WEBVTT - This Is the Booming Movement To Abolish Work as We Know It 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.560 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:19.599 I'm Joe Wasn't All, and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, we've 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.880 obviously done a number of episodes about the so called 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.759 labor shortage, but as you know, we kind of expressed 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:29.720 and it's sort of the case that we almost always 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.680 hear about this story from the perspective of a frustrated 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.520 employer having trouble or you know, finding solutions to hiring people. 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:40.960 But usually like we don't get the other side, which 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:45.239 is the perspective of frustrated workers and why workers may 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:47.159 not be wanting to take jobs that they might have 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.760 taken pre pandemic. That's right, So we hear a lot 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.600 from companies or businesses that are saying, you know, all 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.040 our workers are resigning and we can't figure out why, 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.680 and we're giving them higher wages, and we're offering to 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:04.319 pay or college tuition, and we're providing flexible working arrangements, 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.560 and still no one wants to come work for us. 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:08.720 And I think in one of our recent episodes you 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.440 were talking about starting a beige book for the labor market, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.319 which might be able to get at some of this 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.360 because in some respects. It almost doesn't feel like an 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.959 economic shift. It kind of feels like a cultural one. Yeah, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.480 that's the thing. Like everyone sort of poked around for 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.160 different theories, and I think they all hold like some validity. 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.920 You know, there's probably an element of still very significantly 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.120 the pandemic itself, whether that's affecting childcare arrangement or the 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.160 desire to go to a work site. I think it's 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.600 real early retirements maybe due to the wealth effect, could 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.200 be a thing, some changing of perspectives. I think a 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.360 lot of people are burnt out over the last two years, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.680 or realizing that they were burnt out previously, and that 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.160 could be shifting things. So, you know, lots of theories, 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.720 some supported by data, some supported by anecdotes, but you know, 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:00.720 there's not like one, from what I can tell, like 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.200 one answer to why this is. And I don't think 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.440 we're ever going to get one answer. No, I think 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.560 that's right. But you mentioned anecdotes, and there's one place 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.160 that has become sort of the go to place to 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:18.040 get those anecdotes about the great resignation and about people quitting, 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.040 and it is of course the sub bredit, the anti 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.800 work subredit. And if anyone's ever seen those screenshots of 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.119 people quitting in a really satisfying way. I have to say, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.799 you know, responding to bosses who are just being completely jerks. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.160 That's where a lot of those get posted. Tracy, you 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.680 can I tell you something. Yeah, I want to quitted 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:44.200 job in a really satisfying way. Did No? I didn't. 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.839 What did you do? I was working at a deli 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.720 making sandwiches and I don't know, my boss annoyed me 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.480 and I totally overreacted and I just like, that's it. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.400 I quit and I threw down my apron and I 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.760 walked out and it felt really good. And then ten 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:00.679 seconds later I was like, oh, I got I just 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.920 quit my job. I don't have any money, but it 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.240 did feel really good. Anyway, I'll tell you the longer 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.919 story sometime, but anyway, yes, let's get to the point 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.480 at hand. As you mentioned, the subredit are anti work 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.440 has been exploding. I think it was a pretty small 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.280 one at the beginning of the year. Now over a 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.200 million members, I believe, absolutely surging, sort of capturing this 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.800 zeitgeist that gets beyond economics of frustration with the labor 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.839 market from the from the perspective of employers or employees 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.120 or would be employees. So I'm very excited we're going 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.080 to be speaking to Dorene Ford when either original moderators 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.160 at our anti work Dorene also goes by the pseudonym 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:45.800 Dorene Claire online and she was the founder of abolished 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.840 work dot com. And so I'm very excited about this. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.040 We're gonna be learning about what the anti work movement 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.080 is all about and what brings people to the anti 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.800 work subredit. Drene, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, absolutely, man, 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:01.720 I I really would have loved to see you throw 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.360 your apron down on the floor. That that's like out 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.800 of a like a Hallmark film or something like that. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.640 It was really it was really satisfying. It was like 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.960 I was overreacting a little bit, but I was annoyed. 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.480 And my boss said something about how you messed something up, 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.839 and I felt like I was you know, I was 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:18.880 a pretty good employer, and it was like I've had 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.640 enough of this. Yeah I've had enough of this. Yeah, shocker, 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.680 I've I've had I've had really frustrating bosses. Never quit though. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.159 Surprisingly I'm pretty I'm pretty stubborn, so yeah, no, then, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.080 you know, I had to quit anyway, I think I 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:31.640 had known that it was. It was a bunch of 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.719 stuff getting going on anyway, during Thank you so much. 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.160 You're subreddit and you're one of the earlier you were 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.400 one of the founders of it, but an early moderator. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.560 Why do you just sort of like give us the 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.200 basic gist. How small was it at the beginning of 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.760 the year, how active is it now? And sort of 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.680 like what is what is it stand for? What does 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:54.120 the anti work movement mean? Yeah? So, I mean you 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.840 say we were small last year, but honestly, I don't know. 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.279 A hundred eighty thousand isn't too small, I guess not. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.360 We are around a hundred eighty thousand in October or 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.000 November of last year, but that is incredibly small compared 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.200 to where we are, which is about one point three million. 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.560 We call them idlers, but you know, you could say subscribers, followers, users, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.320 whatever you want to do. Yeah, I mean it's exploded. 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.640 We were just featured on the reddit recap of one red. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.320 The reddit st stats are apparently that we blew up 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:27.200 please pause for effect, two hundred and seventy from where 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.240 we were last year. I don't think I've ever seen 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.520 that statistic in my life. And I'm a big nerd 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.000 and I've read a lot of political statistics and economic statistics, 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.000 and you know, I'm not like super big into numbers, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.120 but I don't think I've ever literally ever heard anything 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.800 blow up to two D plus what it was the 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.360 year before. Um, so yeah, I mean we're big now. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.600 We had nine D ninety thousand users who were active yesterday, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.600 probably because of the Kellogg strikes now that I think 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.680 about it, But yeah, what we stand for so anti 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.440 work and my abolish work dot com are are overlapping 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.479 in a lot of ways. My Abolish Work is my 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.839 personal website, so you know, a lot of that stuff 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.880 there is gonna represent my personal opinion, not necessarily the 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.680 opinion of the entire movement, while the anti work subreddit 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.799 is more about the movement at large. We're a pretty 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.240 big tent movement. We have leftists of various kinds, anarchists, communist, 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.320 social democrats, et cetera. You know, people who are curious, 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.320 people who are just liberals. Pretty much, anyone's welcome as 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.320 long as you don't use the rules, abuse the rules. 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.840 And you know, obviously we're not super friendly towards conservatives 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.920 or you know, anybody further than that, of course. Yeah, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.599 what we stand for is is ideally a reduction of 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.600 work as much as possible. And what we mean by 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.800 work is not effort right. We're not against people going 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.000 in the backyard breaking up some leaves, putting in bags, whatever. 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.560 What we're against is this coursive element of work that 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.040 makes people have to work long chips for jobs they 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.840 don't like, for that are not paying them enough, and 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.200 as we've already learned, under jobs that under bosses that 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.440 don't respect them or annoy them, or whatever may be 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.440 the case. So that's that's a lot of of the 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.320 philosophy is reducing the amount of jobs that just have 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.080 no use for society, the amount of jobs that don't 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.800 give respect to their employees. It's not necessarily anti job, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.360 because I don't think even in the anti work society, 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.240 I think people will still have jobs. I just think 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.720 that they will have jobs that don't have that course 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.960 of element. You won't necessarily be worried about oh I 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.040 can't look, I can't not work, or I can't you know, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.080 because I'm disabled, or because I have to take care 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:36.960 of my family, or I have to do this or 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.120 that because you know, I might lose the house, or 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.200 I might not be able to pay rent, or I 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.120 might not be able to pay bills. So this is 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.200 this economic course of element that we're trying to eliminate. 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.800 You know, a lot of people just think like we're lazy, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.480 slackers or something like that, And like, I think laziness 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.880 and slacking off is actually a good thing, especially in 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.040 an economy where you're asked to work so often and 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.520 so consistently, especially in jobs that burn you out, even 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.200 when you do something you love. I work with dogs, 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.160 and it's so easy to get burnt out on something 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.480 that you love when you do it too often. But yeah, 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:10.040 that's that's a bit of what we're about. I don't 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.440 want to go out for too long. So the subpred 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.000 it itself has been around for a while, I think 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:19.200 since early but clearly, as you were laying out, the 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:24.600 membership has a number of idlers has absolutely surged. What 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.040 is it about the past year and a half or 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.200 so that that you think has made the message of 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:37.200 anti work really resonate with a lot more people. Yeah, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.520 I mean, I think part of it is obviously COVID. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.680 It's realizing that your boss was lying to you, that 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.280 you didn't need to come up for the show, up 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.960 for that meeting, that the commute wasn't that that one 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.360 hour commute there and back wasn't necessary for the job, 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.600 and that you've been wasting hours of your life listening 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:55.440 to podcasts that you're not even sure you wanted to 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.720 listen to. And I say that as a podcaster, by 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.440 the way, I think will realize that, yeah, I don't. 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.360 I don't have to do a lot of this stuff. 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.040 And I'm I'm pissed because my employers are taking advantage 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.120 of me. And it's pretty clear now that they don't 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.000 care about my health. They care about the wages that 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.800 i'm that they have to pay me. They're worried about 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.360 their profits, they're worried about their stockholders. They're not worried 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.040 about me as an individual. They're worried about me as 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.320 an individual unit of economy. Because of the pandemic, I 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.040 think a lot of people woke up to that. You know, 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.240 I'm big into video games. There has been a big 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.280 shift in the video game industry for remote work, and 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.240 even some companies instigating or implementing excuse me, four day 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.560 weeks and stuff like that, or at least talking about it. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.040 So I think this has been a seismic shift and 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.920 how people look at work. The other reason, the second reason, 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.319 I don't have a ton of things to say about this, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.800 but people are really going on about the great Resignation. 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.280 I'm not an economist, and despite what I said earlier, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.120 I'm not a statistician. So I don't know how true 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.400 it is that people are quitting in droves, but that 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.000 seems to be the perception at least, and perception few 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.520 was reality. So a lot of people, you know, are 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.520 reevaluating their relationships to work. That doesn't mean everyone's quitting, 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.280 but a lot of people, but at least some people 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.560 are quitting, I guess, And so that's fueling other people's 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:14.760 reactions to like, okay, like this is how I see 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.640 myself related to work, and that's also fueling membership. We also, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:20.920 of course blew up because this is the third and 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.840 final reason probably we had this. We were talking about 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:28.200 screenshots earlier. There was a tech based screenshot with a 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.400 person who told the brass off. I don't know if 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.240 they threw an apron, but they told the boss off, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.600 and they basically blew up. They got to the front 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.319 page of Reddit, which means we got to the front 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.199 page of Reddit. And I mean we were already blowing up, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.320 you know, to be honest, at that point, we were 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.800 getting a lot of really popular posts. There was thousands 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.360 of people on at a time. But I mean that 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.800 really took us into the stratosphere. And then of course 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.440 the media attention started. I mean, we've been we've been covered. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.440 I guess this is the fourth reason, but it's really 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.200 related to the third. We've been covered in Vice like 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.920 three or four times at this point, the New York Times. 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.160 We have been asked to be interviewed by German, Scandinavian 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.520 and uh a Dutch news outlet. You know, we've been 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:14.000 featured on Today, dot Com, Refinery twenty nine, Forbes. So yeah, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.480 we we've been all over at this point. Uh And 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.120 so yeah, I think all that, all that stuff has contributed, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.959 and now even the Odd Lots podcast. I want to 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.400 ask you, so everyone experienced some or not everyone, but 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.000 a lot of people from a range of sort of 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.360 socio economic positions experienced some major change to their lifestyle 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.120 over the last two years. And some people it just meant, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.600 you know, their normal job day to day that they 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.559 did in office and working from home. But there were 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.040 obviously a number of people for the first time in 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:50.560 those early months especially, we're freed from the connection between 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.920 having to work and having to sustain themselves, which is 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.040 pretty big. And these checks that went out that did 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.120 a decent job for a lot of uh work, So 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.280 we got laid off of almost fully replacing their income, 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:06.480 and that lasted for several months at the beginning of 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:11.920 the pandemic. These checks expanded unemployment insurance. How formative in 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.040 your view were those months in this sort of like 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:21.240 the experience of can separating income and being able to 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:24.720 self sustain from having to go into work In terms 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.720 of just getting people to sort of like reevaluate their 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.240 existence and their relationship to employment, I think it was 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.160 really impactful. I mean, again, I can't track aftery one's 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.559 individual motives for joining the subreddit or for giving my 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.640 site traffic. There's been It's quite a sort of a 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.640 down a downflow trickle down theory, if you will, of 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.360 the subreddit getting a ton of attention and therefore my 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.559 website getting like a modicum of that. I think I 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.800 get a couple of hundred views if I'm lucky per day, 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.800 which is great because honestly, I don't really write for 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.760 it anymore. Moderating has become kind of like what I 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.079 used to do in terms of writing, and I'm happy 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.160 for that, honestly, because is all I wanted to do 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.560 with the site is have the movement. I'd be like this, So, 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.559 I mean, in my mind, I've succeeded. The website doesn't 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.439 really need to even exist, but I just keep it 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.600 up because you know, some people have told me that 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.280 their writings have inspired them or or influenced them, uh 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.680 and and change their mind about things, which is super 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.920 flattering and deeply honored about that. But yeah, to get 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.040 back to your question, Yeah, I mean I can't I 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.760 can't know everyone's individual motives, but I'd have to say 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.080 that that would absolutely be something that would that would 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.000 fetch a lot of people for us, is that they're 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.840 reevaluating their positions to their income, to their bosses, to 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:41.720 their work. Um, I hope that answers that. So just 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.080 on that note, I mean, one of the things, well, 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.400 tell me if you disagree with this, but one of 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.679 the things that stands out to me from a lot 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.800 of the screenshots and the conversations with bosses um and 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.839 those sorts of stories of quitting that end up on 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:01.280 the subreddit. It's it mostly seems to be about people 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.000 getting really really angry at the situation and at their 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.240 bosses in particular. And I don't know, you don't see 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:13.880 that many complaints about things like wages or long working hours. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.360 I mean, it's mostly it seems to be service people 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.880 who are getting really mad because their boss has asked 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.920 them to go on a shift that they hadn't agreed to, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.920 and it's just assuming that they can kind of control 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.840 their employees live. So I don't know, I'm curious if 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.320 that's your impression and how you sort of weigh those 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.720 different factors when it comes to this trend of people quitting. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.680 There there's a lot of stuff in the background, right 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.720 that we just don't see and we can never know, 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.320 like a screenshot can only and I mean this literally figuratively. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.400 A screenshot can only capture so much about a given 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.560 context that people are coming from, and so we don't 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.440 know what led up to this moment. We don't know 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.000 if if wages were a thing beforehand, or if their 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.480 boss has always been a jerk to them as especially 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.520 you know, women have to deal with sexual harassment in 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.320 the workplace and stuff like that. We just don't know 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.120 if people what their context is. We just know what 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.880 conversation led to them finally quitting, and so it's a 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.800 death by a thousand cuts kind of thing, right, It's there. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.400 There might have been a million different indignities before that, 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.000 but that was the final straw. But on the other hand, yeah, 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.640 I mean, you're not wrong that a lot of those 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.760 texts screenshots aren't talking about wages or they aren't talking 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.720 about better working conditions. They're talking about, hey, I don't 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.440 want to come in for the shift, or hey I've 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:33.360 had enough with this job. You know, they say I've 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.280 had enough, they haven't said like specifically what. But like 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.320 in casual conversation, you're not gonna necessarily get into that 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.400 because you're kind of You're the whole point is that 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:42.920 you're kind of done and you don't want to waste 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.840 your time on your boss. So it lends itself to 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.800 a kind of casual conversation that unfortunately doesn't give us 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.120 a lot of data on why people are quitting or 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.400 telling their boss to shove it. But I do think 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.720 that a lot of those things don't help, for sure, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.920 people getting underpaid or people getting overworked. Um, I know 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.040 when I used to work and a dog, it's not 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.120 really a kennel, but it was like a doggy daycare. 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.200 I was overworked the heck it was, you know, and 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.320 I didn't it wasn't feeling like I got paid well 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.360 enough for ten bucks an hour and I was doing 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.160 the job of probably two people. You know, there's just 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.480 all these little indignities that I think don't get brought 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.840 into the context because people, when people have had enough, 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.720 they're not going to start eloquently going on on about 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.320 their wages or or anything else like that, because I 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.280 think they're done. But I still think it's a great 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.680 I still think it's a great point, um that we 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.440 largely don't see that. You're right, this is a really 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.520 interesting thing. You described the feeling of the stress of 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.240 having to work two jobs. And we actually we did 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:44.200 an episode recently with Stinson Dean and he owned a 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.640 fleet of one of his businesses involved in logistics, and 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.280 one of he one of the things that he said 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.520 that made hiring easier was purposely over hiring so that 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.240 nobody feels like, oh, they can't take a day off, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.800 or they're like, you know, having to pull extra shift 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.320 because that's at stress. But it seems like then there's 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:06.840 this compounding effect where okay, we think of labor the 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.480 frustration with the labor market is okay, employers, workers quit, 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.080 and then bosses are frustrated, and that's probably true, but 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.919 then that also must must place a lot of extra 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.879 strain on the workers who are still there, and to 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.439 the extent that bosses don't recognize that extra strain or 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.640 don't appreciate the extra lift that those remaining employees are 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.000 engaging in, and then that further makes the job undesirable, 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.080 and that that further probably increases the impulse to quit. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.840 I think that there's a large scale pattern of employers 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:43.120 under hiring and making sure that their workers feel overwhelmed 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.439 and stressed. I know that sounds conspiratorial. I'm not the 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.280 conspiracy type of person, but like I I've seen like 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.840 lots of people talking about this, lots of of patterns 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.960 of abuse of employers just under hiring so that their 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.320 workers always feel stressed, never feel like they can take 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.080 a day off, just have to work, work, work, and 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.760 they do this just because like it's just easier than 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.800 over hiring. It just makes more logistical sense to them. 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.159 I guess to just under higher than over higher. That 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.280 way they don't spread out, you know. That way, they 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:16.880 don't have to pay more people. That way, they don't 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.639 have to train more people. But there's some logical sense 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.800 to this, it's just a very twisted logic in my eye. Um, 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.520 And I think over hiring is a better practice. Absolutely. 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.840 I think you would have a less stressed out workplace. 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.240 I think, you know, abolished work. The the anti work movement, 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.159 I should say, is not just for this sort of 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.440 long term goal of having an anti work society and 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.520 and undermining capitalism and replacing with something else. You know, 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.640 those are great goals. Those are our long term, I think, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.600 core goals. But I don't think we're against shorter term 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.600 progress either necessarily. Um. I think it would be great 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.359 if this practice of under hiring employees would be would 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:55.959 be cut out. I think that would save a lot 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.200 of people a lot of straps, especially around the holiday times. 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.960 It would give a lot of people more piece of mind. Um. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:02.879 I don't think on the job that I talked about, 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:04.920 I almost never took a day off unless I was 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.080 incredibly sick, or unless I I just couldn't make it, 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.800 or yeah, I mean that was it. I don't think 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:13.359 I ever took a day off, and I ended up 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.679 getting fired from that job because I basically like slacked 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.760 off too much. Like, of course, I slacked off too much. 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.640 I was incredibly overwhelmed, Like I had to clean room 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.080 after room and after room, day after day after day, 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:25.800 and I had almost no one to back me up. 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.239 And I had been there at the longest anybody. I 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.159 think I had even been longer there than the owner. 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.200 And how is that possible, Well, because they had switched 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.399 owners in the two years I was there. That's how 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.520 bad the business was. They were still doing this practice 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.240 of like under hiring, and people were burning out. I 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.000 would see new faces almost every month, if not less. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.600 It was terrible. The problem in the pet industry really 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.719 for me and my experiences that they care way more 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.639 about the animals than they care about the people to 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:53.879 such a degree that I mean, it's just it's just 0:19:54.240 --> 0:20:12.240 raises your eyebrow, I am. I want to go back 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:17.000 to UM some specifics about the COVID situation, and one 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.480 of the unusual things about and the way the government 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:26.800 actually responded to this health crisis and also economic crisis 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:31.440 was that they gave out extra unemployment checks, so people 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.280 got more money if they lost their jobs. And I'm 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.400 just curious what your impression is of the role of those, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.359 you know, additional unemployment checks or stimulus payments. Was it 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.400 you know, people got more money from the government, so 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.959 they just didn't want to go to work at all 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:50.679 and they didn't have to. Or was it more that 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.920 people got money and they had a sort of bridge 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.960