WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: TechStuff Remembers Aaron Swartz 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.240 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:14.320 How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.239 I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.799 I Heart Radio and I love all things tech. Today, 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.520 it is time for another tech Stuff classic episode that 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.160 published back in February two thirteen. It is styled tech 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:34.880 Stuff Remembers Aaron Swartz. Aaron Swartz, very important person, tragically 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.599 short life, and Lauren Vogelbaum and I sit down and 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.000 talk about who he is and why he was important. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.520 So I hope you enjoy this episode. Well, today we 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.600 we have a topic that's both happy and sad. It's 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.479 sad and that the world lost an activist and and 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:58.440 legitimately a genius in January fellow by the name of 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.680 Aaron Schwartz. And you may have heard this name, and 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.959 you you may even be fairly aware of who he 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:06.720 was and what he did. He's been in the news 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:08.840 a whole bunch, and you've probably been hearing about him 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.200 for years because he's done some really breakthrough work in technology. 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.880 Yeah yeah, and both from a actual technological standpoint and 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:21.039 from a political standpoint, as it turns out, So we 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:25.200 wanted to really talk about who he was, what sort 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.200 of impact he's had on technology, both from a policy 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:33.080 side and from actual zeros in ones right physical, yeah, 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.240 and to kind of talk about why his his life 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.120 and death matter in the world of tech. And to 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:41.840 do this, we we wanted to kind of take an 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.440 overview of his life. So first, before I really dive in, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.520 I have to give major props to The Verge, which 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:51.440 is if you guys have never gone to The Verge, 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.680 it's a fantastic It's one of my favorite sites out 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:56.840 there right now. It's really really well done. And a 0:01:56.880 --> 0:02:00.840 fellow by the name of Tim Carmody wrote an exhaustive 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:06.800 article about Swartz's life and was very thorough and very respectful, 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.880 and see it was a really gorgeous piece of journalism, honestly, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:11.480 and it was it was a very personal piece of 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.960 journalism that it bled a few lines into editorial, but 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.200 it was and gave you a gave you insight to 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.160 what it's like being a journalist to have to cover 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.639 a story that has personal implications. Because he had had 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.480 met Sworts at least once, and so you know, it's 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.640 a it's a kind of an inside look to what 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.040 it's like being a journalist and covering a story like this. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.000 And also he's very good at breaking down the myths 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.000 because they you know, Aaron Swarts was sort of a 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:45.280 legendary mythical figure in many ways, the kind of person 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.480 who's whose contributions were huge, and they got bigger depending 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.000 upon who was telling the story and how how many 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.000 times they told it. Sure the same way to say 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.480 Steve Jobs a lot of That's a good, good example. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.840 Although we should also add Swarts was was magically very 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.560 young when he when he committed suicide, only twenty six 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:09.119 years old. Yeah. So, so going back to his childhood, 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.240 he was born in Chicago. In nineteen six his father, 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.720 Robert Schwartz, founded a software company which was called Mark Williams, 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:23.200 which actually named after Aaron's grandfather and uh and Mark Williams. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.160 The company was all about creating a clone of the 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:32.519 Unix operating system and also ce compilers, C language compilers 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.880 and debuggers for IBM PCs. And that's that's a term 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.760 that brings me back because I remember when when computers 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:45.760 were either called Apple or IBM compatible or you know, 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.240 eventually kind of specificity doesn't really exist anymore. Yeah, no, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.120 IBM compatible became a term like I was referring to 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:56.440 PCs a IBM compatibles long after that was appropriate because 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.240 sometimes things stick with you. But anyway, Robert Swartz would 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.840 eventually become an intellectual property consultant for M I T S. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:08.200 Media lab and intellectual property was something that Aaron became 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:12.720 very interested in and very passionate about. And the idea 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.960 of is information property. Does it belong to one person 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.640 or one entity in the case of say a corporation 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.320 or organization, or does it belong to the world. Should 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.560 it belong to the world? And this is a philosophical 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.479 debate that a lot of people have had, and I 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:34.920 think most people fall somewhere in the spectrum of gray. Sure, well, 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.800 you know it's we We all want to especially those 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.520 of us who work in the media, want to be 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.240 paid for our ideas because that's the only thing that 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.599 we produce. But at the same time, yeah, you know, 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.479 if someone wants to learn something, I'm certainly not going 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.920 to say, like, no, no, give me money first. If 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:52.760 you know, if for example, if they need that money 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.039 to eat, I would gather them know things and eat. Yes, yes, 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.359 And so Aaron kind of we'll get into it. But 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:04.080 Aaron kind of developed an idealistic philosophy that was very 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.159 much in the realm of information wants to be free, 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.880 that that sort of idea that that that data needs 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.800 to be out there for people to make use of 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.640 it and to make lives better. He called it a 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.640 moral imperative. Yeah and um yes, so that that kind 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.640 of gives you a quick philosophical overview, But we don't 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:29.080 want to jump ahead too far. Tim's work in the Verge. 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.920 There was one little piece of information that I thought 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:36.039 was adorable, which is that when Aaron was eight years old. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.840 Keep in mind out this is early days, okay, so 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.560 s plus eight that means in in, in and and wait. 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:52.960 I got nineteen nineteen ninety four. Liberal arts education has 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.040 paid off people. When the World Wide Web was really 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.640 just two years old. Um, he was actually going on usenet, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.839 which is not the same thing as Worldwide Web, so 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.279 don't write me. But he was going on usenet, which 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:10.560 was a newsgroup database essentially kind of like a network 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.440 database where you could go and have discussions about different topics. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:19.400 And apparently when exactly when he was eight, he went 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.640 on to ustet and his first post was to a 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.520 newsgroup dedicated to Beakman's World, which is kind of awesome. 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.400 That's wonderful. Yeah. Uh. He was also a big fan 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.040 of the Star Wars movies, which I think is phenomenal 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.200 because he was born three years after the last one 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.800 came out, Return of the Jedi, as we have discussed before, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.800 year old. Sorry, yeah, well I saw Return of the 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.159 Jedi in the theater when it was released. And man, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.920 I sure hope that one day Lucas comes out with 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.200 movies that really explain how Anakin became Darth Vader. Yeah, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.400 wouldn't that be That would be so great, that would 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.200 be fantastic. I love a follow up. I really wish 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.120 that those movies existed, just like I hope one day 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.480 they make a sequel to Highlander, the Matrix or The Matrix. 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:04.640 These are yeah, so many movies that I wish there 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.920 were sequels to that. I'm not actively denying exist. Um. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.120 It's exhausting being Miguel, really, but anyway, he was also 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.600 fans of other things like I went visited his blog 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:22.480 uh in preparation for this podcast, and and he had 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:28.559 a way of taking pop culture and applying various thought 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:34.160 experiments to it that was engaging and enlightening and funny. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.400 He has a great one in the final one, sadly 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.520 about the Dark Night. Uh. The most recent, the last 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.640 and the Christopher Nolan series actually was the second one. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.400 Wasn't yeah because it was all about the Joker. It 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.480 was because he was he was going back to looking 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.119 at that one. It was written. It was written in November. Um. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.119 The blog post was uh, and it was about how 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.400 the Joker applies game theory throughout the movie. And he 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.920 breaks down almost scene by scene every time the Joker 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:11.480 appears and and explains which game in game theory applies 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.200 to that scene. And there's like a dozen different games 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.640 that he specifically references, and he makes a case for 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.640 every single one. And I looked at that and I thought, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.160 you know, I I kind of had the same idea 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.280 once or twice, because I I know about game theory 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.920 fleetingly and things like Prisoner's dilemma, the trolley problem, things 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.760 like that. Um, but he broke it down for every 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.400 single scene. I said, I never saw all of those connections. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.800 So he really had that ability to to to kind 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.600 of look at the world around him and art and 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.760 and and entertainment. And even if you even if you 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:46.960 don't want to call it art, if you just want 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.760 to call it entertainment, He's able to see the underlying 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:55.199 thoughts that kind of maybe not consciously but guided that work. 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.440 And uh, even if even if it was completely unintentional, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.960 he could draw parallels, which was really kind of an 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:06.120 awesome thing. I really admire that quality in people. Certainly 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.800 I do not possess it, not to that extent anyway. So, uh, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.520 skipping ahead of all that, I mean, that's so bottom 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:18.520 line geeky guy. Okay, he's a geek, and I say 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.640 that with full love. I say that as a man 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:22.880 who has a Lord of the Rings tattoo on his 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:27.360 left arm. Okay, I love the geek. I learned things 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.000 about you every day. John didn't know I had a 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.439 tattoo with a Lord of the Things. I don't think 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.800 I did right here. Um, I can't show you up 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:37.240 wearing a long sleep today. Um. But anyway, skipping ahead 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.439 a little bit too. When he was the ripe old 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:45.079 age of thirteen years old, circle two thousand or so thirteen, 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.640 he begins to work on the Info Network, which is 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.080 his idea for the Info Network was sort of like 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:59.120 what Wikipedia became. It's the idea of this an online encyclopedia, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.880 storage of knowledge that anyone can can add to add 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.160 to an edit, so essentially the same idea as Wikipedia. 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.320 It's this, you know, he saw that the Internet was 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.560 that had the potential to be like the guide in 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.200 the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. If you guys 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.680 have not read the books, then that's okay. You go 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.160 ahead and do that. Will wait, because they're worth it. 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:27.440 Don't don't watch the movie, but you can watch the 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.400 BBC television series or listen to the radio show. You 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.040 can watch the movie. Alan Rickman was excellent in that film. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.400 That movie was so bad. Martin Freeman was excellent in 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.640 that film where Don't Make Me. Performances were fine, the 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.640 script was terrible. I am from the Internet. I will 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.160 fight you about Martin Freeman. No, no, no no, no, You're 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.000 not gonna get any argument on me. I mean, Freeman 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:47.920 was the best thing about the map I took during 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.480 the hobbit um. So anyway, Uh, the Info Networks he's 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.120 working on this this project, and the work gets him 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.680 some attention. He actually becomes a finalist in the second 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.000 Our Digita Prize and as a finalist. Um, you know, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.040 keeping mind, he's thirteen years old. He's he's competing, not 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.240 necessarily competing, but he's he's in the same against in 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.640 the Brackett bracket with people who are big names today 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.439 in technology and who were adults. Many of these people 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.040 knew his work. Yeah, they knew him. They knew him 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.680 on online as as it staid at the time, Aaron 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.199 sw but they did not know that Aaron sw was. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:33.320 They're like, whoa who am I being punked? Yeah? Is 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.040 that that? That's a really dated reference. That's point in it. Yeah, 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.720 okay around two thousand they might have been saying it. Maybe, okay, 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.400 so ask your parents. So he he ended up winning 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:47.200 as a finalist, a thousand dollars and access to a 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.520 web server for life and a two day trip to 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.600 m I t to meet a couple of a couple 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.679 of geeks, a couple of dudes who a little, a 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.160 little influential in technology. One of those two was Tim 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.080 berners Lee, who most of us know as the guy 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.920 who invented the World Wide Web back when he was 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:09.040 working with a CERN. Kind of kind of a big deal. Yeah, 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.199 so he's the one who kind of developed the framework 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.720 that would become the World Wide Web, and yeah, big name. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.160 The other fellow that he got to meet on this 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.640 two day trip was Hal Abelson, who was professor of 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.720 Electrical engineering and Computer Science at M I T. He's 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.000 also a fellow of the I E E E or 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.679 as longtime listeners of tech stuff, know how I pronounced 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:37.080 it the because it's cajun um not cajun And then 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.560 he was also a hal Abelson's also a founding director 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.720 of Creative Commons and the Free Software Foundation and Creative 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.360 Commons will come in to play later in this discussion 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.760 as well. Abelson himself, Um, so big deal. You know, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.559 he got to meet some people who were definitely influential 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.640 in the techno technology space as well as this idea 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:03.960 that information is powerful and it's important and it's necessary 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.160 and people should have access to it. Um these are 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.880 these are big ideas for a thirteen year old, and 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:15.640 he had embraced them already. Uh. A little bit later, 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:22.320 he became interested in something called r S s rs S, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.959 of course being m a rich site summary. I believe 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:29.679 originally it stood for resource description framework Site summary. Wow, 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.400 look at you, Yes, that's exactly right. It's a it's 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.720 sometimes also called really simple syndication. And you got it. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.720 You nailed it. And yes, I can read really good. 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.720 I wrote it down. You do read really good. You 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:44.960 don't speak so well, but to read really good. That's 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:49.200 why I'm a podcasters fair. And it's it's what it's 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:54.000 what the Internet uses to syndicate itself. Yeah. Yeah, So 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.280 so I'll give you, guys a for those of you 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.600 who are not aware of what RSS is or what 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.320 it does. Uh, let's go back to the old days 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.120 of the web now, pre RSS or pre any other 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.240 syndication format, because RSS is not the only one, it's 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.160 just it's sort of the one that came out on top. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.280 But pre RSS and other syndication formats, the way you 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.079 would get information on the net is you would go 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.040 visit a website. Yeah, you would. You would type in 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.920 the URL and you would click go, and you would 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.040 visit the website right, and you would look and you 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440 would actually scan the website to see if anything you 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.520 had popped up. This applied for everything from website that 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.119 was about specific company you were interested in or a community. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.000 Blogs were kind of not a thing yet, but but 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.560 web web comics maybe, or a news site, so you 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.520 would you might think, oh, you know, I hadn't checked 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:45.800 the news in a while, let me go, And then 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:47.200 you would go and you would actually have to start 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.160 kind of scanning through stuff and look, all right, well, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.920 what's what's new? What have I not read? I know, 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.280 I think I read that one. So it was it 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:57.440 was very time consuming. The idea behind the syndication was 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.800 that instead of you going to the site, the sites 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.440 would send little bits of information to some sort of 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.640 portal page, a reader aggregator like Google Reader is a 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.200 very popular one. You might log into this reader program 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.040 or reader site really is what it was, uh, and 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.360 then all that information would get fed to you whenever 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.520 a new piece of information came in and you could 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.560 just look at a glance and see, oh, this one 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.680 website I'm interested in published a new article and you 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.240 can read the headline and think, oh, is that something 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.800 I want to look into more, And depending upon the 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.720 way they syndicated their feed, you might even be able 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.480 to read the entire article within your reader without having 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.960 to ever visit the site. Uh. Not a lot of 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.320 websites like that, because it meant that you could read 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.000 their content without visiting the site, which often meant that 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:44.960 they were not looking at their as Yeah, they were 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.280 getting ad impressions. So a lot of sites instead would 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.000 allow the first paragraph and a half and then a 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:52.760 click through. Yeah, and then you would have to click through. 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.080 But the the idea was all about making sure that 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.200 that you would be getting the ist information as you 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.680 were as it was being generated, so that you didn't 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.680 have to keep checking. Yeah. And around around two thousand one, 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.320 a version of RSS called RSS one point now was 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:15.000 being developed. Yeah. Yeah. The RSS originally was kind of 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.880 being created by by essentially Netscape, So the Netscape group 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.040 was working on RSS, and they came out with things 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.800 like r s S zero point nine which used r 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.600 DF elements, which is that resource description framework that you 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.760 were mentioning, Lauren. Um that, by the way, it essentially 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.200 is all about how links linked to each other and 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:39.640 the information between the links. It's a meta data issue. Um. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.880 It's kind of complicated. So and ultimately it doesn't matter 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.040 because they removed the r DF elements when they released 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.640 RSS zero point nine one. Once they removed the r 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.000 DF elements, they said, oops, we yes, our acronym no 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.760 longer means r D F r D F. Uh you know, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.080 site syndication. We got to call it something else, and uh, 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.959 that's when we became rich site syndication. Uh, and then 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.400 of course eventually became really simple syndication. Um, a rich 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.520 site summary, I should say, not syndication. Sorry, that's my 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:16.720 brain is totally syndicated. So anyway, Netscape releases point nine 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.000 and point nine one. Uh, it becomes rich site Summary 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:25.840 and then Netscape ends its development with the standard. Okay, 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:27.680 So the thing was there are a lot of people 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.520 were saying this was kind of a guard Yeah, guys, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.399 why why did we just put that down? Yeah, we 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.600 kind of want that. So two different uh entities, I guess, 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.919 one person and one group began to work on developing 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:46.879 RSS further. On one end you had the the r 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.000 S S Dev Working Group, and on the other end 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:51.920 you had a fellow by the name of Dave Winer 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:57.719 and uh the they were independently working on creating and 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.600 furthering the standard of r s S. UH. Weiner attempted 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:07.400 to trademark RSS, but due to a clerical technicality, that 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.160 trademark did not go through. The RSS dev Working Group 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:15.639 ended up publishing RSS one point oh, and that was 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.240 part of that working group. There were there were originally 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.240 I think about twelve or fourteen people on it. Yeah, 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.680 it was basically the Hobbit Party. Yeah. One of one 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:29.280 of those people was fourteen year old Aaron Swartz. Yeah, 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 so Aeron swarts En, he's working with people like people 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.120 from the O'Reilly media group who were working on this 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.879 set of standards at fourteen years old, he was one 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.520 of the people helping define the standards of RSS one 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:49.040 point oh. Specifically, he was looking at creating some semantic 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:54.359 elements in RSS specification, uh, semantic being that it would 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:59.960 have a more almost like a natural language recognition ability 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.800 to it. It's it's really all about meta data, the 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.560 data about data, and how that helps aggregate information in 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.359 a way that's useful to human beings, so that you know, 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.760 because computers don't understand the actual information that is that 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.000 they handle, right, so you have to create information about 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.840 that information so computers can start to make associations and 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.520 start filing. Yeah, for humans, it's natural. For computers, it 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.199 takes a lot of work. So that's kind of what 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.800 he was building out, was this whole um semantic element 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.560 into it that was kind of what he was specifically 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.920 interested in. Meanwhile, just to kind of wrap up the 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:42.320 RSS stuff, um Winer would go on to develop RSS 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.480 two point oh, which would take the place of RSS 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:47.639 one point oh, even though it was not based on 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.359 one point oh at all, because he was developing his 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.359 simultaneous Yeah, the development forked and on one branch you 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:55.879 had one point oh and the other branch you had 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.880 two point and two point oh ended up eventually taking over. Yeah, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.440 and so one point I wasn't really it's still really 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:03.560 impressive that they were creating it, and a lot of 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.840 the work that that sports especialated with metadet data he 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.800 ended up taking other places. Yes, Yeah, but it's kind 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.120 of important to bring that into perspective because I've seen 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.639 a lot of reports that just says he invented RSS, 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.000 which one is not accurate and too is certainly not accurate. 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.840 Uh once you go forward a couple of years when 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.560 RSS two point out takes over. But but his contributions 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.880 were nonetheless important, and as you've just pointed out, they 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.679 were applicable to other elements of technology, not just the 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.520 RSS project. So yeah, that was that was his involvement 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:43.719 in that at age fourteen. I will not tell you 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.200 what I was up to when I was fourteen years old, 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:51.280 because none of it is even remotely as impressive as 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.760 that one accomplishment. I'm pretty sure I was like watching 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:58.080 Mystery Science Theater three thousand and playing Mario Kart at fourteen, 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.760 I was probably wishing there was something called Mystery Science 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:04.360 Theater three thousand. It happens to all of us because 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:08.400 I'm old. As Lauren has pointed out from the Star 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:14.160 Wars discussion, I wonder episode one per episode. Um, so 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.679 this is about the same time that that Aaron Sports 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:18.960 made a made a big decision in his life. Yeah, 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.440 he decided to drop out of high school that year. Yeah, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.320 that's um that's a bold decision for someone who is 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:30.639 uh already showing so much promise. Uh, It's not not 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:36.600 an unusual and that I've seen a lot of prodigies. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.159 I mean, Steve Stephen Hawking I think did terribly in 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.439 primary school. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both dropped out, 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.720 but they dropped out of college. They completed high school, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:47.680 but they dropped out of college. Well, you know, it's 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.679 I think that he sounds like Aaron had a lot 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.199 of support from his family and that he was, you know, 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.399 being encouraged to take on these crazy projects. Yeah. And 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.560 I have a feeling he was also one of those 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.840 people who the curriculum in a school just did not 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.639 match up to this to his pretty bored in high school. 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.119 And I'm not that smart, you know. I was also 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.600 pretty bored in high school when we weren't talking about Shakespeare. 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.080 When we were talking about Shakespeare, was very much engaged. 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.760 Um No, I had some great teachers in high school. 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:24.840 Please people, if don't don't write me hate mail teachers. Um. 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.199 So he also, while not in high school, taught himself 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.000 how to code and Python, so that was kind of impressive. 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.479 You know, he decided that he needed to learn some 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:38.080 more coding language. Um and uh. Then he ended up 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:44.119 meeting a couple of important people, including Abelson again, also 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.760 Lawrence Lessig, who would become uh sort of a mentor 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.000 and friend to him throughout his life. And um uh 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:56.080 Eric Eldridge, Eldred Rather and they they were they had 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.920 just weren't banded together to create um creative commons. Now, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:05.000 creative comments is a way of licensing and copyrighting software 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:08.679 that is not as restrictive as the traditional copyright right, 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.640 because traditional copyright in the United States, at least, um 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:14.359 it's pretty much a one zero it's a yes no 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:18.040 kind of permission thing, wherein it's it's very possessive and 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.440 it lasts forever and not literally forever, but you might 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.399 as well be it's and it gets it seems like 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:30.280 every year there are more companies petitioning to lengthen the 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.160 the era of copyright. Um. Often you'll hear people talk 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:36.720 about Disney being one of the big ones that they 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.240 never want Mickey Mouse to pass out of copyright, and uh, 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.520 I mean from a from a business perspective, you can 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.960 totally understand their point of view. From a creative perspective, 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:49.200 and someone who wants to be able to take other 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.920 creative works and do something new with them, it's a 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.159 very frustrating experience because you might have a great idea 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.639 that would make someone else's great idea a superlative idea, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:01.719 but you can't do it without the fear of being sued. 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:05.119 And so what lessig Abelson and Eldred wanted to do 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:07.840 was create a form of licensing that would allow people 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:12.160 who are creating works to choose how those works could 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:16.440 be protected, distributed and protected and remixed and exactly. Yeah, 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.280 so that way, like if if Lauren were to create 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:22.000 something really awesome. But she says, you know, I know 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:23.720 there are people out there who are going to look 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:25.880 at this in ways I never imagined, and I want 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:28.119 to see what comes of it. She could choose to 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.679 license it under creative Comments in such a way that 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.400 other people could use that work, possibly with some restrictions 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:36.480 some and there were a lot of different options where 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.479 you could do things like say, yes, you can use 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.199 this work, but not in a commercial sense, or you 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:45.240 can use this work, but you must attribute the originational creator. 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.959 So um, it gave a lot more flexibility. But they 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.359 had a problem. While they were working out all the 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:55.760 technical issues from the law side, the legal issues, the 0:24:55.800 --> 0:25:00.119 policy issues, they weren't sure how to incorporate this the 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:03.480 actual technological side, right because at the you know, at 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:05.320 the end of a text article you can throw in 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.080 a tag that says copyright this person, or you know, 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:10.200 you can you can use this work in these ways, 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:11.840 But how do you do that on a music file 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.760 video without without actually having it pop up as you know, 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:20.760 someone say, y'all, this is creative Commons and it's a 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:23.840 song about my dog. Um, yeah, you don't want to 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:25.560 do that at the beginning of very file. And so 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:28.840 what Aaron ended up doing was he began to work 0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:31.959 on code that would allow him to embed that information 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:36.600 again data meta data, data about data. Uh. This code 0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:39.840 would be able to exist within a file and be 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:44.960 readable and meaningful, so that when you were distributing this file, 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:47.399 you would actually be able to see how it was 0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:50.480 distributed under the Creative Commons and make sure that it's 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:54.680 following the right standards. So he played a very important 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:58.560 part early on the Creative Commons world to make sure 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.960 that it made sense for him a technical perspective, technological 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:07.560 perspective and yeah, huge influence on that. And again talking 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.720 with people like Lessig and A. Wilson and Eldred gave 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:14.760 him an even greater appreciation for this idea that information 0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:19.399 is important and people needed so once more reinforcing his 0:26:19.480 --> 0:26:23.359 own philosophy which again he had already started to develop 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:27.160 before he began to work on this project. Um. Then 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:32.800 in two thousand one he co wrote a paper with 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:36.400 James Hendler, was a professor at the University of Maryland. 0:26:37.040 --> 0:26:39.879 The paper was called the semantic web, a network of 0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:42.679 content for the digital city. So this again is that 0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.480 idea of a web that is almost intelligent in a 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:49.160 way that everything is mapped to everything else in such 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:52.879 a way that associations are made very naturally. Uh. He 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.679 ended up going to co present this paper in Kyoto 0:26:56.880 --> 0:26:59.040 so in two thousand one. Yeah again, yeah, this is 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:03.239 this is when he was still fourteen on the right 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:06.880 around that age. Yeah, kind of crazy. And then um, 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:12.000 just to kind of illustrate his philosophy on licensing. He 0:27:12.000 --> 0:27:17.399 he had a very um clever sense of humor, and 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:20.840 he could he could word things in such a way 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:23.160 where you get the meaning and you get the humor 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:27.480 at the same time. For instance, he decided to to 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:33.640 summarize certain organizations views on copyright in the form of haiku, 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:39.600 and he was trying to explain what what these different 0:27:40.800 --> 0:27:43.840 approach is meant in a very simple way. So, for example, 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.040 for the public domain, public domain meaning that it is 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:52.080 not under copyright and anyone can access it without fear 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:56.879 of any you know, legal repercussion exactly says do what 0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:00.639 you feel like, since the work is abandoned, the law 0:28:00.720 --> 0:28:04.880 doesn't care. That was hiking Number one might tease approach, 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:09.119 take my code with you and do whatever you want, 0:28:09.720 --> 0:28:12.960 but please don't blame me. And then you have the 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:16.720 r I double A. That's the the Recording Institutent Associate 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:22.479 Industry Association America in this little litigious group you might 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:29.720 have heard, famously infamously opposed to UH to digital distribution, 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.879 or at least digital digital distribution without some form of 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:35.680 really restrictive d r M. Yeah. They really wanted everything 0:28:35.680 --> 0:28:38.560 to run off of d r M. Yeah. Anyway, R 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:43.400 double A. They're also infamously UH known for getting involved 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:48.560 in policy decisions, advocating for policy decisions, his take on 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:53.000 their approaches. If you touch this file, my lawyers will 0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:58.680 come kill you, so kindly refrain out. Yeah. Well, I 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.440 think this is a good moment to take a quick 0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:12.520 break and hear from our sponsors. And now back to 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:15.760 the show. So we're gonna skip ahead to when he 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:19.080 was the right old age of seventeen, and that's when 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.920 he began to work on a project called info Gummy 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:26.320 and this was a WEEKI platform, yep, and it eventually 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:30.920 merged with another company that has gone on to UH 0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:33.560 to some acclaim. You might have heard of it. It's 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.920 called Reddit. Ye. Reddit. I know some people who think 0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.560 of read it as really it really is at their 0:29:40.680 --> 0:29:43.240 front page to the Internet, you know, because Reddit, of 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:46.600 course divides things up into categories and then subcategories or 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:50.200 reddits and subreddits if you prefer, and you can read 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:53.120 all about these different headlines that are coming out all 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:56.200 across the web from all sorts of different sources. You 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:59.360 can vote up or vote down stories, so that the 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:02.440 ones that you've think are particularly well written or pertinent 0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:06.280 are at the top, and ones that are not applicable 0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:11.000 or whatever get voted down. A free flowing sharing of information. 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:14.560 Yeah uh. And ideally it works really well, although depending 0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:17.440 upon which reddit commentary pill bits and pieces if it 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:19.800 can be wretched, has this common villainy right, and some 0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:23.560 some subreddit communities are fantastic, absolutely, and then some subreddit 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:26.760 communities just are filled with flame wars um and it happens. 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:29.480 But anyway, so he was he was technically he was 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:31.920 a co creator, a co creator of Reddit. Yeah so 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:35.520 so Reddit as a company existed before Aaron came on 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.760 board because the company's merged. But it wasn't. It wasn't 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:42.360 what it is. It wasn't what it is today. Exactly. 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:46.920 So he ended up creating it a special kind of 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.760 web development library, uh that they ended up switching to. 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.720 They had it a previous one, they switched to the 0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:57.520 one that Sworts creates, and then the site kind of 0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:00.520 took off and in fact was purchased by the Nast 0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:05.160 and uh that purchased that deal ended up making Aaron 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:08.960 wealthy overnight, extremely wealthy. Yeah, and you know, the the 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.480 entire Reddit team was moved into Wired's offices. Wired is 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:16.600 owned by Conde Nasty. Wired's offices in San Francisco, because 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.200 before that he had been working in other parts of California, 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:23.320 which um he preferred. Uh. He was not a fan 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.040 of San Francisco. He was not really a fan of 0:31:26.080 --> 0:31:29.360 the Wired offices or of the entire He didn't like 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:33.480 the job. Like I have a feeling that anytime Swartz 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:39.200 encountered constraints, he became frustrated, and the more constrained he was, 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:43.640 the more frustrated he would become. And Uh, one of 0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:46.480 the other elements of Swartz's life, and it's a it's 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:50.040 a tragic element, is that he was, uh he battled 0:31:50.040 --> 0:31:54.240 depression and that in this environment where he was coming 0:31:54.280 --> 0:31:56.520 up against all these constraints that he did not like. 0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:02.080 Depression was starting to get to him. Um he wrote 0:32:02.240 --> 0:32:06.240 a story, a fictional story, but people began to question 0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:10.040 how fictional it was that that some people began to 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:13.800 interpret as a potential suicide note a plea for help, 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:18.120 and people began to check on him and UM he 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:22.360 then was essentially asked to resign and or fired, depending 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.280 upon the depending on the right the terminology you really 0:32:25.280 --> 0:32:27.920 want to use. Either way, the it was it was 0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:35.440 clear that his his his happiness was not going to 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:38.760 come into play while he's working there. He was not 0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:41.280 contributing to the company in the way that they wanted, 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:46.160 and UH, no party in that relationship was happy. So 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:52.320 he ended up leaving uh Reddit. But but that was 0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:54.600 probably for the best because again it was just clear 0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:57.800 that it was not a good fit. Um And in 0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:01.040 two thousand seven he ended up joininging UH the Internet 0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:05.840 Archive Project and launched a project called open Library now 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:10.920 open Library. Essentially, it creates a web page for every 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:14.320 book that's within the database of various libraries and research 0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:18.240 facilities and other organizations. It takes the meta data about 0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:21.400 those books and creates a web page based on the metadata. 0:33:21.440 --> 0:33:24.200 So you're not getting necessarily the content come to book. 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:31.200 But yeah, so so it's a useful tool. And uh, 0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:34.760 it also allows anyone to add to that tool to 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:39.200 the open library project, which again it's involving metadata, it's 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.920 involving sharing information. We're starting to see a real theme 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:45.320 developed with Aaron's life and his work. He he also 0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:49.640 at that point, um, not quite with permission, posted all 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.200 of the book cataloging data kept by the Library of 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:55.800 Congress to open library. And this is this is another 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:58.800 theme that goes on frequently in Eron's life of of 0:33:58.920 --> 0:34:01.880 just just small I mean, okay, not even small, because 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:08.160 that's kind of big, big activism, big peaceful informational activism. Yeah. 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:11.520 He he would take initiative. Let's let's put it that way. 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:13.880 That taking initiative is going to become a theme very 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:17.080 quickly too. Absolutely. And in two thousand and eight, in fact, 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:20.480 he he wrote what he called the Guerrilla Open Access Manifesto, 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:25.399 and this was this this really kind of kicked off 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:29.400 his um, his public persona I think of of being 0:34:29.440 --> 0:34:31.719 that kind of activist. There's a great quote from it 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:35.560 that I want to read real quick. Um he said, 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.439 it's called stealing or piracy, as if sharing a wealth 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.919 of knowledge where the moral equivalent of plundering a ship 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:43.800 and murdering its crew. But sharing isn't moral, it's a 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:47.440 moral imperative. Only those blinded by greed would refuse to 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:53.279 let a friend make a copy. Mm hmm. Interesting And 0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:56.279 then moving on from that, and the same year, in 0:34:56.280 --> 0:34:59.600 two thousand and eight, uh, he got involved in a 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:04.800 little kerfuffle. Uh, alright, So so to explain the kerfuffle, 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.600 we have to talk about the PACER system, and that's 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:11.480 the public Access to Court electronic record system, and it's 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:16.240 essentially a government run database and it's mostly court filing, 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.400 so it's all the stuff that happens in open court. 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:25.920 And by by definition, they are uncopyrightable. They are public access. Yes, yes, 0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:29.480 because these are you know, the government cannot copyright information. 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:31.880 You know, it's not allowed to. It's the same reason 0:35:31.920 --> 0:35:35.680 why if you go look at information that was generated 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:40.600 by NASA, it's not protected by copyright. Um. So, same 0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:44.200 sort of thing here. But the database, what I was 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:46.080 doing was just trying to solve a problem. You've got 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:49.160 so much information that it's very difficult to track down 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.520 specific files in a physical filing system and Also, it 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:55.279 generates a huge amount of material that you have to 0:35:55.400 --> 0:35:59.440 create physical space for it to store it. So Pacer 0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:02.920 was the let's create an electronic system one that will 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:04.759 cut down on the amount of space we need to 0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:06.359 store all these files. And too, it will make it 0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:10.120 way easier to find stuff. Sure. Sure in order to 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:12.719 do that, however, I mean, because you know to to 0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:14.680 to run the servers to do all of that uploading, 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.279 it was charging at the time an eight cent per 0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:21.520 page fee to access all of this information. Um and 0:36:21.719 --> 0:36:23.840 and that was I mean that was mostly for giant 0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:26.799 law firms or corporations that were downloading large amounts of 0:36:26.840 --> 0:36:29.759 that data. You were if you were an individual, you 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:32.840 could get something for for for a couple bucks or 0:36:32.960 --> 0:36:36.719 for free sometimes free. Frequently you were limited as an 0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:41.400 individual to how many times you could get court files 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:45.200 within a certain span of times. So for example, every 0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:47.279 three months or four months, you might be able to 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:49.680 download five files, but then you would have to wait 0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:53.399 to download more or pay or pay right exactly and 0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:57.360 uh and Sworts philosophy was that why should you be 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:00.400 forced to pay for something that should be publicly possible? 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:05.000 It is, it is the public and it should be right, 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:08.480 So so if it's you know, if it's not under copyright, 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:15.240 then why you So Pacer kind of responded to criticisms 0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:19.400 about this database and began to create a pilot program 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:23.720 and allowed seventeen libraries in the United States free access 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:28.160 to the database, so anyone could download as many documents 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:34.440 within Pacer. Yeah, so Aaron decided that he had a 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:37.759 clever idea. He was like, well, so, well, I can 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:40.200 get as many of these for free as possible, and 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:43.160 then because they're not under copyright, I can upload them 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:46.200 to a free database which anyone can access at any 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:48.920 time for absolutely free, because and no one can come 0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:52.560 after me because there if I just uncopyrightable files, if 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:54.239 I just write a script to do that for me, 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:56.759 that's much faster. I don't have to sit there and 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:01.160 set up the little uh, the little ducking birdie thing 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:04.000 that Homer Simpson used to flick yes over and over 0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:07.880 again when he when he had that takeover for his job. Um, 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:11.120 it's a great episode. But yeah. No, he created a 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:18.880 script that would automatically and continuously download these files. Um. 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:27.160 He downloaded almost twenty million pages of text, or about 0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:30.520 about one point five million dollars worth if you're going 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:33.239 by that eight cents of right, which you know, again 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:36.000 you can debate on what the actual value is. But way, 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:39.560 he downloaded all of this, and once once it hit 0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:43.000 around that that much, someone over at Pacers said, WHOA, 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:46.520 something something funky is going down. Something's wrong. Someone is 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:49.560 just downloading all of it. Yeah, And whether or not 0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:51.719 they thought that it was an attack or maybe the 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:55.279 system itself was just malfunctioning, they decided to to pull 0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:59.000 the plug both on the servers. Literally, they shut the 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:02.160 servers down at first of that the they would no 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:05.480 longer be serving up the information, and then they canceled 0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:09.720 the program. Though with the libraries, they canceled that program 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:14.840 and then they they were not. They also had to 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:19.120 deal with a nasty pr problem because the documents that 0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:23.040 that Sworts got showed that the Pacers system was not 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:28.120 good at eliminating personal data out of court files. So 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.880 this is data that should be the should be private 0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:33.799 and secret, It should be anonymous, should be protected. Right, 0:39:34.000 --> 0:39:37.279 So the court filings themselves are not necessarily anonymous, but 0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:39.880 the personal data about the people in them should be. 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:44.680 So it began to raise some questions about the PACER system, 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:48.880 and some critics said, you know, technologically, we should not 0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:51.640 have this problem. Uh, we are at a place now 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.279 where this system should be way better than what it is. 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:56.440 And so it kind of gave the government a black eye. 0:39:56.520 --> 0:40:02.120 Some people have said it perhaps this gave the United 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:04.760 States government, or at least certain agencies within the government, 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:10.920 the the inspiration to look more closely into Aaron Schwartz 0:40:11.000 --> 0:40:14.320 and his activities. Supposedly the FBI at that point created 0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:16.960 a profile on him, Yeah, which which Swarts said he 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:21.640 got hold of and found uh entertaining. Um, but yeah, 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:25.400 it was so some would argue that this kind of 0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:29.239 created a grudge against Swarts on the on behalf of 0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:32.759 the government, and that perhaps some of the other things 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:36.360 that unfold were part of that. I wouldn't I personally 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:38.919 wouldn't go so far as to say that, But then 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:43.520 I'm not intimate with all the details I know. Um, 0:40:43.560 --> 0:40:46.279 but then let's let's move ahead. In two thousand and eight, 0:40:46.320 --> 0:40:50.400 he became part of the Progressive Change Campaign Committee. He 0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:53.720 was one of the original members. This was a campaign committee. 0:40:53.760 --> 0:40:59.160 It was really about UH campaign financing reforms, trying to 0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:04.799 do things like eliminate corporate UH contributions during election campaigns 0:41:05.040 --> 0:41:09.360 and to just limit political contributions in general from corporations, 0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:11.440 saying that, well, one of the things they suggested was, 0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:13.319 why don't you hold it up to a vote from 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:19.560 shareholders whether or not you contribute to a particular political candidate. Um, 0:41:19.680 --> 0:41:25.279 that sort of stuff. Uh. He was definitely very opinionated 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:28.000 on that subject. Also, in case you're curious, I mean, 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:33.759 just for full information, Uh, this committee mostly backs progressive Democrats. 0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:38.000 That's not to say that there aren't progressive Republicans. There are. 0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:42.239 There are progressive conservatives and progressive liberals, but in particular, 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:48.239 this particularly this committee, the specific committee tends to lean democrat. Um. 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:51.400 So just in the full, full disclosure, full disclosure information 0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:58.400 there and in two Swartz. Swartz was not afraid of 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:01.600 of of poking the bear, as it turns out, and 0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:07.240 he was also very again, very passionate about information. And uh. 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.920 He proved it again in when he filed a Freedom 0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:14.280 of Information Act request to learn about how Bradley Manning 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:18.200 was being treated in US custody. Uh. And if you 0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:21.680 aren't familiar with the story of Bradley Manning, Bradley Manning 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:25.800 was a U. S. Army soldier private actually who gained 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:30.480 access to some some pretty high level security clearance information 0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:35.040 within the military and leaked it to wiki leaks. So 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:37.719 when you heard about all those cables from a few 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:42.959 years ago, thousands and thousands of communication cables that were 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:45.960 leaked to wiki leaks, a lot of that was traced 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:49.080 back to Bradley Manning, and Manning has been held in 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:53.080 confinement awaiting trial. The trial is supposed to take place 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:57.480 this year in June. UM, but for a long time 0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:03.120 he was being held and the Marine or brig in Quantico, Virginia, 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:09.200 which was similar to being held in solitary confinement. His 0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:13.600 conditions were uncomfortable, to say the least. He was by 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:16.319 many reports. Uh, he was in a cell where he 0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:20.280 was unable to see any other prisoner. Within those cells, 0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:22.680 they could hear each other, but they could not see 0:43:22.760 --> 0:43:27.120 each other. Um. Supposedly he was not allowed to sleep 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:29.640 between the hours of five am and eight pm at 0:43:29.640 --> 0:43:35.879 all um and then uh he was only allowed out 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:38.279 of his cell to take a walk for one hour 0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:41.680 the first time he was in a cell. Um. His 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:46.120 his cell had I think no window. I think it 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:48.319 had a sink, a toilet, and a bed, and the 0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:50.960 bed had a mattress that had a pillow incorporated in 0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:55.840 the mattress, and that when Manning made a comment about 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:58.720 the only way he could hurt himself, they essentially started 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:00.920 to take away all his clothing as well, according to 0:44:00.960 --> 0:44:04.000 the reports I read, when he made a comment saying 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:06.480 that the only way he could possibly hurt himself at 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:08.360 this point would be with his flip flops or underwear, 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:13.120 those were taken away as well. Future Jonathan again, doubly future, 0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.799 since I'm recording this in twenty nineteen, We're gonna take 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:27.040 another quick break. So this is the reason why uh 0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:30.440 Swarts was sitting in this Freedom of Information Act request. 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:34.560 He felt that one that what Manning had done possibly 0:44:34.760 --> 0:44:37.040 was not as big a crime as everyone was making 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:38.760 it out to be, and certainly he did not deserve 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:41.480 the sort of treatment before he had even gone to trial. Certainly, 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:45.160 um so Manning, for his part, by the way, was 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:50.320 pleading not guilty. So to be treated this way, uh Swarts, 0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:56.799 I'm sure felt passionately was completely wrong, completely um And 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:00.480 I should also rush to add this is all based 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:05.640 on what I've read about how how Manning was so again, 0:45:05.680 --> 0:45:07.600 I wasn't there, and it could be that he was 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.080 treated completely fairly. And this information has been fabricated for 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:13.200 some reason. But this this was the information that was 0:45:13.239 --> 0:45:15.480 out there at the time and or that is out 0:45:15.480 --> 0:45:19.280 there now right and then um, ultimately he was manning 0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:23.120 was moved to the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, which 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:26.440 was a relatively new facility. And from what I understand 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:30.279 his the cell that he is in is much improved 0:45:30.360 --> 0:45:33.640 over the one he was in Quantico. Um. So, anyway, 0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:37.680 that was another thing Sports got involved in. And uh. Again, 0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:42.520 some conspiracy theorists suggests that that the government, the grudge 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:45.200 that the government had back in the Pacers situation was 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:49.920 up to mega grudge after this, uh this request, although 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:52.319 Sports was not the only person in the world to 0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:56.399 ask for the suscormationum So, I don't know, I don't 0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:00.400 really buy into that. Uh. Skipping ahead just a little bit. 0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:02.640 We're gonna backtrack in a second. But he was also 0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:09.440 Sports was also an advocate against the SOPA campaign Stop 0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:14.720 Online Piracy Act in two thousand and eleven that was proposed. Yeah, 0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:17.959 the general idea behind this act was that a lot 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:21.720 of the stuff, a lot of the computers that host 0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:26.640 the files that violate intellectual property rights of companies and 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:29.920 people within the United States. A lot of those computers 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:34.440 exist in countries outside the US jurisdiction, and so how 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:38.879 do you and how do you stop those sites from 0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:43.279 distributing illegal copies of stuff within the United States. And 0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:48.760 SOPA's approach was to break links to those sites, essentially, 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.239 to remove those sites from domain name servers here in 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:53.839 the United States, so that if you were to try 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:55.719 and navigate to one of those sites, he would get 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:58.840 an error. Essentially, you would get redirected to the FBI 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:03.799 while page, which would in theory scare you and to 0:47:03.960 --> 0:47:06.399 stop to stop looking for ways to do it. There 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:10.759 were definitely work arounds to this um and a lot 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:14.520 of people protested SOPA because they said that one it 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:17.319 would not stop pirates from pirating because they could find 0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:19.920 ways around it, and too, it could break the Internet 0:47:19.960 --> 0:47:24.959 in unintended ways. I think Swartz was more of more 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.120 of information wants to be free, not so much like 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:30.920 it will break the Internet or we can get around this, 0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:34.000 but more like more of it's wrong to shut down 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:38.400 information where information exists. Yeah. So, but he was definitely 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:41.560 on the anti SOPA side, and he gave a very 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:47.320 eloquent speech when SOPA failed to pass, and and really 0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:52.920 was passionate about telling people don't rest because this idea 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:55.279 is not a not a new idea, it's something that's 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:58.920 been tried multiple times and will be tried again. Yeah, 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:02.480 So that that leads us to to the I guess 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:05.680 the last part of this this saga the story about 0:48:05.760 --> 0:48:09.520 j store, which actually started back in November, So this 0:48:09.600 --> 0:48:13.799 predates the SOPA stuff, but it kind of it envelops it. 0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:18.440 J Store the company Essentially, it stands for journal storage, right, 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:21.880 and it's a it's a library of publicly funded academic articles. Yeah, 0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:26.160 so we're talking again about scholarly information. So this is 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:30.279 kind of similar to the the the the information that 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:32.759 was in Pacer. Of course that was court filings, not 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:37.600 scholar scholarship. But in this case we're talking about academic journals, 0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:41.440 books and papers that are from primary sources. These are 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:44.280 the people who are doing the rescientific research, medical research, 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.600 all kinds of really terrific stuff is in Jason. Essentially, 0:48:47.640 --> 0:48:51.120 all the blogs you read are based off of the 0:48:51.160 --> 0:48:54.800 academic papers that are stored in databases like j store, 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:57.719 and j store has about well a little bit over 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:01.200 four hundred journal titles and more than fifty disciplines are 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:06.279 represented in j stores database. And it was the whole 0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:08.279 purpose of J store. Well, first it was founded by 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:11.719 William J. G. Bowen or Bowen, who was president of 0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:15.600 Princeton University, and it was again trying to solve that 0:49:15.680 --> 0:49:17.680 same problem that Pacer was trying to solve. How do 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:23.040 you make this vast amount of academic information searchable and 0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:25.800 feasible to store because it takes up so much space. 0:49:25.840 --> 0:49:29.280 Libraries were having trouble storing all this stuff, of course, 0:49:29.680 --> 0:49:32.880 so J store was kind of the solution. And most 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:35.080 of the stuff, not all of it, like anything that's 0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:38.760 in the public domain is publicly accessible through j store, 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:43.520 but anything that's currently under you know, the copyright or 0:49:43.520 --> 0:49:45.320 whatever you have to you have to pay to access 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:50.520 behind a paywall. And uh and and again Swartz Swarts 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:53.440 didn't necessarily think that it needed to be behind a paywall. 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:57.759 Um or they needed or then needed to just exist 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:03.360 uh on J store and uh and there's some arguments 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.640 about exactly what he did, but essentially he got access 0:50:06.640 --> 0:50:08.360 to a computer at the Mighty, which was fine. He 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:12.280 had he had authorization to access right he was currently 0:50:12.320 --> 0:50:18.120 a fellow at the Center for Ethics at Harvard. Yeah, 0:50:18.239 --> 0:50:21.400 which some people would say is ironic, but yeah, he 0:50:22.440 --> 0:50:25.279 got access to a computer at in mighty um, and 0:50:25.400 --> 0:50:28.759 he began to use again another kind of algorithm to 0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:31.400 start downloading documents from j store. I think it was 0:50:31.440 --> 0:50:33.719 a Python script actually, which you had mentioned that he 0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.000 learned he had learned when he dropped out of high school. 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:41.320 Relying on that Python knowledge, uh and not the Monty kind. Um, 0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:46.480 he managed to download around four million journals out of 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:49.960 j Store, and Jay Store was able to identify that 0:50:50.040 --> 0:50:55.760 it was Swartz and essentially confronted him with this, and 0:50:56.239 --> 0:50:59.839 ultimately Swartz and j Store ended up settling this this 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:04.439 dispute out of court. Uh, and Swords actually handed over 0:51:04.520 --> 0:51:08.400 the information he had downloaded from j Store, and j Store, 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:11.440 for its part, essentially said all right, we're cool. You 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:13.279 know what. We don't agree with what you did, but 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:15.640 we understand why you did it, and you returned everything. 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:18.319 So where everything's cool and it could have ended right 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:22.479 then and there. Sure, but but um, well, people people 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:24.600 argue a little bit about what role M I T 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:27.040 has had in all of this, and some people say 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:32.279 that the administration they're really cracked down unnecessarily hard on him, 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:34.920 and a lot of I think a lot of alumni 0:51:35.000 --> 0:51:37.120 have come out saying like, well, in my day, you know, 0:51:37.280 --> 0:51:39.319 earlier in the nineteen seventies at M I T, if 0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:42.560 someone had had hacked our system and started downloading this 0:51:42.600 --> 0:51:45.480 amount of information from such a terrific databases J store, 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:48.279 we would have we would have congratulated them, we would 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:52.400 have given given them a certificate. And and and it's 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:56.000 a little parade. Yeah, yeah, And and there's some who 0:51:56.040 --> 0:52:00.239 say that M I T did not actively pursue a 0:52:00.320 --> 0:52:04.640 case against Sports, but also did not discourage They did 0:52:04.680 --> 0:52:07.960 certainly call the cops on him. Yeah, so that's when 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:11.880 the government gets involved. And uh, the government essentially charges 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:16.960 Sports with thirteen Ultimately it was thirteen criminal court criminal counts, 0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:22.200 which included things like wire fraud, computer fraud, information, you 0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:25.480 have to information, this kind of stuff. Um and Uh. 0:52:25.520 --> 0:52:29.560 He was released on a hundred thousand dollars bail. The charges, 0:52:30.120 --> 0:52:33.759 depending upon the accounts you read, could have resulted in 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.960 him serving a prison sentence of between thirty and fifty 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:41.240 years at max. UM. Many of many of the accounts 0:52:41.280 --> 0:52:46.359 I say, CE say, thirty five several. Yeah, there's one 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:49.879 I think CNN article that said fifty and I think 0:52:50.160 --> 0:52:52.400 I think that people are adding them up in different ways. 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:55.240 But but um, and this is all under the Computer 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:58.799 Fraud and Abuse Act. And uh. He also would have 0:52:58.880 --> 0:53:02.000 faced up to maybe as much as four million dollars 0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:05.279 and fines, and now it's far more likely that the 0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:09.840 government would have ended up reducing that to just six months. 0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:12.840 And some fine say that it would have been they 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:16.400 were offering a a plea based on the fact that 0:53:16.440 --> 0:53:21.319 there was no personal gain intended from right and um. 0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:27.640 So some have said that the government was essentially using 0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:30.719 Swarts as an example to scare the heck out of 0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:33.320 any of anyone else who would want to try something similar. 0:53:33.719 --> 0:53:38.080 So you could kind of compare this to stories about 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:42.120 cases where people who downloaded some music files ended up 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:45.480 getting pulled into a court case where the fine would 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:49.960 have been, you know, an astronomical billion dollars, five dollars 0:53:49.960 --> 0:53:53.280 per song or something like that, And it's a similar 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:56.719 situation in that sense. It could have been that, you know, 0:53:56.800 --> 0:53:58.799 that the whole goal here was not so much to 0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.920 punish Swartz into next century, but rather to act as 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:06.040 a deterrent for anyone else to scare people, which, by 0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:10.879 the way, government and everybody else that rarely works. More 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:18.320 often than not, you get people more angry terrible things. UM. 0:54:18.400 --> 0:54:20.399 I'm not saying that you aren't you know, you don't 0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:22.800 have a right to act on things that are against 0:54:22.800 --> 0:54:24.960 the law. I'm just saying, think about the way you 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.239 do it, because you could end up making a worse 0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:31.319 enemy for yourself. You might find a better way of 0:54:31.360 --> 0:54:34.680 working around it, is my point. So again not saying 0:54:34.680 --> 0:54:37.239 that they're in the wrong. I mean, Sports was in 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:39.919 the wrong, but how much he was in the wrong 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:43.680 was another question. And and in in this case, um 0:54:44.880 --> 0:54:47.080 and again, like like we said at the beginning of 0:54:47.080 --> 0:54:48.719 the podcast, and like I'm sure that you've heard on 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:52.840 the news on January eleven, Sports was found dead in 0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:57.120 his apartment. Uh. He had he had apparently committed suicide. 0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:00.239 Uh and um uh. You know, there's been a lot 0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:04.600 of people raising suggestions about what it was that specifically 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:07.320 led to his decision to end his life. And again, 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:11.600 because we are not Aaron, we can't we can't be 0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:14.279 sure what led to it. And his family has come 0:55:14.280 --> 0:55:18.480 out as being very very passionately saying that it was 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:22.120 because of this persecution. Yeah, that he was feeling a 0:55:22.239 --> 0:55:25.359 huge amount of stress and that again his depression was 0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:31.040 something that was was was really plaguing him at that time. 0:55:31.960 --> 0:55:34.640 That and you can sort of imagine that if you 0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:37.239 are this person who has this idealistic view of how 0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:40.520 the world should be and then you start to encounter 0:55:41.200 --> 0:55:44.200 so much, so much persecution and resistance to to your 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:46.839 dream where you know, you you can see in your 0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:50.040 mind you think, there's this idealistic world we could be 0:55:50.120 --> 0:55:52.799 living in and it would be so easy. But I'm 0:55:52.880 --> 0:55:55.680 I'm hitting resistance all the way and every time I 0:55:55.719 --> 0:55:58.640 try and make a change, I get ten more obstacles 0:55:58.640 --> 0:56:00.480 in my way. You can kind of see where that 0:56:00.520 --> 0:56:03.799 sort of hopelessness could creep in if if that was 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:06.480 you know, in fact, what Aaron was thinking. And again 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:09.520 this is just kind of it's all it's all speculation. 0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:12.839 And you know, the U. S. Attorney's Office of its 0:56:12.880 --> 0:56:15.759 Carmen Orts is in fact office, She's the U. S. 0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:21.480 Attorney of Massachusetts has said that um that that their 0:56:21.520 --> 0:56:27.120 office is contact conduct was not in fact inappropriate. They 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:30.919 they have maintained that what everything they did was well 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:34.480 within the limits of the law and in ethics, which 0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:37.840 because again, just because something's legal doesn't mean it's ethical, 0:56:38.840 --> 0:56:41.120 and vice versa. Yeah, there's there's been there's been a 0:56:41.160 --> 0:56:43.600 huge pushback against her office. There's a white House dot 0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:46.359 gov petition out right now as of as of late 0:56:46.440 --> 0:56:50.600 January with over forty six thousand signatures to remove her 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:53.040 from office. Yeah, and there's been a lot of outcry 0:56:53.160 --> 0:56:56.640 on the internet on behalf of sports. There's also been 0:56:56.719 --> 0:57:01.360 some resistance, uh, some people who have criticized Swartz and 0:57:01.440 --> 0:57:03.880 his his ideals. I've seen some of that. There have 0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:07.480 been some hackers who have kind of made you know, 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:12.080 they've defaced some memorials online. You know, it's it's a 0:57:12.080 --> 0:57:14.840 complex thing. Some sometimes you could argue that, you know, 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:17.480 maybe the hackers really do feel that Swartz was not 0:57:18.000 --> 0:57:20.040 the person that other people are making him out to be. 0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:22.280 In other cases, I think, you know, it could just 0:57:22.320 --> 0:57:25.960 be you know, making a play for attention, for attention. Yeah, 0:57:26.040 --> 0:57:29.560 this is a high profile instance on the flip side. 0:57:29.800 --> 0:57:31.919 M I T s website has been hacked twice since 0:57:31.960 --> 0:57:35.160 Swarts of suicide, once by anonymous who also threatened action 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.680 against the Westbergo Baptist Church when they announced that they 0:57:37.720 --> 0:57:40.680 would pick at swarts as funeral, which they backed off of. 0:57:41.120 --> 0:57:44.800 They did not, They did not show up. Yeah, and 0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:48.280 again when we say that Anonymous does something, keep in 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:51.080 mind that's you know, that's a group that has no 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:56.000 real uh well, there's there's no real structure to it. 0:57:56.160 --> 0:58:00.280 So sometimes members of Anonymous may act. That's very true. Yeah, 0:58:00.320 --> 0:58:03.040 It's always hard to say that Anonymous did anything because 0:58:03.080 --> 0:58:05.160 it could just be a group of people, could be 0:58:05.200 --> 0:58:10.280 one person. But anyway, yes, uh, they did definitely send 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:14.800 out a message saying that if if the WBC showed 0:58:14.880 --> 0:58:18.960 up at Swartz's funeral, they would block them from from 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:23.760 view of the grieving parties. Um And probably there was 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:25.560 a little bit more of a threat there too, because 0:58:25.600 --> 0:58:28.920 Anonymous has been known to make people's lives difficult, if 0:58:29.200 --> 0:58:34.240 difficult if they oppose the ideals that the group follows 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:39.880 um and and slightly slightly more positive action. Representative Zoe 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:43.160 Lofgren off California wants to propose Aaron's Law, which would 0:58:43.200 --> 0:58:47.520 be a bill to amend the cf A and uh, 0:58:49.000 --> 0:58:52.400 you know, change it so that so that these violations 0:58:52.400 --> 0:58:56.000 of terms of service and network use UM cannot be 0:58:56.240 --> 0:59:01.160 federally prosecuted unless they really should be. It's it's it's 0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:03.400 it's a complex issue, right, I mean, this is this 0:59:03.480 --> 0:59:06.800 is That was part of the whole argument in the 0:59:06.800 --> 0:59:10.600 whole Creative Commons approach was that it's not necessarily that 0:59:10.680 --> 0:59:13.480 one party is absolutely in the wrong or absolutely in 0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:15.640 the right. It is a complex issue, and so it's 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:17.800 one of those things where you know, you don't want 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:21.720 to paint with a wide brush and then find out that, oh, 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:24.400 you know, we need to take a much more precise 0:59:24.560 --> 0:59:28.240 approach to this um And also, you know, a lot 0:59:28.320 --> 0:59:32.720 of luminaries technology luminaries have come out and spoken on 0:59:32.760 --> 0:59:37.280 this subject. Lawrence Lessig has said several things about He's 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:43.480 criticized the prosecution's approach to going after swords and tim berners. 0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:47.240 Lee wrote a very poignant tweet, really gorgeous tweet. Yeah, 0:59:47.280 --> 0:59:49.520 if if I can, I'm probably gonna tear up in 0:59:49.560 --> 0:59:51.040 the middle of this tweet. And if I don't, it's 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:53.600 going to be a miracle. But he he tweeted, um 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:56.960 Aaron dead, world wanderers, we have lost a wise elder. 0:59:57.240 --> 1:00:00.400 Hackers for right, we are one down. Parents always lost 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:03.720 a child. Let us a weep, oh timmer nurs Lee 1:00:03.760 --> 1:00:06.320 what are you doing to me? Yeah, he's uh yeah. 1:00:06.360 --> 1:00:09.840 He definitely definitely summed it up really well for a 1:00:09.840 --> 1:00:15.440 lot of people. Um. Shortly after after the discovery that 1:00:15.480 --> 1:00:19.160 Sports had committed suicide, I appeared on an episode of 1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:23.680 Tech News Today and we discussed the the the story 1:00:24.280 --> 1:00:27.760 and uh uh yeah it was. I mean, that was 1:00:27.800 --> 1:00:31.200 a tough discussion even then, and that was fresh after 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:34.760 finding out about it. Um, and it has not become 1:00:34.800 --> 1:00:38.120 easier as time has gone on. Also over at m 1:00:38.160 --> 1:00:41.000 I T, for m I T S part, they decided 1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:45.520 to create a review panel to look into how m 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:49.760 I T handled the whole situation and whether or not 1:00:50.960 --> 1:00:55.040 the people at m T as a whole behaved in 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:58.000 a way that is up to m T standards. And 1:00:58.040 --> 1:01:00.560 the man who was put in charge of this review 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:04.320 panel is how Abelson, who again was one of those 1:01:04.320 --> 1:01:06.720 two men, the other being Tim berners Lee back when 1:01:06.720 --> 1:01:09.800 he was thirteen he got to meet and also a 1:01:09.840 --> 1:01:12.200 man who worked with him on the Creative Commons projects. 1:01:12.200 --> 1:01:18.040 So Abelson definitely has um firsthand knowledge of sports and 1:01:18.040 --> 1:01:23.560 and his contributions to the world. And so uh he 1:01:23.600 --> 1:01:26.680 wrote a very eloquent letter to M I T and said, 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:28.720 you know, what his intentions were as part of this 1:01:28.800 --> 1:01:31.320 review process and say that he wants to take a 1:01:31.440 --> 1:01:33.520 very honest look. He does not want it to become 1:01:33.520 --> 1:01:35.880 a witch hunt. At the same time, he does not 1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:38.560 want to just cover up anything that might be an 1:01:38.640 --> 1:01:41.480 ugly source spot for m I T. He wants the 1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:44.000 truth and he says that, you know, really, that's the 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:46.600 only thing that will serve in this situation, and it's 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:52.360 the only thing that that is appropriate considering the circumstances. Um. 1:01:52.440 --> 1:01:56.800 So yeah, and uh, and it's while we don't know 1:01:56.880 --> 1:01:59.880 all the details about what led sports to make this decision, 1:01:59.880 --> 1:02:04.040 we do know that he had battled depression. He had 1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:05.960 a history of it, you know, and it's a it's 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:10.160 kind of a lifelong, lifelong issue. Um yeah, yeah without 1:02:10.520 --> 1:02:12.640 Jonathan and I wanted to stay without making this too 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:14.520 much of an after school special. You know, it's it's 1:02:14.520 --> 1:02:16.600 depression is something that both of us have dealt with 1:02:16.600 --> 1:02:20.160 in our lives. And uh, you know, it's it's it's 1:02:20.200 --> 1:02:23.960 rough and it's terrible. But um but to borrow a phrase, 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:27.200 it gets better, and you know so, and and there's 1:02:27.200 --> 1:02:28.880 help out there. There is help out there if you 1:02:28.880 --> 1:02:31.960 are ever feeling overwhelmed. Please please talk to someone. There 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:34.400 are people who care about you. We care about you. 1:02:34.400 --> 1:02:35.960 You probably shouldn't talk to us because we are not 1:02:36.000 --> 1:02:41.080 mental health professionals. Honestly, googling suicide prevention is the best 1:02:41.080 --> 1:02:42.760 way to find help in your area. But if you're 1:02:42.760 --> 1:02:46.040 in the US, you can also call one two seven, three, 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:49.880 eight to five. It's it's free and confidential and they 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:52.480 will absolutely hook you up with helps. So yeah, it's 1:02:52.640 --> 1:02:55.720 it's definitely something that you know, we want to leave 1:02:55.760 --> 1:02:58.480 you guys with, because, like Lauren said, this is not 1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:00.920 this is not an unfamil. Are your subject to us. 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:04.000 I hope you guys got something out of this episode. 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:09.560 It's important to remember Aaron and his contributions and who 1:03:09.640 --> 1:03:12.800 he was and what he believed in. I don't want 1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:15.600 the memory of him to just fade away. So I 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.440 hope you got something from this. If you have suggestions 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:22.360 about future episode topics for tech Stuff, feel free to 1:03:22.440 --> 1:03:25.280 get in touch with me. The email addresses tech Stuff 1:03:25.360 --> 1:03:27.600 at how stuff works dot com, or you can drop 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:31.560 a line on Facebook or Twitter. Both of those handles 1:03:31.560 --> 1:03:35.120 would be text stuff h SW. You can also go 1:03:35.160 --> 1:03:38.400 to our website that's tech Stuff Podcast. Dot com. I've 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:41.280 got a weird accent going on now. 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