583
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: of the population anymore, right, so I'm sure there are

584
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: members who who look at it that way, but I

585
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: also think it's a it's a way to connect with

586
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: people that you're not necessarily politically aligned with on a

587
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: whole series of other issues. Um, you get two members

588
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: of Congress and a duck blind, they'll actually talk to

589
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: each other and learn about each other. So you know,

590
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: there there are huge advan manages to it as well,

591
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: and there there is a desire among a lot of

592
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: members to still keep this as bipartisan as we possibly can,

593
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: which is a hard thing to do in a very

594
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: divided country these days. Speaking about divisions. Can can you

595
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on

596
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: public land divestor public land seizure? Yeah? You bet? Like

597
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: what what that what that movement looks like? You know

598
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: that whether it is a movement, it's not a I

599
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: don't think it's a legitimate movement. It's not a grassroot.

600
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: What worries me about the current dynamic is that it's

601
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: not that it's got a lot of money behind it,

602
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: and and we've seen that in the last few years,

603
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: and you can't really try it's so easy to have

604
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: dark money in politics now that it's very hard to

605
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: see who is financing what. But you know, you look

606
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: back at earlier iterations of the quote unquote stage brush

607
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: rebellion and other efforts to say a you know, let's

608
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: either give these public lands to the states or let's

609
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: sell them off for what's you know, which you're basically

610
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: two speeds of doing the same thing. Because most Western

611
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: states have sold off huge amounts of their state land.

612
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: We have millions of acres in New Mexico that used

613
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: to be open to the public that is not today

614
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: because a land commissioner chose to sell them off at

615
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, some states have sold off. Well, many

616
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: states have sold off the majority of the state lands

617
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: they originally and so you can go back to those

618
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: places now and see no trespassing sign. I think it's

619
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: worth noting that like in New Mexico, you can't camp

620
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: on state land, so there are at all there. They

621
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: have now made a few little places where you can

622
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: camp designated areas. But if you have a place like

623
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: the Louetta Mountains that are really remote where you would

624
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: have to go in and backpack in and and bivvy

625
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: out to be able to hunt effectively in the middle

626
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 1: of that range, um, you can't do that because you

627
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: you have to ask the permit tea whether you can

628
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 1: do that. A few years ago, I think the permit

629
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: tea was from Texas maybe UM. Like just functionally, you're

630
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: you're never going to be able to hunt most of

631
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: that because it's so hard and you can't just camp

632
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: in those areas. So that's a very different experience than

633
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management land BLM land or for service

634
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: land UM. So I think it's a beautiful thing to

635
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: have that land that the federal government manages, but the

636
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: public owns that the public can go and fight over

637
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: how it should be managed and fight for it and

638
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: camp on it and and hunting fish on it. UM.

639
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: And what worries me about this movement is that it

640
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: seems to be better funded than in the past. And

641
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: you see the American Lands Council, and you see groups

642
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: like ALEC that have huge corporate funders that are not

643
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: always transfer usually not transparent, aren't and if they're involved,

644
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: then you know you have to take it seriously. And

645
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: and to their credit, I think the sportsman community has

646
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: gotten much more serious about UM meeting this challenge in

647
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: the last five years. When you say that the funding seems,

648
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: the money available seems outside of the public sentiment. Do

649
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: you mean that that they the groups will still that

650
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: that have money, will still try to have their like

651
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: their goals sort of masquerade as a grassroots exactly. AstroTurf

652
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: is one way to put it, right, AstroTurf like than

653
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: so you can look at it and say that there's

654
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: there's money coming from somewhere that's not particularly clear, and

655
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: and it's pretty clear it's not coming in you know,

656
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: member checks of some little local group that must be tough. Sorry, um,

657
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: because they have sounds like they have more money now

658
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: and the federal government has less money to manage that.

659
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: And that's like a constant. Uh. Well, that's something that

660
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: really bothers me, is that this dynamic of starving the

661
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: federal land management agencies of any sort of budget to

662
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: be able to manage lands and then condemning them for

663
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: not managing those lands and saying we have to we

664
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: have to give them to someone else. I mean, that

665
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: dynamic I think is just dark. Yeah, it's been a

666
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: lot of dwelling on that issue. And and if if

667
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: you're serious about them doing a better job, we need

668
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: to fund them to do that we need to fund

669
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: law enforcement for those agencies to be able to make

670
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: sure that those places are are secure. Um. And we

671
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: need to be able to fund the thinning projects, the

672
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: habitat management, all the other things that a good land

673
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: manager can do. Yeah. And I think too that they've

674
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: recently taken some steps right to sort of address the

675
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: fire the wildfire issue, which is huge progress, I will say.

676
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: You know, so you're feeling optimistic about that. That was

677
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: you know a lot of us who were engaged in

678
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: that have been working on it for six seven years UM.

679
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: And it was truly bipartisan. You had people like Ron

680
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: Wyden of Oregon and Mike Crapo of Idaho working together. UM.

681
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: Having that fixed in the recently passed on the Best

682
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: Spending Bill is a huge step forward because what we

683
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: were doing is not managing our forests effectively and spending

684
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: all the money we should have been doing on forest

685
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: restoration and uh UM stewardship contracts. It was all getting

686
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: sucked into the fire budget, and so we were never

687
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: able to get ahead of those fires and create the

688
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: kind of forest that's more resilient where it can burn.

689
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: You know, Ponderosa Pine is supposed to burn every five

690
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: ten years. That's its fire cycle. Um, but you don't

691
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: want it so overstocked that when that fire happens, you

692
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: lose cent of your trees and you can't get ahead

693
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: of that without fixing the fire borrowing that was going on.

694
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: And the entire budget of the forest surface was just

695
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: getting swallowed by fighting fires. Yeah, and then not having

696
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 1: any funds to do anything proactive to prevent future exactly

697
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: catastrophic fires. And where we've you know, we have seen

698
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: these stewardship contracts. I've done a lot of work with

699
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: Jeff Flake of Arizona on four service stewardship contracts that

700
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: sort of combine habitat management with small scale timber management,

701
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: all together with travel. And at the end of these projects,

702
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: you have something that's good for Turkey habitat, you have

703
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: something that's good for Elk habitat, you have something that

704
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: is providing uh jobs at the local level, and uh,

705
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: you know those we should be putting money into those

706
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: kinds of projects, but it was all getting sucked into

707
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: the fire budget for years. You mentioned Jeff Flake, what's

708
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: been your experience when you sort, you know, as people say,

709
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: working across the aisle right, Like, what's been your experience

710
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 1: on conservation issues you worked with Lisa Murkowski. You gotta

711
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: find you gotta find people you can trust. Trust is

712
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: bigger than anything else. And you know, Jeff and I

713
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: did that crazy reality TV show a few years ago

714
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: where they dropped us off in the South Pacific together, uh,

715
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: and we proved that you know, when when death is

716
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: the alternative. Republicans and Democrats work together. But because of

717
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: that experience of spending a week together, we trust each other.

718
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: So we're worlds apart politically on a lot of issues,

719
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: but we can pick up the phone and figure out

720
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: very quickly if if a particular project is something we

721
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: want to work on together, and if we're gonna work

722
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: on it, neither one of us is trying to pull

723
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: a political fast one on the other. So you gotta

724
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: That's that's what trust is. Yeah, you gotta find people

725
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: you can trust and then figure out where the overlap

726
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: is where you agree and and just go all in

727
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: and are you able to have candid conversations about that

728
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You can only have candid conversations if

729
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: you have trust. And so much of the breakdown around

730
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: here is that people don't know their colleagues. Well, they

731
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: don't spend enough time with their colleagues. Um. You know,

732
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: Jeff and I really tried to get the two sides

733
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 1: to start having bipartisan lunches. We forced the issue enough

734
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: that it happened for a while, and then you know,

735
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: people fall back into their old ways of all the

736
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Democrats meet for a lunch and all the Republicans meet

737
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 1: for a lunch. Um. So if you're dedicated to those ideas,

738
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: you can you can find space and and push forward, uh,

739
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 1: and get some things done. And that's that's what keeps

740
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: me going. As challenging as it is to get things

741
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: done around here. I had a conservation bill, uh called

742
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 1: flip foots, the Federal Land Transaction Facilitation Act. It's a mouthful,

743
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: but being a real public and working on that for

744
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: ten years and we got it done this year. You know. So, Uh,

745
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: you have to be patient, you have to be dogged.

746
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 1: And it's one of those places where even Chairman Bishop

747
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: and I agree, and so you know, I needed people

748
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: on the House side who would push for that. Yeah. Uh,

749
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: tell me about stream access sort of your your vision

750
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: on it. In a handful of examples where it's being

751
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: discussed and hashed out, and well, I think we've seen

752
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: a lot of changes in New Mexico over the years

753
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: on stream access, and I think it is not something

754
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: that you've seen groups like background country hunters and anglersh

755
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: really step up on that issue. We've seen some great

756
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: leadership at the local level in New Mexico with the

757
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: New Mexico Wildlife Federation, but it is it is not

758
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: sort of created the national concert conservation uh conversation that

759
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: we've seen around some other hot button issues. And I

760
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: would love to see more of that because I think

761
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: we are losing stream access at a faster rate then

762
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: we're losing access to public lands. I want to I

763
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: want to just step in real quick and bring people

764
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: up to up to speed. I just a you can

765
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: add that Suppoially want to give people a general understanding

766
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about stream access. UM.

767
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: If you've ever gone put a canoe or raft or

768
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: inner tube into a river and floated down a stream

769
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: or river and on either bank is private land, Uh,

770
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: you're doing something. You're you're utilizing your state's stream access laws.

771
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: It's it's what allows you to be on a river

772
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: when it allows you to publicly access a river when

773
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: the banks of the river are privately owned. And you know,

774
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: of course these you know, large main stem rivers in

775
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: America are are not contested. Like, no, when you're floating

776
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: down the Mississippi, no landowners gonna come out and yell

777
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: at you that you're on their property. But as streams

778
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: and rivers get smaller and smaller, they enter into these

779
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: contested areas. Being that a mad that there's a drainage

780
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: ditch flowing through someone's egg field. You're not gonna be

781
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: able to walk up that drainage ditch and say, well,

782
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm in the water, I'm not in your land. And

783
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: so the battle gets fought over what constitutes a public stream. Um.

784
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: Some states have clarified it using great, very precise language. Um,

785
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: if it was used for commerce, if it has a

786
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: historic record of being used for commerce, it's a publicly

787
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: accessible stream. So if you can go back on the

788
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: historic record, and states will do this, and they'll find

789
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: that a guy floated a load of logs down the

790
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: river in eighteen twenty two, a mill or or ferry

791
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: to bushel of wheat down that thing that was open

792
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,479
Speaker 1: for commerce. It was historically used for commerce. It's open

793
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: for commerce and transport today. Another issue on stream access

794
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: would be um that where if let's say there's a

795
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: drought in the river level goes down, um in your

796
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: walking on land that is generally covered by water, but

797
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: it's not covered by Now are you legal so that

798
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: you could be in an area where you have to

799
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: be in the water. You could be in an area

800
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: in Wyoming, right, or is it Colorado where you can

801
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 1: be in a boat on a river but you can't

802
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: set an anchor and you can't get out of your

803
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: boat because because the bottom you know, both both those

804
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: states are like that. Yeah, So there they say, and

805
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 1: this is where it gets like confusing, as they'll say, Oh,

806
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: the water is public, but if you put your foot

807
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: out and hit the gravel on the bottom of the river,

808
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: you're trespassing. So there's all these you know, there's all

809
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: of these different variations on that you can be anywhere

810
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: below the high water mark that um that you can

811
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: be you can only be in areas that are above

812
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: mean stream flow or average flow. And it tends to

813
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: me a state issue, and that that's the legal fabric,

814
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: but there's also a historical fabric of it used to

815
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: be that if you were respectful of private land, there

816
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: are lot of streams that you could just weigh up

817
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: in New Mexico that had historic access acts. Waters access

818
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: is actually written into our state's constitution. And yet we

819
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: had a bill passed UH largely driven, I believe by

820
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 1: out of state interests who want to be able to

821
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: come in and buy their chunk of the Chama River,

822
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: their chunk of the Los Pinos River, their chunk of

823
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: the Pacos River, and be able to control that in

824
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: its entirety. And right, and then here comes some joe

825
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: blow wander and by fishing. Right, Yeah, and you're like, what,

826
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: so that that tension has is very real. Today the

827
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: balance has shifted, and I think there's going to be

828
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: a showdown eventually in the courts over which one of

829
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: whether that law is even constitutional given uh New Mexico's history. So,

830
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: so can you explain kind of can you give me

831
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: a little more detail about like what's being debated or

832
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: what's at stake in New Mexico? Is it is it

833
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: that new things might open up, or things that are

834
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: open now might become Things that have been historically open

835
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: are more and more closed. So we're seeing just less

836
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: access to some of these rivers, and what would the

837
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: showdown look like. I think it'll I think it will

838
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: end up in court. We're but we're also seeing a

839
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: lot of political spending by the same folks who are

840
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: buying up those those trophy properties and saying I want

841
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: to be able to have guided clients come in and

842
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,919
Speaker 1: and fish my stretch of river, right and I don't

843
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: want them to see other anglers. UM. They are putting

844
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: a lot of money into the political system, and I

845
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: think that's why part of why you saw a law

846
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: passed in a in a state that historically UM has

847
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: been more on the access side of the equation. Is

848
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: there any area in federal where where federal politics influence

849
00:49:53,560 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: stream access? I think largely just in being able to

850
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: utilize UM things like the Land and Water Conservation Fund

851
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: legislation like the Hunt Act to be able to UH

852
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,479
Speaker 1: to secure new access points to make sure those things

853
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: can't happen river access points UM, and you know, and

854
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: spending UM those federal gaming fish dollars too, and the

855
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: recreation dollars on things like boat ramps and other things

856
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: that can sort of formalize that in partnership with local

857
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: Game and Fish. I was very surprised to hear not

858
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: long ago that every county in the United States has

859
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 1: utilized land and water conservation funds. Not amazing. I mean,

860
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: this is a program that is created open up so

861
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: much quality habitat in the West, but it's also created

862
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: thousands of soccer field And think like that little park

863
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: that you know, that neighborhood that didn't have a park

864
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: suddenly has a neighborhood park. Well, that's a huge quality

865
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: of life issue for some You know, if you have

866
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,919
Speaker 1: kids plan in a park, they're going to be healthier. Yeah,

867
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: that's the thing that like, until you have little kids,

868
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 1: you could give a ship less and then like all

869
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you find yourself living in a neighborhood

870
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: that the parks either a half a block or ten

871
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 1: blocks away, and you realize, yeah, it's a game changer

872
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: because you're there all the time for the next five

873
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: years of your life. Having children definitely opened me up

874
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: to the to that idea, an awareness of green space

875
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: and parks because you know, as a grown up with

876
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 1: no kids just jumping and d but when you're dealing

877
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: with this, like people need to take naps and have

878
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: snacks all the time. You start like, you start becoming

879
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: very aware of sort of like immediately available places to

880
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 1: get your kids outside. Absolutely, because they think from their perspective,

881
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 1: they are on the wilderness, you know, when you're two

882
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 1: ft tall. Absolutely, and and that's a that's a kids

883
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: are healthier when they're when they're exposed to that, whether

884
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 1: it's a neighborhood park. Uh. And then maybe the neighborhood

885
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: park leads to other things. And we created, ah, we're

886
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: in the process of creating an urban wildlife refuge in

887
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: very close to downtown Albuquerque. It's out of town, but

888
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: it's in an area where there's lots of resident residential

889
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: property as well along the Rio Grand where you know,

890
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: fourth graders can come and learn about about nature and

891
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: about ripe parian areas and about wildlife and about flyways

892
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: and um. You know, I've been working with Lamar Alexander

893
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: on taking that every Kid in the Park thing that

894
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 1: the Obama administration did for fourth graders, where they said

895
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 1: you can come and and you can get free access

896
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: as a fourth grader to any of your public lands

897
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: or any of your national parks. And we're trying to

898
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: formalize that for all public lands, realizing that all out

899
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: of these families have never actually, you know, in Albuquerque,

900
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: have never maybe been to the top of the Sandy

901
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: As just a few miles away. And there's a story

902
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: like that in every state, in every county around the

903
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: around the country. And our kids are so plugged into

904
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: these devices that we have got to find ways to

905
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 1: um get them in touch with reality. Yeah, I've heard

906
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: you mentioned a couple of times to talk about the

907
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: We can't expect people to get invested in conservation and

908
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 1: wildlife habitat if they just don't even know what those

909
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: things mean, or that they don't know that the treasures

910
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: that are out there for them to utilize, like they're

911
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: not gonna care about preserving them. It's fantastic that you

912
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: can you can turn on PBS or watch BBC Nature

913
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: and see amazing things. But nothing gets people more in

914
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: gauge than than personal experience. And that's why I mean,

915
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: we've got these hundreds of millions of acres of public land.

916
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: We need to make sure that people know it's theirs

917
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: and are are out using it. That will create a

918
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,959
Speaker 1: whole new generation conservationists. What do you think is gonna

919
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: happen with the Land and Water Conservation fonly what needs

920
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: to happen. What do you think will happen? Well, it

921
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: expires again in the authorization for it expires at the

922
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: in September of this year. Why is it always expiring?

923
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: Why is it? Is it or is it just my

924
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: perception of it that it's always like imperiled somehow? Now

925
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: you're right, because there are many of us who have

926
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: tried tried to say, this is such a successful program.

927
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: It's actually the poster child of a federal program that works.

928
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: So let's just extend it in perpetuity, because we always

929
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: extend it. Right at the end of the day, people

930
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: love this program for some period of time people, but

931
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: there has been for those people who want to change

932
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: that program, change its direction, move it away from habitat

933
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 1: and public lands. And and say, you know, you were

934
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: talking with German bishop, and I think he represented that

935
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: not much of this goes to the states. Well about

936
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: half of it goes to state side. Um, it is

937
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: a good balance right now of state and federal priorities

938
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: and of urban and rural Uh. And I think we

939
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: just need to extend it to a permanent reauthorization rather

940
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: than try and say, oh, this this program, this is

941
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 1: what we're going to use to fix the infrastructure problem

942
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: that we have, uh for all of these agencies. That's

943
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: not why Land and Water was created. It was to

944
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 1: say we were going to have a balance. We we

945
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: lease offshore oil revenues and some of that should go

946
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: into habitat and balancing that out. And it's worked amazingly well.

947
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: I mean I talked about the virus Caldera that that

948
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: we've is a national preserve in New Mexico that all

949
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: of us used to drive on this one little highway

950
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: through and look out and just salivate at what it's

951
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: New Mexico's Yellowstone. It's this high, uh high elevation, meadows,

952
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: reverse tree line, surrounded by volcanic peaks, covered in timber,

953
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: huge herd of elk, and none of us. Thirty years

954
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: ago it was private property. You know. You everybody dreamed

955
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: about being able to ski in there or hunt in there,

956
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: or fish in there, and today we can't because of

957
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: the Land and Water Conservation fund UM. And that's what

958
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: it was created for. So that's what we should do

959
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: with it. We should extend it in perpetuity. And we

960
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: should figure out what the right dollar amount is and

961
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: make that permanent as well. Do you think that that

962
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: will happen? I think it will be extended. Uh. I

963
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: think whether or not it gets extended in perpetuity will

964
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: kind of depend on who the chairman and are in

965
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: the relevant committees. UM. I don't think it would happen

966
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 1: to a chairman, bishop and in charge. No, he's pretty

967
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: skeptical program. Absolutely, And you know this idea that the

968
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 1: thing that bothers me too is this idea that people

969
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: are somehow out there making a living off the Land

970
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: and Water Conservation Fund. That there are special interests. I'm

971
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: using air quotes right now for our listeners that are

972
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: uh spun up using this program for their own devices.

973
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: For these special interests, the Rocky Mountain ELK Foundation. I

974
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: mean when you look at the projects in your state,

975
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: I mean these are I don't consider Rocky Mountain ELK

976
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: to be a special interest. Um. There are there are

977
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: these groups that that do this work, which is hard

978
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: where you're interfacing with a a private landowner who maybe

979
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: has an in holding in some really important habitat and

980
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: you're able to use Land and Water Conservation Fund moneys

981
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: to secure an easement or fee simple acquisition of that

982
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: to protect an elk herd's wintering range or their calving grounds.

983
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: That's not special interest anything. That's that's that's a good conservation. Yeah, yeah, Chairman,

984
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: we didn't have time to get into it into the

985
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: details this but but you don't even need to respond

986
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: to this. But UM Chairman Rob Bishop had explained or

987
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: his view was that people, specially interests, will by land

988
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: UM and then turn profits by then getting it absorbed

989
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: through Land and Water Conservation Fund moneys. All I can

990
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: say from New Mexico's perspective is that that's not been

991
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: our perspective and that's not been our experience, and that's

992
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: why we have appraisals, right like you should. You have

993
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,919
Speaker 1: to have guardrails on any program, and we do UM.

994
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: You know, land gets appraised and you figure out what

995
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: the actual value is. We have this place, this place

996
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: called Ute Mountain that's in Rio Grande del Norte National Monument,

997
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: that used to be private land and it's it is

998
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: now not only in the public hands, but it's one

999
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: of the most important chunks of habitat up there and

1000
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: in an area that is absolutely critical for herds of

1001
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: Elka mule dear that we share with Colorado. UM, and

1002
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: you just couldn't. We could have never done that project

1003
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: without the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and nobody made

1004
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: money off of it. Do you have You've been very

1005
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: generous with your time. Do you have time for one more? Yeah?

1006
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: I do. Can you can you talk a little bit

1007
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: about your perspective on the Antiquities Act, particularly with how

1008
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: it's related to some of the debates, the national debates

1009
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: you've been having about monuments. You bet. Uh. New Mexico

1010
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: has a long history with anti antiquities because we have

1011
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: this historical figure I think his name is egger Lee

1012
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: Hewitt who UM was sort of in the ear of

1013
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: Congressman Lacey who drafted it and exactly right, Yeah, as

1014
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: Congressman Lacey of Iowa as well as UM you know

1015
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: President Roosevelt, and he was really interested in protecting some

1016
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: areas in New Mexico that now you would think of

1017
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: as Bandalia National Monument and Chaco Canyon. Uh. And he

1018
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: helped draft the the Antiquities Act. And I think some

1019
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: of the misinformation you hear as things like, oh, this

1020
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: was only designed to protect a postage stamp around a

1021
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: particular archaeological site. Well, I think the first thing out

1022
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 1: of the gate that it was used for was Devil's Tower,

1023
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,919
Speaker 1: which is not a postage stamp and not it has

1024
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: huge cultural significance, but as a large UH geologic feature,

1025
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: and it has language written right into it that says

1026
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: scientific features can be protected with this. T R used

1027
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: it to protect Roosevelt Elk as an object under the

1028
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: Antiquities Act when he created the Mount Olympus National Monument.

1029
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: So there's this long history that that right out of

1030
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: the gate by the people who created and and signed

1031
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: this in the law counters the language you hear today

1032
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: that is really more about catering to specific vested UH

1033
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: financial interests. And you see that embarrass ears um. You

1034
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: know Congressman Bishop was very much against the two monuments

1035
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. Well, if he had gone and done

1036
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: a public hearing the way that Secretary Salazar did, he'd

1037
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: know that in Tao, it's not a not a single

1038
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: person stood up and opposed the creation of that monument.

1039
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: You think about anything you could find today where you

1040
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: actually have unanimity of thought that is unheard of in

1041
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: our political context and yet it existed there, and to

1042
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 1: have to fight for this stuff that really grew out

1043
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: of the grassroots community level, that was supported by mayors

1044
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: and city councilors and and land grant heirs and hunters

1045
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: and fishermen and and guides and like it bothers me

1046
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: that that is under attack when we have these incredible

1047
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: examples of why it's so important and this personally, I

1048
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: used to guide up in what is today Bear series.

1049
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: I used to run a outdoor education uh nonprofit called

1050
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 1: Cotton with Gulch Expeditions, and I can tell you that country.

1051
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: There's a reason why it's so important to the tribes,

1052
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: and I've represented a number of those tribes and they've

1053
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: been very explicit with me about that connection. But it's

1054
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: also a world class resource and an amazing place to hunt.

1055
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: I mean that the elk herd up there today. I

1056
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: was up there with my family a little over a

1057
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: year ago during spring break, and um, the deer, the turkey,

1058
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: the bear resource on Cedar masis absolutely incredible, and so

1059
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: we need to realize that those things come under threat

1060
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 1: when you unprotect a big swath of this as well.

1061
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: I think that that the argument you started out with

1062
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 1: is something that would be helpful, um like, as we

1063
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: engage with this and as you have to debate points

1064
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: of it, that idea like tackling it from the originalism perspective,

1065
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: because I think oftentimes people will take things like Land

1066
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,959
Speaker 1: and Water Conservation Fund, they'll take things like the Antiquities Act,

1067
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: and they'll people who are generally opposed to how those

1068
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: things are used will generally go back to, well, this

1069
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: is what it was supposed to do. Let's let's debate

1070
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: what it was supposed to do originally and sort of

1071
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: pull it out of its contemporary context, even though things

1072
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 1: like change all the time, and our and our needs

1073
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: changed and our desires change, right, and when we were

1074
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: always like kind of trying to interpret old pieces of

1075
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,439
Speaker 1: legislation or older ideas and interpret like, what is the

1076
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: meaning of it? How can we apply it to today?

1077
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: But it's really interesting that you brought up those points

1078
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 1: about that you're comfortable talking about original the Antiquities Act

1079
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: because you don't think that it's you don't think that's

1080
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: inconsistent with our state was right at the heart of that.

1081
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: So and we've got these amazing examples of how it's

1082
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: been used over time, whether that's white sands or bandalier

1083
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: because the thing you here is like the landscape scale use.

1084
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 1: But it's interesting that some of those early places were

1085
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: in fact bigger than one little the Grand Canyon one

1086
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 1: little antiquity. Yeah, the Grand Canyon, like that was not

1087
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: one little antiquity. If you've ever seen a picture of it,

1088
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: or you've been at the bottom of the Grand Canyon,

1089
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that was one of the earliest

1090
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 1: use uses of the Antiquities Act. No one probably feels

1091
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: comfortable debating those, know. I think a big question that

1092
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: comes up a lot is like, what if you can't

1093
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: explain it quickly, what's the main difference between when something's

1094
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 1: protected by the Antiquities Act and let's just say if

1095
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: it's run by the BLM or if it's National forest.

1096
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: With the Antiquities Act, typically what happens is the President

1097
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 1: rights a proclamation, uh, and you can have you can

1098
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 1: have national monuments under any agencies designation. Right, So you

1099
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: can have a monument that is Park Service, that is

1100
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management, that is US Fish and Wildlife Service,

1101
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: that is Forced Service. There's a way to to sort

1102
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 1: of fit it to the agency. And we have for

1103
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: Service monuments. We have BLM monuments that are managed very

1104
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: differently than Park Service man monuments, especially especially with respect

1105
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: to hunting and fishing. Um, I'm sorry, Johnnie, what were saying.

1106
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: I don't know you were you were getting at it. Yeah,

1107
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 1: but just the like, the difference and how and how

1108
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: it's managed. Like from just the like or someone coming

1109
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: up to when we wrote the proclamation for the President

1110
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: to sign for the Oregon Mountains Desert Peaks National Monument

1111
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: in New Mexico or the Rio Grande del Norte National

1112
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: Monument UH in New Mexico, we wrote in to make

1113
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: sure that we protected those things, and you manage it

1114
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 1: in a certain way. You have a lot of control

1115
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: within the confines of that proclamation to say, here are

1116
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: the objects we are seeking to protect and and here's

1117
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: how we want you to now manage this. That is

1118
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: in contrast to full scale multiple use where anything goes

1119
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: and so you're gonna have areas where the dominant land

1120
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: use on BLM land is producing oil and gas. Um,

1121
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: there are places where the habitat values or the cultural

1122
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: values or what you're seeking to protect should trump that

1123
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: kind of intensive development. And that's what you can write

1124
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: into a proclamation and keep from happening. So typically you

1125
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: do not have a new open pit mine or oil

1126
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: and gas development, a new highway transmission lines being built

1127
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: on those monuments. UH protected it under the Antiquities Act.

1128
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: Got it, And all that sort of stuff could be

1129
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: a possibility under regular BLM happens the time people get

1130
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: the right lease and and sometimes even under current law

1131
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: you have pieces of public land which get spun off

1132
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: into private ownership through a planning process. So none of

1133
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: that can happen once a place is protected and reserved

1134
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: under the Antiquities Act. I think what you're getting as

1135
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: an important thing I think that hunters and anglers need

1136
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: to realize about monuments is not all monuments are created equal,

1137
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: and I think that people view them as a monument

1138
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: is a slippery slope to national park where the hunters

1139
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: and anglers aren't welcome, and it's really not the case.

1140
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: You really when when when we're talking about monuments, you

1141
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: have to look at each individual place and look at

1142
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: what the mandate is and the intent is. Because these

1143
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: like BLM monuments, there's not a conversation on these about

1144
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: and when you see like the Rio Grande del Norte

1145
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: National Monument has a big horn sheep hunt now that

1146
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: did not exist when it was just blm land. Uh.

1147
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:20,200
Speaker 1: The trophy big horns coming out of there. The buddy

1148
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: of mine's UH guide up in Taos fishing guide. He

1149
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: got a great bowl elk in the monument a couple

1150
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: of years ago. I've seen monster mule e's harvested in

1151
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: that in that monument. So because that community, that sportsman's

1152
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: community there in Taos County was in at the ground

1153
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: floor saying we want a monument, but we want it

1154
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: to be managed for wildlife and open to hunting and

1155
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 1: fishing and got it written and they got it. Yeah,

1156
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 1: do you have any I'm gonna leave it open ended

1157
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: for you to um add any kind of thoughts or

1158
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 1: anything you want to make sure people understand or whatever

1159
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: you want to do. UM. Once you feel like you

1160
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 1: just said it all, yeah, you know, I would just

1161
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: say this is this stuff may not get talked about

1162
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: on on CNN every night or pick your cable news show,

1163
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: but it's the stuff that makes America truly unique in

1164
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 1: the world. UM. So you know, if you're passionate about it,

1165
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 1: find uh, find like minded people and UH and make

1166
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: a difference for these things that we care about. Yes,

1167
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:42,480
Speaker 1: get final thoughts, um. I was just thinking about uh access,

1168
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: and I hope we have to have a conversation. It's

1169
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: probably might not be in our lifetimes. Maybe it will be,

1170
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: but where we do have so many users and so

1171
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: many lovers of all this stuff that we might actually

1172
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: have to talk about limiting it because you can love

1173
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: a place to death, you know, but that would be

1174
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: like a good comment, that would be good goal is

1175
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: that you know, so many people want to be in

1176
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 1: the mountains that we have to talk about, you know,

1177
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: drawing permits, which we have a little bit across there's

1178
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: places Smith River usually about just plenty of them. Three

1179
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: miles into a roadless area gets a little thinner. But

1180
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 1: come spend some time in New Mexico. We we don't

1181
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: have the crowded trails that other states have and it's

1182
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,960
Speaker 1: such an amazing I mean, to be able to go

1183
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: out and backpacking the HeLa. I did a fifty three

1184
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: mile backpack in the HeLa a few years ago and gosh,

1185
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 1: I ran into almost no one on that handful of people.

1186
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 1: People use the term campaign trail. Do you ever campaign

1187
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 1: on the trail? That's where I decided. That was where

1188
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: I decided to run for public office. Is the Heilo

1189
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: Wilderness on a backpack. So Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico,

1190
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us. Great to be here.