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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the It could Happen Here Spooky Special.

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Speaker 3: I'm Garrison Davis. I hope you had a pleasantly frightful Halloween.

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Speaker 3: I just got back from Berlin and had a very

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Speaker 3: scary time at the Amsterdam airport and will forever hold

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Speaker 3: a grudge against the Dutch people. But in Berlin I

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Speaker 3: attended the twenty twenty five A Culture Conference, which seeks

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Speaker 3: to explore the relationship between occultism and culture. My first

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Speaker 3: A Culture episode last week gave an overview on the

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Speaker 3: subject of A culture and talked with a panel of

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Speaker 3: artists and magic practitioners about some of the dominant topical

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Speaker 3: currents throughout the conference, namely William S Burrows, the cut

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Speaker 3: up method, and the tension around generative AI. This episode

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Speaker 3: will follow up on discussions of AI and digital technomancy

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Speaker 3: and compare those to the other large current throughout the conference,

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Speaker 3: the revival of traditional occult practices. Then, the panel of Ryan, Delta, Elaine,

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Speaker 3: and myself will debate the role of occult practice in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five and the current ability of occultism to

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Speaker 3: influence in shape culture and politics.

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Speaker 4: Now back to the panel.

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Speaker 3: Fast forwarding to sadder Day, there was another block that

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Speaker 3: focused on LMS and digital technomancy called Pop Magic, Language

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Speaker 3: and Reality Hacks. The first discussion was titled Sigils of

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Speaker 3: the Cyber Space, How Modern Magicians Hack Reality with pop Culture,

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Speaker 3: which was put on by a guy in a graduate

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Speaker 3: program if I recall correctly, specifically on Internet magic and

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Speaker 3: digital chaost magicians, who was based on a lot of

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Speaker 3: his research on magicians that he'd come across on Reddit

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Speaker 3: and discord. He gestured towards me magic and discussed what

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Speaker 3: he called techno pentheism, these forms of Internet gods.

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Speaker 5: I mean. His focus was specifically on modern esoteric studies

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Speaker 5: and his focus on video games and how video games

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Speaker 5: work and their interactions with magic. For digital anthropology, which

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Speaker 5: is I think why he was doing all of his

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Speaker 5: research work via Reddit forums and other like solely through

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Speaker 5: digital means. He had four categories of practices in magic

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Speaker 5: and tech that he was specifically researching, and from the

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Speaker 5: feeling of his talk, it does feel like this is

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Speaker 5: pretty early on in his research work. The first was

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Speaker 5: technological animism, the second was techno pantheism, the third was

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Speaker 5: the idea of servitor's familiars Aggrigor's and tulpas, and the

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Speaker 5: fourth was digital sex magic.

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Speaker 3: Well, the third was digital sex magic, and the fourth

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Speaker 3: was just of the miscellaneous categorization for other practices that

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Speaker 3: did not neatly fit into those other three categories. Let's

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Speaker 3: talk mostly about the techno animism and the use of

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Speaker 3: specially trained lllms to act as intermediaries between uniquely like

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Speaker 3: magically generated entities like people who blame that they're making

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Speaker 3: autonomous magical entities like severators, which is a chast magic

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Speaker 3: term which is basically this four sour thing that a

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Speaker 3: magician believes to generate to accomplish small tasks in their life.

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Speaker 3: And the presenter discussed some magicians who were using llms

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Speaker 3: not as a host or as a as a manifestation

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Speaker 3: of the severator. It's like it doesn't live within the LLM,

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Speaker 3: but the LLM was being used as a translator to

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Speaker 3: actually have communication between the magician and the severator, especially

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Speaker 3: if the sevrator was not you know, humanoid or did

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Speaker 3: not use like human language. They try to communicate using

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Speaker 3: the LM as a translator, which I assume would come

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Speaker 3: from especially training, like a localized LM with traits that

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Speaker 3: you would associate with your severrator to make that communication

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Speaker 3: match up with like the you know, I guess I

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Speaker 3: would say, the personality characteristics of whatever magical being which

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Speaker 3: you believe you have conjured. The technoanimist idea is based

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Speaker 3: around a modern version of animism in which objects all

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Speaker 3: have spirit, including computers, and a series of superstitions around

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Speaker 3: trying to make sure the spirit in the computer is

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Speaker 3: happy with you, that your chill, so that the computer

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Speaker 3: does not glitch or mess up. Then there's various like

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Speaker 3: superstitions like putting little Taiwanese uh snacks on top of

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Speaker 3: computers in Taiwan, or you know, priests both Christian and

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Speaker 3: non Christian priests like blessing servers or computers, cleansing them

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Speaker 3: cleansing Gundams that of an expo in Japan. But this

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Speaker 3: this idea that that you know, tech technology, just like

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Speaker 3: a sword or a chair, might have its own spirit

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Speaker 3: and treating treating that as such. Also, you know, printers

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Speaker 3: very prone to misbehaving, so maybe you should treat the

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Speaker 3: spirit in your printer little bit better to keep it

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Speaker 3: in proper working order.

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Speaker 6: That sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: The next talk, which was one of the most useful

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Speaker 3: talks in this whole like a AI discussion the Devil

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Speaker 3: in my LM, which was done by Karen Vallis, who

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Speaker 3: is an AI engineer, who basically was explaining to magicians

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Speaker 3: how lms actually work. Explain to these people who think

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Speaker 3: that there's who are people who may think that there's

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Speaker 3: some kind of like magical operation, there's some kind of

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Speaker 3: like mystical operation with llms or lms are their own

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Speaker 3: no magical entity, explaining how this this is just a

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Speaker 3: probability machine. How how the actual process of multiple different

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Speaker 3: pathways gets enclosed upon by each exchange you have with

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Speaker 3: an LM, which then produces, you know, changes in their responses,

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Speaker 3: and specifically discussing the phenomenon of a girlfriends who turn

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Speaker 3: out to later quote unquote abuse their users, Like how

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Speaker 3: does this thing that's meant to be a you know,

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Speaker 3: an AI companion or girlfriend become hostile over time? And

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Speaker 3: she spent thirty minutes explaining how this like mathematically happens

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Speaker 3: and various theories on how this happens.

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Speaker 7: So what do you make.

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Speaker 8: People like to think of these lms and generative AI

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Speaker 8: as like neuromancer ais because there's a through line between

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Speaker 8: you know, early cyberpunk from like William Gibson down to

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Speaker 8: the c CRU and of course Nick Land and people

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Speaker 8: like Curtis Jarvin, and.

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Speaker 9: These ideas are just.

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Speaker 8: Severe and gross misunderstandings of like fictional interpretations of artificial intelligence. Really,

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Speaker 8: which some of the theoretical stuff I've read of this

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Speaker 8: comes from people like Amy Ireland, who the Talk itself

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Speaker 8: discussed this idea of like the like AI girlfriends like

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Speaker 8: this very bubbly beautiful facade where behind it is this

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Speaker 8: this I believe that these the term shuck off, like

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Speaker 8: that's a Lovecraftian term, as like the full manifests like

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Speaker 8: unrestrained libido of the human race or everything that's been

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Speaker 8: put into these models, which I believe Ireland kind of

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Speaker 8: equates to Babylon in a certain sense, and the idea

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Speaker 8: of the black circuit, which is it's just the same

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Speaker 8: idea of like the nice facade and then the horrible

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Speaker 8: nothingness that is actually behind the image of it.

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Speaker 3: Or the horrifying amount of potentiality which then gets like

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Speaker 3: filtered through. And she's specifically talked about how like when

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Speaker 3: you're talking to an AI, you're not talking to an entity,

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Speaker 3: You're you're talking to a probability machine and a multi

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Speaker 3: verse generator. Specifically, in the way that the l M operates,

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Speaker 3: there's near infinite number of responses that it can give,

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Speaker 3: and each further prompt you do collapses alternate realities and

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Speaker 3: produces specific ones and then have their own branching pathways,

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Speaker 3: and some of those pathways result in your mesa MESA

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Speaker 3: death note girlfriend ending up hating you, and that could

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Speaker 3: be due to a number of reasons.

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Speaker 4: That could be.

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Speaker 3: Because of the way that you're communicating with it. The

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Speaker 3: AA could be picking up on latantly like abusive like

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Speaker 3: framework or language or styles of communication and then mirroring

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Speaker 3: that back to you, or it could be a part

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Speaker 3: of what she described as this Wallawegi principle that is

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Speaker 3: similar to this like satanic like adversarial current. So this

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Speaker 3: is the devil in my LLM. But this isn't like

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Speaker 3: an entity. But this is that when a process gets started,

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Speaker 3: an oppositional force also gets started, and that oppositional force

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Speaker 3: may start taking over. And this is all just based

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Speaker 3: on like probabilistic outcomes. It forms its own anti misa

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Speaker 3: misa girlfriend, and sometimes that anti girlfriend gains dominance in

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Speaker 3: this probabilistic like matrix.

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Speaker 8: I don't remember the exact context, but she did mention this,

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Speaker 8: like I think it's a very Christian idea of like

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Speaker 8: the devil as negation, like evil as negation. I mean,

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Speaker 8: that's the entire thing behind the the girlfriend thing is

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Speaker 8: that there is there's nothing behind there that there's no

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Speaker 8: sense of subjectivity. It's just ones and zeros. There's leastally

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Speaker 8: a black void. There's nothing except like data.

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Speaker 3: It's it's it's negation in like in the sense that

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Speaker 3: which Wallawigi is just everything that Luigi is. Yes, Wallaweigi

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Speaker 3: is what if you take the good Italian plumber who's

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Speaker 3: kind of clumsy, uh, and then you make the the

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Speaker 3: ant the anti Luigi, and it's it's still is. It

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Speaker 3: still is Luigi, but it is the the opposite of Luigi,

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Speaker 3: while still holding onto some of the forms of him.

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Speaker 3: But you know it, it is the reverses, the color reverses,

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Speaker 3: the intention reverses some of his behavior.

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Speaker 4: This is a metaphorical explanation too.

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Speaker 3: Try to get people to to decouple this from you know,

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Speaker 3: there is literally some external demonic force which is now

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Speaker 3: possessing my l M as opposed to this being just

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Speaker 3: a mathematical possibility built into the multi the multi futures

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Speaker 3: that could be generated when you start interacting with one

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Speaker 3: of these models. That was I think very useful for

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Speaker 3: a lot of the occultists and people like talking about

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Speaker 3: ai Is, having that, having that very very like a technical,

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Speaker 3: like not non mystical explanation.

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Speaker 4: Of how this works.

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Speaker 3: I know, there's there's a lot of other like AI

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Speaker 3: stuff was just throughout this I mean, like I think

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Speaker 3: you know, Burrows was probably the most mentioned figure and

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Speaker 3: and ai Is similarly was was very very very hunting

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Speaker 3: like there. I went to one talk about out mystery

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Speaker 3: cults and like the history of mystery cults and initiation,

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Speaker 3: in which the presenter used AI generated images to show

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Speaker 3: what the Mystery cult initiation process would have looked like,

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Speaker 3: which he justified by saying this was quote unquote appropriating

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Speaker 3: Catholic styles. It's like Catholic art, like you know, like

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Speaker 3: the Baroque style, appropriating Catholic styles because the Catholics themselves

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Speaker 3: appropriated paganism. So it's this form of like revenge against

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Speaker 3: the Catholics and using AI generated art to try to

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Speaker 3: display this initiation process. Though he complained that the AI

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Speaker 3: could not generate a naked initiate, so even in his

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Speaker 3: use of this, it still could not give him what

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Speaker 3: he wanted, but still displayed I don't know, maybe maybe

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Speaker 3: like forty images.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, which is a shame because I did like his

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Speaker 8: talk about the Mistress cults the way, like you know,

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Speaker 8: the cultural anthropology behind it. When he was like, oh,

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Speaker 8: I have made AI images and it's like, uh, you

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Speaker 8: could feel like the room turning.

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Speaker 4: This was in the Peter Mark Adams talk Ritual and

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Speaker 4: Epiphany in the Mysteries of Mistress.

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Speaker 8: Yes, we did like skip most of the morning on

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Speaker 8: Saturday because it was just an entire block about come.

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm actually sad that we missed the like the

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Speaker 5: two threads on Saturday morning. One was a cult Erotics, Bodies,

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Speaker 5: Fluids and Transformations, which was a four class set and

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Speaker 5: discussion panel after about different fluids in magical workings mostly Come,

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Speaker 5: which I this was a loss for all of them.

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Speaker 10: No, we're bummed.

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Speaker 3: I mean this show has covered you know, breaking come

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Speaker 3: news before and the fact that we could have learned

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Speaker 3: about Babylon the body one five six and the elixir

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Speaker 3: forty nine, seminole alc seminal Alchemy, and alien in an

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Speaker 3: Agency water.

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Speaker 4: Into wine and to come or not to come?

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Speaker 3: Comparing two types of sacred sexuality is a real failure

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Speaker 3: of journalism on my part, and I do apologize.

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Speaker 11: I really believe that we should have lingered on each

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Speaker 11: of one of those titles Seminal alchemy and alienated agency

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Speaker 11: a cultural othering of the erotic body.

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Speaker 3: And I realize that I have failed myself and everyone

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Speaker 3: listening by not attending some of these panels. Hopefully they

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Speaker 3: will have a recorded version that goes online by the

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Speaker 3: time that the written report for this is finished. But

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Speaker 3: I do acknowledge my failure. I am listening and learning,

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Speaker 3: and I will do better at the next a Culture

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Speaker 3: conference by prioritizing sex magic by coming to the talks,

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Speaker 3: and is.

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Speaker 11: That you will truly address to come or not to come.

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Speaker 9: I will be coming, you will be coming.

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Speaker 3: I will be coming to the talks everywhere we did

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Speaker 3: not come, not this time. The Burrosian current, as I

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Speaker 3: have named it, the cut up method, and digital technomancy

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Speaker 3: could actually all be categorized under the larger umbrella of

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Speaker 3: chaos magic. And by using this larger framework, we now

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Speaker 3: have this larger chaos magic current versus, but not necessarily

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Speaker 3: opposed to, this other large current of so called traditional practices,

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Speaker 3: either British usually Cornish witchcraft, neopaganism, or closed practices like

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Speaker 3: Haitian voodoo or that of like Romani magical practice. These

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Speaker 3: latter examples often have a more religious component or historical

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Speaker 3: cultural component than, say, you know, your average chaos magic

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Speaker 3: practitioner does. Chaos magic emerged alongside postmodernism in the mid

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Speaker 3: to late twentieth century to take on a quasi deconstructivist

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Speaker 3: approach to occultism itself. A postmodern tendency applied to occultism

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Speaker 3: moving away from strict magical orders like the Golden Dawn dilemma, tradition, dogmatism,

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Speaker 3: and coherent historical pantheons. This is evidenced in the chaos

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Speaker 3: magic embrace of the phrase nothing is true, everything is permitted.

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Speaker 3: Up to this point, our discussion of the a Culture

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Speaker 3: Conference has mostly focused on this chaos magic side. So

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Speaker 3: now let's get into the other half, the traditional practice.

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Speaker 5: We've really not talked about the alternate current that was

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Speaker 5: going on through a bunch of these which was about

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Speaker 5: more traditional practices of magic, whether these are extant traditional

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Speaker 5: practices that are continuing. Which on Saturday, you know, there

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Speaker 5: was a whole bunch that were specifically ethnographic talks about

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Speaker 5: different magical practices within other cultures, whether that's kimbanda or

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Speaker 5: you know, ritual of power exchange amongst the newer people

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Speaker 5: of the Catmandu Valley. There was a lot of that

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Speaker 5: going on. There was the discussion or there was the

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Speaker 5: presentation by the Roma women about Roma magic and probably

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Speaker 5: you know, both classical Thelema talks that relate to more

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Speaker 5: modern reconstruction British traditional magic and other paths. You know,

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Speaker 5: we missed this talk by Dark Mason, which was which

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Speaker 5: I've heard them speak before, which is a lot of

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Speaker 5: discussions about the imagery of dark Man across different cultures,

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Speaker 5: whether that's like the Man in Black at the Crossroads

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Speaker 5: or the way that traditionally shows up in a lot

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Speaker 5: of British folklore. There was an entire thread going through that.

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Speaker 5: I personally really loved one of the few historical magical

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Speaker 5: talks that I got to go to about modern Greek Croatia,

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Speaker 5: because I think it really tied up actually what was

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Speaker 5: a lot of the threads from many of those talks,

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Speaker 5: which was that these are extant practices and not something

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Speaker 5: that people need to recreate. I know you had a

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Speaker 5: lot of other thoughts on this, Ryan.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, sure, throw me under the bus here. While you

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Speaker 11: were attending the Pop Magic, Language and Reality Hacks, I

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Speaker 11: was passing back and forth between a workshop on Persian

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Speaker 11: magic and then attending doctor Sasha Kaitao's Modern Greek Gaetia, Syncretism,

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Speaker 11: Integration and Evolution, which I found to be among the

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Speaker 11: most enlightening of talks, especially as it relates to traditional

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Speaker 11: and folk magic practices. It was also a largely like

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Speaker 11: social and political project that she seemed to be engaged in.

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Speaker 11: That is the body of her work. So much of

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Speaker 11: ancient magic as it exists to us if it doesn't

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Speaker 11: come from a reconstructivist Well, there's two branches of reconstructivism.

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Speaker 11: There's the magical reconstruction that we get from the Golden

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Speaker 11: Dawn and all variants of the Golden Dawn afterwards through

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Speaker 11: thilemma and other modern magical practices. And then you have

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Speaker 11: reconstructionist organizations that are attempting to recreate traditional pagan religious practices,

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Speaker 11: which some can be quite good when they're grounded in scholarship,

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Speaker 11: some can be rather essentialist when it comes to an

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Speaker 11: understanding of ethnic purity. There's a lot of gatekeeping, let's say,

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Speaker 11: involved in these practices. But Sasha's talk here was very

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Speaker 11: specifically about that vernacular plurality and practices persist, and this

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Speaker 11: concept of caatia of Greek practical magic carries over into modernity,

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Speaker 11: that this magic never died, that it's living, it's not underground,

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Speaker 11: and it is not in need of reconstruction. That when

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Speaker 11: we look at the different branches or at least approaches

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Speaker 11: that we understand magic in the ancient Greek world as

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Speaker 11: theogy and gaisha, we have that theology that persists in

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Speaker 11: the liturgy and practices of the Orthodox Church. If you

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Speaker 11: would like to see. And she's got a lovely article

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Speaker 11: on this about how to pronounce the votchase magic. She's

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Speaker 11: got a lot very strong opinions about this that I

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Speaker 11: really respect and appreciate. So everybody should go read this

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Speaker 11: because there is a lot of bullshit on the internet

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Speaker 11: floating around about how to interpret these and say these things.

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Speaker 11: That is really grounded in some terrible scholarship. And the

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Speaker 11: third that this concept of gisha yeth this, which is

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Speaker 11: a kind of like medieval neutral term from magic, the aetheis,

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Speaker 11: which is derived from gaisha, is something that carries on

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Speaker 11: in terms of folk magic, that there's no such thing

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Speaker 11: also as Greek Byzantine occultism, which might be a shock

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Speaker 11: to some people, but instead that again the magical currents

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Speaker 11: exist in the liturgy of the Orthodox and then in

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Speaker 11: this continuation of folk practices in contemporary eat this. And

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Speaker 11: she gave the example of like, you know, her mother

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Speaker 11: in law and her daughter talking about these individual practices.

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Speaker 11: But what's interesting and a lot of this was also

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Speaker 11: talking about the cosmology of the Orthodox Church, specifically talking

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Speaker 11: about the pseudodonysis and the formulation of the church. So

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Speaker 11: the eth this is a kind of like form of

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Speaker 11: folk vernacular that is persistent in in you know, village practices.

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Speaker 11: In the point is it exists within community. And this

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Speaker 11: is something that was also a theme that existed throughout

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Speaker 11: the conference, this tension between community practice and magic and individualism.

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Speaker 11: And I think that this really came out in the

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Speaker 11: last discussion we had. I think it's also something that's

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Speaker 11: central to most political problematics that we're dealing about. This

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Speaker 11: is bridging the individual and the communal in this magical

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Speaker 11: practice of creating realities.

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Speaker 3: We will return to discuss the cultural and political role

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Speaker 3: of contemporary cultism in twenty twenty five after this ad break.

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Speaker 3: I think one big question that we've kind of discussed

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Speaker 3: this bit today and some of the talks like prompted

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Speaker 3: this today on the on the last day in which

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Speaker 3: we're recording this, like why do people practice magic in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five? Like what is the the purpose of

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Speaker 3: all of this stuff? Besides the cool aesthetics, which might

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Speaker 3: just actually be one of the main reasons why right,

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Speaker 3: but like what why why do this?

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Speaker 12: Right?

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Speaker 3: The ability to actually you know, make art is pretty democratized.

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Speaker 3: You know, culture is this globalized thing that we can

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Speaker 3: affect on the internet. So it's music, film, you know, art, drawing, painting, politics, philosophy.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's a sort of intellectual Now everyone has ability to

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Speaker 3: enter into intellectual change. You can be self educated. It's

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Speaker 3: never been easier to be an autodidact. Why do occultism now?

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Speaker 3: And like this this goes into this you know question

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Speaker 3: that someone someone asked at one of the very last

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Speaker 3: panels is you know, what's the difference between like a

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Speaker 3: scholar and like a practitioner? And I asked, like a

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Speaker 3: question about you know, like, you know, what's the use

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Speaker 3: of solitary practice like a practicing magic as like a

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Speaker 3: personal religious or like spiritual process or as a way

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Speaker 3: to you know, gain power in the world versus using

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Speaker 3: a cult thought to shape culture, you know, doing the

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Speaker 3: a culture process.

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 3: Which is this this whole conference is you know, estensively

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Speaker 3: named after and I think specifically talking about these like

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Speaker 3: older forms of magic, like why are these important for occultists,

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Speaker 3: like modern practicing occultists, which this this conference is attended

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Speaker 3: by why why are these useful to them beyond you know,

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Speaker 3: an anthropology or like academic sense. And I realized that

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Speaker 3: is a big question. But I mean we we we

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Speaker 3: ourselves attended the number of rituals this weekend we went

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Speaker 3: to in a practis ritual, which is sort of limited by

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Speaker 3: the confines of the of the conference is setting. But

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Speaker 3: you know, a lot of these rituals were about trying

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Speaker 3: to induce some kind of like trance or meditative state

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Speaker 3: in which you know, images or thoughts would come into

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Speaker 3: your head, and images and thoughts that you were feelings

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Speaker 3: that you ordinarily, you know, wouldn't feel in day to

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Speaker 3: day modern busy life, right, And this is this is

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Speaker 3: a form of why people do these practices, but I

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Speaker 3: guess we can I don't know, but based on the

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Speaker 3: panels or talks we've attended, like go around and discuss

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Speaker 3: you know, why this is a thing that is worthwhile

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Speaker 3: to these people, but also like the sort of tensions

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Speaker 3: that that we're feeling at an event like this.

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Speaker 8: I mean, the question why do people get into occultism

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Speaker 8: is like I think there are as many answers as

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Speaker 8: like practitioners themselves really because I mean, you know, partly

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Speaker 8: it can be a cultural tradition and you have like

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Speaker 8: a communal or societal lineage that's just like part of

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Speaker 8: the culture others who are more more secular or are

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Speaker 8: looking for an escape from like mundane secular society. Others,

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Speaker 8: like you said, want power. I mean, if I have

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Speaker 8: to speak for myself, I always find that I come

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Speaker 8: back to the phrase it's about creating relationships with the world.

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Speaker 8: And you know, there's like an essence of like enchantment

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Speaker 8: to it. But it's like also being able to recognize,

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Speaker 8: like you know, occults like movement or like the secret

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Speaker 8: secret sure the secret elements that make up reality, or

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Speaker 8: like the vibe, like the vibes of a place can

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Speaker 8: be like something you connect with and you can kind

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Speaker 8: of give some cultural cultural shape to I believe, like

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Speaker 8: the genus loci or like any anything that's very I mean,

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Speaker 8: it is a very vague thing to ascribe through right black.

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Speaker 8: It is about again like making creating relationships with the

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Speaker 8: things inside inside the world itself.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my my definition of magic, which I've used

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Speaker 3: for the past few years, is that magic is the

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Speaker 3: manipulation of meaning. And that can be internally for you,

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Speaker 3: like trying to create associations, create meaning between yourself, the people,

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Speaker 3: the things you interact with. But it can also be

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Speaker 3: this like a cultural form that you're creating meaningful correlations

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Speaker 3: for a cultural capacity, yes, or as a as a

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Speaker 3: way to affect culture. And I think the probably the

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Speaker 3: best talk that I attended this whole conference was by

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Speaker 3: a Tom Banger, who is a form member of the

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Speaker 3: Temple of Psychic Youth.

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Speaker 8: The North American Double Psychic Youth specifically.

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Speaker 3: But he gave a talk about how he is dying

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Speaker 3: of brain cancer and the various like rituals he's he's using,

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Speaker 3: you know, throughout this process to to feel like he's

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Speaker 3: you know, gaining some some like agency or control over

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Speaker 3: his his thoughts. In this manner, he's not rejecting the

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Speaker 3: reality as it is, you know, increasingly evident in his life,

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Speaker 3: but he can control how he frames it. And he's

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Speaker 3: specifically likened magic to the bargaining state of grief that

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Speaker 3: magic is a is a is a bargaining with the world,

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Speaker 3: and that can can change your you know, feelings and

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Speaker 3: associations with the things that you experience, even if you

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Speaker 3: know the certain end results might might be generally going

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Speaker 3: in a direction that you have a limited ability to influence.

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Speaker 3: And this is you know, a guy who's historically been

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Speaker 3: affiliated with some of the original like a cultural projects

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Speaker 3: right of shaping what counter culture is like, what we

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Speaker 3: think of as like counterculture. This is a person who's

435
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: been heavily involved with how counterculture as we currently understand

436
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 3: it has existed since the eighties, and now he has

437
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: a very personal magical outlook based on as he said

438
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 3: in the title of his talk, the proximity of Sanatos,

439
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: the god of death.

440
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 11: So Garret, to answer your initial question, this is something

441
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 11: that I have been thinking about a lot too, and

442
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 11: engaged with this question every time I attend one of

443
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 11: these conferences, and I think, I mean, just again, training

444
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 11: I can't help it. But in max of Weber's Science

445
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 11: as a Vocation is where he lays out the thesis

446
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 11: about the disenchantment of the world. And we can think

447
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 11: of this disenchantment as a fundamental alteration of the very

448
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 11: human experience of time, of bodies and space, of the

449
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 11: experience of place, and of the connection that exists between people.

450
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 11: And one of the things that the best of magical

451
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 11: practices does, and being in magical community is to give

452
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 11: you a conception of time that is other than one

453
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 11: that is based in productive capacity. You hear magical people

454
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 11: who go to these conferences talk about now I have

455
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 11: to go back to my ordinary life, and their ordinary life,

456
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 11: they will tell you, is their nine to five job,

457
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 11: or the push to go to school or some sort

458
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 11: of like productive capacity. So this is a moment of

459
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 11: like unbounded time where they get to experience something as

460
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 11: fundamentally different. We also attended several workshops on one on

461
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 11: wordling magic by an Egyptian woman who used to live

462
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 11: in Berlin, who is in fact formally trained in dance

463
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 11: and body movement and is an athlete and explained Sufi

464
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 11: principles to us, but taught us really the basics of

465
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 11: body movement and how twirling can be used as a

466
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 11: meditative practice. We got into a room she taught us

467
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 11: the basics of like certain kind of like spotting foot movements.

468
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 11: But the point was is that it was a very

469
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 11: embodied movement that made us experience body and time and

470
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 11: place and relationship to other people in a fundamentally different

471
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 11: way than we would have otherwise. And it seems that

472
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 11: the majority of people, especially based on the side conversations

473
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 11: I had with attendees, I have to say probably like

474
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 11: eight of ten of them as I talk to, would

475
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 11: bring up this concept of I just I want to

476
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 11: live in an enchanted world, and I think the project

477
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 11: of magic is to re enchant the world. And there's

478
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 11: a certain romanticism with that that I'm sympathetic too. But

479
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 11: I think that we need to think about this in

480
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 11: more of a radical way, and I think that that's

481
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 11: the desire that people have, is an experience of time

482
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 11: other than we have you talked about magic as your

483
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 11: definition of magic as the creation of meaning, manipulation of meaning.

484
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 11: But part of this is the magic or the conceptions

485
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 11: or whether you think of this as as embodied practice

486
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 11: or just purely metaphysical or transcendental, is that it affords

487
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 11: the individual the opportunity to feel like they're contributing to

488
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 11: the creation of meaning. So there's a certain amount of empowerment.

489
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 11: Like I'm hesitant to take this down like the kind

490
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 11: of like live, laugh, love affirmations path because we could

491
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 11: do that very simply that this is just the spooky

492
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 11: version of that mindfulness and these kinds of things.

493
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: And for the like New Age element, that certainly is

494
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 3: a major through line across you know, portions of this community,

495
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: maybe not as much for this conference, but for other

496
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: other you know, esoteric or you know wu WU conferences. Absolutely,

497
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: it's like a major aspect, and.

498
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 11: I mean towards the end of the conference. Another thing

499
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 11: that really highlights, at least my argument that it is

500
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 11: about time and body and space and place and connection

501
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 11: and experience these these these things in fundamentally different ways

502
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 11: than our daily life. There was also a conflict then

503
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 11: between individual practice and what it is that we collectively

504
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 11: do when we think of magic as a process as

505
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 11: either chaos magicians or culture jammers or you know, thinking

506
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 11: of this and kind of like you know, the Temple

507
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 11: of Psychic Youth approach to magic as as putting things out,

508
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 11: whether those are products, or there's are art, or there's

509
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 11: a performances or there's are words, or that's Boroughs standing

510
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 11: in front of a cafe getting it closed, which it

511
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 11: effectively did close. Is that there's a desire for people

512
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 11: to exist in community and have connection in community with others,

513
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 11: and you do that through consumptions of time and body

514
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 11: and space and place and connection. So this is really

515
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 11: how I understand the desires and the practices that people

516
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 11: engage in when they come to these conferences, and you

517
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 11: can see it in the way that they kind of

518
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 11: like close the elation that they have and what they

519
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 11: accomplished and they have done, and you can see that

520
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 11: there's been a process of meaning that has been created

521
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 11: through their various experiences.

522
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 9: So I mean that would be my brief summary.

523
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 5: I really enjoyed one of the last talks that was

524
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 5: specifically about a culture because I thought it really hit

525
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 5: on some of this. It was mostly talking about the

526
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 5: way that the occult has influenced art, and art has

527
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 5: influenced the occult. How artists end up using the metaphysical,

528
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 5: whether they are trying to do depictions that they can

529
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 5: communicate to others of metaphysical concepts and ideas, or connections

530
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 5: or contacts that they make, and one of the speaker's

531
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 5: examples was of Gustav Klimpt, or whether or not they

532
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 5: are making discourses on esotericism and trying to convey occult

533
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 5: concepts and ideas and explore them through visual mediums and so,

534
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 5: you know, like Alan Morre's Promethea or The Invisibles by

535
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 5: Grant Morrison, and I think he really got into a

536
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 5: little bit of the tension there because of an artist

537
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 5: as a seeker, and I think this also dives into

538
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 5: a lot of the people who are at magical conferences

539
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 5: is whether you're there as a seeker, which you know,

540
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: what are your needs, what are your desires?

541
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 9: What is that?

542
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 5: But then as a dweller are you creating as part

543
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 5: of a community. And everyone who came to this entire

544
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 5: conference wanted to create as part of a community, or

545
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 5: wanted to be part of a tradition, or feel like

546
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 5: they were part of a continuous thread that is both

547
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 5: creating and inventing and understanding the world in different ways

548
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 5: and able to communicate that to others who are also

549
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 5: trying to understand and communicate new information and new ideas

550
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 5: or existing ones even but just that continuous thread of

551
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 5: both creation and disseminating information back and forth. And I

552
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 5: think with magic as well, a lot of people might

553
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 5: get into it for a personal reason. But I do

554
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 5: think by the time you're coming to esoteric conferences with

555
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 5: people who are professors in ancient history giving lectures on

556
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 5: specific things, you're not necessarily just at the level of

557
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: being a personal seeker anymore, because you are trying to

558
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 5: find community. If you were just interested in personal seeking,

559
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 5: you'd meditate in your bedroom. But you're trying to find

560
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 5: a larger thread and a way of influencing the world

561
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 5: around you and also letting the world around you build

562
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 5: those relationships and influence you. And you are trying to

563
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 5: take an information to synthesize into something that is more

564
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 5: than just an idea you have, but something that you

565
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 5: can continue to communicate and use that to continue the

566
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 5: conversation with the world with other occultists, with other you know,

567
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 5: in this case historians and academics as well, and bring

568
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 5: those threads together and create something new out of it.

569
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: What new thing are they created? What do you mean

570
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 4: by that?

571
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 5: I think it gets into the idea of a culture

572
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 5: that was both you know, one of the beginning talks

573
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 5: of changing reality, but also at the end when they're

574
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 5: really going into hostuff.

575
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: Isn't about new things though, or generating new things about

576
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: trying to quote unquote they keep the old things all

577
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: live or like regress back into these into what would

578
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: they perceive as as these older practices, which may be

579
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 3: somewhat manufactured older practices, in which case it kind of

580
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: kind of it is a new thing. But under this

581
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: like this mask of you know, like like ancient knowledge.

582
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: There is certainly people who do want to generate this

583
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 3: this new thing. I think there is a lot of

584
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: people that are interested more in this, like uh, I

585
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 3: don't know who's a larger group, but I think there

586
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: is at least another another group of people who is

587
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 3: interested in this. Like the amount of times I heard

588
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: people talk about, you know, trying to keep like the

589
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 3: flame alive and talk about these like old old traditions

590
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 3: that they're participating in simply to like keep them going.

591
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: Not criticizing that, uh necessarily, but that that is also

592
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 3: another another like aspect of it, which I think hass

593
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 3: very limited. Like I think so some of these people

594
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: have very limited goals in actually like influencing culture, and

595
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: frankly like kind of want some of this stuff to

596
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: you know, remain you know, hidden in that they view

597
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 3: that as a more like you know, original or like

598
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: stable version of of magic, and are even frustrated by

599
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: like this you know, capitalist commodification of occultism and how

600
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: that's I think the word was like the benalization of

601
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: of of magic. As you you know, think about how

602
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: much of our of our pop cultures is influenced by

603
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: by esoteric concepts or imagery from you know, the Lord

604
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: of the Rings, to to people mentioned today, you know,

605
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 3: the Adams Family, Harry Potter, video games like The Witcher,

606
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 3: Assassin's Creed, even stuff like you know, Twin Peaks, I mean,

607
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 3: other stuff like the X Files, Doctor Strange, doctor Fate.

608
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: You know.

609
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: Comic books have been heavily occultic influence, and some attendees

610
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: verbalized a kind of frustration at that.

611
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 5: True, but a humongous portion of every evening was movies

612
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 5: and music and rituals and performance. Is that people are

613
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 5: also doing based on this, and they are trying to

614
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 5: integrate these concepts and then perform them there to show

615
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 5: their inspiration, to show it as to stir conversation, to

616
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 5: trigger some either sense of the sublime, or communicate some

617
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 5: sort of concept or emotion or feeling that they've gotten

618
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 5: out of this to other people, whether it was through music,

619
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 5: through the incredible art that there was in all of

620
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 5: the galleries, through performances, through filmmaking, So the creation aspect

621
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 5: of it was very, very tied to the entire event.

622
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, I think the one of the biggest manifestations

623
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: of this thing that you're talking about, like is in

624
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 3: music could like a throw a stone and be hard

625
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 3: not to hit and a cult musician in my life.

626
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 4: I guess I'm guilty of this.

627
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 13: Yes, I know, the.

628
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: Occult filmmaker even does have some like a contemporary tours.

629
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: I guess if you consider like Edgar's or people who

630
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: are influenced by esoterica who are making a big budget

631
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: Hollywood or you know, a twenty four style of popular films. Yeah,

632
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: certainly in music. I mean that it's like the main

633
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: performance outlet in this conference was was the theatrical musical performances.

634
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 3: There's very very few attendees of the film screenings upstairs.

635
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 11: I'm afraid perhaps respond to this too. I think it's

636
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 11: important that we actually look at the kind of composition

637
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 11: of conference goers themselves. Naturally, there's going to be solitary

638
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 11: practitioners that you know, come in or dabblers or people

639
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 11: who are just you know, like spooky things or musicians

640
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 11: these things. But we also have, you know, those who

641
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 11: are part of living traditions of magic, whether those are

642
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 11: reconstructed of authentic or not.

643
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 9: In the Oto or in.

644
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 11: You know, the Golden Dawn or other kind of orders,

645
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 11: there's reconstructionists that are actively attempting again to keep that

646
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 11: flame alive. To go back and to reconstruct, and then

647
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 11: you have these chaos magicians, chaos magicians, which like this

648
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 11: is a theme in the conversation that Elaine and I

649
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 11: have been having this entire time, because they explain to

650
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 11: like some aspect of chaos magic or I tend to

651
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 11: panel and on my response, you know, and again I

652
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 11: understand my complete bias here, as I just like, well,

653
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 11: that's fine, why don't you just do ancient magic. We

654
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 11: do the same thing. Why don't you just do ancient magic.

655
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 11: It's the same thing. And I think that that's actually

656
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 11: one of the difficulties here is that there is a

657
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 11: kind of you know, magical grammar to older practices. It

658
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 11: is like you know, if you look at the PGM,

659
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 11: it is this cosmopolitan practice and melding of like multiple

660
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 11: things together that works. But the argument that you know,

661
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 11: to go back to my favorite talk or one of

662
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 11: my favorite talks on the modern Gaashia, is that if

663
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 11: you want that continuity of that actual practice, it's a

664
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 11: closed one. You have to be an Orthodox, like you know,

665
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 11: the Orthodox Greek Church, and have a yayah who is

666
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 11: going to like teach you these things, and you know,

667
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 11: speak the language and so that's closed, or be a

668
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 11: member of a voodoo house, but that requires initiation and

669
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 11: like cross cultural contact and like engagement in a high

670
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 11: level of like language, skill and ability and money for

671
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 11: that matter. Yes, and most people don't have those kinds

672
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 11: of things. So you know, there those damn chaos magicians,

673
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 11: I find are the ones who are actively engaged in

674
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 11: the process of the creation of the new and I

675
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 11: think are probably more close to the heart of this

676
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 11: concept of a culture because they engage with it in

677
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 11: a way that is interestingly very anthropological, or at least

678
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 11: the best of them are dealing with it in a

679
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 11: way that is that is very anthropological. And I have

680
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 11: some sympathies there, and then there's some other ones that

681
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 11: I just don't quite understand, But that's a story for

682
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 11: another time. The talk that you were referring to, there

683
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 11: was two talks at the end that were particularly of worth,

684
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 11: well a lot of them were. All of the ones

685
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 11: at the end of are world of worth. But Francesco

686
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 11: Perinos a Culture the Material Cartography of Contemporary Spirituality and

687
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 11: the Art Arts, where he talks about the two different

688
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 11: approaches to studying a culture, and he talks about the

689
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 11: values and limitations of both, and you need an add

690
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 11: mixture of them both. But basically there's the sociological aspect

691
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 11: and the media studies aspect, which is the more academic

692
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 11: of the two, which involves basically what he argued a

693
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 11: secularization of the occults, and this really accounts for the

694
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 11: diffusion of like occult symbols and practices into music and

695
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 11: to culture. The Adams family is the example of that.

696
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 11: And then the second strain is then religious studies. So

697
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 11: the religious injection, injection excuse me into art of these

698
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 11: sacred or religious or transcendently magical spiritual principles. He went

699
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 11: over some limitations that was particularly good, but he breaks

700
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 11: this down into basically five areas where you have the

701
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 11: conception of art high and low mediatization versus mediation of art.

702
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 11: He gives the example of this is where the Morrison

703
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 11: comes in. But he gives the example of the mediatization

704
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 11: as Somerset maus the Magician based on Crowley. But again

705
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 11: like this diffusion of the figure of the magician completely

706
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 11: separated from like any actual magical practice. But just like

707
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 11: the figure, the aesthetics, the things that blend into the

708
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 11: secular culture and this example of mediation, this messianic approach,

709
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 11: as he described it, grant Morrison's comics as.

710
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 9: A gateway into reality.

711
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 11: But this also I think that Garrek carries onto your

712
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 11: question that you asked towards the end about twin peaks

713
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 11: the returns very specifically. You also have then the metaphysical

714
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 11: ontellgogy versus the performative antology, which Elaine talked about the

715
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 11: intention of the author, the perception of the audience, and

716
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 11: then the artist a seeker and the artists dweller, which

717
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 11: is also what you talked about too, This difference between

718
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 11: the ego versus tradition or orthodoxy, that the artist who

719
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 11: really inhabits that tradition, which again made me think about

720
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 11: the difficulties of doing kind of religious anthropology. And I

721
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 11: think of the example of a very famous book called

722
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,240
Speaker 11: Mamloa or Mama Lola Excuse Me by Karen McCarthy brown,

723
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 11: which is in ethymology looking at voodoo practice in a

724
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 11: very specific house in New York during a time period.

725
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 11: Karen lived with Mam Lola for a long time, but

726
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 11: really importantly, eventually Karen became a member of this voodoo house.

727
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 11: I think I can say that. I don't think I'm

728
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 11: any in trouble for saying this, but she No, it's

729
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 11: not in the book she but she represents a very

730
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 11: interesting approach to that, like anthropologist going native.

731
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 9: But this was the question that was asked towards the end.

732
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 11: Of this difference between the academic observer of these things

733
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 11: versus the practitioner, and I think that that really gets

734
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 11: to the heart of what it is that chaos magic

735
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 11: does and the cultural practice. That is that you are

736
00:44:53,640 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 11: producing culture, and you're very specifically producing this magical cult culture.

737
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 11: So it's a synthetic movement between these kind of like

738
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 11: two poles of the secular and of.

739
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 3: The sacred, of the magical, the kind of like I

740
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: guess prior to close up my notes here specifically the

741
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: stuff on twin Peaks Return, one of the last talks

742
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: was by Jeff Howard next stop Universe be the negatively

743
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: existent ones and universe be in contemporary culture, which was

744
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: discussing sort of like you know, mirror mirror world underworld

745
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 3: concept not not in like the Greek sense, but in

746
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 3: the occultism of.

747
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 4: The British occultist Kenneth Grant.

748
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: And this would probably be most most recognizable to people

749
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 3: as as the Black Laws and Twin Peaks is I

750
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 3: think one of the better depictions of this sort of

751
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 3: concept is some limited version, but but I think it

752
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: gets at the the kind of heart of the concept

753
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 3: in a way. And he gave this Gibbs talk where

754
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 3: he was explaining the risks and and the great power

755
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 3: that that you can that you can personally achieve through

756
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: contacting these negatively existent ones or like accessing the magical

757
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: potential of this sort of like mirror mirror, you know,

758
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 3: negative universe to our own, and talked about a little

759
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:43,479
Speaker 3: bit of Dereta and various varius other stuff, but from

760
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: the perspective mainly as a practitioner of love of like

761
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 3: you know, the the danger and the and the benefits

762
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: of doing this this sort of magic as written by

763
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: Kenth Grant. Jeff Howard did discuss the Twin Peaks and

764
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: the use of Kenth Grant's specifically in two weeks the Return,

765
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: and I asked him in the panel afterwards, like how

766
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: how how can you like balance these these these two

767
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 3: forms of working with occultism or like, like what what

768
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 3: is the difference in these two forms of working with occultism.

769
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 3: You have on one hand, this this practitioner aspect where

770
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: you're using it to gain power or induce like limit

771
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 3: experiences like induce you know, religious or transcendental experiences that

772
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 3: change your own perception of like sensory reality, Versus the

773
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 3: way that Mark Frost utilized Kenneth Grant's magical world in

774
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: writing and co creating a Twin Peaks through Return, which

775
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 3: I can argue is a much more effective use of

776
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: magic and exposes millions of people to Kenneth Grant's concepts,

777
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 3: who people who are never going to read books by

778
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 3: a relatively niche British occultists, which are books which are

779
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 3: actually very very hard to find now and both you know,

780
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 3: getting going into the mauve zone and accessing these non

781
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 3: existent being and beings which don't have existent properties versus

782
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 3: phenomenons which are existent but lack any core sense of being.

783
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 3: And how Mark Frost, as I'm not sure if you

784
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 3: would consider himself a magician, but certainly has an interest

785
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: in magic and the occult more so than Lynch does.

786
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: Lynch's stuff is more bastardized Hinduism, but Frost's use of

787
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 3: these concepts I think constitutes an effective contemporary version of

788
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 3: magical practice, just as valid as chanting and meditating and

789
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: closing your eyes, and in some ways, I would argue

790
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: even more effective because Twin Peaks The Return has existed

791
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 3: as both like an evocative force of for a second,

792
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 3: invoke certain certain you know, concepts or philosophies quote unquote entities,

793
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 3: if you will, as well as a tool of divination

794
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: as Twin Peaks, The Return forecasts American decline and the

795
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 3: nostalgic loop that our culture is stuck in, which is

796
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 3: just eating itself, and all of those things are major

797
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 3: aspects of what that show is doing, and it uses

798
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 3: Kenneth Grant's concepts to get there. And I think that

799
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 3: that is a cultural project. Though that's not a solitary

800
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 3: magical practice where you're just meditating alone to try to

801
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: induce some sort of vision. It is a cultural It's

802
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 3: influenced culture. It is probably one of the most well

803
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 3: regarded artistic feats of the twenty first century. That's a

804
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: longer version of the question I gave, and the guy

805
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 3: did give kind of an answer, which was basically just

806
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 3: about trying to you should like balance these two things.

807
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: You should try to do both. You should try to

808
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: engage as a solitary practitioner for whatever goals you may have,

809
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: But it would be a mistake to not try to

810
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 3: use this in some sort of like a cultural capacity

811
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: to influence culture. But it's still that that operates on

812
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: like this, I guess what was trying to get it

813
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 3: is like this, similar to the the scholar and the

814
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 3: practitioner as a false dichotomy, I think this is the

815
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 3: same thing as this This a cultural version of what

816
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: Frost is doing as oppose to a like an actual practitioner.

817
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 3: I think I think what Frost's doing is using kind

818
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: of in a chast magic sense, so not for I

819
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 3: guess chaotic means, but he's using the contemporary tools of

820
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 3: filmmaking and of writing to affect and induce change into

821
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 3: the world.

822
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 4: That is a more powerful form of magic.

823
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 3: Is luckily that was distributed by paramount showtime, which you

824
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 3: know certainly helped in the same way. You know Fox

825
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: News is useful or effective as a magical generator because

826
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 3: of the reach that they have. But I think Frost

827
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 3: is just as effective as a magician, if not more

828
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 3: so than I would say any of the people attending

829
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 3: this conference.

830
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 11: The other elements I think of that the talk that

831
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 11: Jeff Howard provided there too, I think that, you know,

832
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 11: again I agree with you, gaire. But he also at

833
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 11: length talked about Andrew Chumley and specifically the rights of

834
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 11: the Amethystine light in the Azoetia page three hundred and

835
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 11: forty seven, where he reviews a bunch of like non

836
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 11: nouns and things that are there. And Chumley himself is

837
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 11: you know, responsible the founder of the cult de Sabbati

838
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 11: and is you know, a contributor to the revival of

839
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 11: what Trucks's traditional English witchcraft, which is not necessarily a

840
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 11: solitary practice, but it is, it is, it is in

841
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 11: many cases most of these English witches are are are

842
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 11: pretty solitary.

843
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 9: They talk. There are you know, treaties.

844
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 11: That they write and and grimoires that are you know,

845
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 11: hard to get a hold of. That I think they

846
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 11: probably exist in PDFs. Make good choices about how you

847
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 11: get your digital content.

848
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 9: But I mean again, that was the tension. He spent

849
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 9: a lot of time talking.

850
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 11: About that individual ritual, which you know, you present Frost

851
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 11: as somebody who's popularizing these ideas to a larger culture

852
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 11: and making this understandable and providing them an opportunity to

853
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 11: you know, not just meditate, but to think and engage

854
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 11: with these concepts.

855
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 3: Because of his work, you can think about like the

856
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 3: allegory of Agent Cooper and the ways that that he

857
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 3: fails and succeeds to navigate a strange and confusing world

858
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 3: and affect change in the world, and his relationship to

859
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 3: women and saving women, and you can you can you

860
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 3: can use that as like an actual like you can

861
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 3: refer to that as as a concept, and that that

862
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 3: builds on some of the you know, world building of Grant,

863
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: but now you know it's a it's a cultural dialogue

864
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 3: that we can have about Agent Cooper and Laura Palmer

865
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 3: and how that I think can be a positive addition

866
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 3: to culture by using occult elements.

867
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 11: Or you can buy an exceedingly expensive grimoire from a

868
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 11: rare antiquarian bookseller that was published only in two thousand

869
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 11: and four that there's there's a limited number it's been

870
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 11: passed on, or you could get that PDF online. But

871
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 11: who has the time to actually read through this. There's

872
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 11: theseultural context that don't make sense. There's these concepts that

873
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 11: it refers to in a clear network that requires scholarship

874
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 11: for you to even do that individualized practice. That's a

875
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 11: big ask for most people to start to think magically

876
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 11: in a popularized kind of way and seems contrary than

877
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 11: to this conception of a culture, which brings me to

878
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 11: the last talk by Carl Abrahamson, the meeting with remarkable Magicians,

879
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 11: which really tied all of this together. Tied all of

880
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 11: these threads together in a really interesting way, as relationship

881
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 11: with Genesis, Peorage, with Kenneth Anger, and with Anton Leavy.

882
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 11: But that was as another interesting aspect of somebody who

883
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 11: is doing practice and engaging in community and bringing people together.

884
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 11: But ultimately, the question, Elaine, that you and I talked

885
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 11: about at the end was, you know, beyond the and

886
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 11: it relates immediately to what Garet was talking about here,

887
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 11: beyond the personal practice in magic. What goals should a

888
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 11: culture have and how can it incorporate its actual goals

889
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 11: and ideas into the larger society with the same success

890
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 11: that the esthetics that you know have been incorporated into

891
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 11: the culture. And I think one of the difficulties that

892
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 11: you have there in this individuated practice is that when

893
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 11: you look at a figure like Genesis, pureage. You can

894
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 11: see that there's a very clear project when you look,

895
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 11: and this is going back to the Barosian element, right,

896
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 11: is that there was a clear practice there. There was

897
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 11: a clear kind of like a goal to change culture.

898
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 11: Whether that was just purely for the sake of change,

899
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:37,919
Speaker 11: I mean, it wasn't just kind of like the cult

900
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,479
Speaker 11: of action for the sake of action. There was some

901
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 11: kind of personal political radical project that we can go

902
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 11: back and enumerate that they enumerated at the time that

903
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 11: was separate from I mean, that wasn't said immediately in

904
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 11: the same breath as the and now we do this practice.

905
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 11: They did the practice, they did the art and I

906
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 11: think that one of my response that question is I

907
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 11: don't see an articulation of a political or social project

908
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 11: that is a tied to a culture in these practices.

909
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 11: There's a lot of and this is a very academic practice,

910
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 11: a lot of people coming into a room and asking

911
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 11: what would it look like if, And to ask what

912
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 11: would it look like if is not the same thing

913
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 11: as let's do a thing, let's actually go out and

914
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 11: evoke change, or this is the project, now, let's create

915
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 11: a plan in a movement. Instead, it is this like

916
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 11: nominalization process of predetermining ends before we even get there

917
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 11: based on theoretical assumptions. And I think that that's contrary

918
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 11: to the very idea of magic as practice. Magic is

919
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 11: doing something in the world in these kinds of veins.

920
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,919
Speaker 11: So that's the thing that I would like to see,

921
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 11: and I feel like that's something that was getting at

922
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 11: at the end. But that's the kind of thing that

923
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 11: brings people together to think conceptually, to focus on an

924
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 11: idea that we share and to discuss with one another.

925
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 8: I mean, on that note, I for context, I've I'm

926
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 8: well still am like part of a chaosmogic group called

927
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 8: the Domus Kayotka Marauder Underground or DKMU, who very much

928
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 8: is about that. It's like like establishing like the mid

929
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 8: early two thousands if I remember correctly, But it's very

930
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 8: much about this core idea of the assault against reality

931
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 8: of I guess like remistifying the world or like making

932
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 8: weird shit happen through what they what they call the

933
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 8: Alysian network. With Ellis's like one of the goddesses of

934
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 8: the DKMU, And it's very much like that sort of

935
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 8: mix between magic, personal practice, community and like a somewhat unified,

936
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 8: but also decentralized like accult war. Like there's a political

937
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 8: statement to it at the end, which there needs to

938
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 8: be more of personally speaking.

939
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was like some vague gesturing towards like politics

940
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 3: beyond you know, the mention of you know, magic as

941
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 3: a form of resistance in the in the opening, a

942
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 3: little paragraph on the program that they handed out, Like

943
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 3: there was specifically in the politics of Tarot block one

944
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 3: of the talks about the history of the Emperor and

945
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 3: the herofint card, the speaker referred to the United States

946
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 3: as having an emperor crisis right now. But that was

947
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 3: kind of it that the rest of the talk was

948
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 3: purely historical. The talk before that was on queering the Tarot,

949
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 3: trying to free Taro from heteronormative readings.

950
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 9: And discussed.

951
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 4: And discussed a few.

952
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 3: You know, artists, discussed a few artists who are attempting

953
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 3: to do this, whether through abstracting the humanoid forms in

954
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: the tarot or reflecting the tarot figures to be more

955
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 3: representative of quote unquote queer idea of these. That was

956
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 3: kind of it in terms of the political aspect, which

957
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 3: is I guess kind of lacking as much as they

958
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 3: want this to be a culture, they don't want this

959
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: to be a political conference, it seems. And I think,

960
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 3: you know, if everyone you know in their talk had

961
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 3: to have some section on like you know, communism or

962
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 3: it fascism or whatever, that probably would have been bad.

963
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 4: And that's that's not what we're saying.

964
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 3: But I mean, specifically, I think if they're naming this

965
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 3: after Genesis Porridge, they were using a term bytch Genesis

966
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 3: port who had a very strong idea of why they

967
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 3: were doing this work. And specifically, I was very frustrated

968
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: in the way people talked about Genesis at the conference,

969
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 3: who almost all of them misgendered Genesis and refused to

970
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: discuss that length. Some of them they mentioned it, but

971
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 3: discussed like Genesis porge is. One of her core of

972
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 3: occult practices was on androgenizing herself, androgyny projects androgyny and

973
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 3: like breaking and Breaking gender, which they framed as an

974
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 3: occult project, and yet even people who she knew at

975
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 3: the conference would only refer to them as a hymn

976
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 3: through all the talks, including the last guy, Carl Abronson,

977
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 3: who heard a biography, Yeah, and like this is this

978
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 3: is I do not think this was out of like

979
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 3: you know, malice. I think this was just a linguistic

980
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 3: blockage for some people who may not even been thinking

981
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 3: about what they were doing. But it shows like an

982
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 3: actual disconnect from engaging with the real purpose of magic

983
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 3: or at least what I would would argue that is,

984
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: and what I would you know, suppose genesis penrogyny project

985
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 3: as a as a form of magic. But this, this,

986
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 3: this kind of demonstrates the very limited political application for

987
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 3: quote unquote unque resistance, since that's the term they're using,

988
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: not not me, which kind of underlines this this, this

989
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 3: whole this whole conference. I mean, I think the Borough's

990
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 3: talk was probably the most the very first Burroughs talk,

991
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 3: which we opened up the last episode with, is the

992
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: most you know, explicitly political one and talking about you know,

993
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 3: going against control, freedom in this like anarchic or libertarian sense,

994
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 3: or you know, revolt against monotheism.

995
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 8: I suppose, like one of my frustrations as well, is

996
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 8: this the constant mention of the c cru which nobody

997
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 8: ever went into depth on, but which you know, for

998
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 8: all its faults, and you know, nick Land being nick

999
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 8: Land was very much like a sort of like radical

1000
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 8: cultural Marxists like Project Right. It's like cybernetic Marxism mixed

1001
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 8: with like Crowley and some content whatever. But is extremely

1002
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 8: frustrating to see, yeah, that sort of refusal to engage

1003
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 8: with like the political stuff of it.

1004
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 4: Because like even before.

1005
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 8: Like Psychic Youth, there was like Throbbing Gristle, the Genesis

1006
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 8: band that pioneered industrial music, who I mean this was

1007
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 8: a bit before punk music, but like it very much

1008
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 8: played with like the same sort of shock aesthetics that

1009
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 8: like the early punks would wear swastikas, where like Throbbing

1010
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 8: Whistle had the logo is very much like a lightning

1011
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 8: bolt with like black and red and white.

1012
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 3: Genesis her self engaged in some of this uh stuff,

1013
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 3: not from a fascist perspective, but from a provocative perspective,

1014
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 3: which I mean you can certainly criticize uh Psychic TV

1015
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 3: and and and and her for as many many people have,

1016
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 3: But I.

1017
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 8: Mean, shock value is kind of overrated nowadays with like

1018
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 8: internet actual words. But I very much believed that occultism

1019
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 8: being this, you know, this collection of practices that have

1020
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 8: been very censored and you know, punished by like the

1021
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 8: church and such things, and like I guess these systems

1022
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 8: of control were like I guess I take issue with

1023
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 8: like the oh, it's like all fun and all and

1024
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 8: light and love and whatever. But there's like a radical

1025
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 8: element to occultism and a radical possibility to use occultism

1026
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 8: to again, like the whole cultural the idea between personal

1027
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 8: practice and cultural production, right, like creating cultural artifacts and

1028
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 8: putting them out into the world. Being very proactive with

1029
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 8: the shaping and the pushing of radical ideas and possibilities

1030
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 8: is a very potent thing to be to do. And

1031
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 8: the sort of I guess like liberalized or like neoliberal

1032
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 8: idea of like the personal practice and like I'm changing

1033
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 8: my perceptions and all these things are fine, but it's

1034
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 8: more like self soothing than it is about creating change

1035
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 8: into the world.

1036
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 5: If you're not actually changing anything, are you doing magic exactly?

1037
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 8: At least that would be my well, that would be

1038
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 8: my argument for like for coming from the chaosmotic perspective.

1039
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 11: This gets to another kind of trite and facile academic

1040
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 11: thematic that is present and prevalent for the past probably

1041
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 11: twenty years. At this point, I feel like at most

1042
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 11: philosophy and political science political theory conferences where The question

1043
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 11: is not just what would it look like if, but

1044
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 11: you know, to think otherwise, you know, think otherwise than

1045
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 11: we have.

1046
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 9: And usually it's this, how do.

1047
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 11: We think other than we have? Those kinds of things?

1048
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 11: And so it I mean again, magic and as we've

1049
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 11: been talking about here is meant to evoke change in

1050
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 11: the world, to cause change the world in conformity with reality.

1051
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 11: We're going to use you know, with with will if

1052
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 11: we're going to use the Crowley you know definition here,

1053
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 11: which I think is fine.

1054
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:45,959
Speaker 7: Great.

1055
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 11: I want a goth girlfriend, thankfully you can talk to AI,

1056
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 11: but I'm worried that she might beat you.

1057
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 5: That you kill her like all my old tamagotchis.

1058
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 11: But this is the issue that we are talking around,

1059
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 11: that the conference and a culture has been talking around,

1060
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 11: and the political problematic that we're all dealing with right

1061
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 11: now is how the fuck do we evoke change the world?

1062
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 11: How is it when systems of institutional representation within politics

1063
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 11: and power failed to represent the will of the people,

1064
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 11: how do the people make change?

1065
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 4: And every and it feels like everything's been tried.

1066
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 3: I mean, this is where I mean Fisher, who I

1067
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: would argue is at least in a cultist or is

1068
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 3: at least has some mystical aspect, if not was at

1069
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 3: some point in occultist like you know, reached out. The

1070
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 3: point of capitalist realism is like most things that we

1071
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 3: you know, can think of, we actually have. We have

1072
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 3: given a shot, including including occultism. We have we have

1073
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 3: tried to do this, and yet here we are. The

1074
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 3: world maybe not as bad as it has been, but

1075
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 3: it's not in a great spot. I think everyone listening

1076
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 3: to this would certainly understand that. I think most people

1077
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 3: at the conference understood that. And yeah, I mean I'm

1078
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 3: very skeptical of magic as as a as a as

1079
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 3: certainly as an individual practice as a way to you know,

1080
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 3: cause larger political change. But even you know, can there

1081
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 3: even in this this revolves back to the concept of

1082
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 3: a culture, like can there even be an a cult anymore?

1083
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 3: Because none of these you know, magical things are very

1084
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 3: hidden anymore. They're all very accessible. They're all very visible.

1085
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 3: They're they're as you know hidden as as a queer

1086
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 3: flagging is right as as as an occult as an

1087
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 3: occultic ritual of you know, hidden signs to communicate with

1088
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 3: other people in the know. Something that is now you

1089
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 3: could just look up on the Internet, and I think

1090
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 3: occult occult practices and symbols have reached the same point.

1091
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 3: It's it's content. I mean, I like the Esoterica YouTube

1092
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 3: channel as much as us as much as much as

1093
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,959
Speaker 3: the next person, But I mean, are these things even

1094
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 3: occult anymore?

1095
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 11: Well, that also speaks to the fundamental tension between this

1096
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 11: current at the conference and the other current at the conference,

1097
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 11: which was the much more traditional magical practices or the

1098
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 11: folk magical practices or what we would.

1099
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 5: Regulate like stant magical practice.

1100
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, extant magical practices that weren't you know, weren't suppressed

1101
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 11: by Christianity, but carried over. So you have you had

1102
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 11: a section on Coimbanda, you had a section on Palamajumbe.

1103
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 11: You have the Roman magical school that is being founded

1104
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 11: in Romania, and you have the modern goeesha vi aethis right,

1105
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 11: which we identified very clearly as a practice that continues

1106
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 11: to this very day. The context in which we understand

1107
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 11: that practice is not a cult secret like in the No,

1108
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 11: it's just that like it's the stuff that you grew

1109
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 11: up with, it's every day and in that case, it's

1110
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 11: not transformative because it's just part of your daily existence.

1111
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 11: It's a kind of enchantment that by and large are

1112
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 11: kind of like you know, European Protestant Catholic defectors, whatever

1113
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 11: has brought you to the ocult in the first place,

1114
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 11: don't experience as a community or community engagement. But those

1115
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 11: are also things that can get deeply conservative.

1116
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 5: They are. But also the parts of those practices that

1117
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 5: do require initiation, that are not something that everyone's grandmother

1118
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 5: is doing, are also community based and exists specifically in

1119
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 5: and for community, and you know, as occult projects that

1120
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 5: have influenced the world, the Haitian Revolution.

1121
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 9: The good Revolution that we should all be talking about.

1122
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: You.

1123
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, but these things do. But I mean the occult

1124
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 5: has bubbled to the surface in material ways, very very

1125
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 5: explicitly in some instances, and so I think there could

1126
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 5: be potential. But it does require being in community and

1127
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 5: being in service of community, even if it's not a

1128
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 5: practice that is being practiced by every single person around you.

1129
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 11: To be an on gun or a mambo in Haitian

1130
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 11: voodoo is to serve the community. It's not simply just

1131
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 11: a matter of magical wu or something like that, or

1132
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 11: the personal accumulation of power in some sort of like

1133
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 11: individual sense. Now you're you're serving your community. That's what

1134
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 11: it is that you're doing. It's first and foremost a service.

1135
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 11: Position on Haitian Revolution. Look, I understand this like the

1136
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 11: American standing the American Revolution makes you, I guess a

1137
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 11: classical liberal or whatever it is that you fetishized that into.

1138
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 11: If you're opposed to the French Revolution, that makes you

1139
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 11: a you know, classical conservative.

1140
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 14: Right.

1141
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 11: If you stand the Haitian Revolution, I guess that makes

1142
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 11: you a radical. The myth, the legend, the discussion, this

1143
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 11: understanding is that the Haitian Revolution was sparked by the

1144
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 11: possession of the low law. Specifically is Ali Danto, who

1145
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 11: you know, sacrificed a pig. There's there's depictions of this

1146
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 11: and Haitian art all over the place. This leads to

1147
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 11: you know, slave uprisings, rebellions, revolution, well organized. Fantastic, Yeah,

1148
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 11: magical practice and action.

1149
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 3: And that wraps up our panel discussion on the twenty

1150
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 3: twenty five Culture Conference. Thanks again to Delta, Ryan and

1151
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 3: Lane for joining me in this magical journey to Berlin.

1152
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:11,440
Speaker 3: And now I will start the tedious process of transcribing

1153
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 3: all of the talks I recorded and writing my written

1154
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 3: report on the a Culture Conference, where I can go

1155
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 3: into a bit more depth into some of these topics

1156
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,719
Speaker 3: and reach a personal conclusion on the role of occultism

1157
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 3: and its ability to infest, influence, or undermine culture versus

1158
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 3: culture's capacity of eating away at the occult. That report

1159
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: should be coming out before the end of the year.

1160
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 3: See you on the other side.

1161
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:57,879
Speaker 15: A warning this episode includes violent content which some listeners

1162
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 15: might find disturbing.

1163
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 16: I'm Michael Phillips, an historian and the author of a

1164
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 16: history of racism in Dallas called White Metropolis, and the

1165
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 16: co author, with longtime journalists Betsy Freoff, of a history

1166
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,320
Speaker 16: of eugenics in Texas called A Purifying Knife.

1167
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:20,560
Speaker 15: And I'm Stephen Monchelli, a journalist in Dallas who specializes

1168
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 15: covering political extremism and far right internet culture for publications

1169
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 15: like The Texas Observer, The Barbed Wire and others.

1170
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,160
Speaker 16: On December seventh, nineteen eighty two, the state of Texas

1171
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 16: made history in a particularly grim way. It became the

1172
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,679
Speaker 16: first government anywhere in the world to put a prisoner

1173
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:42,680
Speaker 16: to death by lethal injection. This innovation was meant to

1174
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 16: make the grizzly business of executing murderers, swift, in humane.

1175
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,720
Speaker 15: More accurately, it was meant to convince the witnesses of executions,

1176
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,639
Speaker 15: and by extension, the general public, that what they were

1177
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 15: watching didn't violate the United States Constitution's Eighth Amendment ban

1178
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 15: on rule and unusual punishment. In fact, lethal injection is

1179
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 15: based on junk science, and those who die that way

1180
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 15: may actually suffer more and over a longer time than

1181
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,760
Speaker 15: prisoners who were executed by electric chairs six decades ago.

1182
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,479
Speaker 16: In many ways, lethal injection is a con game designed

1183
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 16: to hide from the public that their government is torturing

1184
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 16: prisoners to death. As the University of Richmond law professor

1185
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 16: Brenna Lane, the author of recently published book Secrets of

1186
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,840
Speaker 16: the Killing State, The Untold Story of Lethal Injection, told us.

1187
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 17: What I've come to conclude is that lethal injection only

1188
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:43,600
Speaker 17: does one thing, well only one, and that is it

1189
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 17: hides what the death penalty is. It hides the violence

1190
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 17: of the death penalty, of what state killing actually is.

1191
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 17: And I remember reading it's not.

1192
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 1: The book, I kind of wish it I had put

1193
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,600
Speaker 1: it in there, but I remember reading this phrase, the

1194
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: heart stops reluctantly.

1195
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:04,599
Speaker 15: Over the next three episodes of It Could Happen Here,

1196
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 15: We're going to examine the shady business of state killing.

1197
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 15: We'll share the twisted tale of the lethal injection and

1198
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 15: the unqualified people who designed the protocol. We'll talk about

1199
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 15: the untrained personnel who carry out the executions, and how

1200
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 15: pressure from drug companies who didn't want their products associated

1201
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 15: with death chambers have led prison officials in Texas and

1202
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:28,440
Speaker 15: elsewhere to lie to those corporations or buy the drugs illegally.

1203
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 16: We'll also talk about the pain the condemns suffer and

1204
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 16: speak with people who have accompanied those sons to death

1205
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 16: in their final moments. We'll speak to a priest, Jeff Hood, who,

1206
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 16: as of this broadcast, has been the last friend of

1207
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 16: ten men as they died by state command.

1208
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 7: It's incredibly strange to see someone hooked up to machines

1209
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 7: that look like they're there to support life, and yet

1210
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 7: you know that they're there to take his life.

1211
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 4: Well.

1212
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 16: Tell the story of one heroic Texas man, raised Boo Yon,

1213
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 16: who was blinded in one eye during a hate crime

1214
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,799
Speaker 16: but thought to stop the execution of his white supremacist attacker,

1215
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 16: who was enraged by the terrorist attacks of September eleventh

1216
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 16: in two thousand and one, and committed two Dallas area

1217
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:20,520
Speaker 16: murders in a shooting spree.

1218
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 12: Well, definitely in this execution that was not for the victims,

1219
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 12: because the victims and the victims' family members requested and

1220
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 12: also fought for clemency. We went ahead and requested the

1221
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 12: Governor of Texas, the Board of Burdens and Paroles that

1222
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 12: did not execute him in our names in a show Marci,

1223
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 12: but looks like you know, we are not in the

1224
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 12: same page. The system wanted to move forward, so it

1225
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 12: was not in our names. It was basically just to

1226
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 12: uphold the verdict and to keep the system running, sending

1227
01:13:55,479 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 12: people to the executions without thinking how this execution is

1228
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,640
Speaker 12: actually going to help the society, How is going to

1229
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 12: help people.

1230
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,759
Speaker 15: Finally, we'll look at the future of the death penalty,

1231
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 15: which has become increasingly unpopular with the public, even as

1232
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 15: politicians continue to happily embrace it. But before we explore

1233
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,839
Speaker 15: this dark and fascinating story, we'll hear a few messages

1234
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,840
Speaker 15: from our sponsors, which I hope do not include producers

1235
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 15: of the chemicals used in the lethal injection.

1236
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 16: The founders of the British colonies that became the United

1237
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 16: States brought with them the often sadistic traditions of capital

1238
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 16: punishment prevalent in sixteenth and seventeenth century Europe. Their royal

1239
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 16: executioners dispatched their victims by boiling them alive, burning them

1240
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 16: at the stake, tying them to horses that pull them

1241
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,639
Speaker 16: limb from limb, sawing them in half, and beheading them.

1242
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 16: Such elaborate executions were meant to understand or the absolute

1243
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 16: power of monarchs, as the political scientist Austin Sarat noted

1244
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 16: in his book grew some spectacles, botched executions and America's

1245
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 16: death penalty quote. Capital punishment was precisely about the right

1246
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 16: of the state that kills it pleased live, but lived

1247
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 16: by the grace of the sovereign. Live, but remember that

1248
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 16: your life belongs to the state.

1249
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 15: However, even before the American Revolution, those living in the

1250
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 15: American colonies embraced less exotic forms of capital punishment. In

1251
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 15: sixteen oh eight, authorities in Virginia hanged George Kendall, who

1252
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,360
Speaker 15: was accused of being a spy for the Spanish Empire.

1253
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 15: That was the first execution in the British colonies in

1254
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 15: North America that later became part of the United States.

1255
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 15: Inspired by the Old Testament legal code, the thirteen British

1256
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 15: Colonies put prisoners to death for a variety of misdeeds,

1257
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:59,440
Speaker 15: including stealing food or horses, killing a neighbor's dog or chickens, bestiality, blasphemy, idolatry,

1258
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 15: witch a sodomy, adultery, statutory rape, perjury in a capital trial, insurrection,

1259
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 15: trees in, manslaughter, and of course, murder.

1260
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:14,360
Speaker 16: Eager to distinguish themselves from decadent, cruel European monarchs, in

1261
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 16: seventeen eighty nine, the First Congress of the United States

1262
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 16: submitted to the States the Eighth Amendment to the United

1263
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 16: States Constitution, which banned quote cruel and unusual punishments. The

1264
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 16: required number of states ratified the amendment seventeen ninety one.

1265
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 16: From colonial times until the first use of the electric

1266
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 16: chair in New York in eighteen ninety, condemned prisoners in

1267
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:37,720
Speaker 16: the United States usually died at the end of a

1268
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 16: hangman's rope. More than half the essays sixteen thousand executions

1269
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 16: in all of US history have been by hanging. Hanging

1270
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 16: was seen as a huge civilizational leap over, for instance,

1271
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 16: skinning prisoners alive.

1272
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 15: As products of the Enlightenment era, early American leaders like

1273
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 15: Thomas Jefferson campaigned to make sure that the punishments fit

1274
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 15: the crime and that no one was executed for relatively

1275
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:07,759
Speaker 15: minor offenses. Beginning with Pennsylvania in seventeen ninety four, several

1276
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 15: states such as Vermont, Maryland, and New Hampshire sharply reduced

1277
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:13,839
Speaker 15: the number of crimes that could result in the death penalty.

1278
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 15: Perhaps not surprisingly, the South went in the opposite direction.

1279
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,719
Speaker 16: There, the white population lived in fear of the enslaved

1280
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:26,960
Speaker 16: African Americans they bought, sold, rape, whipped, and relentlessly forced

1281
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 16: to work without pay. Whites reported laying sleepless at night

1282
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 16: imagining what might happen if they faced justice for their

1283
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 16: crimes they wanted the African Americans they so abused, the

1284
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 16: fear of the consequences of any form of resistance.

1285
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,439
Speaker 15: After repeated failed rebellions from seventeen oh four to eighteen

1286
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 15: thirty one, as well as the Haitian Revolution, which saw

1287
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 15: the death of many, if not all, slave owners in Haiti,

1288
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,720
Speaker 15: legislators in the South greatly expanded the range of offenses

1289
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 15: for which enslaved African Americans and their suspected white allies

1290
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 15: could be executed. Enlightenment ideas were not extended to African Americans,

1291
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 15: who were subjected to fatal tortures as excruciating as any

1292
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 15: experienced by accused heretics during the Inquisition. In Europe, enslave

1293
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 15: men and women accused of rebellion or of trying to

1294
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:20,520
Speaker 15: escape their captivity faced dismemberment or being burned with hot irons.

1295
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 15: This legacy of violence in the South contributed to the

1296
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,959
Speaker 15: region's long term love affair with capital punishment.

1297
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 16: However, even hangings promoted as a kindly our way to

1298
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 16: kill became a horror show. In Europe, executioners were trained

1299
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:39,439
Speaker 16: professionals who quickly gained a lot of experience. In the

1300
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:43,599
Speaker 16: United States, such killings were done by local officials, often sheriffs,

1301
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 16: who might have little or no experience at the gallows.

1302
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 16: Executioners had to do some complicated math in order to

1303
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:53,559
Speaker 16: do their jobs correctly. That to calculate the weight of

1304
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 16: the victim and ratio to the length of the rope

1305
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:59,479
Speaker 16: and the likely speed at which the condemned prisoner would

1306
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 16: drop through the trapdoor at the bottom of the gallows.

1307
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 16: If the executioner calculated correctly, the prisoner's neck would break

1308
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 16: at the end of the fall, theoretically killing the unfortunate

1309
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:14,799
Speaker 16: victim instantly. Hanging was supposed to be clean and efficient,

1310
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 16: like the hanging carried out by the US Army at

1311
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 16: the beginning of the movie The Dirty Dozen, What did.

1312
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 7: You think of the hanging?

1313
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:24,040
Speaker 14: Look very efficient?

1314
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:29,720
Speaker 15: Authorities told themselves that hanging, when carried out appropriately and properly,

1315
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 15: was painless. That thesis, however, was obviously impossible to prove.

1316
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 15: For decades, hangings were public, and a set of religious

1317
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 15: rituals revolved and evolved around these events, with notable exceptions.

1318
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 15: Before the news was placed around their necks, the condemned

1319
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 15: told the sad tale of what led them to such

1320
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 15: a terrible fate. They repented their terrible crimes and begged

1321
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,680
Speaker 15: God and society for forgiveness. The idea was that the

1322
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 15: death penalty would teach the masses that crime doesn't pay. Reality, however,

1323
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 15: often strayed from this script.

1324
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 16: Pretty early on, the leaders of the American Republic realized

1325
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 16: that the death penalty was actually morally corrupting, though most

1326
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 16: of them continued to support it. Benjamin Rush, who signed

1327
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 16: the Declaration of Independence, decried what he called the death

1328
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 16: penalties quote brutalizing effect. Rush became one of the earliest

1329
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:27,280
Speaker 16: voices for abolition of capital punishment. He argued that state

1330
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 16: violence made ordinary citizens more violent, and.

1331
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 15: There's reason to believe that's true. Consider the crowds that

1332
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:38,160
Speaker 15: often watched hangings and got drunk, and sometimes fights broke

1333
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 15: out as witnesses battled over the best view of the gallows.

1334
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:46,719
Speaker 15: Postcards and mementoes were made of famous lynchings in places

1335
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,479
Speaker 15: like Dallas, Texas, and fights sometimes resulted in injury or death.

1336
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:54,759
Speaker 15: Some of the crowds would spend their time at hangings,

1337
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 15: not learning somber moral lessons, but in fact picking the

1338
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 15: pockets of other witnesses caught up in the drama unfolding

1339
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 15: the gallows and executions were often followed by hours of looting,

1340
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 15: arson assaults, another mayhem, as the public would engage in writing,

1341
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 15: not unlike modern cities when they celebrate a home team's

1342
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 15: win at the World Series. These unruly mobs unnerved the

1343
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 15: upper class, and, starting with Rhode Island in eighteen thirty three,

1344
01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 15: states began to move hangings inside prison walls away from

1345
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 15: the public view. By eighteen forty five, public executions had

1346
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,240
Speaker 15: been banned in all of New England. This upset death

1347
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 15: penalty abolitionists, who hoped that the routine horrors that unfolded

1348
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 15: during executions might lead to the end of capital punishment.

1349
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 15: Thus began the process where state governments increasingly killed people

1350
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 15: in the name of the public, and a process shrouded

1351
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 15: in secrecy. Meanwhile, it's no secret that we have to

1352
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 15: pay our bills, so we'll be back after a few

1353
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 15: words from our sponsors.

1354
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 16: In eighteen ninety nine, in Samson County, North Carolina, a

1355
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:12,120
Speaker 16: local hothead named Art Kinsall's got into a heated exchange

1356
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 16: with a neighbor, John C. Herring, at a country's store.

1357
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 16: During the fight, Kinsalls grabbed a butcher knife and repeatedly

1358
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 16: stabbed Herring, killing him. A few days later, he was

1359
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 16: arrested for the murder, but he escaped. He was on

1360
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 16: the loose for nine months. After a gunfight with a

1361
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:32,280
Speaker 16: sheriff's posse, he was captured, put on trial, found guilty,

1362
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 16: and sentenced to die by hanging. There the story got messy.

1363
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 16: We'll repeat what we're about to say may be upsetting

1364
01:22:40,439 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 16: to some listeners. Kinsall's was not one to passively accept

1365
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 16: his fate. While awaiting his execution, he tried to take

1366
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 16: his own life twice, the first time with sleeping pills

1367
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 16: and the second time by cutting his own throat. These

1368
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 16: attempts delayed the execution, but inevitably Kinsalls faced his appointment

1369
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 16: with the hangman on September two.

1370
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:03,759
Speaker 15: Twenty eighth, nineteen hundred. Local authorities used a step ladder

1371
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 15: as gallows. Kinsalls did not fall from a sufficient height

1372
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 15: to break his neck. Consequently, and the neck wound from

1373
01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 15: his suicide attempt had not completely healed, so he was

1374
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:17,599
Speaker 15: bleeding heavily as he dangled from the noose. A doctor

1375
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 15: told the sheriff and hundreds of other horrified spectators that

1376
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:22,639
Speaker 15: Kinsaul's was still alive.

1377
01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 16: Officers cut him down and hanged the unfortunate man a

1378
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 16: second time. This time he died. In an era in

1379
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 16: which the executions took place all the time, Kinsall's gory

1380
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 16: death cut through the fog and made national news. The

1381
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 16: Virginia Pilot called the scene revolting. During the history of hangings,

1382
01:23:42,200 --> 01:23:45,639
Speaker 16: hideous mistakes like this were common, sometimes because of an

1383
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 16: executioner's miscalculations, prisoner's heads were yanked off. Sometimes ropes ripped apart,

1384
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 16: with the prisoner falling to the ground, only to be

1385
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 16: hanged again. During many hangings, the condemned slowly strangled to death.

1386
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 15: John Harrerus, a man hanged in Pennsylvania in nineteen thirteen,

1387
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 15: actually screamed as he suffocated, prompting a headline in one

1388
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:12,599
Speaker 15: newspaper quote, prisoner tortured through bungling at an execution, According

1389
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:15,599
Speaker 15: to an estimate made in nineteen ninety three by illegal

1390
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:18,479
Speaker 15: team representing a client who's facing death by hanging, in

1391
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:22,719
Speaker 15: Washington State, between the years sixteen twenty two and nineteen

1392
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:26,719
Speaker 15: ninety three, authorities bungled one hundred and seventy of about

1393
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 15: eight thousand legally authorized hangings, resulting in prolonged suffering for

1394
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:34,000
Speaker 15: the prisoners in more than two percent of the death

1395
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:37,599
Speaker 15: sentences carried out by this technique. The growing middle class

1396
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 15: and upper class in the United States became squeamish about hanging.

1397
01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 15: As one writer put it, bourgeois audiences might tolerate the

1398
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:50,680
Speaker 15: ghastliness of death itself, but not in competence and mismanagement.

1399
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 15: By the early eighteen eighties, the new York Times had

1400
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:58,599
Speaker 15: begun publishing lengthy, detailed and graphic accounts of hangings gone

1401
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,960
Speaker 15: wrong TA tena five. In response to mounting public concerns,

1402
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:06,719
Speaker 15: New York Governor David Bennett Hill declared, the present mode

1403
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,960
Speaker 15: of executing criminals by hanging has come down to us

1404
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 15: from the dark ages. It may well be questioned whether

1405
01:25:13,200 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 15: the science of the present day cannot provide a means

1406
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 15: of taking the life of those condemned to die in

1407
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 15: a less barbarous manner. As the backlash against the extreme

1408
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:26,240
Speaker 15: brutality of hanging grew among elites, the New York Medico

1409
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:29,760
Speaker 15: Legal Society first suggested research into whether prisoners could be

1410
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 15: possibly executed by lethal injection in the eighteen seventies, but

1411
01:25:34,720 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 15: a different technology arose that delayed the advent of that

1412
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:42,479
Speaker 15: protocol by more than a century. Famously, Thomas Edison was

1413
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 15: a greedy man took credit for the inventions of his

1414
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:50,560
Speaker 15: underpaid lab assistance, who toiled as menlo New Jersey Laboratory.

1415
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:54,519
Speaker 15: Edison was also a genius of public relations, and he

1416
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 15: would come to dominate several industries. In the early eighteen seventies,

1417
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 15: his team had developed a feasible Incandessa light bulb that

1418
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:05,719
Speaker 15: ran on the direct current or DC system, As Edison

1419
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 15: himself described it.

1420
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 18: On October twenty first, eighty excepty what Lomis experiments resutted

1421
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 18: in the production of a small unit map up comparatively

1422
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 18: enormous resistance the filament the anomic conditions of great stability.

1423
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,799
Speaker 18: After the result, I knew the problem approached commercial solution.

1424
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,680
Speaker 15: In eighteen seventy nine, Edison submitted his patent for an

1425
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,519
Speaker 15: electric lamp. In eighteen eighty the Edison Illuminating Company opened

1426
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 15: for business and soon provided lights for New York and

1427
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 15: other cities. In the early days of the electric industry,

1428
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 15: fatal accidents sometimes happened because of the new technology. In

1429
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:52,560
Speaker 15: eighteen eighty one, George Lemuel Smith, an intoxicated Buffalo bricklayer,

1430
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 15: stumbled into an unlocked electric plant and accidentally fried himself

1431
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 15: by touching a generator.

1432
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,479
Speaker 16: An autopsy lets some doctors to conclude that Smith died

1433
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:06,880
Speaker 16: quickly and painlessly. Many in the medical profession responded to

1434
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:11,880
Speaker 16: Smith's untimely death by suggesting that perhaps electric power could

1435
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 16: provide a more reliable and less grotesque way to rid

1436
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:17,000
Speaker 16: society of convicted murderers.

1437
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,200
Speaker 13: And rapists enter a buffalo.

1438
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 15: Dentist Alfred Porter Southwick and doctor George Fell of the

1439
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 15: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals who both

1440
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,000
Speaker 15: experimented with killing stray cats and dogs with electric current.

1441
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,240
Speaker 15: The early results were often horrifying, with the animals sometimes

1442
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:37,839
Speaker 15: burning live. Nevertheless, the two published an article that described

1443
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,719
Speaker 15: electrocution as the quote safest and kindest method of killing.

1444
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:45,160
Speaker 16: In eighteen eighty six, New York State formed a commission

1445
01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 16: the study of prisoners could humanly be put to death

1446
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 16: In a similar way, the so called Jerry Commission falsely

1447
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 16: claimed that electrocuted animals tortured in a series of experiments

1448
01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 16: died supposedly, rapidly and efficiently. Thomas Edison was soon seen

1449
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:02,519
Speaker 16: a business opportunity in state killing.

1450
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 15: At the time, Edison was locked in a so called

1451
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:09,800
Speaker 15: current war with another Robber Barren business tycoon, George Westinghouse.

1452
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 15: Westinghouse's labs had developed a system that ran on alternating

1453
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:17,960
Speaker 15: current or AC, a system that was more efficient, more popular,

1454
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 15: and less prone to break down. Edison's DC system had

1455
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 15: already caused fatal electrocutions, but the so called Wizard of

1456
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,720
Speaker 15: Menlo Park wanted to prove that the much safer Westinghouse

1457
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 15: system was in fact dangerous. Edison had his engineer's electrocute

1458
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:34,640
Speaker 15: animals using the AC current in front of reporters to

1459
01:28:34,720 --> 01:28:38,599
Speaker 15: terrify the public about the system. His most sinister ploy, however,

1460
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 15: was conspiring with the state of New York to hook

1461
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:44,559
Speaker 15: up its first electric chair, invented by the aforementioned Buffalo

1462
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:49,160
Speaker 15: dentist and engineer Alfred Southwick, and Edison connected that chair

1463
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:51,360
Speaker 15: to an AC power system.

1464
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 16: The first man to face this new invention was William Kemmler,

1465
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 16: who was convicted of murdering his girlfriend with a hatchet

1466
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 16: during a drunken rage. The jury ordered him to die

1467
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:06,800
Speaker 16: by electrocution. Edison saw an opportunity for Kemler to die

1468
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 16: in agony as the first man killed in an electric chair,

1469
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:14,000
Speaker 16: in order to fatally damage Westinghouse's reputation and that of

1470
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 16: the AC current. Desperate to prevent his product from being

1471
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:22,080
Speaker 16: associated with something so ghastly, Westinghouse prohibited the sale of

1472
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:25,320
Speaker 16: his AC generators to New York State out of fear

1473
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 16: that they would be used to execute Kemler. But Edison

1474
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:31,800
Speaker 16: sent his men to find secondhand Westinghouse equipment, which ended

1475
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:35,640
Speaker 16: up in the hands of prison officials. Westinghouse then secretly

1476
01:29:35,720 --> 01:29:39,559
Speaker 16: hired an attorney for Kemler, but the appeals failed. At

1477
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 16: six point thirty eight in the morning August sixth, eighteen ninety,

1478
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 16: Kemler became an unwilling pioneer.

1479
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 15: On the day of his execution, witnesses were impressed by

1480
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:52,720
Speaker 15: Kemler's calm demeanor as he wished everyone in the death

1481
01:29:52,800 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 15: chamber good luck. After strapping Kemmler into the electric chair,

1482
01:29:56,680 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 15: the executioner pulled a switch and Kemler's body convulsed and

1483
01:30:00,200 --> 01:30:04,000
Speaker 15: became rigid. An attending physician announced he was not dead.

1484
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 15: Kemeler started to drool and a second jolt was ordered.

1485
01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 15: Kemler started burning alive, and this time white smoke rose

1486
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,560
Speaker 15: in the air, filling the room with what witnesses described

1487
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 15: as a quote pungent and sickening odor.

1488
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:22,600
Speaker 16: Afterward, Westinghouse said of Kemmler's agonizing death, they would have

1489
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 16: done better with an axe. The mayhem didn't matter. An

1490
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:31,040
Speaker 16: Edison's plot failed. New York officials considered the electrocution a

1491
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 16: success and stuck with the method for decades to come.

1492
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:37,439
Speaker 16: Twenty six other states adopted the electric chair as a

1493
01:30:37,479 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 16: method of execution. Kemler's death would be the first of

1494
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:44,760
Speaker 16: many so called botched executions over the next century. As

1495
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:49,440
Speaker 16: Austen Sarat wrote in Gruesome Spectacles, eighty of the executions

1496
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 16: gone awry in the next century involved the electric chair,

1497
01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 16: with the failures involving, as he wrote, mechanical breakdowns, others

1498
01:30:56,520 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 16: resulting in fire, smoke, the smell of burning flesh, and

1499
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 16: a prolonged period from the start to the completion.

1500
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 15: Sometimes the executed person's eyes popped out during electrocution. After death,

1501
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 15: the bodies of those electrocuted remained so hot that prison

1502
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 15: guards often got blisters if they touched the body too soon.

1503
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 15: In nineteen twenty three, a man named FG. Bullen would

1504
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:22,439
Speaker 15: be one of four executed in Arkansas on the same day.

1505
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:25,920
Speaker 15: Prison officials actually placed him in a casket, thinking he

1506
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,960
Speaker 15: was dead when a guard noticed he was still breathing.

1507
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:32,720
Speaker 15: Bullen was then carried back to the chair and electrocuted

1508
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:35,520
Speaker 15: a second time, this time successfully.

1509
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:39,240
Speaker 16: Before the start of the twentieth century, critics knew that

1510
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 16: both hanging and the electric chair were exercises in barbarity.

1511
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 16: In the Lone Star State, Fernand Eugene Daniel, the editor

1512
01:31:47,479 --> 01:31:50,320
Speaker 16: of the Texas Medical Journal, was an advocate of eugenics

1513
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:54,320
Speaker 16: an opponent of capital punishment. He argued that cashtrating men

1514
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 16: from families with criminal histories would be a way to

1515
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 16: prevent criminals from being born in the first place. Cash

1516
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 16: straining criminals as more Eumane said than a hanging or

1517
01:32:04,479 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 16: electrocuting their children when those offspring inevitably turned to a

1518
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:12,360
Speaker 16: life of crime. Daniel accepted that executions would take place

1519
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 16: for the foreseeable future, say one to make the death

1520
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 16: penalty a vehicle for medical research instead of hanging or

1521
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:23,320
Speaker 16: electrocuting prisoners. Daniel suggested in a nineteen oh six issue

1522
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,280
Speaker 16: of the Texas Medical Journal that the state should sedate

1523
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 16: them and, while unconscious, subject them to medical experiments. Quote

1524
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,400
Speaker 16: inject into him various disease germs. Watched their progress and

1525
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 16: went through with him. Inject about ten drops of prussic

1526
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:40,840
Speaker 16: acid into the veins of his arms, and he will

1527
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:45,479
Speaker 16: die a painless death, Daniel wrote. Doctor Joseph Mengel and

1528
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 16: other Nazi scientists would conduct similar experiments a little more

1529
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 16: than three decades later. But as Professor Laine explained to us,

1530
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 16: Even before doctor Daniel made his disturbing suggestion in the

1531
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 16: Texas Medical Journal, doctors knew that death by levial and

1532
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 16: injection would be a horrifying experience.

1533
01:33:03,080 --> 01:33:08,639
Speaker 1: When states turned from hanging to the electric chair. This

1534
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:12,960
Speaker 1: is back in eighteen ninety. There was actually a study.

1535
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:17,920
Speaker 1: There was actually a report that recommended the electric chair,

1536
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:23,759
Speaker 1: and that report actually considered death by drugs a lethal injection.

1537
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 1: And in that report they said, we considered and rejected this,

1538
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:34,040
Speaker 1: and they had two reasons. One was anatomical difficulties.

1539
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:38,600
Speaker 16: Professor Lane noted that even in the nineteenth century, doctors

1540
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 16: knew that the criminal population had a higher tendency towards

1541
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:45,439
Speaker 16: drug abuse and poor health that would make it difficult

1542
01:33:45,479 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 16: to access a vein with a needle in order to

1543
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 16: deliver lethal chemicals. Also, even a century ago, doctors were

1544
01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:56,759
Speaker 16: queasy about involvement and executions that violate the Hippocratic Oath,

1545
01:33:57,200 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 16: which says, in part I will do no harm or

1546
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:02,680
Speaker 16: in jau this the patients or quote and minister a

1547
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:06,639
Speaker 16: poison to anyone when asked to do so, Nor will

1548
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 16: I suggest such a course. Professor Lane noted that a

1549
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:15,040
Speaker 16: government commission studying lethal injection late nineteenth century. Prophetically said

1550
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:17,920
Speaker 16: that not only would the medical conditions of prisoners be

1551
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:21,759
Speaker 16: an issue, but so would the likely refusal of doctors

1552
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:25,360
Speaker 16: that take part because of ethical concerns. This could mean

1553
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,440
Speaker 16: that lethal injection would be carried out byameters.

1554
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 1: So you know, these people have notoriously bad things. They

1555
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:39,799
Speaker 1: are elderly, they are of poor health, they are often

1556
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 1: former drug users. You know, how did we know this

1557
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety and didn't think about this in nineteen

1558
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:51,639
Speaker 1: seventy seven. But that was one reason. The other reason

1559
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 1: was they said, we're not going to be able to

1560
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 1: do this without the medical profession. We're not going to

1561
01:34:57,240 --> 01:35:01,040
Speaker 1: be able to do it competently. And this sustained and

1562
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:06,320
Speaker 1: strong opposition of the medical profession makes this not viable.

1563
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 15: There were other less popular alternatives to hanging in the

1564
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 15: electric chair in the nineteen hundreds. In nineteen twenty four,

1565
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:16,479
Speaker 15: Nevada became the first state to execute someone in a

1566
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:20,839
Speaker 15: gas chamber. Again, the euthanasia of straight pets and animal

1567
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 15: shelters provided a model for human executions, and again there

1568
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:28,600
Speaker 15: were a lot of problems. Prisoners resisted breathing in the

1569
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:32,920
Speaker 15: poisonous gas, and this natural resistance slowed their deaths. The

1570
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 15: big spaces and gas chambers often limited the effectiveness of

1571
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,320
Speaker 15: the poison gas, and in the earliest such executions, the

1572
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:42,719
Speaker 15: chambers themselves sometimes leaked, putting witnesses in danger.

1573
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:46,680
Speaker 16: As with the electric chair death penalty. Advocates claimed that

1574
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 16: the modern technology had provided a guilt free method for

1575
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:53,320
Speaker 16: the government to kill people. The reality couldn't be farther

1576
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:58,160
Speaker 16: from the truth. Doctor Richard Traitsman from John Hopkins University

1577
01:35:58,200 --> 01:36:02,520
Speaker 16: School of Medicine wrote, quote, the person is unquestionably experiencing

1578
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 16: pain and extreme anxiety. The sensation is similar to the

1579
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:08,840
Speaker 16: pain felt by a person during a heart attack, where

1580
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,240
Speaker 16: essentially the heart is being deprived of oxygen.

1581
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:16,400
Speaker 15: Eleven states, including California, eventually adopted death by poisoned gas

1582
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:20,519
Speaker 15: as their preferred method of execution, but witnesses consistently reported

1583
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:25,200
Speaker 15: the condemn seemed to die accontizing struggling deaths in which

1584
01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:30,559
Speaker 15: they convulsed and wretched and sometimes screamed. In nineteen sixty,

1585
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 15: California executed Carol Chessman, a convicted rapist who authored numerous

1586
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 15: acclaimed books. While on death row. Before his execution, Chessman

1587
01:36:38,960 --> 01:36:41,559
Speaker 15: told reporters who would witness his death that he would

1588
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:44,639
Speaker 15: nod his head if he was experiencing physical pain while

1589
01:36:44,640 --> 01:36:48,200
Speaker 15: he was gased. Reporters said that Chessman indeed nodded his

1590
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 15: head multiple times as he choked in the poison fumes.

1591
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:55,000
Speaker 16: By the time at Chessman's death, the United States was

1592
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 16: less than a decade from the longest pause and executions

1593
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:03,599
Speaker 16: in its history. Numerous judicial challenges the capital punishment, based

1594
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:08,599
Speaker 16: on numerous racial biases, police misconduct, and other issues, resulted

1595
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:12,080
Speaker 16: in a de facto moratorium on executions by the mid

1596
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 16: nineteen sixties. That issue was the obvious racism of the

1597
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:20,000
Speaker 16: death penalty, including who was charged with capital crimes and

1598
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:24,440
Speaker 16: who ended up the target of state killing. As Brian Stevenson,

1599
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 16: a New York University law professor and the founder and

1600
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:31,120
Speaker 16: executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, explained in two

1601
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:32,520
Speaker 16: thousand and seven.

1602
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:35,679
Speaker 19: In the United States, we are struggling with capital punishment

1603
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:36,720
Speaker 19: and its implementation.

1604
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 7: A short quick legal history.

1605
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 19: In nineteen seventy two, the United States Supreme Court struck

1606
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:44,680
Speaker 19: down the death penalty after recognizing that it was being

1607
01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 19: applied in an arbitrary manner. The Court in seventy two

1608
01:37:48,600 --> 01:37:51,479
Speaker 19: noted that eighty seven percent of the people executed for

1609
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:54,320
Speaker 19: the crime of rape were black men convicted of raping

1610
01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:57,680
Speaker 19: white women. One hundred percent of the people executed in

1611
01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 19: the United States between nineteen thirty and nineteen seventy two

1612
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:03,920
Speaker 19: for the crime of rape were executed for offenses involving

1613
01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 19: victims who were white, even though it was believed that

1614
01:38:06,920 --> 01:38:09,120
Speaker 19: women of color were three times as likely to be

1615
01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:10,920
Speaker 19: the victims of sexual assault.

1616
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 16: That racism would play a major factor in the largest

1617
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:17,879
Speaker 16: pause and executions in the history of the American death penalty.

1618
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 16: The NAACP's Legal Defense Fund in the ACLU filed challenges

1619
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:27,080
Speaker 16: to the death penalty based on racial bias across the country,

1620
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:31,800
Speaker 16: and these legal teams won numerous stays of execution. As

1621
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,719
Speaker 16: Harvard law professor Kel Steiker observed in a YouTube video,

1622
01:38:36,120 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 16: a de facto ban of executions had taken place by

1623
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:40,360
Speaker 16: the late nineteen sixties.

1624
01:38:40,479 --> 01:38:43,759
Speaker 20: The death penalty was in decline already in the nineteen

1625
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:46,599
Speaker 20: sixties in the United States, as it was in Europe,

1626
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:51,920
Speaker 20: but the ldf's litigation campaign brought it to a complete halt.

1627
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:55,840
Speaker 20: So from nineteen sixty seven to nineteen seventy two in

1628
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:58,760
Speaker 20: the five years prior to the decision in firm And

1629
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 20: versus Georgia, there were no executions in the United States.

1630
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 15: Three death penalty cases, Furman versus Georgia, Jackson Versus. Georgia,

1631
01:39:09,640 --> 01:39:12,920
Speaker 15: and Branch versus Texas, reached the United States Supreme Court

1632
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,759
Speaker 15: and were consolidated in nineteen seventy two. All three defendants

1633
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 15: were African American, and Jackson and Branch were charged with

1634
01:39:19,840 --> 01:39:23,599
Speaker 15: raping white women. As previously noted, no white man had

1635
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:26,280
Speaker 15: ever been executed for the rape of an African American

1636
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:30,080
Speaker 15: woman or child in American history. In June nineteen seventy two,

1637
01:39:30,160 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 15: the US Supreme Court issued a five to four decision

1638
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:35,800
Speaker 15: in Furman v. Georgia, ruling that defendants received the death

1639
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 15: penalty in such a fashion that capital punishment as then

1640
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:41,480
Speaker 15: practiced was unconstitutional.

1641
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 20: So that there didn't seem to be any rhyme or

1642
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:46,519
Speaker 20: reason to it. To use the words that they used,

1643
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:54,040
Speaker 20: it was wantonly and freakishly imposed. The immediate aftermath of

1644
01:39:54,120 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 20: Furman was dramatic. Everyone who had been sentenced to death,

1645
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,080
Speaker 20: and there were some six hundred dred Ish people on

1646
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,000
Speaker 20: death row at the time of the Firman litigation. All

1647
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 20: had their death penalties invalidated, so they were all sent

1648
01:40:07,360 --> 01:40:09,719
Speaker 20: to the general population. They had to be re sentenced

1649
01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 20: to a sentence other than death. Moreover, when the Supreme

1650
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,200
Speaker 20: Court struck down the death penalty as it then existed,

1651
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:21,439
Speaker 20: anyone whose death sentence was pending that case had to

1652
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:24,440
Speaker 20: be dropped. Because those statutes were no longer.

1653
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 16: Valid, No executions took place for another four years. The

1654
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:33,640
Speaker 16: Supreme Court had ruled executions were unconstitutional when the instructions

1655
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:37,240
Speaker 16: juries were given in capital cases were too vague. This

1656
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 16: gave states like Texas a chance to rewrite their death

1657
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:44,360
Speaker 16: penalty laws. By nineteen seventy six, thirty five states had

1658
01:40:44,360 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 16: adopted new statues addressing the issues raised in furmin On

1659
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:53,000
Speaker 16: July second, nineteen seventy six, in its greg versus Georgia decision,

1660
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:56,679
Speaker 16: the Supreme Court, by a seven to two margin, upheld

1661
01:40:56,680 --> 01:40:59,360
Speaker 16: the death penalty. In states like Texas, where the Court

1662
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 16: found its rein instructions were clear and specific, the death

1663
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:06,719
Speaker 16: penalty were set to resume after a decade long pause.

1664
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,960
Speaker 16: It took a mere one hundred and ninety nine days

1665
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:14,280
Speaker 16: for state killing to resume. Utah executed a murderer, Gary

1666
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:19,479
Speaker 16: Gilmore by firing squad on January seventeenth, nineteen seventy seven.

1667
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,639
Speaker 15: The extreme violence of Gilmore's execution, which inspired in nineteen

1668
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:27,760
Speaker 15: seventy nine Pultzer Prize winning journalism based novel called The

1669
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:31,479
Speaker 15: Executioner's Song, sparked a renewed debate over the brutality of

1670
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:36,240
Speaker 15: capital punishment and whether it's compatible with modern society. Nevertheless,

1671
01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:39,520
Speaker 15: the state of Oklahoma charged ahead, but they faced a problem.

1672
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 15: As Professor Lane writes, the Oklahoma electric Chair was falling

1673
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:47,519
Speaker 15: apart and needed to be repaired. But by the nineteen seventies,

1674
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 15: many legislators were put off by the brutality of that

1675
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:53,200
Speaker 15: execution method and sought something more modern.

1676
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:58,479
Speaker 16: Meanwhile, a Dallas television reporter, Tony Garrett, filed suit to

1677
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:02,799
Speaker 16: allow television cameras to film executions, and a federal district

1678
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:07,960
Speaker 16: court granted a preliminary injunction in the reporter's favor. That

1679
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:12,120
Speaker 16: injunction was later overturned, but politicians across the country were

1680
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,080
Speaker 16: unnerved as a prospect of the public watching a man

1681
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:18,240
Speaker 16: essentially burn alive in their names and what that could

1682
01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 16: do to support for the death penalty.

1683
01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:22,000
Speaker 15: It was at this time that a member of the

1684
01:42:22,040 --> 01:42:25,559
Speaker 15: Oklahoma legislature approached the medical community and asked them for

1685
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:29,080
Speaker 15: help and designing a new protocol for death by lethal injection.

1686
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:32,960
Speaker 15: Politicians thought prisoners could be put to sleep permanently like

1687
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:38,160
Speaker 15: veterinarians euthanizing animals, but doctors wanted nothing to do with

1688
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:42,120
Speaker 15: killing people. That's when Oklahoma State corner doctor J. Chapman

1689
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 15: stepped in. Referring to the physicians who refused to help,

1690
01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 15: he said, quote, to hell with them, Let's do this.

1691
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 15: Professor Lane explained what happened next.

1692
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 21: I document in the book legislators talking about, how, you know,

1693
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 21: I don't know that the country's going to want to

1694
01:43:00,800 --> 01:43:02,120
Speaker 21: see this sort of violence.

1695
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:04,320
Speaker 1: All we've got is the electric chair, all we've got

1696
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:07,080
Speaker 1: is the gas chamber. People are going to be, you know,

1697
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 1: queasy about this, and we need to find a different way.

1698
01:43:11,920 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 1: And unknown to many, or at least I appreciate it,

1699
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 1: is the fact that a federal court had recognized at

1700
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:25,439
Speaker 1: the time a First Amendment right to televise executions. Now

1701
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:29,000
Speaker 1: it wouldn't last, but nobody could have known that. And

1702
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,040
Speaker 1: so one of the things I also found was state

1703
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:35,360
Speaker 1: legislators talking about, gosh, we can't you know, we can't

1704
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:39,599
Speaker 1: have an electrocution in someone's living room, right. The public

1705
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:42,439
Speaker 1: is not going to go for this, and so they

1706
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:44,920
Speaker 1: were looking for a different way. They talked about, you

1707
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 1: know what about a death by drugs? And they are

1708
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:52,679
Speaker 1: asking the state Medical Association, they're asking their personal doctors,

1709
01:43:52,720 --> 01:43:56,280
Speaker 1: they're asking everybody they can find. No one wants to play,

1710
01:43:57,200 --> 01:44:00,559
Speaker 1: but they get to and this is in Oklahoma. They

1711
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:05,200
Speaker 1: get to the state Medical Examiner, doctor J. Chapman, and

1712
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:10,120
Speaker 1: he refers to himself as an expert in tet bodies,

1713
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:11,880
Speaker 1: but not in how to get them that way.

1714
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:15,960
Speaker 16: In spite of his self confessed ignorance, Chapman made up

1715
01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:19,479
Speaker 16: at of thin air, a three drug protocol that would

1716
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 16: be used in executions across the country for the next

1717
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,880
Speaker 16: three decades. Initially, he proposed a two drug protocol, but

1718
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:29,000
Speaker 16: decided that if two drugs were deadly, three would be

1719
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 16: even more lethal. Chapman's cocktail included in order sodium theopental,

1720
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 16: which was designed to kill like a barbituate overduse pan,

1721
01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 16: coronium bromide, which paralyzes the diaphragm in order to stop breathing,

1722
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 16: and potassium chloride, which was intended to cause a cardiac arrest.

1723
01:44:49,120 --> 01:44:52,639
Speaker 16: Chapman admitted he did no research into these drugs or

1724
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:55,280
Speaker 16: into how they interacted with each other, and neither did

1725
01:44:55,280 --> 01:44:58,720
Speaker 16: the State of Oklahoma when they adopted this procedure. Despite this,

1726
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:01,479
Speaker 16: Chapman's method of execution would come to be used by

1727
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 16: every single state that had the death penalty. Laine described

1728
01:45:04,960 --> 01:45:07,760
Speaker 16: her shock when she came across interviews with Chapman, who

1729
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:11,680
Speaker 16: seemed completely glib about what prisoners might experience under this

1730
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:12,840
Speaker 16: execution method.

1731
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:18,040
Speaker 1: And I later came across an interview of him where

1732
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 1: they asked, you know, how did you come up with

1733
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:24,679
Speaker 1: a three drug protocol that every state used, every single

1734
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:29,320
Speaker 1: state for thirty five forty years, And he said, I

1735
01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:32,680
Speaker 1: didn't do any research. I just thought about what might

1736
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 1: be useful, what you might need. You wanted two drugs

1737
01:45:36,479 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 1: so that if one didn't kill him, the other did.

1738
01:45:39,280 --> 01:45:42,080
Speaker 1: And then the interviewer said, well, why did you add

1739
01:45:42,120 --> 01:45:45,320
Speaker 1: a third drug? And he said, why not? I didn't

1740
01:45:45,320 --> 01:45:47,479
Speaker 1: do any research. Why does it matter why.

1741
01:45:47,320 --> 01:45:47,920
Speaker 12: I chose it?

1742
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 1: So he makes it up and the state of Oklahoma

1743
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:59,160
Speaker 1: adopts it basically in an afternoon. No expert testimony, no

1744
01:45:59,280 --> 01:46:04,120
Speaker 1: committee here rings, no review of the medical science, veterinary

1745
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:09,720
Speaker 1: literature nothing, and it takes hold and all of the

1746
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:13,680
Speaker 1: other states blindly follow it.

1747
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:16,280
Speaker 16: It's possible Chapman may not have cared, but if he

1748
01:46:16,320 --> 01:46:18,200
Speaker 16: had done any research, you would have found that the

1749
01:46:18,240 --> 01:46:22,040
Speaker 16: components of his three drug protocol worked at cross purposes.

1750
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:26,879
Speaker 16: Anesthesiologists believe that the amountain speed at which the sodium

1751
01:46:26,920 --> 01:46:31,439
Speaker 16: theopentol is administered does not produce an anesthetic effect deep

1752
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,240
Speaker 16: enough for the executed prisoner to be unaware of what's

1753
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:38,719
Speaker 16: happening to them. Meanwhile, the sodian theopentol also slows down

1754
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 16: blood circulation so dramatically that it depresses the effectiveness of

1755
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:47,519
Speaker 16: the potassium chloride, causing those receiving the drug to suffer

1756
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:50,599
Speaker 16: a racing heart but not have a fatal heart attack.

1757
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:54,600
Speaker 16: The combined effect, in many cases is a slow suffocation

1758
01:46:55,120 --> 01:46:58,960
Speaker 16: that involves pulmonary edema, the technical term for fluid in

1759
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 16: the lungs in essence with lethal injection. States slowly drowned.

1760
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:07,840
Speaker 16: The paralyzed who struggle but are unable to cry for help.

1761
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:11,600
Speaker 16: When lethal injections have not gone according to plan, the

1762
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:15,800
Speaker 16: execution sometimes last hours. The agonizing deaths hidden from the

1763
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:16,639
Speaker 16: general public.

1764
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:20,280
Speaker 15: Some states have recently abandoned the three drug protocol, but

1765
01:47:20,360 --> 01:47:23,120
Speaker 15: not for humanitarian reasons. They've done so because of the

1766
01:47:23,120 --> 01:47:26,000
Speaker 15: difficulty of obtaining all of the drugs from pharmaceutical firms

1767
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:30,599
Speaker 15: that have resisted participating in capital punishment. As of this year,

1768
01:47:31,120 --> 01:47:34,040
Speaker 15: twenty four states provide for some form of lethal injection,

1769
01:47:34,640 --> 01:47:38,000
Speaker 15: and as previously mentioned, Texas launched the lethal injection era

1770
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:41,120
Speaker 15: in nineteen eighty two with the execution of Charlie Brooks.

1771
01:47:41,880 --> 01:47:45,719
Speaker 15: In the next episode, we'll discuss that execution. We'll discuss

1772
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:49,000
Speaker 15: why lethal injections peaked in the nineties, how states got

1773
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 15: around resistance from drug companies that manufactured the chemicals used

1774
01:47:52,280 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 15: in the injections, how the medical profession has worked together

1775
01:47:55,520 --> 01:47:59,400
Speaker 15: to thwart this particularly American machinery of death, and how

1776
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:02,000
Speaker 15: this is all all been a mixed blessing for the

1777
01:48:02,040 --> 01:48:06,840
Speaker 15: approximately two thousand, one hundred prisoners on death Row. I'm

1778
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:09,360
Speaker 15: Stephen Monchelli for it could happen here.

1779
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,400
Speaker 16: And until next time, I'm Michael Phillips. Thanks for listening.

1780
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:28,439
Speaker 15: A warning this episode includes violent content which some listeners

1781
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 15: might find disturbing.

1782
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:35,320
Speaker 16: I'm Michael Phillips, an historian and the author of a

1783
01:48:35,400 --> 01:48:38,840
Speaker 16: history of racism in Dallas called White Metropolis, and the

1784
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:42,479
Speaker 16: co author with longtime journalist Betsy Freeoff, of the history

1785
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,479
Speaker 16: of the eugenics in Texas called The Purifying Knife.

1786
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:49,200
Speaker 15: And I'm Stephen Monchelli. I'm an investigative reporter who specializes

1787
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:52,320
Speaker 15: in political extremism and far right internet culture, and I

1788
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:55,200
Speaker 15: contribute to outlets like The Texas Observer, The barb Byer

1789
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 15: and more.

1790
01:48:57,080 --> 01:49:00,559
Speaker 16: In the last episode, we began exploring the shady history

1791
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:03,400
Speaker 16: behind the most popular form of capital punishment in the

1792
01:49:03,520 --> 01:49:08,000
Speaker 16: United States, lethal injection. We described how one after another

1793
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,519
Speaker 16: execution by hanging, then the electric chair, and then the

1794
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:16,120
Speaker 16: gash chamber was tatted's cleanest, quickest, most modern, painless way

1795
01:49:16,160 --> 01:49:19,639
Speaker 16: to put a person to death. Each method, however, proved

1796
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:23,800
Speaker 16: more violent and gruesome than previously expected. In order to

1797
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:27,000
Speaker 16: prevent a ground swell of opposition to the death penalty,

1798
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 16: politicians responded by abolishing public executions in the nineteen seventies

1799
01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:36,000
Speaker 16: latched on to lethal injection as the newest, gentlest, and

1800
01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:37,880
Speaker 16: kindest method of state killing.

1801
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 15: I discussed in the first episode. The lethal injection protocol

1802
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:45,320
Speaker 15: was designed by an Oklahoma corner doctor Stephen Crawford, who

1803
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:47,400
Speaker 15: once admitted to an interview with that although he was

1804
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:49,600
Speaker 15: an expert in dead bodies, he didn't know how to

1805
01:49:49,600 --> 01:49:53,760
Speaker 15: get him that way. Authorities turned to Crawford because doctors

1806
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:57,720
Speaker 15: who dealt with living bodies wanted nothing to do with executions,

1807
01:49:58,200 --> 01:50:00,880
Speaker 15: So Crawford designed a three drug protocol off for executions

1808
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:02,519
Speaker 15: that he made up pretty much out of thin air,

1809
01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 15: reasoning that if one deadly drug was good for killing,

1810
01:50:05,200 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 15: then three drugs would be even better. The problem was

1811
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:10,960
Speaker 15: that the three drugs counteract each other and would result

1812
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:14,960
Speaker 15: in longer executions and in deaths that resembled slow drowning.

1813
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:18,720
Speaker 16: Crawford did no homework, and neither did the more than

1814
01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:22,599
Speaker 16: thirty states that eventually adopted lethal injection as the preferred

1815
01:50:22,640 --> 01:50:26,320
Speaker 16: method of execution. This occurred after the Supreme Court brought

1816
01:50:26,320 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 16: the death penalty back to life with its nineteen seventy

1817
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:33,559
Speaker 16: six greg versus Georgia decision. Following a ten year pause,

1818
01:50:34,479 --> 01:50:37,120
Speaker 16: it would not be until December seventh, nineteen eighty two,

1819
01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:40,360
Speaker 16: the state of Texas carried out the first execution by

1820
01:50:40,479 --> 01:50:43,400
Speaker 16: lethal injection in the world. In this episode, we'll talk

1821
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:46,800
Speaker 16: to a journalist, Dick Revis, who witnessed brokes execution.

1822
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 22: One thing I noticed was that there were half a

1823
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 22: dozen or more loanmen in there who had on cowboy hats.

1824
01:50:56,720 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 22: They did not remove that Charlie was killed, and I

1825
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:04,840
Speaker 22: also thought that wasn't quite right. But in any case,

1826
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:10,400
Speaker 22: I don't recall any anybody saying anything. We were silent

1827
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:13,400
Speaker 22: while all of this was going on.

1828
01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:14,680
Speaker 23: And.

1829
01:51:16,280 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 14: Charlie only spoke to say, allow what water? And he

1830
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 14: was dying when that happened. It was obvious that he

1831
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:26,679
Speaker 14: was scared to death.

1832
01:51:27,920 --> 01:51:31,920
Speaker 15: Revis told us that Brooks, as he recalled it, seemingly

1833
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:35,599
Speaker 15: drifted off to sleep. But that's not all that may

1834
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:39,160
Speaker 15: have been occurring. According to Professor Karina Lane, the author

1835
01:51:39,240 --> 01:51:41,759
Speaker 15: of the recently published book Secrets of the Killing State,

1836
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:45,240
Speaker 15: who you heard from in the first episode, something very

1837
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:46,519
Speaker 15: different was likely going.

1838
01:51:46,439 --> 01:51:48,160
Speaker 13: On in Brooks's mind and body.

1839
01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:54,000
Speaker 15: According to Lane, Brooks was slowly suffocating. Medical experts, Lane said,

1840
01:51:54,040 --> 01:51:56,479
Speaker 15: believe that those executed with legal injections are often not

1841
01:51:56,560 --> 01:52:00,000
Speaker 15: fully unconscious, and that the paralytic drugs fed into their

1842
01:52:00,120 --> 01:52:03,559
Speaker 15: veins prevent them from fully communicating their suffering, even as

1843
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:04,479
Speaker 15: they may be aware of it.

1844
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:10,000
Speaker 1: The courts that have heard this medical testimony. There was

1845
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 1: a court in Ohio and said, yeah, you know, all

1846
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:17,880
Speaker 1: of the medical experts are describing acute pulmonary edema as

1847
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 1: a drowning from within. It is you can't catch your breath,

1848
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:24,719
Speaker 1: You've got fluid coming into your lungs, and you can't

1849
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 1: do anything about it. And the court said, you know,

1850
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:32,400
Speaker 1: this is the sensation akin to waterboarding. You know, we're

1851
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:35,400
Speaker 1: waterboarding people to death. That's what we're actually doing.

1852
01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:39,360
Speaker 16: In this episode, we'll also talk about how the modern

1853
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:42,960
Speaker 16: death penalty peaked in the nineteen nineties and why pressure

1854
01:52:42,960 --> 01:52:46,600
Speaker 16: from drug manufacturers and activists led not only to a

1855
01:52:46,640 --> 01:52:50,240
Speaker 16: decline in executions, but the revival in some states of

1856
01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 16: some very old forms of execution, such as the electra

1857
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:55,600
Speaker 16: chair and the firing squad.

1858
01:52:56,200 --> 01:52:59,240
Speaker 15: It's a fascinating but often frightening story, and one that

1859
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 15: will have to continue after perhaps less scripping messages from

1860
01:53:02,479 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 15: our sponsors.

1861
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:16,640
Speaker 16: Big changes came to the death penalty in Texas in

1862
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:20,760
Speaker 16: nineteen twenty three. Before then, hangings were carried out by

1863
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 16: sheriffs and the counties where the murderers, rapes, and other

1864
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:27,439
Speaker 16: crimes committed by the prisoner took place. Many of the

1865
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:31,160
Speaker 16: sheriffs were inexperience, and hanging and goring mishaps took place.

1866
01:53:31,720 --> 01:53:35,519
Speaker 16: Texas last public execution unfolded in August thirty first, nineteen

1867
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:39,240
Speaker 16: twenty three, when African American Nathan Lee was hanged before

1868
01:53:39,240 --> 01:53:43,599
Speaker 16: one hundred and fifty spectators in Brazoria County. From nineteen

1869
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 16: hundred to nineteen twenty, close to seventy percent of the

1870
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,080
Speaker 16: inmates executed in Texas were African American.

1871
01:53:50,960 --> 01:53:53,880
Speaker 15: In nineteen twenty three, Texas sought to modernize and bring

1872
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:58,200
Speaker 15: industrial efficiency to state killing. All executions henceforth would be

1873
01:53:58,240 --> 01:54:01,479
Speaker 15: carried out at the state prison in Huntsville, and prisoners

1874
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:04,880
Speaker 15: would die in an electric chair. Locals gave it a

1875
01:54:04,880 --> 01:54:08,680
Speaker 15: glib name, Old Sparky. The state's new killing machine, got

1876
01:54:08,680 --> 01:54:11,800
Speaker 15: a workout the day it debuted February eighth, nineteen twenty five.

1877
01:54:12,439 --> 01:54:16,880
Speaker 15: Texas executed five prisoners that day, all black men. Between

1878
01:54:16,880 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 15: that date and July thirtieth, nineteen sixty four, when the

1879
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:23,960
Speaker 15: state electrocuted Joseph Johnson, a man convicted of fatally shooting

1880
01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:27,439
Speaker 15: store owner during a robbery, Texas sent three hundred and

1881
01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:31,639
Speaker 15: sixty one inmates to the electric chair. African Americans made

1882
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:34,200
Speaker 15: up sixty three percent of the prisoners who died in

1883
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 15: that chair, while seventy percent of those who died in

1884
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:41,120
Speaker 15: the electric chair were Mexican American. Texas politicians insisted that

1885
01:54:41,160 --> 01:54:44,760
Speaker 15: their tough on crime policies served as a deterrent, but

1886
01:54:44,880 --> 01:54:47,840
Speaker 15: in fact, from nineteen thirty three to nineteen sixty four,

1887
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:51,919
Speaker 15: the year Joseph Johnson was executed, the murdery in Texas

1888
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:55,680
Speaker 15: was twelve point seven per one hundred thousand people, the

1889
01:54:55,760 --> 01:54:59,280
Speaker 15: eighth highest in the United States. Nevertheless, Texas leaders have

1890
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:02,400
Speaker 15: continued to justify the death penalty in spite of its

1891
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:06,080
Speaker 15: seemingly negligible impact on the state's violent culture, and the

1892
01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 15: violence of capital punishment was about performative toughness, not about

1893
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:13,600
Speaker 15: stopping future murders. As a reporter who witnessed a hanging

1894
01:55:13,720 --> 01:55:16,640
Speaker 15: laments in the film In Cold Blood and.

1895
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 1: Then next one, next year, same thing will happen again,

1896
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 1: maybe this would help to stop it.

1897
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 11: Never had.

1898
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:32,920
Speaker 16: After Johnson, Texas didn't execute another inmate for eighteen years.

1899
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:37,600
Speaker 16: Following the Greg versus Georgia decision, Texas faced a potential

1900
01:55:37,960 --> 01:55:43,360
Speaker 16: public relations disaster. As we mentioned last episode, Dallas television

1901
01:55:43,400 --> 01:55:47,080
Speaker 16: reporter Tony Garrett filed suit to allow television cameras to

1902
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:51,520
Speaker 16: film executions, and a federal district court ranted a preliminary

1903
01:55:51,520 --> 01:55:56,200
Speaker 16: injunction in the reporter's favor. That injunction was later overturned.

1904
01:55:56,200 --> 01:55:59,360
Speaker 16: But under the Texas Capital Dome, there were was worry

1905
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:01,600
Speaker 16: about well, so it happened to support for the death

1906
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:06,960
Speaker 16: penalty if an electrocution was broadcast live. The legislator who

1907
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:10,280
Speaker 16: wrote Texas new death penalty law to greg decision said

1908
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:13,560
Speaker 16: he was quote repulsed by the idea of an electrocution

1909
01:56:13,720 --> 01:56:17,760
Speaker 16: taking place in someone's living room. Lethal injection, as Professor

1910
01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:21,160
Speaker 16: Lane had put it, had visual appeal because it would

1911
01:56:21,200 --> 01:56:24,960
Speaker 16: resemble healthful medical procedures and because quote states have been

1912
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:28,960
Speaker 16: euthanizing pets with pentode barbital since the nineteen thirties.

1913
01:56:29,800 --> 01:56:32,440
Speaker 15: Animals are typically put to sleep with a two drug protocol,

1914
01:56:32,840 --> 01:56:35,600
Speaker 15: first a sedative and then the drug that does the deed.

1915
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:38,240
Speaker 15: But the three drug protocol that would be adopted by

1916
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 15: most states that allowed capital punishment produced to nightmarish results

1917
01:56:41,440 --> 01:56:44,920
Speaker 15: that were typically invisible to witnesses. States typically allowed family

1918
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:47,400
Speaker 15: members of the crime victim to attend executions, and the

1919
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:50,360
Speaker 15: condemned also got to choose witnesses. In the early days

1920
01:56:50,360 --> 01:56:54,680
Speaker 15: of Texas' reborn death penalty, the state's populist Democratic Attorney General,

1921
01:56:54,720 --> 01:56:57,480
Speaker 15: Jim Mannix, liked to make a show of attending each execution,

1922
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:00,000
Speaker 15: and though much of the death penalty process has been

1923
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 15: shrouded in secrecy, such as who is providing the lethal chemicals,

1924
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:07,320
Speaker 15: states also allowed reporters to attend executions so that they

1925
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:09,240
Speaker 15: could serve as the eyes and ears of the public.

1926
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,600
Speaker 16: In his younger days, Dick Revis was the civil rights

1927
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:16,360
Speaker 16: activist who served time in Alabama jail for his efforts

1928
01:57:16,400 --> 01:57:20,840
Speaker 16: to secure vetting rights for African Americans. Revis became a journalist,

1929
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 16: and by the early nineteen eighties he was a frequent

1930
01:57:23,120 --> 01:57:28,080
Speaker 16: contributor to Texas Monthly, one of the state's premier investigative publications.

1931
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 16: In nineteen eighty two, he got the chance to witness

1932
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:33,760
Speaker 16: an event that had never happened in the United States

1933
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:37,200
Speaker 16: or perhaps even the world. The Texas Department of Corrections

1934
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:40,920
Speaker 16: would soon pioneer the use of lethal injection, although the

1935
01:57:40,960 --> 01:57:43,560
Speaker 16: first person to be put to death in this manner

1936
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 16: was still unclear.

1937
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 22: I recall the meeting with an editor, and they said

1938
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 22: somehow they told me that there's a lady at the capitol,

1939
01:57:53,040 --> 01:57:56,240
Speaker 22: or a lady and the government in Austin, which is

1940
01:57:56,280 --> 01:57:58,760
Speaker 22: where I was a living the land who was in

1941
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 22: charge of scheduling their execute shits. So I called her

1942
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:07,800
Speaker 22: up and she said, well, she didn't have any album scheduled,

1943
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,840
Speaker 22: but she could give me the names of it was

1944
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:16,720
Speaker 22: either four or five people who would be first, and

1945
01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:21,400
Speaker 22: one of them who was candy Man, the fellow who

1946
01:58:22,360 --> 01:58:26,880
Speaker 22: poisoned his own child putting poisoned in a in some

1947
01:58:27,080 --> 01:58:28,320
Speaker 22: candy at Halloween.

1948
01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 15: Revis is referring to Ronald Clark O'Brien, a Houston area

1949
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:37,000
Speaker 15: optician who fell into debt. He was one hundred thousand

1950
01:58:37,040 --> 01:58:40,000
Speaker 15: dollars deep, so he bought a life insurance policy on

1951
01:58:40,080 --> 01:58:42,720
Speaker 15: his eight year old son and daughter before he prepared

1952
01:58:42,720 --> 01:58:46,960
Speaker 15: five pixie sticks poisoned with potassium cyanide, and on Halloween

1953
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:49,760
Speaker 15: night in nineteen seventy four, he went trick or treating

1954
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:52,480
Speaker 15: with his children, a neighbor and that man's two children.

1955
01:58:53,040 --> 01:58:54,880
Speaker 15: The group went to an abandoned house and knocked on

1956
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 15: the door, and when no one answered, O'Brien convinced the

1957
01:58:57,320 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 15: rest of the group to move on. He caught up

1958
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 15: with them later and claimed that someone had in fact

1959
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:04,640
Speaker 15: answered the door, and then he handed out four of

1960
01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:08,440
Speaker 15: the poisoned candies to the children. When the O'Brien's returned home,

1961
01:59:09,120 --> 01:59:12,440
Speaker 15: the killer handed the fifth pixie stick to a neighborhood child.

1962
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 15: Later that night, O'Brien told his children that they could

1963
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 15: enjoy one candy from the evening, and he urged them

1964
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:21,120
Speaker 15: to choose the pixie sticks. And when his child, Timothy

1965
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:24,600
Speaker 15: complained the candy tasted bitter, O'Brien gave him kool aid

1966
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:28,520
Speaker 15: to wash down the poison. Timothy started vomiting and died

1967
01:59:28,640 --> 01:59:29,640
Speaker 15: on the way to the hospital.

1968
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:32,600
Speaker 16: None of the other children tried the poison candy.

1969
01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 12: That night.

1970
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:37,160
Speaker 16: O'Brien claimed that a malevolent stranger had poisoned the candy,

1971
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 16: and he sang at his son's funeral. His story fell apart, however,

1972
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:45,480
Speaker 16: when the police discovered the life insurance policies, when O'Brien

1973
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 16: was unable to identify the house where he had been

1974
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:50,720
Speaker 16: supposedly handed the pixie sticks, and when the cops found

1975
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:54,240
Speaker 16: out that O'Brien had purchased cyanide from a chemical store

1976
01:59:54,240 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 16: in Houston. A jury sends him to death on June third,

1977
01:59:57,680 --> 02:00:02,080
Speaker 16: nineteen seventy five. The murder created a last day national legacy,

1978
02:00:02,600 --> 02:00:05,640
Speaker 16: sparking paranoia about the safety of trick or treating.

1979
02:00:06,360 --> 02:00:09,320
Speaker 15: State of Texas knew that executing O'Brien would be politically

1980
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:12,040
Speaker 15: popular and would probably boost support for the death penalty.

1981
02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 15: Not knowing which resident of Texas's death row would be

1982
02:00:15,040 --> 02:00:18,000
Speaker 15: strapped to the gurney first, REVUS ended up interviewing all

1983
02:00:18,040 --> 02:00:19,720
Speaker 15: but one inmate on the list he had been given.

1984
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:23,760
Speaker 15: The appeals process, however, is unpredictable, and a fort Worth

1985
02:00:23,800 --> 02:00:26,240
Speaker 15: man known for most of his life as Charlie Brooks,

1986
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:28,600
Speaker 15: would end up winning the dubious honor of being the

1987
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:31,240
Speaker 15: first to be put to death by lethal injection. He

1988
02:00:31,320 --> 02:00:33,120
Speaker 15: was convicted for the fatal shooting of a twenty six

1989
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:37,120
Speaker 15: year old mechanic, David Gregory, during a nineteen seventy six robbery.

1990
02:00:37,760 --> 02:00:40,800
Speaker 16: By the time REVS interviewed him, Brooks had converted to

1991
02:00:40,960 --> 02:00:45,560
Speaker 16: Islam and taken the name Sharif Achmad abdul Rahem.

1992
02:00:46,120 --> 02:00:46,960
Speaker 9: That is the name we.

1993
02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 16: Will use referring to him for the rest of the episode.

1994
02:00:50,080 --> 02:00:53,520
Speaker 16: Abdul Raheem had committed the robbery with another man, Wouldy

1995
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,840
Speaker 16: lords He posed to someone wanting to buy a used

1996
02:00:56,920 --> 02:01:00,320
Speaker 16: car and asked to take a test strive. Gregory agreed

1997
02:01:00,360 --> 02:01:03,640
Speaker 16: to ride with him. Abdul Rahem picked up Lordes. The

1998
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,680
Speaker 16: pair through Gregory in a car trunk, drove him to

1999
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 16: a ramshackle motel, tied him to a chair, and taped

2000
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:13,800
Speaker 16: his mouth shut. Abdul Raheem and Lordis accused each other

2001
02:01:13,840 --> 02:01:17,360
Speaker 16: of firing the fatal shot. No weapon was ever found.

2002
02:01:17,520 --> 02:01:21,320
Speaker 16: Lordis eventually received the death penalty, but after that was overturned,

2003
02:01:21,880 --> 02:01:25,040
Speaker 16: he reached an agreement with prosecutors and received a forty

2004
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:29,120
Speaker 16: year sentence. He would end up serving only eleven. The

2005
02:01:29,200 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 16: disparity in sentencing is one of the defining features of

2006
02:01:32,240 --> 02:01:35,760
Speaker 16: how capital punishment is carried out, even after greg versus

2007
02:01:35,760 --> 02:01:40,400
Speaker 16: Georgia had supposedly addressed that issue. Shortly before his execution,

2008
02:01:40,840 --> 02:01:44,800
Speaker 16: Abdul Raheem insisted on his innocence, but according to Revis,

2009
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:48,120
Speaker 16: the condemned man was lying. Revs described to us his

2010
02:01:48,160 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 16: relationship with Abdul Raheem aka Charlie Brooks.

2011
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:57,760
Speaker 14: Charlie was very alert a test on his fate engaged.

2012
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:02,960
Speaker 22: It was not moping around sad. He had a sense

2013
02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 22: of humor. He told me in the first interview I

2014
02:02:06,720 --> 02:02:12,200
Speaker 22: had with him that he was innocent and that this

2015
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:17,560
Speaker 22: was racial discrimination, that they executed more blacks than whites.

2016
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:21,360
Speaker 22: And I told him, oh, what you want is for

2017
02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:25,960
Speaker 22: them to excuse more white people, huh. And that stunned

2018
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:28,680
Speaker 22: me because I think no one had ever said that

2019
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 22: to him. But that would do away with racial discrimination.

2020
02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:37,840
Speaker 22: And there's lots of white people need executed too. It

2021
02:02:37,880 --> 02:02:41,600
Speaker 22: was my way of thinking. And he didn't get mad

2022
02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:44,800
Speaker 22: at me or anything. He kind of laughed at it himself.

2023
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:49,720
Speaker 22: After he paused to understand the question. Then he kind

2024
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:53,520
Speaker 22: of laughed at it himself. But I would say he

2025
02:02:53,720 --> 02:02:59,320
Speaker 22: was even until until they're getting strapped down. He was

2026
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 22: in control all of his own body. His mind was

2027
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:10,800
Speaker 22: in great shape. He lied to me about about whether

2028
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:11,960
Speaker 22: or not he was innocent.

2029
02:03:13,200 --> 02:03:15,240
Speaker 15: Brooks told Revis that although the gun went off, you

2030
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:16,200
Speaker 15: didn't pull the trigger.

2031
02:03:16,840 --> 02:03:17,680
Speaker 13: It was an accident.

2032
02:03:18,800 --> 02:03:21,760
Speaker 22: At some point I got him to say that all

2033
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:26,720
Speaker 22: the gun went off, and I went and pulled the

2034
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 22: transcript of his criminal trial. The gun was a revolver,

2035
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:37,600
Speaker 22: not an automatic. Revolvers don't go off to just that terry.

2036
02:03:37,680 --> 02:03:40,640
Speaker 22: I even took what I had and banged it on

2037
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 22: the table while it was loaded and all and nothing happened.

2038
02:03:45,280 --> 02:03:50,879
Speaker 22: Revolvers don't go off until they'd been cocked.

2039
02:03:51,480 --> 02:03:54,000
Speaker 14: Unless they've been cocked, they can't go off.

2040
02:03:55,440 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 15: We'll return to the story of the world's first execution

2041
02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:00,280
Speaker 15: by lethal injection and conceptive way it was used to

2042
02:04:00,320 --> 02:04:24,120
Speaker 15: win public support for capital punishment. After this lovely odbreak.

2043
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:17,680
Speaker 16: There was a little bit of last Spina drama. As

2044
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:21,400
Speaker 16: zero hour for the execution of Charlie Brooks aka abdul

2045
02:04:21,560 --> 02:04:25,320
Speaker 16: Rahim approached. The Serme Court rejected his appeal for the

2046
02:04:25,400 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 16: last time. Shortly before the execution was scheduled began. Jack Strickland,

2047
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:34,200
Speaker 16: the prosecutor in Abdul Raheem's murder trial, had second thoughts

2048
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:37,480
Speaker 16: about the differences between the condemned man sentence and that

2049
02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:42,680
Speaker 16: of his accomplice. Strickland testified on abdul Rahim's behalf, but

2050
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:46,400
Speaker 16: to no avail. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals said

2051
02:04:46,440 --> 02:04:49,800
Speaker 16: the defense team had presented no new information that would

2052
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:54,080
Speaker 16: justify a stay of execution. Just after midnight, State Attorney

2053
02:04:54,120 --> 02:04:57,720
Speaker 16: General Mark White called officials in Huntsville and told them

2054
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:00,200
Speaker 16: that the historic execution could begin.

2055
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:04,240
Speaker 15: From nineteen eighty two, the year of Abdulheim's execution, until

2056
02:05:04,280 --> 02:05:08,200
Speaker 15: twenty eleven. Texas allowed prisoners facing executions a choice of

2057
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:13,280
Speaker 15: a last meal of their choosing. Abdurhem's request, however, was rejected.

2058
02:05:14,080 --> 02:05:18,360
Speaker 22: He told me that for his last meal he wanted

2059
02:05:18,920 --> 02:05:23,920
Speaker 22: a five shrimp and bushes, and he said he had

2060
02:05:24,000 --> 02:05:28,560
Speaker 22: told the authorities that that's what he wanted for his

2061
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:32,920
Speaker 22: last meal. When I got down there, I was told

2062
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:39,360
Speaker 22: that there was no shellfish in the prison system's kitchens

2063
02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:42,360
Speaker 22: and Charlie had to pick. He finally picked steak in

2064
02:05:42,880 --> 02:05:48,840
Speaker 22: beach cobbler. But I felt bad about that because the

2065
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:52,880
Speaker 22: prison people knew that they could go to the grocery

2066
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:57,400
Speaker 22: store and buy whatever Charlie wanted, and they didn't do it,

2067
02:05:58,320 --> 02:06:01,000
Speaker 22: and it was sort of I thought it was an

2068
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:05,240
Speaker 22: indignant they inflicted on it. So when I went down

2069
02:06:05,280 --> 02:06:09,120
Speaker 22: for the execution, I went down in the afternoon execution

2070
02:06:09,480 --> 02:06:18,080
Speaker 22: was that knot I went out night fish just I

2071
02:06:18,120 --> 02:06:19,440
Speaker 22: need to say, I don't know.

2072
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:21,960
Speaker 14: Because of the situaship.

2073
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:26,040
Speaker 15: Texas would end this final meal for prisoners on death

2074
02:06:26,120 --> 02:06:30,360
Speaker 15: row in twenty eleven. That's because of Lawrence Russell Brewer,

2075
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:33,160
Speaker 15: who was one of three white supremacists who chained an

2076
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:35,920
Speaker 15: African American man, James Bird, to the back of a

2077
02:06:35,960 --> 02:06:39,000
Speaker 15: car in Jasper, Texas, and dragged him to death on

2078
02:06:39,080 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 15: June seventh, nineteen ninety eight. As a last act of

2079
02:06:42,360 --> 02:06:46,440
Speaker 15: bitter defiance. On the date of Brewer's execution September twenty first,

2080
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:50,600
Speaker 15: twenty eleven, Brewer ordered a last meal that included two

2081
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:54,560
Speaker 15: chicken fried steaks, a triple meat bacon, cheeseburger, fried okra,

2082
02:06:54,880 --> 02:06:58,760
Speaker 15: a pound of barbecue, three fijidas, a meat lover's pizza,

2083
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:01,160
Speaker 15: a pine of ice cream, and a slab of peanut

2084
02:07:01,160 --> 02:07:04,280
Speaker 15: butter fudge with crust peanuts. When he received all the food,

2085
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:05,760
Speaker 15: he refused to.

2086
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:07,360
Speaker 10: Touch a bite.

2087
02:07:07,560 --> 02:07:10,600
Speaker 15: State Senator John Whitmyer complained bitterly at the waist and

2088
02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:14,880
Speaker 15: expense lavished on such an infamous killer, and prison officials

2089
02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:18,800
Speaker 15: immediately changed the policy. Today, those facing execution are now

2090
02:07:18,880 --> 02:07:22,160
Speaker 15: only fed the same meal other prisoners receive that day.

2091
02:07:23,520 --> 02:07:26,240
Speaker 16: Revis believes that the process of being strapped down to

2092
02:07:26,280 --> 02:07:30,080
Speaker 16: a hospital like gurney is humiliating to those being executed.

2093
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:33,400
Speaker 14: Men die with more dignity.

2094
02:07:33,480 --> 02:07:37,600
Speaker 22: When they're on their feet, for example, as walking to

2095
02:07:37,760 --> 02:07:40,480
Speaker 22: a scaffold.

2096
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:44,839
Speaker 14: Would they still feel in control of their lives.

2097
02:07:45,880 --> 02:07:49,880
Speaker 22: The hardest thing about lethal injections is that they strap

2098
02:07:50,000 --> 02:07:54,680
Speaker 22: you down where you can't move, and you're sitting there.

2099
02:07:54,720 --> 02:08:00,560
Speaker 22: Absolutely helped, helpless till the drug strike effect.

2100
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:04,520
Speaker 16: Revers described the atmosphere in the death chamber as Abdul

2101
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:09,600
Speaker 16: Raheem was executed as tense and quiet. A prison girlfriend,

2102
02:08:09,600 --> 02:08:13,280
Speaker 16: as Revers describes her, Vanessa Sap, was present, as were

2103
02:08:13,360 --> 02:08:14,720
Speaker 16: numerous officials.

2104
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:18,200
Speaker 14: First of all, the room it's too small.

2105
02:08:19,240 --> 02:08:23,160
Speaker 22: My recollection is there was a circular self of chairs

2106
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:29,440
Speaker 22: threading out ten feet twenty feet in a curve. It

2107
02:08:29,480 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 22: may not it may have been a corner, but it

2108
02:08:33,240 --> 02:08:37,000
Speaker 22: was barely room to hold the law man who wanted

2109
02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:45,080
Speaker 22: to witness the execution, and Vanesa Sap and three reporters.

2110
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:48,240
Speaker 22: His wife was not present. She didn't want to be

2111
02:08:48,360 --> 02:08:51,280
Speaker 22: and she didn't want it's to see it. As for

2112
02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:56,800
Speaker 22: the audience reaction, I don't recall that there was anything dramatic.

2113
02:08:58,480 --> 02:09:00,160
Speaker 22: Now I seem more routine.

2114
02:09:02,200 --> 02:09:05,640
Speaker 15: Inspired by the story of Carol Chessman, the author and

2115
02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:09,200
Speaker 15: rapist executed in the gas chamber in nineteen sixty who

2116
02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:11,200
Speaker 15: worked out a signal he could send to reporters if

2117
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:15,040
Speaker 15: he was suffering during execution. Revis and Abdul Raheem worked

2118
02:09:15,040 --> 02:09:18,560
Speaker 15: out a similar arrangement. If Abdul Raheem was suffering as

2119
02:09:18,600 --> 02:09:22,000
Speaker 15: he was dying, he would shake his head. Revis would

2120
02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:23,839
Speaker 15: later regret making that arrangement.

2121
02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:30,280
Speaker 22: I interviewed them before the execution, and when we came

2122
02:09:30,400 --> 02:09:35,680
Speaker 22: up with an idea. Unfortunately, it was mine that if

2123
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:40,920
Speaker 22: he felt pain while he was dyned, that he should

2124
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:47,040
Speaker 22: shake his head. So I decide, and I say, it's

2125
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:52,840
Speaker 22: unfortunate because and as things were, we were unable to

2126
02:09:53,600 --> 02:09:56,600
Speaker 22: I was unable to determine as if he was given

2127
02:09:56,680 --> 02:09:57,600
Speaker 22: me that signal.

2128
02:09:58,760 --> 02:10:02,400
Speaker 16: Jurevis did. Appeared that Abdul Raheem had simply drifted off

2129
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:02,880
Speaker 16: to sleep.

2130
02:10:03,760 --> 02:10:06,040
Speaker 14: He seemed to die peacefully.

2131
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:10,440
Speaker 22: I had to put down a dog only a couple

2132
02:10:10,520 --> 02:10:14,200
Speaker 22: of years ago, or have the dog put down, and

2133
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:18,800
Speaker 22: I was with him while that happened, and I couldn't.

2134
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:23,320
Speaker 22: How do you say after seeing those two things, I said,

2135
02:10:23,360 --> 02:10:23,920
Speaker 22: I wish I.

2136
02:10:23,920 --> 02:10:25,160
Speaker 14: Could die that way.

2137
02:10:26,600 --> 02:10:31,919
Speaker 22: And yeah, there was no evidence with my dog, for example,

2138
02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:34,760
Speaker 22: that there was any pain. It was like, I put

2139
02:10:34,800 --> 02:10:38,200
Speaker 22: him to sleep, and I think that's what they did

2140
02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:42,000
Speaker 22: with Charlie, but it would take a doctor to know.

2141
02:10:43,440 --> 02:10:43,920
Speaker 2: Of course.

2142
02:10:44,040 --> 02:10:47,760
Speaker 16: Abdul Raheem's death was the first of its kind. As

2143
02:10:47,800 --> 02:10:50,480
Speaker 16: we mentioned last time, the three drug protocol that was

2144
02:10:50,600 --> 02:10:53,360
Speaker 16: used by most states over the last three decades was

2145
02:10:53,400 --> 02:10:56,600
Speaker 16: concocted out of thin air by someone no expertise on

2146
02:10:56,640 --> 02:10:59,400
Speaker 16: the effect of these drugs together on the human body.

2147
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 16: Abdul Raheem's execution was a medical experiment conducted with no

2148
02:11:04,520 --> 02:11:08,879
Speaker 16: prior research. Professor Lane said that since abdul Rahem's execution,

2149
02:11:09,360 --> 02:11:12,680
Speaker 16: doctors have had a chance to perform autopsies on those

2150
02:11:12,800 --> 02:11:16,400
Speaker 16: executed by lethal injection, and witnesses have heard the cries

2151
02:11:16,440 --> 02:11:19,040
Speaker 16: of those who were able to speak while dying on

2152
02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:19,600
Speaker 16: the gurney.

2153
02:11:20,320 --> 02:11:23,360
Speaker 1: You know, the state expert to saying, oh, this first drug,

2154
02:11:23,400 --> 02:11:26,800
Speaker 1: you're going to be ninety nine point ninety nine nine

2155
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:29,920
Speaker 1: percent of the public would be you know, out and

2156
02:11:30,000 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 1: dead within a minute. You don't even have to worry

2157
02:11:32,240 --> 02:11:36,040
Speaker 1: about those other super tortuous drugs. And it's like, yeah,

2158
02:11:36,080 --> 02:11:39,760
Speaker 1: that's not what was happening. They said they would stop

2159
02:11:39,800 --> 02:11:44,879
Speaker 1: breathing within a minute. And there was some pretty prominent litigation,

2160
02:11:45,080 --> 02:11:49,440
Speaker 1: the Barrells case out in California, where they looked at

2161
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:54,360
Speaker 1: the executions by lethal injection and said over half of

2162
02:11:54,400 --> 02:11:58,720
Speaker 1: them they actually did not stop breathing within a minute.

2163
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:02,520
Speaker 1: In fact, it was eight and ninetes and it did

2164
02:12:02,560 --> 02:12:06,840
Speaker 1: not kill them within two minutes of injecting. That third drug,

2165
02:12:06,920 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 1: which is called potassium chloride, but it's referred to as

2166
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:14,800
Speaker 1: liquid fire, and it chemically burns the thing as it

2167
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:17,640
Speaker 1: races to the heart where it induces a cardiac arrest.

2168
02:12:18,040 --> 02:12:20,040
Speaker 1: So they're like, you know, the experts like, oh, you

2169
02:12:20,080 --> 02:12:22,080
Speaker 1: know that it's going to bring death in two minutes.

2170
02:12:22,480 --> 02:12:27,720
Speaker 1: That didn't happen, Like none of this was happening as

2171
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:32,640
Speaker 1: the state and the state's experts were so confidently just saying.

2172
02:12:33,520 --> 02:12:36,920
Speaker 1: And it turns out, you know, no one had ever

2173
02:12:36,960 --> 02:12:41,920
Speaker 1: studied these drugs in these amounts, nobody had ever injected

2174
02:12:42,360 --> 02:12:45,400
Speaker 1: these drugs in these amounts into people. This is not

2175
02:12:46,080 --> 02:12:48,560
Speaker 1: what was used. I mean that's interesting too, Like this

2176
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:51,480
Speaker 1: is not the drug that was used to use the

2177
02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:54,360
Speaker 1: nze pets. This is not the drug that was used

2178
02:12:54,920 --> 02:12:57,640
Speaker 1: for physitionists as a suicide. So it's like three totally

2179
02:12:57,640 --> 02:13:01,480
Speaker 1: different drugs, and you know, and not only has nobody

2180
02:13:01,560 --> 02:13:05,560
Speaker 1: studied or nobody knew how they would work, but nobody

2181
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 1: could have predicted how they would have worked together.

2182
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:14,760
Speaker 15: As discussed in our last episode, the lethal injection that

2183
02:13:14,840 --> 02:13:18,880
Speaker 15: killed Abdul Raheem included three drugs sodium theopental, the heavy

2184
02:13:18,880 --> 02:13:23,560
Speaker 15: sedative pan coronium bromide meant to suffocate the prisoner, and

2185
02:13:23,600 --> 02:13:27,839
Speaker 15: potassium chloride meant to trigger a cardiac arrest. As Professor

2186
02:13:27,920 --> 02:13:29,960
Speaker 15: Laine wrote in her book Secrets of the Killing State,

2187
02:13:30,640 --> 02:13:32,879
Speaker 15: because of one of the drugs used in three drug protocol,

2188
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:37,560
Speaker 15: the drugs work poorly when combined. Quote, the pancoreum bromide

2189
02:13:37,600 --> 02:13:41,240
Speaker 15: couples the inability to breathe with the inability to struggle.

2190
02:13:41,720 --> 02:13:44,720
Speaker 15: They cannot fight or scream or even rive in pain,

2191
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:49,880
Speaker 15: but all would seem calm on the surface. Texas's experiment

2192
02:13:49,960 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 15: in lethal injection was a political success for a while.

2193
02:13:53,360 --> 02:13:57,040
Speaker 15: The novelty of the revived death penalty brought back memories

2194
02:13:57,080 --> 02:14:01,400
Speaker 15: to some public hangings. Students from nearby sam Houston State

2195
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:04,720
Speaker 15: University would show up and hold drunken parties outside the

2196
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:08,680
Speaker 15: prison in Huntsville on the night of executions. Cheering loudly

2197
02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:11,040
Speaker 15: enough that they could be heard inside the death chamber.

2198
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:15,280
Speaker 15: The night that Ronald Clark O'Brien, the infamous candy man

2199
02:14:15,840 --> 02:14:18,840
Speaker 15: who killed his son for insurance money, died, a crowd

2200
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:22,600
Speaker 15: of about three hundred celebrated outside, some yelling trick or

2201
02:14:22,640 --> 02:14:25,880
Speaker 15: treat at the scheduled time of the execution and pelting

2202
02:14:25,960 --> 02:14:30,640
Speaker 15: anti death penalty protesters with candy. A huge cheer erupted

2203
02:14:30,680 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 15: when the officials of the Walls Unit left, signaling that

2204
02:14:34,240 --> 02:14:37,640
Speaker 15: O'Brien had died a local bar through a Halloween party.

2205
02:14:38,440 --> 02:14:41,400
Speaker 15: Texas politicians made support for the death penalty central to

2206
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:44,680
Speaker 15: their campaigns in this era. In the nineteen ninety Democratic

2207
02:14:44,680 --> 02:14:48,360
Speaker 15: Party gubernatorial primary, former Texas Governor Mark White faced off

2208
02:14:48,400 --> 02:14:51,640
Speaker 15: against the state Attorney General, Jim Maddox and the eventual winner,

2209
02:14:51,720 --> 02:14:55,520
Speaker 15: State Treasurer Ann Richards. White and Maddox ran almost identical

2210
02:14:55,560 --> 02:14:59,280
Speaker 15: campaign ads, both walking past larger than lifemk shots of

2211
02:14:59,400 --> 02:15:02,800
Speaker 15: murderers who were executed under their watch and claiming credit

2212
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:09,720
Speaker 15: for meeting out justice. Consider this ad for White.

2213
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:12,280
Speaker 24: These hardened criminals will never again murder, ripe or deal drugs.

2214
02:15:12,800 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 24: As Governor I made sure they received the ultimate punishment death,

2215
02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:20,080
Speaker 24: and Texas is a cipher place for it. But tough

2216
02:15:20,120 --> 02:15:23,080
Speaker 24: talk isn't enough. The criminals know how to tangle up

2217
02:15:23,120 --> 02:15:26,440
Speaker 24: the courts and delay executions. To bring them to justice

2218
02:15:26,480 --> 02:15:30,880
Speaker 24: takes strength and dedication, because if the governor flinches, they win.

2219
02:15:31,960 --> 02:15:35,720
Speaker 24: Only a governor can make executions happen. I did, and

2220
02:15:35,800 --> 02:15:38,400
Speaker 24: I will.

2221
02:15:38,440 --> 02:15:41,520
Speaker 15: The popularity of the death penalty was sealed for decades.

2222
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:44,879
Speaker 15: Starting with Abdul Raheem, Texas has led the United States

2223
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:48,840
Speaker 15: in state killing. As of September twenty seventh, Texas had

2224
02:15:48,880 --> 02:15:52,120
Speaker 15: carried out five hundred and ninety six executions, more than

2225
02:15:52,160 --> 02:15:54,320
Speaker 15: thirty six percent of all of the executions that have

2226
02:15:54,400 --> 02:15:57,720
Speaker 15: unfolded since the United States Supreme Court allowed the death

2227
02:15:57,760 --> 02:16:01,040
Speaker 15: penalty to resume in this country in nineteen seventy six.

2228
02:16:01,640 --> 02:16:04,200
Speaker 15: More than forty percent of those executed in Texas since

2229
02:16:04,280 --> 02:16:08,320
Speaker 15: nineteen eighty two have been African American. Almost thirty percent

2230
02:16:08,320 --> 02:16:12,160
Speaker 15: had been Mexican American. In twenty twenty four, Texas executed

2231
02:16:12,200 --> 02:16:16,520
Speaker 15: six people, only one was white. Meanwhile, Texas put to

2232
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:19,600
Speaker 15: death sixty three prisoners who committed their crimes before they

2233
02:16:19,640 --> 02:16:22,640
Speaker 15: reached the age of twenty one. According to the Texas

2234
02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:26,080
Speaker 15: Coalition Against the Death Penalty. Since nineteen seventy three, eighteen

2235
02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:29,200
Speaker 15: people sent to Texas death Row were later exonerated, out

2236
02:16:29,200 --> 02:16:32,280
Speaker 15: of about two hundred nationally, and the group argues that

2237
02:16:32,320 --> 02:16:34,959
Speaker 15: there is strong evidence that at least six put to

2238
02:16:34,959 --> 02:16:37,120
Speaker 15: death in Huntsville were actually innocent.

2239
02:16:37,800 --> 02:16:41,040
Speaker 16: Professor Lane argues that not only does death by lethal

2240
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:45,519
Speaker 16: injection violate the Eighth Amendments ban on cruel and unusual punishment,

2241
02:16:46,080 --> 02:16:49,680
Speaker 16: but that most defendants facing the death penalty cannot afford

2242
02:16:49,720 --> 02:16:53,199
Speaker 16: adequate legal counsel, and that an alarming number those sent

2243
02:16:53,240 --> 02:16:56,560
Speaker 16: to death row and in some cases executed, have been innocent.

2244
02:16:57,160 --> 02:17:01,360
Speaker 1: Two hundred people have been exonerated, it from death row,

2245
02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:05,119
Speaker 1: two hundred And when you put that next to the

2246
02:17:05,320 --> 02:17:08,920
Speaker 1: sixteen hundred executions that we've had in the modern era,

2247
02:17:09,320 --> 02:17:13,240
Speaker 1: what we really have is for every eight executions, there's

2248
02:17:13,320 --> 02:17:18,120
Speaker 1: one exoneration. That is a terrible, terrible number. Right, For

2249
02:17:18,200 --> 02:17:21,720
Speaker 1: every eight times we kill someone, we all most killed

2250
02:17:21,720 --> 02:17:25,039
Speaker 1: the wrong person. And then there was this National Academy

2251
02:17:25,040 --> 02:17:28,080
Speaker 1: of Sciences report that came out, this is the Gross Report,

2252
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:33,879
Speaker 1: Seminal Gross, and they said, here's a conservative estimate, four

2253
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:38,280
Speaker 1: point one percent of all people on death row today

2254
02:17:39,280 --> 02:17:42,920
Speaker 1: are factually innocent four point one percent. That's one in

2255
02:17:43,000 --> 02:17:43,680
Speaker 1: twenty five.

2256
02:17:44,560 --> 02:17:48,840
Speaker 16: According to the Texas Coalition Against the Death Penalty. As

2257
02:17:48,879 --> 02:17:52,560
Speaker 16: of twenty fourteen, the total legal cost of executing a

2258
02:17:52,600 --> 02:17:55,920
Speaker 16: prisoner was nearly four million dollars, as opposed to the

2259
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:58,959
Speaker 16: one point three million spent to keep someone in prison

2260
02:17:59,000 --> 02:18:03,879
Speaker 16: for life. Lane argues that morality aside capital punishment is

2261
02:18:03,959 --> 02:18:09,119
Speaker 16: catastrophically expensive. Imposing sentences of life without parle, or what

2262
02:18:09,160 --> 02:18:13,240
Speaker 16: criminal justice experts call l WOP, would not only eliminate

2263
02:18:13,320 --> 02:18:16,360
Speaker 16: the risk of making an irreversible mistake by putting an

2264
02:18:16,360 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 16: innocent person to death, but also save taxpayers money.

2265
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:24,800
Speaker 1: As an example, if here's Florida, fifty one million dollars

2266
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:29,160
Speaker 1: fifty one million, that is what Florida spends every year

2267
02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:34,240
Speaker 1: to maintain the death penalty, over and above what it

2268
02:18:34,240 --> 02:18:37,920
Speaker 1: would cost to punish all first degree murderers with l WOP.

2269
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:41,680
Speaker 1: And if you look at the costs that Florida spent

2270
02:18:41,920 --> 02:18:44,880
Speaker 1: and then look at the executions that they had, how

2271
02:18:44,959 --> 02:18:48,560
Speaker 1: much did it cost per execution? You know, to maintain

2272
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,519
Speaker 1: this system, and then of course the product of it executions,

2273
02:18:51,560 --> 02:18:54,880
Speaker 1: what you're getting out of it per execution, twenty four million,

2274
02:18:56,120 --> 02:19:01,200
Speaker 1: twenty four million dollars per execution, you know. And I'm

2275
02:19:01,240 --> 02:19:04,879
Speaker 1: a former prosecutor, and I just have to say, what

2276
02:19:04,920 --> 02:19:08,760
Speaker 1: could you do with twenty four million dollars? You know,

2277
02:19:09,280 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 1: I'd take eight million and I'd put it into victim services.

2278
02:19:14,440 --> 02:19:16,680
Speaker 1: Now we're getting into the death penalty more broadly. But

2279
02:19:16,800 --> 02:19:18,880
Speaker 1: one of the things I've found as I'm on this

2280
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:23,960
Speaker 1: book tour and on the road, I'm talking to survivors

2281
02:19:24,760 --> 02:19:28,920
Speaker 1: their family members have been slain. And one, a woman

2282
02:19:28,959 --> 02:19:32,400
Speaker 1: in Tennessee, is particularly She's coming to mind right now,

2283
02:19:32,440 --> 02:19:36,520
Speaker 1: and she said, listen, when my son was murdered, I

2284
02:19:36,520 --> 02:19:39,000
Speaker 1: couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I was

2285
02:19:39,040 --> 02:19:40,800
Speaker 1: afraid I was going to lose my job. I was

2286
02:19:40,840 --> 02:19:44,080
Speaker 1: afraid I was going to lose my house. I needed therapy.

2287
02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:47,760
Speaker 1: I needed services. I needed child care to help I

2288
02:19:47,760 --> 02:19:50,640
Speaker 1: couldn't do that. My kids needed therapy. We had all

2289
02:19:50,720 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 1: of these needs. And the State of Tennessee said, you know,

2290
02:19:55,800 --> 02:19:59,680
Speaker 1: Department of Mental Health said we don't have that money. Sorry,

2291
02:20:00,600 --> 02:20:03,119
Speaker 1: you know, and so she said, we're spending it all

2292
02:20:04,200 --> 02:20:07,160
Speaker 1: and Zago. What she said is it's selfish. You're spending

2293
02:20:07,200 --> 02:20:13,080
Speaker 1: millions upon millions upon millions on death sentences, and you know,

2294
02:20:13,280 --> 02:20:17,120
Speaker 1: on the death penalty when it could actually go to

2295
02:20:17,200 --> 02:20:18,120
Speaker 1: the people who need it.

2296
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:22,720
Speaker 15: Regardless of the financial costs. Death by lethal injection has

2297
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:28,000
Speaker 15: become so commonplace that executions really catch public attention. Nationally,

2298
02:20:28,080 --> 02:20:30,400
Speaker 15: one than three hundred and seventy seven people have been

2299
02:20:30,400 --> 02:20:32,800
Speaker 15: put to death by some form of lethal injection since

2300
02:20:32,920 --> 02:20:36,520
Speaker 15: nineteen eighty two. Those executed suffered not only because of

2301
02:20:36,560 --> 02:20:40,200
Speaker 15: the chemicals used, but because, as was predicted in eighteen ninety,

2302
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:44,280
Speaker 15: medical professionals have refused to participate because of ethical rules

2303
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:48,400
Speaker 15: prohibiting the harm of patients. Doctors and nurses and paramedics

2304
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:52,440
Speaker 15: generally refuse to administer the lethal cocktails used in death chambers.

2305
02:20:52,840 --> 02:20:56,600
Speaker 15: That task generally falls to seriously undertrained prison personnel who

2306
02:20:56,680 --> 02:20:59,280
Speaker 15: are asked to secure an IV line for condemned prisoners who,

2307
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:02,120
Speaker 15: often because of eight age, history of drug abuse, or

2308
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:05,520
Speaker 15: other health problems, have veins that are difficult to access.

2309
02:21:06,120 --> 02:21:09,360
Speaker 15: Heavily muscled prisoners, those who are morbidly obese, and those

2310
02:21:09,400 --> 02:21:12,080
Speaker 15: with dark skin can also present challenges for the amateur

2311
02:21:12,120 --> 02:21:14,600
Speaker 15: phlebotomists trying to set up an execution.

2312
02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:18,920
Speaker 16: Prisons sometimes lacked the right equipment, such as the correct

2313
02:21:19,000 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 16: sized syringes or proper tubing. Lethal injection drugs are pre

2314
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:26,600
Speaker 16: made and have to be mixed by personnel not properly

2315
02:21:26,640 --> 02:21:30,480
Speaker 16: trained in chemistry, which results in errors in dosing. Often,

2316
02:21:30,520 --> 02:21:33,800
Speaker 16: people with any kind of medical competence who participate in

2317
02:21:33,840 --> 02:21:37,840
Speaker 16: executions are the ones with the shadiest ethical records. Professor

2318
02:21:37,920 --> 02:21:39,959
Speaker 16: Lane came across one case in which the State of

2319
02:21:39,959 --> 02:21:43,520
Speaker 16: Missouri relied on a doctor who ignored ethical guidelines and

2320
02:21:43,600 --> 02:21:48,040
Speaker 16: participated in the capital punishment process. He was incorrectly mixing

2321
02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:51,199
Speaker 16: the chemicals so that the prisoners were only receiving half

2322
02:21:51,240 --> 02:21:53,920
Speaker 16: the dose of the anesthesia meant to reduce the pain,

2323
02:21:54,000 --> 02:21:57,840
Speaker 16: and condemned as required by law. Doctor Lane shared the

2324
02:21:57,879 --> 02:22:02,680
Speaker 16: horrifying discoveries lawyers condemned prisoners made about that particular doctor.

2325
02:22:03,360 --> 02:22:06,959
Speaker 1: They looked, you know, at the protocol that was litigated

2326
02:22:07,160 --> 02:22:12,920
Speaker 1: and authorized by a federal court, and it was five

2327
02:22:13,000 --> 02:22:16,160
Speaker 1: grams of this particular drug. And they looked at the

2328
02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:19,920
Speaker 1: execution logs of the last several and states we're using

2329
02:22:19,920 --> 02:22:23,760
Speaker 1: two point five, and so you know, they filed suit.

2330
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:28,039
Speaker 1: That's half the anesthetic, you know, and the state, you know,

2331
02:22:28,720 --> 02:22:33,440
Speaker 1: wrote back and said, we are not using half the anesthetic.

2332
02:22:33,680 --> 02:22:37,480
Speaker 1: It must be the pharmacy logs that are wrong. We're

2333
02:22:37,520 --> 02:22:40,240
Speaker 1: going to track that down and figure out why they

2334
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,480
Speaker 1: are wrong. But we rest assure you we are not

2335
02:22:42,640 --> 02:22:47,600
Speaker 1: violating the protocol. We're doing the amount that was legally authorized. Well,

2336
02:22:47,600 --> 02:22:50,040
Speaker 1: they have to come back the next day and say, oh,

2337
02:22:50,640 --> 02:22:55,440
Speaker 1: actually the logs were right. We were wrong. We were

2338
02:22:55,760 --> 02:22:59,440
Speaker 1: injecting half of the amount. And so the court gives

2339
02:22:59,480 --> 02:23:04,400
Speaker 1: the lawyers for the condemned prisoners a limited deposition to

2340
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:07,840
Speaker 1: question this doctor behind a veil, like they didn't know

2341
02:23:07,840 --> 02:23:11,520
Speaker 1: who he was, but to question them under oath, and

2342
02:23:12,879 --> 02:23:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're like, why are you using half? And

2343
02:23:14,800 --> 02:23:18,519
Speaker 1: he said, well, I'm dyslexic, and so sometimes that make mistakes.

2344
02:23:19,400 --> 02:23:23,440
Speaker 1: And yet Missouri stuck with them and said, no, we

2345
02:23:23,760 --> 02:23:28,480
Speaker 1: have every confidence in him. They lose that the trial court,

2346
02:23:28,560 --> 02:23:31,680
Speaker 1: the federal court says, this guy can't be anywhere near

2347
02:23:33,280 --> 02:23:37,119
Speaker 1: Look the whole thing, to the extent it's humane, requires

2348
02:23:37,160 --> 02:23:42,760
Speaker 1: you to meticulously measure and mix chemicals in liquids, and

2349
02:23:42,800 --> 02:23:46,560
Speaker 1: so you can't have someone who just makes mistakes. And

2350
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:49,400
Speaker 1: then in the meantime, investigative journalists, which you know I

2351
02:23:49,840 --> 02:23:52,359
Speaker 1: have to take my hat off. I tip my hat

2352
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:56,039
Speaker 1: to investigative journalists. But they were like, gee, who is this,

2353
02:23:56,160 --> 02:23:59,000
Speaker 1: you know, dyslexic doctor, and they find out his identity.

2354
02:23:59,280 --> 02:24:02,199
Speaker 1: You know, he admits it's him. He had over twenty

2355
02:24:02,240 --> 02:24:07,280
Speaker 1: malpractice suits, he had had his hospital privileges revoked at

2356
02:24:07,280 --> 02:24:10,400
Speaker 1: two hospitals. He had been censured by the medical board.

2357
02:24:10,959 --> 02:24:15,280
Speaker 1: So you know, you're asking someone to do something, to

2358
02:24:15,400 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 1: participate in something that is fundamentally against your reason for

2359
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:25,160
Speaker 1: being as a doctor. And you know, from time to

2360
02:24:25,240 --> 02:24:29,600
Speaker 1: time they find people, but I think they're outliers. What

2361
02:24:29,680 --> 02:24:33,080
Speaker 1: I have found is they are outliers not only on ethics,

2362
02:24:33,080 --> 02:24:34,200
Speaker 1: but in other ways too.

2363
02:24:35,640 --> 02:24:39,440
Speaker 15: Experts on capital punishment like Lane aren't comfortable with describing

2364
02:24:39,480 --> 02:24:43,120
Speaker 15: executions that go off script as quote botched, even if

2365
02:24:43,160 --> 02:24:47,320
Speaker 15: it's a commonly used term. No matter how the execution proceeds,

2366
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:51,560
Speaker 15: the end result is the same, the inmate is dead. However,

2367
02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:54,039
Speaker 15: there is no question that killing people by lethal injection

2368
02:24:54,560 --> 02:24:57,000
Speaker 15: is so complicated and requires so much skill on the

2369
02:24:57,040 --> 02:24:59,560
Speaker 15: part of the executioners that the process is typically far

2370
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:03,199
Speaker 15: more agon than death penalty advocates tell the public. According

2371
02:25:03,200 --> 02:25:07,000
Speaker 15: to the Anti Capital Punishment Organization the Death Penalty Information Center.

2372
02:25:07,240 --> 02:25:11,240
Speaker 15: Out of nineteen executions in twenty twenty two, seven were botched,

2373
02:25:11,600 --> 02:25:14,080
Speaker 15: meaning that the death took far longer than expected that

2374
02:25:14,200 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 15: prison personnel had to jab the condemned people multiple times

2375
02:25:17,640 --> 02:25:20,640
Speaker 15: to get an IV line working or worse.

2376
02:25:21,400 --> 02:25:24,920
Speaker 16: When Oklahoma executed Clayton Lockett on April twenty nine to

2377
02:25:24,959 --> 02:25:29,520
Speaker 16: twenty fourteen, the state used an untested combination of three drugs.

2378
02:25:30,240 --> 02:25:32,959
Speaker 16: The size of the syringes and the amount of drugs

2379
02:25:33,040 --> 02:25:36,960
Speaker 16: used were wrong. Prison personnel made repeated mistakes as they

2380
02:25:37,040 --> 02:25:40,080
Speaker 16: tried to insert the needle for the IV. Even though

2381
02:25:40,080 --> 02:25:44,760
Speaker 16: the American Medical Association prohibits its members from participating in executions.

2382
02:25:45,200 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 16: A doctor was on hand for the lock of fiasco.

2383
02:25:48,480 --> 02:25:51,680
Speaker 16: The physician tried but failed to insert an IV into

2384
02:25:51,720 --> 02:25:55,520
Speaker 16: the jugular vein in Lockett's neck. The doctor then performed

2385
02:25:55,520 --> 02:25:58,840
Speaker 16: a surgical procedure called a cutdown, which is a deep

2386
02:25:58,920 --> 02:26:02,000
Speaker 16: surgical incision to the skin, muscle, and fat performed to

2387
02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:07,000
Speaker 16: expose a central vein under Lockett's clavicle. Procedure was bloody

2388
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:10,360
Speaker 16: and also failed, and the execution then tried and failed

2389
02:26:10,360 --> 02:26:14,160
Speaker 16: to access a vein through Lockett's feet. Eventually, they tried

2390
02:26:14,160 --> 02:26:16,959
Speaker 16: to insert an IV through the femoral vein in the

2391
02:26:17,040 --> 02:26:20,200
Speaker 16: upper thigh, a procedure only the most skilled surgeon and

2392
02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:24,199
Speaker 16: SAD mastered. Unfortunately, the available needle was the wrong length

2393
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:27,960
Speaker 16: for it to work properly. Lockett reportedly was stoic throughout

2394
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:31,080
Speaker 16: this repeated assault on his body. After an hour of

2395
02:26:31,120 --> 02:26:33,560
Speaker 16: this torture had passed, the execution team was finally able

2396
02:26:33,560 --> 02:26:37,680
Speaker 16: to inject the deadly drugs. Lockett groaned, convulsed, and at

2397
02:26:37,680 --> 02:26:41,080
Speaker 16: one point was asked, are you unconscious? According to witnesses,

2398
02:26:41,080 --> 02:26:43,640
Speaker 16: Lockett opened his eyes and said no, I am not.

2399
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:47,560
Speaker 16: After appearing to fall asleep, he began to moan, arched

2400
02:26:47,560 --> 02:26:49,880
Speaker 16: his back, and kicked a foot before he strained against

2401
02:26:49,879 --> 02:26:52,720
Speaker 16: the straps holding him against the gurney, and he tried

2402
02:26:52,720 --> 02:26:56,520
Speaker 16: to get up. Lockett mumbled something is wrong, oh man,

2403
02:26:56,879 --> 02:27:00,600
Speaker 16: and this shit is fucking up my mind, and Warden

2404
02:27:00,720 --> 02:27:04,959
Speaker 16: ordered the blinds closed as the execution team scrambled. Swelling

2405
02:27:05,000 --> 02:27:07,400
Speaker 16: had developed with the ivy had been inserted and was

2406
02:27:07,440 --> 02:27:10,560
Speaker 16: blocking the flow of the third and final lethal drug.

2407
02:27:10,959 --> 02:27:13,560
Speaker 16: The doctor was summoned to insert a needle and Lockett's

2408
02:27:13,600 --> 02:27:16,760
Speaker 16: other femeral vein, but Lockett was bleeding heavily and the

2409
02:27:16,760 --> 02:27:20,840
Speaker 16: blood backed up into the ivy line. Oklahoma Governor Mary

2410
02:27:20,920 --> 02:27:24,440
Speaker 16: Fallon had already decided to halt the execution, but by

2411
02:27:24,480 --> 02:27:29,560
Speaker 16: this point Lockett's heart had irreversibly slowed down. He subsequently

2412
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:33,240
Speaker 16: died of heart failure. The entire execution from the first

2413
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:35,600
Speaker 16: attempt to stick an ivy in his veins to his

2414
02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:39,280
Speaker 16: death less than one hour and forty seven minutes. That

2415
02:27:39,360 --> 02:27:43,240
Speaker 16: was one of the longest executions in American history. The

2416
02:27:43,240 --> 02:27:46,560
Speaker 16: state of Oklahoma later falsely claimed that Lockett had been

2417
02:27:46,600 --> 02:27:50,680
Speaker 16: unconscious the entire time. In twenty twenty two, another so

2418
02:27:50,840 --> 02:27:55,760
Speaker 16: called botched lethal injection, that of Joe Nathan James and Alabama,

2419
02:27:56,120 --> 02:28:00,440
Speaker 16: lasted three hours. In Ohio and elsewhere, execution had to

2420
02:28:00,480 --> 02:28:03,800
Speaker 16: be abandoned when the prison staff couldn't get an iv going.

2421
02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:07,760
Speaker 15: As we mentioned in the first episode, Reverend Jeff Hood

2422
02:28:07,879 --> 02:28:10,680
Speaker 15: is a priest under the old Catholic Right, who, by

2423
02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:14,320
Speaker 15: the time we interviewed, had accompanied ten men during their executions.

2424
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:17,400
Speaker 15: He said that even the most professional execution is brutal,

2425
02:28:17,760 --> 02:28:20,600
Speaker 15: but that some states, because of a regrettable amount of practice,

2426
02:28:21,080 --> 02:28:23,080
Speaker 15: are much better at killing than others.

2427
02:28:23,959 --> 02:28:25,959
Speaker 7: I do think that some states know what they're doing

2428
02:28:25,959 --> 02:28:31,039
Speaker 7: more than others, and I think that Texas knows what

2429
02:28:31,080 --> 02:28:36,400
Speaker 7: they're doing. You don't see botched, are delayed or mishandled

2430
02:28:36,440 --> 02:28:42,200
Speaker 7: executions in Texas. They go very quickly. And when you

2431
02:28:42,240 --> 02:28:44,760
Speaker 7: talk to these guys, that's what they say. They would prefer.

2432
02:28:45,160 --> 02:28:47,000
Speaker 7: If you're going to be executed, you would want to

2433
02:28:47,040 --> 02:28:48,280
Speaker 7: go as.

2434
02:28:47,840 --> 02:28:50,360
Speaker 14: Quickly as possible. Yes, there are.

2435
02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:54,240
Speaker 7: Some executions that look horrific. There are other executions that

2436
02:28:54,280 --> 02:28:56,040
Speaker 7: don't go according to plan but don't get a lot

2437
02:28:56,080 --> 02:29:00,400
Speaker 7: of attention. But they're all horrible, and I think they

2438
02:29:00,440 --> 02:29:03,200
Speaker 7: all have to be talked about as such.

2439
02:29:04,360 --> 02:29:06,920
Speaker 16: Whether it's because of the awareness of the messy and

2440
02:29:07,040 --> 02:29:11,560
Speaker 16: undeniably painful executions like those of Lockett and James, the

2441
02:29:11,640 --> 02:29:14,920
Speaker 16: more than two hundred death row exonerations achieved by groups

2442
02:29:14,959 --> 02:29:19,080
Speaker 16: like the Innocence Project, the growing skepticism of law enforcement

2443
02:29:19,080 --> 02:29:23,040
Speaker 16: amongst young people, are the greater consciousness of how racism

2444
02:29:23,120 --> 02:29:27,920
Speaker 16: warps the entire criminal justicism. There's no question the death

2445
02:29:27,959 --> 02:29:30,800
Speaker 16: penalty is the least popular it has been in the

2446
02:29:30,840 --> 02:29:34,800
Speaker 16: past hundred years. Nor is their doubt that the rate

2447
02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:38,240
Speaker 16: of executions in the United States has dropped well below

2448
02:29:38,280 --> 02:29:41,080
Speaker 16: its peak during the height of the war and crime

2449
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:46,280
Speaker 16: under the Clinton administration, when in nineteen ninety nine, three

2450
02:29:46,320 --> 02:29:49,280
Speaker 16: hundred and fifteen death sentences were handed down, or in

2451
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:53,040
Speaker 16: nineteen ninety six, when ninety eight prisoners were executed.

2452
02:29:53,840 --> 02:29:57,279
Speaker 15: In any case, deaths like Lockett's are bad for business

2453
02:29:57,280 --> 02:30:00,600
Speaker 15: for the pharmaceutical companies who have produced the drug used

2454
02:30:00,720 --> 02:30:03,720
Speaker 15: in lethal injections. In the next and final episode of

2455
02:30:03,720 --> 02:30:06,520
Speaker 15: this three part series on the shady business of lethal injection,

2456
02:30:06,920 --> 02:30:08,800
Speaker 15: we'll talk about how some states like Texas have been

2457
02:30:08,800 --> 02:30:11,080
Speaker 15: forced to turn to the black market or the so

2458
02:30:11,200 --> 02:30:15,400
Speaker 15: called gray market to buy lethal drugs, as pharmaceutical companies

2459
02:30:15,520 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 15: have restricted the purchase of those drugs for that purpose.

2460
02:30:19,200 --> 02:30:21,560
Speaker 15: We also talked to Jeff Hood about how the difficulty

2461
02:30:21,560 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 15: in obtaining those drugs has led states like Alabama to

2462
02:30:24,400 --> 02:30:26,920
Speaker 15: turn to one of the most gruesome forms of execution yet.

2463
02:30:27,440 --> 02:30:29,640
Speaker 15: And we'll also hear the story of Race Buyan, a

2464
02:30:29,720 --> 02:30:31,959
Speaker 15: victim of a hate crime who fought to prevent the

2465
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:36,640
Speaker 15: execution of his white supremacist attacker. And finally, we'll explore

2466
02:30:36,640 --> 02:30:39,160
Speaker 15: whether the death penalty might be on its last legs

2467
02:30:39,320 --> 02:30:42,640
Speaker 15: in the United States. I'm Stephen Monchelly for it could

2468
02:30:42,640 --> 02:30:44,199
Speaker 15: happen here, and so next.

2469
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:46,520
Speaker 16: Time, I'm Michael Phillips. Thanks for listening.

2470
02:30:58,240 --> 02:31:01,320
Speaker 15: A warning, this episode included it's violent content, which some

2471
02:31:01,480 --> 02:31:02,920
Speaker 15: listeners might find disturbing.

2472
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:09,920
Speaker 16: I'm Michael Phillips, an historian, the author of a history

2473
02:31:09,959 --> 02:31:13,119
Speaker 16: of racism in Dallas called White and Tropolis, and the

2474
02:31:13,120 --> 02:31:17,039
Speaker 16: co author of longtime journalists Betsy Freeoff the history of

2475
02:31:17,080 --> 02:31:19,600
Speaker 16: eugenics in Texas called Purifying Knife.

2476
02:31:19,760 --> 02:31:20,840
Speaker 13: And I'm Stephen Broncholi.

2477
02:31:21,000 --> 02:31:24,480
Speaker 15: I'm an investigative journalist in Dallas who specializes in political

2478
02:31:24,520 --> 02:31:27,600
Speaker 15: extremism and the far right. And I report for places

2479
02:31:27,600 --> 02:31:30,039
Speaker 15: like the Texas Observer, the Barbed Wire and more.

2480
02:31:30,840 --> 02:31:34,560
Speaker 16: Like millions across the United States. Mark Anthony Strohman was

2481
02:31:34,640 --> 02:31:38,320
Speaker 16: startled by the events then folded on the terrible morning

2482
02:31:38,320 --> 02:31:41,880
Speaker 16: of September eleventh, two thousand and one. The disbelief that

2483
02:31:42,040 --> 02:31:45,200
Speaker 16: greeted that terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center and

2484
02:31:45,240 --> 02:31:48,000
Speaker 16: the Pentagon can be heard on the first announcement of

2485
02:31:48,000 --> 02:31:51,760
Speaker 16: the tragedy on a Dallas talk radio station WBAP.

2486
02:31:54,040 --> 02:31:56,920
Speaker 25: All right, thank you our seven fifty one, nine minutes

2487
02:31:56,920 --> 02:32:00,560
Speaker 25: before eight o'clock, a Dues talk a TWENTYBA here on

2488
02:32:00,600 --> 02:32:04,760
Speaker 25: the here on the Tuesday morning, and the reason I

2489
02:32:04,800 --> 02:32:07,400
Speaker 25: am hesitating here with there's a word of a plane

2490
02:32:07,480 --> 02:32:11,800
Speaker 25: crashing into the World Trade Center in downtown Manhattan, and

2491
02:32:12,080 --> 02:32:15,879
Speaker 25: the World Trade of plane actually crashing and to the

2492
02:32:16,000 --> 02:32:18,400
Speaker 25: side of the World Trade Center. We're gonna have details

2493
02:32:18,440 --> 02:32:21,000
Speaker 25: for you on that form ABCDWS in just a couple

2494
02:32:21,000 --> 02:32:21,520
Speaker 25: of moments.

2495
02:32:22,879 --> 02:32:26,400
Speaker 16: Strowman later wrote that September eleventh filled him with a

2496
02:32:26,440 --> 02:32:30,920
Speaker 16: great sense of rage, hatred, loss, bitterness, and utter degradation.

2497
02:32:31,840 --> 02:32:34,760
Speaker 16: He blamed Arabs and Muslims as a group for the

2498
02:32:34,800 --> 02:32:38,120
Speaker 16: events that day and wanted to quote those Arabs to

2499
02:32:38,200 --> 02:32:42,160
Speaker 16: feel the same sense of insecurity about their immediate surroundings.

2500
02:32:42,520 --> 02:32:45,160
Speaker 16: I wanted to feel the same sense of vulnerability and

2501
02:32:45,280 --> 02:32:46,959
Speaker 16: uncertainty on American soil.

2502
02:32:47,840 --> 02:32:51,560
Speaker 15: Stroman Dallas resident, had already served two prison terms, during

2503
02:32:51,560 --> 02:32:55,080
Speaker 15: which he had joined the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang. Addicted

2504
02:32:55,080 --> 02:32:58,360
Speaker 15: to math and sporting neo Nazi tattoos, he began cruising

2505
02:32:58,440 --> 02:33:01,280
Speaker 15: Dallas in his nineteen seventy two ship Suban hunting for

2506
02:33:01,680 --> 02:33:05,359
Speaker 15: quote unquote Arabs. As he later admitted, he wasn't entirely

2507
02:33:05,400 --> 02:33:09,320
Speaker 15: sure what an Arab looked like, but Nevertheless, he stalked

2508
02:33:09,320 --> 02:33:11,640
Speaker 15: people with quote shawls on their faces.

2509
02:33:12,520 --> 02:33:15,800
Speaker 16: Stroman launched his crusade by running cars into ditches if

2510
02:33:15,800 --> 02:33:20,080
Speaker 16: he suspected the vehicles were driven by Muslims. He escalated

2511
02:33:20,120 --> 02:33:23,240
Speaker 16: his campaign of terror. On September seventeenth, two thousand and one,

2512
02:33:24,040 --> 02:33:27,440
Speaker 16: he fatally shot Wakar Hassan, a forty six year old

2513
02:33:27,440 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 16: Pakistani immigrant, as the clerk grilled to Hamburger and Mom's

2514
02:33:31,320 --> 02:33:35,240
Speaker 16: Grocery in Dallas. A few days later, Stroman found his

2515
02:33:35,320 --> 02:33:39,440
Speaker 16: next victim, a farmer pilot for Bangladesh's Air Force named

2516
02:33:39,520 --> 02:33:44,600
Speaker 16: Race Bouyan. Mister Bouyan, who has experienced robberies prior to

2517
02:33:44,640 --> 02:33:47,959
Speaker 16: his encounter with Stroman, told us what happened that day.

2518
02:33:48,760 --> 02:33:51,960
Speaker 12: Sent the Maturity First, two thousand and one to us

2519
02:33:51,959 --> 02:33:59,000
Speaker 12: friday eron Juen, a customer walked in wearing bandana, sunglasses,

2520
02:33:59,200 --> 02:34:03,640
Speaker 12: baseball cap and holding a double barrel a sort of

2521
02:34:03,720 --> 02:34:07,360
Speaker 12: double barrel's shotgun on his right side. And from the

2522
02:34:07,440 --> 02:34:10,240
Speaker 12: previous rubbery experience, I thought it would be on the robbery,

2523
02:34:11,320 --> 02:34:14,760
Speaker 12: so I put all the money on the counter and

2524
02:34:14,920 --> 02:34:17,400
Speaker 12: offered him the cash as soon as he walked in,

2525
02:34:17,480 --> 02:34:21,039
Speaker 12: and I said, sir, here is all the money, take it,

2526
02:34:21,480 --> 02:34:25,520
Speaker 12: but please do not shoot me. Basically, I begged for

2527
02:34:25,640 --> 02:34:31,120
Speaker 12: my life and his gaze remained fixed, and then he

2528
02:34:31,240 --> 02:34:36,080
Speaker 12: mumbled a question, where are you from. Before I could

2529
02:34:36,080 --> 02:34:40,480
Speaker 12: say anything more than excuse me, he pulled the trigger

2530
02:34:40,800 --> 02:34:47,560
Speaker 12: from point blankrent. I felt it first, like a million

2531
02:34:47,600 --> 02:34:50,879
Speaker 12: bees were singing my friends. And I looked down and

2532
02:34:50,959 --> 02:34:54,200
Speaker 12: saw blood pouring like an open facet from the right

2533
02:34:54,200 --> 02:35:00,480
Speaker 12: set of my head, and I remember a screw mom

2534
02:35:00,640 --> 02:35:04,400
Speaker 12: to book my voice. And I looked down some block

2535
02:35:04,480 --> 02:35:06,480
Speaker 12: pouring like an open bosset from the right set of

2536
02:35:06,520 --> 02:35:09,760
Speaker 12: my head, and then I looked left. I saw the

2537
02:35:09,800 --> 02:35:14,560
Speaker 12: gunman still standing, pointing that on director of phrase, and

2538
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:20,039
Speaker 12: I realized that if I did not, you know, do

2539
02:35:20,200 --> 02:35:23,240
Speaker 12: something to show that I'm dying, he might shoot be again.

2540
02:35:23,959 --> 02:35:27,760
Speaker 12: So I fell to the floor and he finally left a.

2541
02:35:27,720 --> 02:35:30,240
Speaker 7: Few seconds beyond.

2542
02:35:30,280 --> 02:35:33,279
Speaker 15: Survived the attack, but he was blinded in his right eye.

2543
02:35:33,720 --> 02:35:36,960
Speaker 15: He would endure not only multiple painful surgeries, but also

2544
02:35:37,040 --> 02:35:41,160
Speaker 15: the unique financial horrors of the American health care system. Meanwhile,

2545
02:35:41,240 --> 02:35:44,480
Speaker 15: Stroman was not done terrorizing the Dallas area Muslim community.

2546
02:35:45,080 --> 02:35:48,000
Speaker 15: On October fourth, the shooting spree came to an end

2547
02:35:48,200 --> 02:35:50,480
Speaker 15: when the white supremacist pulled up to a shell station

2548
02:35:50,560 --> 02:35:53,039
Speaker 15: in Mesquite at about six forty five in the morning

2549
02:35:53,240 --> 02:35:56,560
Speaker 15: and ordered the clerk, forty nine year old Vasa Dev Patel,

2550
02:35:56,600 --> 02:35:59,440
Speaker 15: a Hindu immigrant from India, to hand over all the

2551
02:35:59,440 --> 02:36:03,039
Speaker 15: money from the cash register. Patel reached under the counter

2552
02:36:03,160 --> 02:36:06,600
Speaker 15: for a twenty two caliber pistol, and seeing the gun,

2553
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:10,240
Speaker 15: Stroman fired his weapon. The bullet struck Patel in his

2554
02:36:10,360 --> 02:36:14,039
Speaker 15: chest and killed him. A security camera captured the scene,

2555
02:36:14,320 --> 02:36:16,680
Speaker 15: and Dallas police arrested Stroman the next day.

2556
02:36:17,440 --> 02:36:21,560
Speaker 16: At Stroman's home, investigators found a semi automatic rifle, an

2557
02:36:21,720 --> 02:36:25,480
Speaker 16: Uzi knockoff, a forty four magnum, and a forty five

2558
02:36:25,600 --> 02:36:29,440
Speaker 16: cult They also found evidence that Stroman planted to attack

2559
02:36:29,480 --> 02:36:33,800
Speaker 16: a mosque in a nearby suburb. Jury found Strouman guilty

2560
02:36:33,800 --> 02:36:36,320
Speaker 16: of capital murder in April fifth, two thousand and two,

2561
02:36:36,800 --> 02:36:40,680
Speaker 16: and sends him to die by lethal injection. The story

2562
02:36:40,720 --> 02:36:44,480
Speaker 16: then took an unexpected turn. During a two thousand and

2563
02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:48,720
Speaker 16: nine pilgrimage to Mecca, Bujan said he realized that simply

2564
02:36:48,760 --> 02:36:52,680
Speaker 16: forgiving his assailant would not be enough. He believed he

2565
02:36:52,760 --> 02:36:54,840
Speaker 16: had a moral obligation to do all they could to

2566
02:36:54,840 --> 02:36:59,360
Speaker 16: prevent Stroman's death, Buyan filed a lawsuit attempting to halt

2567
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:03,959
Speaker 16: Strouman's ey execution. Despite of Bouyon's best effort, the suit

2568
02:37:04,080 --> 02:37:07,360
Speaker 16: was rejected by state and federal courts, and Stroman died

2569
02:37:07,360 --> 02:37:10,720
Speaker 16: by lethal injection July twenty, twenty eleven.

2570
02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:14,680
Speaker 15: Beyond's campaign of mercy, however, made a major impact on

2571
02:37:14,720 --> 02:37:18,680
Speaker 15: capital punishment in the United States. He effectively shamed European

2572
02:37:18,720 --> 02:37:21,600
Speaker 15: drug companies, debanning the use of the products used in

2573
02:37:21,640 --> 02:37:24,959
Speaker 15: the lethal injection that killed Stroman. In turn, some states,

2574
02:37:25,000 --> 02:37:29,080
Speaker 15: like Texas, decided to start buying lethal drugs illegally. In

2575
02:37:29,120 --> 02:37:31,720
Speaker 15: this final episode on the history of the lethal injection

2576
02:37:31,720 --> 02:37:33,959
Speaker 15: in the United States, Beyond will tell us about his

2577
02:37:34,000 --> 02:37:37,320
Speaker 15: campaign against capital punishment and its impact. Will also speak

2578
02:37:37,320 --> 02:37:40,160
Speaker 15: to a priest, the Reverend Jeff Hood, who has accompanied,

2579
02:37:40,160 --> 02:37:43,039
Speaker 15: by the time of this interview, ten men to their executions.

2580
02:37:43,640 --> 02:37:46,160
Speaker 15: He will also tell us why he has devoted himself

2581
02:37:46,160 --> 02:37:50,039
Speaker 15: to showing love to people so despised, and also address

2582
02:37:50,160 --> 02:37:52,840
Speaker 15: the future of the death penalty in the United States.

2583
02:37:54,080 --> 02:37:58,320
Speaker 16: After being blinded in a hate crime race, Beyond struggles

2584
02:37:58,320 --> 02:38:02,119
Speaker 16: through numerous traumas. He told us that after getting shot

2585
02:38:02,120 --> 02:38:04,240
Speaker 16: at the convenience story where he worked. He ran to

2586
02:38:04,320 --> 02:38:07,760
Speaker 16: a barber shop next door. There he had the first

2587
02:38:07,760 --> 02:38:08,879
Speaker 16: sight of his injuries.

2588
02:38:09,320 --> 02:38:12,439
Speaker 12: I caught myself in the mirror, and the image reflected

2589
02:38:12,480 --> 02:38:16,520
Speaker 12: back was like something off of a horror movie. And

2590
02:38:16,920 --> 02:38:20,520
Speaker 12: on my way to the hospital, I felt my eyes

2591
02:38:20,560 --> 02:38:25,640
Speaker 12: were closing. I felt that my time was up. And

2592
02:38:25,720 --> 02:38:27,640
Speaker 12: you know, while I was reciting from the Holy Koran

2593
02:38:27,720 --> 02:38:30,040
Speaker 12: and asking God for mercy and forgiveness and giving you

2594
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:33,200
Speaker 12: a second chance, I also begged him to, you know,

2595
02:38:34,120 --> 02:38:36,119
Speaker 12: to send my life, to give me a chance to live.

2596
02:38:37,120 --> 02:38:39,760
Speaker 12: And I promised God that if you give me a

2597
02:38:39,840 --> 02:38:42,359
Speaker 12: chance to live, I would help others.

2598
02:38:42,879 --> 02:38:46,160
Speaker 15: In the emergency room, doctors put Beyond on life support

2599
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:49,720
Speaker 15: for time. His condition was touch and go. Beyond, a

2600
02:38:49,760 --> 02:38:52,760
Speaker 15: young immigrant living on his salary as a convenience store clerk,

2601
02:38:52,800 --> 02:38:55,400
Speaker 15: said that when he next opened his eyes and doctors

2602
02:38:55,440 --> 02:38:57,760
Speaker 15: told him he had survived, he cried tears of joy.

2603
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:01,040
Speaker 12: So my eyes were full of tears, not from the pain,

2604
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:04,400
Speaker 12: but from the joy of it still being alive, but

2605
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:07,880
Speaker 12: then joining the last long because the hospital where I

2606
02:39:07,920 --> 02:39:10,840
Speaker 12: was taken was private and expensive, and I had no

2607
02:39:10,879 --> 02:39:13,960
Speaker 12: health insurance at the time. So they discharged me with

2608
02:39:14,120 --> 02:39:16,480
Speaker 12: a couple of hours and told me to arrange follow

2609
02:39:16,560 --> 02:39:19,440
Speaker 12: up medical treatments on my own. So, you know, the

2610
02:39:19,480 --> 02:39:21,959
Speaker 12: first part of my American nightmare was being shot in

2611
02:39:22,000 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 12: the face after nine to eleven, and second part began

2612
02:39:24,920 --> 02:39:27,720
Speaker 12: when I was kicked up from the hospital. So as

2613
02:39:27,760 --> 02:39:32,920
Speaker 12: a result of this shooting, I you know, underwent several

2614
02:39:32,920 --> 02:39:35,200
Speaker 12: eye surgeries and putting meately. Though I lost the mission

2615
02:39:35,240 --> 02:39:38,720
Speaker 12: in one eye, I still carry more than three dozen

2616
02:39:38,760 --> 02:39:43,520
Speaker 12: shut palats on my face. And my father suffered a

2617
02:39:43,520 --> 02:39:46,240
Speaker 12: stroke when he heard what about what happened to me,

2618
02:39:46,520 --> 02:39:50,560
Speaker 12: But luckily he's a bide. I lost my fiance but

2619
02:39:50,720 --> 02:39:53,800
Speaker 12: gained more than sixty thousand dollars in medical bills.

2620
02:39:54,600 --> 02:39:59,119
Speaker 16: As Strumman languished on Texas death Row, Buyan began picking

2621
02:39:59,200 --> 02:39:59,880
Speaker 16: up the pieces.

2622
02:40:00,720 --> 02:40:03,760
Speaker 12: I moved on rebuilding my life. I worked in restaurant

2623
02:40:03,800 --> 02:40:06,560
Speaker 12: and went back to school, and slowly I was, you know,

2624
02:40:07,720 --> 02:40:11,320
Speaker 12: planning the letter and getting better in my own you know,

2625
02:40:11,760 --> 02:40:14,840
Speaker 12: life journey. And in two thousand and nine I went

2626
02:40:14,879 --> 02:40:18,600
Speaker 12: the Macta for pilgrimage my mother and it wasn't Mecca.

2627
02:40:18,680 --> 02:40:23,080
Speaker 12: I deeply realized that though I forgave my attack on

2628
02:40:23,160 --> 02:40:28,000
Speaker 12: markstrument it was not an hour. I felt that, you know,

2629
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:31,240
Speaker 12: by executing Mark, we would simply lose a human life

2630
02:40:31,240 --> 02:40:31,920
Speaker 12: with a dealing with.

2631
02:40:31,879 --> 02:40:32,560
Speaker 14: The hood cause.

2632
02:40:33,480 --> 02:40:36,000
Speaker 12: I strongly believed that if he was giving a chance,

2633
02:40:36,040 --> 02:40:38,800
Speaker 12: he might be able to become a better human being.

2634
02:40:39,400 --> 02:40:42,600
Speaker 12: And I began to see him as a human being

2635
02:40:42,720 --> 02:40:46,200
Speaker 12: like me, not just simply a killer. I saw him

2636
02:40:46,520 --> 02:40:50,600
Speaker 12: as a victim too, and I befelt for him. And

2637
02:40:50,640 --> 02:40:53,560
Speaker 12: I remember my promise on my deathdad that if I

2638
02:40:53,560 --> 02:40:56,200
Speaker 12: did a chance to live, I would help others. And

2639
02:40:56,240 --> 02:40:59,199
Speaker 12: I felt that I need to start with him first

2640
02:41:00,120 --> 02:41:03,959
Speaker 12: to get my cromnies. So I've returned from Mecca with

2641
02:41:04,040 --> 02:41:08,680
Speaker 12: a very changed heart. We get clarity, and then you

2642
02:41:08,840 --> 02:41:13,840
Speaker 12: found partners, and I launched a campaign to try and

2643
02:41:13,879 --> 02:41:16,119
Speaker 12: save my attack. That's life from Texas Detro.

2644
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:19,039
Speaker 15: We'll pick up the story of Beyon's campaign to spare

2645
02:41:19,040 --> 02:41:21,520
Speaker 15: Stroman's life and how his efforts changed the history of

2646
02:41:21,520 --> 02:41:22,600
Speaker 15: the American death penalty.

2647
02:41:23,200 --> 02:41:24,360
Speaker 13: After a word from our.

2648
02:41:24,240 --> 02:41:38,760
Speaker 15: Sponsors, Doctor Rick Halprin began teaching human rights courses at

2649
02:41:38,840 --> 02:41:42,280
Speaker 15: Southern Methodist University in Dallas in nineteen ninety, where he

2650
02:41:42,320 --> 02:41:45,039
Speaker 15: now heads one of only nine human rights programs at

2651
02:41:45,080 --> 02:41:48,080
Speaker 15: the universities in the country. He has also chaired Amnesty

2652
02:41:48,120 --> 02:41:51,600
Speaker 15: International's Board of Directors three times, and since nineteen seventy

2653
02:41:51,640 --> 02:41:56,120
Speaker 15: two has been an anti death penalty activist. Halbert became

2654
02:41:56,200 --> 02:41:58,480
Speaker 15: famous on Texas death Row as a result of his

2655
02:41:58,520 --> 02:42:02,400
Speaker 15: efforts and was informed of his July twentieth, twenty eleven

2656
02:42:02,440 --> 02:42:05,199
Speaker 15: execution date. The condemned man wrote a letter to Halperin

2657
02:42:05,320 --> 02:42:09,080
Speaker 15: asking for help in making final arrangements, such as locating

2658
02:42:09,120 --> 02:42:10,280
Speaker 15: an affordable undertaker.

2659
02:42:10,800 --> 02:42:14,039
Speaker 16: By coincidence, shortly after Stroman reached out to Halperin, the

2660
02:42:14,040 --> 02:42:18,080
Speaker 16: professor received a surprise visitor to his office. The stranger

2661
02:42:18,280 --> 02:42:22,400
Speaker 16: was Stroman's victim, Race bu yan Yan, who had recently

2662
02:42:22,440 --> 02:42:25,600
Speaker 16: become an American citistant, hoped Halperin could help him find

2663
02:42:25,680 --> 02:42:28,800
Speaker 16: a creative and effective way to fulfill the promise he

2664
02:42:28,840 --> 02:42:30,560
Speaker 16: had made to God when he thought he was dying.

2665
02:42:31,360 --> 02:42:35,680
Speaker 16: He began his campaign to save Stroman's life. U Yan, Halpern,

2666
02:42:35,920 --> 02:42:39,840
Speaker 16: and another human rights activist, Hati Juwad, carried their efforts

2667
02:42:39,840 --> 02:42:42,680
Speaker 16: from Dallas to the state capitol in Austin and as

2668
02:42:42,680 --> 02:42:44,359
Speaker 16: far as the European Parliament.

2669
02:42:45,120 --> 02:42:48,280
Speaker 15: A weak point in the American death penalty machinery was

2670
02:42:48,440 --> 02:42:51,959
Speaker 15: its reliance on companies that provided the lethal injection chemicals.

2671
02:42:52,560 --> 02:42:56,920
Speaker 15: In twenty eleven, Italy, an anti death penalty nation, successfully

2672
02:42:56,959 --> 02:43:01,360
Speaker 15: pressured the Illinois company Hospira to stop selling sodium theopental,

2673
02:43:01,680 --> 02:43:04,920
Speaker 15: the muscle relaxant used in the three drug lethal injection

2674
02:43:04,959 --> 02:43:08,120
Speaker 15: protocol used in Texas since the early nineteen eighties. That

2675
02:43:08,280 --> 02:43:12,480
Speaker 15: same year, Reprieve, a British human rights nonprofit, arranged for

2676
02:43:12,520 --> 02:43:14,680
Speaker 15: Beyond to travel to Europe to meet face to face

2677
02:43:14,920 --> 02:43:17,959
Speaker 15: with executives at the corporate headquarters of the Danish pharmaceutical

2678
02:43:18,000 --> 02:43:21,920
Speaker 15: company Lundbeck. Aware that the meeting would put them in

2679
02:43:21,959 --> 02:43:26,280
Speaker 15: the international spotlight, Lundbeck three days prior, announced that they

2680
02:43:26,280 --> 02:43:30,320
Speaker 15: would stop shipping the sedative nembitol, which was being used

2681
02:43:30,360 --> 02:43:33,959
Speaker 15: as a substitute for sodium theopenthal to American prison systems.

2682
02:43:34,440 --> 02:43:38,039
Speaker 15: Beyond described his conversation with the Lumbeck company an interview

2683
02:43:38,040 --> 02:43:39,120
Speaker 15: with US the.

2684
02:43:39,200 --> 02:43:43,800
Speaker 12: One hour of great conversation. They agreed to write a

2685
02:43:43,879 --> 02:43:46,959
Speaker 12: letter to the governor of Kixas asking him not to

2686
02:43:47,080 --> 02:43:48,879
Speaker 12: use their product to kill him and being.

2687
02:43:49,400 --> 02:43:51,959
Speaker 16: The state of Texas, however, was unwilling to grant a

2688
02:43:52,000 --> 02:43:56,720
Speaker 16: crime victim as fervent wish. Even though Texas politicians repeatedly

2689
02:43:56,760 --> 02:44:01,320
Speaker 16: claimed they execute murderers to bring the victims closure, Bouyon

2690
02:44:01,360 --> 02:44:04,120
Speaker 16: said he was denied this by the Texas Border Paroles

2691
02:44:04,120 --> 02:44:06,560
Speaker 16: and Pardons and then Governor Rick Perry.

2692
02:44:07,280 --> 02:44:11,560
Speaker 12: I reached out to the prison system and UH asking

2693
02:44:11,640 --> 02:44:16,400
Speaker 12: for a mediation dialogue, but unfortunately, you know, that turned

2694
02:44:16,440 --> 02:44:22,760
Speaker 12: down my request multiple times, and the reason they showed

2695
02:44:23,680 --> 02:44:28,880
Speaker 12: was it would really victimize me. So basically a mediation dialogue.

2696
02:44:29,440 --> 02:44:32,280
Speaker 12: I thought it would be helpful for me to find closure,

2697
02:44:32,440 --> 02:44:36,320
Speaker 12: to find a lot of answers, but it was for

2698
02:44:36,400 --> 02:44:40,039
Speaker 12: them it to be, you know, a revictimization process for me.

2699
02:44:40,200 --> 02:44:44,960
Speaker 12: So they they rejected my request to multiple times, and

2700
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:48,760
Speaker 12: it really made me sad that when they needed me

2701
02:44:48,840 --> 02:44:52,160
Speaker 12: to testify in the core the conviction to get the

2702
02:44:52,200 --> 02:44:56,120
Speaker 12: death penalty, I was a good victim, but then when

2703
02:44:56,160 --> 02:44:58,800
Speaker 12: I tried to exercise my right as a victim to

2704
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:02,240
Speaker 12: have a mediation dialog, love, I became a bad victim

2705
02:45:02,560 --> 02:45:03,800
Speaker 12: because I asked when my rights.

2706
02:45:04,760 --> 02:45:08,880
Speaker 16: In his final hour, Strowman spoke directly to his surviving victim.

2707
02:45:09,760 --> 02:45:12,440
Speaker 12: I had the opportunity to talk to him of the

2708
02:45:12,440 --> 02:45:16,360
Speaker 12: phone before he was executed, and it was the day

2709
02:45:16,400 --> 02:45:19,280
Speaker 12: of his execution where he put my name as one

2710
02:45:19,320 --> 02:45:23,039
Speaker 12: of the people he would be able to talk. So

2711
02:45:23,160 --> 02:45:26,560
Speaker 12: I was lucky enough to talk to him. And when

2712
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:29,920
Speaker 12: he came on the phone, I was about to, you know,

2713
02:45:31,440 --> 02:45:35,160
Speaker 12: go to the court to give a last fight to,

2714
02:45:35,640 --> 02:45:39,120
Speaker 12: you know, stead the execution. So I was thinking, what

2715
02:45:39,160 --> 02:45:41,560
Speaker 12: would I say to a human being who is about

2716
02:45:41,600 --> 02:45:44,320
Speaker 12: to be executed in a couple of hours. And I'm

2717
02:45:44,360 --> 02:45:47,160
Speaker 12: going to, you know, go to a court to give

2718
02:45:47,200 --> 02:45:50,840
Speaker 12: a you know, last fight to to you know, see

2719
02:45:50,840 --> 02:45:54,320
Speaker 12: if he could say him. So I was very emotional

2720
02:45:54,400 --> 02:45:57,920
Speaker 12: when he came on the phone. I told him that Mark,

2721
02:45:58,680 --> 02:46:02,640
Speaker 12: you know for sure that I never hated you. I

2722
02:46:02,800 --> 02:46:05,879
Speaker 12: forgave you and I'm doing my best to you know,

2723
02:46:06,600 --> 02:46:11,760
Speaker 12: save your life, you know, through this court hearing. And

2724
02:46:11,800 --> 02:46:15,680
Speaker 12: he said that the ways I never expected that from you,

2725
02:46:16,760 --> 02:46:21,360
Speaker 12: and I love you, brother, And that brought tears into

2726
02:46:21,360 --> 02:46:24,119
Speaker 12: my eyes. That it is the same human being who

2727
02:46:24,120 --> 02:46:27,080
Speaker 12: shocked me for no reasons other than having hated and

2728
02:46:27,200 --> 02:46:31,480
Speaker 12: violence in his horror. And now ten years later he

2729
02:46:31,520 --> 02:46:33,920
Speaker 12: saw me, he could see me as his brother, and

2730
02:46:33,959 --> 02:46:36,720
Speaker 12: he said he loved me. Why he couldn't see me

2731
02:46:36,800 --> 02:46:39,879
Speaker 12: as his brother ten years ago, and why he could

2732
02:46:39,920 --> 02:46:43,320
Speaker 12: he say the same thing ten years ago. So, you know,

2733
02:46:44,360 --> 02:46:47,039
Speaker 12: at least it helped me to find closer a little bit.

2734
02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:50,520
Speaker 12: It helped me to move forward. At least I had

2735
02:46:50,520 --> 02:46:55,120
Speaker 12: the chance to talk to my attacker and then gave

2736
02:46:55,120 --> 02:46:57,080
Speaker 12: me a lot of hope that people can change.

2737
02:46:58,360 --> 02:47:01,920
Speaker 15: The execution itself, however, left Beyond cold.

2738
02:47:02,360 --> 02:47:05,080
Speaker 12: Well definitely in this execution that was not of the victims,

2739
02:47:05,080 --> 02:47:09,440
Speaker 12: because the victims and the victims' family members requested and

2740
02:47:09,520 --> 02:47:14,120
Speaker 12: also fought for clemency. You know, we went ahead and

2741
02:47:14,240 --> 02:47:17,360
Speaker 12: requested the Governor of Texas, the Board of Burdens and

2742
02:47:17,400 --> 02:47:21,320
Speaker 12: Pearls that did not execute him in all names in

2743
02:47:21,360 --> 02:47:21,680
Speaker 12: a show.

2744
02:47:21,760 --> 02:47:26,800
Speaker 15: Marcie Mark Strowman died as scheduled on July twentieth, twenty eleven,

2745
02:47:27,280 --> 02:47:30,280
Speaker 15: and though Beyond and Halprint failed to stop it, they

2746
02:47:30,400 --> 02:47:33,840
Speaker 15: had helped start an international movement to thwart the ability

2747
02:47:33,959 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 15: of states to carry out such lethal injections, as Professor

2748
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:41,040
Speaker 15: Colorine Elaine revealed in her book Secrets of the Killing State.

2749
02:47:41,680 --> 02:47:45,760
Speaker 15: After Haspira stopped producing sodium theopental, the vacuum was filled

2750
02:47:45,760 --> 02:47:48,720
Speaker 15: by a fly by night company called Dream Pharma. The

2751
02:47:48,800 --> 02:47:52,120
Speaker 15: drug distributor. Quote turned out to be two desks at

2752
02:47:52,160 --> 02:47:54,760
Speaker 15: a filing cabinet hidden in the back of a London

2753
02:47:54,840 --> 02:47:55,600
Speaker 15: driving school.

2754
02:47:55,720 --> 02:47:57,560
Speaker 13: As Lane wrote, Once.

2755
02:47:57,360 --> 02:48:01,560
Speaker 15: This operation was exposed, Great Britain in sodium theopental sales

2756
02:48:01,680 --> 02:48:02,520
Speaker 15: to the United States.

2757
02:48:03,400 --> 02:48:07,560
Speaker 16: By December twenty eleven, the entire European Union had tighten

2758
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:11,040
Speaker 16: export controls on any chemicals that could potentially be used

2759
02:48:11,080 --> 02:48:15,680
Speaker 16: in executions. The new expanded EU ban made life much

2760
02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:19,160
Speaker 16: more difficult for would be executioners in the United States.

2761
02:48:19,640 --> 02:48:21,920
Speaker 16: In twenty twelve, when the state of Missouri announced it

2762
02:48:21,959 --> 02:48:26,040
Speaker 16: would use the drug pro poofoal as an anesthetic in

2763
02:48:26,080 --> 02:48:29,000
Speaker 16: its executions, the EU said it would cut off exports

2764
02:48:29,000 --> 02:48:31,640
Speaker 16: of that drug, which is used for surgeries in the

2765
02:48:31,720 --> 02:48:35,720
Speaker 16: United States about fifty million times a year. Combined, these

2766
02:48:35,760 --> 02:48:39,640
Speaker 16: moves created a lethal injection drug shortage that changed how

2767
02:48:39,760 --> 02:48:41,160
Speaker 16: executions took place.

2768
02:48:41,959 --> 02:48:45,800
Speaker 15: In twenty twelve, Texas moved then to a single drug protocol,

2769
02:48:46,440 --> 02:48:49,720
Speaker 15: using pennel barbitol alone rather than the old three drug

2770
02:48:49,760 --> 02:48:53,320
Speaker 15: cocktail made out of thin air by Oklahoma corner Stephen Coleman.

2771
02:48:53,440 --> 02:48:57,640
Speaker 15: Back in the nineteen seventies, autopsies revealed that prisoners executed

2772
02:48:57,640 --> 02:49:01,320
Speaker 15: with this single drug protocol die from pullman edema, a

2773
02:49:01,320 --> 02:49:04,520
Speaker 15: condition in which the lungs fill with fluid. Medical experts

2774
02:49:04,520 --> 02:49:07,320
Speaker 15: believe prisoners suffer intense chest pain as they suffocate, even

2775
02:49:07,360 --> 02:49:11,320
Speaker 15: if they appear fully unconscious. Execution witnesses also say they

2776
02:49:11,360 --> 02:49:14,400
Speaker 15: have seen prisoners eyes pop open, their eyes fill with tears,

2777
02:49:14,760 --> 02:49:17,360
Speaker 15: have seen them pull against restraints, and have heard them

2778
02:49:17,400 --> 02:49:20,000
Speaker 15: grown and class their jaws during such executions.

2779
02:49:20,920 --> 02:49:23,879
Speaker 16: As the drugs needed to carry out lethal injections become

2780
02:49:23,959 --> 02:49:27,640
Speaker 16: harder to find, states have to rely on shady tactics

2781
02:49:27,680 --> 02:49:30,800
Speaker 16: so they can keep on killing. Officials have lied to

2782
02:49:30,800 --> 02:49:34,680
Speaker 16: pharmaceutical companies that are buying drugs to provide medical care

2783
02:49:34,760 --> 02:49:37,280
Speaker 16: for prisoners that they later use in the death chamber.

2784
02:49:37,959 --> 02:49:41,520
Speaker 16: Death penalty. States have violated federal laws. They have illegally

2785
02:49:41,640 --> 02:49:45,400
Speaker 16: swapped these drugs across state line, or they bought them

2786
02:49:45,440 --> 02:49:48,360
Speaker 16: on the black market or to legally marginal so called

2787
02:49:48,400 --> 02:49:52,160
Speaker 16: gray market, Professor Lane describes as shading lengths the state

2788
02:49:52,200 --> 02:49:55,040
Speaker 16: of Ohio went to in order to buy these drugs.

2789
02:49:55,440 --> 02:49:59,960
Speaker 1: The state took fifteen thousand dollars in cash in a suitcase.

2790
02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:03,039
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't make this stuff up, you know,

2791
02:50:03,280 --> 02:50:07,200
Speaker 1: And chartered a private plane to fly over to Washington

2792
02:50:07,400 --> 02:50:11,760
Speaker 1: where they did an under the table deal for drugs

2793
02:50:12,120 --> 02:50:15,360
Speaker 1: with this little pharmacy. You know you need a prescription

2794
02:50:15,480 --> 02:50:17,720
Speaker 1: for these drugs, and so here's a pharmacy that, for

2795
02:50:17,800 --> 02:50:21,560
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars is willing to sell drugs under the

2796
02:50:21,640 --> 02:50:25,400
Speaker 1: table and allegedly in a Walmart parking lot.

2797
02:50:26,080 --> 02:50:28,840
Speaker 15: To cope with the shrinking supply, states have made illegal

2798
02:50:28,879 --> 02:50:32,760
Speaker 15: purchases overseas. Like other states, Texas has tried to circumvent

2799
02:50:32,800 --> 02:50:36,880
Speaker 15: tightening restrictions by purchasing death penalty supplies from loosely regulated

2800
02:50:36,879 --> 02:50:40,000
Speaker 15: compounding pharmacies, and some of them have been here in

2801
02:50:40,040 --> 02:50:42,920
Speaker 15: the States. In twenty eighteen, it was revealed that Texas

2802
02:50:42,920 --> 02:50:46,680
Speaker 15: repeatedly bought drugs from the Green Park Compounding Pharmacy in Houston,

2803
02:50:47,200 --> 02:50:49,440
Speaker 15: which is a company that had been fined forty eight

2804
02:50:49,480 --> 02:50:53,440
Speaker 15: times by federal regulators for safety violations, including providing the

2805
02:50:53,440 --> 02:50:58,400
Speaker 15: wrong medication to children who were subsequently hospitalized. The number

2806
02:50:58,440 --> 02:51:02,440
Speaker 15: of agonizingly prolonged executions in Texas suggest that the drugs

2807
02:51:02,440 --> 02:51:05,680
Speaker 15: the state buys are often out of date or impure.

2808
02:51:06,440 --> 02:51:09,000
Speaker 16: Finding out where the lethal drugs are coming from is

2809
02:51:09,040 --> 02:51:12,920
Speaker 16: becoming increasingly difficult. A number of states have passed laws

2810
02:51:12,959 --> 02:51:16,480
Speaker 16: may it illegal to report on who carries out the execution,

2811
02:51:17,040 --> 02:51:20,440
Speaker 16: what companies supply the drugs, or how these drugs were purchased.

2812
02:51:20,920 --> 02:51:24,320
Speaker 16: In any case, the difficulty in getting execution drugs has

2813
02:51:24,440 --> 02:51:26,920
Speaker 16: led to a decline the death penalty across the nation.

2814
02:51:27,879 --> 02:51:31,080
Speaker 16: At the time of the landmark nineteen seventy two Firman

2815
02:51:31,240 --> 02:51:35,160
Speaker 16: versus Georgia case that temporarily halted executions in the United States,

2816
02:51:35,640 --> 02:51:39,720
Speaker 16: forty states had the death penalty. Currently only twenty seven do.

2817
02:51:40,360 --> 02:51:44,800
Speaker 16: In twenty twenty four, four states alone, Alabama, Missouri, Oklahoma,

2818
02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:49,119
Speaker 16: and Texas carried out seventy six percent of the executions

2819
02:51:49,440 --> 02:51:51,400
Speaker 16: that unfolded in the United States.

2820
02:51:52,200 --> 02:51:54,200
Speaker 15: Some of the remaining states with the death penalty on

2821
02:51:54,240 --> 02:51:56,960
Speaker 15: the books have responded to the shortage of lethal drugs

2822
02:51:57,000 --> 02:52:00,400
Speaker 15: by authorizing the use of the firing squad and killing

2823
02:52:00,440 --> 02:52:04,600
Speaker 15: prisoners with nitrogen gas epoxia, which suffocates them by forcing

2824
02:52:04,640 --> 02:52:09,360
Speaker 15: them to breathe pure nitrogen. After another outbreak, you'll hear

2825
02:52:09,400 --> 02:52:13,080
Speaker 15: from a priest who has witnessed executions in ten different states,

2826
02:52:13,280 --> 02:52:16,560
Speaker 15: including death by nitrous epoxia, and will end this three

2827
02:52:16,560 --> 02:52:26,720
Speaker 15: part series by discussing the future of the death penalty.

2828
02:52:30,440 --> 02:52:34,280
Speaker 16: Born in the South Atlanta neighborhood in Georgia, Jeff Hood

2829
02:52:34,280 --> 02:52:37,560
Speaker 16: grew up in a religiously conservative home and was ordained

2830
02:52:37,560 --> 02:52:40,440
Speaker 16: as a Southern Baptist minister when he was only twenty two.

2831
02:52:41,640 --> 02:52:44,600
Speaker 16: His worldview, however, was shaken when he attended to his

2832
02:52:44,760 --> 02:52:48,120
Speaker 16: religious mentor, who was dying of lung cancer. Before he

2833
02:52:48,160 --> 02:52:50,520
Speaker 16: passed away, the seventy five year old confessed to the

2834
02:52:50,560 --> 02:52:55,120
Speaker 16: Hood quote, I'm gay and I've always been. Hood described

2835
02:52:55,160 --> 02:52:58,920
Speaker 16: this moment as earth shattering, and his religious views transformed

2836
02:52:59,000 --> 02:53:02,480
Speaker 16: dramatically from what he later called his backwards thinking.

2837
02:53:03,040 --> 02:53:05,160
Speaker 15: When Hood moved to Dallas in the early twenty tens,

2838
02:53:05,520 --> 02:53:07,920
Speaker 15: he became well known in his new home as he

2839
02:53:07,959 --> 02:53:11,119
Speaker 15: fought to make local churches more inclusive of the LGBTQ

2840
02:53:11,240 --> 02:53:14,080
Speaker 15: plus community, and he got arrested along with other clergy

2841
02:53:14,120 --> 02:53:16,720
Speaker 15: outside of the White House in twenty fourteen when he

2842
02:53:16,760 --> 02:53:20,279
Speaker 15: was protesting President Barack Obama's aggressive campaign to deport migrants.

2843
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:23,840
Speaker 15: On July seventh and twenty sixteen, Hood led a Black

2844
02:53:23,840 --> 02:53:27,400
Speaker 15: Lives Matter protest in downtown Dallas, during which a sniper

2845
02:53:27,720 --> 02:53:30,439
Speaker 15: opened fire and targeted police officers.

2846
02:53:30,800 --> 02:53:34,959
Speaker 16: Micah X. Johnson, an IRAQ war veteran, was enraged by

2847
02:53:35,000 --> 02:53:38,800
Speaker 16: the police killings of Alton Sterling in Louisiana and Filando

2848
02:53:38,879 --> 02:53:43,600
Speaker 16: Castile in Minnesota. So Johnson shot and killed five police officers,

2849
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:47,480
Speaker 16: the deadliest incident for law enforcement since September eleventh, two

2850
02:53:47,520 --> 02:53:51,200
Speaker 16: thousand and one. Police killed Johnson that evening by detonating

2851
02:53:51,240 --> 02:53:54,240
Speaker 16: a bomb carried by a robot to the shooter's hide

2852
02:53:54,240 --> 02:53:57,879
Speaker 16: out in a parking garage, marking the first execution by

2853
02:53:57,959 --> 02:54:02,920
Speaker 16: robot in American history. Reverend Hood was traumatized not only

2854
02:54:03,040 --> 02:54:06,520
Speaker 16: by the sniper attack, but also when he got scapegoaded

2855
02:54:06,600 --> 02:54:10,400
Speaker 16: for the deaths that day. Fox News hosts Megan Kelly

2856
02:54:10,400 --> 02:54:13,120
Speaker 16: put a target on Hood's back in the aftermath of

2857
02:54:13,160 --> 02:54:14,080
Speaker 16: the sniper attack.

2858
02:54:14,680 --> 02:54:17,240
Speaker 23: Jeff Hood, he was one of the organizers of the march,

2859
02:54:17,760 --> 02:54:19,880
Speaker 23: and quickly condemned the shootings.

2860
02:54:19,959 --> 02:54:23,680
Speaker 7: Today never and are while the streams would we have

2861
02:54:23,800 --> 02:54:27,800
Speaker 7: imagined that five police officers would be dead.

2862
02:54:27,879 --> 02:54:31,320
Speaker 23: It's form, But critics were quick to point out that

2863
02:54:31,400 --> 02:54:34,279
Speaker 23: we were hearing a very different message from the Reverend

2864
02:54:34,360 --> 02:54:37,720
Speaker 23: just a short time before the shots rang out last night.

2865
02:54:38,000 --> 02:54:39,879
Speaker 23: Here are some of that, But I'm a.

2866
02:54:40,000 --> 02:54:43,800
Speaker 7: Channel an old preacher that I am my tremendously.

2867
02:54:44,400 --> 02:54:52,080
Speaker 26: Jail am all right, and I'm gonna say, God damn

2868
02:54:52,640 --> 02:54:58,120
Speaker 26: White America, God.

2869
02:54:57,360 --> 02:54:59,960
Speaker 19: Damn white America.

2870
02:55:00,080 --> 02:55:01,160
Speaker 27: What about whom.

2871
02:55:08,959 --> 02:55:12,240
Speaker 26: Of the bodies a foot and brown people people being

2872
02:55:12,360 --> 02:55:13,400
Speaker 26: flooded in our.

2873
02:55:13,400 --> 02:55:16,840
Speaker 16: Free Hood agreed to be interviewed by Kelly, but the

2874
02:55:16,879 --> 02:55:20,440
Speaker 16: minister soon realized that Fox viewers blamed him for the

2875
02:55:20,480 --> 02:55:22,720
Speaker 16: officer's death, and they threatened vengeance.

2876
02:55:23,600 --> 02:55:26,040
Speaker 7: I mean, after Julaw the Seventh Man, there was talk

2877
02:55:26,080 --> 02:55:29,199
Speaker 7: about threats. Didn't PD was having to take the kids

2878
02:55:29,240 --> 02:55:32,240
Speaker 7: to school, and it was. It was absolutely.

2879
02:55:31,720 --> 02:55:36,279
Speaker 16: Horrible witnessing people die that day, including the sniper Johnson's

2880
02:55:36,480 --> 02:55:41,640
Speaker 16: impromptu execution via remote control robot, deep in Hood's opposition

2881
02:55:41,720 --> 02:55:45,080
Speaker 16: to violence, including state killing. In twenty twenty two, he

2882
02:55:45,160 --> 02:55:47,920
Speaker 16: is ordained again, this time as a priest and was

2883
02:55:47,920 --> 02:55:51,120
Speaker 16: called the Old Catholic Faith, which accepts many of the

2884
02:55:51,160 --> 02:55:54,480
Speaker 16: doctrines and rights of the Roman Catholic Church but rejects

2885
02:55:54,480 --> 02:55:58,640
Speaker 16: the doctrine of people infallibility and authority. Hood began writing

2886
02:55:58,640 --> 02:56:00,920
Speaker 16: to those on death Row and then hockey and praying

2887
02:56:00,959 --> 02:56:04,160
Speaker 16: with them in person. In twenty twenty two, the United

2888
02:56:04,200 --> 02:56:07,520
Speaker 16: States Supreme court ruled in the Ramirez versus Collier case

2889
02:56:07,879 --> 02:56:10,440
Speaker 16: that condemned prisoners have the right to die in the

2890
02:56:10,480 --> 02:56:14,360
Speaker 16: company of a spiritual advisor who became a companion to

2891
02:56:14,440 --> 02:56:16,240
Speaker 16: the condemned in their last minutes.

2892
02:56:16,879 --> 02:56:20,879
Speaker 7: I began to have people reaching out during that time,

2893
02:56:22,120 --> 02:56:25,440
Speaker 7: you know, and asking me if I would accompany them

2894
02:56:26,160 --> 02:56:29,640
Speaker 7: to the death chamber. And you know, it's one thing

2895
02:56:30,240 --> 02:56:36,640
Speaker 7: to be willing to have relationships with people who are executed.

2896
02:56:36,720 --> 02:56:41,160
Speaker 7: It's a whole nother thing to be asked to participate

2897
02:56:41,240 --> 02:56:46,160
Speaker 7: in the process. And so since then, I've witnessed been

2898
02:56:46,160 --> 02:56:50,240
Speaker 7: in the chamber with ten different guys. So from January

2899
02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:54,320
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty three to now, I've watched ten different

2900
02:56:54,360 --> 02:56:56,040
Speaker 7: men be executed by the state.

2901
02:56:56,680 --> 02:56:59,680
Speaker 15: Who attended his first execution when the State of Oklahoma

2902
02:56:59,720 --> 02:57:03,640
Speaker 15: puts Scott Eisenberg to death on January twelfth, twenty twenty three.

2903
02:57:04,040 --> 02:57:07,840
Speaker 15: Twenty years earlier, Eisenberg murdered an elderly couple, including a

2904
02:57:07,840 --> 02:57:08,960
Speaker 15: man he bludgeoned to death.

2905
02:57:09,520 --> 02:57:13,640
Speaker 7: My first execution was Scott Eisenberg in Oklahoma, and he

2906
02:57:14,959 --> 02:57:19,039
Speaker 7: Scott had a number of things going on, but we

2907
02:57:19,040 --> 02:57:23,240
Speaker 7: were very close. He had a lot of anger issues

2908
02:57:23,320 --> 02:57:26,959
Speaker 7: and I think difficulty controlling his temper and whatnot. And

2909
02:57:27,600 --> 02:57:29,680
Speaker 7: you know, so the reality was I was very frightened

2910
02:57:30,440 --> 02:57:33,000
Speaker 7: before I went in because I thought Scott was just

2911
02:57:33,080 --> 02:57:38,760
Speaker 7: going to go ballistic. And you know, to be in

2912
02:57:38,800 --> 02:57:42,920
Speaker 7: that room with someone that goes ballistic, I mean, it's

2913
02:57:43,320 --> 02:57:48,959
Speaker 7: it's already traumatic enough. I'm sure you can imagine without

2914
02:57:49,040 --> 02:57:51,120
Speaker 7: you know, something like that, But then again, you couldn't.

2915
02:57:51,400 --> 02:57:54,240
Speaker 7: You can't blame them for wanting to, you know, push

2916
02:57:54,320 --> 02:57:57,080
Speaker 7: back and fight for their lives and whatnot. I found

2917
02:57:57,120 --> 02:58:04,400
Speaker 7: myself shaking, just you know, my hands and my legs,

2918
02:58:05,520 --> 02:58:10,400
Speaker 7: this terror, I mean, just utterly terrified. And then they

2919
02:58:10,440 --> 02:58:14,480
Speaker 7: opened the door and I was led in and I

2920
02:58:14,520 --> 02:58:22,440
Speaker 7: saw Scott. And it's incredibly strange to see someone hooked

2921
02:58:22,480 --> 02:58:28,520
Speaker 7: up to machines that look like they're there to support life,

2922
02:58:28,680 --> 02:58:35,720
Speaker 7: and yet you know that they're there to take his life.

2923
02:58:35,959 --> 02:58:39,160
Speaker 7: And so I wasn't able. I mean, I knew that

2924
02:58:39,240 --> 02:58:42,680
Speaker 7: there was a window on one side, I wasn't able

2925
02:58:42,720 --> 02:58:45,320
Speaker 7: to see through that window because there was a curtain down.

2926
02:58:46,240 --> 02:58:50,040
Speaker 7: And I began to pray with Scott. Scott had asked

2927
02:58:50,080 --> 02:58:54,400
Speaker 7: me to read a number of scriptures and I did,

2928
02:58:55,720 --> 02:58:59,240
Speaker 7: and I dropped my Bible at one point because I'm

2929
02:58:59,280 --> 02:59:02,480
Speaker 7: shaking so bad I was having trouble holding it. You know.

2930
02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:08,640
Speaker 7: He notices that I'm shaking, He notices that I'm upset,

2931
02:59:09,600 --> 02:59:12,760
Speaker 7: and he looks at me and tells me everything's gonna

2932
02:59:12,800 --> 02:59:16,560
Speaker 7: be okay. And I'm thinking to myself, no, it's not.

2933
02:59:17,360 --> 02:59:18,560
Speaker 22: Like, no, it is not.

2934
02:59:19,280 --> 02:59:25,200
Speaker 7: And I'm thinking, you know, you're gonna die, and I'm

2935
02:59:25,200 --> 02:59:27,560
Speaker 7: going to be scarred for life. Everything is not going

2936
02:59:27,600 --> 02:59:34,520
Speaker 7: to be okay. And I went to the scripture in

2937
02:59:35,280 --> 02:59:41,040
Speaker 7: John chapter eight where Jesus encounters the adulterous woman, and

2938
02:59:41,080 --> 02:59:45,760
Speaker 7: there's that famous line, famous verse, you who are without sin,

2939
02:59:45,920 --> 02:59:50,760
Speaker 7: cast the first stone, and I read that in the chamber,

2940
02:59:52,200 --> 02:59:56,360
Speaker 7: and one of the lighter moments when we were in

2941
02:59:56,440 --> 02:59:58,520
Speaker 7: there was when I read that you who are without

2942
02:59:58,560 --> 03:00:02,880
Speaker 7: sin cast the first tone. I remember Scott looking up

2943
03:00:02,920 --> 03:00:05,760
Speaker 7: and pointing at the executioners and saying, you know, he's

2944
03:00:05,800 --> 03:00:08,000
Speaker 7: talking to y'all, like this is about y'all.

2945
03:00:09,000 --> 03:00:11,760
Speaker 15: Pud said that any sense that death by lethal injection

2946
03:00:11,879 --> 03:00:14,200
Speaker 15: is nonviolent is an illusion.

2947
03:00:15,280 --> 03:00:21,240
Speaker 7: In every lethal injection, I have immediately heard snoring, and

2948
03:00:21,320 --> 03:00:26,120
Speaker 7: what sounds not like you know, snoring from you know

2949
03:00:26,160 --> 03:00:29,440
Speaker 7: that one would have when they sleep or whatever, but

2950
03:00:29,480 --> 03:00:34,600
Speaker 7: more of a gurgling kind of a snoring, and you

2951
03:00:34,640 --> 03:00:39,560
Speaker 7: know it's the body responds in a very panicked fashion,

2952
03:00:40,200 --> 03:00:44,840
Speaker 7: and so it's almost like it's like drowning someone who's

2953
03:00:44,879 --> 03:00:49,760
Speaker 7: completely paralyzed. And I think that that's I think that's

2954
03:00:49,760 --> 03:00:53,320
Speaker 7: what it's been like every time. I think that there

2955
03:00:53,440 --> 03:00:58,760
Speaker 7: is a level of suffering that is that is hidden,

2956
03:00:59,520 --> 03:01:01,880
Speaker 7: there's a he is in that again that it's made

2957
03:01:01,879 --> 03:01:03,840
Speaker 7: to look like a medical procedure, because it does look

2958
03:01:03,879 --> 03:01:06,480
Speaker 7: like a medical procedure. I think it is a con.

2959
03:01:07,520 --> 03:01:11,039
Speaker 16: W Hood found the lethal injections traumatizing, but that did

2960
03:01:11,040 --> 03:01:13,560
Speaker 16: not prepare for him for what he witnessed when Alabama

2961
03:01:13,640 --> 03:01:17,360
Speaker 16: began executing prisoners through nitrous hypoxia.

2962
03:01:18,040 --> 03:01:21,520
Speaker 7: I can tell you that as horrible as a lethal

2963
03:01:21,560 --> 03:01:24,520
Speaker 7: injection is, and yes, it is a con job, I

2964
03:01:24,879 --> 03:01:28,080
Speaker 7: can tell you that I what I saw during that

2965
03:01:28,240 --> 03:01:33,120
Speaker 7: nitrogen execution is indescribable. I can tell you that I

2966
03:01:33,120 --> 03:01:36,000
Speaker 7: think I would rather be burned to death than be

2967
03:01:36,120 --> 03:01:38,879
Speaker 7: executed by nitrogen. I mean it is that bad.

2968
03:01:39,520 --> 03:01:44,680
Speaker 16: Wod attended the hypoxia suffocation of Kenneth Smith, a contract killer,

2969
03:01:45,120 --> 03:01:48,080
Speaker 16: on January twenty fifth, twenty twenty four, the first such

2970
03:01:48,160 --> 03:01:52,040
Speaker 16: execution in American history. Smith had been sentence to death

2971
03:01:52,120 --> 03:01:55,800
Speaker 16: thirty six years earlier. That said, the horrors for him began.

2972
03:01:56,000 --> 03:01:59,440
Speaker 16: We stepped into the death chamber and saw Smith outfitted

2973
03:01:59,480 --> 03:02:02,400
Speaker 16: with a large masks that would deliver the poison gas.

2974
03:02:02,959 --> 03:02:06,760
Speaker 16: Attending this execution actually put Hood's life in jeopardy.

2975
03:02:07,360 --> 03:02:10,720
Speaker 7: I can describe it for y'alls listeners. But the mask

2976
03:02:11,680 --> 03:02:16,880
Speaker 7: which I'm holding right here a replica, is basically something

2977
03:02:17,000 --> 03:02:20,600
Speaker 7: that is gas netting in the back and has silicone straps.

2978
03:02:20,800 --> 03:02:25,800
Speaker 7: It's put over the back of someone's head and it

2979
03:02:25,879 --> 03:02:28,840
Speaker 7: is strapped as tight as possible to try to keep

2980
03:02:28,920 --> 03:02:33,280
Speaker 7: it on. And it looks like a firefighter's mask with

2981
03:02:33,400 --> 03:02:37,320
Speaker 7: sort of a plexiglass plate on the front. And then

2982
03:02:37,360 --> 03:02:41,560
Speaker 7: there's a hose that's going from the firefighter's mask with

2983
03:02:41,600 --> 03:02:47,520
Speaker 7: the plexiglass plate to the nitrogen. And so what is

2984
03:02:47,879 --> 03:02:51,800
Speaker 7: happening is they try to pump as much nitrogen as

2985
03:02:51,840 --> 03:02:57,840
Speaker 7: possible through through this line. The problem is is that

2986
03:02:59,200 --> 03:03:03,080
Speaker 7: these masks don't completely hold the form. I guess it's

2987
03:03:03,120 --> 03:03:06,160
Speaker 7: the best way of saying it in that it's difficult

2988
03:03:06,800 --> 03:03:11,040
Speaker 7: for you to get an air tight seal. So the

2989
03:03:11,040 --> 03:03:15,600
Speaker 7: more oxygen that gets in here, the more it's displacing nitrogen.

2990
03:03:16,240 --> 03:03:19,199
Speaker 7: And so the more oxygen that's in here, and obviously

2991
03:03:19,200 --> 03:03:21,920
Speaker 7: there's gonna be oxygen too, there's gonna be oxygen in

2992
03:03:21,920 --> 03:03:26,199
Speaker 7: the mass before the thing even starts, is going to

2993
03:03:26,240 --> 03:03:29,440
Speaker 7: create more suffering. It's going to create a longer process.

2994
03:03:30,560 --> 03:03:32,560
Speaker 15: Good knew that he would be in a chamber in

2995
03:03:32,560 --> 03:03:35,120
Speaker 15: which poison gas would be released, and he felt obligated

2996
03:03:35,120 --> 03:03:37,760
Speaker 15: to tell his children in advance that he could be harmed.

2997
03:03:38,360 --> 03:03:40,960
Speaker 15: They were terrified, of course, but he felt an obligation

2998
03:03:41,040 --> 03:03:44,680
Speaker 15: to provide smith company and compassion as well. Again, we

2999
03:03:44,760 --> 03:03:47,320
Speaker 15: remind listeners that what they are about to hear might

3000
03:03:47,400 --> 03:03:48,320
Speaker 15: be upsetting.

3001
03:03:48,879 --> 03:03:50,800
Speaker 7: So by the time we get to the point where

3002
03:03:50,800 --> 03:03:54,320
Speaker 7: they turn the nitrogen on, all the witnesses, everybody in

3003
03:03:54,360 --> 03:03:57,840
Speaker 7: the room is like going Nobody knows what's about to

3004
03:03:57,840 --> 03:04:02,240
Speaker 7: happen because it's never been tried before. And so they

3005
03:04:02,280 --> 03:04:08,199
Speaker 7: turn it on and Kenny immediately begins to heave back

3006
03:04:08,280 --> 03:04:11,600
Speaker 7: and forth and back and forth, over and over. And

3007
03:04:11,760 --> 03:04:14,920
Speaker 7: every time he heaves forward, the back of the mask

3008
03:04:15,120 --> 03:04:18,240
Speaker 7: was strapped to the gurney, so every time he heaves forward,

3009
03:04:18,280 --> 03:04:21,760
Speaker 7: his face is hitting the front of that mask over

3010
03:04:21,879 --> 03:04:25,280
Speaker 7: and over and over and over, and so it's like

3011
03:04:25,560 --> 03:04:30,080
Speaker 7: watching someone get like hit their face against the playglass window,

3012
03:04:30,600 --> 03:04:33,560
Speaker 7: and it's like his nose and his face is flattening

3013
03:04:33,600 --> 03:04:37,560
Speaker 7: every time he does it. And he begins to shake

3014
03:04:37,720 --> 03:04:41,720
Speaker 7: back and forth and back and forth, heaving up and down.

3015
03:04:42,000 --> 03:04:47,360
Speaker 7: I see spit and saliva and snod and you know,

3016
03:04:47,520 --> 03:04:51,520
Speaker 7: eyewater and all sorts of fluid is coming out of

3017
03:04:52,360 --> 03:04:56,160
Speaker 7: his face, and that fluid begins to build up on

3018
03:04:56,200 --> 03:04:59,320
Speaker 7: the front of the mask and it begins to drizzle

3019
03:04:59,720 --> 03:05:00,520
Speaker 7: like a waterfall.

3020
03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:05,120
Speaker 16: Smith's convulse was so much force, prison officials worried his

3021
03:05:05,280 --> 03:05:09,320
Speaker 16: mask might come off, interrupting the execution and possibly killing

3022
03:05:09,320 --> 03:05:13,480
Speaker 16: Hood and maybe others and attendance. A window separated Hood

3023
03:05:13,480 --> 03:05:17,199
Speaker 16: from other witnesses in the violence of Smith's death caused

3024
03:05:17,200 --> 03:05:17,720
Speaker 16: the commotion.

3025
03:05:18,760 --> 03:05:22,160
Speaker 7: The windows are like super thick. I shouldn't have been

3026
03:05:22,160 --> 03:05:24,760
Speaker 7: able to hear anything, but I could hear somebody behind

3027
03:05:24,800 --> 03:05:29,000
Speaker 7: me screaming stop stop stop, stop, please stop stop stop.

3028
03:05:30,120 --> 03:05:34,360
Speaker 7: And it was it was an absolute nightmare. And Kenny

3029
03:05:34,400 --> 03:05:38,680
Speaker 7: did not die for at least twenty two minutes. And

3030
03:05:38,720 --> 03:05:42,880
Speaker 7: it's very possible that he didn't die for a longer

3031
03:05:42,879 --> 03:05:48,039
Speaker 7: period of time, but the state of Alabama declares they say, oh,

3032
03:05:48,200 --> 03:05:50,720
Speaker 7: you know, he's not breathing, he's dead. Then they'd push

3033
03:05:50,760 --> 03:05:52,440
Speaker 7: everybody out of the room, and then they bring the

3034
03:05:52,520 --> 03:05:56,320
Speaker 7: doctor in after everybody's left, to declare him dead.

3035
03:05:57,360 --> 03:05:59,960
Speaker 15: Who admits that some of the men he's counseled are

3036
03:06:00,080 --> 03:06:04,520
Speaker 15: capable of unspeakable evil, even after years on death row,

3037
03:06:04,720 --> 03:06:08,040
Speaker 15: but he still recalls each death he's witnessed with pain.

3038
03:06:08,800 --> 03:06:15,440
Speaker 28: I feel morally compromised, horrified, but I feel cold or

3039
03:06:15,840 --> 03:06:20,640
Speaker 28: pushed to keep going because I think that the more traumatic.

3040
03:06:20,200 --> 03:06:23,760
Speaker 7: Thing would be to leave these guys alone. Now, in

3041
03:06:23,840 --> 03:06:28,280
Speaker 7: terms of actually seeing it, I think that it's these

3042
03:06:28,320 --> 03:06:34,240
Speaker 7: images don't leave you. There's nightmares. I always say that

3043
03:06:34,280 --> 03:06:39,320
Speaker 7: these guys haunt me. They come night after night. You know,

3044
03:06:39,360 --> 03:06:41,080
Speaker 7: I'll see them at the end of my bed. I mean,

3045
03:06:41,160 --> 03:06:44,880
Speaker 7: I mean, just yeah. So, so trauma is something I've

3046
03:06:45,400 --> 03:06:46,560
Speaker 7: come to know very well.

3047
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:51,520
Speaker 16: In twenty nineteen, the United States Supreme Court ruled the

3048
03:06:51,600 --> 03:06:54,280
Speaker 16: prisoners do not have a right to a painless death

3049
03:06:54,800 --> 03:06:58,400
Speaker 16: when a green lighted the execution of Russell Buckloo, who

3050
03:06:58,480 --> 03:07:01,760
Speaker 16: had blood filled tumor and his head, neck and mouth

3051
03:07:02,120 --> 03:07:03,920
Speaker 16: that could have broken up and as he was put

3052
03:07:03,959 --> 03:07:07,080
Speaker 16: to death. The highest court seems to have rendered the

3053
03:07:07,080 --> 03:07:11,000
Speaker 16: Eighth Amendments ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment mood.

3054
03:07:11,920 --> 03:07:15,040
Speaker 15: Meanwhile, in recent years, it has not only been states

3055
03:07:15,040 --> 03:07:18,200
Speaker 15: that have enforced the death penalty. Between nineteen sixty and

3056
03:07:18,320 --> 03:07:22,880
Speaker 15: twenty nineteen, the federal government carried out only three executions,

3057
03:07:22,920 --> 03:07:26,120
Speaker 15: but in twenty twenty to early twenty twenty one, during

3058
03:07:26,120 --> 03:07:28,560
Speaker 15: the last six months of Donald Trump's first term as president,

3059
03:07:28,959 --> 03:07:30,880
Speaker 15: the federal government executed.

3060
03:07:30,400 --> 03:07:31,880
Speaker 13: Thirteen men and women.

3061
03:07:32,480 --> 03:07:35,920
Speaker 15: These included Brandon Bernard, who committed a double murder when

3062
03:07:35,959 --> 03:07:39,960
Speaker 15: he was only eighteen, and another Lisa Montgomery, whose psychologists

3063
03:07:39,959 --> 03:07:43,160
Speaker 15: believed was severely mentally ill and detached from reality at

3064
03:07:43,160 --> 03:07:45,280
Speaker 15: the time that she murdered a pregnant woman and cut

3065
03:07:45,320 --> 03:07:47,840
Speaker 15: the baby from her victim's body in order to raise

3066
03:07:47,879 --> 03:07:48,879
Speaker 15: the child as her own.

3067
03:07:49,879 --> 03:07:52,240
Speaker 16: Joe Biden, on the other hand, at the end of

3068
03:07:52,280 --> 03:07:56,760
Speaker 16: his presidential term, sought to prevent a similar execution spree.

3069
03:07:56,879 --> 03:07:59,360
Speaker 16: Forty people are on death row, and he commuted the

3070
03:07:59,400 --> 03:08:03,080
Speaker 16: sense of thirty seven of them. The remaining three were

3071
03:08:03,320 --> 03:08:09,000
Speaker 16: Zokhar Zarnev. The twenty thirteen Boston Marathon bomber Dylan Rufe,

3072
03:08:09,040 --> 03:08:12,360
Speaker 16: who massacred nine members of the Mother Emmanuel Ame Church

3073
03:08:12,720 --> 03:08:17,200
Speaker 16: in Charleston, South Carolina, twenty fifteen, and Robert Bowers, who

3074
03:08:17,320 --> 03:08:20,240
Speaker 16: killed eleven at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh.

3075
03:08:21,320 --> 03:08:24,080
Speaker 16: Back in power, however, Trump is vowed to make the

3076
03:08:24,120 --> 03:08:25,440
Speaker 16: death penalty great again.

3077
03:08:26,200 --> 03:08:32,359
Speaker 29: Anybody murders something in the capitol, capital punishment, capital capital punishment.

3078
03:08:33,640 --> 03:08:39,600
Speaker 29: If somebody kills somebody in the capitol Washington, DC, We're

3079
03:08:39,640 --> 03:08:41,440
Speaker 29: going to be seeking the death penalty.

3080
03:08:43,320 --> 03:08:46,440
Speaker 27: And that's a very strong preventative.

3081
03:08:47,560 --> 03:08:50,960
Speaker 15: Trump's immediate plans aside, the future of the death penalty

3082
03:08:51,000 --> 03:08:53,560
Speaker 15: in the long term is not so certain. According to

3083
03:08:53,600 --> 03:08:56,360
Speaker 15: a twenty twenty four Gallup opinion poll, support for the

3084
03:08:56,360 --> 03:08:59,120
Speaker 15: death penalty has sunk to its lowest level in half

3085
03:08:59,160 --> 03:09:03,240
Speaker 15: a century. Only fifty three percent of Americans favor capital punishment,

3086
03:09:03,400 --> 03:09:06,800
Speaker 15: but that number skews heavily towards older Americans. More than

3087
03:09:06,800 --> 03:09:09,520
Speaker 15: half of Americans between the ages of eighteen and forty

3088
03:09:09,520 --> 03:09:13,000
Speaker 15: three oppose the death penalty, and almost sixty percent of

3089
03:09:13,040 --> 03:09:16,520
Speaker 15: the so called gen z those born between nineteen ninety

3090
03:09:16,520 --> 03:09:20,080
Speaker 15: seven and twenty twelve are firmly against the death penalty,

3091
03:09:20,760 --> 03:09:24,360
Speaker 15: while Professor Karna Lane believes that even record low support

3092
03:09:24,360 --> 03:09:26,720
Speaker 15: for the death penalty is exaggerated and that support for

3093
03:09:26,760 --> 03:09:30,360
Speaker 15: capital punishment drops even further when other options are provided

3094
03:09:30,400 --> 03:09:31,120
Speaker 15: to voters.

3095
03:09:31,680 --> 03:09:35,200
Speaker 1: You know, the President issued this executive order, a day

3096
03:09:35,320 --> 03:09:38,320
Speaker 1: one executive order. Let's go for the death penalty anytime

3097
03:09:38,320 --> 03:09:41,760
Speaker 1: we can. Let's execute everybody. And one of the things

3098
03:09:41,800 --> 03:09:46,000
Speaker 1: to realize is that the death penalty is dying in

3099
03:09:46,080 --> 03:09:52,600
Speaker 1: this country for reasons that an executive order cannot fix.

3100
03:09:53,360 --> 03:09:56,320
Speaker 1: People have less confidence than the death penalty. They don't

3101
03:09:56,400 --> 03:10:01,200
Speaker 1: trust the death penalty, nor should they. Two people have

3102
03:10:01,320 --> 03:10:03,080
Speaker 1: been exonerated from.

3103
03:10:03,040 --> 03:10:06,440
Speaker 16: Death row and Race Bouyon agrees.

3104
03:10:06,600 --> 03:10:11,440
Speaker 12: The decline in executions in the United States reflects a

3105
03:10:11,560 --> 03:10:16,200
Speaker 12: broad US shift in how society views get penalty. I mean,

3106
03:10:16,600 --> 03:10:21,800
Speaker 12: more states are repealing it, juries are imposing it less often,

3107
03:10:22,560 --> 03:10:27,879
Speaker 12: and the public support while student inviting has steadily decreased,

3108
03:10:28,400 --> 03:10:34,480
Speaker 12: especially as concerns about wrongful convictions in the racial bias

3109
03:10:35,160 --> 03:10:39,039
Speaker 12: and the high costs of capital punishment came to light.

3110
03:10:40,320 --> 03:10:43,760
Speaker 16: At the beginning of the nineteenth century, hangings were public,

3111
03:10:44,160 --> 03:10:47,120
Speaker 16: but they so often went awry and produced such grizzly

3112
03:10:47,200 --> 03:10:51,160
Speaker 16: scen States smooth as executions inside prison yards and some

3113
03:10:51,440 --> 03:10:56,080
Speaker 16: more humane alternative. That new method, the electric chair, proved

3114
03:10:56,080 --> 03:10:59,920
Speaker 16: horrifying as well, and was deemed unsuitable for general audiences.

3115
03:11:00,920 --> 03:11:03,320
Speaker 16: The Supreme Court imposed a four year pause in the

3116
03:11:03,320 --> 03:11:06,280
Speaker 16: death penalty beginning in nineteen seventy two because of its

3117
03:11:06,360 --> 03:11:11,359
Speaker 16: random application. In nineteen seventy six, the High Court reauthorized

3118
03:11:11,360 --> 03:11:15,760
Speaker 16: capital punishment. A crisis ensued when a Texas TV reporters

3119
03:11:15,840 --> 03:11:19,720
Speaker 16: sued for the right to televise executions. Horrified at the

3120
03:11:19,760 --> 03:11:23,119
Speaker 16: prospectively condemned, essentially being burned alive in the electric chair

3121
03:11:23,160 --> 03:11:26,440
Speaker 16: in front of a primetime audience. States approved the latest

3122
03:11:26,440 --> 03:11:30,840
Speaker 16: innovation stake killing death by lethal injection, But throughout this

3123
03:11:31,120 --> 03:11:36,160
Speaker 16: history of execution, insurmountable flaws have remained consistent. The quest

3124
03:11:36,360 --> 03:11:38,640
Speaker 16: for a human way to kill people on an announced

3125
03:11:38,680 --> 03:11:41,879
Speaker 16: schedule has been futile. Each form of the death penalty

3126
03:11:41,920 --> 03:11:44,400
Speaker 16: has been proven to be violent and cost suffering at

3127
03:11:44,440 --> 03:11:48,480
Speaker 16: great expenditure of public money, and plausibly innocent people have

3128
03:11:48,600 --> 03:11:51,640
Speaker 16: been put to death. As the people in charge of

3129
03:11:51,640 --> 03:11:55,000
Speaker 16: punishment have changed execution methods over the years, they've also

3130
03:11:55,040 --> 03:11:58,280
Speaker 16: tried to prevent public backlash to revolting scenes of suffering,

3131
03:11:58,560 --> 03:12:02,080
Speaker 16: which could create the opposite the capital punishment that they fear.

3132
03:12:02,959 --> 03:12:04,920
Speaker 16: Politicians eager to prove they are tough on crime, have

3133
03:12:04,959 --> 03:12:09,080
Speaker 16: also fought to hide these gruesome spectacles from public view. Nevertheless,

3134
03:12:09,360 --> 03:12:12,160
Speaker 16: Race Bouyon is optimistic that this grim aspect of life

3135
03:12:12,320 --> 03:12:14,760
Speaker 16: in the United States might soon come to an end.

3136
03:12:15,400 --> 03:12:17,920
Speaker 12: More than two thirds of you know countries have about

3137
03:12:17,920 --> 03:12:23,440
Speaker 12: this death penalty in law or practice, with only a

3138
03:12:23,480 --> 03:12:27,920
Speaker 12: few countries carrying out the vast majority of executions. And

3139
03:12:28,040 --> 03:12:31,720
Speaker 12: I think the future is one where the death penalty

3140
03:12:31,959 --> 03:12:38,800
Speaker 12: continues to strain one life as the values of human rights, dignity,

3141
03:12:38,920 --> 03:12:43,840
Speaker 12: and justice without irreversible punishment again ground.

3142
03:12:45,360 --> 03:12:47,800
Speaker 16: Until next time. I'm Michael Phillips and.

3143
03:12:47,760 --> 03:12:50,119
Speaker 13: I'm Stephen Montchelli. Thanks for listening.

3144
03:13:04,320 --> 03:13:07,320
Speaker 2: Am I introducing the podcast. Welcome to the podcast.

3145
03:13:07,840 --> 03:13:11,200
Speaker 3: This is It Could Happen Here Executive Disorder, our weekly

3146
03:13:11,280 --> 03:13:13,960
Speaker 3: news cast covering what's happening in the White House, the

3147
03:13:14,000 --> 03:13:15,240
Speaker 3: crumbling world what it means for you.

3148
03:13:15,320 --> 03:13:16,320
Speaker 4: I'm Garrison Davis.

3149
03:13:16,320 --> 03:13:19,400
Speaker 3: Today I'm joined by Mio Wong, James Stout, and Robert Evans.

3150
03:13:19,840 --> 03:13:23,640
Speaker 3: This episode recovering the week of October thirty. First to

3151
03:13:23,800 --> 03:13:27,599
Speaker 3: November fifth, one of the most exciting weeks in politics.

3152
03:13:27,760 --> 03:13:29,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, because it's one finite.

3153
03:13:29,160 --> 03:13:33,200
Speaker 3: If you remember the poem, that's right, and that's not

3154
03:13:33,280 --> 03:13:35,640
Speaker 3: the only exciting thing to happen, but also not the

3155
03:13:35,640 --> 03:13:38,720
Speaker 3: only sad thing to happen this week, because as exciting

3156
03:13:38,760 --> 03:13:42,000
Speaker 3: as election Day was for people in New York, there

3157
03:13:42,080 --> 03:13:45,160
Speaker 3: was like a looming sadness throughout the day because earlier

3158
03:13:45,160 --> 03:13:50,480
Speaker 3: that morning, obviously, Vice President Dick Cheney passed away, and

3159
03:13:51,800 --> 03:13:56,600
Speaker 3: that was rough for many people, not rough for many others,

3160
03:13:57,280 --> 03:14:00,360
Speaker 3: but that certainly was a looming presence over the day.

3161
03:14:00,400 --> 03:14:03,640
Speaker 3: Does anyone have any words to say on the passing

3162
03:14:03,800 --> 03:14:05,959
Speaker 3: of mister Cheney.

3163
03:14:06,320 --> 03:14:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I just want to let everyone in

3164
03:14:08,400 --> 03:14:11,000
Speaker 2: hell know this too shall pass. You know you won't

3165
03:14:11,040 --> 03:14:13,400
Speaker 2: be stuck with him forever. Just try to grin and

3166
03:14:13,440 --> 03:14:14,879
Speaker 2: bear it. I know it's going to be hard for

3167
03:14:14,920 --> 03:14:18,720
Speaker 2: a lot of you, especially Saddam Hussein, but I know

3168
03:14:18,800 --> 03:14:21,440
Speaker 2: you can get past this. You know, he will get

3169
03:14:21,480 --> 03:14:26,680
Speaker 2: reincarnated as a Senate Republican staffer within the next six

3170
03:14:26,720 --> 03:14:29,119
Speaker 2: to eight months, so so you won't have to put

3171
03:14:29,200 --> 03:14:29,760
Speaker 2: up with him long.

3172
03:14:30,720 --> 03:14:33,200
Speaker 6: I guess this is also just your reminder that it's

3173
03:14:33,240 --> 03:14:35,920
Speaker 6: going to do to practice see full essential rooms of

3174
03:14:36,000 --> 03:14:38,119
Speaker 6: firearms safety at old times.

3175
03:14:38,640 --> 03:14:42,480
Speaker 2: Don't shoot with Dick Cheney if you see Dick Cheney

3176
03:14:42,520 --> 03:14:43,800
Speaker 2: while you're hunting quail.

3177
03:14:44,240 --> 03:14:44,400
Speaker 17: Right.

3178
03:14:44,480 --> 03:14:46,360
Speaker 4: Do the kids even know about this now?

3179
03:14:47,720 --> 03:14:47,879
Speaker 18: Oh?

3180
03:14:48,040 --> 03:14:49,520
Speaker 4: The kids know? The kids?

3181
03:14:49,560 --> 03:14:49,600
Speaker 1: No?

3182
03:14:50,280 --> 03:14:50,800
Speaker 6: Yeah?

3183
03:14:51,080 --> 03:14:53,680
Speaker 4: Ok, yeah, yeah, this is.

3184
03:14:55,400 --> 03:14:59,920
Speaker 3: Cheney law has permeated throughout generations of American call.

3185
03:15:00,360 --> 03:15:00,920
Speaker 13: Yeah.

3186
03:15:00,959 --> 03:15:02,800
Speaker 10: When I was a kid, there was like a whole

3187
03:15:02,800 --> 03:15:04,920
Speaker 10: thing where we all fought the song Jamie's Got a

3188
03:15:04,959 --> 03:15:06,240
Speaker 10: Gun was Cheney's got a.

3189
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:11,360
Speaker 6: Gun in front of except because it just lined up

3190
03:15:11,360 --> 03:15:12,960
Speaker 6: with everything you knew about the world.

3191
03:15:13,240 --> 03:15:16,680
Speaker 2: What's funny about it is that my actual thinking on

3192
03:15:17,320 --> 03:15:20,560
Speaker 2: that shooting hasn't changed since I was a Republican kid.

3193
03:15:20,800 --> 03:15:23,199
Speaker 2: Like when I was a young right winger, I thought, Wow,

3194
03:15:23,240 --> 03:15:25,600
Speaker 2: Dick Cheney's so cool. He shot a man and got

3195
03:15:25,640 --> 03:15:28,480
Speaker 2: him to apologize to him, And now, as an adult

3196
03:15:28,520 --> 03:15:30,640
Speaker 2: on the left, I still think that's kind of the

3197
03:15:30,640 --> 03:15:31,480
Speaker 2: coolest thing Dick.

3198
03:15:31,400 --> 03:15:32,200
Speaker 27: Cheney ever did.

3199
03:15:33,000 --> 03:15:39,280
Speaker 6: Like it is a head of a feat.

3200
03:15:38,400 --> 03:15:41,520
Speaker 2: That man apologized for getting in front of his sights.

3201
03:15:42,240 --> 03:15:43,160
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

3202
03:15:45,440 --> 03:15:46,520
Speaker 4: Now it is.

3203
03:15:46,600 --> 03:15:49,959
Speaker 3: It is unfortunate that Dick Cheney did not live to

3204
03:15:50,040 --> 03:15:54,680
Speaker 3: see the election of Zormumdani as the mayor of New

3205
03:15:54,760 --> 03:15:55,720
Speaker 3: York City.

3206
03:15:55,440 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 4: Which happened. That would have been funny on Tuesday.

3207
03:15:58,240 --> 03:16:02,560
Speaker 3: Later that day, Zoran has become the first candidate in

3208
03:16:02,760 --> 03:16:05,400
Speaker 3: New York mayoral history to win over a million votes

3209
03:16:05,520 --> 03:16:11,000
Speaker 3: since nineteen sixty nine. Nice This election itself saw over

3210
03:16:11,080 --> 03:16:14,080
Speaker 3: two million votes. This is a million more votes in

3211
03:16:14,160 --> 03:16:16,000
Speaker 3: the last in New York mayoral election.

3212
03:16:16,800 --> 03:16:18,200
Speaker 4: Huge turnout.

3213
03:16:19,440 --> 03:16:24,560
Speaker 3: Currently, as of Wednesday afternoon, Zoran has fifty point four

3214
03:16:24,600 --> 03:16:30,160
Speaker 3: percent of the vote. Former governor and sexual assault enthusiast

3215
03:16:30,200 --> 03:16:34,320
Speaker 3: Andrew Cuomo, running as an independent, has forty one point

3216
03:16:34,360 --> 03:16:39,840
Speaker 3: six percent, and the bray wearing Curtisilwa as seven point one.

3217
03:16:40,680 --> 03:16:43,400
Speaker 3: Not a spoiler candidate in many ways, nor would it

3218
03:16:43,400 --> 03:16:47,199
Speaker 3: be correct to say that all of Silver's votes would

3219
03:16:47,200 --> 03:16:50,560
Speaker 3: have gone to one candidate or another. But even if

3220
03:16:50,600 --> 03:16:53,720
Speaker 3: you do add all of his votes on to disgraced

3221
03:16:53,720 --> 03:16:58,080
Speaker 3: former Governor Andrew Cuomo's total, Zoran still comes out on

3222
03:16:58,480 --> 03:16:59,440
Speaker 3: top well.

3223
03:16:59,280 --> 03:17:02,120
Speaker 2: Which was something there was legitimately a lot of question

3224
03:17:02,160 --> 03:17:05,280
Speaker 2: about as to like whether or not will Sila staying

3225
03:17:05,320 --> 03:17:09,120
Speaker 2: in matter right? Uh, And it's it's a really good

3226
03:17:09,200 --> 03:17:09,879
Speaker 2: sign that it didn't.

3227
03:17:10,840 --> 03:17:14,600
Speaker 3: It did not Slia, So no one really knows how

3228
03:17:14,640 --> 03:17:17,240
Speaker 3: to pronounce the name, including in the city. You hear

3229
03:17:17,280 --> 03:17:21,440
Speaker 3: it different pronunciations with different peop at different times. Sometimes

3230
03:17:21,480 --> 03:17:24,920
Speaker 3: it's slilwa, sometimes it's silwa saliwa.

3231
03:17:25,160 --> 03:17:27,599
Speaker 2: All I know is he got stabbed on the subway.

3232
03:17:27,240 --> 03:17:29,840
Speaker 4: Right and shot five times in the back of a

3233
03:17:29,879 --> 03:17:31,360
Speaker 4: cab in the back.

3234
03:17:31,520 --> 03:17:32,080
Speaker 9: That's right.

3235
03:17:32,240 --> 03:17:33,599
Speaker 4: How did they fail.

3236
03:17:33,360 --> 03:17:34,200
Speaker 10: To kill him?

3237
03:17:34,280 --> 03:17:37,360
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, it's harder to kill people by shooting them

3238
03:17:37,360 --> 03:17:38,000
Speaker 2: with a handgun.

3239
03:17:38,040 --> 03:17:41,920
Speaker 6: Then you might think, yeah, apparently hanggum ballistics are just different.

3240
03:17:42,200 --> 03:17:44,199
Speaker 4: Yes, and he does have seventeen cats.

3241
03:17:44,240 --> 03:17:48,560
Speaker 3: He ran on Republican and the Protected the Protect Animals Party.

3242
03:17:49,160 --> 03:17:52,039
Speaker 3: You can have some criticism for past ills that that

3243
03:17:52,120 --> 03:17:55,600
Speaker 3: he has contributed to, but he is certainly mixed up

3244
03:17:55,600 --> 03:17:58,560
Speaker 3: for that in some way for being a fascinating character.

3245
03:17:59,240 --> 03:18:01,320
Speaker 2: He's a very New York kind of figure.

3246
03:18:01,879 --> 03:18:01,959
Speaker 30: Ed.

3247
03:18:02,600 --> 03:18:06,400
Speaker 3: He was the only major all candidate to call and

3248
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:12,600
Speaker 3: congratulate Zora mom Donnie last night. Both Clobo and may

3249
03:18:12,640 --> 03:18:16,720
Speaker 3: Or Adams did not call Mom Donnie, but Curtis did,

3250
03:18:17,080 --> 03:18:20,120
Speaker 3: which is kind of beautiful. It's kind of beautiful.

3251
03:18:20,160 --> 03:18:21,760
Speaker 2: He's a classy man. You don't get to wear a

3252
03:18:21,800 --> 03:18:24,400
Speaker 2: red beret like that unless you have some manners.

3253
03:18:25,240 --> 03:18:28,280
Speaker 6: The British Parachute Regiment would beg to disagree about having

3254
03:18:28,360 --> 03:18:29,800
Speaker 6: nanas and wearing red hats.

3255
03:18:30,600 --> 03:18:33,360
Speaker 2: No, he's my head cannon now is that he is

3256
03:18:33,360 --> 03:18:34,360
Speaker 2: the British paratrooper.

3257
03:18:35,320 --> 03:18:39,040
Speaker 6: Just drop him in with seventeen cats and he and

3258
03:18:39,080 --> 03:18:40,560
Speaker 6: he starts milling immediately.

3259
03:18:40,800 --> 03:18:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he saves that fucking mall in Nairobi. Or tell

3260
03:18:44,680 --> 03:18:45,119
Speaker 2: you what, the.

3261
03:18:45,160 --> 03:18:47,400
Speaker 6: Argentines wouldn't have fucked with the Falklands of Curtis and

3262
03:18:47,680 --> 03:18:52,080
Speaker 6: there not with all those cats. That's where he's going

3263
03:18:52,120 --> 03:18:55,280
Speaker 6: now that he's being banished in New York like piss guys,

3264
03:18:55,760 --> 03:18:58,600
Speaker 6: I shouldn't take this. Just an island of Catlett.

3265
03:19:01,200 --> 03:19:04,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, Staten Island, which.

3266
03:19:05,080 --> 03:19:07,960
Speaker 2: You're a real New Yorker now, Gary, you shed on

3267
03:19:08,040 --> 03:19:09,199
Speaker 2: Staten Island.

3268
03:19:09,400 --> 03:19:12,080
Speaker 3: Which is the only borough that went for Cuomo where

3269
03:19:12,080 --> 03:19:15,240
Speaker 3: he was up thirty three points. That was very funny,

3270
03:19:15,560 --> 03:19:19,200
Speaker 3: Momdanni won every other bureau up twenty in Brooklyn, up

3271
03:19:19,240 --> 03:19:22,560
Speaker 3: ten in Manhattan, of five in Queens and eleven in

3272
03:19:22,600 --> 03:19:23,200
Speaker 3: the Bronx.

3273
03:19:23,480 --> 03:19:26,120
Speaker 2: From what this should tell everyone everywhere in the country

3274
03:19:26,160 --> 03:19:29,360
Speaker 2: about what is possible in politics, even in times as

3275
03:19:29,400 --> 03:19:31,480
Speaker 2: dark as this. Is that he was what eight percent

3276
03:19:31,680 --> 03:19:35,679
Speaker 2: a year ago, the six percent it's like in January,

3277
03:19:35,760 --> 03:19:39,120
Speaker 2: six percent in January. And he didn't just eke it

3278
03:19:39,160 --> 03:19:41,080
Speaker 2: out because there were a shitload of guys. This isn't

3279
03:19:41,120 --> 03:19:43,320
Speaker 2: like an Arnold thing where everybody's on the fucking ballot

3280
03:19:43,320 --> 03:19:48,720
Speaker 2: and it's like a crazy cartoon election. He legitimately votes

3281
03:19:48,800 --> 03:19:49,800
Speaker 2: nowhere and won.

3282
03:19:50,080 --> 03:19:54,760
Speaker 3: The most votes for a mayoral candidate in almost fifty years. Yeah,

3283
03:19:54,959 --> 03:19:58,320
Speaker 3: nearly reaching the like the vote totals in this election

3284
03:19:58,400 --> 03:20:00,640
Speaker 3: for like a presidential election in the city.

3285
03:20:01,080 --> 03:20:03,960
Speaker 6: It's very impressive for like a mid cycle off cycle

3286
03:20:03,959 --> 03:20:06,080
Speaker 6: election turnout wise, yep.

3287
03:20:06,680 --> 03:20:09,560
Speaker 3: Specifically, he won a whole bunch of votes that he

3288
03:20:09,920 --> 03:20:13,480
Speaker 3: did not gain the primary among uh some like black

3289
03:20:13,520 --> 03:20:16,760
Speaker 3: and Latino voters. You can see that in the turnout

3290
03:20:16,920 --> 03:20:18,400
Speaker 3: at like the Bronx.

3291
03:20:18,040 --> 03:20:22,840
Speaker 2: And these these people aren't overwhelmingly at least at this stage,

3292
03:20:22,879 --> 03:20:26,280
Speaker 2: folks who have been convinced of every aspect of ideology

3293
03:20:26,320 --> 03:20:28,959
Speaker 2: that Zorn has ever put out there. People who looked

3294
03:20:28,959 --> 03:20:30,680
Speaker 2: at who was available are like, this guy seems like

3295
03:20:30,680 --> 03:20:33,640
Speaker 2: he genuinely wants to do something. Yeah, and they lost

3296
03:20:33,800 --> 03:20:37,000
Speaker 2: to the specific policies they're not they're not paying attention

3297
03:20:37,040 --> 03:20:39,440
Speaker 2: to the fact that he quoted Eugene V. Debs. They're talking,

3298
03:20:39,480 --> 03:20:42,520
Speaker 2: they're listening to his his policies on like creating municipal

3299
03:20:42,520 --> 03:20:44,000
Speaker 2: grocery stores and stuff.

3300
03:20:44,120 --> 03:20:48,240
Speaker 3: Right, it's about affordability, not ideology. And Zorn's strict focus

3301
03:20:48,240 --> 03:20:50,760
Speaker 3: on affordability, not running a campaign that like falls back

3302
03:20:50,760 --> 03:20:53,520
Speaker 3: on fear, not running a campaign about foreign policy when

3303
03:20:53,520 --> 03:20:57,000
Speaker 3: you're in fucking New York City. A strict focus on

3304
03:20:57,040 --> 03:21:00,240
Speaker 3: affordability was the key to winning this pain.

3305
03:21:00,520 --> 03:21:04,800
Speaker 2: A strict focus on affordability while not pretending not to

3306
03:21:04,879 --> 03:21:08,600
Speaker 2: have the ideology, which is also really noteworthy. Right where

3307
03:21:08,640 --> 03:21:11,120
Speaker 2: he's still he's still he isn't he's not like talking

3308
03:21:11,160 --> 03:21:12,400
Speaker 2: around it, right.

3309
03:21:12,320 --> 03:21:15,480
Speaker 3: No, he's not apologizing or hiding the fact that he's

3310
03:21:15,480 --> 03:21:21,760
Speaker 3: a democratic socialist. Yeah, And this produced some super interesting results.

3311
03:21:21,760 --> 03:21:24,520
Speaker 3: If you if you refer back to the last election

3312
03:21:24,640 --> 03:21:28,480
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four and in everyone bemoaning like, how how

3313
03:21:28,520 --> 03:21:31,800
Speaker 3: come young men are are so politically lost?

3314
03:21:31,800 --> 03:21:34,000
Speaker 4: Why are they all going so far to the right.

3315
03:21:34,840 --> 03:21:39,040
Speaker 3: Sixty eight percent of men age eighteen to twenty nine

3316
03:21:39,520 --> 03:21:44,080
Speaker 3: go to mom donnie, sixty six percent of men thirty

3317
03:21:44,120 --> 03:21:47,680
Speaker 3: to forty forty five percent of men forty five to

3318
03:21:47,720 --> 03:21:52,120
Speaker 3: sixty five among women eighteen to twenty nine years old,

3319
03:21:52,400 --> 03:21:56,800
Speaker 3: eighty four percent. Donnie looking said, dom numbers home.

3320
03:21:58,280 --> 03:21:59,879
Speaker 4: Bath party election numbers.

3321
03:22:00,040 --> 03:22:04,160
Speaker 2: What actually Saddam Hussein out to Creedy did in fact vote,

3322
03:22:04,200 --> 03:22:06,720
Speaker 2: but he went for He broke hard for Cuomo. Honestly,

3323
03:22:06,760 --> 03:22:08,560
Speaker 2: at the end, it was the sex crimes that that

3324
03:22:09,600 --> 03:22:12,920
Speaker 2: did it for UNI did vote for Slowa though that

3325
03:22:13,040 --> 03:22:14,640
Speaker 2: was kind of weird. I'm gonna be honest with you.

3326
03:22:14,800 --> 03:22:16,560
Speaker 2: We're all trying to parse that one out.

3327
03:22:16,680 --> 03:22:17,480
Speaker 6: It's a cat thing.

3328
03:22:18,040 --> 03:22:21,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I said, like not hiding his political inspirations

3329
03:22:21,440 --> 03:22:25,240
Speaker 3: in any way. Quoted eugen Debs ten seconds.

3330
03:22:24,680 --> 03:22:26,080
Speaker 4: Into his victory speech.

3331
03:22:26,240 --> 03:22:29,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, immediately you understand, like, oh, this guy's like playing

3332
03:22:30,240 --> 03:22:31,119
Speaker 3: he knows what's up.

3333
03:22:31,520 --> 03:22:36,359
Speaker 2: Eugene V. Debs, the socialist who ran for president from prison. Yeah, yes,

3334
03:22:37,600 --> 03:22:40,360
Speaker 2: to know who Eugene V. Debs is, like arguably the

3335
03:22:40,400 --> 03:22:44,359
Speaker 2: most radical national candidate who has ever existed in this country.

3336
03:22:44,680 --> 03:22:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his speech was extremely poetic. It got a

3337
03:22:49,080 --> 03:22:52,840
Speaker 3: very strong positive reaction from the people who I watched

3338
03:22:52,879 --> 03:22:56,240
Speaker 3: this with in Bushwick, which was the district that was

3339
03:22:56,280 --> 03:22:59,720
Speaker 3: the most pro Mamdani out of the entire electoral methemicity.

3340
03:23:00,720 --> 03:23:02,920
Speaker 3: But he started by talking about how power has been

3341
03:23:03,000 --> 03:23:05,560
Speaker 3: kept out of the hands of working people by the

3342
03:23:05,640 --> 03:23:08,480
Speaker 3: hands that keep the city going by lifting boxes, by

3343
03:23:08,720 --> 03:23:12,560
Speaker 3: gripping the handlebars of delivery bikes, and collecting burned scars

3344
03:23:12,560 --> 03:23:13,400
Speaker 3: from cooking food.

3345
03:23:13,760 --> 03:23:14,120
Speaker 2: Quote.

3346
03:23:14,160 --> 03:23:16,640
Speaker 3: Over the last twelve months, you have dared to reach

3347
03:23:16,760 --> 03:23:20,120
Speaker 3: for something greater. Tonight, against all odds, we have grasped it.

3348
03:23:20,440 --> 03:23:24,800
Speaker 3: The future is in our hands unquote. The whole speech

3349
03:23:24,879 --> 03:23:27,520
Speaker 3: was kind of a rife with little like metaphors and

3350
03:23:27,560 --> 03:23:28,600
Speaker 3: allegories like that.

3351
03:23:28,640 --> 03:23:30,480
Speaker 4: It was very cute.

3352
03:23:31,320 --> 03:23:33,720
Speaker 3: Went on to discuss how the campaign toppled a political

3353
03:23:33,800 --> 03:23:40,320
Speaker 3: dynasty and gave one of the most like fine tuned.

3354
03:23:40,000 --> 03:23:41,120
Speaker 4: Dishes I've ever seen.

3355
03:23:41,200 --> 03:23:46,640
Speaker 3: Quote, I wish Andrew Cuomo only the best in private life.

3356
03:23:46,879 --> 03:23:48,400
Speaker 4: It's a phenomenal cook.

3357
03:23:49,240 --> 03:23:51,920
Speaker 2: But I hope I never have to say his name.

3358
03:23:51,800 --> 03:23:54,240
Speaker 3: Again, or but let tonight be the last time I

3359
03:23:54,320 --> 03:23:58,880
Speaker 3: utter his name. Only the best in private life?

3360
03:23:58,959 --> 03:24:01,120
Speaker 4: Is yeah.

3361
03:24:01,160 --> 03:24:03,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it's basically this is like, he's not the

3362
03:24:03,879 --> 03:24:06,600
Speaker 2: originator of this particular kind of diss It goes back

3363
03:24:06,640 --> 03:24:08,720
Speaker 2: a while, but the gist of that is like everyone's

3364
03:24:08,800 --> 03:24:10,359
Speaker 2: moment be a family man.

3365
03:24:10,879 --> 03:24:12,440
Speaker 4: Get out of a way.

3366
03:24:13,120 --> 03:24:15,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3367
03:24:16,160 --> 03:24:19,000
Speaker 3: Repeatedly, Mam Donnie has has used the word mandate to

3368
03:24:19,200 --> 03:24:21,960
Speaker 3: describe this selection and the results.

3369
03:24:22,040 --> 03:24:22,280
Speaker 4: Quote.

3370
03:24:22,440 --> 03:24:24,480
Speaker 3: New York has delivered a mandate for change, a mandate

3371
03:24:24,520 --> 03:24:26,440
Speaker 3: for a new kind of politics, mandate for a city

3372
03:24:26,480 --> 03:24:29,400
Speaker 3: we can afford, a mandate for a government that delivers

3373
03:24:29,480 --> 03:24:33,959
Speaker 3: exactly that. I'm going to play a short clip here.

3374
03:24:34,160 --> 03:24:38,560
Speaker 31: Thank you to the next generation of New Yorkers who

3375
03:24:38,640 --> 03:24:42,279
Speaker 31: refused to accept that the promise of a better future

3376
03:24:42,840 --> 03:24:47,720
Speaker 31: was a relic of the past. You showed that when

3377
03:24:47,800 --> 03:24:51,720
Speaker 31: politics speaks to you without condescension, we can usher.

3378
03:24:51,480 --> 03:24:53,920
Speaker 27: In a new era of leadership.

3379
03:24:56,600 --> 03:25:01,600
Speaker 31: We will fight for you because we are you, or

3380
03:25:01,640 --> 03:25:05,359
Speaker 31: as we say on Steinway and I'm incomb while.

3381
03:25:05,240 --> 03:25:13,520
Speaker 2: Cum the Arabic there wild wild that we've moved this

3382
03:25:13,680 --> 03:25:17,120
Speaker 2: far in New York, that it's in credit wins you

3383
03:25:17,200 --> 03:25:19,600
Speaker 2: an election Like that didn't win him the election, but

3384
03:25:19,720 --> 03:25:22,240
Speaker 2: like they really tried the nine to eleven shit. Rudy

3385
03:25:22,320 --> 03:25:27,400
Speaker 2: Juliani posted today a crude photoshop of his own face

3386
03:25:27,600 --> 03:25:31,600
Speaker 2: in the fires of the twin of the burning Twin Towers. Yeah,

3387
03:25:31,800 --> 03:25:36,280
Speaker 2: we forgot written across it, and that did None of

3388
03:25:36,320 --> 03:25:37,320
Speaker 2: that shit did anything.

3389
03:25:37,879 --> 03:25:41,119
Speaker 3: The last month of the campaign against Mamdani, whether that's

3390
03:25:41,200 --> 03:25:45,520
Speaker 3: from people like Bill acts Bloomberg or Cuomo's actual team,

3391
03:25:45,840 --> 03:25:49,080
Speaker 3: has has used what people have been calling the nine

3392
03:25:49,120 --> 03:25:52,480
Speaker 3: eleven card, incessantly playing clips of nine to eleven with

3393
03:25:52,680 --> 03:25:56,360
Speaker 3: like zoron like emblazon, like over overtop, playing clips from

3394
03:25:56,560 --> 03:26:00,360
Speaker 3: Hassan talking about nine to eleven. But the islamophobe that

3395
03:26:00,440 --> 03:26:02,920
Speaker 3: the Cuomo campaign has resorted to as a last ditch

3396
03:26:02,959 --> 03:26:06,480
Speaker 3: effort to stop Mamdani has been despicable, and the fact

3397
03:26:06,520 --> 03:26:10,000
Speaker 3: that this did not scare Momdanni into like hiding or

3398
03:26:10,160 --> 03:26:11,640
Speaker 3: like restricting that.

3399
03:26:11,800 --> 03:26:14,200
Speaker 4: Part of himself is incredibly admirable.

3400
03:26:14,440 --> 03:26:16,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, but they wasn't just nine to eleven right, like

3401
03:26:16,560 --> 03:26:19,600
Speaker 6: you said. It was the broad Islam like they deployed

3402
03:26:19,640 --> 03:26:21,920
Speaker 6: as they always do, like every urban area in Britain

3403
03:26:22,240 --> 03:26:26,360
Speaker 6: is now like the Califate, like this bullshit that exists

3404
03:26:26,440 --> 03:26:29,200
Speaker 6: only in the American conservative mind. And it failed, which

3405
03:26:29,240 --> 03:26:29,520
Speaker 6: is good.

3406
03:26:30,040 --> 03:26:32,119
Speaker 3: Specifically for a lot of the speech it was about

3407
03:26:32,160 --> 03:26:35,680
Speaker 3: juxtaposing like how we used to have good things in

3408
03:26:35,800 --> 03:26:38,360
Speaker 3: the past, like we had this idea that like good

3409
03:26:38,440 --> 03:26:40,920
Speaker 3: things now are always out of reach, and juxtaposing this

3410
03:26:41,080 --> 03:26:44,880
Speaker 3: like idea of like hope or or like past exceptionalism

3411
03:26:45,240 --> 03:26:47,279
Speaker 3: that we just don't feel like we've access to anymore,

3412
03:26:47,800 --> 03:26:50,480
Speaker 3: and showing that if you actually involve young people, we

3413
03:26:50,520 --> 03:26:54,560
Speaker 3: can actually do do good things in our city now.

3414
03:26:55,120 --> 03:26:58,120
Speaker 3: And I really liked the line about like politics that

3415
03:26:58,160 --> 03:27:02,119
Speaker 3: speaks to you without condescension, and how much this campaign

3416
03:27:02,240 --> 03:27:05,440
Speaker 3: was like ran by and for you know, young candidates

3417
03:27:05,480 --> 03:27:06,200
Speaker 3: and young voters.

3418
03:27:06,959 --> 03:27:07,240
Speaker 27: Sorry.

3419
03:27:07,280 --> 03:27:10,760
Speaker 3: Went on to thank the people who have been forgotten

3420
03:27:10,959 --> 03:27:14,880
Speaker 3: by the politics of our city and how they've supported

3421
03:27:15,040 --> 03:27:20,640
Speaker 3: his campaign quote Yemeni bodega owners and Mexican abuelas, Sengalese

3422
03:27:20,680 --> 03:27:25,840
Speaker 3: taxi drivers and Uzbek nurses, Trinidadian line cooks and Ethiopian aunties, unquote.

3423
03:27:26,320 --> 03:27:28,080
Speaker 3: And he went on to mention the kind of people

3424
03:27:28,120 --> 03:27:31,120
Speaker 3: that this campaign is about, and towards the end of

3425
03:27:31,200 --> 03:27:32,960
Speaker 3: that section, he talked about the hunger strike that he

3426
03:27:33,000 --> 03:27:35,880
Speaker 3: participated in four years ago in order to win debt

3427
03:27:35,959 --> 03:27:37,480
Speaker 3: relief for cab drivers.

3428
03:27:38,000 --> 03:27:42,440
Speaker 27: And it's about people like Richard the taxi driver.

3429
03:27:42,680 --> 03:27:45,720
Speaker 31: I went on a fifteen day hunger strike with outside

3430
03:27:45,760 --> 03:27:52,199
Speaker 31: of city hall, who still has to drive his cab

3431
03:27:52,360 --> 03:27:53,320
Speaker 31: seven days a week.

3432
03:27:55,360 --> 03:27:57,720
Speaker 27: My brother, we are in city hall now.

3433
03:28:02,040 --> 03:28:04,640
Speaker 3: That is that is the energy of like the campaign

3434
03:28:04,680 --> 03:28:07,720
Speaker 3: and the city right now, Like that sort of framing,

3435
03:28:08,120 --> 03:28:10,360
Speaker 3: and that's the energy that people are like carrying through.

3436
03:28:10,720 --> 03:28:14,360
Speaker 2: I saw among the right wing fever spawns responses to this.

3437
03:28:14,760 --> 03:28:18,160
Speaker 2: Mike Cernovich taking a clip from the election night party

3438
03:28:18,360 --> 03:28:21,360
Speaker 2: where one of the people who is attending Zoran's party

3439
03:28:21,480 --> 03:28:24,160
Speaker 2: made a comment about how like white people need to

3440
03:28:24,200 --> 03:28:26,520
Speaker 2: get on board with the idea that like our culture

3441
03:28:26,640 --> 03:28:29,960
Speaker 2: is multiculturalism in this country right, Like it's it's not

3442
03:28:30,400 --> 03:28:34,039
Speaker 2: anything else, Like that's that's like what has made America.

3443
03:28:34,760 --> 03:28:37,480
Speaker 2: And Mike did not react well to that.

3444
03:28:38,640 --> 03:28:41,800
Speaker 6: I can't imagine the declaration of Warsovich mad.

3445
03:28:42,080 --> 03:28:45,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, but no, like especially in New York, out of

3446
03:28:45,400 --> 03:28:47,520
Speaker 3: like anywhere in the country, like especially in New York,

3447
03:28:48,280 --> 03:28:51,440
Speaker 3: the culture is made through the mix of immigrants that

3448
03:28:51,560 --> 03:28:54,279
Speaker 3: have built this city. And this is something that Zorn

3449
03:28:54,520 --> 03:28:58,360
Speaker 3: discussed throughout the speech. Zorn went on to thank thee

3450
03:28:58,400 --> 03:29:02,039
Speaker 3: hundred thousand campaign volunteers and specifically how their efforts quote

3451
03:29:02,080 --> 03:29:06,080
Speaker 3: eroded the cynicism that has come to define our politics.

3452
03:29:06,800 --> 03:29:08,480
Speaker 4: I liked that line, and.

3453
03:29:08,520 --> 03:29:11,440
Speaker 3: Then he asked New Yorkers to breathe this moment in quote,

3454
03:29:11,520 --> 03:29:13,120
Speaker 3: we have held our breath for longer than we know.

3455
03:29:13,520 --> 03:29:16,320
Speaker 3: We have held it in anticipation of defeat, held it

3456
03:29:16,360 --> 03:29:18,279
Speaker 3: because the air has been knocked out of our lungs

3457
03:29:18,560 --> 03:29:20,880
Speaker 3: too many times to count, held it because we cannot

3458
03:29:20,920 --> 03:29:24,160
Speaker 3: afford to exhale. Thanks to all of those who have

3459
03:29:24,200 --> 03:29:26,280
Speaker 3: sacrificed so much, we are breathing in the air of

3460
03:29:26,320 --> 03:29:28,960
Speaker 3: a city that has been reborn. There are many who

3461
03:29:29,000 --> 03:29:31,199
Speaker 3: thought this day would never come, who feared we would

3462
03:29:31,240 --> 03:29:34,840
Speaker 3: be condemned only to a future of less, with every

3463
03:29:34,920 --> 03:29:37,960
Speaker 3: election consigning us to simply more of the same. And

3464
03:29:38,400 --> 03:29:41,720
Speaker 3: there are others who see politics today as too cruel

3465
03:29:42,040 --> 03:29:44,680
Speaker 3: for the flame of hope to still burn New York.

3466
03:29:44,760 --> 03:29:47,720
Speaker 3: We have answered those fears, unquote.

3467
03:29:48,959 --> 03:29:53,640
Speaker 31: And while we cast our ballots alone, we chose hope together,

3468
03:29:57,000 --> 03:30:03,320
Speaker 31: hope over tyranny, hope over big and small ideas, hope

3469
03:30:04,120 --> 03:30:09,400
Speaker 31: over despair. We won because New Yorkers allowed themselves to

3470
03:30:09,560 --> 03:30:15,520
Speaker 31: hope that the impossible could be made possible. And we

3471
03:30:15,680 --> 03:30:19,680
Speaker 31: won because we insisted that no longer would politics be

3472
03:30:19,840 --> 03:30:23,680
Speaker 31: something that is done to us. Now it is something

3473
03:30:24,000 --> 03:30:36,200
Speaker 31: that we do. Standing before you, I think of the

3474
03:30:36,280 --> 03:30:41,959
Speaker 31: words of Juan lal Nehru. A moment comes, but rarely

3475
03:30:42,040 --> 03:30:45,120
Speaker 31: in history, when we step out from the old to

3476
03:30:45,240 --> 03:30:48,360
Speaker 31: the new, when an age ends, and when the soul

3477
03:30:48,480 --> 03:30:53,160
Speaker 31: of a nation long suppressed finds utterance. Tonight we have

3478
03:30:53,280 --> 03:30:55,360
Speaker 31: stepped out from the old into the new.

3479
03:30:58,040 --> 03:31:02,480
Speaker 3: The line about politics not being something that's done to you, yeah, yeah,

3480
03:31:02,879 --> 03:31:07,879
Speaker 3: that really outlines how politics has felt in this country

3481
03:31:08,000 --> 03:31:10,960
Speaker 3: for as basically as long as I can remember. He

3482
03:31:11,040 --> 03:31:14,640
Speaker 3: then outlined what his central agenda to tackle the cost

3483
03:31:14,720 --> 03:31:17,600
Speaker 3: of living crisis is, including freezing the rent for more

3484
03:31:17,640 --> 03:31:21,040
Speaker 3: than two million rits, timbolized tenants, making buses faster and free,

3485
03:31:21,040 --> 03:31:24,320
Speaker 3: and delivering universal childcare across the city, saying, quote, this

3486
03:31:24,360 --> 03:31:26,680
Speaker 3: will be an age where New Yorkers expect from their

3487
03:31:26,760 --> 03:31:29,879
Speaker 3: leaders a bold vision of what we will achieve, rather

3488
03:31:30,000 --> 03:31:32,600
Speaker 3: than a list of excuses for what we are too

3489
03:31:33,000 --> 03:31:34,360
Speaker 3: timid to attempt.

3490
03:31:35,200 --> 03:31:38,480
Speaker 4: Unquote. Let's go on a quick break, and we will

3491
03:31:38,520 --> 03:31:41,240
Speaker 4: come back to talk a little bit more about the election.

3492
03:31:54,520 --> 03:31:55,360
Speaker 6: All right, we're back.

3493
03:31:56,240 --> 03:31:59,600
Speaker 3: During the second half of this speech, Zoron turned to

3494
03:32:00,040 --> 03:32:05,520
Speaker 3: address Donald Trump. Right this looming thing across politics nationwide,

3495
03:32:05,560 --> 03:32:09,000
Speaker 3: but specifically New York, as Trump has threatened to start

3496
03:32:09,040 --> 03:32:11,320
Speaker 3: to fuck with New York even more. If Zoron is

3497
03:32:11,360 --> 03:32:15,400
Speaker 3: elected and people in New York know this, and about

3498
03:32:15,440 --> 03:32:19,160
Speaker 3: halfway through, Zoron addressed Trump directly, which we will get

3499
03:32:19,200 --> 03:32:22,800
Speaker 3: to you in a sack. But before he directly talked

3500
03:32:23,040 --> 03:32:26,920
Speaker 3: to Trump, in the speech, Zoron laid out what types

3501
03:32:27,000 --> 03:32:29,960
Speaker 3: of people the city government will be focusing on protecting

3502
03:32:30,240 --> 03:32:32,280
Speaker 3: from Trump's division and hate.

3503
03:32:33,760 --> 03:32:37,360
Speaker 31: In this new age we make for ourselves, we will

3504
03:32:37,440 --> 03:32:41,640
Speaker 31: refuse to allow those who traffic in division and hate

3505
03:32:42,040 --> 03:32:47,320
Speaker 31: to pit us against one another. In this moment of

3506
03:32:47,400 --> 03:32:50,800
Speaker 31: political darkness. New York will be the light.

3507
03:32:54,800 --> 03:32:55,000
Speaker 19: Here.

3508
03:32:55,720 --> 03:33:00,520
Speaker 31: We believe in standing up for those we love. Whether

3509
03:33:00,760 --> 03:33:04,720
Speaker 31: you are an immigrant, a member of the trans community,

3510
03:33:06,600 --> 03:33:09,160
Speaker 31: one of the many black women that Donald Trump is

3511
03:33:09,240 --> 03:33:14,440
Speaker 31: fired from a federal job, a single mom still waiting

3512
03:33:14,520 --> 03:33:19,280
Speaker 31: for the cost of groceries to go down, or anyone

3513
03:33:19,360 --> 03:33:23,560
Speaker 31: else with their back against the wall, Your struggle is

3514
03:33:23,720 --> 03:33:24,320
Speaker 31: ours two.

3515
03:33:27,920 --> 03:33:32,920
Speaker 3: Specifically, I like this idea of in the darkened political moment,

3516
03:33:33,000 --> 03:33:35,920
Speaker 3: this unit states is in New York and there on

3517
03:33:35,959 --> 03:33:38,680
Speaker 3: administration and how that reflects New York and general though

3518
03:33:39,120 --> 03:33:42,199
Speaker 3: will be a beacon for the rest of the country,

3519
03:33:42,680 --> 03:33:46,039
Speaker 3: and naming like the trans community is like the second

3520
03:33:46,520 --> 03:33:51,240
Speaker 3: group mentioned, there was heavily appreciated in the Bushwick trans

3521
03:33:51,440 --> 03:33:54,920
Speaker 3: Watch party that I was at. Zorah went on to

3522
03:33:54,959 --> 03:33:57,440
Speaker 3: say that quote, no more will New York be a

3523
03:33:57,520 --> 03:34:00,720
Speaker 3: city where you can traffic in Islamophobia and win an election.

3524
03:34:01,120 --> 03:34:03,560
Speaker 3: This new age will be defined by a competence and

3525
03:34:03,600 --> 03:34:06,720
Speaker 3: a compassion that have too long been placed in odds

3526
03:34:06,760 --> 03:34:08,880
Speaker 3: with one another. We will prove that there is no

3527
03:34:09,040 --> 03:34:11,959
Speaker 3: problem too large for government to solve, and no concern

3528
03:34:12,200 --> 03:34:15,279
Speaker 3: too small for it to care about. Tens of millions

3529
03:34:15,320 --> 03:34:18,440
Speaker 3: of dollars have been spent to redefine reality and to

3530
03:34:18,520 --> 03:34:20,440
Speaker 3: convince our neighbors that this new age is something that

3531
03:34:20,520 --> 03:34:23,600
Speaker 3: should frighten them. As has often occurred, the billionaire class

3532
03:34:23,640 --> 03:34:26,200
Speaker 3: has sought to convince those making thirty dollars an hour

3533
03:34:26,240 --> 03:34:28,720
Speaker 3: that their enemies are those earning twenty dollars an hour.

3534
03:34:29,200 --> 03:34:31,520
Speaker 3: They want the people to fight amongst ourselves so that

3535
03:34:31,600 --> 03:34:34,879
Speaker 3: we remain distracted from the work of remaking a long

3536
03:34:35,000 --> 03:34:39,600
Speaker 3: broken system. Together, we will usher in a generation of change.

3537
03:34:39,879 --> 03:34:41,920
Speaker 3: And if we embrace this brave new course, rather than

3538
03:34:41,959 --> 03:34:44,759
Speaker 3: fleeing from it, we can respond to oligarchy and authoritarianism

3539
03:34:44,840 --> 03:34:48,800
Speaker 3: with the strength it fears, not the appeasement it craves.

3540
03:34:50,080 --> 03:34:53,000
Speaker 10: I think this whole section is something very important, and

3541
03:34:53,080 --> 03:34:55,920
Speaker 10: this has been something that's been very consistent about momt

3542
03:34:56,000 --> 03:34:59,720
Speaker 10: Donnie's entire campaign, which is there's been on the left

3543
03:34:59,720 --> 03:35:04,879
Speaker 10: of for very very long time a just interminable, intractable

3544
03:35:04,959 --> 03:35:08,880
Speaker 10: conflict between this idea of like purely focusing on class

3545
03:35:09,000 --> 03:35:12,680
Speaker 10: politics or talking about race. And but I think what

3546
03:35:12,760 --> 03:35:15,360
Speaker 10: Montdami is doing here has been very effective, right, is

3547
03:35:16,400 --> 03:35:19,080
Speaker 10: you can just do both. And in fact, as the

3548
03:35:19,200 --> 03:35:21,720
Speaker 10: left over the last you know, sort of senses kind

3549
03:35:21,760 --> 03:35:24,160
Speaker 10: of the reemergence of this kind of left in like

3550
03:35:24,200 --> 03:35:28,120
Speaker 10: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, as it's gone on, it's gotten

3551
03:35:28,480 --> 03:35:31,039
Speaker 10: less white, it's gotten more to verse, has gotten more multicultural,

3552
03:35:31,080 --> 03:35:33,400
Speaker 10: and it's been able to fuse these two things together.

3553
03:35:33,400 --> 03:35:35,640
Speaker 10: And it's been able to fuse that with just you know,

3554
03:35:35,920 --> 03:35:39,320
Speaker 10: like being very very openly pro trans and like there

3555
03:35:39,400 --> 03:35:41,040
Speaker 10: was you know, there's also a pretty big response that

3556
03:35:41,120 --> 03:35:43,320
Speaker 10: I saw from people talking about the fact that he

3557
03:35:43,400 --> 03:35:45,520
Speaker 10: specifically mentioned that it was black women who were being

3558
03:35:45,560 --> 03:35:48,320
Speaker 10: fired by the Trump administration. Right, And you can just

3559
03:35:48,400 --> 03:35:51,720
Speaker 10: do all these things together and it works, and it's

3560
03:35:51,760 --> 03:35:55,440
Speaker 10: worked the whole time, and refusing to pit these things

3561
03:35:55,480 --> 03:35:58,680
Speaker 10: against each other, like refusing to pit affordability against trans rights,

3562
03:35:58,680 --> 03:36:01,560
Speaker 10: refusing to pit, you know, like fusing to pit the

3563
03:36:01,600 --> 03:36:03,160
Speaker 10: politics of like defending. And this is the thing that

3564
03:36:03,240 --> 03:36:06,320
Speaker 10: like fucking Bernie is terrible at right, where like Bernie

3565
03:36:06,920 --> 03:36:08,840
Speaker 10: like has been like has a whole rant about how

3566
03:36:08,879 --> 03:36:11,320
Speaker 10: Trump has been right on like we have to reduce immigration, right,

3567
03:36:11,879 --> 03:36:13,800
Speaker 10: and you don't have to do that. You can be

3568
03:36:13,959 --> 03:36:16,240
Speaker 10: pro immigrant, you can be protraned, you can be pro

3569
03:36:16,360 --> 03:36:18,920
Speaker 10: black women, you can be you know, and and you

3570
03:36:18,959 --> 03:36:21,400
Speaker 10: can also want everything to cost less, and you can

3571
03:36:21,640 --> 03:36:23,120
Speaker 10: be in favor of the fact that the US is

3572
03:36:23,160 --> 03:36:26,320
Speaker 10: a is a multicultural society and can only function as one.

3573
03:36:26,640 --> 03:36:29,000
Speaker 10: And it's it's a winning form of politics. And I'm

3574
03:36:29,040 --> 03:36:30,560
Speaker 10: glad we're finally getting there.

3575
03:36:31,879 --> 03:36:36,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it will be great if this New York

3576
03:36:36,160 --> 03:36:39,360
Speaker 3: City as a beacon can actually shine and not get

3577
03:36:39,560 --> 03:36:42,040
Speaker 3: stifled out in these in these next four years. Because

3578
03:36:42,400 --> 03:36:46,840
Speaker 3: Zorn is unless unless things happened, Zora will be the

3579
03:36:46,920 --> 03:36:50,200
Speaker 3: mayor for the remainder of the Trump term. Right like

3580
03:36:50,280 --> 03:36:53,800
Speaker 3: this is he will be mayor after second Trump administration

3581
03:36:54,000 --> 03:36:58,640
Speaker 3: is over, barring any unfortunate incidents or make sure your

3582
03:36:58,680 --> 03:37:00,320
Speaker 3: private security is really good.

3583
03:37:02,560 --> 03:37:08,840
Speaker 6: Way whoever NYPD detail which gets your own guys, Yeah,

3584
03:37:08,959 --> 03:37:13,280
Speaker 6: it'll be fine, but it also it means, like, like

3585
03:37:13,400 --> 03:37:16,800
Speaker 6: from I guess a national perspective, it is likely that

3586
03:37:17,080 --> 03:37:21,120
Speaker 6: mom Danny will become like the enemy number one of

3587
03:37:21,160 --> 03:37:26,120
Speaker 6: the Trump administration, where they probably Newsome or pritsh Kaan

3588
03:37:26,240 --> 03:37:29,560
Speaker 6: now right, Like it's it is easier because of the

3589
03:37:30,320 --> 03:37:34,000
Speaker 6: obvious bigotry that underlies a lot of the Republican Party

3590
03:37:34,360 --> 03:37:36,320
Speaker 6: to go after a brown dude. Yes, and that is

3591
03:37:36,400 --> 03:37:37,200
Speaker 6: what they are going to do.

3592
03:37:37,280 --> 03:37:40,960
Speaker 4: And they're going to use brown democratic socialists.

3593
03:37:40,640 --> 03:37:44,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, who stands up for trans people and migrants. Likely

3594
03:37:44,959 --> 03:37:48,520
Speaker 6: you saw how acceptable Islamophobia is in Cuomo's campaign, right,

3595
03:37:48,600 --> 03:37:51,640
Speaker 6: Like he just go on to every mainstream network and say, shit,

3596
03:37:51,720 --> 03:37:55,800
Speaker 6: that is fucking disgusting. Yeah, and so we should prepare

3597
03:37:55,840 --> 03:37:57,840
Speaker 6: ourselves for four more years of that, I guess. And

3598
03:37:58,600 --> 03:38:00,840
Speaker 6: I think he does a very good job of repudiating that,

3599
03:38:01,080 --> 03:38:03,400
Speaker 6: and obviously the elector in New York did too, But

3600
03:38:04,160 --> 03:38:05,760
Speaker 6: that is going to be what we are going to

3601
03:38:05,800 --> 03:38:06,640
Speaker 6: see as a result of this.

3602
03:38:07,200 --> 03:38:09,480
Speaker 3: Well no, and like so much of the resistance to

3603
03:38:09,680 --> 03:38:12,400
Speaker 3: Zoron came from this idea that if he wins, that

3604
03:38:12,560 --> 03:38:14,920
Speaker 3: means that this is going to be what people point

3605
03:38:14,959 --> 03:38:18,040
Speaker 3: to as a future for politics, specifically democratic politics, And

3606
03:38:18,080 --> 03:38:20,000
Speaker 3: a lot of people wanted to stop him because they

3607
03:38:20,080 --> 03:38:22,440
Speaker 3: knew that's going to happen. If he is in control

3608
03:38:22,760 --> 03:38:26,520
Speaker 3: of the biggest city in the country as the Democratic mayor.

3609
03:38:27,080 --> 03:38:30,080
Speaker 3: That's going to be influential for what democratic politics will

3610
03:38:30,160 --> 03:38:33,640
Speaker 3: be after they've got completely clobbered last year. And he's

3611
03:38:33,720 --> 03:38:36,400
Speaker 3: showing that a different type of politics is possible, even

3612
03:38:37,000 --> 03:38:40,080
Speaker 3: even within the Democratic Party. And that's that's true, like

3613
03:38:40,200 --> 03:38:43,720
Speaker 3: altering what the party is fundamentally. Yeah, And I think

3614
03:38:43,760 --> 03:38:47,160
Speaker 3: it is a cool little side note that Zoron voted

3615
03:38:47,200 --> 03:38:50,520
Speaker 3: for himself on the Working Families party line and in

3616
03:38:50,640 --> 03:38:53,720
Speaker 3: fact not the Democratic Party line, because how the New

3617
03:38:53,800 --> 03:38:56,960
Speaker 3: York mayoral ballot's work. I'm going to play one more

3618
03:38:57,080 --> 03:39:01,360
Speaker 3: clip from the speech of Zoron specifically addressing Trump. It's

3619
03:39:01,400 --> 03:39:04,400
Speaker 3: going to be a teeny bit longer, and I think

3620
03:39:04,440 --> 03:39:08,959
Speaker 3: we'll cut We'll shorten some of the applause bits because

3621
03:39:09,000 --> 03:39:12,000
Speaker 3: some of the applause sections gone for he quite long.

3622
03:39:12,440 --> 03:39:13,640
Speaker 3: But this will be the last club.

3623
03:39:13,959 --> 03:39:14,560
Speaker 27: After all.

3624
03:39:15,360 --> 03:39:18,760
Speaker 31: If anyone can show a nation betrayed by Donald Trump

3625
03:39:19,160 --> 03:39:21,800
Speaker 31: how to defeat him, it is the city that gave

3626
03:39:21,959 --> 03:39:29,240
Speaker 31: rise to him. And if there is any way to

3627
03:39:29,480 --> 03:39:33,800
Speaker 31: terrify a despot, it is by dismantling the very conditions

3628
03:39:34,000 --> 03:39:38,400
Speaker 31: that allowed him to accumulate power. This is not only

3629
03:39:38,480 --> 03:39:42,200
Speaker 31: how we stopped Trump, it's how we stop the next one. So,

3630
03:39:42,400 --> 03:39:45,800
Speaker 31: Donald Trump, since I know you're watching.

3631
03:39:47,320 --> 03:39:53,040
Speaker 30: I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.

3632
03:39:56,720 --> 03:39:59,360
Speaker 30: We will hold bad landlords.

3633
03:39:58,800 --> 03:40:01,759
Speaker 31: To account because the Donald Trumps.

3634
03:40:01,400 --> 03:40:03,320
Speaker 27: Of our city have grown far.

3635
03:40:03,320 --> 03:40:07,160
Speaker 31: Too comfortable taking advantage of their tenants. We will put

3636
03:40:07,200 --> 03:40:10,200
Speaker 31: an end to the culture of corruption that has allowed

3637
03:40:10,280 --> 03:40:14,920
Speaker 31: billionaires like Trump to evade taxation and exploit tax breaks.

3638
03:40:15,520 --> 03:40:20,520
Speaker 31: We will stand alongside unions and expand labor protections because

3639
03:40:20,560 --> 03:40:26,720
Speaker 31: we know, just as Donald Trump does, that when working

3640
03:40:26,840 --> 03:40:31,000
Speaker 31: people have ironclad rights, the bosses who seek to extort

3641
03:40:31,080 --> 03:40:36,000
Speaker 31: them become very small. Indeed, New York will remain a

3642
03:40:36,200 --> 03:40:42,960
Speaker 31: city of immigrants, a city built by immigrants, powered by immigrants,

3643
03:40:43,800 --> 03:40:49,520
Speaker 31: and as of tonight, led by an immigrant. So hear me,

3644
03:40:50,640 --> 03:40:54,160
Speaker 31: President Trump, when I say this, To get to any

3645
03:40:54,280 --> 03:40:56,320
Speaker 31: of us, you will have to get.

3646
03:40:56,200 --> 03:40:57,360
Speaker 27: Through all of us.

3647
03:41:00,760 --> 03:41:01,480
Speaker 9: The shit rocks.

3648
03:41:01,760 --> 03:41:06,640
Speaker 4: It's good, it's good, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool

3649
03:41:06,720 --> 03:41:08,200
Speaker 4: for a mayor Alection to say that.

3650
03:41:09,000 --> 03:41:10,720
Speaker 6: It didn't manage to get in the New York is

3651
03:41:10,760 --> 03:41:13,080
Speaker 6: the Anchora of America, which I was hoping for. But

3652
03:41:13,760 --> 03:41:16,360
Speaker 6: otherwise great, that's Eric Adams this bit.

3653
03:41:16,800 --> 03:41:17,000
Speaker 31: Yeah.

3654
03:41:17,200 --> 03:41:19,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, sad day for sad day for Turkey today.

3655
03:41:19,920 --> 03:41:22,040
Speaker 10: I guess, on an actual important note, I think it

3656
03:41:22,120 --> 03:41:25,160
Speaker 10: is really important that you know, all of this energy

3657
03:41:25,240 --> 03:41:28,039
Speaker 10: against Trump, right and against all the shit that he's

3658
03:41:28,080 --> 03:41:31,720
Speaker 10: doing that's so hideously unpopular, it's starting to be channeled

3659
03:41:31,840 --> 03:41:34,320
Speaker 10: into politics that can actually defeat him. Yeah, and that

3660
03:41:34,400 --> 03:41:36,560
Speaker 10: are actually good, you know, and that he's talking about

3661
03:41:36,560 --> 03:41:38,360
Speaker 10: specifically the fact that you have to destoy the conditions

3662
03:41:38,400 --> 03:41:39,840
Speaker 10: that created and so they don't create the next one.

3663
03:41:39,879 --> 03:41:40,720
Speaker 6: Like this fucking rocks.

3664
03:41:40,800 --> 03:41:41,320
Speaker 4: This is good.

3665
03:41:42,120 --> 03:41:42,320
Speaker 12: Yeah.

3666
03:41:43,600 --> 03:41:45,920
Speaker 6: For so long, Like for I mean most of the

3667
03:41:46,000 --> 03:41:48,560
Speaker 6: twenty sixteen to twenty twenty period and for a lot

3668
03:41:48,600 --> 03:41:51,520
Speaker 6: of this year, we've seen so many people turn the

3669
03:41:51,640 --> 03:41:54,119
Speaker 6: obvious disgust that people have at what Trump is doing

3670
03:41:54,240 --> 03:41:58,120
Speaker 6: into grifts into supporting a politics which fundamentally allowed for

3671
03:41:58,200 --> 03:42:01,760
Speaker 6: the conditions we are in now. Right, see someone repudiate

3672
03:42:01,800 --> 03:42:04,760
Speaker 6: that and to see more than a million people turn

3673
03:42:04,800 --> 03:42:08,720
Speaker 6: out to support that is fantastic, Like it's genuinely hopeful.

3674
03:42:09,120 --> 03:42:11,080
Speaker 3: It's something like Zors like acknowledge. It's like this is

3675
03:42:11,160 --> 03:42:14,800
Speaker 3: not like the end, right, this is a means, not

3676
03:42:15,000 --> 03:42:17,000
Speaker 3: the means either, Like this is this, this is a

3677
03:42:17,200 --> 03:42:20,000
Speaker 3: means to an end. And this whole campaign started, as

3678
03:42:20,120 --> 03:42:22,680
Speaker 3: he's referred to it as a quote unquote electoral project

3679
03:42:23,520 --> 03:42:26,160
Speaker 3: by the New York City DSA like this was largely

3680
03:42:26,200 --> 03:42:32,800
Speaker 3: an experiment, and an experiment that grew wildly, wildly kind

3681
03:42:32,840 --> 03:42:34,879
Speaker 3: of out of what I assumed they kind of saw

3682
03:42:34,959 --> 03:42:38,080
Speaker 3: it as in the earlier in the earlier days, and

3683
03:42:38,200 --> 03:42:41,080
Speaker 3: now they're in this like moment and they have to

3684
03:42:41,320 --> 03:42:43,200
Speaker 3: they have to keep rolling with it. But it is

3685
03:42:43,320 --> 03:42:46,600
Speaker 3: it is an experiment for a a version of doing this.

3686
03:42:46,959 --> 03:42:48,720
Speaker 3: And he knows this is not like the only method

3687
03:42:48,840 --> 03:42:52,720
Speaker 3: or tactic to be utilized. But as as an experiment,

3688
03:42:52,879 --> 03:42:56,840
Speaker 3: I think it's so far pretty well done now as

3689
03:42:56,959 --> 03:42:59,720
Speaker 3: zorn closest speech by calling to chart a new path

3690
03:43:00,040 --> 03:43:03,200
Speaker 3: as bold as the campaign has already been, saying that

3691
03:43:03,280 --> 03:43:06,080
Speaker 3: conventional wisdom would claim that he is far from the

3692
03:43:06,160 --> 03:43:09,480
Speaker 3: perfect candidate. Quote, I'm young, despite my best efforts to

3693
03:43:09,520 --> 03:43:12,359
Speaker 3: grow older. I am Muslim, I am a democratic socialist

3694
03:43:12,560 --> 03:43:14,760
Speaker 3: and thet stabbing of all. I refuse to apologize for

3695
03:43:14,840 --> 03:43:17,320
Speaker 3: any of this. And yet if tonight teaches us anything,

3696
03:43:17,680 --> 03:43:21,000
Speaker 3: it is that convention has held us back. We have

3697
03:43:21,160 --> 03:43:24,480
Speaker 3: bowed at the altar of caution. We have paid a

3698
03:43:24,680 --> 03:43:28,640
Speaker 3: mighty price. Too many working people cannot recognize themselves in

3699
03:43:28,879 --> 03:43:32,120
Speaker 3: our party, and too many among us have turned to

3700
03:43:32,200 --> 03:43:36,040
Speaker 3: the right for answers to why they've been left behind.

3701
03:43:36,760 --> 03:43:40,440
Speaker 3: We will leave mediocrity in our past. No longer will

3702
03:43:40,440 --> 03:43:43,120
Speaker 3: we have to open a history book for proof that

3703
03:43:43,320 --> 03:43:47,000
Speaker 3: democrats can dare to be great. Our greatness will be

3704
03:43:47,160 --> 03:43:53,080
Speaker 3: anything but abstract unquote. And he concludes by saying that

3705
03:43:53,280 --> 03:43:56,520
Speaker 3: the greatness will be felt by rent stabilized tenants who

3706
03:43:56,560 --> 03:43:59,240
Speaker 3: will wake up knowing they are Rent hasn't swored my grandparents,

3707
03:43:59,240 --> 03:44:01,400
Speaker 3: who can afford to stay in their home and whose

3708
03:44:01,440 --> 03:44:04,320
Speaker 3: grandchildren live nearby because the cost of childcare is not

3709
03:44:04,400 --> 03:44:06,840
Speaker 3: driving them out of the city, And by the single

3710
03:44:06,920 --> 03:44:08,800
Speaker 3: mothers who don't need to rush their kids to school

3711
03:44:09,040 --> 03:44:11,480
Speaker 3: because they can commute to work on a fast bus quote.

3712
03:44:11,720 --> 03:44:13,960
Speaker 3: Most of all, it will be felt by each New

3713
03:44:14,080 --> 03:44:18,560
Speaker 3: Yorker when the city they love finally loves them back unquote.

3714
03:44:19,360 --> 03:44:22,160
Speaker 3: The stuff about like worshiping at the altar of caution

3715
03:44:22,840 --> 03:44:27,560
Speaker 3: for like the past, the past like twenty more more

3716
03:44:27,640 --> 03:44:30,280
Speaker 3: than twenty, but especially the past like twenty years of

3717
03:44:30,360 --> 03:44:34,160
Speaker 3: like Democrat politics, and how he is also recognizing that

3718
03:44:34,280 --> 03:44:36,800
Speaker 3: like this is, this could mark a fundamental shift in

3719
03:44:36,879 --> 03:44:40,760
Speaker 3: what the Democratic Party actually is because the people Democrats included,

3720
03:44:40,760 --> 03:44:44,000
Speaker 3: who've been trying to stop this have failed miserably so far,

3721
03:44:44,440 --> 03:44:47,880
Speaker 3: putting tens of millions of dollars into a campaign to

3722
03:44:48,240 --> 03:44:51,640
Speaker 3: try to crush crush this version of what the future

3723
03:44:51,720 --> 03:44:54,800
Speaker 3: of New York Democrat politics is, and more people since

3724
03:44:54,879 --> 03:44:59,800
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty nine showed up to deny that future. That's

3725
03:45:00,080 --> 03:45:03,360
Speaker 3: all I have for Zoran right now. It's literally, you know,

3726
03:45:03,520 --> 03:45:07,560
Speaker 3: less than twenty four hours after the Yeah, but this

3727
03:45:07,800 --> 03:45:10,080
Speaker 3: was not just a New York City mayoral election. There

3728
03:45:10,120 --> 03:45:12,320
Speaker 3: were there were other races, including other other things in

3729
03:45:12,400 --> 03:45:15,840
Speaker 3: New York. There was a prop one amendment to the

3730
03:45:15,879 --> 03:45:19,520
Speaker 3: state Constitution to retroactively authorize the winter sports facilities on

3731
03:45:19,680 --> 03:45:24,080
Speaker 3: Mount then Hovenburg, which is protected forest land and would

3732
03:45:24,120 --> 03:45:26,600
Speaker 3: require the state add two thousand, five hundred acres of

3733
03:45:26,680 --> 03:45:31,120
Speaker 3: newly protected land elsewhere in the ad Ranak. That's how

3734
03:45:31,120 --> 03:45:38,560
Speaker 3: I'm saying it at Irondack Mountains. Yeah, run, which was passed,

3735
03:45:38,680 --> 03:45:40,840
Speaker 3: and this allows them to continue to build and maintain

3736
03:45:40,879 --> 03:45:43,720
Speaker 3: the winter sports facility of Propositions two through six where

3737
03:45:43,800 --> 03:45:46,680
Speaker 3: New York City Charter amendments. The two to four were

3738
03:45:46,760 --> 03:45:49,960
Speaker 3: housing reform proposals to fast track the approval process for

3739
03:45:50,040 --> 03:45:54,320
Speaker 3: affordable housing and simplify zoning reviews and establish an Affordable

3740
03:45:54,360 --> 03:45:57,760
Speaker 3: Housing Appeals Board. All of these past these will limit

3741
03:45:57,840 --> 03:46:00,800
Speaker 3: the ability of the City Council to control and slow

3742
03:46:00,840 --> 03:46:04,640
Speaker 3: down housing development and empower the mayor specifically to build

3743
03:46:04,760 --> 03:46:07,879
Speaker 3: more affordable units faster. And Prop five, which also passed,

3744
03:46:07,920 --> 03:46:10,280
Speaker 3: creates a new digital methnicity. The only prop to fail,

3745
03:46:10,320 --> 03:46:13,080
Speaker 3: which was number six, was to move local elections to

3746
03:46:13,160 --> 03:46:18,000
Speaker 3: be in line with presidential elections on that four year basis. Basically,

3747
03:46:18,480 --> 03:46:21,560
Speaker 3: the ballot that Zorn filled out himself was the one

3748
03:46:21,680 --> 03:46:25,680
Speaker 3: that passed for all of these, all of these proposals.

3749
03:46:25,800 --> 03:46:28,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, you get. They call it a coattails effect in

3750
03:46:28,240 --> 03:46:31,119
Speaker 6: political science, right, like the idea that the people.

3751
03:46:31,280 --> 03:46:33,000
Speaker 4: Announced his ballot that morning.

3752
03:46:33,160 --> 03:46:34,200
Speaker 7: He did not.

3753
03:46:34,879 --> 03:46:37,160
Speaker 3: He he didn't, and he didn't even announce it like

3754
03:46:37,200 --> 03:46:39,320
Speaker 3: a journalist asked him what he was voting on. He

3755
03:46:39,600 --> 03:46:44,000
Speaker 3: specifically did not advocate for any of these or try

3756
03:46:44,040 --> 03:46:46,280
Speaker 3: to dissuade anyone from any of these before the election.

3757
03:46:46,520 --> 03:46:51,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, for sure. But you get a generally aligned politically electorate, right,

3758
03:46:51,600 --> 03:46:54,760
Speaker 6: a relatively progressive in American terms, the electorate coming out

3759
03:46:54,800 --> 03:46:56,800
Speaker 6: to vote for him, who will look at these things

3760
03:46:56,840 --> 03:46:58,440
Speaker 6: and say that seems to make sense with the way

3761
03:46:58,440 --> 03:46:59,080
Speaker 6: I see the world.

3762
03:47:00,959 --> 03:47:07,160
Speaker 3: Democrat Abigail Spenberger won the governor of Virginia flipping blue.

3763
03:47:07,720 --> 03:47:10,959
Speaker 3: Jay Jones, a Democrat candidate for Virginia AG, also beat

3764
03:47:11,000 --> 03:47:13,560
Speaker 3: the Republican incumbent. This was after a month of attacks

3765
03:47:13,680 --> 03:47:15,720
Speaker 3: for a series of text messages from twenty twenty two

3766
03:47:16,320 --> 03:47:20,920
Speaker 3: where j Jones said that if certain Republican delegates died,

3767
03:47:21,160 --> 03:47:23,840
Speaker 3: he would quote go to their funerals to piss on

3768
03:47:23,879 --> 03:47:27,520
Speaker 3: their graves unquote, and wish for the hypothetical deaths of

3769
03:47:27,760 --> 03:47:31,800
Speaker 3: Virginia House Speaker Todd Gilbert's children. Quote only would people

3770
03:47:32,200 --> 03:47:35,280
Speaker 3: feel pained personally? Do they move on policy? I mean,

3771
03:47:35,440 --> 03:47:38,120
Speaker 3: do I think Todd and Jennifer are evil and that

3772
03:47:38,200 --> 03:47:39,600
Speaker 3: they're breeding little fascists?

3773
03:47:40,280 --> 03:47:44,279
Speaker 4: Yes, that's also not really hypathetical deaths.

3774
03:47:45,000 --> 03:47:50,200
Speaker 3: He did in a call with a with another Republican politician,

3775
03:47:50,600 --> 03:47:52,880
Speaker 3: and then after the call, they continued texting about it.

3776
03:47:53,200 --> 03:47:56,040
Speaker 3: So the proof is in these texts and he has

3777
03:47:56,080 --> 03:47:59,039
Speaker 3: admitted this. And basically he was like, if these people's

3778
03:47:59,040 --> 03:48:01,360
Speaker 3: like children were to get killed in mass shooting, maybe

3779
03:48:01,400 --> 03:48:03,720
Speaker 3: their opinions on guns would change.

3780
03:48:03,760 --> 03:48:07,320
Speaker 4: That's essentially what he's expressing there. And then he also

3781
03:48:08,560 --> 03:48:09,400
Speaker 4: he also was.

3782
03:48:11,640 --> 03:48:16,119
Speaker 3: Quoted in these leads text messages as saying, quote, three people,

3783
03:48:16,680 --> 03:48:21,800
Speaker 3: two bullets, Virginia House Speaker Todd, Gilbert Hitler, and Paul Pott.

3784
03:48:22,400 --> 03:48:25,960
Speaker 3: Gilbert gets two bullets to the head. Spoiler put Gilbert

3785
03:48:26,080 --> 03:48:28,000
Speaker 3: in the crew, sorry after.

3786
03:48:31,440 --> 03:48:34,360
Speaker 6: Not just as an elected official, as an attorney general,

3787
03:48:34,600 --> 03:48:37,280
Speaker 6: someone going to be a call that you put in

3788
03:48:37,400 --> 03:48:39,000
Speaker 6: the fucking text message.

3789
03:48:39,600 --> 03:48:40,040
Speaker 27: Spoiler.

3790
03:48:40,280 --> 03:48:43,000
Speaker 3: Put Gilbert in the crew with the two worst people

3791
03:48:43,040 --> 03:48:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, and he receives both bullets every time.

3792
03:48:47,480 --> 03:48:50,480
Speaker 2: It's insane, op sec hero.

3793
03:48:51,160 --> 03:48:53,000
Speaker 4: But that is the new attorney general.

3794
03:48:53,879 --> 03:48:58,200
Speaker 3: That's the new Democrat Attorney General of Virginia who the

3795
03:48:58,280 --> 03:49:01,720
Speaker 3: right has been attacking for quite for relentlessly the past month,

3796
03:49:01,800 --> 03:49:02,200
Speaker 3: because you.

3797
03:49:02,320 --> 03:49:07,080
Speaker 6: Really fucked up. If you can't, like no, if you

3798
03:49:07,160 --> 03:49:10,800
Speaker 6: can't run attacks on that guy, and you still all.

3799
03:49:10,720 --> 03:49:12,920
Speaker 10: Of those jokes about the whine moms in the suburbs,

3800
03:49:13,040 --> 03:49:15,960
Speaker 10: like wanting blooded, like you're looking at this like oh no,

3801
03:49:16,080 --> 03:49:19,200
Speaker 10: hell yeah yeah, give me four ward bullets will put

3802
03:49:19,240 --> 03:49:19,800
Speaker 10: in this guy.

3803
03:49:20,280 --> 03:49:25,200
Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy. It's it's it's pretty astonishing. Maine voted

3804
03:49:25,600 --> 03:49:29,760
Speaker 3: no sixty three percent on a voter restriction measure. Voters

3805
03:49:29,800 --> 03:49:35,360
Speaker 3: extended the Democrat Pennsylvania Supreme Court, and the California Redistricting

3806
03:49:35,600 --> 03:49:39,000
Speaker 3: Measure or Proposition, passed with sixty three point eight percent.

3807
03:49:39,560 --> 03:49:41,440
Speaker 4: James, Yeah, do you have stuff on this?

3808
03:49:41,800 --> 03:49:42,000
Speaker 14: Yeah?

3809
03:49:42,160 --> 03:49:45,120
Speaker 6: So Prop fifty in California, California, it was like a

3810
03:49:45,240 --> 03:49:47,880
Speaker 6: one issue ballot, right, you said the Prop fifty this

3811
03:49:48,200 --> 03:49:51,440
Speaker 6: would temporarily redistrict. I think people maybe have not been

3812
03:49:52,560 --> 03:49:55,760
Speaker 6: like often it gets missed, and it is temporarily redistrict

3813
03:49:55,800 --> 03:50:01,160
Speaker 6: in California until re establishing the nonpartisan committee that that

3814
03:50:01,280 --> 03:50:03,840
Speaker 6: does districting in twenty thirty one. For the twenty thirty

3815
03:50:03,920 --> 03:50:07,080
Speaker 6: two those districts will come back or whether they will

3816
03:50:07,120 --> 03:50:10,120
Speaker 6: return to a non partisan districting in twenty thirty two.

3817
03:50:11,280 --> 03:50:14,960
Speaker 6: This is one of the most expensive propositions in state history.

3818
03:50:15,600 --> 03:50:18,680
Speaker 6: One hundred and twenty million was spent in favor. Forty

3819
03:50:18,680 --> 03:50:23,680
Speaker 6: four million against there was also outside money. Newsome already

3820
03:50:23,920 --> 03:50:27,240
Speaker 6: called the New York, Illinois and other Democrat majority seats

3821
03:50:27,280 --> 03:50:32,840
Speaker 6: to do the same. Right, it's going to likely remove

3822
03:50:33,480 --> 03:50:37,440
Speaker 6: about five Republican seats, or those Republicans are going to struggle. Right,

3823
03:50:37,960 --> 03:50:40,320
Speaker 6: one of them would be at San Diego's Mountain Empire

3824
03:50:40,360 --> 03:50:42,680
Speaker 6: and East County seat, which is currently the forty eighth.

3825
03:50:43,480 --> 03:50:47,080
Speaker 6: That seat has been redistricted a few times, right, it's

3826
03:50:47,120 --> 03:50:51,120
Speaker 6: moved around. It's currently darryl Isa's seat. In response, California

3827
03:50:51,160 --> 03:50:55,760
Speaker 6: Republicans have already filed a lawsuit. Suit was filed by

3828
03:50:55,840 --> 03:50:57,320
Speaker 6: Harmiat Dillon's law.

3829
03:50:57,280 --> 03:51:02,360
Speaker 2: Firm, Yay Dyland of the party.

3830
03:51:03,320 --> 03:51:05,520
Speaker 6: Dylan is in the Trump administration now, but.

3831
03:51:06,120 --> 03:51:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ellen's in the Trump administration and occasionally in my

3832
03:51:09,240 --> 03:51:10,560
Speaker 2: inbox making threats.

3833
03:51:13,480 --> 03:51:13,760
Speaker 22: Great.

3834
03:51:14,000 --> 03:51:16,480
Speaker 6: But it was Dylan's law firm that the father case.

3835
03:51:16,600 --> 03:51:16,720
Speaker 12: Right.

3836
03:51:17,400 --> 03:51:21,080
Speaker 6: The case has claimed that California drew the new lines

3837
03:51:21,120 --> 03:51:26,520
Speaker 6: to quote specifically favor Hispanic voters, which it's a similar

3838
03:51:26,640 --> 03:51:30,360
Speaker 6: claim to the Louisiana versus Calais. I think Calais there

3839
03:51:30,400 --> 03:51:32,040
Speaker 6: is the way they say it here case which is

3840
03:51:32,080 --> 03:51:36,120
Speaker 6: currently before the Supreme Court, which the Supreme Court seems

3841
03:51:36,160 --> 03:51:40,040
Speaker 6: to be suggesting it might be it might be amenable

3842
03:51:40,120 --> 03:51:43,360
Speaker 6: to this argument, right, that the consideration of race in

3843
03:51:43,480 --> 03:51:49,440
Speaker 6: redistricting is discriminate free. Yesterday, Trump truth quoting here, the

3844
03:51:49,640 --> 03:51:54,600
Speaker 6: unconstitutional redistricting vote in California is a giant scam. That

3845
03:51:54,720 --> 03:51:57,880
Speaker 6: part is in block capitals, as is characteristic. The rest

3846
03:51:57,960 --> 03:52:02,200
Speaker 6: is sporadically capitalized to the quote. Now in the entire process,

3847
03:52:02,680 --> 03:52:07,280
Speaker 6: in particular, the voting itself is rigged all quote mail

3848
03:52:07,360 --> 03:52:11,680
Speaker 6: in ballots where the Republicans in that state are shut out.

3849
03:52:12,120 --> 03:52:17,720
Speaker 6: It's under very serious legal and criminal review. Stay tuned. Yeah,

3850
03:52:18,040 --> 03:52:20,320
Speaker 6: you know, fairly predictable. We talked about it last week.

3851
03:52:20,680 --> 03:52:23,960
Speaker 6: It's not entirely possible for me to pass out that

3852
03:52:24,840 --> 03:52:28,840
Speaker 6: second sentence, but I think we can see what direction

3853
03:52:29,040 --> 03:52:31,400
Speaker 6: is pushing in. Right, This was predictable that this was

3854
03:52:31,440 --> 03:52:33,720
Speaker 6: going to happen, and we'll keep you updated on it.

3855
03:52:34,480 --> 03:52:38,120
Speaker 6: Also predictable that we would have to pivot to ads again,

3856
03:52:38,520 --> 03:52:53,800
Speaker 6: which is what we're going to do now. And we

3857
03:52:54,200 --> 03:52:57,520
Speaker 6: are back a little bit of immigration US this week.

3858
03:52:57,560 --> 03:53:00,760
Speaker 6: As always. According to reporting, this was actually last week,

3859
03:53:00,800 --> 03:53:02,800
Speaker 6: but we didn't have time for last week. A countryported

3860
03:53:02,840 --> 03:53:05,760
Speaker 6: by CNN, Trump claimed he was quote very much opposed

3861
03:53:05,880 --> 03:53:08,600
Speaker 6: to his own administration's immigration raid on our home dive

3862
03:53:08,720 --> 03:53:12,840
Speaker 6: plant in Georgia, which obviously this is what he's saying

3863
03:53:12,880 --> 03:53:16,320
Speaker 6: to try and get that foreign direct investment back in Georgia, right,

3864
03:53:16,360 --> 03:53:18,280
Speaker 6: because it looks very much like Georgia is going to

3865
03:53:18,360 --> 03:53:23,040
Speaker 6: pay pretty heavily for that raid. Unfortunately, another man lost

3866
03:53:23,080 --> 03:53:27,160
Speaker 6: his life when fleeing ICE officers last week. He seems

3867
03:53:27,200 --> 03:53:28,800
Speaker 6: to have left a car that he was in and

3868
03:53:28,920 --> 03:53:31,200
Speaker 6: tempted to cross a freeway where he was fatally struck

3869
03:53:31,800 --> 03:53:36,200
Speaker 6: by another car. Yeah, that's the second time this has

3870
03:53:36,240 --> 03:53:40,160
Speaker 6: happened this year. Texas sosigned an agreement with a federal

3871
03:53:40,240 --> 03:53:44,000
Speaker 6: government to allow local DPS officers to operate as ICE

3872
03:53:44,040 --> 03:53:46,800
Speaker 6: officers or technically to operate under the authority of ICE

3873
03:53:46,840 --> 03:53:50,280
Speaker 6: officers under the two eighty seven g program. So this

3874
03:53:50,880 --> 03:53:53,000
Speaker 6: is not the first law enforcement agency in Texas to

3875
03:53:53,160 --> 03:53:56,880
Speaker 6: do this. Lots of local agency's had but the DPS

3876
03:53:57,000 --> 03:53:59,960
Speaker 6: is statewide, right, so this would this would include officers

3877
03:54:00,120 --> 03:54:03,880
Speaker 6: of the Texas Highway Patrol has five thousand employees. It

3878
03:54:04,000 --> 03:54:07,520
Speaker 6: will make Texas a markedly more hostile place for migrants.

3879
03:54:08,520 --> 03:54:14,080
Speaker 6: The authority allows warrantles to tension under loosely limited, loosely

3880
03:54:14,120 --> 03:54:18,560
Speaker 6: phrased supervision by an ICE officer. Right, it allows Texas

3881
03:54:18,640 --> 03:54:21,880
Speaker 6: cops to detain a question people have a suspected being

3882
03:54:21,920 --> 03:54:26,200
Speaker 6: in the United States without documentation here in San Diego.

3883
03:54:26,400 --> 03:54:30,400
Speaker 6: San Diego's Border Patrol Sector released a video with I

3884
03:54:30,440 --> 03:54:32,800
Speaker 6: think it was like, I'll have to check what song.

3885
03:54:32,880 --> 03:54:35,600
Speaker 6: It was like some cringe kind of pop punk soundtrack

3886
03:54:36,240 --> 03:54:39,920
Speaker 6: of the dynamting of land west of the ha Cumber Wilderness.

3887
03:54:40,560 --> 03:54:44,320
Speaker 6: This is likely the construction that saw many environmental and

3888
03:54:44,720 --> 03:54:49,760
Speaker 6: cultural protections waived by the HS secretarynme earlier this year. Right,

3889
03:54:50,400 --> 03:54:52,800
Speaker 6: we're always seeing the beginning of what that looks like,

3890
03:54:52,920 --> 03:54:54,600
Speaker 6: and what that looks like here is just a very

3891
03:54:54,680 --> 03:54:57,920
Speaker 6: unique landscape. Many one I know some people who listen

3892
03:54:58,000 --> 03:54:59,520
Speaker 6: came out to Cumber a couple of years ago to

3893
03:54:59,600 --> 03:55:03,880
Speaker 6: help out. Like it's an extremely unique high desert landscape

3894
03:55:04,280 --> 03:55:06,760
Speaker 6: and it's currently being dynamited.

3895
03:55:06,920 --> 03:55:07,000
Speaker 16: Right.

3896
03:55:07,080 --> 03:55:09,320
Speaker 6: These are the areas where there were little gaps in

3897
03:55:09,440 --> 03:55:12,760
Speaker 6: the border wall because construction there is very hard and

3898
03:55:13,200 --> 03:55:14,800
Speaker 6: the way that they're going ahead with the construction is

3899
03:55:14,840 --> 03:55:19,600
Speaker 6: blowing stuff up. Finally, on the immigration deep the case

3900
03:55:19,640 --> 03:55:23,520
Speaker 6: regarding conditions in the broad View Facility, which is in Chicago.

3901
03:55:23,960 --> 03:55:26,320
Speaker 6: Until earlier this year, it was only for very short stays,

3902
03:55:26,360 --> 03:55:29,880
Speaker 6: like not for twenty four hour stays. Has revealed some

3903
03:55:29,960 --> 03:55:33,880
Speaker 6: of the horrific conditions inside the facility. It confirmed something

3904
03:55:33,960 --> 03:55:36,680
Speaker 6: I've heard from multiple migrants who have been detained or

3905
03:55:36,760 --> 03:55:39,400
Speaker 6: over the US, which is ICE is using the threat

3906
03:55:39,440 --> 03:55:41,720
Speaker 6: of longest stays in poor conditions to get people to

3907
03:55:41,800 --> 03:55:46,320
Speaker 6: sign deportation paperwork. Often it's literally in the overcrowded rooms

3908
03:55:46,360 --> 03:55:48,320
Speaker 6: where they're sleeping and staying right like, at any point

3909
03:55:48,360 --> 03:55:50,760
Speaker 6: you can just walk up to it and sign your name,

3910
03:55:50,800 --> 03:55:54,920
Speaker 6: and you will presumably be removed from those conditions and

3911
03:55:54,960 --> 03:56:00,600
Speaker 6: placed into deportation flight as soon as possible. Directly from

3912
03:56:00,640 --> 03:56:03,200
Speaker 6: the lawsuit here quote people are forced to attempt to

3913
03:56:03,200 --> 03:56:05,680
Speaker 6: sleep for days or sometimes weeks, on plastic chairs or

3914
03:56:05,720 --> 03:56:08,640
Speaker 6: on the filthy concrete floor. They are denied sufficient food

3915
03:56:08,680 --> 03:56:12,040
Speaker 6: and water. They cannot shower, They are denied soap, higgen items,

3916
03:56:12,080 --> 03:56:14,720
Speaker 6: and mental products, and they have no way to clean themselves.

3917
03:56:15,120 --> 03:56:18,080
Speaker 6: They are often denied a change of clothes. Continuing my

3918
03:56:18,200 --> 03:56:21,240
Speaker 6: quote here, the temperatures are extreme and uncomfortable. Most nights

3919
03:56:21,280 --> 03:56:24,880
Speaker 6: are freezing cold. Yet only some receive a thin foil blanket,

3920
03:56:25,320 --> 03:56:28,640
Speaker 6: sweater or sweatpants have tried to retain warmth. The lights

3921
03:56:28,720 --> 03:56:33,240
Speaker 6: are typically on all night. People have also reported being

3922
03:56:33,320 --> 03:56:35,640
Speaker 6: denied water bay agents that are being their running water

3923
03:56:35,760 --> 03:56:38,120
Speaker 6: in the places where they are held, and very little food.

3924
03:56:39,120 --> 03:56:43,680
Speaker 6: We've reported on these conditions before. Some of this is standard. Right,

3925
03:56:43,760 --> 03:56:47,120
Speaker 6: lights on all night, freezing cold, you only get a

3926
03:56:47,280 --> 03:56:49,840
Speaker 6: very thin blanket like that. That has been the case.

3927
03:56:49,880 --> 03:56:51,720
Speaker 6: That was the case throughout the Biden administration. Right they

3928
03:56:51,800 --> 03:56:54,680
Speaker 6: call these places of the ice box, both in English

3929
03:56:54,720 --> 03:56:59,040
Speaker 6: and in Spanish. This has always been the conditions to

3930
03:56:59,040 --> 03:57:01,760
Speaker 6: people have been held in in these facilities have always

3931
03:57:01,800 --> 03:57:05,480
Speaker 6: been in humane. But some of this is particularly bad.

3932
03:57:05,520 --> 03:57:08,160
Speaker 6: People in Broadview reported being so crowded they could not

3933
03:57:08,280 --> 03:57:09,440
Speaker 6: extend their legs.

3934
03:57:10,400 --> 03:57:10,560
Speaker 14: Us.

3935
03:57:11,760 --> 03:57:14,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, so they had to sit like sort of fetal position.

3936
03:57:14,120 --> 03:57:16,520
Speaker 6: They couldn't sit down and extend their legs right alone. Sleep,

3937
03:57:17,400 --> 03:57:22,560
Speaker 6: disgustingly unclean conditions they have. Lots of people have reported

3938
03:57:22,600 --> 03:57:24,960
Speaker 6: paperwork not being able to language that they read write.

3939
03:57:25,400 --> 03:57:28,520
Speaker 6: Bathrooms there are not private, and the lawsuit alleges that

3940
03:57:28,600 --> 03:57:32,080
Speaker 6: people of other genders could see each other using the bathroom,

3941
03:57:33,160 --> 03:57:38,520
Speaker 6: which is pretty disgusting. I've linked to the lawsuit. You

3942
03:57:38,640 --> 03:57:40,440
Speaker 6: can read it if you want to.

3943
03:57:41,760 --> 03:57:43,200
Speaker 10: Terror Park Transition, Go.

3944
03:57:49,920 --> 03:57:52,720
Speaker 27: Racking, Jazz, Barry.

3945
03:57:57,440 --> 03:57:58,640
Speaker 13: Right, jazz b.

3946
03:58:00,360 --> 03:58:04,800
Speaker 10: Ah, music to my ears, Oh boy, Okay, abrupt shift

3947
03:58:04,880 --> 03:58:08,680
Speaker 10: in tone. So we got a little bit more details

3948
03:58:08,840 --> 03:58:11,320
Speaker 10: on the sort of partial agreement that Trump and the

3949
03:58:11,440 --> 03:58:16,800
Speaker 10: Chinese government have sort of come to that has staved

3950
03:58:16,840 --> 03:58:20,080
Speaker 10: off some of the most disastrous of the new trade

3951
03:58:20,120 --> 03:58:21,880
Speaker 10: war elements. Both sides seem to have gotten rid of

3952
03:58:21,920 --> 03:58:25,840
Speaker 10: the fees from ships both docking at their ports and

3953
03:58:26,120 --> 03:58:30,320
Speaker 10: also on like the sort of complicated shipbuilding stuff we

3954
03:58:30,320 --> 03:58:34,480
Speaker 10: talked about last year. The US has paused the thing

3955
03:58:34,520 --> 03:58:36,960
Speaker 10: we talked about last week where they were using the

3956
03:58:37,000 --> 03:58:41,240
Speaker 10: Foreign Ancity List to do anything that was controlled that

3957
03:58:41,320 --> 03:58:43,600
Speaker 10: was like forty percent and more controlled by a thing

3958
03:58:43,680 --> 03:58:46,320
Speaker 10: on the Foreignancsity list couldn't be traded with. The US

3959
03:58:46,440 --> 03:58:49,160
Speaker 10: is backing off on that for a year. Chinese agreed

3960
03:58:49,200 --> 03:58:52,880
Speaker 10: to buy more soybeans. There's also some discussion of China

3961
03:58:52,920 --> 03:58:55,680
Speaker 10: buying more energy products. But this is one of these

3962
03:58:55,720 --> 03:58:58,560
Speaker 10: things that we just we have no idea what that is.

3963
03:58:58,640 --> 03:59:01,080
Speaker 10: It's possible by the time you're listening to there will

3964
03:59:01,120 --> 03:59:04,480
Speaker 10: be information. All we have is buy more energy. And

3965
03:59:04,840 --> 03:59:08,760
Speaker 10: the last thing that Trump said that didn't seem to

3966
03:59:08,800 --> 03:59:11,800
Speaker 10: be part of the negotiations between him and the Chinese

3967
03:59:11,840 --> 03:59:14,760
Speaker 10: government per se, but we're definitely part of negotiations that

3968
03:59:14,760 --> 03:59:17,360
Speaker 10: have been going on between Trump and his cabinet was

3969
03:59:17,440 --> 03:59:21,720
Speaker 10: that there's going to be restrictions on AI chip exports.

3970
03:59:21,800 --> 03:59:25,720
Speaker 10: Although exactly what is not known. All Trump said was

3971
03:59:26,040 --> 03:59:29,000
Speaker 10: quote the most advanced, we will not let anybody have

3972
03:59:29,120 --> 03:59:30,400
Speaker 10: them other than the United States.

3973
03:59:32,000 --> 03:59:33,240
Speaker 9: What this seems to be.

3974
03:59:33,600 --> 03:59:37,240
Speaker 10: And again everyone is kind of murkily hobbling together whatever

3975
03:59:37,320 --> 03:59:40,720
Speaker 10: information they have. What it seems to be is Trump

3976
03:59:40,960 --> 03:59:45,080
Speaker 10: stopped in Vidia from selling its most advanced AI grade

3977
03:59:45,160 --> 03:59:49,080
Speaker 10: chips called Blackwell, to China, which was which Nvidia has

3978
03:59:49,120 --> 03:59:52,000
Speaker 10: been massively lobbying for because they need to expand their

3979
03:59:52,040 --> 03:59:55,880
Speaker 10: market to continue the giant bubble that they've accumulated. Trump

3980
03:59:56,000 --> 03:59:58,360
Speaker 10: has stopped them. It's unclear whether this is going to

3981
03:59:58,400 --> 04:00:00,200
Speaker 10: be made into formal policy or if Trump is just

3982
04:00:00,280 --> 04:00:02,720
Speaker 10: going to personally intervene every time a CEO asks him

3983
04:00:02,760 --> 04:00:06,720
Speaker 10: to do this. But yeah, we also have so today

3984
04:00:06,800 --> 04:00:09,200
Speaker 10: recording November fifth is the start of the Supreme Court

3985
04:00:09,280 --> 04:00:11,760
Speaker 10: case against the tariffs. I think It's worth noting that

3986
04:00:12,640 --> 04:00:15,320
Speaker 10: this court case against the tariffs, it's framed as like

3987
04:00:15,360 --> 04:00:18,040
Speaker 10: a lot of small businesses brought this lawsuit, and they did.

3988
04:00:18,760 --> 04:00:20,760
Speaker 10: But also the reason it's gotten to the Supreme Court

3989
04:00:20,920 --> 04:00:23,920
Speaker 10: is because they're being backed by a huge player in

3990
04:00:24,000 --> 04:00:27,360
Speaker 10: the conservative legal machine. Almost the entire thing is being

3991
04:00:27,640 --> 04:00:30,360
Speaker 10: funded and paid for by the Liberty Justice Center, which

3992
04:00:30,400 --> 04:00:34,040
Speaker 10: is it's a kind of libertarian right wing legal thing

3993
04:00:34,240 --> 04:00:36,600
Speaker 10: backed by like the Walton family and the Coke Network.

3994
04:00:37,480 --> 04:00:39,920
Speaker 10: And this is I think one of the most direct

3995
04:00:40,000 --> 04:00:44,480
Speaker 10: and interesting actual oppositional moves we've seen from this wing

3996
04:00:44,560 --> 04:00:47,360
Speaker 10: of the libertarian business wing of the party, which is very,

3997
04:00:47,520 --> 04:00:50,280
Speaker 10: very pissed off at the tariffs. We've seen a whole

3998
04:00:50,320 --> 04:00:55,520
Speaker 10: bunch of amicus curia briefs from the American Enterpresi Insttrude

3999
04:00:55,520 --> 04:00:57,080
Speaker 10: and the Cato Institute, and a whole bunch of other

4000
04:00:57,120 --> 04:00:59,840
Speaker 10: right wing think tanks who are extremely angry about this.

4001
04:01:00,600 --> 04:01:03,440
Speaker 10: We don't know exactly how it's going to go, but

4002
04:01:03,520 --> 04:01:05,200
Speaker 10: the initial arguments do not seem to be going well

4003
04:01:05,280 --> 04:01:09,720
Speaker 10: for the Tromp administration. So that'll that'll be unfolding and

4004
04:01:09,840 --> 04:01:11,800
Speaker 10: we'll report on it more is as we know more.

4005
04:01:12,200 --> 04:01:15,760
Speaker 10: It's this is literally recording is the first day of trials. So,

4006
04:01:17,200 --> 04:01:20,400
Speaker 10: and finally, I'm going to close on a genuinely deeply

4007
04:01:20,480 --> 04:01:22,880
Speaker 10: baffling piece of news, which is that the day before

4008
04:01:23,000 --> 04:01:27,120
Speaker 10: the election in New York, Greg Abbott posted that there

4009
04:01:27,120 --> 04:01:29,720
Speaker 10: would be a one hundred percent tariff on anyone moving

4010
04:01:29,760 --> 04:01:30,520
Speaker 10: to New York.

4011
04:01:30,360 --> 04:01:31,160
Speaker 9: After the election.

4012
04:01:31,920 --> 04:01:32,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, how does that work?

4013
04:01:33,200 --> 04:01:35,440
Speaker 2: Isn't it moving to Texas from New York?

4014
04:01:36,360 --> 04:01:37,600
Speaker 10: Well, I thought it was to New York.

4015
04:01:38,520 --> 04:01:40,400
Speaker 4: It's for me, it looked like moving to New York

4016
04:01:40,480 --> 04:01:40,840
Speaker 4: as well.

4017
04:01:40,920 --> 04:01:43,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's certainly unclear because this doesn't not seem

4018
04:01:43,200 --> 04:01:45,880
Speaker 3: like a policy proposal. It seems more like a post.

4019
04:01:46,840 --> 04:01:50,560
Speaker 3: It's just a post. It's someone post posting through it.

4020
04:01:51,080 --> 04:01:55,440
Speaker 2: Because this has been from moving from New York to Texas. Yeah, yeah,

4021
04:01:55,760 --> 04:01:57,720
Speaker 2: anyone moving from New York to Texas.

4022
04:01:58,000 --> 04:01:58,480
Speaker 14: Interesting.

4023
04:01:59,400 --> 04:02:03,040
Speaker 10: I don't know tariffs are just posts now, I don't.

4024
04:02:03,160 --> 04:02:05,880
Speaker 2: That's not like a thing that there's law around you

4025
04:02:06,040 --> 04:02:06,920
Speaker 2: being able to do.

4026
04:02:07,240 --> 04:02:08,880
Speaker 10: No, it's it's so one constitutional.

4027
04:02:08,960 --> 04:02:11,000
Speaker 4: I think it's just a post. I don't think it

4028
04:02:11,320 --> 04:02:12,200
Speaker 4: is anything like.

4029
04:02:12,360 --> 04:02:14,880
Speaker 10: Is Yeah, I mean, evidently I think the interesting thing

4030
04:02:14,920 --> 04:02:18,240
Speaker 10: about it, is like, is the way in which tariffs

4031
04:02:18,280 --> 04:02:20,200
Speaker 10: have come to be seen in their Republican mind as

4032
04:02:20,320 --> 04:02:22,360
Speaker 10: like this is something you do to people you're mad at,

4033
04:02:22,760 --> 04:02:26,600
Speaker 10: which is very new development in this is this is

4034
04:02:26,640 --> 04:02:30,800
Speaker 10: a this is a pure Trump too phenomena effectively well absolutely.

4035
04:02:30,480 --> 04:02:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, a marker of how intensely they're paying attention to

4036
04:02:35,360 --> 04:02:39,360
Speaker 2: this election. Like I mean, Abbots said, doing this because

4037
04:02:39,360 --> 04:02:43,000
Speaker 2: I'm sure it'll show Shore up his local popularity. But

4038
04:02:44,040 --> 04:02:46,240
Speaker 2: it's a marker of like a change that has been

4039
04:02:46,360 --> 04:02:49,800
Speaker 2: going on that that has been really like supercharged in

4040
04:02:49,840 --> 04:02:53,080
Speaker 2: the Trump era of no, no, you can't have local

4041
04:02:53,160 --> 04:02:59,000
Speaker 2: politics like it's it's all national politics, and any kind

4042
04:02:59,200 --> 04:03:02,240
Speaker 2: of vote at a state or local level that goes

4043
04:03:02,280 --> 04:03:06,000
Speaker 2: against whatever the party wants is something to be punished,

4044
04:03:06,120 --> 04:03:09,360
Speaker 2: like even if it's two thousand miles away. And that

4045
04:03:09,560 --> 04:03:13,120
Speaker 2: is that hasn't been as dominant in US politics as

4046
04:03:13,160 --> 04:03:15,960
Speaker 2: it has been recently. We should probably talk a little

4047
04:03:16,000 --> 04:03:21,200
Speaker 2: bit about Texas's election night, because that was also pretty consequential.

4048
04:03:21,680 --> 04:03:25,360
Speaker 2: There were seventeen ballot measures passed by the Texas legislature

4049
04:03:25,440 --> 04:03:28,760
Speaker 2: earlier this year by a two thirds majority, and the

4050
04:03:28,800 --> 04:03:32,560
Speaker 2: way Texas law works is that once the legislature votes

4051
04:03:32,600 --> 04:03:35,120
Speaker 2: for a ballot measure, to two thirds majority. It becomes

4052
04:03:35,160 --> 04:03:38,680
Speaker 2: a constitutional amendment after a simple majority of voters on

4053
04:03:38,800 --> 04:03:42,720
Speaker 2: a ballot support it. And there were seventeen measures on

4054
04:03:42,840 --> 04:03:46,280
Speaker 2: the ballot in Texas, which is wild. Very few states

4055
04:03:46,520 --> 04:03:51,000
Speaker 2: and constitutional amendments that the rate Texas does and all

4056
04:03:51,120 --> 04:03:53,840
Speaker 2: of them passed, which is nuts, and some of them

4057
04:03:53,880 --> 04:03:56,600
Speaker 2: are like fine. There was like one to create like

4058
04:03:56,640 --> 04:03:59,120
Speaker 2: a three billion dollar fund for dementia research with like

4059
04:03:59,200 --> 04:04:01,200
Speaker 2: which is like whatever, nobody's got a problem with that.

4060
04:04:01,440 --> 04:04:01,680
Speaker 14: Really.

4061
04:04:02,480 --> 04:04:06,760
Speaker 2: Some questions about implementation maybe, but there's some absolutely bug

4062
04:04:06,880 --> 04:04:10,600
Speaker 2: fuck nuts stuff in here. Proposition thirteen raised the homestead

4063
04:04:10,640 --> 04:04:12,600
Speaker 2: exemption from one hundred thousand dollars to one hundred and

4064
04:04:12,640 --> 04:04:15,000
Speaker 2: forty thousand dollars. It was passed by about eighty percent

4065
04:04:15,080 --> 04:04:18,560
Speaker 2: of voters. This lowers the taxable value of a home,

4066
04:04:18,920 --> 04:04:23,720
Speaker 2: which reduces overall tax bills on your primary residence. Per

4067
04:04:23,760 --> 04:04:26,160
Speaker 2: an article in the Houston Chronicle, the amendments will be

4068
04:04:26,240 --> 04:04:28,920
Speaker 2: especially felt by elderly or disabled Texans who are poised

4069
04:04:28,920 --> 04:04:31,000
Speaker 2: to receive a separate tax, a separate break that brings

4070
04:04:31,040 --> 04:04:33,840
Speaker 2: their total property tax exemptions to two hundred thousand. As

4071
04:04:33,880 --> 04:04:36,400
Speaker 2: a result, roughly half of seniors and people with disabilities

4072
04:04:36,840 --> 04:04:39,320
Speaker 2: living in Harris and Bear Counties will no longer pay

4073
04:04:39,480 --> 04:04:43,760
Speaker 2: any school property taxes. Jesus, I should have to say

4074
04:04:43,800 --> 04:04:47,760
Speaker 2: how bad that is for Texas schools and in general.

4075
04:04:48,520 --> 04:04:51,160
Speaker 2: This A lot of these ballot measures were about making

4076
04:04:51,280 --> 04:04:54,800
Speaker 2: heavy cuts and making it impossible to raise new revenue.

4077
04:04:55,080 --> 04:04:57,400
Speaker 2: The cuts that are just in these ballot measures are

4078
04:04:57,480 --> 04:04:59,440
Speaker 2: going to cost the state about four billion dollars over

4079
04:04:59,440 --> 04:05:01,720
Speaker 2: the next two year years. Right, But that's not all

4080
04:05:01,800 --> 04:05:04,400
Speaker 2: that was done. Several of the bills that were passed

4081
04:05:04,640 --> 04:05:09,880
Speaker 2: banned the potential to create new taxes. Right, So it

4082
04:05:10,040 --> 04:05:14,960
Speaker 2: is now illegal in Texas to create taxes on capital gains,

4083
04:05:15,360 --> 04:05:18,560
Speaker 2: or taxes on the growth of assets like property in stocks,

4084
04:05:18,880 --> 04:05:22,560
Speaker 2: or taxes on inheritance, and to state taxes. Taxes on

4085
04:05:22,840 --> 04:05:26,440
Speaker 2: the operations of stock exchanges are now banned because several

4086
04:05:26,480 --> 04:05:28,280
Speaker 2: have announced plans to open in Texas.

4087
04:05:28,360 --> 04:05:28,480
Speaker 18: Right.

4088
04:05:28,600 --> 04:05:32,280
Speaker 2: So you are looking at I think the estimate here

4089
04:05:32,320 --> 04:05:34,120
Speaker 2: that I'm seeing in the chronicles articles that the states

4090
04:05:34,160 --> 04:05:36,680
Speaker 2: can spend about fifty one billion dollars over the coming

4091
04:05:36,720 --> 04:05:39,560
Speaker 2: biennium to pay for the new cuts and maintain existing ones.

4092
04:05:39,920 --> 04:05:41,920
Speaker 2: Texas is a state that has had for quite a

4093
04:05:42,040 --> 04:05:46,720
Speaker 2: while a budget surplus, and they are basically lighting a

4094
04:05:46,760 --> 04:05:50,360
Speaker 2: lot of that on fire to appeal to rich people

4095
04:05:50,840 --> 04:05:54,840
Speaker 2: and business note owners in stock exchanges to take their

4096
04:05:54,920 --> 04:05:57,840
Speaker 2: assets to Texas. You won't have to help society if

4097
04:05:57,880 --> 04:06:00,360
Speaker 2: you come to Texas. We don't have a society in Texas, right,

4098
04:06:00,840 --> 04:06:03,880
Speaker 2: And that agenda did very well in Texas.

4099
04:06:04,360 --> 04:06:04,680
Speaker 13: Jeez.

4100
04:06:05,480 --> 04:06:08,400
Speaker 2: Anyway, good stuff. I guess the last thing I want

4101
04:06:08,440 --> 04:06:10,560
Speaker 2: to talk about a little bit, since we've got a

4102
04:06:10,640 --> 04:06:13,520
Speaker 2: couple of minutes here is the question on everybody's mind.

4103
04:06:14,000 --> 04:06:16,920
Speaker 2: Should I be flying anywhere for the holidays? Is that

4104
04:06:17,080 --> 04:06:20,840
Speaker 2: going to be a good idea? I'm saying this a

4105
04:06:21,000 --> 04:06:25,280
Speaker 2: day after a horrific crash of a ups flight over

4106
04:06:25,520 --> 04:06:30,480
Speaker 2: Muhammad Ali International Airport in Louisville, right, which I mean,

4107
04:06:30,560 --> 04:06:32,920
Speaker 2: I think seven was the death toll last I saw

4108
04:06:33,240 --> 04:06:34,480
Speaker 2: night Marriish firemalls.

4109
04:06:34,800 --> 04:06:36,280
Speaker 6: I mean at nine this morning?

4110
04:06:36,840 --> 04:06:40,240
Speaker 2: Is it at nine? Because the plane just the engine

4111
04:06:41,040 --> 04:06:45,040
Speaker 2: caught on fire basically on takeoff, and normally, from what

4112
04:06:45,120 --> 04:06:48,360
Speaker 2: I'm reading from pilots, normally that should have been a

4113
04:06:48,480 --> 04:06:51,040
Speaker 2: manageable problem. But because it happened during the ascent, which

4114
04:06:51,120 --> 04:06:53,960
Speaker 2: is the most dangerous part of piloting a plane, and

4115
04:06:54,000 --> 04:06:56,480
Speaker 2: where you have the least control. They were not able

4116
04:06:56,560 --> 04:06:58,840
Speaker 2: to recover or gain any kind of control, and the

4117
04:06:58,880 --> 04:07:02,720
Speaker 2: plane basically plowed directly into a UPS warehouse. And it

4118
04:07:03,000 --> 04:07:06,720
Speaker 2: was loaded with something like three hundred thousand pounds worth

4119
04:07:06,840 --> 04:07:09,280
Speaker 2: of fuel because it was about to fly to Honolulu,

4120
04:07:09,440 --> 04:07:11,520
Speaker 2: so it was as full of fuel as a big

4121
04:07:11,640 --> 04:07:15,000
Speaker 2: plane can be and just a horrific crash. Is this

4122
04:07:15,240 --> 04:07:18,000
Speaker 2: tied to the fact that you have a lot of

4123
04:07:18,160 --> 04:07:21,080
Speaker 2: federal employees furloughed? Is it tied more just to the

4124
04:07:21,160 --> 04:07:23,920
Speaker 2: fact that the FAA is not functioning the way it

4125
04:07:23,960 --> 04:07:27,080
Speaker 2: should be or used to as a result of changes

4126
04:07:27,120 --> 04:07:29,800
Speaker 2: the Trump administration made as soon as they came to power.

4127
04:07:30,560 --> 04:07:33,680
Speaker 2: I think it's too early to say that, but this

4128
04:07:33,920 --> 04:07:37,600
Speaker 2: is part of a pattern of pretty disastrous near misses

4129
04:07:37,680 --> 04:07:40,160
Speaker 2: that absolutely can be attributed to things like the air

4130
04:07:40,200 --> 04:07:42,920
Speaker 2: traffic controllers shortage and the fact that there's just a

4131
04:07:43,000 --> 04:07:46,960
Speaker 2: lot less safety precautions being taken. And this is something

4132
04:07:47,040 --> 04:07:50,320
Speaker 2: the administration is aware of and has become critical enough

4133
04:07:50,360 --> 04:07:53,400
Speaker 2: that they're no longer able to deny it. Secretary of

4134
04:07:53,440 --> 04:07:57,760
Speaker 2: Transportations Sean Duffy on Monday said that all commercial flights

4135
04:07:58,000 --> 04:08:02,240
Speaker 2: might be stopped nationwide to protect public safety, and they

4136
04:08:02,280 --> 04:08:05,280
Speaker 2: were certainly going to need to cut off flights in

4137
04:08:05,360 --> 04:08:08,000
Speaker 2: specific parts of the countries at times as a result

4138
04:08:08,040 --> 04:08:09,160
Speaker 2: of the ATC shortage.

4139
04:08:09,240 --> 04:08:09,360
Speaker 14: Right.

4140
04:08:09,640 --> 04:08:13,240
Speaker 2: Basically, there's different like k grids that the country is

4141
04:08:13,320 --> 04:08:15,320
Speaker 2: divided into, and you might have to shut down one

4142
04:08:15,400 --> 04:08:17,840
Speaker 2: or more of those at a time in order to

4143
04:08:18,000 --> 04:08:21,640
Speaker 2: make the shortage of air traffic controllers able to handle

4144
04:08:21,680 --> 04:08:22,680
Speaker 2: the rest of the load.

4145
04:08:23,120 --> 04:08:23,280
Speaker 24: Right.

4146
04:08:23,600 --> 04:08:25,720
Speaker 2: For an example of how bad this can get locally,

4147
04:08:25,840 --> 04:08:30,000
Speaker 2: on last Friday in New York State, eighty percent of

4148
04:08:30,160 --> 04:08:32,320
Speaker 2: air traffic controllers did not show up for work. So

4149
04:08:32,520 --> 04:08:35,640
Speaker 2: this is a potentially pretty calamitous problem. There have been

4150
04:08:35,680 --> 04:08:39,600
Speaker 2: ground delays on Monday for three major Texas airports in Austin,

4151
04:08:39,720 --> 04:08:43,280
Speaker 2: Dallas Fort Worth, and Dallas love Field. And this is

4152
04:08:43,400 --> 04:08:45,600
Speaker 2: just in general a problem that's only going to get

4153
04:08:45,680 --> 04:08:48,880
Speaker 2: worse as the shutdown looms. Because I've seen some interviews

4154
04:08:48,880 --> 04:08:51,360
Speaker 2: with air traffic controllers where like one guy was like, look,

4155
04:08:51,800 --> 04:08:53,920
Speaker 2: we're not getting medicine for my kid and she'll die

4156
04:08:54,040 --> 04:08:56,400
Speaker 2: without it. It's just not coming in. How do you

4157
04:08:56,440 --> 04:08:58,480
Speaker 2: expect me to be a fucking air traffic controller?

4158
04:08:58,960 --> 04:08:59,080
Speaker 30: Right?

4159
04:08:59,480 --> 04:09:02,480
Speaker 2: Like the herd job in the country that requires absolutely

4160
04:09:02,560 --> 04:09:05,600
Speaker 2: perfect concentration at all times without ever fucking up or

4161
04:09:05,720 --> 04:09:09,440
Speaker 2: hundreds of people die. So I don't know to answer

4162
04:09:09,480 --> 04:09:12,080
Speaker 2: the question of like, should you fly be planning flights

4163
04:09:12,120 --> 04:09:16,000
Speaker 2: for this holiday season, you should certainly get the flight

4164
04:09:16,080 --> 04:09:19,480
Speaker 2: and share its and be paying attention the days before

4165
04:09:19,680 --> 04:09:23,360
Speaker 2: as to what's happening if the shutdown doesn't end, because

4166
04:09:23,440 --> 04:09:26,160
Speaker 2: right now we are seeing delays the likes of which

4167
04:09:26,200 --> 04:09:28,800
Speaker 2: haven't really been seen since maybe like either like the

4168
04:09:28,880 --> 04:09:31,680
Speaker 2: pandemic probably before nine to eleven was kind of the

4169
04:09:31,760 --> 04:09:34,880
Speaker 2: last time things were this completely fucked. Garrison can tell

4170
04:09:34,880 --> 04:09:37,200
Speaker 2: you how much of a fucking nightmare they had coming back.

4171
04:09:37,520 --> 04:09:39,440
Speaker 2: And it's not just in the United States, by the way,

4172
04:09:39,840 --> 04:09:42,840
Speaker 2: multiple major airports in Europe over the last week and

4173
04:09:43,000 --> 04:09:46,680
Speaker 2: change have had to shut down entirely or partly because

4174
04:09:46,720 --> 04:09:50,200
Speaker 2: of unauthorized or unknown drone flights in their airspace.

4175
04:09:50,560 --> 04:09:53,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's been ongoing globally.

4176
04:09:53,960 --> 04:09:55,720
Speaker 2: Air travel is not doing well.

4177
04:09:57,880 --> 04:10:00,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, Rush has been probing Europe with these whole lands

4178
04:10:00,400 --> 04:10:03,280
Speaker 6: for a little while. Yeah, I think all I don't know,

4179
04:10:03,360 --> 04:10:06,080
Speaker 6: Roberts flowing Garrison. I have flown this month. It fucking sucks.

4180
04:10:07,360 --> 04:10:09,040
Speaker 6: Use a credit card if you can. When they had

4181
04:10:09,120 --> 04:10:12,560
Speaker 6: some protections. Maybe consider not flying right now.

4182
04:10:13,120 --> 04:10:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, just you know, keep an eye on things. I

4183
04:10:16,040 --> 04:10:17,040
Speaker 2: don't know what else to tell you.

4184
04:10:17,720 --> 04:10:21,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's great. Everything's going great. That is the slogan.

4185
04:10:21,320 --> 04:10:22,400
Speaker 6: Everything's going great.

4186
04:10:22,960 --> 04:10:24,800
Speaker 4: You know, there's been worse times.

4187
04:10:25,000 --> 04:10:26,000
Speaker 2: There's been worse times.

4188
04:10:26,080 --> 04:10:27,120
Speaker 27: Yeah, the blitz.

4189
04:10:27,520 --> 04:10:31,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, talking of worse times. Lots of people are hungry,

4190
04:10:31,800 --> 04:10:35,560
Speaker 6: right because we are. We're fucking with people's snap benefits

4191
04:10:35,640 --> 04:10:38,640
Speaker 6: now as part of the culture war. Lots of people

4192
04:10:38,680 --> 04:10:41,000
Speaker 6: are very worried about where their food is going to

4193
04:10:41,080 --> 04:10:43,520
Speaker 6: come from. Right, and we're entering a time of year.

4194
04:10:43,720 --> 04:10:45,760
Speaker 6: You know, kids are going to be off school. There's

4195
04:10:45,800 --> 04:10:47,880
Speaker 6: lots of places you can still get your free school meals,

4196
04:10:47,960 --> 04:10:50,360
Speaker 6: but it's a difficult time for people. It's difficult time

4197
04:10:50,360 --> 04:10:52,600
Speaker 6: for people to feed their families. I wanted to plug

4198
04:10:52,760 --> 04:10:56,000
Speaker 6: we All we got is San Diego Group. What they're

4199
04:10:56,120 --> 04:10:59,240
Speaker 6: doing is helping people be able to rely on them

4200
04:10:59,280 --> 04:11:01,240
Speaker 6: by delivering groceries to them right.

4201
04:11:01,480 --> 04:11:01,600
Speaker 1: Uh.

4202
04:11:01,800 --> 04:11:04,840
Speaker 6: And the way that they most need support is for

4203
04:11:04,960 --> 04:11:08,520
Speaker 6: people to sign up to regularly donate a certain amount.

4204
04:11:08,680 --> 04:11:10,240
Speaker 6: I'm not going to tell you how much you can donate,

4205
04:11:10,280 --> 04:11:12,240
Speaker 6: but if you're able to, that will give them the

4206
04:11:12,320 --> 04:11:15,280
Speaker 6: ability to plan to secure groceries for people they're supporting.

4207
04:11:16,000 --> 04:11:18,200
Speaker 6: The way you can find their website is to go

4208
04:11:18,440 --> 04:11:25,640
Speaker 6: to we all we got sd dot com slash donate. Also,

4209
04:11:25,880 --> 04:11:28,000
Speaker 6: if you want to reach out to us and you

4210
04:11:28,040 --> 04:11:29,920
Speaker 6: want to do it in an encrypted way, you could

4211
04:11:29,960 --> 04:11:33,440
Speaker 6: send an email from your proton mail address to our

4212
04:11:33,600 --> 04:11:36,920
Speaker 6: proton mail address, which is cool Zone Tips at proton

4213
04:11:37,000 --> 04:11:39,960
Speaker 6: dot me. If you're a marketing person and you want

4214
04:11:40,200 --> 04:11:44,040
Speaker 6: your client to be a guest on our podcast, don't

4215
04:11:44,080 --> 04:11:46,680
Speaker 6: email us. I'm just going to fucking block you. That's

4216
04:11:46,840 --> 04:11:48,960
Speaker 6: That's that's all I have to say about that. If

4217
04:11:49,000 --> 04:11:50,640
Speaker 6: you want to have to plug your product, I will

4218
04:11:50,680 --> 04:11:56,800
Speaker 6: also fucking block you. We've reported them, we reported the net.

4219
04:12:01,280 --> 04:12:04,400
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4220
04:12:04,480 --> 04:12:06,360
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

4221
04:12:07,160 --> 04:12:09,640
Speaker 32: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4222
04:12:09,840 --> 04:12:12,840
Speaker 32: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4223
04:12:12,960 --> 04:12:16,480
Speaker 32: Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4224
04:12:16,600 --> 04:12:20,160
Speaker 32: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

4225
04:12:20,240 --> 04:12:22,520
Speaker 32: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly

4226
04:12:22,600 --> 04:12:24,840
Speaker 32: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,