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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. We have an amazing

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Speaker 3: show today, don't we.

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Speaker 4: You're talking so quickly.

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Speaker 3: Amazing.

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Speaker 4: It's an amazing bug.

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Speaker 5: Oh wow, indeed we do. I think that's my cue card.

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Speaker 5: It's like SNL, I need to look at the mugs

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Speaker 5: for my line. We do, though, in fact, have a

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Speaker 5: big show today, Bryan. Lots of news obviously to cover

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Speaker 5: out of the Middle East. We have election results from

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Speaker 5: last night. I'm very curious to get your take on

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Speaker 5: some of the election results actually out of Wisconsin. Interesting

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Speaker 5: stuff there. John Stewart hosted Lena Kahn on the Daily Show,

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Speaker 5: and man, was it a fascinating conversation. Actually gets into

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Speaker 5: some of the reasons in fact that the DOJ filed

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Speaker 5: an anti trust suit against Apple just recently. We're going

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Speaker 5: to be talking about an absolutely wild segment on the

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Speaker 5: view that is probably the most evergreen way to put it.

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Speaker 5: We could say that every single week and.

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Speaker 4: Come up with some clip.

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Speaker 6: They asked the question, are you better off than you

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Speaker 6: were four years ago? We'll get Emily to answer that.

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Speaker 6: We'll find out, Yeah, we'll.

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Speaker 5: Get Annotabaro's take as well for just how the wealthy

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Speaker 5: Manhattan dwellers are doing versus four years ago. Ryan, you

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Speaker 5: ran a Twitter pool that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 5: on the renaming of Dallas Airport, which is a Republican

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Speaker 5: led effort.

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Speaker 6: House Republicans want us to have instead of a Dulles

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Speaker 6: and Reagan Airport here in DC and Thurgood Marshall over

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Speaker 6: in Baltimore, they want us to have a Trump and

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Speaker 6: a Reagan Airport. We're going to find out if that's

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Speaker 6: actually better than Dulles.

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Speaker 4: Right, it's important to move beyond.

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Speaker 3: The Cold War, I guess so.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And you're gonna lead us on a segment about

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Speaker 5: Harry Dunn, who some people may remember from the fall

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Speaker 5: out after January sixth. The hearing is the investigations. He

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Speaker 5: was a central figure and all of that.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, he's now running for Congress in Maryland and bizarrely

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Speaker 6: Apec could end up being his biggest obstacle to get

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Speaker 6: into Congress.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about that. It's bizarre story.

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Speaker 4: And we have a good guest.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I'm Ed Cohn who has been on the show before.

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Speaker 6: He's been on my podcast, Deconstructed. Leads relief efforts around

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Speaker 6: the world everywhere from Syria to Rwanda, to Ukraine to Gaza.

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Speaker 6: He's in Cyprus now and he's going to talk about

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Speaker 6: what it's like, you know, trying to get relief supplies

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Speaker 6: into Gaza given the fact that the Israeli military appeers

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Speaker 6: willing to go to extraordinary lengths to make sure that

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Speaker 6: this near famine tips into a famine by attacking aid

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Speaker 6: workers as we saw on Monday.

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Speaker 7: And that's it.

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Speaker 3: That's where we can start today.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we might as well start right there. In fact,

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Speaker 5: we can put this map on the screen. Ryan, Can

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Speaker 5: you walk us through what we're looking at with a one?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 6: So this is the convoy that by now infamous convoy

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Speaker 6: that I'm sure if you're watching you have heard of this.

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Speaker 6: This was the World Central Kitchens effort to move hundreds

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Speaker 6: of tons from Cyprus into Gaza into the kitchens that

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Speaker 6: were gradually kind of replacing the work that UNRA had

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Speaker 6: been doing and has been hobbled from doing. Let's not

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Speaker 6: even get into that situation right now, but it goes

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Speaker 6: to I think intent, the whack a mole effort that

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Speaker 6: the world is making to kind of get aid in

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Speaker 6: continues to meet the hammer of Israeli opposition to simply

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Speaker 6: feeding the Palestinian population.

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Speaker 3: So the three.

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Speaker 6: The three cars that you saw on that map there

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Speaker 6: represent the places where each of them were struck. And

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Speaker 6: we now know from reporting by Aretz, al Jazeera and

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Speaker 6: others that the first car was struck and at that

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Speaker 6: time the wounded in that vehicle were taken to the

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Speaker 6: second vehicle, and the w ck workers had enough time

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Speaker 6: to call their superiors because they had been in coordination

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Speaker 6: with the IDF and so at first, and these are

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Speaker 6: the biggest, most good hearted people on the planet, the

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Speaker 6: fact that they're dedicating their lives to humanitarian relief efforts,

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Speaker 6: so it's very hard for them, I think, to believe

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Speaker 6: at first that they're being targeted by the IDF. So

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Speaker 6: they're calling, they're cooperating, they are constantly cooperating with the

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Speaker 6: idea of telling them what route they're in, et cetera.

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Speaker 6: And so they call their superiors, tell them call it off,

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Speaker 6: call it off, We're getting struck. They then strike the

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Speaker 6: second vehicle. The wounded that are still able to be

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Speaker 6: moved to the third vehicle are moved, and then the

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Speaker 6: drone strikes the third vehicle.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 6: The images that everybody has seen has shown the logo

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Speaker 6: World Central Kitchen on the top. So they're there's just

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Speaker 6: no credible way that anybody could say that this was

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Speaker 6: anything other than deliberate. Now, how Reetz reported that the

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Speaker 6: idea of initial explanation was that the drone operators believed

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Speaker 6: that they saw an armed person on the convoy when

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Speaker 6: it went into the warehouse, but they did not see

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Speaker 6: that armed person when they left the warehouse. Now we

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Speaker 6: know that three security people, I think, one from Ireland,

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Speaker 6: one from Britain, one from somewhere else died in this attack.

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Speaker 6: So the idea just pause on that for a second.

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Speaker 6: So they think that they see a convoy that they

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Speaker 6: know is a World Central Kitchen convoy.

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Speaker 3: And they just left.

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Speaker 5: These just left.

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Speaker 6: The warehouse and on the way in they thought they

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Speaker 6: saw a person with a weapon. They don't see that

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Speaker 6: person with the weapon on the convoy, but let's say

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Speaker 6: they did.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: First of all, why would a convoy not have a

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Speaker 6: person with a weapon going through a dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Area a war zone.

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Speaker 6: So second, what that's saying is that their rules of

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Speaker 6: engagement suggest that if they suspect that there's a single

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Speaker 6: let's say even a terrorist, a single Hamas fighter within

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Speaker 6: this convoy, that their rules of engagement allow them to

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Speaker 6: light up the entire convoy and methodically chase the victims

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Speaker 6: from one vehicle to another until they're all killed.

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Speaker 3: That's their own explanation.

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Speaker 5: Except their premise, right, if you accept their right, yes,

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Speaker 5: you know exactly. And I don't think the israel government

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Speaker 5: has commented on this yet, but Israeli media has reported

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Speaker 5: that yes, there's a suspected militant embedded with the convoy.

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Speaker 5: We don't know exactly what their explanation is, but if

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Speaker 5: you take their premise at face value, it's still outrageous.

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Speaker 6: Right, and it is incredible they would think that an

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Speaker 6: armed person with a convoy with armored cars.

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Speaker 3: And everything is a militant.

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Speaker 6: Is a millet like maybe it's the Irish guy they

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Speaker 6: hired to do security.

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Speaker 5: And you've you've made this point before that you know

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Speaker 5: when you're part of the big challenge if you are

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Speaker 5: the IDF, and let's say again, in a hypothetical world,

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Speaker 5: do you want to prosecute the most ethical war to

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Speaker 5: the extent that's not an oxymoron, you want to prosecute

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Speaker 5: the most ethical war possible. The fact that Hamas is

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Speaker 5: essentially the de facto government of the Gaza strip it

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Speaker 5: makes it incredibly difficult.

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Speaker 4: There's no question about that.

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Speaker 6: The infrastructure, anybody's doing security, it's going to be like

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Speaker 6: a Hamas linked police force.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely. That's like one of the things with.

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Speaker 6: The unroduct that would not excuse killing a bunch of

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Speaker 6: AID workers that.

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Speaker 5: Were with them, exactly, And that's one of the big

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Speaker 5: challenges in the unroad debate. Jose Andres sub Amaru made

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Speaker 5: a really good point about this. Jose Andres was furious

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Speaker 5: at the Spanish government for not being sort of supportive

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Speaker 5: enough of Israel after October seventh. This is Jose Andres

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Speaker 5: is nonprofit World's central Kitchen, as many people know, that's

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Speaker 5: doing the aid work that was destroyed, that was killed.

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Speaker 5: So I mean it's just again, it's horrible.

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Speaker 6: Right, and so that's why you have we can put

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Speaker 6: up this next element. Here's fran Albinizi un special Rappidoire saying,

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Speaker 6: knowing how Israel operates, my assessment is that Israeli forces

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Speaker 6: intentionally killed World Central kitchen workers so that donors would

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Speaker 6: pull out and civilians and Gaza could continue to be starved. Quietly,

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Speaker 6: Israel knows Western countries and most Arab countries won't move

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Speaker 6: a finger for the Palestinians. So let's see how John

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Speaker 6: Kirby responded at the White House yesterday. By the way,

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Speaker 6: the State Department canceled its briefing a rare occurrence, and

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Speaker 6: then they were like, let's let John Kirby just handle

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Speaker 6: this one. So let's see how John Kirby handled this one.

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Speaker 8: Is fighting a missile of people who have been food

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Speaker 8: and killing them, not a violation of international humanitarian law.

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Speaker 7: Well, and Israelis have already admitted that this was a

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Speaker 7: mistake that they made. They're doing investigation, they'll get to

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Speaker 7: the bottom of this. Let's not get ahead of that.

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Speaker 7: Your question presumes at this very early hour that it

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Speaker 7: was a deliberate strike, that they knew exactly what they

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Speaker 7: were hitting, that they were hitting aid workers and did

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Speaker 7: it on purpose, and there's no evidence of that. I

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Speaker 7: would also remind.

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Speaker 5: You, sir, that we continue to look at incidents as

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Speaker 5: they occur.

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Speaker 7: The State Department has a process in place, and to date,

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Speaker 7: as you and I are speaking, they have not found

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Speaker 7: any incidents where the Israelis have violated international humanitarian law.

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Speaker 7: Unless you think we don't take it seriously, I can

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Speaker 7: assure you that we do.

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Speaker 5: We look at this in real time.

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Speaker 8: I have never violated the international humanitarian law effort in

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Speaker 8: the past five to six months.

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Speaker 7: I'm telling you the State Department has looked at incidents

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Speaker 7: in the past and has yet to determine that any

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Speaker 7: of those incidents violate international humanitarian law.

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Speaker 6: It really raises the question of what the point of

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Speaker 6: international humanitarian law is. If that's true, you could kill hundreds,

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Speaker 6: more than two hundred aid workers, more than one hundred journalists,

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Speaker 6: hundreds of nurses and doctors, leave a population of two

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Speaker 6: point three million displaced and their homes in rubble, and

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Speaker 6: not violate international law. But I wanted to play unless

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Speaker 6: unless you have a respond So this other one another

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Speaker 6: another Kirby clip. So notice his body language there. Notice

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Speaker 6: how animated he was in defense of Israel. There at

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Speaker 6: the top of the press briefing. He was kind of

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Speaker 6: forced to read a statement that was critical of Israel,

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Speaker 6: and I want you to notice the difference in the

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Speaker 6: body language when he's kind of forced to be critical

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Speaker 6: and when he's voluntarily defending them. There's only one moment

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Speaker 6: that he gets animated in this clip that we're about

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Speaker 6: to play, and it's when he thinks he's going to

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Speaker 6: be about to pivot into a defense of Israel. But

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Speaker 6: then he realized he's not, realizes he's not and goes

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Speaker 6: back into kind of a mumbling, kind of forced, almost

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Speaker 6: like hostage like reading of criticism of Israel. Here's Kirby

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Speaker 6: at the top of that briefing.

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Speaker 5: We understand it.

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Speaker 7: A preliminary investigation has been completed today and presented to.

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Speaker 5: The Army Chief of Staff and Will.

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Speaker 7: We'll obviously look to see what they what they discover

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Speaker 7: in this preliminary one, but we expect they brought her

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Speaker 7: investation to be conducted and to be done so in

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Speaker 7: a swift and comprehensive manner. We hope that those findings

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Speaker 7: will be made public and that there is appropriate accountability held.

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Speaker 9: But I'm sorry.

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Speaker 7: More than two hundred AID workers have been killed in

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Speaker 7: this conflict, making it one of the worst for AID

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Speaker 7: workers in recent history. This incident is emblematic of a

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Speaker 7: larger problem and evidence of why distribution of aid in

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Speaker 7: Gaza has been so challenging. But what beyond the strike,

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Speaker 7: what is clear is that the IDF must do much more,

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Speaker 7: much must do much more to improve deconfliction processes so

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Speaker 7: that civilians and humanitarian aid workers are protected. The US

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Speaker 7: will continue to press Israel to do more as well

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Speaker 7: to ensure the safety of humanitarian workers, and will continue

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Speaker 7: to do all we can to deliver this assistance to

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Speaker 7: Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

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Speaker 9: Thank you, Thanks John.

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Speaker 10: Do you have any worries regarding Israel and Gaza about

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Speaker 10: the floating dock and how can aid workers be protected?

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Speaker 7: Worried?

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Speaker 5: What do you mean by worries? Hmm?

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Speaker 3: What even say to that?

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Speaker 5: That was his scripted If you were listening to this,

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Speaker 5: that was the scriptive remarks portion of his appearance at

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Speaker 5: yesterday's White House briefing. That wasn't during Q and A.

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Speaker 5: He actually moved to Q and A right after.

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Speaker 3: That you may have the first question, do you have

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Speaker 3: any worries? Worries or worries? Goes back into his flip routine.

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Speaker 6: Let unless you think we're being unfair to Kirby, Uh,

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Speaker 6: Let's let's go to Barack Revid, who is a reporter

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Speaker 6: for Axios. UH former formerly served in the Israeli military.

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Speaker 6: So we're not talking about somebody who is, you know,

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Speaker 6: some kind of radical Hamas supporter here. So let's let's

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Speaker 6: get barakra VID's analysis of this on CNN.

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Speaker 11: The movement of this convoy was coordinated with the IDEF.

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Speaker 11: This convoy moved on a road that is a humanitarian

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Speaker 11: corridor that the IDEF knows that that cars that are

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Speaker 11: driving on this road are carrying you minitarian aid. The

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Speaker 11: IDF is a partner of the World Central Kitchen in

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Speaker 11: its work in Gaza. It gives security to the boat

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Speaker 11: that is coming from Cyprus and delivering the eight It's

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Speaker 11: not some rogue group that started delivering aid in Gaza.

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Speaker 9: It was all coordinated.

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Speaker 11: And this is why the claim that this was quote

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Speaker 11: unquote unintentional raises a.

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Speaker 9: Lot of questions.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, to go back to Kirby's point, his claim that

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Speaker 6: there's no evidence that Israel knew that this was an

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Speaker 6: AID convoy.

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Speaker 3: Is a lie.

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Speaker 6: Like I don't use the word lie often with these

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Speaker 6: spokespeople because usually they're usually they're gas lighting, they're spinning

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Speaker 6: their bsing, you know, and they're tethered somewhat to like

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Speaker 6: a little piece of the truth.

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Speaker 5: Their job is to be very clever and avoiding a lie.

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Speaker 6: There is lots of evidence that they knew this was

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Speaker 6: a convoy, like A, the fact that the convoy was

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Speaker 6: communicating with the Idea like B, the fact that it

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Speaker 6: said World Central Kitchen on the rooftops, see that Haretz

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Speaker 6: has reported. They knew it was a convoy, but they

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Speaker 6: thought there was a militant associated with it. So just

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Speaker 6: a flat out disgusting lie to cover up a war crime.

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Speaker 5: And so net Yahoo responded, and we can play the

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Speaker 5: video of that. This is if you're watching, you see

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Speaker 5: Yaho's response and the translation is here. Unfortunately, a tragic

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Speaker 5: instance of our forces unintentionally harming innocent people in the

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Speaker 5: Gaza strip.

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Speaker 4: It happens in war.

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Speaker 5: Will investigate it. We're in contact with the governments, and

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Speaker 5: we will do everything so that it doesn't happen again.

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Speaker 6: Just so we can be as perfectly fair as we

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Speaker 6: can to Netanyahu in this clip, in the first half,

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Speaker 6: he's talking about how he himself has left the hospital

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Speaker 6: and has recovered from his procedure that he that he underwent.

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Speaker 6: He thanks the people in that cared for him. And

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Speaker 6: then the second half he transitions to talking about this

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Speaker 6: tragic incident. He says, this is war, but will will

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Speaker 6: investigate it. And people have slammed him for, you know,

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Speaker 6: the kind of joyfulness with which he's delivering this message,

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Speaker 6: and it's understandable to talk about the joy of you know,

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Speaker 6: thanking those who treated you.

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Speaker 3: But he's he remains.

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Speaker 6: That that effort vescence kind of remains as he continues

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Speaker 6: to talk about the tragedy and that this is this

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Speaker 6: is war and we're going to investigate this. He doesn't quite.

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Speaker 6: He doesn't. There's no there's no there's no solemnity, uh.

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Speaker 6: There there's no there's no suggestion in the body language

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Speaker 6: that there's any disappointment or sadness uh from the Israeli

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Speaker 6: leadership that this has happened. Because the if, if the

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Speaker 6: intention was to tighten the grip of starvation on the population,

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Speaker 6: it's working like a charm.

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Speaker 5: I think it's also worth mentioning a Jerusalem Post headline.

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Speaker 5: This is from earlier this week, friendly fire idea of

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Speaker 5: helicopter pilot shot at Israeli soldiers after pressing wrong button.

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Speaker 5: It's not just again, this is like if.

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Speaker 6: You are a stop seentic weapons. I think to these

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Speaker 6: this army, this military And.

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Speaker 5: John Kirby, he had a quote where you said the

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Speaker 5: IDF must do much more, and that was in reference

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Speaker 5: to protecting civilians and aid workers, and it's ryan. It

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Speaker 5: is interesting to have the American government in a defense

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Speaker 5: of Israel saying that actually the IDEF must do quote

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Speaker 5: much more, not some more, not more, much more to

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Speaker 5: defend civilians and aid workers, while at the same time

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Speaker 5: maintaining the posture that you just mentioned that that's a

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Speaker 5: really really difficult.

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Speaker 6: Position, right, And if you're Israel, why would you if

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Speaker 6: your goal is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population from

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Speaker 6: Gaza and the United States is willing to arm you

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Speaker 6: no matter what you do, Like why would you not

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Speaker 6: kill aid workers, kill healthcare workers, like attack every hospital

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Speaker 6: in Gozen, make the place unlivable and expect that the

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Speaker 6: American government will continue to support you all the way.

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Speaker 5: So this is what's especially like for net and Yahoo,

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Speaker 5: that question of what comes next, like day after, what

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Speaker 5: do you actually want to do with a Gaza strip.

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Speaker 5: That's why all of this continues to be an untenable

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Speaker 5: and position period because they don't know what they have

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Speaker 5: no agreement consensus at all on what comes next. There

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Speaker 5: are people that don't want to take any control of

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Speaker 5: the Gaza Strip in Israel, that don't want that to happen.

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Speaker 5: There are people who very very very much do and

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Speaker 5: don't want to give up an inch of it, want

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Speaker 5: every last inch of the Gaza Strip back under Israeli control,

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Speaker 5: whatever it is. So that's how the war ends up

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Speaker 5: being prosecuted in just an utterly bizarre and tragic way.

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Speaker 6: And what predictably came next is we can roll this clip.

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Speaker 6: Relative to the AID shipments, this.

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Speaker 12: Is about the killing of seven AID workers in the

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Speaker 12: Gaza Strip with World Central Kitchen, the charity. We're now

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Speaker 12: hearing from Cyprus that the AID ships that have been

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Speaker 12: traveling from Cyprus into Gaza. Of course, this was a

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Speaker 12: big development for those in Gaza that the AID was

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Speaker 12: able to come in that way. AIG ships are now

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Speaker 12: being turned around still carrying aid. Two hundred and forty

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Speaker 12: tons of undelivered AID is now heading back to Cyprus

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Speaker 12: because of this attack on a car killing seven AID workers,

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Speaker 12: because the charity obviously unloading the ship and distributing that

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Speaker 12: aid in Gaza. World Central Kitchen, one of those charities involved,

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Speaker 12: has now suspended its operations because of this apparent Israeli.

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Speaker 6: S stripe, and so the UAE has also suspended AID operations,

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Speaker 6: saying that it can't keep it can't guarantee that its

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Speaker 6: personnel won't be killed by Israel. ANERA has paused its

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Speaker 6: relief efforts, The World Center of Kitchen pause its relief efforts.

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Speaker 6: ENRA has been banned by Congress and President Biden from

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Speaker 6: getting any from the United States, and Israel has banned

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Speaker 6: from operating in northern Gaza. The predictable and intended consequence

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Speaker 6: will be a rapidly expanding number of deaths bymount nutrition

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Speaker 6: and starvation and disease.

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Speaker 5: And again this brings us back to the questions before

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Speaker 5: we move on of you know, if this is if

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Speaker 5: Israel wants to admit that it's engaged in total war,

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Speaker 5: that's the if that's your tactic, If that's your strategy.

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Speaker 4: They are not owning up to it, and I.

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Speaker 3: Know, the most moral army in the world.

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Speaker 5: It's partially because there's disagreement in their own ranks and

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Speaker 5: there's disagreement with the United States, which is funding it.

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Speaker 5: To the tune of like we've heard so many people

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Speaker 5: in the Israel government say, we could not continue the

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Speaker 5: war without the unconditional support basically of the United States.

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Speaker 5: The United States is attempting to kind of condition it

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Speaker 5: with gentle guidance from the White House. Hey, let's, you know,

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Speaker 5: pull back on killing AID workers, and that's where you

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Speaker 5: end up. So it's like, not only is it awful

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Speaker 5: and tragic, it's also just glaringly dishonest and disorganized. The

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Speaker 5: level of like incompetence when you have a helicopter firing

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Speaker 5: on their own soldiers, I mean, it's just and.

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Speaker 6: If the if the AID community believed that it was

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Speaker 6: a fluke kind of tragic accident, they would not be

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Speaker 6: withdrawing all of their personnel from this situation.

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Speaker 3: Like their their blunt reaction to this, Yeah.

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Speaker 6: That's true, shows that they believe that this is deliberate.

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Speaker 5: As Barack Revied wrote in that Axios article, the Amoradi's

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Speaker 5: handled much of the coordination with the Israeli government for

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Speaker 5: the humanitarian mission, which has delivered tons of supplies to

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Speaker 5: the enclave Viership from Cyprus over the past few weeks.

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Speaker 5: So the emioradis backing out. Is it's not just you know,

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Speaker 5: some random country that said no, I mean, there's a

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Speaker 5: huge component.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And they're the ones that Israel's always thinking is

404
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Speaker 6: going to bail them out in the end, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 6: who's going to reconstruct this after we've destroyed it? Oh,

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Speaker 6: we'll get the Amoradis in Saudis to do that. You know,

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Speaker 6: you've got Sullivan meeting with the Saudis now, pushing this

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Speaker 6: delusional fantasy that they're going to come to some mega

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Speaker 6: deal that involves Israeli normalization without without any progress toward

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Speaker 6: resolving the question of the Palestinians, beyond simply annihilating them all.

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Speaker 5: Rent, here's some interesting actually reports with about the press. Actually,

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Speaker 5: so this is net and Yahoo. We can go to

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Speaker 5: this is eight net and Yahoo again. This is translated

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Speaker 5: by Google said al Jazeera, this is a tweet harmed Israeli.

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Speaker 5: Israel security actively participated in the October seventh massacre and

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Speaker 5: exided against IDF students soldiers. It is time to remove

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Speaker 5: the soho far of Hamas from our country. The terrorist

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Speaker 5: channel Al Jazira no longer broadcast from Israel.

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Speaker 4: I intend to act immediately in.

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Speaker 5: Accordance with the new law to stop the channel's activity. Ryan,

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Speaker 5: you know whatever I mean, It's true. Al Jazeera is

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Speaker 5: absolutely an arm of the Katari government. There's no question

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Speaker 5: about it.

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Speaker 3: Funded by the Katari government. R.

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Speaker 13: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And that doesn't mean I mean I actually read

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Speaker 5: Al Jazeera a lot throughout this conflict.

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Speaker 4: I found it fairly helpful.

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Speaker 5: It's somewhat interesting that NETANYAHUU is just now cracking down

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Speaker 5: on Al Jazeer because it kind of gets to what

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Speaker 5: we were just talking to talking about and how Israel

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Speaker 5: wants to sort of maintain the moral high ground and

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Speaker 5: puts a lot of effort into even just naturally the

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Speaker 5: propaganda of maintaining the moral high ground. I can't believe

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Speaker 5: they allowed Aljazeera actually to operate in Israel this long

436
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Speaker 5: to be honest.

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Speaker 6: Well, Israel wants normal relations with the wealthy golf countries. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: and so just banning one of the most popular news

439
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Speaker 6: channels in the world is a step is a step

440
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Speaker 6: against that. Israel has already basically made it impossible for

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Speaker 6: Western media to operate inside Gossa. Al Jazeera is to

442
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 6: the extent that it's it is a Western news out

443
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 6: in the sense that people in the West are familiar

444
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 6: with it. People in the West go on it. It

445
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 6: has it has an office here in Washington, d C.

446
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 6: You know, it's it's it's kind of a known quantity

447
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 6: in the way that some other kind of Middle Eastern

448
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 6: news news networks aren't. And so Al Jazeer was really

449
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 6: the only well resourced news outlet with that was watched

450
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 6: by Westerners in Gaza. And now the CONEZA has passed

451
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 6: this law and you know who saying is going to

452
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,959
Speaker 6: enforce it, that's gonna aband them. It's not entirely clear

453
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 6: how that affects their ability to operate inside Gaza.

454
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 13: Uh.

455
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 6: Al Jazeera reporters do coordinate with the I d F

456
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 6: when they're going to go, you know, to different areas.

457
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 6: Sometimes that coordination UH has led to them being killed

458
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 6: as the intercept we've we've reported on on some of

459
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 6: that and that, and the id F has then also

460
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 6: you know, dragged its feet in allowing kind of rescue

461
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 6: personnel to get to in the case of the Al

462
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 6: Jazeera cameraman and reporter that died back after December. Back

463
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 6: in December, does this mean that Israel will now consider

464
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 6: it all Al Jazeera correspondence kind of like fair game

465
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 6: in their in their kill zones in Gaza.

466
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 3: I've reached out to Aljazeera.

467
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 6: I don't have an answer back on what they understand

468
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 6: the new laws effectively, But people who have not been

469
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 6: following this clothes you might not realize that Israel, which

470
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 6: continues to call itself, you know, the only democracy in

471
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 6: the Middle East has some of the h has has

472
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 6: censorship laws that are as aggressive as anywhere in the world.

473
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 6: Like you can be arrested for reading different news outlets,

474
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 6: but you can go to jail for reading different telegram channels,

475
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 6: for commenting or liking or even just being subscribed to

476
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 6: a particular channel anything. And that's what what they describe

477
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 6: as kind of terrorist sympathizing or terrorist supporting. But they

478
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 6: consider anything basically affiliated with Palestinians to be terrorist sympathizing.

479
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 5: It's absolutely also true that Cutter has housed some hamas leadership.

480
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 3: Well they do. That's where the negotiations are happening.

481
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, but even before I mean that you had

482
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 5: Hummas leadership.

483
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 6: The Taliban's there, like Cutter is like the Switzerland of

484
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 6: the Middle East. When there's a crisis, that's everybody goes

485
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 6: to Doha. And like the US begged actually Doha to

486
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 6: allow the Taliban, for instance, to have its headquarters there

487
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 6: so that we could negotiate with Taliban, like you need

488
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 6: somewhere for that to happen, and so Kutter has been

489
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 6: the country that's been willing to do that. It also

490
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 6: has a base of ten thousand American troops, so it's

491
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 6: not as if it's like a just a nest of terrorists.

492
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 5: It's exactly what well.

493
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 3: Actually it is a American once.

494
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 5: Yes, so the Israeli law interestingly, and again they're making

495
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 5: this argument that it al Jazeerra poses a significant threat

496
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 5: to state security, and it's just I don't want to

497
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 5: bring TikTok into this, but it does sort of echo

498
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 5: some of the conversations about obviously they're involved in a

499
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 5: hot war and we're sort of involved in a cold

500
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 5: war with China. But yes, cracking down on speech when

501
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 5: conflict boils to the surface, is.

502
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 4: You understand from.

503
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 5: The perspective of security, why yeah, oh sure, free speech

504
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 5: is harmful to security. You obviously have to have red lines.

505
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 6: And to show that this is really not about who's

506
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 6: funding it, and it's about what they're saying. We can

507
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 6: look at this Channel thirteen report that aired yesterday, absolutely

508
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 6: unhinged and hysterical. So if you want to read it,

509
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 6: you can read the translation of it here. This is

510
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 6: a Hebrew language report about a young reporter named Eunice

511
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 6: to Rawi, who if you are following this conflict.

512
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: You have problems his work.

513
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 6: He and others have done absolutely essential work of just

514
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 6: following IDF soldiers, tiktoks and other social media accounts and

515
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 6: finding the evidence of war crimes that they post themselves

516
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 6: and then reposting that but taking it out of the

517
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 6: context of them bragging about it to their friends. So

518
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 6: they did this long investigative report naming this guy, essentially

519
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 6: trying to put a target on his back. And what's

520
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 6: amazing about the report, and you can find it on

521
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 6: Unic's Twitter account, is that they don't identify a single

522
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 6: fact that he got wrong. Ever, like, no, you would

523
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 6: think that, okay, because he's done dozens and dozens of

524
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 6: these at this point, most of the ones that you've

525
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 6: probably seen, these tiktoks of them wearing women's underwear or

526
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 6: blowing up a mosque, or riding around in little bicycles

527
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 6: or grabbing a trophy, or as the one we just showed,

528
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 6: the French National admitting to having just tortured to detain

529
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 6: eee like.

530
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 3: Those those are those are his?

531
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 6: You would you would think that there'd be one case

532
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 6: of mistaken identity or something that an entire investigative news

533
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 6: outfit at Channel thirteen could find to kind of undermine

534
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 6: his work.

535
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: They found nothing.

536
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 6: Instead, what they found are IDF soldiers who say that

537
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 6: they have been bullied as a result of him posting

538
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 6: the evidence of their either war crimes or despicable behavior,

539
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 6: because what they quibble a lot with the definition of

540
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 6: what a war crime is. Fine, call the like parading

541
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 6: around in the in the panies of you know, a

542
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 6: displaced person. Call it despicable, they call it. Call it

543
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 6: whatever you want, and we can play this the second part. Here,

544
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 6: here's the here's the French National complaining, says, complaining that

545
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 6: like his his his mission of torture is now causing

546
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 6: people like to say mean things to him online online.

547
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 6: I'm being threatened with all sorts of lawsuits and an

548
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 6: international court, but I know it's one big bs. They

549
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 6: marked my nephew who lives in France and his family

550
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 6: because it's easy to turn.

551
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: The hate towards him.

552
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 6: Now, I'd say, look, leave his nephew alone, leave his

553
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 6: family alone. But this soldier himself to be complaining that

554
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 6: he's now potentially facing prosecution in the international Criminal court

555
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 6: or prosecution back in France because Unice exposed his admission

556
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 6: of torture. And also, all units did is take a

557
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 6: public post and share it elsewhere, like the French national

558
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 6: with the IDF is the one who decided to commit

559
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 6: torture and then post about it, or if he didn't

560
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 6: torture the guy, he then lied about having just tortured

561
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 6: somebody on his own social media.

562
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: And so.

563
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 6: I think what this shows is that yes, they don't

564
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 6: like Al Jazeera, but it's not because of how Al

565
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 6: Jazera is financed.

566
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: Unus is not getting cutter funding.

567
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 6: He's just He's just a guy who's good at using

568
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 6: social media and has been dedicated in an impressive way

569
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 6: to this craft. I've I've worked with him in the past.

570
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 6: We've we've worked on some stories together. We haven't ended

571
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 6: up publishing any yet. Over at the intercept that I

572
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 6: hope we do. He's done, He's done incredible work, and

573
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 6: as a journalist, I think we all need to stand

574
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 6: by him and condemn these uh, these this type of

575
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 6: Channel thirteen threat unless they've got something like they have,

576
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 6: they have nothing if they if they said, okay, this

577
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 6: reporting was flawed in these ways, then fine. But to

578
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 6: say it's unfair that because of unice AS reporting, the

579
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 6: International Criminal Court is looking into this French national Yeah,

580
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 6: that's you know, your consequences actions meaning your consequences or whatever.

581
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, to your point about Al Jazeera, I mean, I

582
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 5: think they may genuinely care about the source of funding,

583
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 5: but it seems as though the priority is cracking down

584
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: basically ran on dissent like it's a it's a question

585
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 5: of and again, like like I said before, yes, from

586
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 5: a security pure security perspective, speech and reporting and journalism

587
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 5: is sure. It's a threat to security. Right, that's you know,

588
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 5: what we have though, are in democracy is red lines

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 5: that protect your ability to speak, even if so that

590
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 5: it doesn't allow for fascist total control of everything, and so, yeah,

591
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 5: huge concern. It'll be interesting when John kirbyes to answer

592
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 5: questions about that going forward. I think the White House,

593
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 5: I think Matt Miller actually said basically, they support freedom

594
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 5: of the press, and basically the implication was that they

595
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 5: don't support cracking down on al Jazierra from Israel's point.

596
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: Back here in the.

597
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 6: United States, at least voters have a way to express

598
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 6: their anger.

599
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: That's a good what's going on here?

600
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 6: So Hillary Clinton appeared on a late night program to

601
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 6: talk about the way that here in the US, the

602
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 6: world cradle of democracy, we have a way to work

603
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 6: through these very complex issues.

604
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: Let's let's roll Hillary here. It's Biden versus Trump. We

605
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: know that is it is.

606
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 4: What do you say to voters who are upset that

607
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 4: those are the two choices?

608
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 14: Get over yourself, those are the two choices, right, and yeah,

609
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 14: you know, it's kind of like one is old and

610
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 14: effective and compassionate, has a heart and really cares about people,

611
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 14: and one is old and has been charged with ninety

612
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 14: one felonies.

613
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, I.

614
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 14: Don't I don't understand why this is even a hard choice.

615
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 5: Really, I don't understand it.

616
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 14: But we have to go through the election and hopefully

617
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 14: people will realize what's at stake, because it's an existential

618
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 14: question what kind of country we're going to have, what

619
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 14: kind of democracy we're going to have, And people who

620
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 14: blow that off are not paying attention because it's not

621
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 14: like Trump has an his empowerers, his allies are not

622
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 14: telling us what they want to do. I mean, they're

623
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 14: pretty clear about what kind of country they want.

624
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 5: So if you are not planning to vote because you

625
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 5: don't like either choice, or maybe you're planning to vote

626
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 5: for RFK Junior, according to Hillary Clinton, you're simply not

627
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 5: paying attention. She doesn't understand why this is even a

628
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 5: hard choice. That's a direct quote from her. I had

629
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 5: the pleasure of watching the entire interview Ryan just for

630
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 5: the sake of hashtag journalism. And towards the end of it,

631
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 5: she's promoting this new.

632
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: Broadway place that.

633
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 5: She produced about the Suffragette movement, and Jimmy Fallon is

634
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 5: lavishing her with these kind words, noting that you know,

635
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 5: when she goes to a Broadway place, she gets a

636
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 5: standing ovation. This is a direct quote from Fallin. He

637
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 5: says it was a pleasure, it was an honor to

638
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 5: sit next to you at some Broadway production and it's

639
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 5: like total State TV, like North Korea, while she's patronizing

640
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 5: voters who don't want to pick between Donald Trump or

641
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 5: Joe Biden as people who are just they're simply not

642
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 5: paying attention. They don't you get why this isn't a

643
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 5: hard choice. It's very very easy to choose between Joe

644
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 5: Biden and Donald Trump, don't you see? They're so very different, And.

645
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 6: A huge portion of the Democratic electorate disagrees. And we

646
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 6: had elections last night that showed that we had polling

647
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 6: going into those elections that showed that it was going

648
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 6: to be ugly for Democrats. So we can put up

649
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 6: this piece from my colleague Prem Talker over at the Intercept.

650
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 3: I checked.

651
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 6: People should go check this one out, but the headline

652
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 6: here so you can find it. One in five Wisconsin

653
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 6: Democrats said Gaza war will impact their primary vote in

654
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 6: that he has an amazing cross tab of a poll.

655
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 6: I've never seen anything like it. It said voters under

656
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 6: twenty nine supported an immediate and permanent ceasefire by what

657
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 6: one hundred percent?

658
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 5: I had to double check that one because I've never

659
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 5: seen it. Not that I doubt that that's true, but

660
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 5: I've ever seen it, Like you.

661
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 6: Said, I've never seen anything like that, not even a one,

662
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 6: not sure, like just one hundred, one hundred percent.

663
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 3: And so so last night, if we can jump to although.

664
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 5: By the way, that poll was commissioned by listening to Wisconsin.

665
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 5: As the intercept story notes, it's a campaign to mobilized

666
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 5: protest votes during the battleground states primary in order to

667
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 5: push the White House to change course. The other thing

668
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 5: the Intercept story notes is that in twenty twenty, Biden

669
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 5: one was constant by some twenty thousand votes, which is

670
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 5: actually a smaller margin than Trump won by in twenty sixteen.

671
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 6: Right, And so if we can actually control them, jump

672
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 6: to jump to B five. With a decent amount of

673
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 6: the vote reporting, last night, it looked like that the

674
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 6: uninstructed vote was going to at least hit thirty thousand, which,

675
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 6: as you said, is fifty percent more than the entire

676
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 6: margin by which Biden beat Trump in twenty twenty. Now

677
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 6: that fuller results are in, it's much closer to fifty

678
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 6: thousand people came out and voted uninstructed. So these are

679
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 6: people who are paying enough attention to know that if

680
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 6: they vote uninstructed.

681
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: This is what it means. That's enough people to throw

682
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: the election to Trump. People who are screaming warning.

683
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 6: And what the organizers have said here is that despite

684
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 6: all the heat that they're taking from Democratic Party officials

685
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 6: for what they're doing, most of these folks might you know,

686
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 6: we're very close to lost by what they're seeing Biden

687
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 6: do in Gaza. What this is doing is giving them

688
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 6: an opportunity to have their voice heard one last time.

689
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 6: And I don't know if there's anything Biden can do

690
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 6: at this point to act on it, but at least

691
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 6: they're giving him a chance. They're saying, look, we're still

692
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 6: participating in this process that is leading to genocide at

693
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 6: the moment, but we're still participating it because we have

694
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 6: some hope that our voice is going to lend some

695
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 6: power to the that is fighting to end this genocide.

696
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 3: You know, whether it.

697
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 6: Can happen between now and the election, I don't know,

698
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 6: but you know that it wasn't just Wisconsin either. This

699
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 6: is in the context of new polling showing Trump with

700
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 6: a fairly comfortable lead in six of seven swing states,

701
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 6: So it's not as if Biden is sitting on a

702
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 6: comfortable margin where he can say, you know what, fifty

703
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 6: thousand people in Wisconsin can go pound sand right.

704
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 5: And that's where to your point, you know, whether or

705
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 5: not Hillary Clinton agrees on the sort of definitional question

706
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 5: of genocide or Joe Biden agrees on that question, they

707
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 5: are actually hurting their chances by again Hillary Clinton going

708
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 5: out there and being incredibly flippant about how people don't understand,

709
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 5: they're not paying attention. It's not a hard choice. Since

710
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, that has been exactly what has screwed Democrats

711
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 5: over and over again in some of these close competitions.

712
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 5: That's exactly the wrong way to treat voters who do

713
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: feel and for some genuine, intellectually defensible reasons, that the

714
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 5: choice is absolutely a difficult one between Trump and Biden,

715
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 5: between Trump Biden, RFK Junior, or between just not voting.

716
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 5: So to treat people like their concerns aren't serious is

717
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 5: how you alienate them further and further. And it's something

718
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 5: that Democrats have been doing for almost a decade now.

719
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 5: On that Trump question in particular, that Hillary Clinton once

720
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 5: again brought up about how, yeah, he's just he's so unhinged.

721
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: Well, people think that about Joe Biden too.

722
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 5: For what it's worth, that Trump might be temperamentally transparently

723
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 5: more of a mad man, but that Joe Biden policy

724
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 5: wise acts just as much, if not more, like a

725
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 5: mad man. And that's a perfectly intellectually defensible position. She

726
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 5: could have a long, interesting conversation with someone about it,

727
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 5: but instead, when she's in public, she's just saying.

728
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 4: Nope, you're not paying attention.

729
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 5: You're too dumb, You're too dumb and lazy to figure

730
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 5: this one out. It's just idiotic as a strategy, and

731
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 5: it's going to make things much much worse for them.

732
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 6: And in New York, the organizers were pushing people to

733
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 6: do a blank ballot.

734
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: Probably a bunch of people watching this did that. We

735
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: don't have final results on that.

736
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 6: New York takes several years to count its votes.

737
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 5: So the traditional year's long vote count.

738
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, we'll know by twenty twenty nine. You know how

739
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 6: that went yesterday. But let's talk about two interesting, actual

740
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 6: non symbolic elections. One we'll get get Let's let's get

741
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 6: to the Zuckerberg one in a second. But first, you

742
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 6: did you see the one in where Milwaukee and the

743
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 6: surrounding area was asked if they wanted to spend hundreds

744
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 6: of millions of more dollars on education. Tell us about this,

745
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 6: right they won? Yeah, I mean it's looking like it's

746
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 6: gonna win. Right, It's like fifty to fifty one percent

747
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 6: right now.

748
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: I don't think we can. I don't think we can

749
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 3: call it yet.

750
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 6: But basically it asked, you know, for the purpose of,

751
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 6: you know, maintaining high teacher quality, arts, sciences.

752
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 3: Et cetera.

753
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 6: Are we do, you know, can the Milwaukee and the

754
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 6: surrounding area kind of bust its budget and spend more

755
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 6: on education?

756
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 5: Fifty one to forty nine is the number as of

757
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 5: right now.

758
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: Team J four pretty solid at this point.

759
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, they'll pay two hundred and sixteen dollars more in

760
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 5: taxes for every one hundred thousand dollars of their homes value.

761
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 5: That's Milwaukee Public Schools. Milwaukee Public Schools as a Team

762
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 5: J four story rightfully notes it's facing a two hundred

763
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 5: million dollar budget deficit for the next school year. That

764
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 5: school district is an abject disaster. I'm not from Milwaukee.

765
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 5: I'm from outside of Milwaukee, but just about everybody can

766
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 5: acknowledge the deep, deep problems in Milwaukee Public schools. Milwaukee

767
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 5: in general is not in a great place right now,

768
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 5: and Milwaukee Public schools are suffering enormously. Obviously, there's some

769
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 5: real fallout from the pandemic in terms of learning.

770
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 4: That increasingly is obvious.

771
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 5: Ryan and I could probably debate the question of what

772
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 5: teachers unions have done to Milwaukee Public schools. I'm sure

773
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 5: we disagree on that, but it's another really, I mean serious,

774
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 5: The school district isn't a world of hurt, so it's

775
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 5: not party surprise, right.

776
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 6: Money alone doesn't solve the problems, but taking money, taking

777
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 6: significant amounts of money away certainly doesn't help.

778
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 5: You'd see where I mean, it's obviously close, but you

779
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 5: can certainly see where people were favorable to it. And

780
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 5: interestingly enough, Wisconsin as a whole, not just Milwaukee, but

781
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 5: the state as a whole approved Question one last night.

782
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 3: We just we just had that one up, so we

783
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: can put question one back up.

784
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 5: So, yeah, question is amendment that stipulates quote, private donations

785
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 5: and grants may not be applied for, accepted, expended, or

786
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 5: used in connection with the conduct of any primary election

787
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 5: or referendum. Question two, which also again you can see

788
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 5: Question one, you can see. The Milwaukee area, which voted

789
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 5: on the MPs question voted against question one, but ustion

790
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 5: two is that it requires that quote only election officials

791
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 5: designated by law may perform tasks in the conduct of primaries, elections,

792
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 5: and referendums.

793
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 4: That one also passed.

794
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 5: And Ryan, I am really curious for your thoughts on this,

795
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 5: because I was trying to like the election issue, even

796
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 5: though my own publication covers it really closely. For me,

797
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 5: it always just made my eyes kind of glaze over,

798
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 5: And it seems like it's one of those things that

799
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 5: is owned in many cases by like outright crazy people

800
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 5: are talking about it all the time. You're just like

801
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 5: calm down, like it's just everyone relaxed here. But when

802
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 5: you dig into what happened with Mark Zuckerberg's what's the

803
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 5: it's like CTCL the acronym the group that he at

804
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 5: least ostensibly was founded to help people vote during the pandemic.

805
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 5: When you look at what they did with that billion,

806
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 5: those billions of dollars, I imagine if the Koch Brothers,

807
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 5: at the height of their sort of limited government giving

808
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 5: during the Tea Party era, had done what Mark's Zuckerberg did,

809
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 5: or another like as Sheldon Adelson er, now a Miriam

810
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: Adelson had did what Mark Zuckerberg did, if she did

811
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 5: that in twenty twenty four or twenty twenty eight. For example,

812
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 5: just in Wisconsin, Mark Zuckerberg's group gave out thirty one grants,

813
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 5: twenty eight went to cities, Twenty of those cities voted

814
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 5: for Biden, and only eight ultimately voted for Donald Trump.

815
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 5: So basically, he's flooding the zone with money and with

816
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 5: aid to counties that are almost certainly going to go

817
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 5: for Biden, not like necessarily swing counties, but overwhelmingly counties

818
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 5: that are going to go to Biden. And as Katie

819
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 5: Porter said cal about her own race in the California

820
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 5: Senate primary, looks a whole lot like rigging an election

821
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 5: where you can just have billionaires flooding the zone with

822
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 5: money to swing different districts. I don't like it. So

823
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 5: I thought this was actually fantastic. I thought it was worded.

824
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 5: Both questions were worded very tightly. Ryan, What did you

825
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 5: make of it?

826
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 6: I mean, I agree on the principle that the public

827
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 6: should be funding at elections, not not private folks. I

828
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 6: don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the tears

829
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 6: of Republicans in Wisconsin because you know, they jerrymannered, they

830
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 6: took over the state, they jerrymanner the heck out of it,

831
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 6: and then they tried to basically defund the election apparatus

832
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 6: and make it really difficult for people in Wisconsin cities

833
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 6: to vote. And then they're like, hey, wait a minute,

834
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 6: goes back. We're trying to make it really hard for

835
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 6: people in cities to vote. Now you're coming in and

836
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 6: making it easy again for them to vote.

837
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 3: That's completely unfair.

838
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 6: So yeah, I agree the public should finance elections, but

839
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 6: also kind of Republicans brought it on themselves with their

840
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 6: like really really partisan gutting of the election, of the

841
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 6: election system, election apparatus, and kind of it like made

842
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 6: space for somebody like a Zuckerberg to come in and

843
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 6: try to fix it.

844
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 3: So let's just let's just have.

845
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 6: Functional elections, Like we're more than two hundred years into

846
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 6: this democratic experiment here, because in the United States of America.

847
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 3: Let's let's just like in Brazil, they know the.

848
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 6: Results by like nine pm every night, well on an

849
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 6: election night, and and they're like and they're they're audited

850
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 6: they're checked like it's it's legit, like this can be done.

851
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 5: Of course it can be done, but we're so Yeah,

852
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 5: to your point, we're so owned by private interests that

853
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 5: have co opted the system, whether it's from the left

854
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 5: or the right. And you know, I actually think this

855
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 5: is a great measure in and of itself, just because

856
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 5: it prevents people from the left or from the right

857
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 5: from doing this in the future. Zuckerberg replicated what happened

858
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 5: not just in Wisconsin, but actually in some of those

859
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,919
Speaker 5: swing states that we were showing are really really tight

860
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 5: races right now. So to some extent, you know, if

861
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 5: you're declaring, you know, unlimited money and politics, and you

862
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 5: have the way that like the CTCL operated, and you're saying,

863
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 5: we're not going to put any limits on that, and

864
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 5: you can just sort of.

865
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 4: Do it, it could.

866
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 5: Happen in different ways than just what the CTCL did.

867
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 5: There could be different that can be exploited. I mean,

868
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 5: they really pioneered a new method of kind of electioneering

869
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty. So I think to your point, yeah,

870
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 5: it's there have to be dramatic questions about how the

871
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 5: elections are run in this country.

872
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 6: Second, the second one, I don't know anything about it.

873
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 6: You can't have poll workers who are volunteers. Now, like

874
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 6: that feels that can't be right.

875
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 5: Well, so it was about curating ballots, and that's a

876
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 5: kind of a different can of worms. If you're sort

877
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 5: of funding ballot curation.

878
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 6: Correct, is that when you go door to door and

879
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 6: pick up ballots? Yeah, for people?

880
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 5: Right, So if you're doing it, and you're allowing some

881
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 5: states allow volunteers to do it. Actually, my boss Molly

882
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 5: having Way wrote a great book about this called Rigged,

883
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 5: which a lot of people would would look at and

884
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 5: be like on the left, they woul look at them

885
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 5: and be like this is crazy, like blah blah.

886
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 4: You read the book.

887
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 5: There's basically been no substantive pushback to it at all.

888
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 5: It's super interesting, and you see, yeah, some of these

889
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 5: processes like ballat curation that you heard nothing about in

890
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 5: the media were being funded in heavy dumb districts by

891
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 5: things like Zuckerberg and by people who are not election

892
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 5: officials that are volunteers. And just if you're uncomfortable about

893
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 5: the process of somebody who's vote actually making it to

894
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 5: the counting position, or even if you're not that book

895
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 5: the book made me personally very uncomfortable with the laws

896
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 5: and the way that it's run in some states. But

897
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 5: Ryan partially that's also the problem is like our system

898
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 5: of government and federalism means that we have a patchwork

899
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 5: collection laws based on different states decisions to run their elections.

900
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 5: So it's just a blast.

901
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 6: Lena Kahn appeared on John Stewart's show, The Daily Show.

902
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 5: Finally, she appeared on John Stewart's show now that he's

903
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 5: not at Apple, which is what we're going to get into.

904
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 6: And so John Stewart revealed on during this interview with

905
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 6: Lena Cohn that Apple had effectively blocked him from having

906
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 6: her on. Let's play a little bit of this this

907
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 6: back and forth with John Stuart Lena Khan.

908
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 13: It's already being consolidated. Apple has bought thirty AI models.

909
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 13: Microsoft is pride bout, Google has bought They all buy

910
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 13: AI startups and put them behind their paywell, and they're

911
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 13: already having an arms race to see who will be

912
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 13: either the monopoly or this will be in oha. Godly,

913
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 13: I got to tell you I wanted to have you

914
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 13: on a podcast, and Apple asked us not to do it.

915
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 3: To have you.

916
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 13: They literally said please don't talk to her having nothing

917
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 13: to do with what you do for a living. I

918
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 13: think they just I didn't think they cared for you,

919
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 13: is what happened. They wouldn't, they didn't, They wouldn't let

920
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 13: us do even that dumb thing we just did in

921
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 13: the first Act on AI, Like, what is that sensitivity?

922
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 13: Why are they so afraid to even have these conversations

923
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 13: out in the public sphere.

924
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: I think it just shows one of the dangers of

925
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: what happens when you concentrate so much power and so

926
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: much decision making in a small number of companies. I mean,

927
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: going back all the way to the founding, there was

928
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 1: a recognition that in the same way that you need

929
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: the Constitution to create checks and balances in our political sphere,

930
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: you also needed the anti trust and anti monopoly laws

931
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: to safeguard against concentration and economic power, because you don't

932
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: want an autocrat of trade in the same way that

933
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: you don't want a monarch.

934
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 6: Apple disagrees, Yes, exactly so. First of all, Lenakhon for President.

935
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 6: Second of all, Luther Lowe, you can put this up here,

936
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 6: point it out that part of the DOJ's suit against

937
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 6: Apple says, quote Apple's conduct extends beyond just monopoly profits

938
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 6: and even affects the flow of speech. For example, Apple

939
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 6: is rapidly expanding its role as a TV and movie

940
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 6: producer and had exercised that role to control content. This

941
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 6: was filedbas This was filed before they knew the lengths

942
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 6: to which they were going to control what John Stewart

943
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 6: was able to put on his podcast, which he's talked

944
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 6: about a little bit since since.

945
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: Then in reference to China, right, China.

946
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 6: And yeah and just yeah, it sounds like anything that

947
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 6: was encroaching on their interests.

948
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 5: And I think it was Matt Stoler obviously who made

949
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 5: the point about you know, here's here's John Stewart on

950
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 5: Paramount on Paramount Network then saying what he couldn't do

951
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 5: on Apple. So you know, some might say, oh, this

952
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 5: is this is perfect competition. You see how it works.

953
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 5: But imagine if John Stewart wasn't John Stuart would Paramount

954
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 5: allow John's a lesser known John Stewart who wanted to

955
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 5: interview Alena Khan to interview Alena.

956
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 6: Con I thought Paramount is for sale. There's that I'm

957
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 6: going to buy that Apple.

958
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a good question, but I think there's There's

959
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 5: also something even more interesting, which is what happened with

960
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 5: Parlor in the App Store after January sixth, is that

961
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,839
Speaker 5: in terms of Apple monitoring and controlling speech, the app

962
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 5: Store is unquestionably to do oppoly. That was hilarious, I mean,

963
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 5: arguably a monopoly. If you have an iPhone, you have

964
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 5: to use the app store.

965
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 6: January sixth was basically organized on Facebook, Facebook groups, and afterwards,

966
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 6: right there were a couple of Parlor images that circulated

967
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 6: to a Facebook app WhatsApp, which is just text messaging

968
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 6: in a band, text messaging. And so yeah, then they

969
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 6: just the Apple just kicked kicked Trump, you know, they

970
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 6: all kicked Trump off their platforms, and then they kicked

971
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 6: Parlor off, which was hilarious because a like I said,

972
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 6: it was mostly organized on Facebook, not Parlor Parlor also,

973
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 6: but it was tiny.

974
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 3: Like it would have happened with or without Parlor.

975
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 6: But the other ironic part of kicking Parlor out was

976
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 6: that the entire argument about cancel culture had been that, Okay, look,

977
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 6: you got kicked off Facebook. You don't like it, go

978
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 6: start your own platform. Facebook's a private platform, they make

979
00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 6: their own rules.

980
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 3: So some naive folks.

981
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,760
Speaker 6: You know, took them at their word, and we're like, Okay,

982
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 6: we will go build our own platform. You don't you

983
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 6: don't want us on yours, We'll go build our own.

984
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 6: And they're like, oh yeah, not like that. We're nuking

985
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 6: your entire platform. Yeah yeah, not defending the people on

986
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 6: Parlor or anything like that.

987
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 3: That's not the point. You don't have to Yeah, the point.

988
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 6: The point is they were told to go create their

989
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 6: own platform if they didn't like the rules of the

990
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 6: other private platforms and then were new anyway, and that.

991
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 5: Had nothing to do This is the point in the

992
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 5: DOJ suit. This is the point that Stoler makes, and

993
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 5: this is the point that Lena Khan is making that

994
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 5: had nothing to do with Apple's business. Apple didn't get

995
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 5: rid of Parlor for business reasons. They might have thought

996
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 5: it was good PR, better pr than allowing Parlor to

997
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 5: sit there and get questions from Ben freaking Collins over

998
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 5: at NBC about how they're just you know, fueling disinformation

999
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 5: because they allow a tiny app to remain on the

1000
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 5: App Store. So maybe you can make the argument I

1001
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 5: think it was.

1002
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 6: For business reasons, because I think the business reason was

1003
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 6: deflect attention to face, defect, regulatory attention away from Facebook

1004
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 6: and their own platforms over to Parlor so that we

1005
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 6: solve the problem.

1006
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 5: I mean, there there's an argument, but they're doing that ultimately.

1007
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,439
Speaker 5: That's even that is rooted in political reasons, I guess.

1008
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 6: But once you're a monopoly, politics and business are the

1009
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 6: same thing, exactly.

1010
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's exactly the point that John Stewart and

1011
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 5: Lina Kahn are making.

1012
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 4: And Lena Khan.

1013
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 5: Really, I'm sure we have some listeners and viewers who

1014
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 5: are in businesses where Lena Khan is like treated as

1015
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 5: public enemy number one. If you talk to people who

1016
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 5: work in those sectors, it is the specter of Lena Khan.

1017
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 5: Khan looms so large. There's fury at Lena Khan and

1018
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 5: people who work in like M and A businesses.

1019
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 6: There exactly people who do the mergers, the people who

1020
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 6: do the mergers, and the executives who benefit benefit from

1021
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 6: the mergers hate her.

1022
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 3: But everybody else, even at.

1023
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 6: Those companies, is better off because what are those mergers

1024
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 6: lead to enormous amounts of layoffs and then and then

1025
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 6: consolidation of the company, which means workers get treated worse

1026
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 6: and customers get treated worse, and suppliers get treated worse.

1027
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: And Lena Kon lays.

1028
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,839
Speaker 6: All this out in a really aerad way in that

1029
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 6: interview with with John Stewart, and it also hurts. It

1030
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:18,479
Speaker 6: turns out shareholders like shareholders, are noticing that when these

1031
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 6: mergers are blocked by either by Lenacon or by the

1032
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 6: specter of Lena Khan, that both companies' share prices go

1033
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 6: up and there and there are so many cases of

1034
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 6: this that that people are able to point to now

1035
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 6: that it is becoming clear that, oh, it turns out

1036
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 6: it is a collusion of executives who are defrauding workers, customers,

1037
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 6: suppliers and shareholders and just hoarding wealth for themselves.

1038
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 5: There was an amazing sort of green light for M

1039
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 5: and A during the Obama administration the Trump administration, especially

1040
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 5: in taking media, and man, is it amazing how sensitive

1041
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 5: people in those positions have been about It's not amazing.

1042
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 6: I mean, two of my job was to do mergers.

1043
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 6: I would probably not like Lena Khan. On the other hand,

1044
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 6: she's making a lot of defense business for you.

1045
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 5: And people might wonder, people might wonder, you know, what, hey,

1046
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,919
Speaker 5: why is it? Why is Lena Khan's interview on John

1047
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 5: Stewart like Newsworthy, Well, Lena Kahn's tenure at the FTC

1048
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 5: has had pretty sweeping consequences on the economy, and that's

1049
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 5: why they're so sensitive about it, obviously, but the pendulum

1050
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 5: swinging back and sort of having a chilling effect on

1051
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 5: M and A. There are people who hate big tech

1052
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 5: on the right whose offices on Capitol Hill are super

1053
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 5: opposed to Lena Kahn. This is one of the things

1054
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 5: we didn't have enough time to get to with Ted

1055
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 5: Cruz back in the holiday season, because he wrote a

1056
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 5: book basically about about tech, why big Tech. There were

1057
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 5: a lot of parts in the book about why big

1058
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 5: tech is bad and overly consolidated. Ted Cruise is a

1059
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 5: huge opponent of Lena Khan because from a limited government perspective,

1060
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 5: the FTC. I mean, I think a lot of like

1061
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 5: hardcore conservatis would just.

1062
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 4: Get rid of the FTC.

1063
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 5: But the FTC is, you know, very very much a

1064
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 5: sort of encroaching regulator. And you can quibble around the

1065
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 5: edges with what Lena Khan has done, but ultimately, if

1066
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 5: you're worried about consolidation and big tech in baby formula

1067
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 5: and meat packing and all of these different price problems

1068
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 5: that consumers are having. I find it very difficult to

1069
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 5: make the argument that in the big picture, Lena Khan

1070
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 5: is a net negative. I think that's basically insane. I

1071
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 5: think the effect that she has had is clearly in

1072
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 5: that positive, even if from a conservative perspective you can

1073
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 5: quibble with some of the regulatory approaches.

1074
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, and Cruz has flirted with supporting her in different

1075
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 6: ways in the past, and if he has recovered from

1076
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 6: his last interview here, he's welcome to come back on

1077
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 6: the program.

1078
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 5: I think I don't think you had a problem with

1079
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 5: that interview.

1080
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: It was their shilling books and podcast.

1081
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 5: Who who would ever show books aggressively? Not you, Ryan,

1082
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 5: not me.

1083
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 6: The ladies of the view have some thoughts on whether

1084
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 6: or not they're better off than they were four years ago,

1085
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 6: whether you were better off four years ago. A viewer

1086
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 6: of this program flagged this for us and it was like,

1087
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 6: I think you guys will enjoy this one. So let's

1088
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 6: roll a little bit of this clip. Want to get

1089
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 6: Emily's reaction to this.

1090
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 15: I think the Democrats need to do more in getting

1091
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 15: the message out that yes, we actually are better off

1092
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 15: right now because of all of the things that Biden

1093
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 15: has done.

1094
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 5: But I will say this.

1095
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 4: You know, while Trump.

1096
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 15: May have you know, came up with this operation warp Speed,

1097
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 15: which I don't know why he came up with that term.

1098
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 15: I do believe that he is responsible for mishandling the

1099
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 15: pandemic so much that million, over a million Americans died, including.

1100
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 5: My in laws.

1101
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 15: And it is in large part because he had his

1102
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 15: son in law, who shouldn't have been in the White

1103
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 15: House in the first place, handling the response someone with

1104
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 15: absolutely no medical experience, and the one person, doctor Fauci,

1105
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 15: who you think very highly of and he thinks very

1106
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,479
Speaker 15: highly of you, was basically silenced by the White House.

1107
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 16: I know we all vividly do every picture in a mask,

1108
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 16: from work to school to not being able to see family.

1109
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 16: My parents don't live nearby. I can't fly. I mean,

1110
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 16: you couldn't go on trips, and not trips like for fun,

1111
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 16: I just mean literally to get to people you love.

1112
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 16: It was isolating, depressing. So I laughed that someone didn't

1113
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 16: catch that part when they said we're going to go

1114
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 16: out and ask people how were you four years ago?

1115
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 16: That is the time my brain is trying to completely

1116
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 16: block out, like I'm.

1117
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 5: Going to have better reproductive health rights.

1118
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 17: Yes, listen, as black people, we were not in this

1119
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 17: insanity of trying to figure out why our history is

1120
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 17: no longer welcome in the educational system.

1121
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 5: For the record, four years ago, bro hadn't been overturned yet,

1122
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 5: although the judges put in place would be and abortions

1123
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 5: actually have gone up.

1124
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 6: We did make two good points, uh that you know,

1125
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 6: four years ago a Roby Wade was still a long

1126
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 6: land and we didn't have this this this bizarre backlash

1127
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 6: with the books and the like in Florida, Like you've

1128
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 6: got these permission slips, where is it okay for your

1129
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 6: children to be read a book by a black author?

1130
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 3: Stuff like that.

1131
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 5: And there's also like clear pornography in some of those

1132
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 5: libraries that.

1133
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 3: Was there four years ago.

1134
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 5: That's true.

1135
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 3: That true.

1136
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 5: What did Donald Trump do about the porno seem probably.

1137
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 3: Not just fine? So I thought she made some some

1138
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 3: good points on on that one.

1139
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 6: But I think I think the the Democrats effort to

1140
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 6: to do this four years ago thing ah and point

1141
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 6: to the pandemic as a gotcha isn't quite gonna work

1142
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 6: because of, like I think significantly because of people's amnesia,

1143
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 6: like will Full amnesia, like they want to forget what

1144
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 6: that was like April twenty twenty, Yes, horrible, like and

1145
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 6: they as they talk about that program, people couldn't find paper, towels,

1146
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 6: toilet paper, like basic they were there, people like the

1147
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 6: people were dying, people were scared for their lives. Everybody

1148
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 6: was getting hammered by like two in the afternoon. Which

1149
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 6: is fun for like a few days, but then after

1150
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 6: a while, it's like like if you look at if

1151
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 6: you look at alcohol consumption, like it's still up rights

1152
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 6: the data, right, I didn't know that it was.

1153
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 3: It was still up yeah, related the massive spike.

1154
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, over the last five years, it's still up really high.

1155
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 3: Makes sense. It's a bitual, habit forming type of thing.

1156
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 5: Well, and you're talking about a different amnesia than I

1157
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 5: think the Biden campaign is talking about. So that's this

1158
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 5: whole segment was in response to s both the Trump

1159
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 5: and Biden campaigns sparring on this reaganary question of ask

1160
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 5: yourself where you better off four years ago? Because and

1161
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 5: there's polling data, we can put D two up on

1162
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 5: the screen here. This is a Fox News poll from

1163
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 5: just economic conditions you personally, sixty four percent of people

1164
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 5: said negative. Only thirty six percent said their economic conditions

1165
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 5: personally were positive. And that's even higher when you ask

1166
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 5: about the country as a whole. We can move to

1167
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 5: the next element here. Yeah, December, have you been helped

1168
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 5: by President Biden's economic policies? Once again? In December, only

1169
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 5: seventeen percent said they've been helped thirty eight Oh, this

1170
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 5: is December twenty twenty one. Now, last December, forty six

1171
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 5: percent of people said they've been hurt by President Biden's

1172
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 5: economic policies.

1173
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,439
Speaker 4: Only fourteen percent said they've been hurt.

1174
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 5: Now a Fox News poll actually from just a couple

1175
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 5: weeks ago, so March twenty second to twenty second to

1176
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 5: twenty fifth, over half of voters they asked directly, are

1177
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 5: you worse off than you were in twenty twenty? Are

1178
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 5: you better or worse off financially? Was the exact question

1179
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 5: people were asked. This is a registered voters, and only

1180
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 5: about one in five voters Foxting's reported today answered yes.

1181
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 5: According to their latest survey, just twenty two percent said

1182
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 5: that they're better off than four years go. Well more

1183
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 5: than twice that many. Fifty two percent say they are

1184
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 5: worse off. So when you put that question to actual voters,

1185
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 5: not the multimillionaire hosts of the view. The results are

1186
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 5: totally different, and the view was sort of conflating the

1187
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 5: pandemic and all of the other kind of cultural issues.

1188
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 5: The Biden administration, I think, is sort of doing the same.

1189
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 5: I think COVID amnesia, I agree with, is totally real.

1190
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 5: On the other hand, while the rate of inflation may

1191
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 5: be slowing, inflation on some of those prices in and

1192
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,919
Speaker 5: of itself is still higher than it was four years ago.

1193
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 5: So I know the Biden administration and I think they're

1194
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 5: not wrong about people having some amnesia about the early

1195
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 5: days of the pandemic. Trump's mismanagement of the pandemic most

1196
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 5: COVID does, I believe, actually occurred during the Biden administration,

1197
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 5: although they would argue that that was set up by

1198
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 5: mismanagement during the Trump administration. I think most voters, though, aren't.

1199
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 5: They don't have COVID in mind. They don't want to

1200
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 5: think about COVID. To your point, they're voting on their

1201
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 5: financial situation, right.

1202
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 6: And to the extent they're looking around the world too.

1203
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 6: Trump was creating kind of an international incident every other

1204
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 6: day and size and yeah, and leaving people, you know,

1205
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 6: nervous that he's going to like accidentally get into nuclear

1206
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 6: war with North Korea, which currently which apparently gain pretty

1207
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 6: close to happening, but Biden is in you know, too

1208
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 6: hot actual wars in Gahza and in Ukraine. But yes,

1209
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 6: the economic question is is is what people.

1210
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 3: Are thinking of? And I think it just goes back

1211
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 3: to housing and rent.

1212
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 6: Housing and rent is unaffordable and basically food prices went

1213
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 6: up significantly in twenty twenty one and two have that

1214
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 6: has moderated and now wages are generally outpacing the growth

1215
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 6: of inflation. Where it's it's although it's getting close again now,

1216
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 6: but it hasn't. It hasn't gone on long enough so

1217
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 6: that you're better off, so that basically you're further behind

1218
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 6: today than you were four years ago. To me, the

1219
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 6: tragedy of that from a political perspective is that the

1220
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 6: US did better than any other country around the world

1221
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 6: and getting out of the COVID recession and getting out

1222
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 6: of that all with the American Rescue Plan and the

1223
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 6: ira you know, we went from a potential depression to

1224
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 6: the economy surging. The cost was driven primarily by you know,

1225
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 6: supply chain, you know, interruptions from COVID and from the

1226
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 6: from corporations recognizing that they had an opportunity to raise prices.

1227
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 6: And we were pointing that out at the time and

1228
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 6: called conspiracy theorists, but it happened. But the downstream effect

1229
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 6: on people is the same, Like, prices are up and

1230
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 6: Biden's president, and so they're going to link those to

1231
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 6: My fear is that the next time that we face

1232
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 6: a recession or depression like situation, that you're gonna have

1233
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 6: politicians like, wow, we didn't get any credit for that,

1234
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 6: and there was some inflation associated with our response.

1235
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 3: So just let it burn and see what happens.

1236
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, that's certainly possible. And the thing I

1237
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 5: want to add there a couple of different quotes on

1238
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 5: a Navarro at one point during that segment said, you know,

1239
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 5: now she's back to playing words with friends, but during

1240
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 5: the Trump administration she was getting death threats.

1241
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 4: So she just again this was in the.

1242
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 3: Context you can do both today, you can do.

1243
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 5: Both, amazing, but she was this is in the context

1244
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 5: of her talking about voters like your average voter and

1245
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 5: like that there's any resonance between on a Navarro's.

1246
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 4: Experience during the Trump administration.

1247
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 5: Where she just didn't have what like the psychological comfort

1248
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 5: to play words with friends, but now she feels comfortable

1249
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 5: playing words with friends. The idea that she thinks that's

1250
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 5: resonant with other people in the country, I think.

1251
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 6: It's I think there's tens of millions of people are

1252
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 6: well a, they were terrified during the pandemic generally, but

1253
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 6: are terrified of Trump.

1254
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 5: No, I think people are genuinely terrified of Trump. I

1255
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 5: don't disagree with that. And you know, there's obviously something

1256
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 5: to the argument that the chaos in the Trump administration

1257
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 5: that was in some ways fieled by the media, but

1258
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 5: in many ways feel directly by Donald Trump made people uneasy.

1259
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 5: But Ann Navarro saying that she's back to playing words

1260
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 5: with friends because Biden as president kind of for the

1261
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 5: reasons that we talked about in the Hillary Clinton block.

1262
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 5: I mean, maybe there's some wine moms around the country

1263
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 5: with whom that resonates, but I think a lot of

1264
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 5: people are like actually just as scared now under Biden,

1265
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 5: maybe because of the hot wars, maybe because they feel

1266
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 5: what's happening in Israel amounts to ethnic or what's happening

1267
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 5: in Gaza amounts to ethnic cleansing. Maybe because they're terrified

1268
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 5: about the war in Ukraine, dragging American troops ultimately into it,

1269
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 5: or maybe because.

1270
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 6: Respond to the Israel striking its consulate Damascus.

1271
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 5: Or maybe because these pocketbook issues, and you know, also

1272
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 5: could possibly be because of abortion access, abortion lights, which.

1273
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 3: Biden is going to drive so many peoples.

1274
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, agree, agree. And the other one I wanted to

1275
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 5: highlight was Sarah Haynes saying basically that a recovery. She said,

1276
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 5: at one point, you're not going to feel the recovery

1277
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 5: after the Great Depression. It took eleven years. Not super

1278
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 5: comforting to voters in the moment, of course, although.

1279
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 6: That was thanks to Obama like tightening the belt and

1280
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 6: the Tea Party insisting, you know, taking over in twenty ten.

1281
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 5: Oh. She said, great Depression, not recession.

1282
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 3: Oh, great depressions.

1283
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, And then will By Goilberg said, if you

1284
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,439
Speaker 5: were coming from another country, you were not welcome during

1285
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 5: the Trump administration. I don't think that's how most people

1286
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 5: are voting when it comes to the border this time around.

1287
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, certain, Yeah, a new NPR poll, then we'll move on,

1288
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 3: a new MPR poll.

1289
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 6: Marist poll came out this morning and found that yes,

1290
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 6: the top top far and away issue for Republican voters

1291
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 6: was immigration and surging within the po although and that poll,

1292
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 6: by the way, had Biden up two and when you

1293
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 6: put this nationally and then when you included RFK Junior

1294
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 6: and Cornell West and others, he maintained his two point lead.

1295
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 3: So despite the fact that you've got this.

1296
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 6: Wall Street Journal polls showing him Trump up in six

1297
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 6: of seven swing states, you also have this NPR Marris

1298
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 6: poll showing Biden up by two.

1299
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 3: Nobody likes either of these people.

1300
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 6: The NPR poll found that people disliked Trump more than

1301
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 6: they disliked Biden. But also polls are consistently showing that

1302
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 6: people don't think Biden is up to it.

1303
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, well there's that too.

1304
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 3: We didn't even get to that by thirty points or so.

1305
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 6: Another reason people perry Trump how pathetic is that your

1306
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 6: your opponent is Trump, and the question is he was

1307
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 6: more fit to be president and you're losing it by

1308
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 6: double digits.

1309
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 5: And that's another reason to the words with Friends, the

1310
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 5: silly words with friends point. I actually think that's another

1311
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 5: reason that people are super uneasy when there's all of

1312
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 5: these clips of the leader of the free world, an

1313
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:01,720
Speaker 5: office that you maybe they felt until Trump came with

1314
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 5: at least some dignity. And we can go back and argue,

1315
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 5: you know, who initially soiled the dignity of.

1316
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 4: The presidential office.

1317
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 5: But you know, at least until Trump, people felt like,

1318
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:12,680
Speaker 5: you know, this was a sort of sacred space. But

1319
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 5: now Joe Biden's in, they're like slurring his words and

1320
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 5: mixing up everyone every other day. That makes people really

1321
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 5: uneasy too, in the same way that Trump tweeting about

1322
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 5: the size of his nuclear button made people uneasy. So yeah, yeah,

1323
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 5: I mean, I think they're they're so ardently in Biden's corner,

1324
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 5: partisan lee in Biden's corner that it's a bubble. Not

1325
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,639
Speaker 5: that it's surprising to anyone that the view is a bubble,

1326
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 5: but and.

1327
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 6: The answer that question would have to be James Madison, right,

1328
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 6: you think James Madison. I mean, the guy like basically

1329
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 6: eliminated the government. Hell yeah, put together a little tiny

1330
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 6: militia uh so far that then got whooped by the

1331
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 6: British and had the Oval office burned.

1332
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true, that's true.

1333
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 3: That's sullying. Sully the Oval Office.

1334
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 5: Under Trump, the capital sort of was sacked.

1335
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 6: I don't I don't understand how this small government like

1336
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 6: limited Ryan ever, limited government ideology like survived the burning

1337
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 6: of the White House.

1338
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 3: You couldn't eat.

1339
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 5: That's how you limit the government.

1340
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 6: The British Ate literally ate his dinner. His dinner was

1341
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 6: hot on a plate in the White House. They ate it.

1342
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 5: Speaking of the sacred dignity of our offices. Dallas Airport,

1343
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 5: facing the legacy of John Foster Dallas is now coming

1344
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 5: under target for bro Trump Republicans who have introduced legislation

1345
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 5: Ryan to rename Dallas Airport named for John Foster Dallas

1346
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 5: under to Donald Trump. And as you point out, this

1347
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 5: would be meaning that the two major Washington area airports

1348
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:48,360
Speaker 5: would be Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and then Donald

1349
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 5: Trump Donald J. Trump Donald J. Trump Airport DJT J. Yeah,

1350
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 5: you're going from JFK to DJT. So clearly Ryan's already

1351
01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 5: in favor of this. You ran a Twitter pool.

1352
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 3: Yes, let's see, how are the how are the results looking?

1353
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 6: We can put this up so, uh, you have to

1354
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:06,719
Speaker 6: get rid of that thirty percent.

1355
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 3: So we've got to do a little math here.

1356
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 6: Basically, five to one or six to one. My followers said, uh,

1357
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 6: that Trump that the Dullest Brothers have done more harm

1358
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:22,600
Speaker 6: to the world than Trump. Now, in Trump's defense, the

1359
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 6: Dulls Brothers had a little more time to do to

1360
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 6: do all of this harm. Emily was telling us before

1361
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,360
Speaker 6: the show started. Your mom just read the finished reading

1362
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 6: the Brothers book.

1363
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 3: Everybody read The Brothers.

1364
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 6: If you haven't read, if you haven't read The Brothers

1365
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 6: like great book.

1366
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 3: It's it's it's incredible.

1367
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 6: You can, you know, add on to that Jakarta method,

1368
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,479
Speaker 6: which I think pairs really well with it, which which

1369
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 6: brings in Indonesia. But yeah, I mean, should we do

1370
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 6: some of the should we do some of the Dullest

1371
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 6: Brother's greatest hits?

1372
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 3: I mean it's hard to find don't have time.

1373
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:56,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's hard to find somewhere that they that they

1374
01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,719
Speaker 6: didn't send the world spiraling in a more chaotic direction.

1375
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 6: But everywhere from overthrowing you know, so overthrowing our benz

1376
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 6: in in Guatemala and overthrowing the Shawn in Iran. Uh,

1377
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 6: which in a pretty direct link led.

1378
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 3: To nine to eleven.

1379
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,160
Speaker 6: I've I've got a piece of at the Huffington Post

1380
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 6: that I have read that will explain how you can

1381
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 6: you can draw a really direct line from from that

1382
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 6: to there. Then uh uh, then you've got La Mumba

1383
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 6: in Congo.

1384
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 4: We did a whole long interview on that.

1385
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:38,560
Speaker 3: Carno and uh Indonesia.

1386
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 6: But but then also just setting the stage for this

1387
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 6: interventionist kind of coup regime attempt. Now, one thing I

1388
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 6: would add is that what what Trump doesn't get enough

1389
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 6: credit or discredit for, depending on how you feel, is

1390
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 6: his his interventionist policy in Central and South America during

1391
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,639
Speaker 6: his his tenure. And we should we should, I don't.

1392
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:03,640
Speaker 6: I don't know if anybody's you know, fully put this

1393
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 6: all together. But you know, Trump talks a big game

1394
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 6: of isolationism, but was surrounding himself with kind of the

1395
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:18,599
Speaker 6: most interventionist John Bolton types that that kind of haunted

1396
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 6: the Reagan White you know, Reagan era Republicans and still

1397
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 6: haunted Republican Party today even like the so you know,

1398
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 6: they tried to overthrow uh Medora and Venezuela. They they

1399
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 6: did overthrow Morales for a while in Bolivia before he

1400
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 6: came back into power. Uh they basically overthrew Correa in

1401
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 6: in Ecuador, but all, all of these are much more

1402
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 6: complicated for the most part, uh than the kind of

1403
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 6: military backed coups that the Dulles.

1404
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 3: Brothers would do. What what the US.

1405
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 6: Really learned is that this this kinetic kind of overt

1406
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,040
Speaker 6: you know, killing a prime minister or a president and

1407
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 6: putting in a new one just clashed you know, too

1408
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 6: squarely and fundamentally and hypocritically with American values that they

1409
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 6: had to find a less kinetic way to do it.

1410
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,080
Speaker 6: And so the Bolivia example is a good one, where

1411
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 6: they they basically rigged the election and then put people

1412
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 6: into the streets and then take power by kind of

1413
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:21,600
Speaker 6: kind of streetforce used, you know, using kind of propaganda

1414
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 6: everats in Ecuador, you know, a similar way, they kind

1415
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 6: of flipped the guy that followed Korea and then they

1416
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 6: create this alliance of narco traffickers and right wingers in Brazil,

1417
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 6: similar situation, Well.

1418
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 5: It's basically happening right now in Haiti, I mean, the

1419
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 5: Biden administration.

1420
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 4: Like we've covered this for.

1421
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 5: A couple of years, the way that they manipulated the

1422
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 5: Haitian government while publicly pushing it to be democratic, et cetera,

1423
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 5: et cetera. But basically backed the government on re because

1424
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 5: they wanted them to accept migrant flights.

1425
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 3: And port of Prince Yeah, exactly.

1426
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 6: And then of course Trump and Cuba, which Biden administration

1427
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 6: has completely continued Trump's Trump's Cuba policy. So I think

1428
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 6: it's interesting that the Dulles brothers, if they came back

1429
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 6: to life and were brought to Langley and we're told

1430
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 6: the God to see your briefing, as they would be

1431
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 6: entitled to about you know what the Trump administration did

1432
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 6: to make sure that it's favored governments either got into

1433
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 6: power or remained in power throughout Central and South America.

1434
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 3: I think they would be very impressed and.

1435
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 6: Say, Okay, I'm glad to see that you guys are

1436
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:31,400
Speaker 6: carrying on the tradition and in a more sophisticated way,

1437
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 6: so sophisticated.

1438
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 3: Trump probably doesn't even know about half of it. I

1439
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 3: think that's true and care about it. The point, but

1440
01:15:36,479 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 3: you be fine with it.

1441
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 5: The point that was with me is it's completely bipartisan.

1442
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 5: This is is a tradition that was carried on by

1443
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 5: certainly the Obama administration, the Clinton administration. There's some you

1444
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 5: can have arguments about the Carter administration, but John Foster Dulles.

1445
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 5: The airport is named after the Secretary of State throughout

1446
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:56,200
Speaker 5: the in the Eisenhower administration basically, and he passed away

1447
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 5: in nineteen fifty nine. This dedication was in nineteen sixty two,

1448
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 5: right after I think Alan Dallas had been pushed out

1449
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:06,400
Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty one, after Kennedy was furious with the

1450
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 5: Bay of Pigs, which had been engineered before he took

1451
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 5: office by the Dallas brothers and by that sort of

1452
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:19,560
Speaker 5: early CIA establishment that continues to the mentality, the ideology

1453
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 5: continues to have major influence over our foreign policy today.

1454
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 5: Tucker Carlson made such an interesting point recently that he's

1455
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 5: basically the more he's learned about recent decades and Cold

1456
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:34,360
Speaker 5: War history, and to be fair to Cold warriors, not

1457
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,599
Speaker 5: ones that were in the government, but you know, Cold

1458
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,679
Speaker 5: War activists and voters. Over the last half a century,

1459
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 5: we are learning a lot of new reporting about what

1460
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 5: was happening just in the last ten twenty years. I

1461
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 5: mean Devil's Chess Board by David Talbot. A lot of

1462
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 5: that is like new reporting. That book came out what

1463
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 5: in twenty nineteen, A Marria a couple.

1464
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 3: Of years ago. Yeah, there's a couple of years more

1465
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 3: than that.

1466
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, I mean, obviously people knew what was happening

1467
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 5: with the Contrast because Congress ban funding of it at

1468
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 5: the time. But still some of this information about different coups,

1469
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 5: we're just getting it now, like we're only now getting

1470
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 5: declassified stuff. We're only now getting people to admit, you know,

1471
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 5: basically what happened. So as more new information comes up,

1472
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:17,480
Speaker 5: perhaps these remarks from John F. Kennedy at the dedication

1473
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 5: where he even mentions Alan Dalles I think he was there,

1474
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,040
Speaker 5: He says, I want to say how appropriate it is

1475
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:25,040
Speaker 5: that this should be named after Secretary Dallas. He was

1476
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 5: a member of an extraordinary family's brother Alan Dallas, who

1477
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:29,880
Speaker 5: served in a great many administrations, stretching back, I believe

1478
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 5: to President Hoover all the way to this one. Kennedy

1479
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:34,599
Speaker 5: had basically just pushed Alan Dallas out of office. John

1480
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 5: Foster Dallas, who had the age of nineteen, was rather

1481
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:40,440
Speaker 5: strangely the secretary to the Chinese delegation to the Hague,

1482
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 5: and who served nearly every presidential administration from that time

1483
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 5: forward to his death in nineteen fifty nine. Also served,

1484
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 5: of course, the clients of Sullivan and Cromwell where he

1485
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:53,080
Speaker 5: was in and out of So it's just your point

1486
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:54,800
Speaker 5: is a really apt one that a lot of this

1487
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 5: is still continuing today, the ideology, the mentality is still

1488
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 5: continuing to this day, and I think hearteningly a lot

1489
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 5: of people on the right who used to dismiss this

1490
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,679
Speaker 5: as a hippie nonsense have come around to it actually

1491
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:10,839
Speaker 5: really being the excesses of our shadow government.

1492
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 3: Maybe the Eric Trump compromised Eric Trump Airport.

1493
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 5: The Eric Trump Airport. Well, so some of the chief

1494
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 5: Deputy Whip, he's a Republican from Pennsylvania, sort of the

1495
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:24,080
Speaker 5: southwestern corner of Pennsylvania's one who introduced this. Co sponsors

1496
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:27,640
Speaker 5: are Michael Wallas, Andy Ogos guy I don't know how

1497
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 5: to say his last name Russian Thalar okay, but so

1498
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 5: also Paul Goser, Troy nell Is, Chuck Fleischmann, red state

1499
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 5: Republicans for the most part. So I don't well, I

1500
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 5: don't think the Trump name is going to catch on

1501
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 5: at Dallas.

1502
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 4: May pick another one.

1503
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:43,640
Speaker 5: Everyone's ready to get rid of it.

1504
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 6: I would hope that Democrats would be ready to get

1505
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 6: rid of the Dallas name. So they just need to

1506
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 6: find somebody other than Trump and Democrats probably go for.

1507
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,600
Speaker 5: It, are they though, because literally Biden is doing like

1508
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:54,799
Speaker 5: Dallas type conduct in Haiti.

1509
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 3: That's true, but yeah, but it would it would.

1510
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 6: It goes to kind of show how sophisticated the new

1511
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,720
Speaker 6: conduct is if we can kind of publicly claim that

1512
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:10,440
Speaker 6: it's different, like we denounce our past crimes against humanity

1513
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 6: as a way of signaling that we don't we don't

1514
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:16,560
Speaker 6: commit those crimes anymore.

1515
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 3: But we do.

1516
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, so at least publicly, right exactly, All right, Ryan,

1517
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 5: you have some interesting reporting on the race in it's

1518
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,360
Speaker 5: from a Maryland seat involving Harry Dunn, a prominent figure

1519
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 5: Capitol Police officer who's now running.

1520
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, indeed so apax super pac has launched a

1521
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 6: major air campaign to block a congressional candidate, Harry Dunn,

1522
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:43,200
Speaker 6: from winning a Democratic primary in Maryland. And you've probably

1523
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 6: heard of Harry Dunn. He's known for his work as

1524
01:19:45,320 --> 01:19:48,760
Speaker 6: a Capitol Police officer. On January sixth, two thousand and one,

1525
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 6: and he's become a hero within Democratic Party circles for

1526
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 6: his testimony before Congress and his regular media appearances slamming

1527
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 6: Donald Trump and warning of the threat to democracy. He

1528
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:02,599
Speaker 6: won a Congressional gold medal, and even published a book

1529
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 6: called Standing My Ground, A Capitol Police Officer's Fight for

1530
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 6: Accountability and Good Trouble. After January sixth, Here he is

1531
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 6: on Jake Tapper's program announcing his run for office.

1532
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 10: At this moment, right now, I don't think any of

1533
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 10: us have the luxury of sitting back and waiting for

1534
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 10: somebody else to do something else. You do until there's

1535
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 10: nothing that can be done. There's always something that can

1536
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 10: be done. And I feel like my role as a

1537
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 10: Capitol Police officer, I did all I could do to

1538
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 10: meet this moment that we're in now, to fight, to

1539
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 10: try to seek justice, accountability, defend democracy. But now I'm

1540
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 10: stepping into a new role, and I think that I'm

1541
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 10: up for the challenge to represent the people of the

1542
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:45,599
Speaker 10: third District of Maryland in.

1543
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:46,679
Speaker 3: A deep blue district.

1544
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 6: For your typical Democratic voter, he's an absolute dream of

1545
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 6: a candidate for APAK. Apparently he's a nightmare because they're

1546
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 6: on track to drop three to four million dollars backing

1547
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 6: his opponent, a standard issue Democratic state senator named Sarah Elfreth.

1548
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 6: She's one of more than a dozen local candidates running

1549
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 6: for the seat vacated by Paul Sarbanes and done until

1550
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 6: the past few days, was considered the clear front runner.

1551
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 6: Dunn has raised three point seven million dollars so far,

1552
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 6: according to a campaign source. Of that, two point seven

1553
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,559
Speaker 6: million dollars has been reported. Elfreth, meanwhile, had raised roughly

1554
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 6: four hundred thousand dollars, largely from high dollar donors, including

1555
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,840
Speaker 6: corporate packs. How much he raised in the first quarter

1556
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 6: of twenty twenty four, though, has yet to be announced.

1557
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 6: The irony for anybody who knows Paul Sarbine's career is

1558
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 6: that he dedicated his life to getting.

1559
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:38,400
Speaker 3: Big money out of politics.

1560
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:42,040
Speaker 6: Now, as he leaves Congress, a Democrat hopes to take

1561
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,680
Speaker 6: his seat with super pac money largely coming from Republican

1562
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 6: supporters of Israel. Elfreth appears to have known, or at

1563
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:53,919
Speaker 6: least hoped, the super Pac support was coming. Her campaign

1564
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 6: put on its website what's known as a red box

1565
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:00,200
Speaker 6: on March twenty first. Now, redbox is a method of

1566
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:04,679
Speaker 6: coordinating without legally coordinating with a superpack. Campaigns are barred

1567
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 6: from directly coordinating with super packs, but they get around

1568
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 6: the prohibition by posting information publicly on a campaign website.

1569
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 6: Typically inside a red box that a super pack can

1570
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 6: then use. If you need a primer on that, go

1571
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 6: back and check out my twenty twenty one story on

1572
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 6: the red box put out by Nina Turner's opponent Chantel Brown,

1573
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:25,160
Speaker 6: aimed at attracting pro Israel money.

1574
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 3: Hers worked too.

1575
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 6: Eightpa's new ad on behalf of Elfred does indeed rely

1576
01:22:31,200 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 6: heavily on information and footage posted in her red box.

1577
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 6: It focuses on her record supporting abortion rights, quote the environment,

1578
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:43,240
Speaker 6: and quote our democracy, not once mentioning Israel or any

1579
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 6: policy related to the Middle East.

1580
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:47,160
Speaker 3: Here's their first ad surat.

1581
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 5: Alfred gets things done.

1582
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 18: In just five years, She's passed eighty four bills like

1583
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 18: affordable childcare, expanding prenatal care, and enshrining abortion rights in

1584
01:22:57,479 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 18: the Maryland Constitution.

1585
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 3: Now Elpha is running to bring.

1586
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 18: That same get things done approach to Congress. With so

1587
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:08,599
Speaker 18: much at stake, abortion rights, the environment, our democracy, we

1588
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:12,679
Speaker 18: need a congresswoman who will deliver. That's Democrats. Sarah alfrith

1589
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 18: UDP is responsible for the content of this ad.

1590
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 6: So Apax superpack is called United Democracy Project, which refers

1591
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,719
Speaker 6: to an alliance between Israel which its backers routinely refer

1592
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 6: to inaccurately as the only democracy in the Middle East

1593
01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:29,759
Speaker 6: and the United States. Harry Dunn, of course, has organized

1594
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 6: his campaign to attract support from Democrats nervous that former

1595
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:35,920
Speaker 6: President Donald Trump is a threat to democracy.

1596
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:39,120
Speaker 3: Democrats have heavily criticized Apak.

1597
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:42,440
Speaker 6: For endorsing more than one hundred Republicans who opposed certification

1598
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 6: of the twenty twenty election, taking on a high profile

1599
01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 6: January sixth officer suggests Apak has not been bothered by

1600
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 6: that criticism. UDP's ad campaign costs nearly six hundred thousand

1601
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 6: dollars last week. The primary is scheduled for May fourteenth,

1602
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:59,879
Speaker 6: with six weeks until the election. The pace of spending

1603
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 6: suggests Apak is willing to drop some four million dollars

1604
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:06,360
Speaker 6: to lift Elfreth and block Done from getting to Congress.

1605
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 3: But why, Here's the crazy thing nobody knows.

1606
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:15,000
Speaker 6: In mid February, the news outlet Jewish Insider, which covers

1607
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 6: congressional primaries closely with an eye toward policy toward Israel,

1608
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 6: flagg Done as a quote wild card in the race.

1609
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:24,719
Speaker 6: Dunn provided a comment to Jewish Insider, saying he supports

1610
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,680
Speaker 6: the legislation to fund Israel's war effort. Quote, Israel has

1611
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 6: a right to defend itself, and I support the goals

1612
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 6: of returning all the hostages home and eliminating Hamas. I

1613
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:37,240
Speaker 6: am glad President Biden has advocated for an approach that

1614
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 6: reduces unnecessary civilian casualties, and I support that approach. Dunn said,

1615
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:48,520
Speaker 6: the crowded congressional primary will decide who replaces outgoing representative Sarbines,

1616
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:52,879
Speaker 6: and the district is solidly democratic. There is no serious

1617
01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:57,559
Speaker 6: Republican challenger, so, Emily, if you ask people in this race,

1618
01:24:58,160 --> 01:24:58,559
Speaker 6: like what.

1619
01:24:58,720 --> 01:24:59,760
Speaker 3: Did Harry Dunn do?

1620
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 6: Joining us now to discuss the fallout of the World

1621
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:11,679
Speaker 6: Central Kitchen massacre is international humanitarian relief Organizermed Khan Ahmed,

1622
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 6: thanks so much for joining us.

1623
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 9: Hi Ryan, Hi Emily. Nice to be with you, Unfortunately

1624
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 9: under these circumstances.

1625
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 6: And I just wanted to set it up by reading

1626
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 6: a piece that you published March twenty third. In the

1627
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 6: intercept to give people context for the work you've done.

1628
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:32,120
Speaker 6: You wrote, I have organized airlifts of women, legislators, judges

1629
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:35,799
Speaker 6: and journalists out of Afghanistan. As kabl Fell delivered ongoing

1630
01:25:35,800 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 6: aid to Ukrainian frontline villages during Russia's invasion, worked on

1631
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:42,559
Speaker 6: efforts to build runways, roads and highways to deliver aid

1632
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:46,160
Speaker 6: to Rwanda refugees after the genocide, and delivered aid shipments

1633
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:49,679
Speaker 6: to enclaves besieged and under attack by the Syrian army.

1634
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 6: None of it prepared me for the challenges of trying

1635
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 6: to bring a few trucks of food and medicine per

1636
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:59,719
Speaker 6: week into the Gaza strip. But this was late March

1637
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 6: before for this massacre. Can you talk about you know,

1638
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 6: what has happened to these relief efforts in the wake

1639
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 6: of it.

1640
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 9: Well, it's immediately after, of course, so we'll have to

1641
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:18,000
Speaker 9: wait and see what happens. But at the moment, many

1642
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 9: international organizations have paused their activities, mainly because of the

1643
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 9: local staff does not feel safe. I mean they haven't

1644
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 9: been safe for any moment, as we've discussed before, for

1645
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 9: the last six months, but now they're being killed in

1646
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:39,800
Speaker 9: such numbers that they do not feel comfortable doing distributions

1647
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 9: and going to meet the people where they are to

1648
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 9: distribute them. So we're in a bit of a stand still.

1649
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:51,040
Speaker 9: I'm actually in Greece and I have a plane full

1650
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:57,679
Speaker 9: of virgent medicines that are sort of urgently required in Gaza,

1651
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 9: and I'm waiting for clearance to bring them there. And

1652
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 9: it's a very slow process. It was a slow process

1653
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:09,160
Speaker 9: before and now it's basically grind to a standstill. And

1654
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 9: essentially it's indicative of a situation where no one in power,

1655
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 9: none of the decision makers really actually care about the

1656
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 9: humanitarian situation. There's been plenty of lip service, but the

1657
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 9: reality on the ground is it is very slow, and

1658
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:29,600
Speaker 9: there are a number of factors, but it's slow, but

1659
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:34,960
Speaker 9: essentially nobody in power actually cares at about the issue.

1660
01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:38,840
Speaker 5: Can you you mentioned it's like still the immediate aftermath

1661
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:41,600
Speaker 5: of what happened with the World Central Kitchen workers. But

1662
01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:43,439
Speaker 5: can you walk us through a little bit of what

1663
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:46,920
Speaker 5: so far additional layers of red tape look like to

1664
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 5: get aid into Gaza. What are some of the big

1665
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 5: barriers that you're encountering already or that you expect to

1666
01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:58,439
Speaker 5: encounter just to again get aid medicine into Gaza to

1667
01:27:58,479 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 5: the people of Gaza.

1668
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 9: Well, essentially, the major blocking point is the checkpoint system

1669
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:09,240
Speaker 9: and the checking of actual physical trucks that come in

1670
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 9: to Gaza through Egypt, and that's been since day one,

1671
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 9: since I was first in Rafa on October ninth, and

1672
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 9: trucks were already backed up then, and it's gotten worse

1673
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:25,839
Speaker 9: and worse. They're miles and miles and miles of trucks

1674
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:28,160
Speaker 9: backed up at every checkpoint. So whether it's Rafa on

1675
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:32,439
Speaker 9: the border or a Larish about forty five minutes from Rafa,

1676
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 9: or Ismayula another couple hours away, and the trucks are

1677
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 9: backed up essentially because they don't go through in the

1678
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:44,160
Speaker 9: numbers they need to go through. And that is I mean,

1679
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 9: I've had any number of things happen. I've had incubators

1680
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 9: taken off trucks because I was told they needed to

1681
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 9: be on ambulances. I've had blood pressure monitors taken off

1682
01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 9: trucks because they needed to come in ambulances. I've been

1683
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 9: told that the crates were in pact correct, there were

1684
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 9: too many creates in the truck, so any number of

1685
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:05,800
Speaker 9: excuses to not getting stuff in. And essentially, you know,

1686
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 9: the United States government is fully aware of this. They've

1687
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 9: been fully aware of this since day one. Senators Merkley

1688
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:15,080
Speaker 9: and von Holland came to Rafa. They saw exactly, they

1689
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:18,639
Speaker 9: spoke to truck drivers. They've been very vocal since about

1690
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 9: the situation. So it's a there's no there's nothing new here.

1691
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:27,680
Speaker 9: It's it's been like this since the beginning. Essentially, the

1692
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:32,639
Speaker 9: powers that be don't want to aid and significant numbers

1693
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 9: or the numbers needed to enter.

1694
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 6: And let's say that they find something on the truck

1695
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:40,840
Speaker 6: like the blood pressure medicine or too many crates or

1696
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:43,599
Speaker 6: you know whatever else and they say, oh, this is

1697
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:45,960
Speaker 6: this is flagged. Do they let the rest of the

1698
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 6: truck through or do they send what happens to that entire.

1699
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,680
Speaker 9: Shipment, depending on where you are. If you were at

1700
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:54,679
Speaker 9: one of the Israeli chick points, they'll send the truck back.

1701
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:58,479
Speaker 9: The whole truck comes back, and it couldn't come back

1702
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:00,599
Speaker 9: to a certain check point where if you have another

1703
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:03,600
Speaker 9: truck available, you can take some of it off, replacement

1704
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 9: with this with the stuff that they'll allow in, and

1705
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 9: then send it back. But essentially you get back in

1706
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:11,599
Speaker 9: the back of the line. So there's no telling how

1707
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 9: long it would they take. You know, for example, there

1708
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 9: are trucks that have been sitting in Rocker for three months,

1709
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:20,000
Speaker 9: literally three months, and and you can go through the

1710
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 9: list and this is you know, stuff that I wish,

1711
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 9: you know, I could make public more widely. I mean,

1712
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:28,639
Speaker 9: the you go through everything is literally before it enters,

1713
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,200
Speaker 9: everything is you know, you send, you submit invoices, you

1714
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 9: submit the packing list, you submit the weight, the quantity,

1715
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 9: the origin of where it came from, and you just

1716
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:41,840
Speaker 9: wait and you wait and you wait and you wait,

1717
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 9: and so it's, uh, it's truly soul shattering what you

1718
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:49,720
Speaker 9: have to go through to get to get stuff in

1719
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 9: that you know is desperately needed and literally is helping

1720
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 9: keep you people alive, and you know it's it's it's

1721
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 9: part of this strategy that I think, you know, the

1722
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 9: Israeli strategy since October seventh or October eighth has been

1723
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:10,000
Speaker 9: very clear that their goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

1724
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:11,800
Speaker 9: And that doesn't mean they want to kill everybody. It

1725
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:14,600
Speaker 9: means they want to get everybody out. I think internally

1726
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 9: probably there's discussion on whether that means they want to

1727
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 9: clear out the north part of Gaza or all of Gaza.

1728
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:23,400
Speaker 9: And that means they want you know, people out, and

1729
01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:26,920
Speaker 9: there we have hundreds of data points that prove that

1730
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 9: and to make that a reasonable deduction. So I don't

1731
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 9: think that's kind of and they've been open and honest

1732
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:33,439
Speaker 9: about it. I mean, many members of the Prime Minister's

1733
01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:38,080
Speaker 9: Cabinet and Kinnescant members have said the same. And so

1734
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:40,040
Speaker 9: if you look at any of the things that have happened,

1735
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 9: it looks like a pretty you know, sort of strategy,

1736
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 9: a pretty obvious strategy of meeting the end goal of

1737
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 9: ethnically pleansing Gaza, including the attack on the World Central

1738
01:31:56,080 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 9: Kitchen staff.

1739
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:00,439
Speaker 5: So this is exactly what I was to ask you

1740
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,840
Speaker 5: about next. Basically, having gone through all of these protocols,

1741
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:07,520
Speaker 5: which as you just described, I mean, are incredibly detailed.

1742
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:13,480
Speaker 5: From the perspective of Israel, the IDF, and from your perspective,

1743
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,479
Speaker 5: having been involved so closely in all of this, it

1744
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:20,920
Speaker 5: seems pretty clear that they should have confidence in their

1745
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:24,680
Speaker 5: own processes to clear all of the aid that's attempting

1746
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:28,439
Speaker 5: to come in that basically they're doing everything possible, if

1747
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:33,840
Speaker 5: not more than necessary, to ensure there's nothing involved in

1748
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:37,160
Speaker 5: the aid deliveries that's going to be used against them

1749
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 5: or that's going to you know, have any sort of

1750
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 5: capabilities capacity for Hamas to kill IDF soldiers or Israelis.

1751
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:49,360
Speaker 5: And it seems like you've seen that up close that

1752
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:52,639
Speaker 5: their own processes are very sound. They should have all

1753
01:32:52,680 --> 01:32:55,120
Speaker 5: confidence that what's coming into the country or attempting to

1754
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:59,160
Speaker 5: come into the country, for the most part, is safe.

1755
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:01,720
Speaker 9: Yeah. They they have a very good system. They've had

1756
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 9: a system for years and years of clearing stuff, and

1757
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 9: they know what they're doing, and they could clear many,

1758
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 9: many more times tons of food and medicine a day

1759
01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 9: than they're doing. They have the capacity to do it,

1760
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:16,880
Speaker 9: and certainly the United States government has the expertise and

1761
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:18,920
Speaker 9: capacity to do it, and certainly the UN agencies do

1762
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 9: as well. They could assist, but it's just not happening

1763
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:26,280
Speaker 9: because it's never been made a priority. They talk about it,

1764
01:33:26,280 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 9: They talked about it over and over and over again,

1765
01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:31,719
Speaker 9: about caring about civilians and humanitarian assistance. But they don't.

1766
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 9: They literally, they just don't.

1767
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:36,719
Speaker 6: I want to read one more passage from your recent

1768
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 6: piece in the intercept. Write it's easy to point the

1769
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,599
Speaker 6: finger at Israel, the country that is implementing the blockade

1770
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:45,519
Speaker 6: of God's two point three million residents, half of whom

1771
01:33:45,520 --> 01:33:48,000
Speaker 6: are children, yet trying to work the issue from every

1772
01:33:48,040 --> 01:33:50,719
Speaker 6: angle on a daily base to get urgent medical and food.

1773
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,320
Speaker 6: Eight in I've come to the conclusion that President Joe Biden,

1774
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 6: for whom I hosted fundraisers and worked to elect in

1775
01:33:56,320 --> 01:34:00,240
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, has signed on to Israel's end goal of

1776
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:03,880
Speaker 6: the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza. So what I'm

1777
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 6: curious about is when you came to that conclusion. You

1778
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 6: and I have been in conversation since since the beginning

1779
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:14,400
Speaker 6: of this war, and I'm curious when you moved from

1780
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:21,720
Speaker 6: this is heartless incompetence to this is an actively malicious

1781
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,640
Speaker 6: effort on the part of both the Biden administration and

1782
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 6: the Israeli government to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Was it accumulation

1783
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:32,839
Speaker 6: of the days of it, or was there a specific

1784
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,800
Speaker 6: moment where you were like, no, this is this is deliberate.

1785
01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 9: I don't know that I had an aha moment. It

1786
01:34:39,280 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 9: was some time in October. I was in and out

1787
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:46,880
Speaker 9: of Sinai two or three times in October at the border,

1788
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 9: and it was very clear that AID was being slow rolled.

1789
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:58,720
Speaker 9: It was very clear that they were targeting certain sectors,

1790
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:00,840
Speaker 9: and you know, sort of some time in October I

1791
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:04,280
Speaker 9: came to the conclusion, which I think is a reasonable deduction,

1792
01:35:04,360 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 9: that there were no mistakes and there are no mistakes.

1793
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:10,200
Speaker 9: And you know these really, the IDEF tells us all

1794
01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:13,800
Speaker 9: the time. You know how precise they are. So the

1795
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:17,600
Speaker 9: hundreds of doctors that have been murdered, the hundreds of

1796
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:21,439
Speaker 9: teachers that have been murdered, the hundreds of AID workers

1797
01:35:22,040 --> 01:35:25,040
Speaker 9: that have been murdered, I don't think their mistakes. The

1798
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 9: hundreds of children, the thousands of children, but actually I

1799
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:33,160
Speaker 9: know of literally tens of babies that were simply guilty

1800
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 9: of being in their grips. And so these are things

1801
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 9: that are well known to the US government for many,

1802
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:40,839
Speaker 9: many years as a military term called command and control

1803
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 9: sort of any US government official that's been stationed in

1804
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 9: the region know the IDF has a problem with command

1805
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:50,559
Speaker 9: and control. If you wanted to, you could go out

1806
01:35:50,600 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 9: and dig up any number of US government officials who've

1807
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:55,559
Speaker 9: been fired on by the IDF over the last you know,

1808
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:59,879
Speaker 9: thirty years or so. So what happened yesterday, for example,

1809
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:03,720
Speaker 9: it will come out at some point that it was

1810
01:36:03,760 --> 01:36:07,759
Speaker 9: an issue of command and control and local commanders decided

1811
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 9: to pull the trigger once twice and a third time

1812
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:15,679
Speaker 9: on three different vehicles. But this is not anything new.

1813
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:18,559
Speaker 9: And again, when to come back to your point about

1814
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 9: the White House, this is nothing that the United States

1815
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 9: government doesn't know about IDF activities over the course of

1816
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 9: thirty years literally and probably more than that. The thirty

1817
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 9: years I referred to as those are the years that

1818
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:33,800
Speaker 9: I've been, you know, sort of affiliated with the US

1819
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:36,200
Speaker 9: government or working alongside these issues.

1820
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:39,080
Speaker 5: So my last question is just going to be something

1821
01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:43,240
Speaker 5: you told Politico back in December. You were basically dropping

1822
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,760
Speaker 5: out of the Biden twenty twenty National Finance Committee, like

1823
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:49,640
Speaker 5: the Biden Victory Funds or twenty twenty four. Yeah, I

1824
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:53,080
Speaker 5: think is what's Oh actually, yes, but you said this

1825
01:36:53,120 --> 01:36:55,879
Speaker 5: is bullshit. You make moral compromises being involved in politics

1826
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 5: and ethical shortcuts, but this is a bridge too far,

1827
01:36:58,280 --> 01:37:00,759
Speaker 5: and Politico wrote, Although Kan has raised hundreds of thousands

1828
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:03,519
Speaker 5: of dollars for Democrats and previous election cycles, he admits

1829
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,720
Speaker 5: that he doesn't have a limitless wealth as top to

1830
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:07,639
Speaker 5: Biden donors, but he hopes it serves as a wake

1831
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:10,519
Speaker 5: up call to the White White House. Since December, do

1832
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 5: you think your decision there has served as a wake

1833
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:16,479
Speaker 5: up call? Do you think that maybe now after the

1834
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:19,680
Speaker 5: World Central kitchen situation, that will be a wake up

1835
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 5: call are you hearing from other donors, people involved in

1836
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:26,240
Speaker 5: democratic circles that they're also fed up with us? It's

1837
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:28,600
Speaker 5: a red line for them with Biden. Basically, what have

1838
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:29,720
Speaker 5: you you heard since then?

1839
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 9: Actually, I'm so far disconnected from the you know, sort

1840
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 9: of Washington political scene that I have no idea because

1841
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 9: I'm literally twenty four hours a day just trying to

1842
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:43,759
Speaker 9: get humanitarian aid into Gaza and help get injured citizens

1843
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:45,960
Speaker 9: in Gaza out to get medical aid where they can.

1844
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 9: So I really don't know. I don't know if anyone

1845
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 9: cares that, you know, I dropped out. I doubt it.

1846
01:37:51,920 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 9: You know, it's it's just a matter of literally doing

1847
01:37:56,080 --> 01:38:00,519
Speaker 9: what you think is right and hoping other people will

1848
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:04,240
Speaker 9: come to similar conclusions when when faced with the facts.

1849
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 9: You know, it's the reality of the world we live

1850
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 9: in is and and it's very very sad. And I

1851
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:16,919
Speaker 9: worked alongside many colleagues of the seven who were murdered.

1852
01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:22,960
Speaker 9: Zoby Frankom, you know, a tremendous person, Damian Sobil, an

1853
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 9: incredible person with years of experience. But the reality is

1854
01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 9: Palestinians have being murdered in the same way for six months.

1855
01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:38,479
Speaker 9: They've been targeted, they've been identified, and they've been murdered.

1856
01:38:38,479 --> 01:38:43,320
Speaker 9: They've been hit by snipers, they've been hit by fifteen's,

1857
01:38:43,320 --> 01:38:46,400
Speaker 9: they've hit by Apache helicopters, and they've been hit by drones.

1858
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:49,560
Speaker 9: As it wasn't the case the tragic case of the

1859
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:53,479
Speaker 9: w c K staff. So I don't know, you know,

1860
01:38:53,560 --> 01:38:55,559
Speaker 9: I don't know what it is. What what will wake

1861
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:58,240
Speaker 9: people up to the reality of what's happening and what's

1862
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:00,680
Speaker 9: been happening in Gaza. But you know, you you hear

1863
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 9: what I hear our excuses sometimes, uh, you know, this

1864
01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 9: is war and the fog of war, you know, Ryan,

1865
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 9: like you said, I've been to I've delivered humanitarian aid

1866
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 9: and every single war zone the last twenty five years.

1867
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:15,360
Speaker 9: And this has nothing to do with war. This is

1868
01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:21,360
Speaker 9: the targeting and the murder of innocent civilians. And those

1869
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:24,440
Speaker 9: aid workers are innocent civilians. They happened to be expats.

1870
01:39:24,439 --> 01:39:30,080
Speaker 9: But essentially the Palestinians, the Palestinians, as I said, the doctors,

1871
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:34,080
Speaker 9: the teachers, the midwives, they've all been they've been all

1872
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,400
Speaker 9: executed in the same way and targeted.

1873
01:39:37,760 --> 01:39:41,519
Speaker 6: The Guardian published an investigation yesterday, uh speaking of Palestinian

1874
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,760
Speaker 6: civilians that uh, that concluded that it appeared that Palestinian

1875
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:49,320
Speaker 6: children were being targeted by Israeli snipers and that for that,

1876
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:52,599
Speaker 6: for that type of investigation to get into the into

1877
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:56,000
Speaker 6: the Guardian, you know, shows the level of the evidentiary

1878
01:39:56,040 --> 01:39:57,680
Speaker 6: standard that had to be meet to get get it

1879
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 6: past those editors there. Yet here in Washington wanted read

1880
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:04,160
Speaker 6: you one last thing. There's still this this belief that

1881
01:40:04,439 --> 01:40:07,760
Speaker 6: this is these are just unfortunate moments. Here's David Ignatius

1882
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:10,840
Speaker 6: writing in the Washington Post. He writes, Monday illustrated the

1883
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:13,479
Speaker 6: spectrum of outcomes we have seen from the i DF

1884
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:18,240
Speaker 6: astonishing precision in targeting some of Iran's most toxic commanders

1885
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 6: at a secret meeting in Damascus in a consulate by

1886
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:24,840
Speaker 6: the way, and then he says an appalling sloppiness in

1887
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:30,240
Speaker 6: an apparently accidental strike on a humanitarian team in Gaza.

1888
01:40:30,360 --> 01:40:32,640
Speaker 6: When you when you see something like that in the

1889
01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:36,719
Speaker 6: Washington Post, what what what do you think?

1890
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:40,200
Speaker 9: Well, I mean, you know it's David Ignatius, So he's

1891
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 9: a member of the establishment. To longtime member of the establishment.

1892
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:46,200
Speaker 9: Probably spend too many, too much time and you know,

1893
01:40:46,360 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 9: dreadful Washington d C Hotel bars At this point, so

1894
01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 9: you know, you sort of roll your eyes. You know,

1895
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:56,640
Speaker 9: if you're looking at the situation through a prism of

1896
01:40:56,680 --> 01:40:59,920
Speaker 9: the Hamptons, it's different than if you're looking at it

1897
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 9: from out here in the world. And you know, to

1898
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:08,560
Speaker 9: call it an accident is you know, it's just embarrassing.

1899
01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:09,320
Speaker 16: You know.

1900
01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:11,719
Speaker 9: An accident is when you sort of trip over a cable.

1901
01:41:12,360 --> 01:41:16,720
Speaker 9: An accident is not when local commanders give authorization to

1902
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:21,680
Speaker 9: fire three separate times over a geographical distance over a

1903
01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 9: series of minutes. That's not an accident. And uh, you know,

1904
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:30,680
Speaker 9: with regard to the Guardian story, yeah, that's I'm unfortunately

1905
01:41:30,760 --> 01:41:33,600
Speaker 9: very aware of this reality. I've been in touch with

1906
01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:38,960
Speaker 9: many families live trying to get them out, and they've

1907
01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:43,520
Speaker 9: been killed in that process, and it's hard to imagine

1908
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,920
Speaker 9: that they weren't targeted. And children as well. There was

1909
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:49,880
Speaker 9: a three month old baby I was trying to get

1910
01:41:49,920 --> 01:41:51,559
Speaker 9: out of Her parents had already been killed, and we

1911
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 9: had managed to get the birth certificate and then she

1912
01:41:54,439 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 9: was killed, you know, so in her just sleeping in

1913
01:41:57,040 --> 01:41:59,439
Speaker 9: her in her in her crib, in her in her

1914
01:41:59,479 --> 01:42:03,880
Speaker 9: in HER's apartment, you know, and it's it's just very

1915
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 9: there's no there's nothing imprecise about it. I've said it

1916
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:13,720
Speaker 9: and I believe it, that every one of these murders

1917
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:19,720
Speaker 9: has been targeted. And you know the answer would be, oh,

1918
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:21,680
Speaker 9: if we wanted to kill everyone, we could kill, you know,

1919
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 9: five hundred thousand, and I just think they they've killed

1920
01:42:25,360 --> 01:42:29,280
Speaker 9: the number they think they can get away with, you know.

1921
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:31,920
Speaker 9: So whatever that number is, whether it's thirty five thousand

1922
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 9: or forty thousand, or fifty thousand and seventy five thousand

1923
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:38,600
Speaker 9: who are severely injured, it's the number they want it

1924
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:41,400
Speaker 9: to be. And that number is significant. That means that

1925
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:46,639
Speaker 9: literally every single Palestinian, every single Palestinian in Gaza, as

1926
01:42:46,680 --> 01:42:49,559
Speaker 9: a member of their immediate circle, whether it's friends or family,

1927
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:54,120
Speaker 9: who have either been killed or severely injured or injured,

1928
01:42:54,200 --> 01:42:57,479
Speaker 9: will never recover from And this is aside from the

1929
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,839
Speaker 9: two point two million people who have gone through trauma.

1930
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:02,960
Speaker 9: No one else in the world has experienced them. And

1931
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:08,120
Speaker 9: again I've been to every one of these situations now, Sudan, Congo,

1932
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:12,600
Speaker 9: nobody on earth can even comprehend of what's going on

1933
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 9: side of Gaza. Relentless bombardment from land, sea and air.

1934
01:43:16,360 --> 01:43:18,280
Speaker 9: So literally it's two point two million people and the

1935
01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 9: few of us who actually been inside of Gaza since

1936
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:24,479
Speaker 9: October seventh, And that's that's about it. Because it's actually

1937
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:29,320
Speaker 9: beyond the scope of human comprehension to be under constant bombardment,

1938
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:32,120
Speaker 9: to have to move your family four or five, six times,

1939
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:36,559
Speaker 9: to lose members of your family in that process, you know.

1940
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:38,640
Speaker 9: So I think you're like the people in DC are

1941
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 9: obviously just you know, they're so disconnected from reality, so

1942
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:44,400
Speaker 9: out of touch that you know, that's that's probably what

1943
01:43:44,400 --> 01:43:45,120
Speaker 9: you would expect.

1944
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right.

1945
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 6: So last night there was an earthquake in Taiwan, which

1946
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:56,160
Speaker 6: which produced tsunami warnings in Okinawa, where my mother in

1947
01:43:56,240 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 6: law happens to be on in like an old old

1948
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:01,439
Speaker 6: person's like bus trip, and so I was texting her

1949
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:04,479
Speaker 6: and she was sending me video of her right next

1950
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:09,400
Speaker 6: to the ocean as the tsunami is is predicted to

1951
01:44:09,439 --> 01:44:13,479
Speaker 6: be coming, and like there there was this moment of

1952
01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:17,200
Speaker 6: a half an hour to an hour where it was

1953
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:18,920
Speaker 6: unclear if she was going to be able to get

1954
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:22,160
Speaker 6: to high enough ground in time. And it was a

1955
01:44:22,280 --> 01:44:26,760
Speaker 6: terrifying moment, and it made me think that everyone in

1956
01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:29,880
Speaker 6: Gaza has been living through that moment, you know, every

1957
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:33,719
Speaker 6: minute of the day, you know, for the last five months,

1958
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 6: without any hope that the tsunami wave is going to

1959
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:42,040
Speaker 6: creston and foll Because now the wave has passed Okinawa

1960
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:46,120
Speaker 6: and my mother in law is safe. The wave has

1961
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:49,680
Speaker 6: not crested through gaz In fact, it seems like it's

1962
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 6: only crashing harder as a result of this World Central

1963
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 6: Kitchen masacre, which, as you said, has to be the

1964
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,160
Speaker 6: intended result. We started the show with John Kirby claiming

1965
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:02,000
Speaker 6: there's absolutely no evidence that any of this was deliberate,

1966
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:07,639
Speaker 6: so we'll leave it to viewers to decide. Ahmed, thank

1967
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 6: you so much as always for the work that you

1968
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:13,080
Speaker 6: do and also for joining us on this program.

1969
01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:16,519
Speaker 9: Thanks very much, Brian, Thanks Emily, I appreciate it. Thank you.

1970
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:20,439
Speaker 9: You're very right that that moment that you went through

1971
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:23,880
Speaker 9: is exactly what they have gone through every minute of

1972
01:45:24,000 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 9: every day and every night for the last six months.

1973
01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:31,639
Speaker 6: You can't imagine what that leaves your psyche like after that,

1974
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:33,160
Speaker 6: if there ever isn't after it.

1975
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:36,800
Speaker 5: And your mother in law is now safe, right, So I.

1976
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 3: Don't know about the boat. We'll find out about that,

1977
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:38,840
Speaker 3: that's right.

1978
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:41,120
Speaker 6: The boat was Yeah, because she was a boat trip

1979
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,479
Speaker 6: that goes around Japan, bunch of Miami seventy somethings. Sounds

1980
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,240
Speaker 6: nice taking Japan in and then all of a sudden

1981
01:45:47,280 --> 01:45:48,200
Speaker 6: there's a tsunami.

1982
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:51,679
Speaker 5: Sounds less nice. Yes, that sounds much less nice. Ryan,

1983
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:53,439
Speaker 5: that was a fascinating interview with Ahmed. Thank you for

1984
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 5: setting that up.

1985
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 3: I think Griffin took that one up. Thank you, Thank

1986
01:45:57,240 --> 01:45:57,639
Speaker 3: you Griffin.

1987
01:45:57,680 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 5: Pretty sure, Griffin. We'll be back here next Wednesday with

1988
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:04,880
Speaker 5: more Counterpoints. Remember to subscribe at breaking Points dot com.

1989
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:08,120
Speaker 5: You get the full episode of Counterpoints uninterrupted right in

1990
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:11,760
Speaker 5: your inbox. And we know krystalin Sager tis this in

1991
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:14,600
Speaker 5: an AMA for premium subs last week. So remember you

1992
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:16,880
Speaker 5: get the AMA access to with a premium subscription. But

1993
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:21,080
Speaker 5: we have some plans for the near future. Only if

1994
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:25,719
Speaker 5: you subscribed, Yeah, only if you subscribe. Promo code Ryan's tupey.

1995
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:29,360
Speaker 5: That's right, don't use that. It doesn't work.

1996
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:30,920
Speaker 3: No, an apostoph will break the link.

1997
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:34,559
Speaker 5: It's also not a t pey. It's not you can well,

1998
01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:37,280
Speaker 5: we'll have someone do the Jimmy fallon someday and grab

1999
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,360
Speaker 5: your head. But not today. Today's not today.

2000
01:46:39,400 --> 01:46:39,600
Speaker 13: For that.

2001
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:42,639
Speaker 4: But anyway, we'll see you guys next week.

2002
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:44,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe next week. We'll see you guys next week,

2003
01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:45,560
Speaker 5: back here on counterboards