1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:19,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, hello Malcolm. 2 00:00:19,196 --> 00:00:19,436 Speaker 2: Here. 3 00:00:19,796 --> 00:00:22,196 Speaker 1: Before we get to the episode, I want to let 4 00:00:22,236 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: you know you can get this entire season now ad 5 00:00:25,836 --> 00:00:30,396 Speaker 1: free by subscribing to Revisionist History on Pushkin Plus, sign 6 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:32,916 Speaker 1: up on the show page on Apple Podcasts, or at 7 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:38,516 Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm, slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access 8 00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:43,996 Speaker 1: ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content 9 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 1: for all Pushkin shows. A little while ago, a friend 10 00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:50,796 Speaker 1: of mine told me, you have to meet this person 11 00:00:50,836 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: I know, Cape Porterfield. She's got the strangest job in America. 12 00:00:56,356 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 1: So I did. We got together Porterfield and I in 13 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:02,876 Speaker 1: a little conference room in Manhattan. I just want to 14 00:01:02,956 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: understand how you ended up where you are. 15 00:01:08,156 --> 00:01:10,516 Speaker 3: So you're kind of viewing us. We're just talking. You're 16 00:01:11,196 --> 00:01:15,636 Speaker 3: thinking about whether there's something here that will that'll evolve 17 00:01:15,636 --> 00:01:18,676 Speaker 3: over time that you would imagine being putting in the podcast. 18 00:01:19,036 --> 00:01:19,836 Speaker 4: Was that kind of everything? 19 00:01:19,956 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: Yeah? 20 00:01:20,156 --> 00:01:21,956 Speaker 5: Yeah. 21 00:01:22,116 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 1: Porterfield is a psychologist. We talked for a few hours, 22 00:01:25,876 --> 00:01:30,236 Speaker 1: then again and again, one conversation leading to another, until 23 00:01:30,276 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: she began to talk about a case that had affected 24 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:36,036 Speaker 1: her deeply. Although she hasn't used the word case, she 25 00:01:36,156 --> 00:01:39,076 Speaker 1: says person a man on death row. 26 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 3: When I first went to see Kenny, so now it 27 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 3: had been two months since the execution attempt. He wanted 28 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:50,916 Speaker 3: to talk for the first probably two hours of our 29 00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 3: visit about how beautiful his goodbyes were and the love 30 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 3: he received from his family as he was going into 31 00:01:58,756 --> 00:02:01,916 Speaker 3: the execution. That's what he wanted to start with. And 32 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 3: I found this so powerful and also fascinating, honestly as 33 00:02:06,596 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 3: a clinician, because what I first thought was, Oh, he's avoiding, right, 34 00:02:12,516 --> 00:02:15,636 Speaker 3: he can't talk about the execution. He talked to me 35 00:02:15,676 --> 00:02:18,356 Speaker 3: about love for probably two two and a half hours, 36 00:02:18,756 --> 00:02:20,276 Speaker 3: to the point where I had to say, you know, 37 00:02:20,596 --> 00:02:23,036 Speaker 3: this is incredible and I'm so happy you're sharing it, 38 00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:26,756 Speaker 3: and I'm not surprised. I also though, I want to 39 00:02:26,796 --> 00:02:27,436 Speaker 3: know what happened. 40 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 1: What happened was a botched execution punishment for a crime 41 00:02:36,956 --> 00:02:40,476 Speaker 1: that took place over thirty years before, a river of 42 00:02:40,476 --> 00:02:44,716 Speaker 1: blood that had already claimed the lives of three others. 43 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:48,956 Speaker 1: Kate Porderfield told me her version of events. Then I 44 00:02:48,996 --> 00:02:51,516 Speaker 1: went out and got other people's versions of what happened, 45 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:53,676 Speaker 1: and that's where the story I'm about to tell you 46 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:57,076 Speaker 1: comes from. I want to figure out why this case 47 00:02:57,116 --> 00:02:59,476 Speaker 1: went on for as long as it did, why it 48 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:02,556 Speaker 1: took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, 49 00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:07,516 Speaker 1: And the other question, maybe the more important question, is 50 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:10,396 Speaker 1: why have we quitted a system that, in trying to 51 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 1: respond to suffering all too often makes suffering worse. 52 00:03:15,276 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 3: He made me really pause and think a lot, watching 53 00:03:18,396 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 3: someone only start from a place of love after something 54 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:23,996 Speaker 3: so horrible was I have never seen that before. 55 00:03:26,396 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 1: Welcome to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 56 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 1: This is a special seven episode series, The Alabama Murders, 57 00:03:40,236 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 1: Episode one, The True Church. So we're now in Are 58 00:03:53,156 --> 00:03:54,156 Speaker 1: we in Florence here? 59 00:03:54,596 --> 00:03:54,796 Speaker 6: Yes? 60 00:03:55,916 --> 00:03:59,676 Speaker 1: This story takes place in northwestern Alabama, in an area 61 00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: called the Shoals, the so called Alabama black Belt, the 62 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:06,556 Speaker 1: broad flat swath of fertile farmland where the old Antebellum 63 00:04:06,596 --> 00:04:11,156 Speaker 1: cotton plantations were established. Hours drive to the south. This 64 00:04:11,276 --> 00:04:15,876 Speaker 1: is Rolling Hills, Appalachia, not the Mississippi Delta. Four towns 65 00:04:16,116 --> 00:04:20,676 Speaker 1: on either side of the Tennessee River, Sheffield, Discumbia, Mussel Shoals, 66 00:04:20,676 --> 00:04:25,636 Speaker 1: and Florence. Sheffield is working class, struggling Muscle Shoals is 67 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:29,516 Speaker 1: a spiritual home of rhythm and blues. Discumbia is famous 68 00:04:29,556 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 1: for being the birthplace of Helen Keller. Florence is the largest, 69 00:04:34,116 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: a graceful town of beautiful pre war buildings with a 70 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 1: Frank Lloyd Wrighthouse downtown. 71 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 6: You know, there's no interstate that runs through Florence, there's 72 00:04:42,676 --> 00:04:45,596 Speaker 6: no major airport, so it's a little bit of a 73 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 6: closed society almost. 74 00:04:47,476 --> 00:04:48,676 Speaker 7: It's really neat. 75 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: I started going to Alabama after talking to Cape Porterfield, 76 00:04:52,796 --> 00:04:54,716 Speaker 1: and on one of my first trips, I met a 77 00:04:54,756 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 1: man named Grant Asbell, a preacher early forties, big beard 78 00:04:59,196 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 1: baseball cap, though not on Sunday morning. Of course. He 79 00:05:02,476 --> 00:05:03,596 Speaker 1: was my guide to Florence. 80 00:05:04,276 --> 00:05:06,956 Speaker 6: You know, there's good music, there's good art, there's good food, 81 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:10,676 Speaker 6: but you just don't happen here. You have to want 82 00:05:10,836 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 6: to come to Florence. 83 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:16,596 Speaker 1: This is the place where it all started with a 84 00:05:16,596 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: personal transgression, a matter of the heart, by another preacher, 85 00:05:20,756 --> 00:05:21,996 Speaker 1: a man named Charles Sennate. 86 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:26,756 Speaker 6: I was only seven years old when it happened, but 87 00:05:26,876 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 6: I remember it being really disconcerting because if you're in 88 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:34,156 Speaker 6: this group and like it in this area in particular, 89 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 6: I mean, you've been to Florence, Florence, you don't get 90 00:05:37,316 --> 00:05:42,116 Speaker 6: here by accident, and so the idea that someone within 91 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:47,516 Speaker 6: this framework could do something like Charles Sennett did was 92 00:05:47,636 --> 00:05:50,396 Speaker 6: very disruptive. It was talked about kind of in hush tones. 93 00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 6: I was talking to our local he goes to church 94 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:55,716 Speaker 6: with us here. He's actually the historian for the city 95 00:05:55,756 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 6: of Florence, and he was telling me that one of 96 00:05:59,476 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 6: the preachers in one of the churches in town. While 97 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 6: that was going on, got up in the poolpit and said, 98 00:06:05,916 --> 00:06:09,236 Speaker 6: Charles Sennett is a faithful Christian brother. The things that 99 00:06:09,276 --> 00:06:13,676 Speaker 6: are being said about him are lies with the idea right. 100 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 6: He is a faithful Church of Christ member and almost 101 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:22,956 Speaker 6: incapable of this kind of thing. 102 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:41,556 Speaker 1: In Alabama, the Shoals is the spiritual center of the 103 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 1: Protestant denomination known as the Church of Christ. There are 104 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: many many Church of Christ congregations within an hour's drive 105 00:06:48,316 --> 00:06:50,996 Speaker 1: of Florence. And I don't think that any of the 106 00:06:51,036 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 1: things we're going to explore over the course of this 107 00:06:53,076 --> 00:06:57,116 Speaker 1: series will make sense unless you first understand something about 108 00:06:57,116 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: this denomination. If I blindfolded you and put you in 109 00:07:01,476 --> 00:07:04,756 Speaker 1: an early nineteen eighties Church of Christ congregation, how long 110 00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:06,756 Speaker 1: would it take you before you knew you were in 111 00:07:06,836 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 1: Church of Christ. 112 00:07:09,156 --> 00:07:11,996 Speaker 5: I would know in about three minutes or less. 113 00:07:12,956 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: This is Lee camp who has taught theology for years 114 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:19,116 Speaker 1: at Lipscomb University in Nashville, one of the most prestigious 115 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 1: of the many universities around the United States affiliated with 116 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,036 Speaker 1: the Church of Christ. Would what would be the tip off? 117 00:07:26,676 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 5: Well, the singing would be acappella is the first thing, 118 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 5: and so you know, the only place you're going to 119 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 5: find a cocapel singing is probably either going to be 120 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 5: Mennonites or Church of Christ. It may be Church of 121 00:07:35,396 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 5: the Brethren. And then there are going to be certain 122 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 5: phrases that are going to get said that would just 123 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 5: be a tip off that you know, this is what 124 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 5: in the prayers are going to say, Lord, guard, guide 125 00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 5: and direct us. I don't know, there just be language 126 00:07:49,836 --> 00:07:51,396 Speaker 5: like that that I would immediately know. 127 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:54,636 Speaker 1: By the way, for those of you who know something 128 00:07:54,636 --> 00:07:59,916 Speaker 1: about country music, what do willn Jennings, Roy Orbison, Loeurete Olinn, 129 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:04,196 Speaker 1: Glenn Campbell, Dwight Yoakam, Pat Boon, Crystal Gale, I could 130 00:08:04,236 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 1: go on, all have in common. They all came out 131 00:08:07,596 --> 00:08:09,836 Speaker 1: of the a cappella tradition of the Church of Christ. 132 00:08:10,516 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: It's not Sunday morning. I just take you to a church. 133 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: It's empty. How long does it take you to know 134 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: that you're in a Church of Christ. There's no one 135 00:08:17,396 --> 00:08:22,556 Speaker 1: in there. You look around, what do you see? That's 136 00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 1: a tip of no organ? 137 00:08:25,076 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 5: There's no organ, and just the whole architecture is very, 138 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 5: very simple. There's lack of pretense. There's certainly no art 139 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 5: on the walls. There's no stations for the cross. There's 140 00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 5: pews and there are there's on the one side at 141 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:48,636 Speaker 5: the front is going to be a board that shows 142 00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 5: attendance contribution numbers. On the other side, it's going to 143 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:54,876 Speaker 5: be a board that has the hymn numbers that you 144 00:08:54,956 --> 00:08:57,596 Speaker 5: slide in with the numbers. And in the middle it's 145 00:08:57,596 --> 00:08:58,836 Speaker 5: going to be a simple poolpit. 146 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 1: I know about the Church of Christ because my best 147 00:09:03,316 --> 00:09:08,276 Speaker 1: friend is the screenwriter Charles Randolph, whose father Dale was 148 00:09:08,316 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 1: a Church of Christ, who went to Lipscomb. And once 149 00:09:11,796 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: when I was visiting Lipscomb, the same school where Lee 150 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 1: Camp teaches, a little old lady came out to me 151 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:22,036 Speaker 1: and said, are you Dale Randolph's famous son Chuck's friend. Yes, 152 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:25,116 Speaker 1: I am. And while I'm playing this game, I should 153 00:09:25,116 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: point out that halfway through my conversation with Grant asboll 154 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:32,236 Speaker 1: I discovered that he did his doctorate at Lipscomb with 155 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:35,796 Speaker 1: Lee Camp. The point is that the Church of Christ 156 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:38,716 Speaker 1: is a very small world. It's a family. 157 00:09:40,076 --> 00:09:42,516 Speaker 5: Now, you're from Alabama, I am from Alabama. You were 158 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 5: born in Talladega, Telladega and not Talladega or Talladega, it's 159 00:09:48,956 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 5: Taladia Telladigga. 160 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:53,756 Speaker 1: And you grew up in the Church of Christ. 161 00:09:54,076 --> 00:09:54,396 Speaker 5: I did. 162 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:59,556 Speaker 1: When you say that you are that you belong to 163 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: the Church of Christ, what are you saying about? What 164 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:06,356 Speaker 1: does that mean? How's that different from I'm a Baptist. 165 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:10,756 Speaker 5: Well, it depends on who you're talking to and where 166 00:10:10,796 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 5: they are in their experience of Churches of Christ. But 167 00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 5: when someone says I'm a member of the Church of Christ, 168 00:10:18,836 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 5: that means that they are members of the true Church 169 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 5: that restored New Testament Christianity, and everybody else is wrong, 170 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:33,596 Speaker 5: and that this is the true Church. That's not a denomination, 171 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 5: that's not Protestant, it's not Catholic, it's just the true Church. 172 00:10:38,516 --> 00:10:42,356 Speaker 1: In the taxonomy of Southern Protestantism, there are the Pentecostals, 173 00:10:42,596 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 1: the singing, the swaying, speaking in tongues emotion. The Church 174 00:10:46,476 --> 00:10:50,196 Speaker 1: of Christ isn't that. Then there are the fundamentalists, the 175 00:10:50,236 --> 00:10:53,916 Speaker 1: Southern Baptists, fire and Brimstone. The Church of Christ isn't 176 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 1: that either. The Baptists and the Pentecostals can sometimes go 177 00:10:57,956 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 1: on all Sunday afternoon. In a Church of Christ, You're 178 00:11:01,036 --> 00:11:04,756 Speaker 1: out in an hour. These are the people of the book. 179 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:07,236 Speaker 1: There is said to be more advanced degrees in the 180 00:11:07,276 --> 00:11:10,556 Speaker 1: Church of Christ's leadership than any of the Southern denominations. 181 00:11:11,116 --> 00:11:15,876 Speaker 1: There are a church of rules and certainties, simplicity and clarity, 182 00:11:16,356 --> 00:11:19,636 Speaker 1: a church inspired by the idea that anyone who studies 183 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:23,116 Speaker 1: the Bible, reads it closely and thoughtfully, can discern the 184 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: path to salvation. That's the good part, the beautiful part. 185 00:11:28,356 --> 00:11:30,796 Speaker 1: But the other part, and by the way, no one 186 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 1: is more willing to acknowledge the limitations of the Church 187 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 1: of Christ than people who belong to the Church of Christ, 188 00:11:36,636 --> 00:11:40,796 Speaker 1: is that the rules, the certainty, the intimacy can become 189 00:11:40,836 --> 00:11:42,076 Speaker 1: a straight jacket. 190 00:11:44,116 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 5: Like I love and hate Church to Christ. You know 191 00:11:48,956 --> 00:11:58,676 Speaker 5: I love them and I have hated them, and you 192 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 5: know I love them because I've spent my life doing 193 00:12:03,676 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 5: what I've done with my life because of what I 194 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 5: learned in my church. You know, I was loved by 195 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 5: my church, loved by the people in that church. And 196 00:12:17,596 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 5: yet at the same time that the traditions in the 197 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:23,476 Speaker 5: latter part of the twentieth century have done a lot 198 00:12:23,516 --> 00:12:26,276 Speaker 5: of damage to a lot of people, including me. There's 199 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 5: a sense of fear, and there's there's always the danger 200 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:38,956 Speaker 5: that you'll be kind of cut off, and so that 201 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 5: it was kind of fear of just saying you're not okay, 202 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,876 Speaker 5: you know, you don't toe the line. And so the church, 203 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 5: the church would practice this sort of on occasion, would 204 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 5: practice is sort of just fellowshipping, we called it, where 205 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:56,836 Speaker 5: you could literally be socially you know, estranged, socially disciplined publicly, 206 00:12:59,356 --> 00:13:04,276 Speaker 5: and then apart from some sort of public statement of repentance, 207 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:07,556 Speaker 5: you could be a member of good standing in the church. 208 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:12,636 Speaker 1: You cannot divorce your wife unless there is a documented 209 00:13:12,676 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 1: case of adultery. Full stop. Women cannot participate in a 210 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:21,236 Speaker 1: church service. Full stop. Singing must be a cappella. Instruments 211 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 1: are a frivolity. 212 00:13:22,996 --> 00:13:26,516 Speaker 5: You've got, you know, all these taboos around no dancing, 213 00:13:27,116 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 5: because if you dance you're gonna lust, and if you lest, 214 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:31,676 Speaker 5: you're going to go to hell. You know, no mixed 215 00:13:31,676 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 5: bathing we called it, which means you're not swimming around 216 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 5: in people of opposite sex, because if you do, you're 217 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 5: gonna ust and you'll go to hell. And one of 218 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 5: my favorite stories about kind of illustrating this was that 219 00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 5: we were on a youth group trip and in another 220 00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 5: town and we were pulling out of the church to 221 00:13:52,076 --> 00:13:56,876 Speaker 5: go to launch break and the preacher driving the van 222 00:13:57,316 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 5: van full of you know, impressionable fourteen fifteen year olds, 223 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:03,436 Speaker 5: he looks to the left and there's this guy jogging 224 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:07,116 Speaker 5: down the sidewalk and his jogging shorts. And we were 225 00:14:07,156 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 5: not permitted to wear shorts in public because of the 226 00:14:10,076 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 5: last thing, you know, And this guy's jogging down the 227 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 5: sidewalk and the preacher looks at him and he says, 228 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:17,116 Speaker 5: he looks real nice in those jigging shorts. He'll look 229 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:17,916 Speaker 5: real nice in hell. 230 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: This is the world. Charles Sennett, the men at the 231 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 1: center of our story belonged to He was born in 232 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: West Virginia. His father was a Church of Christ preacher. 233 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: He got married to Elizabeth do Lean in nineteen sixty 234 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:34,636 Speaker 1: two She was the picture of a preacher's wife. They 235 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:37,316 Speaker 1: had two sons together, and by the time she was 236 00:14:37,316 --> 00:14:41,916 Speaker 1: in her early forties, Elizabeth was already a grandmother. There 237 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:43,876 Speaker 1: are still lots of people in the Shoals who remember 238 00:14:43,956 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: the sentence she. 239 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 4: Was a chippable low my grandbaby. 240 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 8: Let me run home mate, chocolate chip bookies and keep 241 00:14:50,436 --> 00:14:52,356 Speaker 8: them over weekend with their family. 242 00:14:52,436 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 4: Their parents gonna go out have a day. 243 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:54,316 Speaker 8: Not. 244 00:14:55,396 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: This is Susan Moseley, a nurse at a local weight 245 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:01,436 Speaker 1: loss clinic who became close with Elizabeth, you. 246 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:04,516 Speaker 8: Know, brought them babies with her a lot of times, 247 00:15:04,836 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 8: and they and I'm a little thing in there in 248 00:15:06,596 --> 00:15:09,716 Speaker 8: that little exercise running, little cabin chair, color and books. 249 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:12,876 Speaker 1: So leg I said, there and fell the Bacchus with Charles. 250 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 1: Got a doctorate in divinity in the nineteen seventies, became 251 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: the preacher at a Church of Christ in Jasper, Alabama, 252 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:22,156 Speaker 1: a small town two hours south of the Shoals. He 253 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:25,196 Speaker 1: was good. In a few years he tripled the size 254 00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:28,876 Speaker 1: of the church. He was handsome, dynamic, a wonderful singing 255 00:15:28,956 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: voice in the best Church of Christ tradition. At some 256 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 1: point in his thirties, at the point his career seemed ascendant, 257 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:41,076 Speaker 1: things began to go sideways for Charles Sennett. There were 258 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:44,316 Speaker 1: rumors of some indiscretion at the Church of Christ in Jasper, 259 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:48,836 Speaker 1: an affair. The elders fired him. If you want to 260 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: trace the precise moment at which things began to unravel, 261 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 1: perhaps it was here, because there was a version of 262 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:57,516 Speaker 1: events in which he could have stayed in Jasper for 263 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 1: his whole career built upon his success there. To be 264 00:16:01,116 --> 00:16:03,916 Speaker 1: a minister at a successful Church of Christ is a 265 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:06,956 Speaker 1: position of real status. There's a kind of free market 266 00:16:07,036 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 1: in that world. When there's a hot young pature in town, 267 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 1: people will leave their churches and join the rising star. 268 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:18,716 Speaker 1: Senate was that rising star. But then he lost it all. 269 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: He was despondent. His family came upon him one night, 270 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 1: curl up in a ball on the couch. He'd had 271 00:16:25,236 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown. He became suicidal. He ended up spending 272 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:33,116 Speaker 1: weeks in a psychiatric hospital in Birmingham. This is the 273 00:16:33,156 --> 00:16:36,916 Speaker 1: summary from the medical records of the psychiatric facility where 274 00:16:36,916 --> 00:16:42,996 Speaker 1: he was hospitalized. Exam reveals an unkempt, hostile, rebellious white male. 275 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:48,076 Speaker 1: His thought content is preoccupied, his psychomotor agitated and his 276 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: affect labile. His mood is depressed, his sensorium confused and 277 00:16:53,636 --> 00:16:57,276 Speaker 1: his tension level tense. His insight is lacking, and his 278 00:16:57,356 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 1: judgment is poor. He found another job, then another, moved 279 00:17:03,396 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: to the Shoals and became the preacher at the West 280 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:09,396 Speaker 1: Side Church of Christ in Sheffield, small working class congress gation, 281 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 1: little white church, not jasper, a step down starting over. 282 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 4: A lot of this that I know was hearsay amongst Usaul. 283 00:17:18,236 --> 00:17:20,676 Speaker 8: Yeah, you know how it passes from person to person, 284 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:25,556 Speaker 8: gets bigger or gets smaller. So yeah, take everything. I 285 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 8: tell you what the grain of salt, because it was 286 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:27,956 Speaker 8: all your day. 287 00:17:28,796 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 1: This is Charlie Bill and her son Eric. They were 288 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:34,556 Speaker 1: members of Charles Sennen's church. And was he Was he 289 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:35,276 Speaker 1: a good preacher? 290 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:39,516 Speaker 9: Evidently he must have been. 291 00:17:41,156 --> 00:17:43,756 Speaker 4: Charismatic, Yes, I would say, very charismatic. 292 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:44,796 Speaker 7: Yeah. 293 00:17:45,156 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 8: Yeah, the point my mother called him a lady's man. 294 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:52,676 Speaker 1: Oh really, Oh, your mother had a she had a. 295 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 4: Did she mean it not a way of labeling people? 296 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 1: Did she Did she mean it in a positive way 297 00:18:01,476 --> 00:18:02,436 Speaker 1: or in a negative way? 298 00:18:03,356 --> 00:18:05,036 Speaker 4: My grandmother said it was negative. 299 00:18:07,076 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. 300 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 9: She was very conservative and very uh yeah, yeah, see 301 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:14,196 Speaker 9: that would have been a very very negative thing to 302 00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 9: say about somebody. 303 00:18:15,236 --> 00:18:17,236 Speaker 8: My back, I say it is about as pure church 304 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:18,996 Speaker 8: or Christ as you can get. 305 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 1: There were whispers about a woman in the West Side Congregation, Doris. 306 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 9: We heard the you know, connected rumors that she was 307 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 9: involved her husband was having some serious issues. 308 00:18:36,716 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 4: I don't know. 309 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:41,476 Speaker 9: I reading on it, I almost would think she was 310 00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:45,476 Speaker 9: seeking I think he was probably her minister, because I 311 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:47,876 Speaker 9: think she went to a West Side one. 312 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so at the time, and that's my understanding. 313 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 9: I don't know that for I would almost say she 314 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:56,156 Speaker 9: was probably seeking some counseling from him. 315 00:18:56,676 --> 00:18:58,956 Speaker 1: Charles Sennett was in love with a woman who is 316 00:18:58,996 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: not his wife. H had a book of poems in 317 00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:04,876 Speaker 1: his office called Memories of the Heart with Doris's picture 318 00:19:04,956 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 1: in it. There were rumors someone saw Valentine Charles a 319 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:12,116 Speaker 1: given Dora. I talked with another from a member of 320 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 1: the West Side Church, Carl Rodin. We sat in his 321 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 1: living room. He hit a dog on his lap. I'm 322 00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 1: just curious. Was was he a goode? 323 00:19:21,756 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 2: It was a nice little year won't be around? He 324 00:19:25,396 --> 00:19:28,396 Speaker 2: was nice? Yeah, I mean you just couldn't hard a 325 00:19:28,396 --> 00:19:31,676 Speaker 2: beat him. Somebody see he'd be the first one there 326 00:19:31,716 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 2: was some food nursing home, he'd be the first one 327 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:36,676 Speaker 2: there was something to eat, or you know. 328 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 1: Was he a good preacher? 329 00:19:39,676 --> 00:19:42,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to say he had a split 330 00:19:42,516 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 2: person out the best I can tail. 331 00:19:43,996 --> 00:19:49,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you remember uh he had been It came 332 00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:53,916 Speaker 1: out during the trial and he had been Uh he 333 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:57,436 Speaker 1: had been at a church in Jasper and had been 334 00:19:57,876 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: fired from that job because he was the same thing, 335 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:01,396 Speaker 1: having an affair with someone in the church. 336 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,276 Speaker 2: We see, they should have told us when they fired him, 337 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 2: but didn't. Nobody sent him back to him. Yeah, all 338 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:10,996 Speaker 2: over Wilsley. Yeah, there was. 339 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 1: No way of there was he just do you remember 340 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 1: anything about how he came to the church and first of. 341 00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 2: All, you know, I'll just remember there not Yeah, I 342 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:22,316 Speaker 2: don't know, Yeah, I don't know. They got to hold 343 00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 2: over anything. 344 00:20:24,636 --> 00:20:25,796 Speaker 1: So he was really popular. 345 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:30,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was an aspho. Well, like I said, 346 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 2: he'd be the first one at somebody's house with food, 347 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:36,196 Speaker 2: you know, or he was just an ask guy. That's 348 00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 2: all you might got to Nobody never thought that, that's 349 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:42,196 Speaker 2: what you know, he would doing something like that. 350 00:20:43,676 --> 00:20:47,876 Speaker 1: In the winter of nineteen eighty eight, Charles and his wife, Elizabeth, 351 00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:51,316 Speaker 1: fought she wanted a divorce, and they both knew what 352 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 1: that meant. He shouted at her, I won't lose another church. 353 00:20:55,956 --> 00:20:57,956 Speaker 1: He was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt 354 00:20:58,076 --> 00:21:02,556 Speaker 1: from failed business ventures, This on a preacher's salary. His 355 00:21:02,676 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: behavior grew erratic. The walls began to close in. He 356 00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:08,756 Speaker 1: had a secret he could not share a marriage that 357 00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:12,116 Speaker 1: was to integrating demons he was desperately trying to keep 358 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:15,716 Speaker 1: at bay. He still goes to preach every Sunday, but 359 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:19,596 Speaker 1: no one knows the full story of his life. No one, 360 00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:22,636 Speaker 1: that is, except the only person who would have mattered 361 00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: for Charles Sennett, and that was God. One thing I 362 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 1: don't understand is he seems completely ill suited for the ministry. 363 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:51,636 Speaker 1: He seems volatile. He's having an affair with a congregant, 364 00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:55,556 Speaker 1: his finances are a mess, he's abusive to his wife's 365 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:59,556 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, how does he How would someone like 366 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:03,956 Speaker 1: that enter and survive in the ministry, particularly in a 367 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:09,356 Speaker 1: world where people are as conscious of conduct as the 368 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:10,676 Speaker 1: Church of Christ community is. 369 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:14,476 Speaker 7: He worked very hard to make sure nobody knew outside 370 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 7: that tight circle of biological family. 371 00:22:17,356 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: I asked the Church of Christ minister named Rodney Plunkett 372 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:22,036 Speaker 1: about the case he knew Charles Senate. 373 00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 7: That's not a typical, but yeah, they mask. 374 00:22:27,796 --> 00:22:32,836 Speaker 1: And the amount of effort that must have gone into masking. 375 00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:37,076 Speaker 7: That enormous Malcolm is absolutely enormous. 376 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:41,196 Speaker 1: I asked my theologian friend Lee Camp the same question. 377 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: One of the things I'm trying to understand is we 378 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 1: have this man Church of Christ, minister Charles Senate in 379 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: little town, northwestern Alabama, who is having an affair and 380 00:22:58,996 --> 00:23:03,476 Speaker 1: his wife has decided to divorce him. And you know, 381 00:23:04,436 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: I'm wander were he you know, night or were he 382 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 1: a Muslim or whatever, all those all those traditions would 383 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: have would shape his his dysfunction in some way. And 384 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: I'm curious how does his How does his tradition shape 385 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 1: his dysfunction? That's what I'm trying to get at, what's 386 00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: going on inside his head as he processes the kind 387 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:32,876 Speaker 1: of his affair, his wife's decision it is, and the 388 00:23:32,956 --> 00:23:36,876 Speaker 1: chaos of his own life. And he's he's the pastor 389 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:41,276 Speaker 1: of this this little white Clapper church in a corner 390 00:23:41,316 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 1: of Sheffield. 391 00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:46,916 Speaker 5: I mean, who knows, right, But you know, I would 392 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 5: make up that the sense of shame is overwhelming, and 393 00:23:55,876 --> 00:24:01,916 Speaker 5: when you're in a context of overwhelming shame, it can 394 00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:06,956 Speaker 5: do terrifying things to the psyche. And in the absence 395 00:24:06,996 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 5: of any sort of constructive grace. And I don't mean 396 00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 5: by that some flabby sense of all everything's okay, you know, grace, 397 00:24:19,596 --> 00:24:23,316 Speaker 5: but some sort of constructive sense of grace, you know, 398 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:27,396 Speaker 5: it can quickly lead you to all sorts of madness. 399 00:24:29,316 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 1: Christian grace, God's unmerited favor and loving kindness, a gift 400 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 1: freely given to humanity, unearned and undeserved, a spontaneous act 401 00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 1: of generosity on God's part, extended to all humanity, regardless 402 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:47,276 Speaker 1: of their sin. What Camp was saying, and what many 403 00:24:47,316 --> 00:24:49,836 Speaker 1: others in the Church of Christ came to believe, was 404 00:24:49,836 --> 00:24:53,396 Speaker 1: that their church, particularly their church in that era forty 405 00:24:53,516 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 1: fifty years ago, did not understand grace. Grand Aswald told 406 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:00,396 Speaker 1: me about his uncle, the song leader in a Church 407 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 1: of Christ congregation, who once talked a little bit too 408 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 1: much about grace and forgiveness at Sunday school, and so 409 00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 1: was let go. The church elder wouldn't even let him 410 00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 1: finish out his contract. Because if you had deciphered the 411 00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 1: rules of the Bible, the logic of the Christian text, 412 00:25:16,276 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 1: then there shouldn't be any deviation should there It was 413 00:25:19,556 --> 00:25:22,716 Speaker 1: all crystal clear. And if you started to grant forgiveness 414 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:25,436 Speaker 1: for those who strayed from that narrow path, then what 415 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:29,436 Speaker 1: incentive did people have to follow the narrow path? That 416 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:33,236 Speaker 1: was thinking And it's where the shame that Lee Camp 417 00:25:33,316 --> 00:25:37,036 Speaker 1: was talking about came from, because in the absence of grace, 418 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:41,876 Speaker 1: there is no relief from transgression. People like Aswell and 419 00:25:41,956 --> 00:25:44,316 Speaker 1: Lee Camp had been trying to push their church in 420 00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 1: a more forgiving direction to bring grace into their religious experience. 421 00:25:48,876 --> 00:25:51,956 Speaker 1: But in the nineteen eighties in a small town in Alabama, 422 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 1: this is what Asbel said. 423 00:25:54,796 --> 00:25:59,716 Speaker 6: The idea behind that is this idea that if you 424 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 6: want to one day be judged faithful, you have to 425 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:10,116 Speaker 6: have kept these rules and even to the point where 426 00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 6: if you break one of the rules, you can ask forgiveness. 427 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 6: But the way that it felt as a kid was 428 00:26:17,076 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 6: if you fell out of an airplane and you said 429 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:21,076 Speaker 6: a cuss word on the way down, and you didn't 430 00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 6: have a chance to repent of that word before you 431 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:28,916 Speaker 6: hit the ground, then you might your soul might be 432 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 6: lost to the da Nation for Eternity. 433 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,236 Speaker 1: When Lee Kemp said I have loved my church and 434 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:38,676 Speaker 1: I have hated my church, this was the part he hated. 435 00:26:41,756 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's interesting that you said. You know, 436 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 1: when we think, when we imagine what is going through 437 00:26:47,556 --> 00:26:51,676 Speaker 1: the mind of someone who's marriage is in trouble, who 438 00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:56,916 Speaker 1: is in love with another woman, one possible interpretation is 439 00:26:58,116 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: that their motivation is genuine in the sense that they 440 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:03,916 Speaker 1: have fallen out of love with their wife and in 441 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:07,236 Speaker 1: love with someone else and see the possibility for a 442 00:27:07,276 --> 00:27:11,036 Speaker 1: greater happiness and are willing to do or a certain 443 00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:14,716 Speaker 1: amount of pain and heartbreak to get to that greater happiness. 444 00:27:15,356 --> 00:27:19,636 Speaker 1: But that's not I'm not imagining that's what it is. 445 00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: It's he is in love with another woman and is 446 00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:27,516 Speaker 1: consumed with shame over his predicament. 447 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:30,676 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there's certainly, so far as his church 448 00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:34,516 Speaker 5: context would be concerned, there's no viable route to a 449 00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 5: greater happiness with the other woman, because it's simply not 450 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:42,556 Speaker 5: going to be permitted unless you leave the community that 451 00:27:42,636 --> 00:27:45,756 Speaker 5: you probably think it is the community that you have 452 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 5: to be a part of if you're not going to 453 00:27:47,196 --> 00:27:51,796 Speaker 5: go to hell. I mean, it's that's simple. Really Again, 454 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 5: I don't want to speculate about what he's thinking, but 455 00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:58,436 Speaker 5: I would conjecture, given all that we know, you know 456 00:27:58,516 --> 00:28:01,396 Speaker 5: that I know about that experience, that there's it would 457 00:28:01,396 --> 00:28:03,276 Speaker 5: be plausible that something like that's going on. 458 00:28:04,276 --> 00:28:10,316 Speaker 1: You know, Which is a which is he's in a 459 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:12,956 Speaker 1: terrifying for him, a terrifying place. 460 00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 5: Sure, as I'm sure was his wife. There was this 461 00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 5: joke that said that it was easier to get forgiveness 462 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 5: in the Church of Christ for murdering somebody than it 463 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 5: was to be divorced. 464 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:40,676 Speaker 1: There is a proverb that dates back to the Middle 465 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: Ages that I'm sure you've heard in one version or another, 466 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:46,956 Speaker 1: for want of a nail. The shoe was lost for 467 00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:49,436 Speaker 1: want of a shoe. The horse was lost for want 468 00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 1: of a horse. The rider was lost for want of 469 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:54,116 Speaker 1: a rider. The message was lost for want of a message. 470 00:28:54,156 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 1: The battle was lost for want of a battle. The 471 00:28:56,916 --> 00:29:00,116 Speaker 1: kingdom was lost all for the want of a nail. 472 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:04,236 Speaker 1: The proverb of a lost nail is what's called a 473 00:29:04,236 --> 00:29:08,396 Speaker 1: failure cascade. One small misstep or mishap leads to a 474 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:12,516 Speaker 1: second big problem, and a third even bigger problem, and finally, 475 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:19,556 Speaker 1: at the end of the chain catastrophe. The Northeastern blackout 476 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: in August of two thousand and three, one of the 477 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:25,956 Speaker 1: biggest blackouts in history, was a failure cascade. A couple 478 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:28,756 Speaker 1: of trees on the East Lake transmission line outside of 479 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:32,116 Speaker 1: Cleveland grew a little bit too tall, and the electrical 480 00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 1: line at that precise moment, perhaps because of the summer heat, 481 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:38,436 Speaker 1: sagged a little bit more than usual and touched the trees. 482 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: The contact caused a short. The short caused the power 483 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: that used to run along that line to be rerouted 484 00:29:45,076 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 1: along another line, which overloaded that line, causing an even 485 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,876 Speaker 1: bigger electrical surge to be rerouted to another line, and 486 00:29:52,956 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 1: on an on, leading to a series of failures that 487 00:29:55,956 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: rippled across the entire Northeastern grid, leaving fifty million people 488 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:06,796 Speaker 1: without electricity. For want of a chainsaw, the power was lost. 489 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: The Alabama murders is about a classic failure cascade. Only 490 00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:19,556 Speaker 1: were the ever widening ripples were caused not by mechanical 491 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: or institutional defects, but failures of character, of justice, of compassion. 492 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 1: Coming up on the Alabama murders, that. 493 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:51,636 Speaker 8: The viciousness was there that he could do something like that, 494 00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:52,396 Speaker 8: I don't know. 495 00:30:53,276 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 6: I entered the call, and I got all the information 496 00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:00,716 Speaker 6: on who done it, who was all involved in all 497 00:31:00,756 --> 00:31:01,756 Speaker 6: the particulars. 498 00:31:02,356 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 4: It was having an affair with a parishioner. There were 499 00:31:07,076 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 4: seventy people that went to that church. How did they 500 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:12,156 Speaker 4: not know that this was going on. 501 00:31:13,636 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 7: I don't know which one of them, Kilber, I really don't. 502 00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:20,076 Speaker 2: And I think both of them got what they probably 503 00:31:20,116 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 2: deserved legally and morally. 504 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:26,796 Speaker 6: And at the time, we had had an execution from 505 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 6: now Alabama for a very long time. 506 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:31,556 Speaker 4: And I said, sure, Well, you know, I didn't know 507 00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 4: what I was getting in through what is taught either 508 00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 4: at nursing school or as an emt or as a doctor. 509 00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:41,396 Speaker 1: Cannot be lifted into the death chamber, like it's not 510 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:42,796 Speaker 1: the same place. 511 00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:46,196 Speaker 3: He would say to himself, Turn to the right, to 512 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:49,236 Speaker 3: the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left, tell 513 00:31:49,276 --> 00:31:50,836 Speaker 3: my family, I love him. So he would have this 514 00:31:50,836 --> 00:31:53,916 Speaker 3: little practice to the right, I'm sorry, to the left, 515 00:31:54,036 --> 00:31:54,436 Speaker 3: I love you. 516 00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 1: Provision's history is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Bend A. Daff Hyffrey, 517 00:32:05,796 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. Additional reporting by bend ad aff 518 00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 1: Haffrey and Lee Hedgepeth. Our editor is Karen Chukerji, fact 519 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: checking by Kate Furby. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. 520 00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:21,716 Speaker 1: Production support from Luke Clemond, Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, 521 00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:25,916 Speaker 1: Original scoring by Luis Guerra with Paul Brainard and Jimmy Bodd. 522 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:38,156 Speaker 1: Sound design and additional music by Jake Gorsky. I'm Malcolm Glaba.