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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: All of these schools had graveyards like our schools. Now,

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Speaker 2: you don't build a school and build a graveyard, but

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Speaker 2: they did then.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 3: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 3: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 3: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 3: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 3: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 3: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 3: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 3: unpublished details behind their stories. If you've ever dug deep

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Speaker 3: into your family history, you know that there are sometimes surprises.

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Speaker 3: Author Tanya Talaga discovered that the life of her great

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Speaker 3: great grandmother, Annie Carpenter was mostly unknown because she was Indigenous.

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Speaker 3: It's a struggle that many Indigenous people in Canada have.

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Speaker 3: How do you learn about your family's past without crucial records?

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Speaker 3: To Laga's incredible book, The Knowing lays out Annie's story

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Speaker 3: and Tanya's journey to find the truth. So where do

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Speaker 3: we start. Your mom comes to you and says, there's

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Speaker 3: this piece of history that's missing, which is something I

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Speaker 3: deal with, you know, all the time. I'm a historical

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Speaker 3: true crime writer and podcaster, and people ask me all

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Speaker 3: the time, why does it matter? I mean, this person

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Speaker 3: has been gone generations and generations, so much has happened,

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Speaker 3: so much has developed.

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Speaker 1: What will this do?

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Speaker 3: So maybe you will have a much more eloquent answer

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Speaker 3: than I will.

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Speaker 1: Why does this matter? In your family and in general?

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Speaker 2: Oh if I had a dollar every time somebody said

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Speaker 2: that to me or you know, why can't you just

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Speaker 2: get over it? Right? As an Anashnabe, a First Nations woman,

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Speaker 2: We've always known that there are people in our family,

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Speaker 2: my maternal family that was just gone, right, A lot

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Speaker 2: of First Nations people. We have been affected by Indian

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Speaker 2: residential schools, Indian boarding schools in the States, policies of

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Speaker 2: extermination in the United States, it was Andrew Jackson, you know,

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Speaker 2: and the moving of our people, the killing of our people.

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Speaker 2: In Canada, we had something similar and we are still

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Speaker 2: governed in Canada by something called the Indian Act, which

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Speaker 2: is a race based piece of legislation that essentially assigns

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Speaker 2: a ten digit number to every single Indian quote unquote

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Speaker 2: or First Nations person in Canada. And I'm a status Indian,

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Speaker 2: so I also have attended at number with my name,

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Speaker 2: and my name's on a roll with my mother and

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Speaker 2: our relations signifying that we are under the eyes of

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Speaker 2: the Canadian government they recognize us as quote unquote Indians.

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Speaker 1: But that's a whole other.

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Speaker 2: Conversation, and that's partly part of a story that we

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Speaker 2: might get into here.

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Speaker 1: But you know, truth be told, it was.

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Speaker 2: My mom who constantly said to me she wanted to

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Speaker 2: know where Annie was. She always wanted to know what

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Speaker 2: happened to her great grandma. She knew she was in

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Speaker 2: Toronto somewhere, she didn't know where she was or what

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Speaker 2: happened to her. And she said to me, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're the journalist, Tanya. You're the one in this family

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Speaker 2: who professionally looks for people for a living. And I

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Speaker 2: do you know I've written crime stories, health stories, national politics,

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Speaker 2: covered G twenty events. You know, I've been to Latvia

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Speaker 2: and England and France, and you know, I've done all

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Speaker 2: these different stories, but the biggest story that I've ever

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Speaker 2: done is really on my own family, and that was

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Speaker 2: assigned to me by my mother.

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Speaker 1: So let's kind of get into for me.

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Speaker 3: If I were a listener, I would immediately think, why

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Speaker 3: do we think that this is something that needed to

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Speaker 3: be investigated? Not as a disappearance, because you know a

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Speaker 3: lot of people. Man, I've had a really hard time

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Speaker 3: tracing some of my great great great band parents. But

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Speaker 3: you really are connecting it to her status, Annie status,

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Speaker 3: as of course, you know, a woman of the First

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Speaker 3: Nation and everything that was happening these Indian residential schools

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Speaker 3: and boarding schools. Do we start with Annie through this

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Speaker 3: and then through the lens of Annie's story we see

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Speaker 3: what is happening over the centuries in Canada to you know,

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Speaker 3: members of First Nation?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, because when Annie was born, you know,

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Speaker 2: you have to start at the beginning, and you have

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Speaker 2: to start with what you have, right and what I had,

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Speaker 2: and all my uncle Hank really had of Annie's that

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Speaker 2: was a piece of paper that could lead us in

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Speaker 2: directions was her death certificate. He had a lot of letters,

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Speaker 2: He had a lot of random names that turned out

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Speaker 2: to be distant relations. But it was really hard finding

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Speaker 2: the thread of all that he had, you know, especially

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Speaker 2: when someone passes away and leaves you all of their notes,

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Speaker 2: you've got to sort of go through them. And he

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Speaker 2: only used to write little notes on the margins, and

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Speaker 2: so there wasn't a lot really there to go on.

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Speaker 2: But there was this death certificate, and this death certificate

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Speaker 2: gave us an idea of her age. It was wrong

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Speaker 2: when it came to her parents and where she was

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Speaker 2: from their question marks, so we didn't know any of that,

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Speaker 2: but it had her married name and so that was

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Speaker 2: a start. It had the institution that she was into

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Speaker 2: way too and at the bottom of the death certificate

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Speaker 2: it said that she was buried in a cemetery that

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Speaker 2: I'd never heard of before, but was associated with the

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Speaker 2: Ontario hospital where she died, and so that was the beginning.

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Speaker 2: It's like, okay, so where's the Ontario Hospital? What is

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Speaker 2: the Ontario Hospital? After much digging, it was a lunatic asylum,

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Speaker 2: and every single province in Canada had a provincial hospital

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Speaker 2: just like this one. And in the United States there

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Speaker 2: was also a hospital for the insane. It was called

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Speaker 2: Canton and the Canton Hospital for the quote unquote insane

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Speaker 2: also had many First Nations Native American people they were

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Speaker 2: sent there. And this piece of paper for me was

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Speaker 2: the beginning of Okay, well, now we have a first step.

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Speaker 2: We've got her married name, we've got to maybe her age.

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Speaker 2: And I had a lot, a lot of help with

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Speaker 2: trying to find more out about her. And I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you why. I mean, I've been a journalist, as I said,

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Speaker 2: for a couple decades, and I find people for a living.

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Speaker 2: But finding and sifting through government archives and records, a

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Speaker 2: lot of what the Government of Canada has archive wise

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Speaker 2: is not digitized, less than ten percent is. Most of

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Speaker 2: the archives are held in Ottawa. I live in Toronto,

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Speaker 2: which is about a four and a half hour drive

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Speaker 2: away from Ottawa, outside of Ottawa, and it was like

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Speaker 2: looking for a needle in the haystack, like literally looking

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Speaker 2: for an needle haystack. And I was lucky enough to

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Speaker 2: have a friend who is a professional archivist and who's

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Speaker 2: read both my books and said to me, you know,

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Speaker 2: the next time you ever are looking for someone and

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Speaker 2: you need some help, let me know. And it was

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Speaker 2: at that time I said to my friend Ryan, I

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Speaker 2: said you know what, I need your help. I need

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Speaker 2: your help in trying to find any. And it was

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Speaker 2: the people that he were within himself that found the

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Speaker 2: census report. The government of Canada takes a census every

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Speaker 2: ten years, and he found the eighteen eighty one census

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Speaker 2: report that told us that any her last name was

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Speaker 2: actually Carpenter, that was her maiden name, and she was

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Speaker 2: ten years old in eighteen eighty one, and that she

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Speaker 2: was from a place called Fort Albany. And Fort Albany

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Speaker 2: is way up the James Bay Coast. It's about twenty

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Speaker 2: five hundred to three thousand kilometers or about two thousand

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Speaker 2: miles north of Toronto.

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Speaker 3: I am used to ancestry, you know, US ancestry, where

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Speaker 3: you can gather a tremendous amount of information because it's digitized, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, since all of these things are pretty incredible,

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Speaker 3: you know, access that you can gain. I found so

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Speaker 3: many people in their history fairly easily thanks to ancestry.

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Speaker 3: And you're saying it's not the same. I mean, is

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Speaker 3: the US government just more proficient at digitizing everything? And

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Speaker 3: why would the US government be better at something than Canada?

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Speaker 2: Is you actually have better privacy laws too? It's easier

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Speaker 2: for you to find information than it is in Canada.

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Speaker 2: In Canada, it's pretty tough. Like as a journalist, I've come,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have to do. They're called freedom of

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Speaker 2: information requests in Ontario and federally they're called access to

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Speaker 2: Information requests, and they are not easy.

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Speaker 1: That's a step.

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Speaker 2: A step B is that a lot of the records

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Speaker 2: that were taken down that talked about our families spelled

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Speaker 2: our names wrong. They were either taken down by someone

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Speaker 2: who was English or someone who was French. But then

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Speaker 2: they were dealing with people that are Cree or people

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Speaker 2: that are on a shnobbe, and they have and all

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Speaker 2: of these different indigenous dialects and names and customs of

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Speaker 2: what a name is and what a name isn't. So,

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Speaker 2: for instance, when we we were trying to find Annie

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Speaker 2: and her family, Annie's husband who we later found I

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Speaker 2: have at least seven different spellings for his last name,

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Speaker 2: and so trying to find Annie and Samson's children as

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Speaker 2: a result of that, it's like it adds, you know,

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Speaker 2: with the digging, it's even harder and harder and harder

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Speaker 2: because you've got to look for so many different names

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Speaker 2: and in so many different locations as well. So yes,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff on ancestry because there's so

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Speaker 2: many families and so many people putting things and pulling

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Speaker 2: things together, and they can build their own trees. And

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Speaker 2: you could also sort of get in there and help

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Speaker 2: fill in blanks, but it's difficult when you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: indigenous people.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was my question.

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Speaker 3: Is you know, when I'm doing research, I can go

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Speaker 3: to newspapers dot com and look in the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 3: and me notorious for being inaccurated. You know, I have

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Speaker 3: done that with my own book and with some a

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Speaker 3: woman who asked me to help her a little bit

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Speaker 3: with her own family, where I've purposely misspelled the names

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Speaker 3: and have gotten just this treasure trove of information because

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Speaker 3: the newspapers weren't accurate. But I am also accustomed to

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Speaker 3: looking through papers from the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds,

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Speaker 3: where someone is almost always mentioned as a little slip

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Speaker 3: of a thing, mister who and missus who went to

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Speaker 3: go visit. Is that not the case for indigenous people

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Speaker 3: in Canada? Did they show up in newspapers under any

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Speaker 3: circumstances at all during this time period?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it did. And thanks for asking that question. But normally,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have a saying here amongst Indigenous journalists

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Speaker 2: that oftentimes in news media only covered us if we

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Speaker 2: were one of the four d's, drunk, drumming, dancing, or dead.

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Speaker 1: And that's pretty well true.

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Speaker 2: It was so hard to find any information out about

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Speaker 2: our families, and a lot of what was written in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds and the nineteen high it's in newspapers

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Speaker 2: as well, all the way up to the two thousands

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Speaker 2: in newspapers.

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Speaker 1: Is pretty racist.

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Speaker 2: Can be pretty racist too, right, And so we were

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Speaker 2: for the longest time on both sides of the border

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Speaker 2: not treated the same way, you know. And you could

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Speaker 2: see that through having two entirely different school systems for

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Speaker 2: children in Canada. We also had Indian hospitals, so segregated healthcare.

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Speaker 2: We have the Indian Act, right, so there was another

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Speaker 2: ring of our people. Isabelle Wilkerson is brilliant in her

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Speaker 2: book cast about this, about the different classes in America.

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Speaker 2: It's the same in Canada, right, And oftentimes it's easier

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Speaker 2: to find someone, it's easier to go back if you're

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Speaker 2: a British ancestry like I have some friends that can

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Speaker 2: go back and you know, my son, my son's dad

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Speaker 2: was I. They can go back and look and look

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Speaker 2: and find people, you know, from thirteen hundred and something,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just like, wow, on my mother's side of

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Speaker 2: the family, I can only go back to eighteen sixty two.

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Speaker 3: What about twenty three and me something like that? Is

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Speaker 3: that at all helpful for people?

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Speaker 1: Huge? Huge?

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Speaker 2: That is like and thanks for bringing that up. You know,

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Speaker 2: my cousin was so incredibly helpful to me. She said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: here's our profile and here are all the people that

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Speaker 2: were related to. And it was like a bomb growing

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Speaker 2: off in my mind because all the research I was doing,

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Speaker 2: and you know, finding that Annie Carpenter was originally you know,

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Speaker 2: Cree and from the James Bay coast and she had

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Speaker 2: all these brothers and sisters and then they all had families,

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Speaker 2: and that so many of our kids disappeared in Indian

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Speaker 2: residential schools. I can see all of these people I

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Speaker 2: was related to. And as a journalist, I've been covering

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Speaker 2: indigenous issues too in Ontario and in Canada, and there

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Speaker 2: was a lot of people there that I cover and

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Speaker 2: know and that I turn out that I'm related to.

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Speaker 2: So that was pretty mind blowing, and that was from

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Speaker 2: twenty three and me twenty three and me basically mirrored

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Speaker 2: the results of the research in my book that I

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Speaker 2: was finding and it solidified it and said, yeah, actually,

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Speaker 2: you're absolutely right, this is what happened.

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Speaker 3: Tell me if this makes sense the way they tell

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Speaker 3: the story, can we take whatever pieces of information that

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Speaker 3: are fact that you have records for that you've discovered,

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Speaker 3: and can we tell her story chronologically? Like you had mentioned,

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Speaker 3: you sort of started with the death certificate. And did

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Speaker 3: you say letters that uncle Hank had Was it letters

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Speaker 3: from Annie or to Annie or what was it?

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Speaker 1: No, we have nothing like that.

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Speaker 2: These were letters that my uncle Hank wrote to the

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Speaker 2: government and of Canada asking for any information he had

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Speaker 2: about his mom, where his mom was born, and also

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Speaker 2: about Annie. And the information he got from the Government

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Speaker 2: of Canada back to him and to the Province of

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Speaker 2: Ontario regarding his mom, Liz, Annie's daughter was that she

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Speaker 2: didn't exist. They had nobody on record that had this name. Well,

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Speaker 2: I knew that she existed because I exist. Uncle Hank

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Speaker 2: knew he had a mom, and so those were the

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Speaker 2: letters that he left. They were at letters that he

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Speaker 2: was writing to government institutions looking for his mom and

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Speaker 2: his grandma, his mom's identity really, because you find this

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Speaker 2: with a lot of people that have been through Indian

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Speaker 2: residential school and I'd like to say probably the same

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Speaker 2: with Indian boarding schools. What they experience in those schools

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Speaker 2: is so traumatic that they shut down that part of

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Speaker 2: their life, Like we have survivors that leave those schools

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Speaker 2: and never want to speak about it again, never want

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Speaker 2: to go back that way. And also too, no longer

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Speaker 2: believe that they are themselves indigenous, because they had it

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Speaker 2: sort of drummed into them that being an Indian was

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Speaker 2: good for nobody and that you had to assimilate into

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Speaker 2: the culture that was all around you. And so when

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Speaker 2: he wanted to talk to his mom about what she

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Speaker 2: had been through, she would not, for instance, and took

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Speaker 2: whatever happened to her to her grave. The book The Knowing, too,

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Speaker 2: it's almost like I'm having a conversation with Annie in

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Speaker 2: some spots, I'm asking her questions about why she made

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Speaker 2: the choices she did, or how she felt about when

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Speaker 2: we discovered that she had children besides my great grandma

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Speaker 2: that were just gone and disappeared into the school system,

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Speaker 2: how she felt about that. I mean, as a mom,

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Speaker 2: it's terrifying.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's start from the beginning. I know, is that

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Speaker 3: the census. Is that how you found out what year

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Speaker 3: she was born? You said that you found the eighteen

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Speaker 3: eighty one census, Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this said that she was ten years old. Then,

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Speaker 2: so we knew she was born in eighteen seventy one.

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Speaker 2: And then too, you know when you look as you

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Speaker 2: know you're a historian as well, like you know, you

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Speaker 2: look at that year and to figure out what was

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Speaker 2: happening in Canada at that time. Okay, well, first Canada

295
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Speaker 2: was just being born. The Indian Act, that racist peace

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Speaker 2: of legislation I was telling you about, came into law

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Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy six, so when she was five years old,

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Speaker 2: and right before that time, Sir John A. MacDonald, who

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Speaker 2: was the first Prime Minister of Canada, had just purchased

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Speaker 2: an absolutely massive territory of land called Rupert's Land that

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Speaker 2: actually encompassed six American Northern states, all the provinces from

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Speaker 2: basically Quebec over to British Columbia and into the Northwest Territory.

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Speaker 2: So it was like eight thousand square kilometers, a huge,

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Speaker 2: vast territory of land. Of course First Nations people were

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Speaker 2: already living on and had been living on forever, but

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Speaker 2: was sold quote unquote from the Hudson's Bay Company, which

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Speaker 2: is a giant fur trading outfit monopoly for two hundred years,

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Speaker 2: to Sir John A.

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Speaker 1: MacDonald.

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Speaker 2: And so what I did in the book was I

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Speaker 2: look back to see what was happening in Annie's life.

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Speaker 2: And while that sale of represent is so important as well,

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Speaker 2: was Annie's dad, Jean Baptiste, we discovered was a servant

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Speaker 2: of the HBC. So there were all of these forces

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Speaker 2: that were going on in North America at the time

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Speaker 2: of Annie's birth that would change her life in such

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Speaker 2: profound ways. Generations and generations of women that would go

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Speaker 2: from being partners with their husbands and in their communities

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Speaker 2: and having a voice and having an integral part at

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Speaker 2: that decision table with communities to being almost a commodity.

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Speaker 3: Now I had read you know, I think you mentioned

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Speaker 3: in the book that there were young children, who were

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Speaker 3: young girls from First Nation who sold off essentially to.

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Speaker 1: Marry these fur traders.

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Speaker 3: That's how you know, entrenched that industry was with the

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Speaker 3: government and you know everything else.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to talk a little.

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Speaker 3: I know that that might not be applicable directly to

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Speaker 3: any story, but you want to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for bringing that up, because I didn't mean to

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Speaker 2: do this until I actually sat down and started writing

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Speaker 2: the book and you know, did that okay, when was

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Speaker 2: she born? And then took a look at the forces

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Speaker 2: in her life that I started to realize that all

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Speaker 2: the history books I was reading as well, and the

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Speaker 2: first hand accounts, they were so different, like they were

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Speaker 2: interpreted in such a different way. I mean, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I read about constantly were these this

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Speaker 2: notion of quote unquote country wives and country why or

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Speaker 2: something we always heard about in Canadian history. I remember

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Speaker 2: hearing about it as a student. And these were First

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Speaker 2: Nations girls, so indigenous girls who were twelve, thirteen, fourteen,

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Speaker 2: and they were married off to European fur trader's career

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Speaker 2: de Bois, and the romantic idea was they were country wives.

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Speaker 2: You know, Oh, isn't this wonderful. She's helping this man

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Speaker 2: who's twenty or thirty years older than her to start

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Speaker 2: a family and you know, showing him what plans to

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Speaker 2: eat and which rivers to travel and everything else. And

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Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, you know what, twelve thirteen

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Speaker 2: or fourteen year old girl wants to be married off

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Speaker 2: to some sort of stinky man that's like twenty or

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Speaker 2: thirty years older than her. Leave her family, leave her language,

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Speaker 2: leave everything that she knows to be a wife at

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Speaker 2: such early age. And that to me was wrong, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that to me was the beginning I do believe

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Speaker 2: of trafficking if are women of indigenous women across North America,

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Speaker 2: and also too the crisis that we see on both

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Speaker 2: sides of the border again, which is murdered and messing

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Speaker 2: Indigenous women and girls. Women are just taken and used

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Speaker 2: and abused and then in some cases thrown away. I

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Speaker 2: could see the history of that, the beginnings of that

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Speaker 2: thought process and that othering of women in North America.

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Speaker 3: Was this an agreement with the indigenous families with the

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Speaker 3: European fur traders or how did this? They were just

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Speaker 3: simply taken and there was I guess I need to

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Speaker 3: understand the subservient part of this, what the relationship was

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Speaker 3: between First Nation people and you know, Hudson Bay and

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Speaker 3: in any of these other folks who were coming in.

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Speaker 2: So many layered responses to that, and it's a big question.

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Speaker 2: But I've been to the Hudson Bay Company archives and

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Speaker 2: they have these contracts. I've seen Annie's dad's contract with

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Speaker 2: the HBC that lists him as a servant of the HBC,

374
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Speaker 2: and it is wildly one sided. You know, basically, you're

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Speaker 2: selling your life to get paid for furs and for

376
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Speaker 2: labor and for basically anything that they asked you to

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Speaker 2: do for them. And when it came to women, another

378
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Speaker 2: troubling story. I mean, I could tell you about one

379
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Speaker 2: of the governors. So the Hudson Bay Company was ruled

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Speaker 2: by a system of governors, and one of the governors,

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Speaker 2: his name was Sir George Simpson, and he had at

382
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Speaker 2: least ten different country wives that he would have children

383
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Speaker 2: with and would discard them, and then he would ask

384
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Speaker 2: people to get rid of the women. He would try

385
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Speaker 2: and marry them off to other workers or other people,

386
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Speaker 2: or he would just walk away from them. You know, honestly,

387
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Speaker 2: who knows what was happening at the time and what

388
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: the contracts were, what the agreements were. I'm sure in

389
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Speaker 2: some cases it was an agreement that a family was making,

390
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: but was it in every single family circumstance and how

391
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Speaker 2: one sided were those agreements, how desperate were those families.

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Speaker 3: What were Annie's parents like? But they're both indigenous, is

393
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Speaker 3: that right?

394
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're both Cree. We call them in Innu, so

395
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: Inanu is Cree. And they were from James Bay and

396
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: Hudson Bay. So if you look at a map of

397
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Speaker 2: North America, what looks like a giant horseshoe, you know

398
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: over northern Canada, Ontario, that is Hudson Bay, named after

399
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Speaker 2: Henry Hudson, the same guy that founded the Hudson River.

400
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: He was an explorer of little repute in England. Nobody

401
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 2: really knew about him, but he made some major discoveries

402
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: quote unquote here in North America, and one of them

403
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 2: was Hudson Bay. And Hudson Bay is actually a giant seat.

404
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 2: It's a giant saltwater seat, and all along the coastline

405
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 2: is where Annie's people were from, and they have lived

406
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: there for generations and generations. So that was something I

407
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: discovered about Annie, which was interesting to me because that

408
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 2: is a different cultural group than what my maternal family

409
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: was already a part of.

410
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 1: And that's on a schnabe.

411
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Speaker 2: So there are different indigenous cultures all through Canada and America.

412
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Speaker 2: For instance, on a schnabe are all around the Great Lakes.

413
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: If you were to put a you draws circle right

414
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: around the Great Lakes north, south, east, and west, and

415
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: you will find on a shnabe people. And so my

416
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: mom's grandfather was on a schnabe and so we always

417
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: you know, just talked about being on a schnabe and

418
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: no one really talked about being crete. And there she was. Well,

419
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: so that was interesting to find that out. But just

420
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: finding the fact that we had all of these relations

421
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: that we just didn't know about was pretty wild. And

422
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 2: as you know from you know, twenty three and me

423
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: and from doing your own ancestry, that's something.

424
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating.

425
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 3: And then you start looking at your own family history

426
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: and it's like a patchwork quilt.

427
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: You're trying to put together all the pieces.

428
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: So now I think we're up to her being ten,

429
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: and you know, we know this from the census.

430
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: What do we know about her life?

431
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 3: What's the next piece of information, what's the next clue

432
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 3: you have about Annie?

433
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: Well, the next knowing her last name was a huge clue.

434
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: Carpenter and I actually turned to Facebook, believe it or not,

435
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: because a lot of Indigenous people use Facebook, Like we're

436
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 2: the only ones still on Facebook. I know everyone else

437
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: probably thinks it's like pass everything else, but every single

438
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: Indian is on Facebook, and we talk to each other

439
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 2: all the time. We use Facebook Messenger, we post way

440
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: too much about our lives sometimes, and you know, we

441
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: know each of this business through Facebook.

442
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,400
Speaker 1: It's a thing.

443
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: So that's where I turned. I you know, went to

444
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 2: Facebook like, hey, does anybody know any carpenters from the

445
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: James Bay Coast. And one of the first people to

446
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: reply was Paula Rickard and she is from a community

447
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: along the James Bay Coast called muse Cree First Nation.

448
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: And she said to me, I know the Carpenters. She goes,

449
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: They're in my family tree. She's a community historian and

450
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: she has thirteen thousand names in her family tree.

451
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: Wow.

452
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: So basically, if you are in a new if you're

453
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: a Cree and you're from the coast, she's got your

454
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: name and you know a part of your family. So

455
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: she was such a valuable resource. And she helped me

456
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: find Annie's marriage certificate to her first husband. And I

457
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: didn't know his name, I knew it was possible that

458
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: she was married, had a husband that wasn't who was

459
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: listed on that death certificate, And I was right, she

460
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: was and she was married at eighteen, and she found

461
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: Paula has the record of that marriage, and that was

462
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: a credible to me. So I could see who my

463
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: great great grandfather was. His name was Samson Themest Goose

464
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: and he was a hunter for the Hudson Bay Company.

465
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: Of course, so was this a contract? Is that what

466
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: that was?

467
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: No? But he was he was crete, Okay, so he was.

468
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how they met or you know, did

469
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 2: they meet at residential school at Indian residential school, did

470
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: they meet at a day school? Did they meet on

471
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: the coast somewhere? I have no idea, but Paula found

472
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: this record and in those church records she also found

473
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 2: that they had five other children.

474
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: And you all had only note about Liz, right about

475
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: Hank's mom.

476
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: That's right, Well, so this would be a child Liz

477
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: came from Samson.

478
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: Okay, This is all part of the mystery, right because

479
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: Liz always had the last name Gotier, and Anne Gotier

480
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: was on the death certificate.

481
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: Gotier was her married name.

482
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: But I always suspected that that wasn't her real last name,

483
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: that she had a different dad, And I was right.

484
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 2: Her dad was indeed Samson, this Cree hunter, and they

485
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 2: had Liz was child six with them.

486
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: There were five others.

487
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: And we knew nothing about them, what happened to them,

488
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: where they went to. I am still finding out information

489
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: about those five. One died of hooping cough when he

490
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: was just a young boy. But the rest I had

491
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: to try and hunt down and find which Indian residential

492
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: schools they were taken away to. One was taken across

493
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: the border of the provincial border into Manitoba to attend

494
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: a residential school there. It was remarkable. And then finding

495
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: their children, it's been a process.

496
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: Now it's a good time to introduce us to Indian

497
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 3: residential schools. And you also talk about Indian boarding schools.

498
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: You'd say taken so explain what all of this means.

499
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: And it sounds like Annie ended.

500
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: Up in one of these.

501
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: So Indian residential schools existed in Canada between the mid

502
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds to nineteen ninety six and when they were

503
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: first set up and when the Indian Act came into law.

504
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: Under the Indian Act, it was law to send your

505
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: children to these schools. These schools were funded by the

506
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: federal government and they were administered by the Christian churches.

507
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: These schools got more money the more students they had,

508
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: and so oftentimes children would be taken away and put

509
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: into the schools so the schools could have more money.

510
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: And also, as I said, it was against the law

511
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: not to have your child at the school for decades,

512
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: and so parents would be jail or face high fines

513
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: if they didn't give their children to the police officer

514
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: that came to the door and said, your kids have

515
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: to come with us, and they're going to Indian residential

516
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: school And at these schools you lived there. Many of

517
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: the schools didn't let the kids go home on the

518
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: summer or in the holiday period because they felt that

519
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: interaction with their family was detrimental to the work they

520
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: were doing, and that work was Christianizing the children and

521
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: assimilating them to become good British citizens, to become good Canadians.

522
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: In America, the Indian residential schools were called boarding schools

523
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: and industrial schools, and they were run by the War

524
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: Department because it was integral to clear people off the

525
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: land to make way for the settlers. So the War

526
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: Department ran the schools and they were doing the same thing.

527
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: Assimilation was the key religious entity were often involved as

528
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: teachers quote unquote. But the education in both of these institutions,

529
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: and they were institutions, were not as good as what

530
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: non Indigenous children received, and in many cases, children were abused,

531
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: they were neglected, they were you know, physically assaulted, sexually assaulted,

532
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: taken advantage of, and children died because they weren't given

533
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: proper health care or through incidents or accidents or violence.

534
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: And so all of these schools had graveyards. Like our

535
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: schools now, you don't build a school and build a graveyard,

536
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: but they did then and many of those graveyards are unmarked,

537
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: and that is why you hear so many people Indigenous

538
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: people on both sides of the border looking for the

539
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: relations that died at the schools and where they're buried.

540
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 3: You had talked about these records were of course held

541
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: by the church, right, not the Canadian government, and so

542
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: you've talked about the process that you had to go through.

543
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 3: The foyas I think is you know what you were

544
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 3: saying to get those kinds of records, Is there any

545
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 3: recourse to get these types of records from the church.

546
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: Is there now a more of an openness of the

547
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: churches in Canada that used to run these schools to

548
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: release these records.

549
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: It's gotten better. It has gone better. The fairest thing

550
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: I can say. I am so in my journalist's life.

551
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: This is all kind of exploding. The time I was

552
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: looking for Annie, at the same time, something happened at

553
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: the former grounds of the Kamloops Indian Residential School, which

554
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: is in Kamloops, British Columbia. There was this discovery of

555
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: a potential two hundred and fifteen graves of children, and

556
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: that made headlines all over the world. And that was

557
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: happening at the same time that I was looking for Annie,

558
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: And that discovery led to an investigation in all of

559
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: the one hundred and seventy Indian residential schools in Canada

560
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: looking at where the children buried, who went to these schools,

561
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: and so there was an opening up of records. People

562
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: started searching for records and we started to ask the

563
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: Catholic Church, the Catholic Church ran the most residential schools,

564
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: to help us find those records. That was a tough

565
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: go because there are many denominations in the Catholic Church.

566
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: Some are a little bit more forthcoming than others, and ultimately,

567
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: the Vatican has many records, and I was part as

568
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: a journalist. I went with the Assembly of First Nations

569
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 2: and the Mateen National Council and Nuit as well to

570
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: go to Rome, to go to the Vatican to ask

571
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: the Pope for an apology for the Catholic Church's involvement

572
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: with Indian residential school. And part of that was to say,

573
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: we'd like our records. We'd like for you to open

574
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: up your vaults and to give us your records. That

575
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: is still a work in progress.

576
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: I'm curious about what your emotional process is once you

577
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 3: find out that she's married and she's had these six children,

578
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: do you fill in the blanks? Because I assume you

579
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: don't know how the marriage went, how happy she was.

580
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: I mean, how would you know that just from government records?

581
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 2: Right?

582
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: So did you and your mom fill in the blanks

583
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: and just sort of think, I hope this was a

584
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 3: good marriage, I hope this wasn't abusive. Do you have

585
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: to do that or are you on such a mission

586
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: that you're just trying to gather records you're not coming

587
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: up with your own narrative as you move along in this.

588
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I did come up with my own narrative.

589
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for asking to frame me it that way, you know.

590
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: And I was talking to Annie in the book. You

591
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: can know in the book you can see a methodical

592
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: look at me at the records I would find, and

593
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: sometimes I would ask any questions, you know, and I

594
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: would make comments on you know. I hope that her

595
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: marriage to Samson was one of love and light, because

596
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: her life just went dark. You know, she had all

597
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: of these kids, she was married at eighteen, you know.

598
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: Was she as an eighteen year old girl who was

599
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: marrying like this, you know, handsome Greek hunter? You know,

600
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: was she thinking of this is wonderful, you know, here

601
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: we go, we're starting our life out. And I like

602
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: to think that that's what she was thinking, and that

603
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: this was years of happiness that she had, but they

604
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: would be short lived because her children would be taken

605
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: away and Samson dies. He dies and leaves her a

606
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: widow with the two remaining children she has, which is

607
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: my great grandma Liz and who I later found out

608
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: was Christina, her sister. She was with her brother. She

609
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 2: went with her brother after Samson died, and she started

610
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 2: using Samson's first name as her last name, which was

611
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: a custom when your husband dies. And it's not just

612
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 2: with our people too, I've heard that before as well.

613
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 2: It was some European families too, right, So suddenly she's

614
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: left a widower, her kids are gone, she's got two

615
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: wee ones with her, and she's with her brother.

616
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: And as a woman of.

617
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: Any race in North America at the turn of the

618
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: twentieth century, marriage was your only way of survival.

619
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 3: How old was she when Samson died? And do we

620
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: know why he died? Was natural causes, no idea, no idea.

621
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 3: Could not find anything.

622
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: You couldn't find his death certificate or anything.

623
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: Huh nothing, nothing, So and there were many of us looking.

624
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: We couldn't find what happened to him. And so there

625
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: she was and she was left with trying to survive

626
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: in this world. And we found her second marriage license.

627
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 2: She was married when she was thirty eight years old

628
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: for a second time, to a man named Joe Gautier,

629
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: hence the name Annie Gotier. Hence my great grandma Liz

630
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: having the name Gautier appear on all her documents. And

631
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: that's why the Canadian government said that she didn't exist

632
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: because there was no birth record of a Liz Goutier

633
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: because that wasn't her dad. So, you know, imagine being

634
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: married again in the late it was nineteen nine, I

635
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: believe it was that she got married and Annie would

636
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 2: have been thirty eight, thirty nine, which is old now

637
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: it's not, but it was then, and then she had

638
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: a daughter with Joe Goutier.

639
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: What does that signify to you within the culture or

640
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 3: in the time period. If a man is marrying a

641
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: woman who's thirty eight, who I would assume during that

642
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 3: time period was considered outside the range of a woman

643
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 3: who would be pregnant, what would be the motivation do

644
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: you think is that supporter? Do you have more optimism

645
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: about the second marriage because maybe it was for love?

646
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about that sometimes, but then I think

647
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: maybe not because he got rid of her oh quote

648
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: unquote right, So she was Annie. Like when we found

649
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: out more about this Ontario hospital, Annie was sent away

650
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: from her home and sent twenty five hundred kilometers so

651
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: about nineteen hundred miles south to this Ontario hospital. And

652
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: she was married to Joe got at the time and

653
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: I kind of look at it like, well, why didn't

654
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: he do anything to stop that? Did he go visit her?

655
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: And when she died, why didn't he bring her body

656
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: back home? Why did he leave her in an unmarked grave?

657
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: Which is what we found that Annie was in an

658
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: unmarked grave outside of this hospital. So that led me

659
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: to believe the marriage wasn't everything that it was cracked

660
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: up to be.

661
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: And when I say.

662
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: That, I mean, you know, my mother remembers Joe hearing

663
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: stories about Joe got and knowing Joe Goti is just

664
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: like she goes, Oh, he was so vibrant, you know,

665
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: she remembers this red beard. He was also not indigenous.

666
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: He was French Canadian. And I wonder too, you know,

667
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 2: did he take Annie for a wife because he needed

668
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: a woman to do things for him.

669
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure you know the answer to this,

670
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 3: but you know, husbands in the early nineteen hundreds, just

671
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: for no good reason, could have their wives institutionalized. I mean,

672
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 3: I can't even tell you how many stories I've written

673
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: about that. I'm glad you said that he was you

674
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: said French Canadian write Gotier, Yeah, because I was wondering

675
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 3: if a indigenous man would also have that ability or

676
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: would that have to be kind of an act of

677
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 3: the government, Right, He wouldn't have that, right, right, there'd

678
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 3: have to be something that would happen.

679
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Okay, well there you go, so he could have done

680
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: it himself. Yeah.

681
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: And you know in the nineteen thirties too, right, like

682
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 2: what you just said, you could be institutionalized for having

683
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: anxiety over not doing your homework. Yeah, I mean like

684
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 2: teenagers were institutionalised for that, for having period cramps and

685
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: being emotional, for having an affair, for refusing to speak English,

686
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: for instance, and just speaking on a schnabe or speaking

687
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: in a new like you know, speaking creed or speaking ujiboy.

688
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: I mean, there are a whole host of reasons, and

689
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: mental illness doesn't have to be one of them. So

690
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: it's that part is all pretty much a mystery as

691
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: to what happened to Annie, why she was put in

692
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: to this institution. You know, it was my mom that

693
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 2: said to me, he got rid of her.

694
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: Now, Paula, you said the woman you found on Facebook,

695
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 3: she's a gotier.

696
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: Is that what she said? That's how you? No, No,

697
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: she is.

698
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: Her last name's Rickard, but she has she is cree

699
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 2: and she has this giant family tree of all the

700
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: Cree families essentially from the James van Hudson Bay coast.

701
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: So she knew about Annie's family and she helped us

702
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: put the pieces together that way. About her Cree side, well,

703
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: she was all free. But Joe Gautier, we poked around

704
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: on him ourselves and pretty unremarkable. You know. He was

705
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: born in Quebec, came over to Ontario and some where

706
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 2: he crossed paths with Annie and they married.

707
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: Now this would be not her father but stepdad, stepdad,

708
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: that's who. But you always thought it was her father, right.

709
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: Always did.

710
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: And then I had to, you know, go in my

711
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 2: group chat with all my cousins and tell my mom,

712
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: oh yeah, you know that guy you always thought was

713
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: your great grandfather, he's actually not related to you, and

714
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: then tell all my family that as well. That was

715
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: something I had, this giant group chat with my cousins,

716
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: and I would every time I would find something, I

717
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: would tell them more because I wanted to be as

718
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: transparent as it possibly could with them. So and it

719
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: all didn't come out, you know, when the book was

720
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: finished as this giant Oh my gosh, right, you've got

721
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: to process this information.

722
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: So just to be clear, because this is actually pretty

723
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 3: shocking to me. You know, if we're thinking, and Uncle

724
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 3: Hank's thinking that his father is Joe, Joe is French Canadian,

725
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: his biological father is Free, right.

726
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 2: That would have been so Hank, that would have been

727
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: his grandpa, got it, Okay, he was thinking that was

728
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: his grandpa. So that's because Annie was married to Joe Gotier, right,

729
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: And it was Annie's daughter, Liz, So her last child

730
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: was Samson.

731
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: That was Hank's mom.

732
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: And she married a guy named Alfons Pishki who is

733
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: on a schnabe. He always knew, Hank knew that was

734
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: his dad, Okay, god grandfather that was this white guy

735
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: that actually wasn't his grandfather.

736
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,879
Speaker 3: Did Uncle Hank die before any of this came out?

737
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 3: He did, right, sadly, yes, you know, sadly, yes, you know.

738
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: And it was his research that like really gave me

739
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 3: the big push to find all this information. And he

740
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: spent years looking for news and information about his mom

741
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 3: and you know, where she was born and where Annie

742
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: was from and what happened to her, And well I

743
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: wish I could tell him, you know, but I like

744
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 3: to think that wherever he is his spirit can hear this?

745
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: Would that have changed anything for him? I don't know

746
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 3: if it's within the community. But to go from a

747
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 3: grandfather who's French Canadian to a biological grandfather who is,

748
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: you know, Indigenous, I don't know if there is that

749
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: sort of like a belief of you know, people who

750
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 3: have had in their history a mix of cultures versus

751
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 3: somebody who has maybe just had a mix of Indigenous

752
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 3: you know called Yeah, well it's.

753
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of the opposite, right, So he's like

754
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: all Indigenous and then there's this French Canadian grandfather. But

755
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: everyone sort of thought about that, and so, you know, yeah,

756
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: it was I'm sure at the time too, a lot

757
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: of Indigenous people were hiding, right, like, you know, hiding

758
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: in the bush, trying not to be noticed by government

759
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: officials because why because they took your kids away. Yeah, yeah,

760
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: you know, and if you had a quote unquote white relative,

761
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: sometimes that was like a bit of a shield.

762
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 3: What were the circumstances for Annie as far as you

763
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: would know, not her specifically, but what were asylums like

764
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 3: in the time period when she was in This was

765
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 3: Lake Shore Asylum, right.

766
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what we could find we could, We could

767
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: not find very much from the nineteen thirties, so I

768
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: went a little bit further afield. And I also had

769
00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: some help from doctor Jeffrey Rome, who studies this about

770
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: what asylums were like in you know, the history of

771
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: these places too.

772
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: They were awful. You know.

773
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen American horror story Asylum,

774
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: but my brain kept going back to that and thinking

775
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: about what she was living in. It must have been horrific,

776
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, being strapped to gurney's and tables and having

777
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: no freedom, no rights at all. I mean, she was

778
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: basically disposed of. I mean, did anyone go see her?

779
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: Did she have any freedom? Once she was in that place?

780
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 2: She never left. She was there for seven years, eight months,

781
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 2: and twenty eight days, That's what it says in her

782
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: death certificate. And then she ended up dying of gangreen

783
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 2: of the intestines and pulmonary disease as well. Right, that's

784
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: what they said, Right, that's what it said. Do you

785
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: believe that what is gangreen of the intestine sounds like

786
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: a horrible, awful way to die, a painful way to go.

787
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 2: And they listed chronic mania as well, and that for

788
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,320
Speaker 2: what I understand is kind of a catch all phrase

789
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: for any kind of illness that could possibly be. In

790
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, but electroshock therapy was starting to be

791
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: used in the asylum she was in, and I wondered

792
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: about that too. Did that happen to Annie? And you

793
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: also had to work in these like giant laundry rooms

794
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: where they'd be like no ventilation if you were a woman,

795
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: or in big kitchens, and the abuse there would have

796
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: been wicked, yeah, you know, and no recourse.

797
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: What age was she when she died? According to the

798
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: death certificent.

799
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: They said seventy one, and I think it was sixty seven.

800
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 2: So she was put in the asylum when she was

801
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: about sixty years old. And I'm in my mid fifties.

802
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot too. It's like, oh,

803
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: she was just a little bit older than me.

804
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: But she was married to Joe for twenty two years

805
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 3: before she went in.

806
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: Is that right? When doing the mouth right? Yeah? Good math.

807
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So everybody, all of the kids had gone, but

808
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 3: we don't know did they go to the Indian you know,

809
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: residential schools and then disappeared there or did they spread

810
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: out across Canada?

811
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: Did they come to a may We don't know, except for.

812
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 2: Liz Well, Christina, the girl I was telling you about

813
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: that when Annie was a young widower and she just

814
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: had these two wee ones with her. We found Christina.

815
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: Paula really was the one that found and traced her life.

816
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: She had been sent to something called Elkhorn Indian Residential School,

817
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: which is on the Prairies on the Manitoba Saskatchewan border.

818
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: And we were able to piece her story together through

819
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: government records. We had something called Indian Agents here in Canada.

820
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: It kept track of all of us Indians, and they

821
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: wrote letters about Christina, about Christina having a baby and

822
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 2: they named her Christina too, and that baby got sent

823
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: to an Indian residential school in Ontario, and so we

824
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: were able to piece together her life. We were also

825
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: able to piece together John's life. John was Annie and

826
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: Samson's son and he died when he was twelve years old,

827
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: literally in the middle of Ontario, northern Ontario, in a

828
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: tiny little place called Bisco. And he was a quote

829
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: unquote labor at age twelve. So we were able to

830
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 2: find that death certificate. But had he been at an

831
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: Indian residential school? Was he a runaway. Why was he

832
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: out there in the middle of nowhere by himself as

833
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 2: a laborer? What was he doing? Was he there on

834
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: his own?

835
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: Accord? Like it?

836
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 2: Just like the more things you find out sometimes through

837
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 2: the records, the more questions you.

838
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: Have what ultimately happens with Annie's remains. You said that

839
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 3: they were located right at the asylum with its last

840
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 3: the final name it had.

841
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so then.

842
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 3: Are you able to move her or what's the last

843
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 3: step for you with this?

844
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: Well, it's it was pretty crazy. So I had lived

845
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: in Toronto my whole life, and turns out Annie was

846
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: here all along. The cemetery is in the West End Toronto,

847
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: and she is in a giant unmarked grave where we

848
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: found there are fifteen hundred and eleven people there. There

849
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: are only grave markers on ten percent of those graves,

850
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: so about one hundred and fifty four of them have

851
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: grave markers. The rest it's just this giant field and

852
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: that is where the patients were buried. And finding Annie,

853
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 2: we know the plot number and so we can sort

854
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: of figure out where she is in this giant area.

855
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: But we also discovered there were thirty two other First

856
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: Nations people in that unmarked grave area as well. So

857
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 2: finding Annie he led to finding thirty two other First

858
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: Nations people and we're in the process of, you know,

859
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 2: trying to locate their families and tell them, Look, you've

860
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 2: got a relation here. It's a hard call now, right, Like,

861
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: what do you do now that she's we know where

862
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: she is. Do we leave her there? Do we send

863
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 2: her home? And where would home be? Would it be

864
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: back up to Fort Albany? Would it be outside of

865
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: Thunder Bay to where she was living, you know before

866
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: she was sent away, taken away? Where did we put her?

867
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

868
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 2: And also too to disturb her after all this time,

869
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: and yet you know I can see her here.

870
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: It's a hard call.

871
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 3: I know that there has been a movement here in

872
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 3: the United States that I know has been going on

873
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 3: forever for in Native Americans, for Indigenous people here to

874
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 3: be able to reclaim remains.

875
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: What do you do with someone who you know, ideally you.

876
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 3: Would bury in a very particular kind of way, but

877
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 3: you know now that she's been buried, do you disturb

878
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 3: what's the best thing for Annie?

879
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 2: At this point, we have held one ceremony for Annie

880
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: so far, and you.

881
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: Know, when we first went out there.

882
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: When my mom, my daughter and I first went out

883
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: there to see Annie, we held our own little ceremony

884
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: for her. You know. We brought our sacred medicines and

885
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: we we smudged the ground in the area for Anny,

886
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 2: you know, and let's let her know that we were there.

887
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: We also held a ceremony with many of the leaders

888
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 2: from Northern Ontario, from my nation, and that was pretty

889
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: huge for us. We all went out there and actually

890
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 2: the Kookpie of Kamloops to kum Loops, so where the

891
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: Kamloops Indian Residential School is, she was also with us.

892
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: And we drummed and we sang and we said prayers

893
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: for Annie, and that was something. And now, yeah, my

894
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 2: cousins and I like one cousin in particular, he's he's

895
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: an elder, so he in our community is you know,

896
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 2: someone we look up to and ask for spiritual guidance.

897
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 2: And we're talking about okay, well what do we do now?

898
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 2: Do we take a vote? Do we talk about this?

899
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: And so that's the question.

900
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 3: Now, is there a way to get markers once we've

901
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 3: hopefully identified some of these people, can you create this

902
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 3: sort of own graveyard that's actually something that acknowledges who's

903
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 3: buried there where people can come visit. I mean, actually

904
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 3: something formal that people can see who is there, I hope.

905
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: So, you know, I really do. The Canadian government did

906
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: something called the Last Post with soldiers who were lying

907
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: in on Mark Graves from the First World War to

908
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 2: commemorate the ending of the First World War. And I

909
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: think about that sometimes, and I think about we should

910
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 2: have something similar, just a little plaque with people's names,

911
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: right that died in these institutions unwillingly we're taken away.

912
00:52:59,640 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: You know.

913
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: We've got all of these kids too there and on

914
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 2: Mark Graves all over Turtle Island. Whether we've got to

915
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: find some way of commemorating them. If not a plaque

916
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 2: for everyone, what about some kind of a statue or something,

917
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, I think about that a lot. And

918
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: I think with Annie as well. Somebody in one of

919
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 2: our communities said to me, maybe we leave Annie there

920
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: and we put up a monument and so people could

921
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: come and know that this is where she is and

922
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: this is her story. Yeah, and people will see it

923
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: because it's where she's buried, where this giant graveyard on

924
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: Mark Graveyard is. It's right off one of the busiest

925
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 2: highways in Toronto, and Toronto is a city of over

926
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: three million people, and so it's literally sounds of a

927
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: giant ikea.

928
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'll try to bring this back to

929
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,919
Speaker 3: the purpose of you doing this. You know, I talked

930
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: to my own kids. I have fifteen year old twin girls,

931
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 3: and I talk to them about kind of a legacy

932
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: and why I do what I do. And for me,

933
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 3: my legacy is not true crime or anything that I'm

934
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 3: doing now. It's really to try to be the best

935
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 3: parent I can be so that they will be the

936
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 3: best parents they can be and their kids will be

937
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 3: because then you're sending out all of these people for

938
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 3: generations who will have a positive impact on the world.

939
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: That is my goal instead of generation wealth, It's like

940
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 3: generational positivity and having an impact. And I just think,

941
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,479
Speaker 3: you know, with Annie, I don't know what she thought

942
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 3: about herself, and I know you've thought about that, like,

943
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 3: does she think that this is this is it? This

944
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 3: is what my life has come to. I don't have

945
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 3: my children anymore. I'm in an asylum. I don't know

946
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 3: if you know she had good marriages or not. Never

947
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 3: a million years, I'm sure would she have thought that,

948
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 3: you know, who knows what happened to the other kids,

949
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 3: but this one child, Liz, would just eventually end up

950
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 3: with you, who is trying to make an impact for

951
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 3: you know, a nation of people. So that's a legacy,

952
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 3: you know.

953
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: Like which thank you, Yeah, it is.

954
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: I think at that sometimes, you know, and you know

955
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 2: what runs through our blood, right, all the women that

956
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 2: came before us, and we are you know, as mothers,

957
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 2: as women. I mean, we're here because of the strengths

958
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: of our mothers and our grandmothers and our great grandmothers

959
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 2: and all the whoors, the love, the hardship, the pain,

960
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 2: the beauty that they live through. But we survived and

961
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: we do that to tell their stories. I believe that

962
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: to be true.

963
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

964
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

965
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 3: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

966
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 3: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

967
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 3: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

968
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 3: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

969
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 3: This has been an exact write production. Our senior producer

970
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 3: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

971
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 3: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

972
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 3: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

973
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 3: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

974
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 3: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold

975
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 3: more and if you know of a historical crime that

976
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 3: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

977
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 3: email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also

978
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words