1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wasn't All, and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, we've 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: obviously done a number of episodes about the so called 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: labor shortage, but as you know, we kind of expressed 5 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: and it's sort of the case that we almost always 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: hear about this story from the perspective of a frustrated 7 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: employer having trouble or you know, finding solutions to hiring people. 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: But usually like we don't get the other side, which 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: is the perspective of frustrated workers and why workers may 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: not be wanting to take jobs that they might have 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: taken pre pandemic. That's right, So we hear a lot 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: from companies or businesses that are saying, you know, all 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: our workers are resigning and we can't figure out why, 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: and we're giving them higher wages, and we're offering to 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: pay or college tuition, and we're providing flexible working arrangements, 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: and still no one wants to come work for us. 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: And I think in one of our recent episodes you 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: were talking about starting a beige book for the labor market, 19 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: which might be able to get at some of this 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: because in some respects. It almost doesn't feel like an 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: economic shift. It kind of feels like a cultural one. Yeah, 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: that's the thing. Like everyone sort of poked around for 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: different theories, and I think they all hold like some validity. 24 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: You know, there's probably an element of still very significantly 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: the pandemic itself, whether that's affecting childcare arrangement or the 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: desire to go to a work site. I think it's 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: real early retirements maybe due to the wealth effect, could 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: be a thing, some changing of perspectives. I think a 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: lot of people are burnt out over the last two years, 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: or realizing that they were burnt out previously, and that 31 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: could be shifting things. So, you know, lots of theories, 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: some supported by data, some supported by anecdotes, but you know, 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: there's not like one, from what I can tell, like 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: one answer to why this is. And I don't think 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: we're ever going to get one answer. No, I think 36 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: that's right. But you mentioned anecdotes, and there's one place 37 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: that has become sort of the go to place to 38 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: get those anecdotes about the great resignation and about people quitting, 39 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: and it is of course the sub bredit, the anti 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: work subredit. And if anyone's ever seen those screenshots of 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 1: people quitting in a really satisfying way. I have to say, 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: you know, responding to bosses who are just being completely jerks. 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: That's where a lot of those get posted. Tracy, you 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: can I tell you something. Yeah, I want to quitted 45 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: job in a really satisfying way. Did No? I didn't. 46 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 1: What did you do? I was working at a deli 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: making sandwiches and I don't know, my boss annoyed me 48 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: and I totally overreacted and I just like, that's it. 49 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: I quit and I threw down my apron and I 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: walked out and it felt really good. And then ten 51 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 1: seconds later I was like, oh, I got I just 52 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: quit my job. I don't have any money, but it 53 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: did feel really good. Anyway, I'll tell you the longer 54 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: story sometime, but anyway, yes, let's get to the point 55 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: at hand. As you mentioned, the subredit are anti work 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: has been exploding. I think it was a pretty small 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: one at the beginning of the year. Now over a 58 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: million members, I believe, absolutely surging, sort of capturing this 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: zeitgeist that gets beyond economics of frustration with the labor 60 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: market from the from the perspective of employers or employees 61 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: or would be employees. So I'm very excited we're going 62 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: to be speaking to Dorene Ford when either original moderators 63 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: at our anti work Dorene also goes by the pseudonym 64 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: Dorene Claire online and she was the founder of abolished 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: work dot com. And so I'm very excited about this. 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna be learning about what the anti work movement 67 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: is all about and what brings people to the anti 68 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: work subredit. Drene, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, absolutely, man, 69 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: I I really would have loved to see you throw 70 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: your apron down on the floor. That that's like out 71 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: of a like a Hallmark film or something like that. 72 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: It was really it was really satisfying. It was like 73 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: I was overreacting a little bit, but I was annoyed. 74 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: And my boss said something about how you messed something up, 75 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: and I felt like I was you know, I was 76 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: a pretty good employer, and it was like I've had 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: enough of this. Yeah I've had enough of this. Yeah, shocker, 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: I've I've had I've had really frustrating bosses. Never quit though. 79 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: Surprisingly I'm pretty I'm pretty stubborn, so yeah, no, then, 80 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, I had to quit anyway, I think I 81 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: had known that it was. It was a bunch of 82 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: stuff getting going on anyway, during Thank you so much. 83 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: You're subreddit and you're one of the earlier you were 84 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: one of the founders of it, but an early moderator. 85 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: Why do you just sort of like give us the 86 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: basic gist. How small was it at the beginning of 87 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: the year, how active is it now? And sort of 88 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: like what is what is it stand for? What does 89 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: the anti work movement mean? Yeah? So, I mean you 90 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: say we were small last year, but honestly, I don't know. 91 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: A hundred eighty thousand isn't too small, I guess not. 92 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: We are around a hundred eighty thousand in October or 93 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: November of last year, but that is incredibly small compared 94 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: to where we are, which is about one point three million. 95 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: We call them idlers, but you know, you could say subscribers, followers, users, 96 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: whatever you want to do. Yeah, I mean it's exploded. 97 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: We were just featured on the reddit recap of one red. 98 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: The reddit st stats are apparently that we blew up 99 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: please pause for effect, two hundred and seventy from where 100 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: we were last year. I don't think I've ever seen 101 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: that statistic in my life. And I'm a big nerd 102 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: and I've read a lot of political statistics and economic statistics, 103 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm not like super big into numbers, 104 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: but I don't think I've ever literally ever heard anything 105 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: blow up to two D plus what it was the 106 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: year before. Um, so yeah, I mean we're big now. 107 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: We had nine D ninety thousand users who were active yesterday, 108 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: probably because of the Kellogg strikes now that I think 109 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: about it, But yeah, what we stand for so anti 110 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: work and my abolish work dot com are are overlapping 111 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. My Abolish Work is my 112 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: personal website, so you know, a lot of that stuff 113 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: there is gonna represent my personal opinion, not necessarily the 114 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: opinion of the entire movement, while the anti work subreddit 115 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 1: is more about the movement at large. We're a pretty 116 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: big tent movement. We have leftists of various kinds, anarchists, communist, 117 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: social democrats, et cetera. You know, people who are curious, 118 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: people who are just liberals. Pretty much, anyone's welcome as 119 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: long as you don't use the rules, abuse the rules. 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: And you know, obviously we're not super friendly towards conservatives 121 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: or you know, anybody further than that, of course. Yeah, 122 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: what we stand for is is ideally a reduction of 123 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: work as much as possible. And what we mean by 124 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: work is not effort right. We're not against people going 125 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: in the backyard breaking up some leaves, putting in bags, whatever. 126 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: What we're against is this coursive element of work that 127 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: makes people have to work long chips for jobs they 128 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: don't like, for that are not paying them enough, and 129 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: as we've already learned, under jobs that under bosses that 130 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: don't respect them or annoy them, or whatever may be 131 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: the case. So that's that's a lot of of the 132 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: philosophy is reducing the amount of jobs that just have 133 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: no use for society, the amount of jobs that don't 134 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: give respect to their employees. It's not necessarily anti job, 135 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: because I don't think even in the anti work society, 136 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: I think people will still have jobs. I just think 137 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: that they will have jobs that don't have that course 138 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: of element. You won't necessarily be worried about oh I 139 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: can't look, I can't not work, or I can't you know, 140 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: because I'm disabled, or because I have to take care 141 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: of my family, or I have to do this or 142 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: that because you know, I might lose the house, or 143 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: I might not be able to pay rent, or I 144 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: might not be able to pay bills. So this is 145 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: this economic course of element that we're trying to eliminate. 146 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people just think like we're lazy, 147 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: slackers or something like that, And like, I think laziness 148 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: and slacking off is actually a good thing, especially in 149 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: an economy where you're asked to work so often and 150 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: so consistently, especially in jobs that burn you out, even 151 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: when you do something you love. I work with dogs, 152 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: and it's so easy to get burnt out on something 153 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: that you love when you do it too often. But yeah, 154 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: that's that's a bit of what we're about. I don't 155 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: want to go out for too long. So the subpred 156 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: it itself has been around for a while, I think 157 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: since early but clearly, as you were laying out, the 158 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: membership has a number of idlers has absolutely surged. What 159 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: is it about the past year and a half or 160 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: so that that you think has made the message of 161 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: anti work really resonate with a lot more people. Yeah, 162 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of it is obviously COVID. 163 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: It's realizing that your boss was lying to you, that 164 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: you didn't need to come up for the show, up 165 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: for that meeting, that the commute wasn't that that one 166 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: hour commute there and back wasn't necessary for the job, 167 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: and that you've been wasting hours of your life listening 168 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: to podcasts that you're not even sure you wanted to 169 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: listen to. And I say that as a podcaster, by 170 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: the way, I think will realize that, yeah, I don't. 171 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't have to do a lot of this stuff. 172 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm pissed because my employers are taking advantage 173 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: of me. And it's pretty clear now that they don't 174 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: care about my health. They care about the wages that 175 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: i'm that they have to pay me. They're worried about 176 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: their profits, they're worried about their stockholders. They're not worried 177 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: about me as an individual. They're worried about me as 178 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: an individual unit of economy. Because of the pandemic, I 179 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: think a lot of people woke up to that. You know, 180 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm big into video games. There has been a big 181 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: shift in the video game industry for remote work, and 182 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: even some companies instigating or implementing excuse me, four day 183 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: weeks and stuff like that, or at least talking about it. 184 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: So I think this has been a seismic shift and 185 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: how people look at work. The other reason, the second reason, 186 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: I don't have a ton of things to say about this, 187 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: but people are really going on about the great Resignation. 188 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: I'm not an economist, and despite what I said earlier, 189 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: I'm not a statistician. So I don't know how true 190 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: it is that people are quitting in droves, but that 191 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: seems to be the perception at least, and perception few 192 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: was reality. So a lot of people, you know, are 193 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: reevaluating their relationships to work. That doesn't mean everyone's quitting, 194 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: but a lot of people, but at least some people 195 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: are quitting, I guess, And so that's fueling other people's 196 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: reactions to like, okay, like this is how I see 197 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: myself related to work, and that's also fueling membership. We also, 198 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: of course blew up because this is the third and 199 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: final reason probably we had this. We were talking about 200 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: screenshots earlier. There was a tech based screenshot with a 201 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: person who told the brass off. I don't know if 202 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: they threw an apron, but they told the boss off, 203 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: and they basically blew up. They got to the front 204 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: page of Reddit, which means we got to the front 205 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: page of Reddit. And I mean we were already blowing up, 206 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, at that point, we were 207 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: getting a lot of really popular posts. There was thousands 208 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: of people on at a time. But I mean that 209 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: really took us into the stratosphere. And then of course 210 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: the media attention started. I mean, we've been we've been covered. 211 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: I guess this is the fourth reason, but it's really 212 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: related to the third. We've been covered in Vice like 213 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: three or four times at this point, the New York Times. 214 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: We have been asked to be interviewed by German, Scandinavian 215 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: and uh a Dutch news outlet. You know, we've been 216 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: featured on Today, dot Com, Refinery twenty nine, Forbes. So yeah, 217 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: we we've been all over at this point. Uh And 218 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: so yeah, I think all that, all that stuff has contributed, 219 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: and now even the Odd Lots podcast. I want to 220 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: ask you, so everyone experienced some or not everyone, but 221 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people from a range of sort of 222 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: socio economic positions experienced some major change to their lifestyle 223 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: over the last two years. And some people it just meant, 224 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, their normal job day to day that they 225 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: did in office and working from home. But there were 226 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: obviously a number of people for the first time in 227 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: those early months especially, we're freed from the connection between 228 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: having to work and having to sustain themselves, which is 229 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: pretty big. And these checks that went out that did 230 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: a decent job for a lot of uh work, So 231 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: we got laid off of almost fully replacing their income, 232 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: and that lasted for several months at the beginning of 233 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: the pandemic. These checks expanded unemployment insurance. How formative in 234 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: your view were those months in this sort of like 235 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the experience of can separating income and being able to 236 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: self sustain from having to go into work In terms 237 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: of just getting people to sort of like reevaluate their 238 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: existence and their relationship to employment, I think it was 239 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: really impactful. I mean, again, I can't track aftery one's 240 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: individual motives for joining the subreddit or for giving my 241 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: site traffic. There's been It's quite a sort of a 242 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: down a downflow trickle down theory, if you will, of 243 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: the subreddit getting a ton of attention and therefore my 244 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: website getting like a modicum of that. I think I 245 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: get a couple of hundred views if I'm lucky per day, 246 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: which is great because honestly, I don't really write for 247 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: it anymore. Moderating has become kind of like what I 248 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: used to do in terms of writing, and I'm happy 249 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: for that, honestly, because is all I wanted to do 250 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: with the site is have the movement. I'd be like this, So, 251 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: I mean, in my mind, I've succeeded. The website doesn't 252 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: really need to even exist, but I just keep it 253 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: up because you know, some people have told me that 254 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: their writings have inspired them or or influenced them, uh 255 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: and and change their mind about things, which is super 256 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: flattering and deeply honored about that. But yeah, to get 257 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: back to your question, Yeah, I mean I can't I 258 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: can't know everyone's individual motives, but I'd have to say 259 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: that that would absolutely be something that would that would 260 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: fetch a lot of people for us, is that they're 261 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: reevaluating their positions to their income, to their bosses, to 262 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: their work. Um, I hope that answers that. So just 263 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: on that note, I mean, one of the things, well, 264 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: tell me if you disagree with this, but one of 265 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: the things that stands out to me from a lot 266 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: of the screenshots and the conversations with bosses um and 267 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: those sorts of stories of quitting that end up on 268 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: the subreddit. It's it mostly seems to be about people 269 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: getting really really angry at the situation and at their 270 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: bosses in particular. And I don't know, you don't see 271 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: that many complaints about things like wages or long working hours. 272 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's mostly it seems to be service people 273 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: who are getting really mad because their boss has asked 274 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: them to go on a shift that they hadn't agreed to, 275 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: and it's just assuming that they can kind of control 276 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: their employees live. So I don't know, I'm curious if 277 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: that's your impression and how you sort of weigh those 278 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: different factors when it comes to this trend of people quitting. 279 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: There there's a lot of stuff in the background, right 280 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: that we just don't see and we can never know, 281 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: like a screenshot can only and I mean this literally figuratively. 282 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: A screenshot can only capture so much about a given 283 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: context that people are coming from, and so we don't 284 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: know what led up to this moment. We don't know 285 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: if if wages were a thing beforehand, or if their 286 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: boss has always been a jerk to them as especially 287 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, women have to deal with sexual harassment in 288 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: the workplace and stuff like that. We just don't know 289 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: if people what their context is. We just know what 290 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: conversation led to them finally quitting, and so it's a 291 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: death by a thousand cuts kind of thing, right, It's there. 292 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: There might have been a million different indignities before that, 293 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: but that was the final straw. But on the other hand, yeah, 294 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you're not wrong that a lot of those 295 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: texts screenshots aren't talking about wages or they aren't talking 296 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: about better working conditions. They're talking about, hey, I don't 297 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: want to come in for the shift, or hey I've 298 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: had enough with this job. You know, they say I've 299 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: had enough, they haven't said like specifically what. But like 300 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: in casual conversation, you're not gonna necessarily get into that 301 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: because you're kind of You're the whole point is that 302 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: you're kind of done and you don't want to waste 303 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: your time on your boss. So it lends itself to 304 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: a kind of casual conversation that unfortunately doesn't give us 305 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: a lot of data on why people are quitting or 306 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: telling their boss to shove it. But I do think 307 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: that a lot of those things don't help, for sure, 308 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: people getting underpaid or people getting overworked. Um, I know 309 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: when I used to work and a dog, it's not 310 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: really a kennel, but it was like a doggy daycare. 311 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: I was overworked the heck it was, you know, and 312 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: I didn't it wasn't feeling like I got paid well 313 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: enough for ten bucks an hour and I was doing 314 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: the job of probably two people. You know, there's just 315 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: all these little indignities that I think don't get brought 316 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: into the context because people, when people have had enough, 317 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: they're not going to start eloquently going on on about 318 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: their wages or or anything else like that, because I 319 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: think they're done. But I still think it's a great 320 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: I still think it's a great point, um that we 321 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: largely don't see that. You're right, this is a really 322 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: interesting thing. You described the feeling of the stress of 323 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: having to work two jobs. And we actually we did 324 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: an episode recently with Stinson Dean and he owned a 325 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: fleet of one of his businesses involved in logistics, and 326 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: one of he one of the things that he said 327 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: that made hiring easier was purposely over hiring so that 328 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: nobody feels like, oh, they can't take a day off, 329 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: or they're like, you know, having to pull extra shift 330 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: because that's at stress. But it seems like then there's 331 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: this compounding effect where okay, we think of labor the 332 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: frustration with the labor market is okay, employers, workers quit, 333 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: and then bosses are frustrated, and that's probably true, but 334 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: then that also must must place a lot of extra 335 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: strain on the workers who are still there, and to 336 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: the extent that bosses don't recognize that extra strain or 337 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: don't appreciate the extra lift that those remaining employees are 338 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: engaging in, and then that further makes the job undesirable, 339 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: and that that further probably increases the impulse to quit. 340 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: I think that there's a large scale pattern of employers 341 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: under hiring and making sure that their workers feel overwhelmed 342 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: and stressed. I know that sounds conspiratorial. I'm not the 343 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: conspiracy type of person, but like I I've seen like 344 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: lots of people talking about this, lots of of patterns 345 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: of abuse of employers just under hiring so that their 346 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: workers always feel stressed, never feel like they can take 347 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: a day off, just have to work, work, work, and 348 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: they do this just because like it's just easier than 349 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: over hiring. It just makes more logistical sense to them. 350 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 1: I guess to just under higher than over higher. That 351 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: way they don't spread out, you know. That way, they 352 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: don't have to pay more people. That way, they don't 353 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: have to train more people. But there's some logical sense 354 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: to this, it's just a very twisted logic in my eye. Um, 355 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: And I think over hiring is a better practice. Absolutely. 356 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: I think you would have a less stressed out workplace. 357 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, abolished work. The the anti work movement, 358 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: I should say, is not just for this sort of 359 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: long term goal of having an anti work society and 360 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: and undermining capitalism and replacing with something else. You know, 361 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: those are great goals. Those are our long term, I think, 362 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: core goals. But I don't think we're against shorter term 363 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: progress either necessarily. Um. I think it would be great 364 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: if this practice of under hiring employees would be would 365 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: be cut out. I think that would save a lot 366 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: of people a lot of straps, especially around the holiday times. 367 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: It would give a lot of people more piece of mind. Um. 368 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: I don't think on the job that I talked about, 369 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: I almost never took a day off unless I was 370 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: incredibly sick, or unless I I just couldn't make it, 371 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: or yeah, I mean that was it. I don't think 372 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: I ever took a day off, and I ended up 373 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: getting fired from that job because I basically like slacked 374 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: off too much. Like, of course, I slacked off too much. 375 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: I was incredibly overwhelmed, Like I had to clean room 376 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: after room and after room, day after day after day, 377 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: and I had almost no one to back me up. 378 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,239 Speaker 1: And I had been there at the longest anybody. I 379 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: think I had even been longer there than the owner. 380 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: And how is that possible, Well, because they had switched 381 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: owners in the two years I was there. That's how 382 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: bad the business was. They were still doing this practice 383 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: of like under hiring, and people were burning out. I 384 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: would see new faces almost every month, if not less. 385 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: It was terrible. The problem in the pet industry really 386 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: for me and my experiences that they care way more 387 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: about the animals than they care about the people to 388 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: such a degree that I mean, it's just it's just 389 00:19:54,240 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: raises your eyebrow, I am. I want to go back 390 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: to UM some specifics about the COVID situation, and one 391 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: of the unusual things about and the way the government 392 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: actually responded to this health crisis and also economic crisis 393 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: was that they gave out extra unemployment checks, so people 394 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: got more money if they lost their jobs. And I'm 395 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: just curious what your impression is of the role of those, 396 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: you know, additional unemployment checks or stimulus payments. Was it 397 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, people got more money from the government, so 398 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: they just didn't want to go to work at all 399 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: and they didn't have to. Or was it more that 400 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: people got money and they had a sort of bridge 401 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: that they could build between jobs that they couldn't do before. 402 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: I think the governant like stimulus packages were like putting 403 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: a band aid on an open wound kind of the 404 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: or like a gaping hole, you know. I I think 405 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: it was a It helped a lot of people. Don't 406 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, it helped me. Um, I'm I'm 407 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: not very rich myself, so it's certainly seeing that six hundred, 408 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: eight hundred whatever that a few times was great. Uh, 409 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: it was a bit of a shot in the arm 410 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: to my wallet. But I mean, ultimately it's just not enough. 411 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of poor people, being poor 412 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: is really expensive. The economy is tailored in such a 413 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: way to make being poor very expensive, whether you're buying 414 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: take out, whether you're buying snack food, whether you're trying 415 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: to engage in some entertainment outside like movie theaters. A 416 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: lot of things are just really expensive if you're poor. 417 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: And so unfortunately, although that that was a nice gesture 418 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: and it helped some people, I just don't think it's 419 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: enough to say that it was a bridge. I think uh, 420 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: And I think it was certainly helpful for people who 421 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: didn't want to work, and of course, why wouldn't they 422 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: why would they want to work, and we were in 423 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: the middle of a pandemic. I could from experience that 424 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: it didn't really help me too much in the long term. 425 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: Basically when I tried to file for unemployment because I 426 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: had been fired. And this is the only time, by 427 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the way, in my life of almost ten years working 428 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: or so, that I had ever been fired, So it's 429 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: not like I had a history or anything like that. Yeah, 430 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: when I filed for it, I said, well, my my 431 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: roommate is immuno compromise, so I don't think I'm gonna 432 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: work anytime soon. And they're like, okay, well then you're 433 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: not getting unemployment. I like but I don't want to 434 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: kill my like like you know. Things That was still 435 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: when the pandemic was fairly new. We weren't sure about 436 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: how viral the infection was. I knew to wear a 437 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: mask and stuff like that, but the vaccines hadn't anywhere 438 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: come anywhere, weren't anywhere close to being come being out 439 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 1: at that point. And so in my experience, you know, 440 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: what really helped me was the college I I went to, 441 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: because they dispersed some excess funds that I hadn't used 442 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: for my loans and they gave that back to me. 443 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: And that is really what coasted me along for the 444 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: rest of the year. Uh was I was able to 445 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: not have a job for most of and of course, 446 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: again my my roommate was immuno compromise. I didn't want 447 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: to have a job anyway because I didn't want to 448 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: risk killing her. And of course now we have vaccines, 449 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: we have the booster shots, we know proper mass protocol. 450 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: Things are a lot different. Um and I have have 451 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: a couple of part time jobs and at work and 452 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm at school full time. I don't really think it 453 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: helps people. Uh in my experience, of course, I can 454 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: only speak for myself, not for all of America, but 455 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: my general impression is that, yeah, like I said at 456 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: the beginning, it was like putting a band aid on 457 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: a gaping hole, like it's a it's a nice gesture, 458 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: but it's not much more. I'm curious you mentioned to 459 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: kill Ogg strike as being a very, uh, sort of 460 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: big moment in terms of bringing a lot of attention 461 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: back to your site. I talk to us a little 462 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,479 Speaker 1: bit about how you see the labor movement and strikes, 463 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: and we have seen a lot of strikes in more 464 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: this year than recently. We have seen a seemingly pick 465 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: up an interest in the idea of unionization. What's what's 466 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 1: the relationship sort of in your mind between sort of 467 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: your broader goals, the abolished work goals, and what the 468 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: labor movement unionization can do for workers into here and now. Yeah. Absolutely, 469 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: Um again, Uh, that's a great question, and I again 470 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: want to reiterate that the the anti work movement is 471 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: absolutely for short term benefits for the workers and stuff 472 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: like that. You know, I would be I would be 473 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: happy if better wages, better working conditions, less boss interference, 474 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: and workers you know, more cooperatives, worker cooperatives that is 475 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: were formed. Yeah, I'm a big proponent of unions. I 476 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: think they're great. We did a Reddit talk. Unfortunately we 477 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: couldn't record it because Reddit doesn't have that kind of 478 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: functionality yet, but it will very soon, so when we 479 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: do the next one, uh it'll have we'll be able 480 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: to record it. But we had a Reddit talk, which 481 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: is basically like a live podcast, and a lot of 482 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: the moderators came on to answer the community's questions. And 483 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: in the second hour we had a couple of people 484 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: come on, and we had a user come on who 485 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: was a union member and talked about out just very 486 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: passionately for about fifteen minutes, maybe twenty. We probably let 487 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: him go on a little too long, but we were 488 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: we were new to the whole thing, but very passionately 489 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: about how unions have helped him, how they helped his wages, 490 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: how they gave him more benefits. Just a very basic union. 491 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, a radical union like Industrial 492 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: Workers of the World or i w W. It's not like, 493 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: you know, he's looking for like completely radical things like 494 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: the abolition of capitalism or something. Yeah, I think labor 495 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: strikes and unions both have very much to do with 496 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: the anti work movement. I think strikes and unions and 497 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: direct action, which is basically like protests or you know, 498 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: activism that doesn't require like a leader or doesn't require 499 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: a central head of authority to uh instigate. So I'm 500 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: not really talking about like voting or anything like that, 501 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: but direct action in general, I think is the way 502 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: to go. I think direct action gets the goods, as 503 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: the I w W used to say and still do say. 504 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think strikes and unions have a 505 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: very big place. Yesterday I was in a convenience store 506 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: and I was getting some cereal. I looked around and 507 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, Like almost everything is Kellogg's. 508 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: I bought like a different brand, but like it was 509 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: like one of the few brands that was in Kellogg's. 510 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: Like the monopoly they have on cereal is wild. It's 511 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: so imperceptible because we're just so used to it. But 512 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: I think if you really like look and like be 513 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: mindful of it, look, I think you'll you'll notice, like 514 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: how much of a monopoly they have on Siria's ridiculous. 515 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, all my best to the workers who are striking. 516 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: We are considering pinning a thread or two about the strike. 517 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: We just haven't come to a consensus on what yet, 518 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: but definitely we support all the workers. Yeah. So you 519 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: have been influential when it comes to supporting some of 520 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: these movements and one of the ones that you were 521 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: supporting was the blackout Black Friday initiative. How did that go? Yeah, 522 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 1: so that was a bit of a mixed affair. I 523 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: think we really jumped the gun on that. We wanted 524 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: to make a big impression. We wanted to do a 525 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: big action, but unfortunately it kind of we kind of 526 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: pinned the user's idea that was talking about a ten 527 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: day strike, and that was not our original proposition. It 528 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: was about a one day or three day strike at most. 529 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: And someone started talking about ten day strikes. Someone's like, 530 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, let's strike year round, etcetera, etcetera. You know, 531 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: we're a big movement, but we are not big in 532 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: the way that people think we are. We have one 533 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: point three million people, but it's not like we all 534 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: live in Arkansas. It's not like we all live in 535 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: one given state. I just picked Arkansas, Rana, by the way. 536 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: It's not like we all live in one state, one country, 537 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: one city. You know, it's we're all dispersed across the world, 538 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: so that one point three million, it's smaller than you think. 539 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not like diminishing the the achievments that 540 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: we've we've reached, but I also want us to be 541 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: careful about not getting ahead of ourselves, because one point 542 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: three million is awesome, it's terrific, but it's spread out 543 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: across the globe. And yes, most of our audience, if 544 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: you've seen a recent survey we did, is from the 545 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: United States by and large. But even among the United States, 546 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure as everyone here knows, pretty big 547 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: country and and there's a lot of farmland and country 548 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: land that's not even being used on top of that. 549 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 1: So we're a big movement, but we're also an online movement, 550 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: and I think we kind of forgot about that and 551 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: got carried away and wanted to, like, like I said, 552 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: make a big impression. So what we did instead was 553 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: we lad we lend ourselves to the make Amazon Pay 554 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: campaign over the over the Friday Black Friday weekend, and 555 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: basically it was just boycotting Amazon, pretty mild action, honestly, 556 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: boycotting you know, their services and stuff as much as possible. Obviously, 557 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: it's very difficult. Amazon's very entrenched in the whole Internet 558 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: superstructure as it is because they use this they use 559 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: this like framework called AWS or something like that. It's 560 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: basically based in everything. So it's very difficult to get 561 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: away from Amazon. But we did the best we could 562 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: with what we had, so we had to back off 563 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: from the blackout, and I think a lot of people 564 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: were upset about that. They felt we were going back 565 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: on the movement. So many people call this corporate chills 566 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: or that we were selling out the movement. But I 567 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: think and that's the that that's the rest of you 568 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: run in a radical leftist movement, right, is that anybody 569 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: who doesn't agree with you can sometimes be labeled, uh 570 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: you know such. I mean, I don't think it's like 571 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: super widespread, but the Internet definitely brings out that corner 572 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: of like your your movement that's going to do that. 573 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question if you don't mind, 574 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know, like when people think historically about 575 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: labor activism or unions, I think, you know, people have 576 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: this idea of people in hard hats holding their fist 577 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: of the air, standing in a picket line outside of 578 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: a plant or a factory with signs, etcetera. And of 579 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: course that's still a very real phenomenon those images that 580 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: people historically have of unions. But on the other hand, 581 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: your movement and a lot of what sort of like 582 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: the interest in labor market activism strikes me as being 583 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: a little more decentralized, a little more um, you know, 584 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: as you put it, you're not you're it's an online movement, 585 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: a little more ad hoc maybe direct actions that protests 586 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: that aren't a result of like some union vote with 587 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: a local union leader, etcetera. And I'm curious whether you 588 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: think like ultimately, uh, you know, people you know, I'm 589 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: just sort of in your crystal ball. Do people like 590 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: and they and they fantasize or they hope for a 591 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: resurgence of a labor movement or union movement in this country. 592 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: Is it going to look different in your view than 593 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: what it historically has or could it be this sort 594 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: of like big on the ground, uh, centralized unions, Like 595 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: what's the future in your view? What does it look like? 596 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: More like what you do are more like what they do. 597 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be I'm gonna be boring here, 598 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: and I said, and I think it's gonna be a mix. 599 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: The look the genies out of the bottle. We can't 600 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: put the Internet back, God help us. I kind of 601 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: wish we could sometimes, but like, we can't put the 602 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: Internet back. We can't put technology back where it was, 603 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: you know, really messed up. Stuff would have to happen 604 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: for that to happen, and I don't want it to happen. 605 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: I like a lot of things about the Internet, even 606 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: though I don't like a lot of things about the 607 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: indreet To my boring answer is, I think it's gonna 608 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: be a mixed I think there's gonna be the the 609 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: on the ground, boots on the ground kind of kind 610 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: of union organizing, holding the line, picket picket lines, protesting 611 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: outside given workshop, where places, factories, whatever. But I also think, yeah, 612 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of quote unquote sell activism. 613 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: There's gonna be a lot of online organizing organizing. There's 614 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of like like mutual aid from 615 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: online sources, you know, using go fund means or using 616 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: India go go or whatever. There's there's gonna be all 617 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: of these online ways that we've developed over the past 618 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: twenty years, you know, Twitter and Facebook and all the 619 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: social media to organize that. I just don't think it's 620 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: ever gonna go away. And and if you look at it, honestly, 621 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: all of that union organizing that we're talking about, the 622 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: boots on the ground, the Kellogg stuff, the John Deer stuff, 623 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, there's been a lot of 624 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: strikes this year, all that stuff has used online organizing 625 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: as well. It hasn't just been boots on the ground, 626 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: it's also been online. So I really think that speaks 627 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: to my point about it being both. I think the 628 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: future of union organizing is on the ground, but I 629 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: also think it's up in the air. It's up in 630 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: the air, it's it's online. Mike crystal Ball is is 631 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: on the fritz right now. But if I could give 632 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: my best guests, I mean, that's that's what I think. 633 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: I think we're going to continue to see more decentralized, 634 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: affiliating unions, which is kind of what I want to see, 635 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, I want more and more unions. I want 636 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: unionization to come back. Um, it's so rare in the 637 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: private sector and it's only barely a thing in the 638 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: in the public sector, and even in the public sector. 639 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: There are some aspects of it that are not good. 640 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: There's you know, I'm not uncritically pro union. There are 641 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: some bad unions out there that have union leaders that 642 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: are not good or that just protect people that shouldn't 643 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: be protected. I'm not gonna get the specifics, but I mean, 644 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure some of the listeners can think about who 645 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm talking about here, Like I said, Crystal Hall in 646 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: the Fritz, but I think it's going to be a 647 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: mixed So you brought up pros and cons of the Internet, 648 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: and I wondered if I could maybe ask you a 649 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: personal question related to that. But I imagine being moderator 650 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: of an enormously successful sub breddit takes up a lot 651 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: of your time, and I guess they're some irony there 652 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: in the sense that you are providing a very valuable 653 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: service and presumably doing a lot of work and not 654 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: necessarily getting paid or compensated for it in a traditional way. 655 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: How do you how do you sort of think about 656 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: that and how you divide up and dedicate your own 657 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: time to these different causes. So my my answer to 658 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: that is partly what I said the beginning, right, anti 659 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: work is not anti effort. I I'm totally fine with 660 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: putting a lot of effort into things that I care about, 661 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: and I happen to care about the movement, So there's 662 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: no contradiction. There A lot of people seem to think 663 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: there is, but there isn't. Please please please go tell 664 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,719 Speaker 1: everyone that I'm not getting paid for this, because some 665 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: people are definitely under the misapprehension that I get paid 666 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: for this, and I assure you I do not. I don't. 667 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: I have like a perfect answer like no, it's not 668 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: stressful at all, and it never gets all my nerves 669 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: and I'm all but happy to submit my time to 670 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: the movement. No, it sucks sometimes, you know. Some people 671 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: are jerks. Some people troll us, some people flame us. 672 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: Some people aid us, basically coming in from one subred 673 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,479 Speaker 1: to another where they shouldn't be and like spamming us. 674 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: I help run the discord and I help run the subredit, 675 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: so I don't just run the subreddit, you know, not 676 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,919 Speaker 1: not to correct you, but just as specify you know. Yeah, 677 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 1: it's it's time consuming, but that's why it's a collective effort. 678 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: That's why it's not just me, it's it's a whole 679 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: team of moderators on the subreddit. We're looking to expand 680 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: even more moderators, five to ten more moderators. And it's 681 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: not just me, it's a whole host of people who 682 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: are really good at this, who invest a lot of 683 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: their time so that this community community can thrive, so 684 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: people can feel safe, so people can feel comfortable. Is 685 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: that unpaid? Yeah? But is it meaningful? Like, yeah, of 686 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: course it is. I think also part of this, one 687 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: of my fellow moderators pointed out, is people proving you 688 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: don't need the profit motive to do things that are 689 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: that are worthwhile, that are valuable to other people. Like 690 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: you said, we're providing a service to other people by 691 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,240 Speaker 1: giving them this platform to talk about their problems with work. 692 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: You know. Is there some superficial, surface level irony. Of 693 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: course there is, But we've got to work within the 694 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: context of capitalism. It's it's like Nom Chomsky said, right, 695 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: I'm not going to complain when my book is put 696 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: in Barnes and Noble. I gotta work with what I got. 697 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, obviously he said it much better than that. Yeah, 698 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: I think we've got to work with what we have, 699 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: and what we have is unfortunately an incredibly flawed and 700 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: broken system, or maybe it's working exactly how it's supposed to, 701 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: but either way, it's not good. So we but we've 702 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: got to work with it because we don't have the 703 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: alternative in place yet. But I'm hoping down the line 704 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: we will, and I'm hoping that the subreddit and the 705 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,479 Speaker 1: discord and anything else is a good platform for people 706 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: to organize uh and to subvert capitalism and to basically 707 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: like find a different way, find a better way out 708 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: of this life that demands us to subvert all of 709 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: our needs to work. Let me ask you another question, 710 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: and this is about sort of the difference between sort 711 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: of personal activism and personal behavioral changes versus policy changes. 712 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: So boycotting Kellogg is a personal choice, or not buying 713 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: anything on Black Friday as a personal choice, or simply 714 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: refusing to show up and doing whatever possible to not 715 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: work is like a personal choice. Then there's like policy choices. 716 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: There could be a change to rules around minimum wages 717 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: and so forth, And we see this dichotomy play out. 718 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: We see it in, for example, um the debate about 719 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: climate change, how much climate change people should make personal choices, 720 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: say not eating meat versus how much the pursuit should 721 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: be on the policy front, whether it's a hard cap 722 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: on carbon emissions or some sort of policies that reduce 723 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: funding for major emitters, stuff like that. And so I'm 724 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: curious like your view, like, how do you think about 725 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: the two and which do you think is more powerful? 726 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: Is it the organic? Like we're just gonna keep growing 727 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: the subreddit and growing the awareness about what you see 728 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: is the unfairness of capitalism or are there like policy 729 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: changes that you would hope to see eventually put into 730 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: place they would meaningfully change how the economy is structure. Yeah, okay, 731 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: great questions. So first off, I think when it comes 732 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: to any kind of major issue, collective collective action is 733 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: the thing we need to do. My individual protesting Kelloggs 734 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: yesterday by not buying apple jacks, I really wanted those 735 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: apple jacks. It's not gonna affect Kellogg's. No uh, employees 736 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: gonna get a better wage, No stockholder is gonna sweat, 737 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: no boss is going to you know, chatter their teeth like, 738 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: nobody's gonna care that. I didn't decide to do it. 739 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,959 Speaker 1: So that is really a personal choice, and I don't 740 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: think it has a big effect on on the collective economy. 741 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm talking about the entire United States, 742 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: and honestly, Kelloggs is a as a multinational corporation, so 743 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: I'm not even talking about the United States. So yeah, 744 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: I think collective action is where it's at, unionizing, striking, protesting, 745 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: cards on the table. I'm an anarchist. I don't really 746 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: think voting works. I only speak for myself. Not everyone 747 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: in the anti work movement is an anarchist. Not everyone 748 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: agrees with me on that. There's been plenty of debate 749 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: about how impactful voting is and how much we should 750 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: vote for policies or politicians. Is the minimum wage and 751 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: animating issue for you? I wouldn't say it's an animating issue, 752 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: but I I certainly, like I said earlier, would welcome 753 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: workers getting better wages. It's not a crucial focus point 754 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: for me, but absolutely I care about what workers are making. 755 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: But honestly, the minimum wage, being what often people are 756 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: fighting for is fifteen dollars is not even enough if 757 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: you followed inflation over the years, at least from what 758 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: I've heard. Again, non economists, not a statician, but from 759 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: what I've heard, it seems like it would be much 760 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: closer to twenty or twenty five an hour, which is 761 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: wild to think about, but if you follow in inflation 762 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: because wages have stagnated over the years, that's where it 763 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: would be. So yeah, I would I welcome better wages, 764 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: of course I would. I'm not against that and I 765 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't fight against it. But I also don't think it's 766 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: the anti works main drive. We're not just the reformist 767 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: liberal movement that is trying to vaguely make capitalism nicer, right. 768 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: I think I think it's great to make economic systems 769 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: work for the people who structurally uphold it, like workers do. 770 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: But I don't think that's the main point of our movement. 771 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, speaking just again, I gotta I 772 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: have to emphasize because I don't want people to think, oh, 773 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: well everyone's pie in the sky and they don't care 774 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: about politicians or whatever. Like No, that's not the point. 775 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: Like again, we have We're a big tent movement. We 776 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: have people who are democratic socialists who really like Bernie 777 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: or AOC. We have communists who think to some extent 778 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: that voting might be useful. We even have some anarchists 779 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 1: who think that some some policies are better. I even 780 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: just said the minimum wage would be at least be 781 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 1: some kind of improvement and could be a short term 782 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: gain for workers. Um But ultimately I think what we 783 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 1: need to do is undermine and subvert capitalism by creating 784 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: alternative economies, by creating all current alternative structures, by subverting 785 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: the current structures that are in place, through unionizing, education, organizing, etcetera. 786 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: And that's that's really where I am. I I do 787 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: think collective effort matters, but I just I think that 788 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: it comes in the form of direct action. I don't 789 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: think it comes in the form of policymaking or voting 790 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: for politicians. But again that's that's me. So speaking of 791 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: capitalism and alternative economies, I wanted to ask you about 792 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: another sub credit, which in some respects kind of mirrors 793 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: the the action or the development that we've seen in 794 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: the anti work subredit. But this is of course Wall 795 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: Street Bets, which has absolutely exploded over the past year 796 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 1: and a half. Lots of people stuck at home given 797 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: the COVID situation, and lots of people decided to take 798 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: up trading and you know, yolo their money on GameStop 799 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: options or whatever, and Joe and I have been kind 800 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: of curious about whether or not this is creating a 801 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: wealth effect, So people might be making more money from 802 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: trading crypto or meme stocks or whatever, and whether or 803 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: not that's a factor in people quitting as well. Is 804 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: that something that you've observed or do you think there's 805 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: much overlap between anti work and Wall Street Bets. There's 806 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: some minor overlap, but I don't want to overstate it. 807 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: Wall Street Bets is as a sub credit that is 808 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 1: trying to have its members get rich off of capitalism. 809 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: We are trying to fundamentally undermine and subvert capitalism. So yeah, 810 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: I think that there's some minor overlap. And it's not 811 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: like people from Wall Street Bets are not uh not welcome, 812 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: but I think we have very different goals in mind. Now, 813 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: some people who want to get rich off capitalism through 814 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: stocks and trade and stuff like that might be anti 815 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: work or might want to be lazy with their money, 816 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: but I don't really think that's the way to be 817 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: anti work. Anti work is a collective, solidarity based community 818 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: where you know, we share the wealth, we share with 819 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: each other. We you know, if I if I ever 820 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: got rich, and I hope I don't ever because I 821 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: don't really want that. But if I ever got rich rich, 822 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: I would like to get to the point where I 823 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about money. But I don't want 824 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: to be like rich, you know what I mean. If 825 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: I ever got to that point, like that money is 826 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: probably not going to me. It's probably going to other people, 827 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: or it's going to organization, or it's going to charity, 828 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: or it's going to somewhere besides me, because no, thank you. 829 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: But you know a lot of the people in Wall 830 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: Street Pats are there for themselves, you know. And I'm 831 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: not saying like, oh, I'm a perfect angel, or I've 832 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: never made a mistake, or I've never or I would 833 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: never I've never been selfish before, right, But I genuinely 834 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: think that a lot of that movement is to just 835 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: benefit individuals. It's not to it's not to create a 836 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: better world, it's not to undermine capitalism, and it's not 837 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: to propagate an anti work ethos. Well, you know, it's 838 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: funny when Tracy said, oh, I want to ask you 839 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: about another subredit, I actually thought she was going to 840 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: go to somewhere else that we've talked about and that 841 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: is like the Fire movement and the idea of like 842 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,839 Speaker 1: retiring early, and that's obviously very different too, because those 843 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: are people like I'm gonna try to make like two 844 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: million dollars by the time I made thirty and then 845 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: if I spend those those people I'm sorry to interrupt you. 846 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: Those people want to work themselves to death and then 847 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: get out of their jobs. And I just yeah, I 848 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: I just want to say, We've been dealing with the 849 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: Fire movement for years, uh, and they and people have 850 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: always been like, oh, this seems like the perfect place 851 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: for fire, and I'm like, no, it's it's really not, 852 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: because like we have very different goals. Yeah, that's that's 853 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: basically what I figured. But one thing though, I'm curious, 854 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: Like in the movement, I mean like they're all about 855 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: like sharing strategies so that like once they quit working, 856 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: they can live as long as possible with you know, 857 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: how to how to stretch their dollars as long as possible. 858 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: Is there a sort of like self help or like 859 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: collective tips in your world that's sort of like how 860 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,720 Speaker 1: do basically how to outwork that you got like sharing 861 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: strategies of work avoidance? Yeah, I used to do that. Uh, 862 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: and then I'm sure it happens on anti work every day, 863 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: people sharing strategies and tips. I will also say that 864 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: if people want to book that I absolutely officially endorsed 865 00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: or whatever not as not speaking for the sub right, 866 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: just from myself. But it's been prominently featured before and 867 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: people have loved it. But it's called Laziness Does Not Exist. 868 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: It's a great book. I recommend you have the author 869 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 1: on if you ever want. But they are an awesome, 870 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: awesome writer. They have a lot of tips about how 871 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 1: to take care of your mental health, about how to 872 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: respect yourself and and and basically like make sure that 873 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: you're not working as much. Talks about the myth of laziness. 874 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: I really recommend that book I have. I've done an 875 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: audio reading of the article version on medium dot com 876 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: on my YouTube channel. It's a great book, it's a 877 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: great article. It's called Laziness Does Not Exist. I think 878 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: that's a great place to go for sharing tips. But 879 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: it just casually happens every day, you know. I I 880 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: don't really keep track of it because most of the 881 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: things I do is moderating, is keeping track of the 882 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: people who are not doing that who are being jerks, 883 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: who are being trolls. So I can't, like, on hand, 884 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: off hand, tell you that, but I can tell you 885 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: more more so on the discord that plenty of people 886 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: like are sharing resources with each other all the time. 887 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: We have a support channel. We have heavier support channel 888 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: for like you know, bigger topics and stuff, personal stuff. 889 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 1: We have an ideology channel. We have a lot of 890 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: channels on that discord that are about people supporting each other. 891 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, it absolutely happens every single day. Maybe, UM, 892 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: to sum up a lot of the issues that were 893 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: brought up in this conversation, could you give us your 894 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,919 Speaker 1: impression of what you think workers and employers actually owe 895 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: each other in terms of the worker employee relationship. Oh, 896 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: I'm tempted to go all anarchists or anarchost cynicalists here 897 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: and say the workers, oh, the boss is nothing. You know, 898 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: I'm very moved by Buddhist philosophy these days, and I 899 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: think that at the end of the day, we're all 900 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,280 Speaker 1: human beings, you know, even even even even the boss, 901 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: even the boss, even the boss. I'm saying it's more 902 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: from like an anarchist perspective, because this is hard for 903 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: some anarchists to hear, but even even bosses, at the 904 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: end of the day, are people, and they have incentives 905 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,879 Speaker 1: from capitalism that I think are very distorted and very 906 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: misaligned with being good and compassionate towards other people. And 907 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 1: I think we have to be respectful and mindful of that. 908 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that we have to respect it, or 909 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: that we have to go along with it, or that 910 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: we can't subvert it, but I think it helps to 911 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: understand it. You know, I've been friends with a manager before. 912 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: You know, one of my best friends a few years 913 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: ago Wasn't was my manager, and I had a very 914 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: kind of strained friendship in some ways ideologically because I 915 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 1: didn't agree with she was. She was my coworker previously, 916 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: so she had gotten promoted. I had kind of like 917 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: an inside look at like the kind of distorted conflicts 918 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,919 Speaker 1: that she had about like, oh, you know, I don't 919 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: want to say this to you, but I have to 920 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: because it's coming from the higher up. And you know, 921 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: if I could get in trouble, or I could lose 922 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: my job, or you know, you could get in trouble, 923 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: and I don't want that to happen. On some level, 924 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: I get it, you know. But on the other hand, 925 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: it's a messed up system, and I don't although no 926 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,319 Speaker 1: one part is and truly and crucially responsible for the 927 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 1: harm that comes out of it, workers have to rebel 928 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: against it regardless. And unfortunately that is going to disrupt 929 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: people's wages, that is going to disrupt boss operations, that 930 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: is going to disrupt corporations. But I think that has 931 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 1: that's the way it has to be. Um. I think 932 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: it is an oppositional relationship, and I think that employers 933 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: own employees a lot more than the other way around. 934 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: I think in the economy we have, it's often seen 935 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: as the other way around, that employees should fel thankful 936 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: to employers, but really employees are the ones who are 937 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: holding up the system, and employers are the ones who 938 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,879 Speaker 1: should feel grateful that workers are still going to work, 939 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: especially during a pandemic, especially during uh stagnating wages, especially 940 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: during a very hamstrong economy that just went through a 941 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,240 Speaker 1: recession ten years ago and probably still hasn't fully recovered. 942 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I really want to emphasize here that, Yeah, 943 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: like I I think at the end of the day, 944 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: everyone's a human being and they were deserved respect but 945 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,240 Speaker 1: at the also at the end of the day, capitalism 946 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: is a very disrespectful system, does not treat people with compassion, uh, 947 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,279 Speaker 1: and we need to rebel against it. So there needs 948 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: to be some balancing of like, my boss is human being, 949 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: but also this system is inhumane and I need to 950 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: figure away in my personal life to balance that. And 951 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: that's really important. I mean, I think that's a that 952 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: itself is a very good encapsulation of what you've been saying. 953 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: But you know, look, if you if you talk to 954 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 1: managers and bosses or business owners, and we've certainly talked 955 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: to a lot on the on the podcast, you know 956 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: they're talking about like, oh, we're raising wages and in 957 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: many cases we're lowering hours, and we're giving signing bonuses, 958 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: or we're offering free training, free education, free college. We 959 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,799 Speaker 1: hear that from big companies in particular, but not just 960 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: big companies, all kinds of things, and you know, trying 961 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: to come up with ways to make the work site 962 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: a more appealing place for workers because they feel this frustration. 963 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,279 Speaker 1: What don't they get What is it that you know? 964 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: And I've seen some of this on on the subredit, 965 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: which is that you know something is like, oh, there's 966 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 1: an offer of a signing bone this, but then you 967 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: know it's still like the devils in the details, or 968 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,840 Speaker 1: maybe it's hard to get or it screws over existing 969 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,799 Speaker 1: workers who don't get it. What do you think companies 970 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,879 Speaker 1: are still missing right now in terms of what it 971 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: is that makes it hard for them to hire and 972 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,439 Speaker 1: why people are sort of like frustrated and don't find 973 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,759 Speaker 1: many of these offers appealing. So, yeah, this kind of 974 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about earlier. I 975 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: think kind of what you were saying there speaks to 976 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: what they're missing. Capitalism is the systemic inequality between capitalists 977 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: and and employees, I mean, the bosses and workers. I 978 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: think the hint is in the name right capitalism. You know, 979 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 1: it's a system that centrally values employers over employees all 980 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: the time. Systematically, that's the whole point of capitalism, and 981 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: they just don't get that. Small little fixes like signing bonuses, 982 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 1: which as you point out, sometimes screwed over other workers, 983 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,279 Speaker 1: you know, are just not enough. It's not enough to 984 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: undo all of the systemic inequality that is built up 985 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: over the past hundred year. That's why we've seen all 986 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,960 Speaker 1: the union organizing in the thirties and forties. That's why 987 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: we saw Occupy Wall Street. That's why we're seeing in 988 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: the growth of the anti work movement. That's why you know, 989 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: so many, so many strikes have been happening. That's why 990 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,000 Speaker 1: all this is happening because capitalism is systemically opposed to 991 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: workers getting their fair share, to getting their fair to 992 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: when it comes to work, you know, And ultimately I 993 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,800 Speaker 1: do want to abolish work, but I want work to 994 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: be replaced by effort that's actually rewarded cooperatively collectively. Uh. 995 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: You know, again, I'm an anarchist, so I'm speaking for 996 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: myself here, but you know, without bosses, without corporations, without 997 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,800 Speaker 1: even the government, and so you know, worker cooperatives and 998 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,240 Speaker 1: worker collectives are the mainstay of that kind of economy. 999 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: And people working for themselves too is something I'm not 1000 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: opposed to. I think bosses just missed the fact. And 1001 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: even if you're not an anarchist, I think that what 1002 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: the bosses are missing there is if this is not 1003 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: a problem that could be taped up. You can't put 1004 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: bandages on on a gaping hole. You've got to like 1005 00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: see like what is causing that? Again? Going back to Buddhism, 1006 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,360 Speaker 1: like you've out of look at the causes and originations 1007 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: of like what's going on here? Like you can't just 1008 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: like mindlessly apply band aid after band aid, Like that's 1009 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,480 Speaker 1: just not going to work. Uh, the signing bonuses are 1010 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 1: just not enough. What you really need to do is 1011 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,399 Speaker 1: what I think ideally should happen. Of course, I don't 1012 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: think any boss will ever do this, because capitalism doesn't 1013 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,920 Speaker 1: give them incentives. But step away is let the workers 1014 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: do it, because the workers are the ones who have 1015 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,920 Speaker 1: the decentralized knowledge. Funnily enough, Friedrich Kayak, who is a 1016 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 1: fairly conservative economist on some levels, has a great theory 1017 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: about like why workers are the best suited to do that, 1018 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,200 Speaker 1: Like they have the best decentralized knowledge to make decisions 1019 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: on the floor. You know, I spent I spent almost 1020 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,439 Speaker 1: ten years in retail, and almost always the workers knew 1021 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,200 Speaker 1: what was going on more than the bosses did. There 1022 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: were some points when that wasn't true, but usually that 1023 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,279 Speaker 1: was just stuff that was coming from up top, or hey, 1024 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: the boss of my boss is going to be here today, 1025 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: or some some background stuff that doesn't really matter to 1026 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: the customer or doesn't really matter to the community member 1027 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,719 Speaker 1: or the worker. I really think that they miss out 1028 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,879 Speaker 1: that the systemic issue, and you're not going to solve 1029 00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,600 Speaker 1: it with buying bonuses. So I just want to ask 1030 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: you one more question. And I feel like i'd kind 1031 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,439 Speaker 1: of be remiss not to ask it. But you said 1032 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: you worked, or you said you work part time jobs. 1033 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: You have to support yourself in some way. And I'm 1034 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,960 Speaker 1: sure there's someone who's listening to this and they're thinking 1035 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 1: to themselves, how does she support herself. Does she's some 1036 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: kind of trust fund person or something, And how do 1037 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: you fit working and the need to support yourself to 1038 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 1: need to gain income with your anti work ideology. Funnily enough, 1039 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: I have to support myself under capitalism, So I do 1040 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 1: part time work. I work with dogs. Um So, first off, 1041 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: it's a lot better than most of my previous jobs. 1042 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm a dog walker by trade, question mark, if that's 1043 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 1: the right expression there. I spent a lot of time 1044 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 1: on my feet, a lot of time walking, but it's 1045 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: one of the best jobs I've ever had. It's pretty easy. 1046 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: I get to don't tell my bosses, but I get 1047 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: to listen to a lot of podcasts, you know, I 1048 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: I love dogs, love taking care of them. So this 1049 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,640 Speaker 1: job is a bit of a passion job for me. Now, 1050 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,359 Speaker 1: I still feel burnt out. Sometimes there are times where 1051 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:07,839 Speaker 1: the dogs want to play with each other and I'm 1052 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, it can't be bothered. This 1053 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,279 Speaker 1: is just so much effort just to get you guys outside, 1054 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: let alone, like stop you from playing once you're on 1055 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: a walk. But um, I love what I do a 1056 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 1: lot more than what I did previously. That doesn't mean 1057 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 1: I don't have bad days. That doesn't mean that I 1058 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,040 Speaker 1: love my boss or or the owner or anything like that, 1059 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,759 Speaker 1: but like it's much better than what I used to 1060 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: have now. Of course, does that make me some hypocrite 1061 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,000 Speaker 1: on some way? Sure, whatever, I don't think hypocrisy if 1062 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,279 Speaker 1: that is that interesting of an ideological conundrum. We're all 1063 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,720 Speaker 1: hypocrites under capitalism, right, we all have to buy products 1064 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,920 Speaker 1: we don't fully support. We all have to give our 1065 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,399 Speaker 1: tax money to a government that is still waging war 1066 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:45,479 Speaker 1: all across the world. I mean, that's what Henry David 1067 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 1: Throau went to jail for, right, So yeah, I I 1068 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 1: we're all hypocrites on some level. I don't really think 1069 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 1: that's an interesting observation about me, you know. And yeah, 1070 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm also a student, you know, a full time student, 1071 00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: um in Boston. I'm I'm studying so that I could 1072 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,720 Speaker 1: become a professor. That's a lot of effort too, But again, 1073 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, third time, not against effort and not against jobs. 1074 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: So I don't it's not really for me anyway. It's 1075 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,719 Speaker 1: not hypocrisy on a big level. But yeah, sure, it's 1076 00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: definitely hypocrisy on some level. I'm not working for myself 1077 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: for the most part, I do I I do have. 1078 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 1: I am a pet sitter as well, so I also 1079 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 1: do some work for myself that is not done through 1080 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,480 Speaker 1: a company or a boss, I should say, but it 1081 00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,480 Speaker 1: is still done through a company, is still done through 1082 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: a corporation based out like Seattle or whatever. You know. 1083 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:31,879 Speaker 1: I have to meet too with what I got. Yeah, 1084 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,080 Speaker 1: I support myself by basically two part time jobs and 1085 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,280 Speaker 1: then sometimes school gives me some kickbacks if my loans 1086 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: are overpaid or something, and that's about it. Then I 1087 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: also I also live with my partner, and so she 1088 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 1: and I will sometimes, um you know what will we 1089 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 1: usually split like food and rent and stuff like that, utilities, 1090 00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: uh and bills and stuff so that makes it a 1091 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,480 Speaker 1: lot easier to because living in Boston is not easy. 1092 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,719 Speaker 1: Well that was great during Thank you so much for 1093 00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: coming out. Yeah, absolutely, I love doing these. Thanks so much, 1094 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: Orn Tracy. I thought that was really interesting. I mean 1095 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,320 Speaker 1: I think, like, you know, obviously, there's like a lot there. 1096 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,400 Speaker 1: There's sort of there's the anarchist philosophy, there's the feelings 1097 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: of frustration that people are just realizing, even if they're 1098 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 1: not anarchists, with the way work works right now. And 1099 00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:39,320 Speaker 1: I think like this sort of idea of like digital 1100 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:44,200 Speaker 1: organizing and sort of like luciffiliated online communities that push 1101 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 1: for some goal or that push for some impulse is 1102 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: just getting out more and more important, and we're going 1103 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,480 Speaker 1: to be more and more powerful. Yeah, I think that's right. 1104 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,120 Speaker 1: And also I thought what Dorene was saying about treating 1105 00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 1: each other like humans seems to be an overriding theme 1106 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 1: and a lot of these discussions and a lot of 1107 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: the posts um on the actual sub credit. So again 1108 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,239 Speaker 1: to the question that I asked, like, often people don't 1109 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,640 Speaker 1: seem to be complaining that much about specific work hours 1110 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 1: or specific wages, specific grievances, but it's usually you know, 1111 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,720 Speaker 1: some sort of argument with their boss where the boss 1112 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,000 Speaker 1: just assumes that these people are you know, able to 1113 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,360 Speaker 1: work at at their back and call. Basically that kind 1114 00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:35,320 Speaker 1: of is the tipping point for someone quitting. And I wonder, 1115 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,800 Speaker 1: I sometimes wonder how much of the tension between workers 1116 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: and employers could be alleviated if people like were a 1117 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: just nicer and be if they were able to set 1118 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,840 Speaker 1: expectations and actually stick to them. Yeah, I mean that 1119 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 1: is that's a really good point, and that's really good question. 1120 00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,359 Speaker 1: And this idea that like bosses don't have a sort 1121 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,319 Speaker 1: of restraint about these assumptions. And I think, you know, 1122 00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 1: a lot of like what gets called a labor shortage 1123 00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,240 Speaker 1: really is a labor shortage at the standards that people 1124 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,279 Speaker 1: were expecting two years ago. And the problem with that is, 1125 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: like why is that the standard? Like that there was 1126 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,520 Speaker 1: a set of economic conditions that existed in twenty nine, 1127 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,520 Speaker 1: but that was a set of conditions that it was 1128 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: different than two thousand nine and nine. And there's this 1129 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,760 Speaker 1: sort of like at any given moment, okay, certain economic 1130 00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 1: conditions could support X or y, but the idea that 1131 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,840 Speaker 1: things aren't normal or that there is a shortage just 1132 00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: because oh, companies can't hire the way they did at 1133 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: a certain time is like this, like very weird like 1134 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:52,120 Speaker 1: framing that I think is unjustified. Absolutely. Um. Now, speaking 1135 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,440 Speaker 1: of anti work, it is eleven p m in Hong Kong. 1136 00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 1: So shall we leave it there? Yeah, let's leave it there. 1137 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,960 Speaker 1: All right, let's create some boundaries. Okay, this has been 1138 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,200 Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 1139 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and 1140 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wi isn't Thal You can follow me on 1141 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart and check out dury And She 1142 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 1: is a moderator or one of the moderators of the 1143 00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: anti work subreddit go check it out extremely interesting and 1144 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:24,480 Speaker 1: the founder of the abolished work dot com website. Follow 1145 00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: our producer Laura Carlson. She's at Laura M. Carlson. Follow 1146 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,960 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesco Levi at Francesca Today, 1147 00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts on Twitter unto 1148 00:58:35,160 --> 00:59:03,280 Speaker 1: the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening. Year