WEBVTT - The Alabama Murders - Part 1: The True Church 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:19.196 Pushkin Hello, hello Malcolm. 0:00:19.196 --> 0:00:19.436 Here. 0:00:19.796 --> 0:00:22.196 Before we get to the episode, I want to let 0:00:22.236 --> 0:00:25.796 you know you can get this entire season now ad 0:00:25.836 --> 0:00:30.396 free by subscribing to Revisionist History on Pushkin Plus, sign 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:32.916 up on the show page on Apple Podcasts, or at 0:00:32.916 --> 0:00:38.516 pushkin dot fm, slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access 0:00:38.556 --> 0:00:43.996 ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:48.396 for all Pushkin shows. A little while ago, a friend 0:00:48.436 --> 0:00:50.796 of mine told me, you have to meet this person 0:00:50.836 --> 0:00:55.476 I know, Cape Porterfield. She's got the strangest job in America. 0:00:56.356 --> 0:00:59.636 So I did. We got together Porterfield and I in 0:00:59.676 --> 0:01:02.876 a little conference room in Manhattan. I just want to 0:01:02.956 --> 0:01:07.596 understand how you ended up where you are. 0:01:08.156 --> 0:01:10.516 So you're kind of viewing us. We're just talking. You're 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:15.636 thinking about whether there's something here that will that'll evolve 0:01:15.636 --> 0:01:18.676 over time that you would imagine being putting in the podcast. 0:01:19.036 --> 0:01:19.836 Was that kind of everything? 0:01:19.956 --> 0:01:20.116 Yeah? 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:21.956 Yeah. 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:25.356 Porterfield is a psychologist. We talked for a few hours, 0:01:25.876 --> 0:01:30.236 then again and again, one conversation leading to another, until 0:01:30.276 --> 0:01:32.476 she began to talk about a case that had affected 0:01:32.476 --> 0:01:36.036 her deeply. Although she hasn't used the word case, she 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:39.076 says person a man on death row. 0:01:40.516 --> 0:01:43.836 When I first went to see Kenny, so now it 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:47.436 had been two months since the execution attempt. He wanted 0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:50.916 to talk for the first probably two hours of our 0:01:50.996 --> 0:01:56.036 visit about how beautiful his goodbyes were and the love 0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:58.716 he received from his family as he was going into 0:01:58.756 --> 0:02:01.916 the execution. That's what he wanted to start with. And 0:02:02.116 --> 0:02:06.556 I found this so powerful and also fascinating, honestly as 0:02:06.596 --> 0:02:12.476 a clinician, because what I first thought was, Oh, he's avoiding, right, 0:02:12.516 --> 0:02:15.636 he can't talk about the execution. He talked to me 0:02:15.676 --> 0:02:18.356 about love for probably two two and a half hours, 0:02:18.756 --> 0:02:20.276 to the point where I had to say, you know, 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:23.036 this is incredible and I'm so happy you're sharing it, 0:02:23.076 --> 0:02:26.756 and I'm not surprised. I also though, I want to 0:02:26.796 --> 0:02:27.436 know what happened. 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:36.956 What happened was a botched execution punishment for a crime 0:02:36.956 --> 0:02:40.476 that took place over thirty years before, a river of 0:02:40.476 --> 0:02:44.716 blood that had already claimed the lives of three others. 0:02:45.956 --> 0:02:48.956 Kate Porderfield told me her version of events. Then I 0:02:48.996 --> 0:02:51.516 went out and got other people's versions of what happened, 0:02:51.756 --> 0:02:53.676 and that's where the story I'm about to tell you 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:57.076 comes from. I want to figure out why this case 0:02:57.116 --> 0:02:59.476 went on for as long as it did, why it 0:02:59.596 --> 0:03:02.556 took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:07.516 And the other question, maybe the more important question, is 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:10.396 why have we quitted a system that, in trying to 0:03:10.436 --> 0:03:14.116 respond to suffering all too often makes suffering worse. 0:03:15.276 --> 0:03:18.356 He made me really pause and think a lot, watching 0:03:18.396 --> 0:03:21.676 someone only start from a place of love after something 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:23.996 so horrible was I have never seen that before. 0:03:26.396 --> 0:03:30.596 Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 0:03:31.716 --> 0:03:35.916 This is a special seven episode series, The Alabama Murders, 0:03:40.236 --> 0:03:53.116 Episode one, The True Church. So we're now in Are 0:03:53.156 --> 0:03:54.156 we in Florence here? 0:03:54.596 --> 0:03:54.796 Yes? 0:03:55.916 --> 0:03:59.676 This story takes place in northwestern Alabama, in an area 0:03:59.716 --> 0:04:03.316 called the Shoals, the so called Alabama black Belt, the 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:06.556 broad flat swath of fertile farmland where the old Antebellum 0:04:06.596 --> 0:04:11.156 cotton plantations were established. Hours drive to the south. This 0:04:11.276 --> 0:04:15.876 is Rolling Hills, Appalachia, not the Mississippi Delta. Four towns 0:04:16.116 --> 0:04:20.676 on either side of the Tennessee River, Sheffield, Discumbia, Mussel Shoals, 0:04:20.676 --> 0:04:25.636 and Florence. Sheffield is working class, struggling Muscle Shoals is 0:04:25.676 --> 0:04:29.516 a spiritual home of rhythm and blues. Discumbia is famous 0:04:29.556 --> 0:04:33.716 for being the birthplace of Helen Keller. Florence is the largest, 0:04:34.116 --> 0:04:36.956 a graceful town of beautiful pre war buildings with a 0:04:37.036 --> 0:04:38.596 Frank Lloyd Wrighthouse downtown. 0:04:39.716 --> 0:04:42.596 You know, there's no interstate that runs through Florence, there's 0:04:42.676 --> 0:04:45.596 no major airport, so it's a little bit of a 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:47.436 closed society almost. 0:04:47.476 --> 0:04:48.676 It's really neat. 0:04:49.476 --> 0:04:52.356 I started going to Alabama after talking to Cape Porterfield, 0:04:52.796 --> 0:04:54.716 and on one of my first trips, I met a 0:04:54.756 --> 0:04:59.156 man named Grant Asbell, a preacher early forties, big beard 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:02.316 baseball cap, though not on Sunday morning. Of course. He 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:03.596 was my guide to Florence. 0:05:04.276 --> 0:05:06.956 You know, there's good music, there's good art, there's good food, 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:10.676 but you just don't happen here. You have to want 0:05:10.836 --> 0:05:12.676 to come to Florence. 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:16.596 This is the place where it all started with a 0:05:16.596 --> 0:05:20.316 personal transgression, a matter of the heart, by another preacher, 0:05:20.756 --> 0:05:21.996 a man named Charles Sennate. 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:26.756 I was only seven years old when it happened, but 0:05:26.876 --> 0:05:31.356 I remember it being really disconcerting because if you're in 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:34.156 this group and like it in this area in particular, 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:37.316 I mean, you've been to Florence, Florence, you don't get 0:05:37.316 --> 0:05:42.116 here by accident, and so the idea that someone within 0:05:42.316 --> 0:05:47.516 this framework could do something like Charles Sennett did was 0:05:47.636 --> 0:05:50.396 very disruptive. It was talked about kind of in hush tones. 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:52.956 I was talking to our local he goes to church 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:55.716 with us here. He's actually the historian for the city 0:05:55.756 --> 0:05:59.436 of Florence, and he was telling me that one of 0:05:59.476 --> 0:06:02.076 the preachers in one of the churches in town. While 0:06:02.076 --> 0:06:04.956 that was going on, got up in the poolpit and said, 0:06:05.916 --> 0:06:09.236 Charles Sennett is a faithful Christian brother. The things that 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:13.676 are being said about him are lies with the idea right. 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:17.516 He is a faithful Church of Christ member and almost 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:22.956 incapable of this kind of thing. 0:06:38.476 --> 0:06:41.556 In Alabama, the Shoals is the spiritual center of the 0:06:41.596 --> 0:06:45.116 Protestant denomination known as the Church of Christ. There are 0:06:45.276 --> 0:06:48.276 many many Church of Christ congregations within an hour's drive 0:06:48.316 --> 0:06:50.996 of Florence. And I don't think that any of the 0:06:51.036 --> 0:06:52.996 things we're going to explore over the course of this 0:06:53.076 --> 0:06:57.116 series will make sense unless you first understand something about 0:06:57.116 --> 0:07:01.436 this denomination. If I blindfolded you and put you in 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:04.756 an early nineteen eighties Church of Christ congregation, how long 0:07:04.796 --> 0:07:06.756 would it take you before you knew you were in 0:07:06.836 --> 0:07:07.436 Church of Christ. 0:07:09.156 --> 0:07:11.996 I would know in about three minutes or less. 0:07:12.956 --> 0:07:15.876 This is Lee camp who has taught theology for years 0:07:15.916 --> 0:07:19.116 at Lipscomb University in Nashville, one of the most prestigious 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:21.876 of the many universities around the United States affiliated with 0:07:21.956 --> 0:07:25.036 the Church of Christ. Would what would be the tip off? 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:28.996 Well, the singing would be acappella is the first thing, 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:31.476 and so you know, the only place you're going to 0:07:31.516 --> 0:07:32.996 find a cocapel singing is probably either going to be 0:07:33.036 --> 0:07:35.396 Mennonites or Church of Christ. It may be Church of 0:07:35.396 --> 0:07:38.636 the Brethren. And then there are going to be certain 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:42.316 phrases that are going to get said that would just 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:43.876 be a tip off that you know, this is what 0:07:44.916 --> 0:07:47.316 in the prayers are going to say, Lord, guard, guide 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:49.756 and direct us. I don't know, there just be language 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:51.396 like that that I would immediately know. 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:54.636 By the way, for those of you who know something 0:07:54.636 --> 0:07:59.916 about country music, what do willn Jennings, Roy Orbison, Loeurete Olinn, 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:04.196 Glenn Campbell, Dwight Yoakam, Pat Boon, Crystal Gale, I could 0:08:04.236 --> 0:08:07.556 go on, all have in common. They all came out 0:08:07.596 --> 0:08:09.836 of the a cappella tradition of the Church of Christ. 0:08:10.516 --> 0:08:13.076 It's not Sunday morning. I just take you to a church. 0:08:13.076 --> 0:08:15.476 It's empty. How long does it take you to know 0:08:15.516 --> 0:08:17.396 that you're in a Church of Christ. There's no one 0:08:17.396 --> 0:08:22.556 in there. You look around, what do you see? That's 0:08:22.556 --> 0:08:24.196 a tip of no organ? 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:28.516 There's no organ, and just the whole architecture is very, 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:37.076 very simple. There's lack of pretense. There's certainly no art 0:08:37.396 --> 0:08:41.436 on the walls. There's no stations for the cross. There's 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:45.236 pews and there are there's on the one side at 0:08:45.236 --> 0:08:48.636 the front is going to be a board that shows 0:08:49.036 --> 0:08:52.756 attendance contribution numbers. On the other side, it's going to 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:54.876 be a board that has the hymn numbers that you 0:08:54.956 --> 0:08:57.596 slide in with the numbers. And in the middle it's 0:08:57.596 --> 0:08:58.836 going to be a simple poolpit. 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:03.276 I know about the Church of Christ because my best 0:09:03.316 --> 0:09:08.276 friend is the screenwriter Charles Randolph, whose father Dale was 0:09:08.316 --> 0:09:11.636 a Church of Christ, who went to Lipscomb. And once 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:14.476 when I was visiting Lipscomb, the same school where Lee 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:16.916 Camp teaches, a little old lady came out to me 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:22.036 and said, are you Dale Randolph's famous son Chuck's friend. Yes, 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:25.116 I am. And while I'm playing this game, I should 0:09:25.116 --> 0:09:27.996 point out that halfway through my conversation with Grant asboll 0:09:28.276 --> 0:09:32.236 I discovered that he did his doctorate at Lipscomb with 0:09:32.396 --> 0:09:35.796 Lee Camp. The point is that the Church of Christ 0:09:36.036 --> 0:09:38.716 is a very small world. It's a family. 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:42.516 Now, you're from Alabama, I am from Alabama. You were 0:09:42.516 --> 0:09:48.876 born in Talladega, Telladega and not Talladega or Talladega, it's 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:51.316 Taladia Telladigga. 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:53.756 And you grew up in the Church of Christ. 0:09:54.076 --> 0:09:54.396 I did. 0:09:55.036 --> 0:09:59.556 When you say that you are that you belong to 0:09:59.636 --> 0:10:02.796 the Church of Christ, what are you saying about? What 0:10:02.836 --> 0:10:06.356 does that mean? How's that different from I'm a Baptist. 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:10.756 Well, it depends on who you're talking to and where 0:10:10.796 --> 0:10:15.036 they are in their experience of Churches of Christ. But 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:17.516 when someone says I'm a member of the Church of Christ, 0:10:18.836 --> 0:10:22.556 that means that they are members of the true Church 0:10:23.556 --> 0:10:27.756 that restored New Testament Christianity, and everybody else is wrong, 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:33.596 and that this is the true Church. That's not a denomination, 0:10:34.276 --> 0:10:37.116 that's not Protestant, it's not Catholic, it's just the true Church. 0:10:38.516 --> 0:10:42.356 In the taxonomy of Southern Protestantism, there are the Pentecostals, 0:10:42.596 --> 0:10:46.436 the singing, the swaying, speaking in tongues emotion. The Church 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:50.196 of Christ isn't that. Then there are the fundamentalists, the 0:10:50.236 --> 0:10:53.916 Southern Baptists, fire and Brimstone. The Church of Christ isn't 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:57.916 that either. The Baptists and the Pentecostals can sometimes go 0:10:57.956 --> 0:11:00.996 on all Sunday afternoon. In a Church of Christ, You're 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:04.756 out in an hour. These are the people of the book. 0:11:05.396 --> 0:11:07.236 There is said to be more advanced degrees in the 0:11:07.276 --> 0:11:10.556 Church of Christ's leadership than any of the Southern denominations. 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:15.876 There are a church of rules and certainties, simplicity and clarity, 0:11:16.356 --> 0:11:19.636 a church inspired by the idea that anyone who studies 0:11:19.636 --> 0:11:23.116 the Bible, reads it closely and thoughtfully, can discern the 0:11:23.156 --> 0:11:27.436 path to salvation. That's the good part, the beautiful part. 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:30.796 But the other part, and by the way, no one 0:11:30.836 --> 0:11:33.236 is more willing to acknowledge the limitations of the Church 0:11:33.276 --> 0:11:36.036 of Christ than people who belong to the Church of Christ, 0:11:36.636 --> 0:11:40.796 is that the rules, the certainty, the intimacy can become 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:42.076 a straight jacket. 0:11:44.116 --> 0:11:48.436 Like I love and hate Church to Christ. You know 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:58.676 I love them and I have hated them, and you 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:03.636 know I love them because I've spent my life doing 0:12:03.676 --> 0:12:05.876 what I've done with my life because of what I 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:07.836 learned in my church. You know, I was loved by 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:17.516 my church, loved by the people in that church. And 0:12:17.596 --> 0:12:21.156 yet at the same time that the traditions in the 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:23.476 latter part of the twentieth century have done a lot 0:12:23.516 --> 0:12:26.276 of damage to a lot of people, including me. There's 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:31.116 a sense of fear, and there's there's always the danger 0:12:31.156 --> 0:12:38.956 that you'll be kind of cut off, and so that 0:12:38.996 --> 0:12:41.076 it was kind of fear of just saying you're not okay, 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:43.876 you know, you don't toe the line. And so the church, 0:12:43.996 --> 0:12:46.356 the church would practice this sort of on occasion, would 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:49.956 practice is sort of just fellowshipping, we called it, where 0:12:50.316 --> 0:12:56.836 you could literally be socially you know, estranged, socially disciplined publicly, 0:12:59.356 --> 0:13:04.276 and then apart from some sort of public statement of repentance, 0:13:04.356 --> 0:13:07.556 you could be a member of good standing in the church. 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:12.636 You cannot divorce your wife unless there is a documented 0:13:12.676 --> 0:13:16.596 case of adultery. Full stop. Women cannot participate in a 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:21.236 church service. Full stop. Singing must be a cappella. Instruments 0:13:21.276 --> 0:13:22.196 are a frivolity. 0:13:22.996 --> 0:13:26.516 You've got, you know, all these taboos around no dancing, 0:13:27.116 --> 0:13:29.076 because if you dance you're gonna lust, and if you lest, 0:13:29.076 --> 0:13:31.676 you're going to go to hell. You know, no mixed 0:13:31.676 --> 0:13:34.236 bathing we called it, which means you're not swimming around 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:36.796 in people of opposite sex, because if you do, you're 0:13:36.836 --> 0:13:40.756 gonna ust and you'll go to hell. And one of 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.116 my favorite stories about kind of illustrating this was that 0:13:44.476 --> 0:13:48.356 we were on a youth group trip and in another 0:13:48.396 --> 0:13:51.956 town and we were pulling out of the church to 0:13:52.076 --> 0:13:56.876 go to launch break and the preacher driving the van 0:13:57.316 --> 0:14:00.516 van full of you know, impressionable fourteen fifteen year olds, 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:03.436 he looks to the left and there's this guy jogging 0:14:03.556 --> 0:14:07.116 down the sidewalk and his jogging shorts. And we were 0:14:07.156 --> 0:14:10.036 not permitted to wear shorts in public because of the 0:14:10.076 --> 0:14:12.196 last thing, you know, And this guy's jogging down the 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:14.476 sidewalk and the preacher looks at him and he says, 0:14:14.476 --> 0:14:17.116 he looks real nice in those jigging shorts. He'll look 0:14:17.156 --> 0:14:17.916 real nice in hell. 0:14:19.956 --> 0:14:22.396 This is the world. Charles Sennett, the men at the 0:14:22.436 --> 0:14:25.156 center of our story belonged to He was born in 0:14:25.156 --> 0:14:28.276 West Virginia. His father was a Church of Christ preacher. 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:31.436 He got married to Elizabeth do Lean in nineteen sixty 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.636 two She was the picture of a preacher's wife. They 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:37.316 had two sons together, and by the time she was 0:14:37.316 --> 0:14:41.916 in her early forties, Elizabeth was already a grandmother. There 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:43.876 are still lots of people in the Shoals who remember 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:45.756 the sentence she. 0:14:45.876 --> 0:14:47.996 Was a chippable low my grandbaby. 0:14:48.116 --> 0:14:50.396 Let me run home mate, chocolate chip bookies and keep 0:14:50.436 --> 0:14:52.356 them over weekend with their family. 0:14:52.436 --> 0:14:54.156 Their parents gonna go out have a day. 0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:54.316 Not. 0:14:55.396 --> 0:14:58.196 This is Susan Moseley, a nurse at a local weight 0:14:58.236 --> 0:15:01.436 loss clinic who became close with Elizabeth, you. 0:15:01.476 --> 0:15:04.516 Know, brought them babies with her a lot of times, 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:06.516 and they and I'm a little thing in there in 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:09.716 that little exercise running, little cabin chair, color and books. 0:15:09.716 --> 0:15:12.876 So leg I said, there and fell the Bacchus with Charles. 0:15:12.956 --> 0:15:16.156 Got a doctorate in divinity in the nineteen seventies, became 0:15:16.196 --> 0:15:18.796 the preacher at a Church of Christ in Jasper, Alabama, 0:15:19.076 --> 0:15:22.156 a small town two hours south of the Shoals. He 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:25.196 was good. In a few years he tripled the size 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:28.876 of the church. He was handsome, dynamic, a wonderful singing 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:33.436 voice in the best Church of Christ tradition. At some 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:37.076 point in his thirties, at the point his career seemed ascendant, 0:15:37.676 --> 0:15:41.076 things began to go sideways for Charles Sennett. There were 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:44.316 rumors of some indiscretion at the Church of Christ in Jasper, 0:15:44.716 --> 0:15:48.836 an affair. The elders fired him. If you want to 0:15:48.876 --> 0:15:51.836 trace the precise moment at which things began to unravel, 0:15:52.476 --> 0:15:55.396 perhaps it was here, because there was a version of 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:57.516 events in which he could have stayed in Jasper for 0:15:57.556 --> 0:16:01.036 his whole career built upon his success there. To be 0:16:01.116 --> 0:16:03.916 a minister at a successful Church of Christ is a 0:16:03.916 --> 0:16:06.956 position of real status. There's a kind of free market 0:16:07.036 --> 0:16:09.796 in that world. When there's a hot young pature in town, 0:16:10.036 --> 0:16:13.076 people will leave their churches and join the rising star. 0:16:14.116 --> 0:16:18.716 Senate was that rising star. But then he lost it all. 0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:22.116 He was despondent. His family came upon him one night, 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:25.236 curl up in a ball on the couch. He'd had 0:16:25.236 --> 0:16:28.996 a nervous breakdown. He became suicidal. He ended up spending 0:16:29.036 --> 0:16:33.116 weeks in a psychiatric hospital in Birmingham. This is the 0:16:33.156 --> 0:16:36.916 summary from the medical records of the psychiatric facility where 0:16:36.916 --> 0:16:42.996 he was hospitalized. Exam reveals an unkempt, hostile, rebellious white male. 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:48.076 His thought content is preoccupied, his psychomotor agitated and his 0:16:48.236 --> 0:16:53.596 affect labile. His mood is depressed, his sensorium confused and 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:57.276 his tension level tense. His insight is lacking, and his 0:16:57.356 --> 0:17:03.356 judgment is poor. He found another job, then another, moved 0:17:03.396 --> 0:17:05.556 to the Shoals and became the preacher at the West 0:17:05.556 --> 0:17:09.396 Side Church of Christ in Sheffield, small working class congress gation, 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:14.036 little white church, not jasper, a step down starting over. 0:17:15.116 --> 0:17:17.756 A lot of this that I know was hearsay amongst Usaul. 0:17:18.236 --> 0:17:20.676 Yeah, you know how it passes from person to person, 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:25.556 gets bigger or gets smaller. So yeah, take everything. I 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:27.196 tell you what the grain of salt, because it was 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:27.956 all your day. 0:17:28.796 --> 0:17:31.196 This is Charlie Bill and her son Eric. They were 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:34.556 members of Charles Sennen's church. And was he Was he 0:17:34.596 --> 0:17:35.276 a good preacher? 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:39.516 Evidently he must have been. 0:17:41.156 --> 0:17:43.756 Charismatic, Yes, I would say, very charismatic. 0:17:44.356 --> 0:17:44.796 Yeah. 0:17:45.156 --> 0:17:49.156 Yeah, the point my mother called him a lady's man. 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:52.676 Oh really, Oh, your mother had a she had a. 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:56.156 Did she mean it not a way of labeling people? 0:17:58.956 --> 0:18:01.356 Did she Did she mean it in a positive way 0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:02.436 or in a negative way? 0:18:03.356 --> 0:18:05.036 My grandmother said it was negative. 0:18:07.076 --> 0:18:08.076 Yeah. 0:18:08.196 --> 0:18:12.116 She was very conservative and very uh yeah, yeah, see 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:14.196 that would have been a very very negative thing to 0:18:14.236 --> 0:18:15.156 say about somebody. 0:18:15.236 --> 0:18:17.236 My back, I say it is about as pure church 0:18:17.316 --> 0:18:18.996 or Christ as you can get. 0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:25.076 There were whispers about a woman in the West Side Congregation, Doris. 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:31.116 We heard the you know, connected rumors that she was 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:35.756 involved her husband was having some serious issues. 0:18:36.716 --> 0:18:37.196 I don't know. 0:18:37.276 --> 0:18:41.476 I reading on it, I almost would think she was 0:18:41.476 --> 0:18:45.476 seeking I think he was probably her minister, because I 0:18:45.476 --> 0:18:47.876 think she went to a West Side one. 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:51.476 Yeah, I think so at the time, and that's my understanding. 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:53.356 I don't know that for I would almost say she 0:18:53.516 --> 0:18:56.156 was probably seeking some counseling from him. 0:18:56.676 --> 0:18:58.956 Charles Sennett was in love with a woman who is 0:18:58.996 --> 0:19:01.516 not his wife. H had a book of poems in 0:19:01.556 --> 0:19:04.876 his office called Memories of the Heart with Doris's picture 0:19:04.956 --> 0:19:08.476 in it. There were rumors someone saw Valentine Charles a 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:12.116 given Dora. I talked with another from a member of 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:15.076 the West Side Church, Carl Rodin. We sat in his 0:19:15.116 --> 0:19:18.516 living room. He hit a dog on his lap. I'm 0:19:18.556 --> 0:19:21.756 just curious. Was was he a goode? 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:25.276 It was a nice little year won't be around? He 0:19:25.396 --> 0:19:28.396 was nice? Yeah, I mean you just couldn't hard a 0:19:28.396 --> 0:19:31.676 beat him. Somebody see he'd be the first one there 0:19:31.716 --> 0:19:35.236 was some food nursing home, he'd be the first one 0:19:35.236 --> 0:19:36.676 there was something to eat, or you know. 0:19:38.476 --> 0:19:39.396 Was he a good preacher? 0:19:39.676 --> 0:19:42.476 Yeah, I just want to say he had a split 0:19:42.516 --> 0:19:43.836 person out the best I can tail. 0:19:43.996 --> 0:19:49.756 Yeah, do you remember uh he had been It came 0:19:49.756 --> 0:19:53.916 out during the trial and he had been Uh he 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:57.436 had been at a church in Jasper and had been 0:19:57.876 --> 0:19:59.716 fired from that job because he was the same thing, 0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:01.396 having an affair with someone in the church. 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:05.276 We see, they should have told us when they fired him, 0:20:05.276 --> 0:20:08.236 but didn't. Nobody sent him back to him. Yeah, all 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:10.996 over Wilsley. Yeah, there was. 0:20:10.916 --> 0:20:13.396 No way of there was he just do you remember 0:20:13.436 --> 0:20:15.796 anything about how he came to the church and first of. 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:19.836 All, you know, I'll just remember there not Yeah, I 0:20:19.876 --> 0:20:22.316 don't know, Yeah, I don't know. They got to hold 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:23.236 over anything. 0:20:24.636 --> 0:20:25.796 So he was really popular. 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:30.196 Yeah, yeah, he was an aspho. Well, like I said, 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:32.396 he'd be the first one at somebody's house with food, 0:20:33.196 --> 0:20:36.196 you know, or he was just an ask guy. That's 0:20:36.236 --> 0:20:40.596 all you might got to Nobody never thought that, that's 0:20:40.596 --> 0:20:42.196 what you know, he would doing something like that. 0:20:43.676 --> 0:20:47.876 In the winter of nineteen eighty eight, Charles and his wife, Elizabeth, 0:20:47.956 --> 0:20:51.316 fought she wanted a divorce, and they both knew what 0:20:51.356 --> 0:20:54.996 that meant. He shouted at her, I won't lose another church. 0:20:55.956 --> 0:20:57.956 He was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt 0:20:58.076 --> 0:21:02.556 from failed business ventures, This on a preacher's salary. His 0:21:02.676 --> 0:21:06.636 behavior grew erratic. The walls began to close in. He 0:21:06.676 --> 0:21:08.756 had a secret he could not share a marriage that 0:21:08.836 --> 0:21:12.116 was to integrating demons he was desperately trying to keep 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:15.716 at bay. He still goes to preach every Sunday, but 0:21:15.876 --> 0:21:19.596 no one knows the full story of his life. No one, 0:21:19.796 --> 0:21:22.636 that is, except the only person who would have mattered 0:21:22.676 --> 0:21:39.756 for Charles Sennett, and that was God. One thing I 0:21:39.756 --> 0:21:46.356 don't understand is he seems completely ill suited for the ministry. 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:51.636 He seems volatile. He's having an affair with a congregant, 0:21:51.716 --> 0:21:55.556 his finances are a mess, he's abusive to his wife's 0:21:56.156 --> 0:21:59.556 I'm just curious, how does he How would someone like 0:21:59.596 --> 0:22:03.956 that enter and survive in the ministry, particularly in a 0:22:03.996 --> 0:22:09.356 world where people are as conscious of conduct as the 0:22:09.396 --> 0:22:10.676 Church of Christ community is. 0:22:11.596 --> 0:22:14.476 He worked very hard to make sure nobody knew outside 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:16.676 that tight circle of biological family. 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:19.916 I asked the Church of Christ minister named Rodney Plunkett 0:22:19.916 --> 0:22:22.036 about the case he knew Charles Senate. 0:22:22.676 --> 0:22:27.036 That's not a typical, but yeah, they mask. 0:22:27.796 --> 0:22:32.836 And the amount of effort that must have gone into masking. 0:22:32.476 --> 0:22:37.076 That enormous Malcolm is absolutely enormous. 0:22:38.356 --> 0:22:41.196 I asked my theologian friend Lee Camp the same question. 0:22:42.196 --> 0:22:45.916 One of the things I'm trying to understand is we 0:22:46.036 --> 0:22:51.316 have this man Church of Christ, minister Charles Senate in 0:22:52.356 --> 0:22:58.836 little town, northwestern Alabama, who is having an affair and 0:22:58.996 --> 0:23:03.476 his wife has decided to divorce him. And you know, 0:23:04.436 --> 0:23:10.116 I'm wander were he you know, night or were he 0:23:10.156 --> 0:23:13.836 a Muslim or whatever, all those all those traditions would 0:23:13.836 --> 0:23:18.116 have would shape his his dysfunction in some way. And 0:23:18.196 --> 0:23:21.036 I'm curious how does his How does his tradition shape 0:23:21.036 --> 0:23:23.636 his dysfunction? That's what I'm trying to get at, what's 0:23:23.676 --> 0:23:27.036 going on inside his head as he processes the kind 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:32.876 of his affair, his wife's decision it is, and the 0:23:32.956 --> 0:23:36.876 chaos of his own life. And he's he's the pastor 0:23:36.956 --> 0:23:41.276 of this this little white Clapper church in a corner 0:23:41.316 --> 0:23:42.396 of Sheffield. 0:23:43.756 --> 0:23:46.916 I mean, who knows, right, But you know, I would 0:23:46.956 --> 0:23:54.636 make up that the sense of shame is overwhelming, and 0:23:55.876 --> 0:24:01.916 when you're in a context of overwhelming shame, it can 0:24:02.236 --> 0:24:06.956 do terrifying things to the psyche. And in the absence 0:24:06.996 --> 0:24:15.356 of any sort of constructive grace. And I don't mean 0:24:15.356 --> 0:24:19.516 by that some flabby sense of all everything's okay, you know, grace, 0:24:19.596 --> 0:24:23.316 but some sort of constructive sense of grace, you know, 0:24:23.836 --> 0:24:27.396 it can quickly lead you to all sorts of madness. 0:24:29.316 --> 0:24:34.116 Christian grace, God's unmerited favor and loving kindness, a gift 0:24:34.236 --> 0:24:39.036 freely given to humanity, unearned and undeserved, a spontaneous act 0:24:39.156 --> 0:24:44.116