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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin, and today we want to share with

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Speaker 1: you an interview with Lorie L. Tharpes, who's an assistant

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Speaker 1: professor of journalism at Temple University. She's also an award

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Speaker 1: winning author, freelance journalist, and the speaker. And this is

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Speaker 1: somewhat of an addendum to the podcast that we did

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Speaker 1: a little while back, a fan favorite already all about

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Speaker 1: curly hair, and while we talked about black hair in

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Speaker 1: that podcast, we mentioned that there was so much that

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Speaker 1: we could talk about that we wanted to come back

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Speaker 1: and do an entire episode on that. And this is

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Speaker 1: that episode because Lori L. Tharpes, along with Iana Bird,

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Speaker 1: literally wrote the book on black hair in America. H right.

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Speaker 1: It's called Hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black Hair

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Speaker 1: in America, and it was originally published back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand two and reprinted in January of this year. And

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Speaker 1: we wanted to hear from an expert on the topic.

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's bring you the interview with

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Speaker 1: Lorie Tharp's. Could you just first introduce who you are?

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Speaker 1: And how you and co author Ayanna Dee Bird decided

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Speaker 1: to write in an update hair story untangling the roots

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Speaker 1: of black hair in America. Sure, my, I guess I

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Speaker 1: described myself as an author, professor, writer, and mom. Um,

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Speaker 1: all of those Um, all those descriptions really um define me.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, I wouldn't be a writer if

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Speaker 1: I wasn't a mother, I wouldn't be a professor if

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Speaker 1: I wanted a writer. UM, I feel like everything I

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Speaker 1: do is really intertwined with who I am as an individual.

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Speaker 1: Will so like my my professional world really does reflect

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Speaker 1: my passions and my interests and UM as a writer,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Also so when I was actually in graduate school,

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Speaker 1: I went to Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and

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Speaker 1: the kind of highlight of the program is choosing a

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Speaker 1: topic that you will report on for an entire year

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Speaker 1: for your master's thesis. And UM, the professor's always made

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Speaker 1: it clear that you better choose a topic that um

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Speaker 1: will keep you interested for a year, you know, because

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Speaker 1: there's nothing worse than having to report on something that

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Speaker 1: doesn't interest you or bores you after a while. So

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Speaker 1: it took me a while, but I eventually decided that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to write about black hair because it just

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Speaker 1: seemed to me that there was something very different about

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Speaker 1: black hair in the United States when compared with you know,

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Speaker 1: white people's hair, if you will. It seemed that, UM,

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Speaker 1: black hair was always making people um, making non black

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Speaker 1: people you know, ask questions or or you know, have

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Speaker 1: strange ideas about it, like they didn't understand black hair. Um.

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Speaker 1: Within the black community, there were so many kind of

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Speaker 1: superstitions and beliefs and almost conversations that were constant about

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Speaker 1: our hair that I thought that there had to be

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Speaker 1: more to it than just something cosmetic. And um, I

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Speaker 1: that's what I decided to do. And my professor at

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Speaker 1: the time at Columbia was very skeptical that there was

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Speaker 1: something to say about black hair beyond, you know, a

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Speaker 1: personal essay, and she warmed me repeatedly that I was

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Speaker 1: going to fail if I chose that as a topic.

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Speaker 1: But when I actually handed my paper in at the

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Speaker 1: end of the year, not only did um she changed

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Speaker 1: her mind, but she actually invited me over to her

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Speaker 1: home and said that she you know, apologized and said

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Speaker 1: she was just overwhelmed with how how deep and complex

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Speaker 1: and interesting black hair really was, and that she not

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Speaker 1: only thought that herself, but she photocopied might work and

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Speaker 1: gave it to a friend who was about to It

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Speaker 1: was a white end who was about to adopt a

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Speaker 1: black child, so because she thought that she needed to

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Speaker 1: know this information. And then she told me, you know,

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Speaker 1: you should turn us into a book. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: you know, just as a recent graduate student, I thought

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Speaker 1: a book, what, that's crazy, overwhelming. I just want to

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Speaker 1: find a job and move on with my life. But

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Speaker 1: as it turned out, when I my first job was

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Speaker 1: at five magazine, and I sat next to thee on

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Speaker 1: the bird and she had done a similar topic as

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Speaker 1: an undergraduate um for her honors thesis. She too had

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Speaker 1: written about black hair. She too had had a professor

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Speaker 1: who doubted that she could write anything more than a

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Speaker 1: personal essay, who then at the end, when she handed

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Speaker 1: it in um, he was also encouraged her to turn

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Speaker 1: it into a book. And so here we were sitting

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Speaker 1: next to each other when the person who hired us

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Speaker 1: both said, did you know you both have this weird

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Speaker 1: fascination with black hair? And so that led us to talking.

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Speaker 1: One thing led to another, and we said, let's write

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Speaker 1: a book. Together. UM, let's combine our two projects. My

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Speaker 1: project had looked at the history, um politics, and business

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Speaker 1: of black hair, and she had looked more at the

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Speaker 1: sociological aspects of black hair in popular culture. And so

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Speaker 1: that's what we did, is we took our you know,

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Speaker 1: our two interests and you know, dove even deeper into

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Speaker 1: the topic and came up with Hair Story in two

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Speaker 1: thousand one. And then, um, you know, both of us

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Speaker 1: were magazine writers and that we were at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of our career when the book first came out. And then,

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Speaker 1: you know, twelve years later, we decided to update the

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Speaker 1: book simply because everything that goes on in American popular

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Speaker 1: culture as it relates to black hair is so fascinating

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Speaker 1: and more and more UM issues were coming up every

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Speaker 1: day where we felt people were still wanting us to

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Speaker 1: talk about the book, but we had to keep adding

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Speaker 1: information because um new things were happening. And the most,

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Speaker 1: the most um prevalent thing, the biggest change in the

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Speaker 1: world of black hair was the Internet. The Internet changed

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Speaker 1: the entire black hair game. UM just as it changed

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Speaker 1: popular culture, it really had a significant an impact and

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Speaker 1: how black women around the world could interact with one another,

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Speaker 1: finally about the haircare regimens as well as product style,

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Speaker 1: and just this kind of community was built that never

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Speaker 1: existed before. And the from a financial standpoint, you had

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Speaker 1: a lot of black women entrepreneurs who were able to

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Speaker 1: launch products because they could distribute them via the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Whereas before they could maybe you know, give them to

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Speaker 1: a few friends or sell them at a flea market.

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Speaker 1: Now they could be international distributors, with the Internet now

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Speaker 1: allowing them access to, you know, a worldwide audience. So

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Speaker 1: that's why we decided to update the book in two thousand. Um.

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Speaker 1: It actually came out in two thousand fourteen. Um. We

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Speaker 1: decided to update it because so much had happened and

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Speaker 1: people now say, you know what, what's next. We figure

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Speaker 1: in another decade, we'll probably have to update it again because, um,

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Speaker 1: whether we're talking the business of black hair or the social, social,

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Speaker 1: socio political aspect of black hair, and not just American

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Speaker 1: popular culture, but now and internationally, things keep happening. So

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Speaker 1: we just keep writing, Well, it seems like there is

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Speaker 1: a tendency in white society kind of going back to

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Speaker 1: the story you're telling about your professor and just sort

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Speaker 1: of her eyes being open to how much there is

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Speaker 1: to talk about when it comes to black hair. It

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Speaker 1: seems like there's a tendency to talk about African hair

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Speaker 1: black hair in monolithic terms, as if it all has

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Speaker 1: the exact same texture, appearance, preferred styling. And I was

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Speaker 1: just wondering if you could talk about how it's quite

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Speaker 1: the opposite in reality, going back for centuries in Africa,

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Speaker 1: it was actually the differences among people's hair that's been

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Speaker 1: part of what you called a complex language system in

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Speaker 1: the book. Yes, Um, it's interesting because um as we are,

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Speaker 1: you know, firmly into the twenty one century in the

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Speaker 1: business world of black hair talking about salon owners, stylists, UM,

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Speaker 1: hair care man, you know, manufacturers, that the word that

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Speaker 1: they are now using, it's kind of I mean, the

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Speaker 1: buzzword now is to talk about textures of hair is

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Speaker 1: as opposed to race hair. Racially talking about hair, um,

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Speaker 1: it almost sounds I mean when you talk about it clinically,

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Speaker 1: it almost sounds silly to say black hair products because

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Speaker 1: every black person doesn't have the same kind of hair,

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Speaker 1: just like every white person doesn't have the same kind

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Speaker 1: of hair. UM. And it used to be unfortunately, like

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Speaker 1: if you went to the you know, the drug store,

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Speaker 1: the target wherever, and you looked at the hair shampoo aisles,

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Speaker 1: of course you would find rows and rows of you know,

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Speaker 1: shampoo for color, treated hair, for limp, fine hair, for

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Speaker 1: dry hair. I mean, white people had an array of

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Speaker 1: options to find the product that was really meant for

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Speaker 1: their hair volume izing products, you know, all different types.

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Speaker 1: And yet then there was black hair products, as if

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Speaker 1: there was one type of black hair. Um we quoted

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Speaker 1: talked to you, um Anthony Dicky, who is a celebrity

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Speaker 1: stylist who now has his own range of products called

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Speaker 1: hair Rules, and he likened it to make up, which

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Speaker 1: he's like, it's funny because obviously there are multiple shades

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Speaker 1: of makeup because everybody comes in different shades of skin.

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Speaker 1: There isn't one white um foundation, right, There's multiple variations.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, people should think of hair in the

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Speaker 1: same way that there are multiple variations of hair types,

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Speaker 1: whether that's in the white community or the black community.

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Speaker 1: Black hair isn't all the same, especially when you think

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Speaker 1: about the origins of Black Americans. Most Black Americans have

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Speaker 1: I mean they are you know, everybody has African blood

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Speaker 1: in them, but they have various different um ratios of

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Speaker 1: white blood in them also as well as Native American

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Speaker 1: and so the idea that their hair is all gonna

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Speaker 1: be the same is preposterous. Um. And again it's just

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Speaker 1: like eight Americans as well. There's just not one single

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Speaker 1: type of black hair. So, um, all black hair doesn't

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Speaker 1: look the same, just like all black people don't look

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Speaker 1: the same. And that's you know, it's kind of just

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Speaker 1: a biological fact that people seem to forget because the

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Speaker 1: concept of race is an invented concept, so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really hold true when you talk about black hair because

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Speaker 1: Black people are such a diverse people biologically. Well. One

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Speaker 1: thing that jumped out to me in the book as well,

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Speaker 1: because we did a podcast a few months back now

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Speaker 1: on the history of hair salons and beauty parlors in

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Speaker 1: the US, And one thing that you noted earlier in

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Speaker 1: the book is that the hairdresser always held a special

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Speaker 1: place in community life, and that was in reference to

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Speaker 1: um hairdressers actually in Africa centrac Ago. And so I

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Speaker 1: was wondering if the hairdresser continues to hold a special

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Speaker 1: place in black community life today in the US, and

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Speaker 1: if so, how The short answer is absolutely absolutely. And

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Speaker 1: you know, and one of the things that we wanted

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Speaker 1: to why. You know, people always ask us, well, did

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Speaker 1: you write this book for black people or did you

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Speaker 1: write this book for white people? And it's clearly a

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Speaker 1: book for all people, because um, you'll, I mean, some

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Speaker 1: of the things that we wanted to emphasize is how much,

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Speaker 1: how familiar, and how similar some of the things that

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Speaker 1: you know, the black, black hair, black American hair culture

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Speaker 1: has with any other culture in that um, you know,

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Speaker 1: your your salon, your style list is almost like a

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Speaker 1: can almost be like a part of your family or

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Speaker 1: the family doctor. I remember, you know, years ago, there

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Speaker 1: was an OPRAH episode dedicated to how to break up

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Speaker 1: with your stylists because it was such a traumatic thing

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Speaker 1: to do because that relationship was so strong, and that

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Speaker 1: wasn't just for black people. But the reason, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and this is where the you know, that's the similar

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Speaker 1: is that I think most women who have a permanent

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Speaker 1: stylists have a very special relationship with that person, but

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Speaker 1: within the black community. And and you're absolutely right, and

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Speaker 1: that's you know, one of the things. We also tried

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Speaker 1: to establish the connections from African traditions in you know,

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Speaker 1: from the fifteenth century and beyond. Um, that carry on

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Speaker 1: through today and absolutely that you know, historically, in African

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Speaker 1: cultures West African cultures where most African Americans trace their history,

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Speaker 1: every community UM had their own designated hairdresser and that

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Speaker 1: person was a very highly like valued in UM, not worshiped,

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Speaker 1: but UM highly regarded person of the community. So you

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Speaker 1: didn't just let anybody touch your hair. You only let

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Speaker 1: the designated hairdresser touch your hair. And usually that was

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Speaker 1: a position that was passed down, So a mother would

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Speaker 1: pass that roll down to her daughter and we teach

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Speaker 1: her all of the things she needed to know about

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Speaker 1: her about the crap the hairstyling. And it wasn't because

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Speaker 1: they were just combing and washing hair. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you know anything or saw any uh hairstyles in traditional

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Speaker 1: African societies, they were very elaborate. They meant a lot.

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Speaker 1: A person's hairstyles said everything about them, meaning it would

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Speaker 1: tell you what family you would belong to, what place

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Speaker 1: in society you had, whether you were married not married,

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Speaker 1: whether you were going to war, whether you were in mourning.

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Speaker 1: So a person who was designated hairstyles had to know

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Speaker 1: all of these styles for their particular community that they

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Speaker 1: were catering. To so today um and also because black

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Speaker 1: hair genuinely takes more time to um style to manage,

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Speaker 1: then I would say I'd say average, like I would

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Speaker 1: say white hair styles in general, not I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's some very elaborate white hairstyles, but in general,

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Speaker 1: it takes time, i mean sometimes even days. So historically

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Speaker 1: that was a time when women would, you know, cultivate

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Speaker 1: friendships was during hairtime, you know, when hairstyles were being done,

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Speaker 1: and even today, because a black woman who's going to

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Speaker 1: go into the salon nine times out of ten, she's

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Speaker 1: gonna be in there for more than thirty four or

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Speaker 1: five minutes. She could be there two hours, and depending

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Speaker 1: on the the style she's getting, she could be in

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Speaker 1: there four or five, six, seven times even eight hours.

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Speaker 1: So one just spending that much time with anybody, you

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Speaker 1: would hope you could have something to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: also there is this still this very strong sense of

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Speaker 1: community building happening within the um beauty salons and barbershops

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Speaker 1: as well. But the other thing that happens in the

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Speaker 1: black beauty parlors traditionally is not just talking about hair

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Speaker 1: or women's issues, but it's also been a place where

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Speaker 1: um revolutionary activity would happen, where people would talk about

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Speaker 1: civil rights UM issues, where people would plan for to

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Speaker 1: do um any kinds of like community justice work. UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of times um it interesting things were happening

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Speaker 1: and planned in the beauty salon because they were considered

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Speaker 1: safe spaces almost like churches and um pull up public

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Speaker 1: authority figures, police or whoever else wouldn't go into the

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Speaker 1: beauty parlor because one, they would discount women as actually

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Speaker 1: able to plot any kind of act you know, revolutionary activity.

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Speaker 1: But too because it seemed like a a you know,

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Speaker 1: something dedicated to beauty, so you wouldn't be talking about

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Speaker 1: anything of significance. So the beauty parlor has always been

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Speaker 1: this kind of safe, sacred space for black women to Again,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna spend a lot of time there, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: put a lot of trust in the woman who's who

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Speaker 1: is tasked with doing your hair. But also it's been

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Speaker 1: this kind of buffer zone from the outside world where

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Speaker 1: black women can part of the pun but let their

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Speaker 1: hair down and be themselves. Well, and it seems like

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Speaker 1: too as long as women need to get their hair done,

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Speaker 1: which will be forever, let's then that place in the

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Speaker 1: community will always be there, which is kind of incredible

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Speaker 1: to think about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there there's you know,

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Speaker 1: because we look at hair from all different angles. We

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Speaker 1: also look at the financial aspects the economy of the

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Speaker 1: black hair care industry, and that is one area literally

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Speaker 1: since ante bellum times, before slavery, black people have been

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Speaker 1: very successful in UM, in the salon and barbershop industry UM,

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Speaker 1: and that industry has been you know, even during UH

285
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Speaker 1: when slavery was still in effect, many black men were barbers,

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Speaker 1: and but they were UM treating, they were servicing white people,

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Speaker 1: not Black people, and became very successful and then turned

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Speaker 1: around and used that money though to uplift the black community,

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Speaker 1: to buy their family members out of slavery, to create

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Speaker 1: schools and UM community organizations for black uplift, so that

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Speaker 1: that UM trend continued, you know, even post slavery and

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Speaker 1: when the black barbers were actually servicing black clients and

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Speaker 1: salant owners as well. So today, when we have things

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Speaker 1: that seem wonderful like blow dry bars and brain bars

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Speaker 1: and um others UM you know, quick, fast and easy,

296
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Speaker 1: just too many people, that's great because everybody you know

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Speaker 1: who has enough, who has time, to spend three hours

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Speaker 1: in the beauty beauty parlor. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of you know, you'll see some black people

300
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Speaker 1: become very um, defensive or alarmed by the kind of

301
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Speaker 1: fast paced way that is taking over the salon business

302
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Speaker 1: because historically this has been not just a place to

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Speaker 1: get your hair done, but it's been a community center.

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Speaker 1: So that is definitely something that UM is is of

305
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Speaker 1: concern in the black community. Is what happens if the

306
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Speaker 1: the you know, the thirty minute or the blow dry

307
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Speaker 1: bar or the braid bar you know, starts in and

308
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Speaker 1: to take over the the kind of community salon that

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Speaker 1: you know has been part of the community for years. Well,

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Speaker 1: if we go back, UM in US history to the

311
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Speaker 1: era of slavery, um, one thing that you talked about

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Speaker 1: in the book is how white slave owning Americans used

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Speaker 1: African hair as a justification for slavery, which I think

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Speaker 1: is something that a lot of people don't realize. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just starting if you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, So again it's in our twenty one

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Speaker 1: century ears and eyes. It just seems like it seems

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Speaker 1: like crazy to think about this, like to think that

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Speaker 1: this was something that could be done, but you see

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Speaker 1: the results today in that um you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the most important ways to make sure you kept the

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Speaker 1: population of people enslaved, not just physically but mentally so

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Speaker 1: that they would think of themselves as inferior, so that

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Speaker 1: they would have less less chances of um rebelling if

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Speaker 1: you will, which you know didn't really work completely, but

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Speaker 1: it kept you know, a large amount of people feeling

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Speaker 1: themselves inferior, which by um insinuating and actually legally declaring

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Speaker 1: the African race to be inferior. And the way they

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Speaker 1: did that was to um assign you know, the physical

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Speaker 1: the attributes that made Africans different from white people, for example,

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Speaker 1: their hair, were to label them as more like animalistic

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Speaker 1: than human. So the hair, you know, black hair wasn't

333
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Speaker 1: referred to as hair. It was referred to as wool

334
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Speaker 1: or for or animal like, such that Black people began

335
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Speaker 1: to really believe that there was something inherently inferior or

336
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 1: wrong with their natural hair, you know, the hair that

337
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: grew out of their heads. So from a very early

338
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Speaker 1: point in their arrival in the America's and the Caribbean

339
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: was to try to alter their hair because it was

340
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Speaker 1: constantly referred to as not just inferior, but ugly and animalistic,

341
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Speaker 1: so frarier. Very early on in um plantation life, you

342
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Speaker 1: saw all kinds of ingenious ways to try to straighten

343
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Speaker 1: their hair. If not straighten it, then at least try

344
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Speaker 1: to mimic the white hairstyles, which a lot of people

345
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 1: were wearing wigs, so even to mimic the wigs that UM,

346
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,640
Speaker 1: and this was both men and women, so that there

347
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: couldn't be this continuous debasing of their individual cells by

348
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: slave owners to um, you know, to cast them as inferior,

349
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 1: so that kind of they're The African people loved their

350
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Speaker 1: hair and worship their hair and felt their hair to

351
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: be truly a part of their identity before before being

352
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 1: um kidnapped and enslaved. But as soon as they were

353
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 1: brought to this country as well as to you know,

354
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: South America, the Caribbean UM again, the hair quickly became

355
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 1: that thing because it is malleable um that they tried

356
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: to change and make in the image of their European

357
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: captors so that they wouldn't be denigrated in that way.

358
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Speaker 1: Men often shave their heads because it was such a

359
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Speaker 1: sign of blackness that they figured if they got rid

360
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Speaker 1: of it. That was one way to get rid of

361
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Speaker 1: this kind of badge of of inferiority. So that is

362
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Speaker 1: the you know, that is one of the reasons why

363
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 1: even today we still have work to do to claim

364
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: or reclaim the beauty of our own natural hair, because

365
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: for so long it was deemed inferior, ugly and animalistic.

366
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: I mean, even if it's funny, because even if you

367
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: look at you know, what would be a seemingly innocuous

368
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: description of a black person, you would see, you know,

369
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: they would describe their skin, their face, whatever, like on

370
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 1: a maybe a slave a fugitive slave poster, or even

371
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: just a description in a you know, a magazine or something,

372
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Speaker 1: and the way white people would write thea and her

373
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Speaker 1: wool was styled this way. I mean it was scientifically,

374
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: even the scientific community was calling it woolf So, I mean,

375
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: it was so endemic into the culture that it would

376
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: be a real testament of mental strength to not fall

377
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: prey to the belief that somehow you were your hair

378
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: was what made you inferior. Well, and it seems like

379
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,719
Speaker 1: one of the earliest manifestations of that internalizing of that

380
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: rampant racism at the time is this designation between good

381
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Speaker 1: hair versus bad hair, and the good hair being you know,

382
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: the straighter, the better. And so I was wondering if

383
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: it seems like the good hair bad hair designations have

384
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: been largely uprooted today from Black culture, or if traces

385
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: of them still remain, if there is still that internalizing

386
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: process going on. I wish that I could say that,

387
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: you know, ten years after the original book came out,

388
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: that good hair bad hair just the thing in the past,

389
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it's not. It's still very much part of

390
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: the vocabulary, UM and culture in the black community. And

391
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 1: and in this updated version, we really kind of looked

392
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: beyond the Black American community and we're you know, sad

393
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: to find out that this is you know, we just

394
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: came back from a or what we call our European tour.

395
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: We were in London, London, France, let's say, London, and Holland,

396
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: UM and spoke to people from you know, all over

397
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: the continent, and that good hair bad hair is even

398
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: UM used in other parts of the world as well

399
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: as in UM. Latin America, Paolo Bueno, Palo malo is

400
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: also terms that are still very much in use, and

401
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: UM it really is just I mean, you we thought

402
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: when we went into this that this would be terms

403
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: that were only used by older generations because you know,

404
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: how they grew up. But of course older generations are

405
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: the ones that are bringing up the younger generations, and

406
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: they're still using terms like good hair and bad hair.

407
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: And what we're seeing sometimes where people might stop saying

408
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: good hair bad hair because they know how damaging. And

409
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: we're saying this within the black community, um that you know,

410
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: people will know that's just not could you know, we've

411
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: got to stop. We we have to stop using these

412
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: terms ourselves. But then we're getting euphemisms. You know, a

413
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about the um designations of it.

414
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: There's these new like terminology to to decide what kind

415
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: of hair you have with these one sees to four seas.

416
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard about that, but it's

417
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: a curl pattern designation or and people will talk about

418
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: wanting to have to be three B hair because that's

419
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: the more loosely curled hair as opposed to really kinky hair.

420
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: Um or people talk about grades of hair. So there's

421
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: still even if people aren't using good hair and bad hair,

422
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: which they are, I mean you still hear it. But

423
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: people are getting savvy about not saying good hair and

424
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: bad hair because that's you know, kind of antiquated, and

425
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: we know we're not supposed to say things like that.

426
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: But the euphemisms are still their nice hair, uh, Indian

427
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: hair to be hair, whatever it is, um, it's still um.

428
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: The concepts are still very much a part of the culture,

429
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: and we're still trying to break free of the idea

430
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: that everybody's hair should be or that we all want

431
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: hair that looks like you know, it's not even about

432
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: wanting to look white, and that should be very much clarified.

433
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: It's not about, oh, I want my hair to be

434
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: long and blonde. It's more like, I want my hair

435
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: to look like if I were biracial and had mixed hair,

436
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: which was the hair that would signify to UM slave

437
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: owners that this was a more worthwhile and more useful

438
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: and more valuable slave because basically, uh, white people slave

439
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: owners really believed that race was biological. So if if

440
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: an African or a slave had more white blood in them,

441
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: they were potentially um smarter. You know, they could learn more,

442
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: they could do more, you could train them, you could

443
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: have them in the house and have them running your household.

444
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: Actually they were more intelligent because they had white, more

445
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: white blood in them. So this good hair bad hare

446
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: really was not about a beauty issue to start. It

447
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: really was this idea that you were a superior being

448
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: if you had more attributes, you had more physical attributes,

449
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: which would mean more white blood running through you. And

450
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: that was again a very deliver for its separating of

451
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: the black population because if you kept, if you kept

452
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: the black people themselves kind of add odd with each other,

453
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: it was again easier to keep them from rising up

454
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: as a group and rebelling. So the good hair was

455
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: enforced by whites and then reinforced by the black community

456
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: themselves because the lighter ones, the ones with the light

457
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: lighter skin and looser curled hair, we're getting better treatment

458
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um. And that then put

459
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: a division within the black community itself. So you have

460
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: this perpetual reinforcement of that concept that the better, the

461
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: looser your hair, the more resembled kind of white European hair,

462
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: all of these benefits were bestowed upon you. So and

463
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: that wasn't like one or two people. That was an

464
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: entire population, and again not just in the US, but

465
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: all throughout the places where Africans were enslaved by white Europeans.

466
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: So it's gonna take a lot more than you know,

467
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: the natural hair movement, which is doing great work in

468
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: terms of UM making people realize just how wonderful their

469
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: own natural hair is. UM. So that was a really

470
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: long answer to say that, yes, we're still using good

471
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: and bad hair terms and it's not gone from the community. Well,

472
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: that's something that has persisted since the original publication of Hairstory.

473
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: What has been the biggest development you've seen, you know,

474
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: between two thousand one and now in terms of natural

475
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: hair and American culture. Well, the biggest, I mean, the real,

476
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the huge, giant kind of thing that made

477
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: all the difference was the Internet, which I think I

478
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, but you know, the Internet was simply the

479
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: medium that allowed movement to blossom, which is really really

480
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: the reason we had to update the book because the

481
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: natural hair movement, which UM has you know, both the

482
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: ON and I are hesitant when people want us to

483
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: define it. What is this movement because there's no leader,

484
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's no doctrine, there's no Bible, there's no

485
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, official membership card to be a member of

486
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: the movement. Um. Nonetheless, the idea, you know, the energy

487
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: behind it has definitely been, um, kind of a grassroots

488
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: energy coming from black and around the United States who

489
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: have decided to stop straightening their hair with chemicals. And

490
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: I make that distinction because we'll get to that in

491
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: a second. But the idea that people are not just um,

492
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: you know, not for some sort of political statement as

493
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: it were in the sixties, where it was a real

494
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: political statement and you know, there was a real you know,

495
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, the AFRO was really a part

496
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: of the political protest, whereas today in the you know,

497
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: early two thousands, we saw women, black women, very very

498
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: deliberately deciding to stop straightening their hair, not as a

499
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: political movement as much as it was a beauty decision,

500
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: which makes it political and revolutionary in ways, Um, because

501
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: it was people saying, I can still be beautiful, and

502
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: I am no longer of the belief that the only

503
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: way my hair is beautiful and pretty and fun and

504
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: acceptable and sexy and attractive if it's straight. Um. That

505
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: is a revolutionary thought for black female in the United States.

506
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: And so what we see is not just you know,

507
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: women here and there taking their hair out and wearing

508
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: it in an afro. But we're seeing an entire new

509
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: language and lexicon and styling options of black women UM

510
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: wearing their hair and actural styles and having fun with

511
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: it and not again like I'm wearing an afro to

512
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: make a serious political statement, but I'm wearing a twist

513
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: out or I'm doing you know again. There's styles that

514
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: were never heard of, and the beauty of it is

515
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: that there are products. Now there's a whole new kind

516
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: of culture around natural hair that is not political. It's

517
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: completely beauty UM motivated. So UM that I think is

518
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: the biggest change is that you have UM. You can

519
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: look online and go see you know, thousands of hair

520
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: tutorial videos, UM YouTube channels, blogs, websites where you can

521
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: get information and information about, you know, how to do

522
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: certain styles, and you can get UM communities talking about

523
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: just products that they're using. You can go on a

524
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: cruise ship and talk about your natural hair and how

525
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: much fun it is UM. And you even have people

526
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: who will, you know, if if you are discriminated against

527
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: at work, you will have an entire online community supporting

528
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: you to the point where you may you know, get

529
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: your job back because there is such a vocal chorus

530
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: of people supporting any black woman who decides to go

531
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: to go natural. And again the industry is rising up

532
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: around it to say, remember how it was saying before,

533
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: how black hair crowd, black haircaracter products used to be

534
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: just that one thing, as if black hair was all

535
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: the same. Now you can go into any kind of

536
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: mainstream store um, I mean like a whole foods target

537
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: um and find products that are meant not just for

538
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: one type of black hair, but multiple textures of black hair.

539
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: And the products aren't in one kind of all brown

540
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: bottle on the bottom shelf. They're beautifully packaged, they smell lovely.

541
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: They allow black women to get involved into the beauty

542
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: rituals that have been denied them for so long because

543
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: we were supposedly all a monolithic group who had one

544
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: type of hair and didn't spend the time, you know,

545
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: playing with our natural hair um and seeing all the

546
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: different things it could do. And so the community started

547
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: doing this on their own, and industry, both manufacturers of

548
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: products and salons have risen up to support them. And

549
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: there's even a whole new um industry that has risen

550
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: up around the natural hair movement, which is the natural

551
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: hair meetup. And like I was not joking about a cruise.

552
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: You can go on a cruise, you can have parties.

553
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: There's natural hair parties, meetups, cruises, um uh, conventions. There's

554
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: a whole industry around this idea that black women are

555
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: um excited about their natural hair. And and while that

556
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: to a non black person that might seem excessive, like

557
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: why is anybody so obsessed about their hair? And it's

558
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: because you have. It's almost an entirely different Um. It's

559
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: a whole new experience to actually play with your natural hair,

560
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: to know what it does. Because for generations and generations,

561
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: black women have been putting chemicals on their hair and

562
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: straightening it and believing that that was what their hair

563
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: looked like. And it's like I'm trying to think of

564
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: a an equivalent of what a white person might experience. Um, Okay,

565
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: here's a good example. If you have been overweight your

566
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: entire life and you go on a diet that actually works,

567
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: I mean something that really feels good. You go on

568
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: a diet or exercise and exercise plan, and you have

569
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: a whole new you know, feeling about yourself and you

570
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: actually look different, you would be. You'd probably be like one,

571
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: you'd go by different clothes for yourself, you'd want to

572
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: talk to people because it would just be like I

573
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: have never I never knew that, you know, life with

574
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: life is as a skinny person, Like I never knew

575
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: that exercising so much fun. I never knew that, you know,

576
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: I'd be going on all these dates because men would

577
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: find me attractive with you know, being skinny. Right for

578
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: black women, for them to suddenly have the whole different

579
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: experience with their hair, that's almost what it's. I'm trying

580
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: to think of something that you would be able to,

581
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: you know, relate this to, because it's like I never

582
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: knew my hair could do this, like I always thought,

583
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, for so long, black women were told like,

584
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: you have to keep your hair straightened because if you don't,

585
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: it's just unmanageable. It's ugly, it would be just a mess.

586
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: You know, it would just be unattractive. And then you

587
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: see on YouTube somebody whose hair looks like yours does

588
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: so you try it and then you find out, wow,

589
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: I didn't know my hair did this. I had no

590
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: idea my hair could you know, curl in this way

591
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: or I could style it that way and she's attractive

592
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: and I could be attractive like that. Like it's a

593
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: it's literally a revolutionary concept for women to to see

594
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: their hair that's they've been told. I mean, it's like

595
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: psychically in their psychic history that their hair is naturally ugly.

596
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh my god, it's not. It's not

597
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: only is it not ugly, it's pretty and it's fun

598
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: and I can buy nice products for it and and

599
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: I can you know, I'm I'm. It's for a lot

600
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: of black women once they go natural, it almost feels

601
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: like they're like born again Christians or something like that,

602
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: because they're so excited by this information that it seems

603
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: that have been denied to them for so long, which

604
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: it has. So there's a real sense of excitement enthusiasm

605
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: about this natural hair move meant because again you've got

606
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: years and years and years and years of people telling

607
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: you one thing and then you discover the truth. So

608
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: there is a bit of zeal it. Uh zealousness is

609
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: that I think the word you know, to the to

610
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: this movement and um that I think is the most

611
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: exciting thing to see. And it's what's really is exciting

612
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: is to see that it's happening, not just in the

613
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: United States. But we, like I said, we went to London,

614
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: we went to Amsterdam, Um, we talked, we were speaking Paris,

615
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: that we were really talking to a lot of people

616
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: in Paris as well as in Switzerland even and seeing

617
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: the kind of excitement that this is spreading. Because what's

618
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: happening in the US. People look at the US to see,

619
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: you know, what's culturally cool, and it's spreading like wildfire

620
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: are all over and in some countries and some cultures,

621
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: it's it's an even more defying and revolutionary idea like

622
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: um in the Dominican Republic, for example, where the idea

623
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: of being black is such a dangerous thing to accept.

624
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: Um for black women to kind of not even black women,

625
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: any women of color with kinky hair in the Dominican

626
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: Republic to stop straightening their hair. That's a really revolutionary act.

627
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: But it's also very liberating. And what's happening there in

628
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: the hair community is fascinating. So all of this to

629
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: me is the most um, exciting and new things that

630
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: happened in the last you know, ten years, ten to

631
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: twelve years in the black hair community. Well, it seems

632
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: like just culturally speaking, you keep using the word revolutionary

633
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: and it seems even more and it does sound revolutionary,

634
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 1: just the very concept of embracing hair for beauty's sake,

635
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 1: and that's it and there are no qualifications necessary. I mean,

636
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: that's that might sound so simple, but I mean it's

637
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: it's pretty radical if you think about where we, as

638
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, American society are coming from when it comes

639
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: to black hair. Exactly it is and that you know,

640
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: even my father, I love him, he when I told

641
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: him I was writing a book about hair, he was like,

642
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, so excited. That was my first book, and

643
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: he was so proud of me. But he you know,

644
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, pull me aside. Are you sure there's really

645
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: something to say? Let's what a long book about black hair?

646
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: You know, people often look at me funny when I

647
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: say that, you know my I mean, I'm a academic

648
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: university professor, and when people say what's your area of

649
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 1: interests of research, I'm like black hair. And it seems

650
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you understand where I'm coming from, it

651
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: does seem like there couldn't possibly be that much to say.

652
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: But it's incredible how um the hair is so telling

653
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: in our againd of our cultural place in society. UM.

654
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: Part of it's because the hair is so malleable. You know,

655
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: we can't really change I mean you can go under

656
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: the knife obviously, and you could in theory change your

657
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 1: whole body. But in terms of kind of every day

658
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: what you as an individual have control over, your hair

659
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: is one of those things. You can change its color,

660
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: you can change its texture, you can change the style

661
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: every day you put a wing on. I mean, there's

662
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: so many ways that you can change your hair to

663
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: reflect what you think society expects of you. And that's

664
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: true for any you know, black or white, or any

665
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: other UM person of any background. The hair really is

666
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: our one thing. And I mean think about men facial hair.

667
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: I mean they can grow a beard and look like

668
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: a completely different person. They can grow mustache, they can

669
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: handle our mustaches. I mean hair really really is that

670
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: thing that we have control over that can really change

671
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: how we look. So in that respects, UM, In that respects,

672
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: that's the universal truth about hair, UM. But then when

673
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: you take it into the black society, into black the

674
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: black community, UM, where we have we are the other

675
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: in a white dominated society. Our hair is the gives

676
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: us the ability to kind of fit in or not

677
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: fit in, because it also it is that malleable thing. Um.

678
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: There's this example of you know, Angela Davis, you know,

679
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: who was a wanted woman and she was so identified

680
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: with her afro that when she tied her afrow down

681
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: and wore a wig, she was walking around, you know,

682
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: walked through a group of police officers who didn't even

683
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: look twice at her because she did didn't have that

684
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: big afro, and she eluded, Um, she eluded police capture

685
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: simply by changing her hairstyle. So it's, um, it is

686
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: revolutionary to think because to think about black hair in

687
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: the ways that we do, because it's really I mean,

688
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: it's really identity politics, and it is how you know,

689
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: If we choose to conform and we choose to use

690
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: our hair to assimilate and fit in, that's one thing.

691
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: But when we choose to buck the system, we choose

692
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: to do something different, we obviously are gonna doubly stand out. Um.

693
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: And it takes courage in a lot of ways to

694
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: do that. Um. But when we do do it, and

695
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: we do it well, you know, there's a lot of

696
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, positive responses from all over um. But I

697
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: mean the reality is that our hair still causes people

698
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: to question our loyalty to the country. Are whether or

699
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: not we're you know, um, violent, whether we're criminal, whether

700
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: we're anti society. It still says so much to the

701
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: external culture what kind of black person are you? Based

702
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: on what your hairstyle is doing. So, um, we're still

703
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: judged very much by what our hair is doing. And

704
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: that also is true cross ratio. I mean, you know,

705
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: if a white woman walks into a room and she

706
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: has a mohawk and pink, you know, a pink mohawk,

707
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: people are going to make assumptions about her, um, and

708
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: she has long her versus short hair, curly or straight,

709
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: all of that. You know, people are judged by their hairstyles.

710
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: But again, Black people are doubly judged because their hairstyles

711
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: seem to signify certain things to people. You know, again,

712
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: are the anti establishment? Are they a drug dealer? Are

713
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: they a gang member? All of these things are still

714
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: caught up in our hair. So whatever we're doing stylistically,

715
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: especially if it's different than the norm, really is a

716
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: revolutionary act in a lot of ways. And I'll continue

717
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: my conversation with Lori l. Tharp's about her book Hair Story,

718
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America. When we

719
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break and now back

720
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: to the show, the last thing I wanted to ask

721
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: you about how this natural hair movement and just black

722
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: hair in general intersects with the workplace, because this is

723
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: actually something we've heard from our listeners about as well,

724
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: in terms of the persistent discrimination, particularly targeted towards black

725
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: women regarding their hair in the workplace, because there's this

726
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: idea that professional in quotes looks a specific way and

727
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: it's very straight. And my my co host Caroline actually

728
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: had a friend who in a job interview was wore

729
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: her hair kind of straightened, and at the end of

730
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: the interview, which she nailed, her few your boss said,

731
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 1: now I hope that you plan to wear your hair

732
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: like that as long as you work for us, Oh my,

733
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: and as if it's nothing, as if it that is

734
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: completely and totally fine. So um, how I mean, so

735
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: where where does all of this fit together? I mean,

736
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: are we I mean we just had the US military,

737
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: for instance, updated, finally updated terror regulations for black female soldiers.

738
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: I mean, is that a step do you think in

739
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: in a domino effector is it going to take a

740
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: long time? Well, um, I'm very I was very heartened

741
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: to see that the military responded to all of the

742
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: UM backlash and cries for un to please look again

743
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: UM at their policy, which to me shows that when

744
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: black women and black people stand together, UM, that their

745
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: voices can be heard. UM. That was really uh, I

746
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: thought a really positive response, and that they relaxed some

747
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: of their their roles I thought was also very positive

748
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: because it meant that they were listening. But they still

749
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: um outlawed dreadlocks, which I thought was still a which

750
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: you know, actually allows me to answer the rest of

751
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: your question that you know the idea that I don't

752
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: know who is making these decisions um, either in the

753
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: military or anywhere else, that you know, you that certain

754
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: styles signify certain things about a person. Um. Yes, it

755
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: may be true that there is a drug dealer out

756
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: there who has the dreadlocks, but that does not mean

757
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: I think we all learned that in the seventh grade

758
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 1: logic class that all drug dealers therefore where dreadlocks. Like. UM,

759
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: there's this. I believe that the reason that the military

760
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: and other UM professions organizations, I mean everything from FedEx

761
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: to six Flags have outlawed dreadlocks for their employees. Um

762
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: and especially I mean when it goes all the way

763
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: down to six Flags or even a male carrier from

764
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: like a FedEx or ups who you know, large complaints

765
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 1: about employees wearing um dread blacks. The only reasons like that,

766
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: The main reasons that people are saying that is because

767
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: they claim that those are scary hairstyles, and that can

768
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: only come from a belief system that there's something inherently

769
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: scary about dreadlocks or that people who wear dreadlocks are

770
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: involved in nefarious activity, which goes to the back to

771
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, when there are policies workplace

772
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: policies for example, about certain hairstyles. There's one. I mean,

773
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: it's very clear to me that certain organizations, if we're

774
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: talking about a corporate environment, that they are going to

775
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: have a dress code. And I can even understand to

776
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: a large extent why any kind of out of the

777
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: ordinary hairstyle is going to be frowned upon. And that's

778
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: where again white or black, UM, I would I believe that, uh,

779
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, a corporate banking environment who still makes women

780
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: and men wear blue suits red ties. That's it, are

781
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: gonna say something if you come to work with you know,

782
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: even if a woman has just excessively long hair, that's

783
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: always kind of out because it would be distracting. But

784
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: there's still like a double standard for black people because

785
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: certain styles, even if you don't know anything about them,

786
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: are just deemed inappropriate simply because there is an association

787
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: with negative behavior with that style, and that's just that's

788
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: just racist. I mean, there's no other way to say it.

789
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: And we are again, this is why we wanted to

790
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: update the book. This is why we have our website here,

791
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: story online dot com because this keeps happening where people

792
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: are discriminated against, and we're seeing it even in like

793
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: elementary schools, where young girls are even being told that

794
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 1: they have to leave the school or go home because

795
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: they're wearing their hair and dreadlocks or afropuffs styles that

796
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: somebody has designated as inappropriate. And when we talk, most

797
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: of these are natural hairstyles, which would assume when you

798
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: say they're inappropriate for the school or inappropriate for the workplace,

799
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: then you're suggesting that natural black hair doesn't belong in

800
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: an academic environment, or that it doesn't belong in the workplace.

801
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: Those are questionable. Those are really dangerous precedents to set,

802
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: in my opinion. And again, I'm not suggesting that anybody

803
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 1: should be able to come to work with a Bob

804
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 1: Marley head of dreadlocks if you're working in a bank,

805
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: But if your dreadlocks are neat and in a bun,

806
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: you know they're no more. I mean, what's the difference,

807
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, like, that's my This kind

808
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: of wholehearted discrimination against an entire type of hairstyle, to me,

809
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: shows that there's not enough nuance or wanting to make

810
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: the It's not even making an option, it's about paying

811
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: attention to what is um a different cultures, you know

812
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: hair um. The military, I feel like they kind of

813
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: took that into they they I feel that that's what

814
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: they were listening to and that black women were saying,

815
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: you're outlawing the very style that would make the most

816
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: sense for a woman in combat. You know, styles that

817
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: are easy to do that don't need a lot of maintenance,

818
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: like twists and dreadlocks, and you've just outlawed them. And

819
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: you actually put something as ridiculous as you can wear

820
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: a wig wearing a wig in combat, Like, I mean,

821
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: just thinking about it, it's ridiculous. And so it's like

822
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 1: clearly whoever was writing that policy didn't know enough about

823
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: black hair, like biologically to say that doesn't make sense,

824
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: Like that's not either economically efficient or efficient in terms

825
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: of styling for what we want our soldiers to be

826
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: able to do. Um. And I think it's the same

827
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: thing in the professional world. You know, people are making

828
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: assumptions like you just can't wear that style because that

829
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: means you're drug dealer, or that means you're you know,

830
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: I can't I can't even rationalize why a short neat

831
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: afro isn't appropriate in a certain board room because it's

832
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's simply a very simple, basic non um

833
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: in your face style. And yet they've certainly these certain

834
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: looks aren't it's simply because it's an afro, it would

835
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: be considered inappropriate. So where we are today, I think

836
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: in um, I mean, I think it should be clarified

837
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: that you're there are a lot of professions, I mean,

838
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: some um, very creative professions, like the magazine industry, which

839
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: I have worked in in the academia, I've never been

840
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: dinged for my hairstyles. And I've worned every natural hairstyle

841
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: you could imagine, dreadlocks, afros, big poofy hair, I mean everything.

842
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: And I've only been complimented on my hair. My co author,

843
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: Iata Bird, same thing. She's worked in a variety of

844
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: creative UM communications positions and she's never been dinged on

845
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: her hair either. But every single day we hear stories

846
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: like you just shared with me, people who are in

847
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: corporate environments who are told in the interview or don't

848
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: get the job, or are reprimanded because of their hairstyles.

849
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: So I mean even on we you know, just this

850
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: past year, we saw a woman you know, on broadcast

851
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 1: television lose her job for natural hairstyle related issues. So UM,

852
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: I would say that we are No. I don't think

853
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: we've gotten any better, because these things are still happening,

854
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: and they seem to be happening still rather regularly. UM.

855
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: But I feel like it just to a certain extent,

856
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: Like if I'm ever, if I'm ever UM counseling young

857
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: people who are looking for jobs, I would say, you know,

858
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: know the environment that you're going into, and if you're

859
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: going into a corporate environment and your your natural hairstyles

860
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: have or into you. You have to make a decision

861
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: is the job more important or your hair more important,

862
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: because people aren't going to budge because of one person.

863
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: If they have a if they have a uniform policy,

864
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: be prepared for your hair to match the uniform because

865
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: there is still a standard that for the most part,

866
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: natural black hairstyles don't meet. UM. And this too is

867
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: an international phenomenon. There's a I mean, it was a YouTube.

868
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: It went viral because there was a young man who

869
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: worked for Air France as an airline steward and they

870
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: outlined outlawed dreadlocks, and he wore a wig to work

871
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: every day, took it off when he got to when

872
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: he got home, and put it back on when he

873
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: got on the airplane, and just to cover up his dreadlocks,

874
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: which were very neat, very neat trim short dreadlocks. But

875
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: it was a uniform policy and so he just he

876
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: said it like my wiggest part of my uniform. So

877
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that we have gotten any kind of

878
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: further in our acceptance of UM certain hairstyles in the

879
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: workplace at all. UM. My only hope is that again,

880
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 1: young people who are entering the workplace understand this, and

881
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a battle they need to

882
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: fight if they are trying to get a job. I

883
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 1: think that at this point they need to know that

884
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: they have to decide if their hair or their job

885
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: is more important. It's just unfortunate that's even a decision

886
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 1: that has to be made. I know, it's really I mean,

887
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: and again, I'm I'm old. You know I'm old. I

888
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Like I said, I've had the luck of choosing professions

889
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: that are on the creative side. This has never been

890
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: an issue for me. It has never like it to me.

891
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: When you said that about your colleague, I I it's

892
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: almost like I can't believe that it's true. I read

893
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: about it all the time I studied, I talked to

894
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: people about it, so I very much know it's true.

895
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: But it's still boggles the mind that a young person

896
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: has to think about whether they should cut off their

897
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: beautiful dreadlocks that they've been growing in stince they were,

898
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen or something, that they keep meat and

899
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: professional in a bun, because there is a very large

900
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: possibility that the person that interviews them sees their dreadlocks

901
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: and decides that that's inappropriate, or that there not corporate material,

902
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: or that they can't even see their stellar resume because

903
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: they're looking at their hair and thinking that person is

904
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: not going to be a team player. That person is

905
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: probably involved in a deep sea the underworld. I mean,

906
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: I can't even guess what's going on in their minds,

907
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: but whatever it is, in today's world, I cannot honestly

908
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: tell somebody to risk a hairstyle if they really want

909
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 1: the job. And and you know again I think that

910
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: that's again if a young I can't you can't equate

911
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: that with a you know, in a you cannot equate

912
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: that to people who are not black, because there's really

913
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: not a hairstyle that a white person would have that

914
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: would automatically dis qualify them from um a job. I mean,

915
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: if a if a white woman had really long hair,

916
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: she could always pin it up in a bun, you know,

917
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: if she I mean, I don't. I can't really think

918
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: of an equivalent where she would have to, you know,

919
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: cut off her hair and start over again to get

920
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: a job. Like it just I don't see anything. I mean,

921
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: she might have to take out her six earrings, but

922
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 1: that's different. That's not the same thing. As um, cutting

923
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: off your hair or putting chemicals in your hair, or

924
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: putting extreme heat on your hair so that it looks

925
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: like whatever the corporate world wants it to look like.

926
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: I mean, that's I mean, it's altering your body to

927
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 1: get a job. Well, and that's gets to the point

928
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: of you know what you said, where this is simply

929
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: racism in the guise of professionalism, and so it kind

930
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: of gets this past under like under dress codes, professionalism,

931
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: corporate jargon, etcetera. But the underlying issue is a history

932
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 1: of persistent racism. Absolutely. And um it's like I said,

933
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: I've never been in that situation, and I don't even

934
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: know what I would do. I mean, if I had

935
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: a family defeat, I certainly. I mean, again, we've talked

936
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: to so many people who have been in this situation.

937
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: A good friend of mine was a corporate lawyer in

938
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: New York City and she had dreadlocks, and she too,

939
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: she had a wig in her office. She would just

940
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: put the wig on when she got to work and

941
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: take it off when she left. She didn't take it home.

942
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't a part of it was part

943
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: of her uniform. And um, I guess that I mean,

944
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: I think that's the samest way to you know, to

945
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,240
Speaker 1: deal with that is you put on your corporate uniform

946
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: and it's just for the She left it on her desk.

947
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: She had a little wigstand and she was like, I

948
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: put it on when I get there and take it

949
00:56:55,560 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: off when I leave. Um So I mean, I that's

950
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: the extra burden. I mean, it is the extra burden

951
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: that it requires to you know, it's not about how

952
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: how good your grades were, it's not about how many

953
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: internships you've had. It's still about what you how you

954
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: present so that you make the people around you comfortable.

955
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: So it's the burden is on the black person trying

956
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: to get the job and you know, to be Again,

957
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: the um Hampton University, historically black university, their business school

958
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: has outlawed natural hairstyles for their business students because they

959
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: claim that they are preparing you for the world which

960
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: you are going to enter. So you can't even be

961
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: in the business school at this black institution with natural

962
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 1: hair because they too have said this is you know,

963
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: it's not going to be acceptable, so it won't be

964
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: acceptable here. So again this is uh, this is an

965
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: issue that has many sides to it and Um, the

966
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: champions are the people who are fighting against and aren't

967
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: necessarily the ones who you would think and the people

968
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: who are are supporting it aren't necessarily the same one.

969
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: So you would think it's a it's a very I mean,

970
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: you you can find people who would fight on all

971
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: sides of this issue. Um, it's interesting that the um,

972
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: I think it was one of the deans at Hampton said,

973
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know why people insist on wearing

974
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: these styles. They don't they aren't traditional black styles to

975
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: where you know, he said, you know, Malcolm Xton were dreadlocks. Um, Um,

976
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr. Didn't wear dreadlocks, So you know,

977
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: why why do you think that you have to have

978
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: dreadlocks to be you know, to be a proud black

979
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: man or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and I'm you know,

980
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: I'm just pointing out. I'm trying to make the point that, um,

981
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: not all black people also believe that this is that

982
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: it's that that, um, not all black people are against

983
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, there should be some sort

984
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: of corporate environment, corporate hair code as well. So um,

985
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: so again, so the people who are perpetuating this this idea,

986
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: aren't just white people. That's also some thing to remain

987
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: to keep in mind. Well, and if it was unclear

988
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: to any of the listeners at the beginning of our

989
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: conversation how someone could write an entire book about this,

990
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: I think it should be pretty clear now. Yes, yes,

991
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg.

992
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: I know there's so so much to talk about. Well, Laurie,

993
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: those were all of my questions where you and honestly, yes,

994
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: I could continue asking you so many questions. UM, but

995
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: is there any final takeaway for our listeners about black

996
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: hair about the book? UM, just anything you'd like to add.

997
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is that again, when it goes

998
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: back to why we wrote the book, when UM, I

999
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: have this experience. UM, when I was still I worked

1000
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: in a corporate environment. UM. I worked at a PR

1001
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: agency when I first got a college. And UM, one

1002
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: of the clients that UM I wasn't working on, but

1003
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: one of colleagues was working on, was a a product. UM.

1004
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: It was a black hair care line called it was

1005
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: Revalon's Cream of Nature line of shampoos and conditioners. And

1006
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: one of my white colleagues came into my office and

1007
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: saw the I was like, I had a product poster,

1008
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: product sample on my death and she looked at it

1009
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: and like recoiled and said, oh my god, what is that?

1010
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: That sounds disgusting? And I was trying to figure out

1011
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: what she was talking about, and she was like, cream

1012
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: of Nature that sounds like dirty, Like what is that?

1013
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: And it just shocked me for a minute, because, I mean,

1014
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: I understood where her mind had gone, but I couldn't

1015
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 1: figure out why she didn't know what cream of Nature was, um,

1016
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 1: because it was the shampoo in my bathroom for my

1017
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: whole entire life, Like it seemed as usual, as regular

1018
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: as ivory soaped. And that's when it really hit me,

1019
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: Like that was one of those big moments where I

1020
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 1: realized that white people and black people live in completely

1021
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: different worlds when it comes to our hair. That you know,

1022
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: black people, for the most part, no everything about white

1023
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: hair culture because it's what we see, it's what's on television,

1024
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: it's within movies, it's just what's in the public eye.

1025
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, white people don't know anything.

1026
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to say like they don't anything,

1027
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: but black hair culture is a complete mystery because it's

1028
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: done behind closed doors, in separate spaces, in separate places,

1029
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: and until recently, even the products that we used were

1030
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: you know, on separate shelves at the drug store, so

1031
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even realize that there are different products. So

1032
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: there's this some idea that we had that you know,

1033
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: if not just black people but non black people understood

1034
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: black hair culture, that we could really um, you know,

1035
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: bridge some of these you know, big gaps that there

1036
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 1: are between you know, black and white America, which people

1037
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: tend to think that those issues are you know, because

1038
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: of you know, segregation and busting and um, you know politics,

1039
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: when it's really I think a lot more about the

1040
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: little intimate things that we do on a day to

1041
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,479
Speaker 1: day basis, and so much of you know, paining comes

1042
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: from just misunderstanding and not knowing. So the kennel this,

1043
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: can I touch your hair? I don't understand. Like, it's

1044
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: just about understanding and learning and knowing. So that's why

1045
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: we wrote the book. That's why we love to do

1046
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: the radio interviews because, um, the more people know and

1047
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: and total asterix here is that not just white people,

1048
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: but black people as well, because a lot of people,

1049
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: a lot of black people don't even know their own

1050
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: history of their hair so feel maybe um sensitive about it,

1051
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: but don't even understand why on both sides of the coin.

1052
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: I think if more people actually understood where so many,

1053
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: so much of this hurt, but also so much of

1054
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: the celebration and the and the culture comes from, then

1055
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: we bridge the gaps of misunderstandings. And you know, that

1056
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: next person who is interviewing a black person doesn't say,

1057
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, I hope you can wear your hair

1058
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: like that. You know, it's more of a oh nice hair,

1059
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: or maybe she'll have her hair differently tomorrow, but I'll

1060
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: understand that that's very normal. Um. That's what we're hoping for,

1061
01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: is that's why we wrote the book, is so that

1062
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: all of my Americans, UM, would take the time to

1063
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: just learn a little bit about this very public, very

1064
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: public thing of black hair that has a lot of

1065
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, implications and radications within our culture. Well, I

1066
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: just want to thank you for coming on stuff I've

1067
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: never told you, to teach us and our me and

1068
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,959
Speaker 1: our listeners all about this and clear up misunderstandings and

1069
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: just fill in all of these gaps that very much

1070
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: need to be filled in. Um. Last thing I just

1071
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: want to ask is where people can go to find

1072
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: more uh information about you, Ayanna and the book because

1073
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:42,919
Speaker 1: it is fantastic and I highly recommend that people read it. Well,

1074
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: thank you so much. People can UM go to our

1075
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: website hair story online dot com all one word, no

1076
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 1: caps or anything, hair story online dot Com and that's

1077
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: where you can find out information about the book. There's

1078
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: links to Ayana and are my um individual web pages.

1079
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: There's always updated information about what's going on in the

1080
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: world of black hair and as well where you'll be

1081
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: able to see us if we're doing any speaking tours

1082
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: or anything like that. We're not doing a whole lot

1083
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: of speaking anymore like right now. Certain events that are

1084
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: coming up will be there, but if you want to

1085
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 1: see us, that's where to find us is we have

1086
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, we have a calendar for page on there. Well,

1087
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: thank you so much again to Lori L. Tharps. We

1088
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: hope you go check out her website and definitely pick

1089
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: up her book hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black

1090
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: Hair in America. And we definitely definitely want to hear

1091
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: from our listeners on this topic. What types of issues

1092
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: have you dealt with with your hair. What types of

1093
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: things have you heard from other people? I'm sure there

1094
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: are all sorts of stories out there. Yeah, So email

1095
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: us mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is

1096
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 1: where you can do that. You can also tweet us

1097
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we

1098
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: have a couple of letters about our curly hair episode

1099
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: that we did a little while back to share with

1100
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: you right now. So I've got a letter here from

1101
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: Lacy and she said, I'm currently transitioning from here as

1102
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: a flat ironing my hair to letting it go curly,

1103
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: and it's been a major struggle with my own preconceived

1104
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 1: notions of curly hair is unkempt, and I wanted to

1105
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: add a couple of things. One is another movie where

1106
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: curly hair is potentially used as symbolism. And How to

1107
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: Lose a Guy In Ten Days, Kate Hudson's character starts

1108
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: as a stick straight, slick blonde actually working at a

1109
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: fashion magazine, but as her character transitions away from that,

1110
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,480
Speaker 1: she gets curlier and curlier. Finally, I'm an attorney, and

1111
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: even though I'm trying to wear my hair more naturally

1112
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: for court, I still show up with straightened hair in

1113
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: a ponytail. No matter what statement I'm trying to make,

1114
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 1: I can't have an old fashioned male judge think my

1115
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: case was sloppy because of his perceptions about my hair

1116
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: and potentially risk losing a case. I hate that that's

1117
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: how it is, but there isn't much I can do personally.

1118
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: I'd also love to hear an episode on how female

1119
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: attorneys must dress for occasions like court. By the way,

1120
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: every once in a while a judge will write an

1121
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: article about slutty or frumpy attorneys and that never goes

1122
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 1: over very well. Thanks for the great podcast. This is

1123
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: my first time writing in and I just love your episodes.

1124
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: It gets me through some of my more tedious tasks

1125
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: of my day. So thanks lazy Okay. I have a

1126
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: letter here from t J. She says, thank you so

1127
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 1: much for covering this topic. I stopped chemically straightening my

1128
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: hair in middle school and stopped using heat after my

1129
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: first year in college. I have kinky, curly hair. By

1130
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: the way, so many African American women spend years not

1131
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: knowing what their hair actually looks like, and are even

1132
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: afraid to find out because of the prominent quote good hair,

1133
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: Bad Hair notions that plague the community. I found some

1134
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: interesting articles. Uh, and t J talks about articles on

1135
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 1: the website Black Roll with Long Hair. She says one

1136
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 1: about the Army changing regulations for certain hairstyles and another

1137
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: about an old Louisiana law that forced women of color

1138
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: to wear scarves because of their fabulous hairstyles. Another current

1139
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: issue is chemical relax or companies trying their hardest to

1140
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: roll out lines of quote unquote natural products for curly hair.

1141
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 1: And so again that website that t J pointed out

1142
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: is Black Girl with Long Hair. So thank you for

1143
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 1: the excellent talking point, t J, and thanks everybody who's

1144
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: written into us Moms Steven House. Stuffworks dot com is

1145
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: our email address and for links to all of our

1146
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,

1147
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one that also include all of

1148
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 1: our sources. So you can follow along while you listen,

1149
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot

1150
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

1151
01:07:52,280 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com. Four