1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt. They called 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: me Ben when we're joined with our super producer Paul 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: Michig control decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: here that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: We've been going down some dark alley ways figuratively speaking 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: or conversationally speaking in the past few episodes, and you know, honestly, 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: we're getting to a point where maybe we should do 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: something a little more lighthearted in the future. Well that's 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: not true. We have a lighthearted interview for the Legend 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: of Cocaine Island that's out now by the time you 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: hear this. So that's that's a fun listen, right right. Yeah, 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: we're We've got stuff unicorns don't want you to know 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: on the slate. Okay, yeah, Well it's weird because I 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: was thinking I was reading something about unicorns. Oddly enough, 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: now that you mentioned this, where wherein someone who was 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: a zoologist of some sort or another said, based on 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: the fact that they had a single horn, and based 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: on the fact that was positioned in the center of 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: their forehead facing forward, what that tells us about their behavior. 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: It's very similar to rhinos. So unicorns, if they did exist, 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: would probably be belligerent, antagonistic animals, capable of great violence. 26 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: They'd be and that's something unicorns don't want you to know. 27 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: That's not profile. Yeah, exactly. All the glitter and all 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: the shin nous and their weird thing with virgins. Have 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: you seen that movie Legend with very very young Tom 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: Cruise and a very awesome Tim Curry, very awesome Tim 31 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: Curry wearing a giant rubber satan suit, and there's a 32 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: whole thing where they like the unicorns play a big 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: part of that, very very important. There's also the animated 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: The Last Unicorn, which is really sad. Yeah. Yeah, I 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: was thinking about the Bree Larson, her directorial debut, something 36 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: about the Unicorn Store, something to that. If it's Netflix now, 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: it does not seem to have anything to actually do 38 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: with unicorns. Just putting that out, Well, thank you guys, 39 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: you've saved me a few hours. It has absolutely nothing 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: to do with unicorns, the healthcare in the prison systems. 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: So the US health care system is by any measure, 42 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: matter how you look at it, no matter what your 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: opinion is, and everybody has opinions about this, By any measure, 44 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: it's anomalous. One of the world's wealthiest countries with one 45 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: of the world's worst performing healthcare sticks. You know, like, 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: not in comparison to very very impoverished countries so much 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: as in comparison to other countries we would consider pure 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: countries economically, right, And there's the one we all agree 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: on is that this thing is rife with problems. It's 50 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: lousy with problems and things that don't work, and it's 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that there is a ton of 52 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: money wrapped up in this issue. Uh, doctors make a 53 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: ton of money, hospitals, of course, Insurance companies make tons 54 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: of money. There's a lot writing on this, and that 55 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: means there's also extensive propaganda and play. We'll hear some 56 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: people say, well, the entire problem with US healthcare is 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: that it is to a great degree run by privatized 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: insurance companies. That they're the root of the problem as 59 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: they continually put profits over the greater good. For some people, 60 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: that's fighting words. For other people, it's like, you know, shrug, 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: dot gift. That's what companies do, that's what for profit 62 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: businesses do. Other people say, no, it's broken. But the 63 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: problem is not honest, red blooded American business. It's that 64 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: the government is involved. And every time Uncle Sam is 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: involved in some thing, uh, it's gonna be ruinous because 66 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: the government is inefficient and corrupt. Sometimes that's a sincere argument. 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a Star of the Beast argument. Depends on 68 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: where you hear about. And today's episode is not about 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: that cartoonishly tragically comic state of medical care in the 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: US overall. That's probably its own podcast. Today's episode instead 71 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: is about one of the worst case scenarios for anyone 72 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: who lives in this country and ever get sick or 73 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: ever needs some sort of medical treatment. Healthcare in prison. 74 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: Yeah to two things you don't wanna be a part of. 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Sick and incarcerated. So just to get a better understanding 76 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: of this problem, it's best to start with some statistics. 77 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: We all love those, So let's look at just the 78 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: U S population in general. As of the population in 79 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: this country was three hundred and twenty seven point two 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: million human beings. Twenty eight point seven percent of the 81 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: population is under the age of eighteen, so you know, 82 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: it's almost a third of the people are very very young. 83 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: About fifteen point six of the population is over the 84 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: age of sixty five. And then that leaves the people 85 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: who are not miners, you know, who are eighteen and 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: they're also not they're above eighteen below senior citizen, which 87 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: are going to be the primary, the primary age range 88 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: for people who are incarcerated, right right, the regular, the 89 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: regular Joe's and james. Uh. This is interesting that fifteen 90 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: point six percent number for elderly and senior citizens makes 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: sense because, due in large part to the way the 92 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: health care system here does or does not work, we 93 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: have a disturbingly low life expectancy compared to other what 94 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: are called first world countries or other developed countries is 95 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: a better phrase. So that's that's the population by the numbers. 96 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: What about what about the medical stuff? Do we have 97 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: any stats for that? Yeah, So the US spend is 98 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: way more on healthcare than any other nation on this 99 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: here globe UM ten thousand dollars per person, which amounts 100 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: nearly eighteen percent of g d P, which seems bonkers 101 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: to me. Um. Government funded Medicare and Medicaid account for 102 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: more than a dollar of every three dollars of US 103 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: healthcare spending, and a dollar every four dollars in the 104 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: federal budget. The entire federal budget, which we know is 105 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: a is like seems like one of those imaginary numbers, 106 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: you know, the trillion. Yeah, it's largely. It is largely 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: a series of which is promises, increasingly ambitious pitches I 108 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: was gonna say from Congress. And and it's been growing, right, 109 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: it's been growing Medicare at least at more than twice 110 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: the rate of inflation. It's forecast to accelerate as what 111 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 1: we call the baby boomer generation ages ages increasingly into 112 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: that elderly demographic. So that's one thing upon on which 113 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: we cannot blame millennials. Sorry, I know some of us 114 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: in the audience dig that. But and then that's just 115 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: for Medicare. That's that's the part that the government helps 116 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: out with, right, And that's for people who do have Medicare, 117 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: you're considered to have healthcare. There are a lot of 118 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: other healthcare comes from employers, kind of like what we 119 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: have sitting in this room, including Mission Control, over there. 120 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, matt Um. Private health insurance covered more 121 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: people than the government does. So you pay like think 122 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: of think of every country as a club. We've said 123 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: this before in previous episodes. The concept of taxis, the 124 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: concept of taxation is at heart in a very oversimplified way, 125 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: it's the same thing as paying dues to a club, 126 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: country club perhaps, sure, a country club, um, a chess 127 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: club that has a nice HQ if they have those. 128 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: The the ideas you you pay into this thing, and 129 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: because you've paid into this thing, you get certain rights. 130 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: So you're a country club of golf club whatever. Uh. 131 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: That goes to the maintenance of the place, but it 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: also goes to the maintenance of things you use. So 133 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: the argument that people will have is that, well, if 134 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: you pay taxes here in a country, then those taxes 135 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: should guarantee some of your rights, guarantee some maintenance. Uh. 136 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: And then arguably they could be in a situation where 137 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: they pay to help keep you alive or at least 138 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: make your existence a little bit less painful than it 139 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: would be without health insurance. Again, not everybody agrees with that. Uh. 140 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: A lot of people think privatization is the answer. So 141 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: that's why employer based coverage covers more than half of 142 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: the population for part or all the calends or year. 143 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: And then there's Medicaid nineteen point four percent, Medicare sixteen 144 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: point seven, what's called direct purchase, I go out and 145 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: buy my own stuff sixteen point two percent of people 146 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: either thought that was a good idea or were forced 147 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: to do it through things like Cobra right, or military 148 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: coverage four point six. You're gonna lay your life on 149 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: the line for a country. The least we can do is, 150 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, not put you in the poorhouse if you 151 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: have cancer, although that still happens. But this number doesn't 152 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: answer everything, because despite all these different kind of partial 153 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: band aids for keeping people alive and healthy, twenty eight 154 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: point five million people in this country have no form 155 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: of health insurance whatsoever, all the year, all the livelong day. Yeah. 156 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: Eight at least that's of as of right that number. 157 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: That number may have gone up or down a little bit, 158 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: but it hasn't moved a ton yet. It may very 159 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: well in the in the near future, in the next 160 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: three ten years. Right. Not to mention the fact that 161 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how this figure is in the puzzle here, 162 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: but I think it's fascinating and it certainly should be 163 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: part of the conversation. It costs an average of thirty 164 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: one thousand dollars per inmate per year to incarceerate an individual. 165 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: It's like taxpayer money. So it's just crazy to me, like, 166 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: if we're paying that much to incarcerated person to get 167 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: people outside of the prison system, we wouldn't even consider 168 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: spending that much on them and their well being. It 169 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: is it is cheaper, or it has been for a 170 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: number of years. It is cheaper for the United States, 171 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: on a state and federal level to send someone to 172 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: community college for two to four years and pay for 173 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: their dorm or their apartment. Then it is to incarceerate them. 174 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: And that's something I learned via a little wane originally 175 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: true story, but yeah, but it's true. It's it's we 176 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: can get into the political reasons for that, because the 177 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: argument here doesn't bear out when you look at the math. 178 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: It bears out when you look at what people like 179 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: voting for right, which is which is a little bit 180 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: of a simplified way to say it, but it's true, 181 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: and it's a big business. The US locks up a 182 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: lot of people. I was thinking about this earlier. I 183 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: was gonna say they lock up tons of people, and 184 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: then I read back through it, and it's true. If 185 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: you do the math on how much a single person weighs, 186 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: and you do the math on how many people are 187 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: locked up, we are literally locking up tons and tons 188 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: of people, tons of human flesh. Our prison population rate 189 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: is roughly seven hundred per one hundred thousand. That makes 190 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: it the second highest incarceration rate of two and twenty 191 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: two countries tracked by the Institute for Criminal Policy Research, 192 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: and that is such a large net to cast the 193 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: i c PR study right now, the u n doesn't 194 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: recognize two and twenty two countries, so they gave everybody 195 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: a chance. This country locks up a half million more 196 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: than China, and that has a population five times larger 197 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: than the US. This country, and this is a statistic 198 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: that many of us have heard before, and I wish 199 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't still true. This country holds twenty five percent 200 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: of the world's prison population. Twenty Yeah. It's worse though, 201 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: because the statistic that follows right after, we're only five 202 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: percent of the people in the world, which means that 203 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: if you think about it, just from living here, you 204 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: have one of the highest chances in the world of 205 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: going to prison. Yeah, okay, so what was it we said, 206 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: three d and twenty seven something million people in the 207 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: United States. Well, the American criminal justice system holds within 208 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: it incarcerated human beings two point three million people. That's crazy. 209 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: There are and it holds them in over seventeen hundred 210 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: state prisons. There are a hundred and two federal prisons, 211 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: and then eighteen over eight hundred juvenile correctional facilities. Then 212 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: there are also like that. Okay, and that's just starting right. 213 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: Then you go down another level. You get to the 214 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: local jails that wouldn't even be really called a prison, 215 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: just a jail holding cell kind of thing. There are 216 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: three thousand, one hundred and sixty three of those, and 217 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: there are also eighty Native American like they're called Indian 218 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: country jails. Um, well that's not even talked, dude. We're 219 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: not even thinking about military prisons, the brig Yeah, and 220 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: the the detention facilities like immigration facilities, the bizarre and 221 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: labyrinthine network of detention centers for ice. Yeah, that's that's 222 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: that's a whole one that our conversation there, one of 223 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: which was famously until quite recently a series of fences 224 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: set up under a bridge. Yeah. Uh, civil commitment centers, 225 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: state psychiatric hospitals, which are still around, mostly privatized, but 226 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: still exists to some degree. You can be held without 227 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: against your will in those facilities and prisons in US 228 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: territories which occupy and even or uh murky legal space, 229 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: including Guantanamo, including Guantanamo. Yeah, every year, six hundred and 230 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: twenty six thousand people walk out of prison, but they 231 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: go to jail ten point six million times each year. 232 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: Jail in prison are as as many people will, as 233 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: many people attest. Jail in prison are two very different beasts. 234 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: Jail churn is pretty high because most people in jail 235 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: have not been convicted. They're just waiting. Yeah, they've been arrested. 236 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: They're desperately using that um that trope and fiction. There 237 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: one phone call to get a bail bondsman, or to 238 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: get some money together to get out before they have 239 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: to go to trial, or in many, many, many, many cases, 240 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: they are too poor. And you know, uh, justice is 241 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: a slot machine that only takes dollars. So if jail 242 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: is like a holiday, in prison is like a living 243 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: community of some kind like like an apartment building. Yeah yeah, 244 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: so so again, jail is like kind of like a 245 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: slot machine that only takes dollars. So other people are 246 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: too poor to make bail and they have to stay 247 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: behind bars until their trial. And we've all seen these stories, right, 248 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: There's somebody who is arrested for something, maybe it's a 249 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: case a wrong place, wrong time, but they can't make bail, 250 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: and so they're in jail for what months, and then 251 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: they go to trial and the judges like, who is 252 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: this guy? Not to mention there in jail because they've 253 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: done something, and then they can't make bail, so then 254 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: they lose their jobs because they're sitting in jail, and 255 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: it just creates this cycle of being able to not 256 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: afford anything that the system voice upon you, especially then 257 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: once you are convicted and then have some kind of 258 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, fee schedule that you have to deal with, 259 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: but you've lost your job and become unemployable again probably 260 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: another conversation, but it's it's a problematic cycle, and it's 261 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: this number might surprise from folks. Met You recently gave 262 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: us the statistics of some people in jail, but of 263 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: those people in jail, only about a hundred and fifty 264 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: thousand or so on any given day have actually been convicted, 265 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: and most of them, uh to take your holiday in 266 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: comparison are ear the apartment comparisons. They're they're generally serving 267 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: sentences that are less than a year, and almost half 268 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: a million people are locked up purely because of drug offenses. 269 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: So mainstream media, right, we all, we all know and 270 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: love our favorite fiction films and stories, often depicts the 271 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: incarcerated population in some in some wild extremes. Right there, 272 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: there there two or three big stereotypes we see people 273 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: incarcerated there. I either woefully disenfranchised, you know what I mean, 274 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: The system is broken. It crushed my life, you know, 275 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: I got arrested wrongfully, but I lost everything while I 276 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: was waiting for my day in court. Or there might 277 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: be the other extreme where these people are like absolute 278 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: suicide squad level monsters and the state is being too 279 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: nice by putting these people in time out for life 280 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: and should just kill them. And then you'll see things 281 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: like red and Shawshank redemption right, who who has been? 282 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: Who has attained wisdom or higher enlightenment despite their physical 283 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: confines and stuff like that. But regardless of how these 284 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: people are depicted in fiction, life on the inside is 285 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: not like what you'll see in a lot of those things, 286 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Like what's that HBO series OZ got praised for being 287 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: a little more realistic than most. Yeah, that show is 288 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: insanely good. It was also like one of the early 289 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: big HBO dramas, So it has this look of like 290 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: video where it looks very real, almost like you're watching 291 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: a play. But it's like, it's I love everything about 292 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: that show. It's it's super great. It does I mean, 293 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a little data because it's super square, 294 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: like the framing or whatever. And also some of the 295 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: some of the performances are a little over the top, 296 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: but no, the stuff that it covers, it's very theatrical, 297 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: but it's also very ground in reality, sort of a 298 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: harbinger of the gritty realism of Orange is the New Black. So, 299 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: regardless of uh, any of us listening now, regardless of 300 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: our stance on the prison system, whether you think it's 301 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: chugging right along, whether it's the best we can do, 302 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: even if it's not perfect, whether you think it's broken, 303 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: whether you think it's a system meant to oppress certain 304 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: demographics here in this country. It's clear that crime does 305 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: continue inside the walls of penitentiaries, their gangs everywhere. People 306 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: love all the vices still, you know what I mean, drugs, 307 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: sensual pleasure, old fashioned violence, and the chances of that 308 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: kind of violence are always somewhere in the cards. But 309 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: the activist policymakers and others, there is another criminal in 310 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: the mix here. And it's not a criminal that you're 311 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: going to see on America's Most Wanted. It's not a 312 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: criminal that you will see in a highly publicized O. J. 313 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: Simpson level trial, right, No, you would see them in 314 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: the ads in between those programs. That's right, we're talking 315 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: about insurance companies. Wait, our insurance companies criminals. You might 316 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: be saying, kind of, let's have a word from our sponsor. 317 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So well, let's call this 318 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: part healthcare, profit and public perception. In the Bureau of 319 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: Justice Statistics released a study and they said that nearly 320 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: half of the people held in jails suffer from some 321 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: sort of mental illness, and more than a quarter have 322 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: a severe condition such as bipolar disorder. And again, as 323 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: we as we noted with jail, many of the people 324 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: in jail are just waiting their churning through. They haven't 325 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: been convicted and sentenced to their you know, to that 326 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: misdemeanor that's less than a year. But in the same year, 327 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the Bureau reported that about two thirds of sentenced inmates 328 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: in jail suffer from drug addiction or dependency, and that 329 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: that conclusion they made this is the scary part. It 330 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: comes from numbers pulled in two thousand and seven to 331 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, which means that largely does not 332 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: account for the opioid crisis. Wow. Yeah, Wow, that's ah, 333 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: that's tough. Well, well, here's the other thing. So you've 334 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: got a life sentence, let's say you're going to be 335 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: in prison for a long time. You're also going to 336 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: be dealing with just what happens to your body as 337 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: you're getting older. Just age related stuff, right, like all 338 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: kinds of diseases, all kinds of stuff that you need 339 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: medication for, stuff that you need maybe even some I 340 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: don't I don't know, recovery, physical recovery from and work on. 341 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: And these people are dealing with that. There's also you know, 342 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: we talked about the addiction, the mental illness, and when 343 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: you put these together, kind of as you're saying, ben 344 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: getting older, being addicted to something, probably maybe continuing to 345 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: be addicted while you're in while you're incarcerated. Uh, and 346 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 1: then also you know, having to deal with the mental illness. 347 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: It all kind of just adds up into this pretty 348 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: brutal thing where you're gonna be probably experiencing withdrawal symptoms, 349 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: especially early on in your situation there. Um So, like 350 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: I guess the first year of prison, which is what 351 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: you're saying, a lot of people actually only spend about 352 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: a year and there it can be extremely rough on 353 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: your health. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean imagine if you are, 354 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: if you are encountering withdrawal symptoms from some sort of 355 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: drug addiction, and the medical staff on hand says we're 356 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: not going to give you your drug of choice. But 357 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: then another inmate titles up to you, maybe in the yard, 358 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: and says, hey, I can help you out if you 359 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: do something for me. Dangerous times right, And now, yes, 360 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: we can take a moment to talk about the politics here, 361 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: because I'm sure as we're as we're exploring this, a 362 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: lot of us are thinking, well, people aren't in prison 363 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: for good behavior. No one has ever helped an old 364 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: lady across the street so many times that they got 365 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: put in jail, you know what I mean. You don't 366 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 1: go there for being an honor student in terms of 367 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: like civic mindedness. So there's this kind of callous or 368 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: colder argument and says, well, why should we take care 369 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: of these people if they are a detriment to society? 370 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: Because of that attitude, Because of that, you know, that 371 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: school of thought, it's very difficult for politicians to argue 372 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: in favor of advocacy for people who have medical conditions 373 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 1: while they are incarcerated, you know what I mean. Like 374 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: back in the back in the eighties especially, it was 375 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: political suicide to say we should still treat human beings 376 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: as humans, because then it would be immediately equated with 377 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: being quote unquote soft on crime and the Another another 378 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: difficulty there a twists there is that it's very difficult 379 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: in many cases for felons to vote. So until the 380 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: demographics that are far more likely to get arrested and 381 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: far more likely to serve longer sentences are voting in 382 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: larger proportionate numbers than politicians aren't going to go out 383 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: of their way to be I mean, largely, it's true 384 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: it's sad and it's kind of disgusting, but they're not 385 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: going to go out out of the way to represent 386 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: someone who they don't see as capable of handing a 387 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: benefit to them. I mean, it's huge downfall of our species. Right, 388 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: Everything is quid pro quo and stuff you should know 389 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: as a great episode about how altruism doesn't really exist, 390 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: but no one wants to hear that. That's depressing, right, Yeah, 391 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: so well it really fast. I just want to talk 392 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: about something with you guys. Uh, something I don't know 393 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: if this even really fits in the show, but something 394 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: I think we can apply to this is the fact 395 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: that unless you have experienced something in your life or 396 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: you know someone directly who has experienced something, it's very 397 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: difficult to have true empathy about a situation. UM. And 398 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: I take this too to the concept of quitting smoking 399 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: or attempting to quit smoking. Now, just just hear me 400 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: out really fast. For a lot of people who have 401 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: never been addicted to something like nicotine and attempted and 402 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: fail to quit that substance or something like that, UM, 403 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people will have, at least I've noticed 404 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: in my experience, UM, very negative thoughts on alternatives to 405 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: quitting smoking or even or you know, other things like that. Um, like, 406 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: they have an immediate negative reaction to something like that 407 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: unless you are someone who has actually attempted and failed 408 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: to do something like quitting smoking, And so I wonder 409 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: if it's the same thing with the prison system and 410 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these other things where unless you have 411 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: that direct experience with it, it's very difficult to even 412 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: see it outside of the negative context which is already 413 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: built up around it societally experiential knowledge, right, like the 414 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: like how the stem cell conversation changed when people who 415 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: were politicians opposed to stem cell research realized that benefits 416 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: a good have for people that they personally knew, right, Yeah, 417 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: I mean I think so, I mean even CBD oil, Yes, 418 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: absolutely know. I think it's it's weird because here in 419 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: here in Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia, where we record this podcast, 420 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: uh one, were regardless of where you fall in drug criminalization. 421 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: I thought it was hilarious when we had some we 422 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: had some politicians when the CBD UM the Medical Medicinal 423 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: CBD Bill or whatever was called, was first past, the 424 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: politicians who approved of it spent the majority of their 425 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: time assuring everyone that no one would enjoy it, Like, 426 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: don't worry, no one is gonna have fun. This is 427 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: just for people with epilepsy, So you're sure you cannot 428 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 1: get high. If I thought people would have anything like 429 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: a good time on this, I would be burning down 430 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: the capital, you know what I mean? Like, I'm still 431 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: mad that people foxtrot is burning down the capital. When 432 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: you smoke a bunch of weed in the capitol a 433 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: little known fact. Yeah, and it's part of the that's 434 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: part of the Georgia congressional slang. They say their prayer 435 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: and then they spark up adobie. Yeah, guy Fox, I 436 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember him. He thought that barrel 437 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: was actually full of doobies. Yeah, yeah, yes, and right. 438 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: So the the reason the politics matter here, the reason 439 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: they're so fundamental, is because this means that excuse the 440 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: budget allocations for a lot of jails and penitentiaries. You 441 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: want to spend a lot of money securing the place, right, 442 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: making it hard to walk out of. But dude, why 443 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: would you Why would you spend money on healthcare, especially 444 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: if it means you could be accused of going soft 445 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: on crime. This problem is exacerbated in jails that are 446 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 1: in rural or poor counties, which happens a lot. Jails 447 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: will tend to be in role and poor counties because 448 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: they can be advertised as a source of jobs right 449 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: for an ailing community. So administrators complain, you know, they say, look, 450 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: I don't have the the resources. I can't make the 451 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: numbers work. How am I supposed to hire, train and 452 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: supervise doctors and nurses right let it like GPS lettle 453 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: them specialized medical care? Like what what on earth am 454 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: I going to be able to do to incentivize a 455 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: medical health professional to work with me? I certainly can't 456 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: pay her or him as much as they can make 457 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: in the private sector. So increasingly they turned to for 458 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: profit companies. And this is a field of healthcare that 459 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people have probably not heard about. I 460 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: don't know if any of us heard about it beforehand. 461 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 1: I certainly didn't. Correctional health care, so think of like 462 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: blue Cross, Blue Shield, just for people in lock up. 463 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: They pledge to deliver quality care, while very very attractive 464 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: to administrators, containing cost. It's part of a trend that 465 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: started back in the nineteen eighties during the Reagan administration, 466 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: where the idea was that in general, we will start 467 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: to privatize things. We as a country in general will 468 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: privatize things because we'll be cutting the fat and having 469 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: cost as the having costs is the bottom line will 470 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: encourage more nimble, slimmed down, and more efficient operations. This 471 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: trend accelerated after the nineties, right when we had a 472 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: ton of uh tough sentencing laws like mandatory sentencing and stuff. 473 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: The Violent Crime Control Law Enforcement Act made the number 474 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: of people in jails and prisons jump from about three 475 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: hundred thousand to more than two million today. Yeah so, 476 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: according to a study from the Pew Charitable Trusts, more 477 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 1: than half of the state's higher private companies to provide 478 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: at least some of that prison healthcare UM services. Those 479 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: prison healthcare services the companies they negotiate these multi year 480 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: contracts with each jail and prison that they serve, medical 481 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: staff and prescription drugs, and outside services such as hospital 482 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: stays UM constitute the bulk the line to share of 483 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: these costs. Oftentimes, the companies receive a per day, per 484 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: individual rate, so profits depend on keeping costs below that 485 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: that amount. UM. Sometimes contracts include provisions that increase a 486 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: company's potential profit if it holds down transfers to hospitals 487 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: or to other outside providers. Ben, can you help us 488 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: unpack this because I don't know about you, but this 489 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: seems a little on the shady side. For sure, your 490 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: spider sense is correct. Sometimes, um, this stuff can get 491 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: lost in the legal language. But this is a very 492 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: important turn in the story here. The companies, these uh 493 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: private health providers for prisons have negotiated these things that say, look, 494 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: we will make more money if everyone is and this 495 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: is just for sake of argument. If everyone is limited 496 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: to UH four hundred dollars a day, the medical care 497 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: for all these inmates is four hundred dollars per person 498 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: per day or less, and as probably as less than, 499 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: we will make another profit. Furthermore, if UH x number 500 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: of people or less than that go to a hospital 501 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: per year or to a specialist off site, then will 502 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: make another will make another windfall, another bonus. So we 503 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: know that private health insurance follows the same thing. It's 504 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: not a it's not a new game, right. They want 505 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: to avoid unnecessary tests and procedures. You probably hear that 506 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: a lot back in the old death panel argument days. 507 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: But this, this is very important. This means that if 508 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: someone in in jail or in prison believes that their 509 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: health or even their life is in jeopardy, they can't 510 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: do what any of us do. They can't just call 511 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: nine one one. They can't you know, uh, they can't 512 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: play the great medical debt game that's killing this country 513 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: and pay eleven grand for an ambulance over time. Instead, 514 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: they have to hope and pray if they are the 515 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: religious type, that someone in the prison believes that they 516 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: are exhibiting the signs of a stroke and they have 517 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: to hope and pray that it's a minor stroke, or 518 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: they have to hope and pray that the diabetes doesn't 519 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: catch up to them and they get some help before 520 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: they go into insulin shock. There are no comprehensive statistics 521 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: about the prevalence of private healthcare companies in jail, and 522 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: that makes sense because why would you want people to 523 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: know that outside of maybe a trade show where you're 524 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: pitching to a warden. There you go. But we do 525 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: have some stuff. We know that the National Commission on 526 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: Correctional Healthcare has has accredited these programs around the country, 527 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: and seventy of the jails it inspects outsourced their medical 528 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: services and when they outsource, these for profit companies have 529 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: have a pretty big chunk of those contracts. Oh boy, 530 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: so let's uh, let's get into what we know about 531 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: some of this stuff. Um just it's gonna get even 532 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: deeper and darker. After a quick word from our sponsor, 533 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: we're back. So we've been talking in general terms about 534 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: private companies, right, private healthcare companies. But let's let's name 535 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: a few because we have some name tames. Right, So 536 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: we've got at least one big one, and it used 537 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: to be called Correct Care Solutions, and that's the one 538 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: that I had heard of before, but it's now called 539 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: well Path. And there's also Horizon Health. It looks like 540 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: Horizon but with a C. Those are two of the 541 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: bigger players. Is that like a chron nut kind of Yeah? Okay, 542 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: so it's on the horizon, but it's like correction. It's 543 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: the correction Horizon of health. It used to be called 544 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: Correctional Medical Services Incorporated, and then before that it was 545 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: Prison Health Services Incorporated. Kind of like Blackwater or Academi 546 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: or XE has changed up a little bit, just changed 547 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: the names. It'll be fine, it'll be grand. What an adventure. Yeah, Well, 548 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: there's a reason why those names changed. Just like you said, 549 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: like black Water. With Blackwater, it was about public perception, 550 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: right with some scandals that were occurring. And when we 551 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: say scandals, we mean pretty much murder that was occurring 552 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: with it. With these companies, these it's because they've been 553 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: sued a lot. The two of them together combined have 554 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: been sued about fifteen hundred times in the fast past 555 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: five years. And a lot of those were over you know, 556 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: accusations of things like neglect and malpractice and in dozens 557 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: of cases, uh, even wrongful injury or up to death. Carizon, 558 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: one of those companies, was the defendant, and more than 559 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 1: one thousand cases so of those fifteen hundred. And it's 560 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: interesting because Carison cares for about a hundred and eighty 561 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: thousand people day to day. Well Path, in contrast, handles 562 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: about two hundred and fifty thousand people day to day. Wow. 563 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: Representatives for both companies say, well, these lawsuits are often flimsy, frivolous, 564 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: were inconclusive, and we know you know again, people aren't 565 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: in jail or prison for being on their best behavior. 566 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: From what we understand, Uh, the vast majority of people 567 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: are inmates are just trying to get through their time 568 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: and get get out, and the other side of the 569 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: bars gives us a different perspective. The prison guards can 570 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: assure us that there are there are multiple people who 571 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: do have mental health problems. You know, they're they're flinging poo. 572 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe there's some people malingering, which means faking an 573 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: illness simply to change up their routine to get out somewhere, 574 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But be that as it may, 575 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't negate the fact that these cases of wrongful 576 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: injury or death have have been decreed. Legitimate public interest 577 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: lawyers have brought class action suits alleging inadequate healthcare across 578 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: the entire system. There there multiple multiple examples of this, 579 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: unfortunately some which end in death. But we've we've got 580 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: let's just do one example from Arizona. So in Arizona, 581 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: civil rights groups filed a class action suit. In a 582 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: year later, after the state passed legislation privatizing prison healthcare, 583 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: it signed a contract with Corrison to provide medical services 584 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: in those prisons. Then, in a federal district court that 585 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: sought to resolve the suit, approved a settlement in which 586 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: the state pledged to overhaul its care. But last June, 587 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: Judge David Duncan found that quote widespread and systematic failures 588 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: remain end quote and held the state in contempt, issuing 589 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: it finds of more than one million dollars. And that's 590 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: interesting because the when when they're defending themselves, the private 591 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: prison insurance companies will say that part of their contract 592 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,479 Speaker 1: and diemnifies the state or you know, the party from 593 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: the government that they're contracting, indemnifies them from legal costs. 594 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: But in the case of Arizona, the judge wasn't having 595 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: it and essentially said, no, don't put this on them. 596 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: You're the ones who agreed to let this happen. In 597 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: the meantime, by the way, while these things are winding 598 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: and wending through the court system, people are dying, you know, 599 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: and many of whom committed crimes. But the ones who 600 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: are dying were not sentenced to the death penalty. And 601 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: the question then becomes, is this sentencing people to death? 602 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: Which I know is a really messed up way to 603 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: look at it, but it's not unfair. According to Steve Cole, 604 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: journalists wrote an excellent article for The New Yorker, evidence 605 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: from cases across the country suggests that four decades of 606 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: policy failures in both health care and criminal justice reform 607 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 1: have left a largely neglected population vulnerable and at times 608 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: at risk, and that for profit companies, which were promoted 609 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: as a solution have instead become an integral part of 610 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: a troubled system. They were supposed to fix it back 611 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: in the eighties, and all they did was fix their 612 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: profit marches. Yeah, and now it's become too big to 613 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: fail in a way you can't really remove it. It 614 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: even goes down to even goes down to the food, right, 615 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: because we joke about food all the time. But food 616 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: is part of your health. It's a massive part of 617 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: your health. You are what you eat, buddy. And it 618 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: really is like the simplest thing to to say that. 619 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: My wife, My wife and I have a an ongoing, 620 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 1: like joke argument about that about how important your food is. Um. 621 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: She likes to eat a lot more healthy than I do. 622 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: And I just I just like the good tasting stuff, 623 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, you stuff that you evolved to seek out. Yeah, 624 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: the sugar, the fat, the salt, Yeah, mostly the fats, 625 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: like the bacons. You also like the heat, though, don't you. Man? Yeah, 626 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: give me the spicy bacon. You're a spicy boy. I'm 627 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: good to go. But yeah, it's just one of those 628 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: things where it is true, if you're eating more healthier, 629 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: getting more nutrients, you are in a better spot for 630 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: all the other stuff and you're not going to have 631 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,879 Speaker 1: as many issues, at least theoretically. But we we got 632 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: a caller some when a listener called in from Alabama 633 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: and told us about this story where there was a 634 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: local sheriff's office that was getting they would make money 635 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,720 Speaker 1: off the top of whatever money they didn't spend on 636 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: food for the prison system within the county. And we 637 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: haven't looked into it fully yet. We do have a 638 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: story here from NPR about a sheriff in Alabama that 639 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: the caller was mentioning he took almost a million dollars, 640 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars legally. He took this 641 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: money to buy a beach house. Money that was meant 642 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,760 Speaker 1: to feed inmates within his county. Yeah, Ottawah County, shareff 643 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: Todd entrickin Uh Todd, if you're listening, I hope you 644 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: enjoy your beach house. What Todd did was pocket this, 645 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, seven fifty large that was supposed to feed 646 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: inmates of the jail that he supervised. Then, according to 647 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: the Birmingham News, he used the money that he pocketed 648 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: or the majority of it, to buy a beach house. 649 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: Because Alabama has this law that allows sheriffs to quote, 650 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: keep and retain unspent money from jail food provision accounts. 651 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: So sheriff's across the state of Alabama take the money 652 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,879 Speaker 1: as personal income like a bonus. Yeah, for like doing 653 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: a good job, because they had like a surplus kind 654 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,439 Speaker 1: of Well, it's not attached to doing a good job. 655 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: It's just that I mean, if the good job is 656 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: defined as taking less money to feed people, then they 657 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: can take it. There. It goes both ways, though. People 658 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: are quick to point out if they have a shortfall 659 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: in the budget in that regard, then the sheriff as 660 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: an individual's personally held liable for bring the gap. But 661 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: turns out that they don't really go out of their 662 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: way to spend that much on feeding their inmates. Yeah, 663 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: this that's really depressing h and messed up sheriff. Also, 664 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: we don't know how many people are doing this, because 665 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: sheriff's across the state apparently have done this for a 666 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: long time. That law dates back to the Depression, and 667 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: according to the Southern Center for Human Rights, quote, it 668 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: is presently unknown how much money sheriff's across the state 669 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: have taken because most do not report it as income 670 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: on state financial disclosure forms. Yeah, so you're not required 671 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: to specify any money that you take in in this 672 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: way above two and fifty thousand dollars a year, and 673 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: he brought in seven. You have to wonder what they're 674 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: what what they're eating. You know, it makes me think 675 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: of do you guys remember the controversy of neutraloaf. Do 676 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: do you remember hearing about that? I do. It was 677 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: like a food substitute, kind of like soilent green. Yeah, 678 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: kind of. It's like the the Okay, you know that 679 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: there's meat loaf. There's neutra loaf, which is also called 680 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: meal loaf because it is it's this un unholy amalgamation 681 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: of vegetables, fruit, meat, bread, other grains baked into a 682 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: solid loaf. The ingredients vary, but there is something called 683 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: dairy blend. It sounds like fruitcake to me, but with 684 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: fruitcake they at least keep the shape of the fruits 685 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: right in there. Yeah. Well, they they're just cued and 686 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of like all said, candied and gummy looking, but 687 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: they're identifiably fruit, right, That's right. I see what you're saying. 688 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 1: This is just like ground into a pulp, into a taste, 689 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: and then that's baked into kind of this amalgam of 690 00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: god knows what right, And that one even went to court, 691 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: uh several times. In a case called Gordon versus Barnett, 692 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 1: the District Court for the Western District of Washington ruled 693 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: that someone got all the way to court arguing that 694 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: eating neutraloaf was cruel and unusual punishment. And although the 695 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: court ruled that it was not cruel and unusual, it 696 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: was a punishment and that prisoners should be entitled to 697 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: due process before they have to eat it. It's so 698 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: bad that you have to get like the law involved 699 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: for you to be forced to eat this, at least 700 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: according to that judge. Jeez, just a just to jump 701 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: back into I'm reading a little bit further down in 702 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: the article. It gives a little more context to this. 703 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: So apparently this sheriff and how did we say it 704 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: in in tricking and tricking and tricking and tricking like 705 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: ettrick and the demon's that's oh, that's really cool. So yeah, 706 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: so he's an Alabama's he's a tricking um. So when 707 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: he came into office, the preview sheriff died while he 708 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: was in office, okay, and this this money, this money 709 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: that's meant for inmates for food. Um, that account got 710 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: drained and it was given to the family of that 711 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: sheriff that just passed, and that was about a hundred 712 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars or some something to that effect. 713 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: All that money was taken out. So then this current 714 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,880 Speaker 1: sheriff had to take out a personal loan hundred and 715 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars just to keep the inmates fed. And 716 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 1: he was paying off that for years and years and years. 717 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 1: So it is interesting how the tides kind of turned 718 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: with him having to take out this initial loan, to 719 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: him getting a beach you know, a beach house, and 720 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: then ultimately owning property that's worth over one point seven 721 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: million dollars through you know, all these various things that's 722 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: he and his wife, um. And then also the fact 723 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,879 Speaker 1: that he makes about ninety three thousand dollars a year 724 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,240 Speaker 1: as the sheriff of a county, just base level, base level, 725 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: and then he's able to make the bonus essentially on 726 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 1: this one account that is directly tied to the food 727 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: that would go to inmates. That is puzzling and strange 728 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: and I will never fully understand that. And it is legal. 729 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: It is completely not against the law yet. So this 730 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: this is such a brief look, but it leads us 731 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: to the question what is to be done. The problem 732 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: comes down to profit, but it also comes down to accountability. 733 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: Right the healthcare providers say, you know again, we take 734 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: care of the legal cost in many cases. But also 735 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: this is a ten billion plus dollar industry and those 736 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,360 Speaker 1: companies are obligated to seek profit on behalf of their owners. 737 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: According to David Fathi, the director of the National Prison 738 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,959 Speaker 1: Project at the a c l U American Civil Liberties Union, 739 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: these companies have compelling incentives to cut costs and staff 740 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: and that can result to denying care and what is 741 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: literally and I don't know if he was going for 742 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: a pun here a captive market like they can They 743 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: cannot switch insurance providers, right, they can't say, well, this 744 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: doctor stinks and they misdiagnosed my appendicitis and I almost died. 745 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,479 Speaker 1: I want someone else, And they'll say no, sorry, you're 746 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to stick with this person for at 747 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: least the next two to five years that you're locked 748 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: up and fought, he says. You know, he says. I 749 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: don't mean to suggest that government run prison healthcare is perfect. 750 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,280 Speaker 1: It's often appallingly deficient. But at least when the government 751 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: has providing the service, there's some measure of oversight, some 752 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,359 Speaker 1: measure of democratic control, and a lot of people may say, well, 753 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: this is a rock and a hard place situation, because 754 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,479 Speaker 1: neither is particularly great for people incarcerated. But then there's 755 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: something weird that we didn't talk about because of the 756 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: way that the law changed to guarantee. You know, from 757 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: from much of US history, the idea of prisoners receiving 758 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,919 Speaker 1: medical care was just like bonkers, why would you do that? 759 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? But as the law has changed, 760 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: even though the prison system is is terrible for people 761 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: who are caught up in it, and even though it 762 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,000 Speaker 1: often increases a person's chances of committing a crime or recidivism, 763 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: which is when they return to prison, uh inmates rights 764 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,920 Speaker 1: to healthcare have actually expanded in comparison to the public. 765 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: The inmates. The rulings that gave inmates a right to 766 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: access to healthcare, at least on paper, have never been 767 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: applied to free citizens. I want to say that one 768 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 1: more time. Inmates access to a doctor, to healthcare have 769 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: been guaranteed in this country, at least on paper. If 770 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: you are listening to this and you are not in prison, 771 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: in that regard, the people incarcerated have more rights than 772 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: you do. It doesn't it makes you wonder. It makes 773 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,279 Speaker 1: you wonder if sometimes it would be a better move 774 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: to do something to get incarcerated to get your health back. 775 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 1: If you're in a tight enough spot. That's scary to 776 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 1: think about. And I will have done that, That's what 777 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm saying. I know it has been done. There are 778 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,880 Speaker 1: specific examples, but just the fact that that is a 779 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,319 Speaker 1: situation you can find yourself in in this country is 780 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: baffling and um terrifying, and not even mention that some 781 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,919 Speaker 1: people to do it just for shelter, sometimes on purpose. Yeah, yeah, 782 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen all the time, but people do go 783 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: to jail and purpose. Some people go to bring in 784 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 1: drugs from the outside one way or another, probably ingesting 785 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: it somehow right and then passing it. Uh. In two 786 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,240 Speaker 1: thousand and twelve. A guy named Frank Morocco of Amherst, 787 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: New York, was unable to afford healthcare for a rare 788 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,240 Speaker 1: form of leukemia he was He was released from prison 789 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: in two thousands. Well, he had been in jail for 790 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,239 Speaker 1: twenty years on felony drug charges, so he's fifty six 791 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: years old. So he went in when he was thirty six. 792 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,040 Speaker 1: He had lukemi had no way to pay for it. 793 00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: He had been incarcerated for so long that he walked 794 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: into a grocery store, stepped up to the counter, just 795 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: stole twenty three bucks worth of goods in plain sight 796 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: so that the employees could see, and then walked out. 797 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:29,200 Speaker 1: Got arrested on shoplifting, which violated his supervised release, and 798 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: he was hoping it would land him back in prison 799 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: so that he could get some help with his leukemia. 800 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 1: Did it work. It was not reported whether Morocco got 801 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: the treatment, but he was released from prison on the 802 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:51,239 Speaker 1: shoplifting charge in April. Well, I guess I hope he did. 803 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: But again, you know, this is such a tough topic 804 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: because there really, there really is such a range of 805 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: humanity that exists within the prison system, and just of 806 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, depending on your sense of morality. Uh, it 807 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,720 Speaker 1: really affects the way you're gonna feel about this. Um, 808 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: it really does. In the in the end, every single 809 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,320 Speaker 1: person in a prison everywhere is a human being that 810 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: that you know, and the best of times and the 811 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 1: best of um idealism, they deserve a shot at being healthy. UM. 812 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: But if that person has you know, heard another in 813 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: one way or you know, in one fashion or another, 814 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 1: it's tough to it's tough to stomach the thought of 815 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: them getting better healthcare than just someone who isn't doing 816 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,360 Speaker 1: so great financially outside of prison. This is a really 817 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 1: tough topic. It is it is. Let's also, I mean, 818 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,160 Speaker 1: let's ta get a step further and say that one 819 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,000 Speaker 1: of the reasons, uh, the prison system in the US 820 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: has so many problems is that it is not a 821 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,720 Speaker 1: program meant to rehabilitate people in along in many ways 822 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: makes me think about that Psycho documentary from several years back, 823 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: and we want to hear your take. Thank you for 824 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: taking this strange journey with us. What role do you 825 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,960 Speaker 1: feel private, uh, private medical care or private medical providers 826 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: should play in the US prison system? Is this is 827 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:25,760 Speaker 1: this something that uh people incarcerated, you know, somehow deserve 828 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, is that is that just part of the 829 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,760 Speaker 1: risk that they knowingly or unknowingly took when they committed 830 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: a crime? How how would it be addressed? I'm sure 831 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 1: we have several people who are saying right now, you 832 00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: know that I pay my taxes, I pay a lot 833 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: right and I still struggle to pay my own medical bills. 834 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,600 Speaker 1: Why should this be better for someone else who who 835 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,359 Speaker 1: didn't who didn't obey the rules of our land. And 836 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,080 Speaker 1: we didn't want to say it's necessarily better because I think, 837 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: as we've illustrated here, people are dying from easily preventable 838 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: conditions in prison exactly. You can tell us about this 839 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 1: on Instagram. You can find us on Twitter. You can 840 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, where you can meet our favorite 841 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,720 Speaker 1: part of the show, your fellow listeners on our Facebook 842 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,440 Speaker 1: community page. Here's where it gets crazy. If you're not 843 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: down with the social media regular roll and you want 844 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: to reach out to us using some older technology, you 845 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 1: can give us a call at our hotline where we 846 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: are one eight three three s C D W y 847 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,239 Speaker 1: t O, or you can just chant our name like 848 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,759 Speaker 1: that and we will probably um press the digitate before you. 849 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: That's right in. Uh, shout out to everybody who's been 850 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: calling in. Remember I told you guys the other day. 851 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:47,160 Speaker 1: I think it was like twenty something messages. I started, uh, 852 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,759 Speaker 1: you know, categorizing a lot of them and downloading them. 853 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,959 Speaker 1: We're up to thirty four now in like the past 854 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: couple of days. Um, and I'm just going through these 855 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: people keep calling in, don't stop. We're loving it. You're 856 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: sending all kinds of really interesting stuff. We wouldn't have 857 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,920 Speaker 1: known about that Alabama sheriff and the food thing if 858 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 1: you hadn't called us and told us about it. So 859 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:07,879 Speaker 1: keep it coming. If you don't want to do any 860 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,360 Speaker 1: of that stuff, please reach out to us via email. 861 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at how stuff works dot com. Stuff 862 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:34,759 Speaker 1: they Don't Want you to Know is a production of 863 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from 864 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 865 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:42,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.