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Speaker 1: com slash Katiecuric. Hi, everyone, I'm Katiekuric, and this is
Speaker 1: next question. My guest today, Jada Pinkett Smith. She's one
Speaker 1: of the most herself people I've ever met. Of course,
Speaker 1: like any public figure, she's been scrutinized in the media
Speaker 1: and on social media, but she's always resisted labels and
Speaker 1: boxes that are so often imposed on her by other people.
Speaker 1: She's lost and found herself in the public eye more
Speaker 1: than once at this point, and she's learned some things
Speaker 1: about resilience and grit. She's got a new memoir out
Speaker 1: and it's called Worthy And in our interviews, she's here
Speaker 1: to bring us on our journey to self worth and
Speaker 1: to set the record straight on a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: rumors about her sexuality, her close friendship with Tupac Shakor
Speaker 1: before his tragic early death, and some painful and beautiful
Speaker 1: public moments with her life partner Will Smith. And yes,
Speaker 1: don't worry. We talk about what Jada calls the Holy
Speaker 1: Slap last year at the Oscars. We jump right into
Speaker 1: it in our interview because I just have to get
Speaker 1: into how she navigates all of this, especially being someone
Speaker 1: who people love to talk about endlessly.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy. Thank you, Yeah, how are you.
Speaker 3: It's so good to see you.
Speaker 2: Congratulations on your book.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: It's a big deal.
Speaker 1: It's like giving birth to another baby, right I know,
Speaker 1: it's my little.
Speaker 3: Baby going into the world in a little while.
Speaker 1: How does that make you feel? Are you scared? Are
Speaker 1: you nervous? Are you excited? What do you think is
Speaker 1: the overwriting emotion you're feeling right now?
Speaker 4: I definitely have a bit of anxiety, you know, And
Speaker 4: I think it's not so much about like the content,
Speaker 4: but you know, I just I want it's the intention.
Speaker 4: I'm just hoping that people get the intention of why
Speaker 4: I wrote the book, and I'm just hoping that it
Speaker 4: can be helpful. I just know on my journey it
Speaker 4: was so difficult, like finding stories from other women that
Speaker 4: I found relatable to my experience, you know, to just
Speaker 4: give me a little oxygen when I was in my sticky,
Speaker 4: challenging moments, you know. And so I'm just hoping that
Speaker 4: this could give little breadcrumbs, little oxygen, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 1: When you described the book sort of your thirty second
Speaker 1: elevator pitch, Jada, And of course we're going to talk
Speaker 1: a lot about what's in it.
Speaker 2: How would you describe it?
Speaker 4: I would describe it as, you know, a challenging journey
Speaker 4: to self worth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a woman's challenging journey to self worth.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to talk about that journey, but before
Speaker 1: we do, you know, I was thinking about you, Jada,
Speaker 1: and I've known you for a long time. I remember
Speaker 1: when you came on my talk show and you were
Speaker 1: very involved with, you know, stopping human trafficking. You were
Speaker 1: so eloquent and poised, and I really enjoyed talking to you,
Speaker 1: and you had a tremendous amount of depth and commitment
Speaker 1: to this issue. But you know, oh, Man, people sure
Speaker 1: love to talk smack about you, and people have such
Speaker 1: strong opinions about you. I mean really about everyone in
Speaker 1: this day and age, but you seem to be a
Speaker 1: particular lightning rod. And I'm wondering if you ever felt like,
Speaker 1: screw you people. I'm not going to give you more
Speaker 1: ammunition to attack me. And my life is none of
Speaker 1: your damn business.
Speaker 3: I think that.
Speaker 4: For me because I've been attacked so much, and because
Speaker 4: it really rolls off.
Speaker 3: Of my shoulder in a certain way now it does.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that's one of the beautiful parts about this
Speaker 4: journey of.
Speaker 3: Self worth is like you really like my.
Speaker 4: Identity of self worth and what self worth means to me?
Speaker 4: It has nothing to do or needs no validation from
Speaker 4: an outside source, right, And.
Speaker 3: I know who I am, and I think that.
Speaker 4: My belief is that a woman's journey is still considered
Speaker 4: so taboo to really really talk about it, right, And
Speaker 4: I felt like, man, I've earned that, meaning what else
Speaker 4: could people say about me?
Speaker 3: And here I am.
Speaker 4: My heart's still beating, I'm still breathing in oxygen, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean. And it's like I'm still standing
Speaker 4: and I know that most of what people talk about
Speaker 4: is really around a lot of misunderstanding, people really thinking
Speaker 4: that they know my story, and I got to take
Speaker 4: some responsibility around that that I have contributed to you
Speaker 4: know a lot of that misunder standing and false narrative.
Speaker 4: So and that this is all part of the human experience,
Speaker 4: but I really feel that it's important for those of
Speaker 4: us who can, as far as women, to share our
Speaker 4: authentic journeys. And I just feel like whatever, you know,
Speaker 4: it's like I have really been able to deal with
Speaker 4: my level of self judgment, and so anybody's judgment towards me,
Speaker 4: you know, it has no force because my self judgment
Speaker 4: is I won't say cured, but I definitely have a
Speaker 4: really beautiful management of it. And so I know who
Speaker 4: I am. Three and three you really share.
Speaker 1: I was going to say you really go there, which
Speaker 1: happened to be the title of my memoir that came
Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago, where I wanted to
Speaker 1: be very honest. But you are incredibly honest and vulnerable,
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how scary that was, And are there
Speaker 1: things that you kept to yourself in this world where
Speaker 1: we share so much, were there things that were almost
Speaker 1: sacred to you? That you didn't want to tell the
Speaker 1: world about.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to tell you here's what's interesting.
Speaker 4: As vulnerable and as open as I am in this book,
Speaker 4: it's scratching the.
Speaker 3: Surface, it really is.
Speaker 4: You know. It's like I kept I kept that close
Speaker 4: to the chest, you know, those things, And so I'm
Speaker 4: sharing the things that I'm comfortable with, you know, and
Speaker 4: you know some of the stuff. Though, I was more
Speaker 4: concerned about others than myself. I was concerned about my mom.
Speaker 4: You know, our journey together, and you know I she's come,
Speaker 4: She's come through her journey in such in such a
Speaker 4: beautiful way. But I know that rehashing things can be
Speaker 4: difficult and then having.
Speaker 3: It in print, you know.
Speaker 4: So I was really more concerned about others than myself.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your mom and your grandmother
Speaker 1: in a moment. But the opening pages are really riveting
Speaker 1: because you described Jada an extremely troubling scene that occurred
Speaker 1: a little over ten years ago. You found yourself considering
Speaker 1: ways you could take your own life and make it
Speaker 1: appear to be a fatal accident. Can you take us
Speaker 1: back to that moment and why you thought it was
Speaker 1: important to begin your book with that.
Speaker 4: I wanted to, well, first of all, I think that
Speaker 4: a huge part of my journey has been centered around
Speaker 4: mental health, honestly, you know.
Speaker 3: And I also.
Speaker 4: Wanted people to know from the gate, hey guys, we're
Speaker 4: about to take a deep dive, you know.
Speaker 3: And that was.
Speaker 4: Important to me. And that's really why I started there, because.
Speaker 3: That was set. I mean, that was a really difficult That.
Speaker 4: Was my bottom. Right. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna start
Speaker 4: you at the bottom, and then I'm gonna take you back,
Speaker 4: and then I'm going to bring you back to that moment,
Speaker 4: you know, and then I'm going to take you on
Speaker 4: the next journey from.
Speaker 1: That moment, you know, And I'm going to explain to
Speaker 1: you how I got to that moment, which was in
Speaker 1: your car, right, can you explain? I think it won't
Speaker 1: spoil anything because it is on the first few pages
Speaker 1: of the book.
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I mean, I just remember, I can't
Speaker 4: remember I was coming from.
Speaker 3: I think I was coming from somewhere.
Speaker 4: In I think I had a meeting or something, and
Speaker 4: I was literally driving home, and I just remember thinking
Speaker 4: I was just looking while I was driving, and it
Speaker 4: was a road that I had driven quite often, and
Speaker 4: I was like, you know what, I'm going to start
Speaker 4: checking out these clips. I really feel like I could
Speaker 4: make this look like an accident. I think this might
Speaker 4: be it. This might be the remedy here. And I
Speaker 4: remember pulling over and looking in all the different angles
Speaker 4: at which I could turn.
Speaker 3: My wheel and would I do.
Speaker 4: It at night when I do it during the day,
Speaker 4: getting out the car, saying if it was steep enough.
Speaker 4: And as morbid as it might sound, I remember feeling.
Speaker 3: More at ease because I had a plan.
Speaker 4: You know. Really, that wasn't the first time I had
Speaker 4: thought about Yeah, that wasn't the first time.
Speaker 3: And it was that it was just really important for
Speaker 3: me to.
Speaker 4: Find a way to make it look like an accident
Speaker 4: because of my kids.
Speaker 3: I didn't want my children to ever think.
Speaker 4: That I had committed suicide, you know, And that was
Speaker 4: really the most important part for me, you know, and
Speaker 4: it was one of the reasons why I was able
Speaker 4: to hold out for so long. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is the way that I can do it.
Speaker 1: You know, you had considered ending your life when you
Speaker 1: were in your twenties as well.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 4: I did, and that was the first time, and that
Speaker 4: was that happened in it. It was almost like it
Speaker 4: was like a nervous breakdown. It was like just an
Speaker 4: overwhelming amount of intense emotions just took over me at once,
Speaker 4: to the point that my body was shaken. I I
Speaker 4: kind of lost control of myself.
Speaker 3: And I remember getting home and calling my mother. I
Speaker 3: was like, you got to get out here.
Speaker 4: And my mother had to figure out, you know, how
Speaker 4: to get her job situation together, and she was she
Speaker 4: was I think my mother was only a year into
Speaker 4: her sobriety. And I called my girlfriend mc light. I
Speaker 4: was like, I cannot be left alone. I need you
Speaker 4: right now, and she got on the first plane to
Speaker 4: come out to be with me in LA until my
Speaker 4: mother could come.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And you know, I never and I talked about it
Speaker 4: in the book. From there, DeBie Allen got me a
Speaker 4: doctor who got me to psychiatrists that put me on
Speaker 4: some prozac to just stabilize me. And then I started
Speaker 4: therapy with the doctor that Debbie got me to and
Speaker 4: I got stabilized. But then I met Will and he
Speaker 4: became my new prozac.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like that idea of just like I'm good, you know,
Speaker 4: I got this new love in my life, but you know,
Speaker 4: I'm good. I don't need to worry about all of that,
Speaker 4: and so I abandoned. I kind of just dropped the
Speaker 4: ball on my mental health. But you know, at that time,
Speaker 4: nobody was talking about mental health in the way that
Speaker 4: we talk about it now.
Speaker 2: It's amazing, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody was talking about it, and so I kind
Speaker 4: of felt like, Okay, I spent a year.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm feeling good. I should be getting back
Speaker 3: to my life now.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, I really believe the increased awareness
Speaker 1: around mental health is vital. So I'm glad to share
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Speaker 1: licensed therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecurric. I'm
Speaker 1: so fascinated, Jada by what people experience as children and
Speaker 1: those wounds and that trauma and how it manifests itself
Speaker 1: later in life. And you spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: talking about your family, which is a very tender and
Speaker 1: nuanced to I think portrait, because there was a lot
Speaker 1: of good but a lot of really hard stuff you
Speaker 1: dealt with. You grew up in Baltimore. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit, Jada about your family situation about first
Speaker 1: about your mom, a little bit about your dad, and
Speaker 1: then I'm going to move on to your grandmother.
Speaker 2: Marian.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my mom, My mom had you know, she was
Speaker 3: a teen mom.
Speaker 4: She had me at seventeen, you know, and my grandmother
Speaker 4: insisted that she married my father, who was an addict
Speaker 4: and an alcoholic and a criminal, and.
Speaker 3: Two kids, you know, got married. They only stayed married
Speaker 3: for a year.
Speaker 4: My father was abusive, and thank goodness, my mother was
Speaker 4: you know, smart enough to just you know, they had
Speaker 4: an incident, a physical, violent incident, and that was it
Speaker 4: for her.
Speaker 3: She moved in.
Speaker 4: With my grandparents and I we basically lived with them
Speaker 4: off and on throughout my childhood.
Speaker 1: Your father, I think, told you when you were seven
Speaker 1: years old, I'm a drug addict and a criminal, so
Speaker 1: I can't be your father. And you described that moment
Speaker 1: as one of the most important lessons in your young life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it really taught me how to really embraced
Speaker 4: harsh truths.
Speaker 3: I have to tell you I was.
Speaker 4: I remember being so relieved that he told me the truth,
Speaker 4: right that He's like, whatever expectations you have of me,
Speaker 4: I mean, that's basically what you're saying. I'm not gonna
Speaker 4: be able to live up to the daddy thing, you know,
Speaker 4: And I at that age appreciated that.
Speaker 3: Now, as I got older, I got.
Speaker 4: To see how that affected how my level of self
Speaker 4: worth with men and in intimate relationships, you know. But
Speaker 4: that was when I got older. But at that particular time,
Speaker 4: because I didn't really have he wasn't really in my
Speaker 4: life in that way anyway, and I hadn't had had
Speaker 4: a father, I didn't even know what it actually was
Speaker 4: anyway to miss it. You know.
Speaker 3: It wasn't until my stepfather came into the picture that
Speaker 3: was like, oh, this is what a father is.
Speaker 4: You know. And then when that didn't, when he you know,
Speaker 4: left the premises, I really felt the loss of a
Speaker 4: father figure. Then.
Speaker 1: So you are basically living with your grandparents, Gilbert and
Speaker 1: Marian and your mom. Your dad is out of the picture,
Speaker 1: You're relieved, but your mom then runs into a lot
Speaker 1: of challenges.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my mother.
Speaker 4: Was a heroin addict, a high high, high functioning heroin addict,
Speaker 4: because she worked as a nurse and at times even
Speaker 4: was head of a woman's clinic in Baltimore at the
Speaker 4: high of her addiction. And so yeah, we definitely she
Speaker 4: definitely had a lot of challenges in regards to her addiction.
Speaker 1: How can you be a high functioning heroin addict.
Speaker 4: Yes, I've never seen that, but my mother, Yeah, she's
Speaker 4: a I've seen high functioning alcoholics, but I've never met
Speaker 4: a high functioning heroin addict.
Speaker 3: But she was that.
Speaker 4: I mean, when you see pictures of my mother in
Speaker 4: my teen years two throughout all the years, you would
Speaker 4: never know, you would never know, never know.
Speaker 2: But she got help.
Speaker 4: Once I was she would She was in and out
Speaker 4: of rehab during my teen years, and she finally I
Speaker 4: was twenty by the time my mother got clean.
Speaker 1: You talk about your grandmother, Marian, and you write whenever
Speaker 1: I think of my origin story, it's not really set
Speaker 1: on the streets of Baltimore. I think of Marian's garden.
Speaker 1: She was my mother's mother. Some of my earliest memories
Speaker 1: were formed at her side, out in her garden, learning
Speaker 1: powerful lessons I would use for the rest of my life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what did you learn from your grandmother? Oh man, how
Speaker 1: you can you know?
Speaker 4: My grandmother was a composter before that was a thing,
Speaker 4: you know, And how you can take fish heads and
Speaker 4: lemon peels, and you know, all of this garbage and
Speaker 4: put it into the earth and make some really great things,
Speaker 4: you know, help nourish the earth, you know, and how
Speaker 4: nothing is wasted. And that was a lesson for me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: She had this rose garden, and she loved these roses,
Speaker 4: and it was so amazing to me how these roses
Speaker 4: were so beautiful, but they had these really thick thorns,
Speaker 4: really thick thorns. And you know, just as I got
Speaker 4: older and recognizing like wow, how something so beautiful really
Speaker 4: understood how to set a boundary right and so right?
Speaker 4: How you have to set boundaries around all the treasures,
Speaker 4: all the beautiful treasures within yourself.
Speaker 3: And that's something I'm still learning to this day.
Speaker 1: Writing a book is a bit like therapy, And I'm
Speaker 1: curious if you have a better understanding of this turbulent
Speaker 1: childhood of yours and how it has manifested itself in
Speaker 1: the woman you became and are continuing to become.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my mom, and I has beautiful aha moments writing
Speaker 4: this book. You know, That's why it was so important
Speaker 4: for me to go into the history of my great
Speaker 4: grandmother to my grandmother, to my mother to myself, because
Speaker 4: you got to see this generational this line of trauma
Speaker 4: through us, all right, and how along the line, you know,
Speaker 4: how that generational trauma was getting healed along the way.
Speaker 4: And I think my mother seeing that line and being
Speaker 4: able to connect the dots.
Speaker 3: My mother got a lot.
Speaker 4: Of healing, and so did I in regards to why
Speaker 4: my mother might have reacted a certain way in certain
Speaker 4: aspects of my life, like when I got pregnant, needing
Speaker 4: me to be married, because.
Speaker 3: When she got pregnant, my grandmother demanded she get married,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 4: So how her her trauma from that experience just bled
Speaker 4: into so, you know, my experience, and that was really
Speaker 4: that was really eye opening for us. But this book,
Speaker 4: I got so much healing out of it, just being
Speaker 4: able to make peace with so many aspects of my life,
Speaker 4: deep in the peace because I thought I had.
Speaker 3: You know, once you write a book, you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I thought I dealt with that.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, actually, there's more stuff there that has
Speaker 4: to be looked at and dealt with.
Speaker 3: And I got the opportunity to do that.
Speaker 1: You know, when you were younger, why do you think
Speaker 1: you gravitated to the arts. And I'm wondering was that
Speaker 1: in response? Was it looking for some kind of fantasy
Speaker 1: world where you could take on a different role and
Speaker 1: be a different person and kind of get away from
Speaker 1: some of the things that were difficult.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, because I was I remember being three years
Speaker 4: old and playing the Wicked Witch of the West in
Speaker 4: nursery school and just loving it. I think I was
Speaker 4: born as an artist. And my grandmother, my grandmother, was
Speaker 4: an artist. She was an oil painter. Like my grandmother
Speaker 4: was a visual artist. She played the piano, she was
Speaker 4: an oil painter, she could sketch, she threw clay on
Speaker 4: the wheel. All of her kids are artists in a
Speaker 4: certain manner. My mother makes jewelry with silver. I mean,
Speaker 4: you name it, right, And so I think that we
Speaker 4: all kind of had that artistic bug. And my grandmother
Speaker 4: really cultivated my interests in the arts.
Speaker 3: So I had.
Speaker 4: To take tap dance, ballet, I had to take piano classes.
Speaker 3: All of it.
Speaker 4: I had to throw. I had to throw clay on
Speaker 4: the wheel. I had to learn how to arrange flow.
Speaker 4: So that's what my days were full of. Like I
Speaker 4: did not have a resting moment. Like on the weekends,
Speaker 4: I was up at eight and I was off to
Speaker 4: all these different classes. So I was as busy doing
Speaker 4: the weekend as I while I was doing the week day.
Speaker 1: So that's incredible, though, that she did that for you,
Speaker 1: that she opened up those avenues for you and encouraged
Speaker 1: you to explore all those things, and you have a
Speaker 1: very sweet story about being twelve and playing Dorothy and
Speaker 1: the rest of the OZ and boy, honestly, I would
Speaker 1: be so traumatized because I'm always terrified of forgetting things
Speaker 1: or being in a public place and having to remember
Speaker 1: something and then freezing or drawing a blank. And that
Speaker 1: happened to you when you were about to sing the
Speaker 1: signature song of that musical.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know, that was the moment I knew. I
Speaker 4: was like, Hey, I'm born to do this.
Speaker 1: Well, explain what happened and how you handled it, because honestly,
Speaker 1: I give you a lot of prompts for that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I was my whole my entire family
Speaker 4: was there and I am singing somewhere over the Rainbow,
Speaker 4: and in the middle of the song, I just forget
Speaker 4: and I look into the audience and I say, hey, guys,
Speaker 4: will you help me sing the song? I've forgotten the words?
Speaker 4: Will you sing along with me? And the audience is like,
Speaker 4: you know, and.
Speaker 5: So they join in and I pick up where I was, like, Okay,
Speaker 5: that's where we are, and start singing and we sing
Speaker 5: it together, and that was it. That was the finale,
Speaker 5: and everybody just enjoyed it so much, you know, and
Speaker 5: I was like, Okay, show must go on. That was
Speaker 5: the first professional moment that I had, And you know,
Speaker 5: it's like I.
Speaker 3: Just I was like, I was quick on my feet.
Speaker 1: What do you think that experience taught you? It seems
Speaker 1: to be a metaphor for life in a way, doesn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way, it's like, don't be afraid to
Speaker 4: ask for help even when it seems as though you should.
Speaker 4: You shouldn't be in that you're not in a position
Speaker 4: to or you shouldn't be in a position.
Speaker 3: To ask for help.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: It's like, that was the moment that I asked for help.
Speaker 4: And I'm the one who should have known the words,
Speaker 4: you know, but I didn't, and I got the help
Speaker 4: that I needed and it was a joy and we
Speaker 4: got through it together and we all left with a smile.
Speaker 3: So it's like, that's that's life right there.
Speaker 1: Ask for help and the people were happy to help you.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that's the other side of it, that this
Speaker 1: audience wasn't sitting in judgment.
Speaker 2: They were there to catch you as you were falling.
Speaker 4: Exactly, absolutely, So you know, that's what life is really
Speaker 4: about at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right
Speaker 1: after this. If you want to get smarter every morning
Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on
Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our
Speaker 1: daily newsletter, Wake Upcall by going to Katiecuric dot com.
Speaker 1: And we're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: as your career progressed, Debbie Allen was an incredibly important
Speaker 1: figure in your life. Talk to us about how you
Speaker 1: all joined forces, and I know she was a huge
Speaker 1: role model for you. Talk about sort of how your
Speaker 1: lives intersected.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 4: I went to audition for a Different World and it
Speaker 4: was just for a starring role.
Speaker 3: Was the character who it was a student who.
Speaker 4: Had contracted HIV and I went into audition and Debbie,
Speaker 4: she was like, I want to know more about you.
Speaker 4: Tell me a little bit about you. And I told
Speaker 4: her my life story. I said, you know, I'm from Baltimore,
Speaker 4: went to Baltimore School for the Arts, which is quite
Speaker 4: like fame, and I've always wanted to be like you
Speaker 4: and I'm actually going to be the next Debbie Allen
Speaker 4: and she cracked up, and you know, she just kept
Speaker 4: asking me questions and she said, you know what, I'm
Speaker 4: not going to give you the role you came into
Speaker 4: audition for. I'm going to write you. I'm going to
Speaker 4: make you a series regular. And she told me that
Speaker 4: in the room and I was like, what you know?
Speaker 4: And from then on she's just been one of my
Speaker 4: you know, she's just been like a mother to me.
Speaker 1: Honestly, what kind of advice has Debbie Allen giving you, Jada,
Speaker 1: when you've had these certain challenges in your life, or
Speaker 1: you know, controversies or people are ragging on you. I'm
Speaker 1: curious what she has told you through the years.
Speaker 4: You know what, Debbie doesn't pay attention to that stuff
Speaker 4: because Debbie's been in this business a long time and
Speaker 4: she knows that none of that matters. And Debbie rarely
Speaker 4: gives advice. Debbie checks in, you know, she checks in.
Speaker 4: She's like, are you good? Okay good?
Speaker 3: I need you.
Speaker 4: I want you to come to this thing. And I'm like, Debbie,
Speaker 4: all this stuff is going on, I don't care about
Speaker 4: none of that. You come and you spend some time
Speaker 4: with me. We're gonna be down here with these kids.
Speaker 4: I need you here to inspire these kids. Come on,
Speaker 4: we're not worried about these people. Now get on down here.
Speaker 4: Don't make me come get you.
Speaker 3: That's Debbie.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the Baltimore School for the Arts. You had
Speaker 1: a very special classmate in that school.
Speaker 3: Yes, I did, Tupac Tupac Shakur.
Speaker 1: You all were very close while you were in school. Yes,
Speaker 1: talk to us about that relationship, you know, I talk
Speaker 1: about it in the book. Is like the idea we were.
Speaker 3: Kind of not literal orphans, right.
Speaker 4: But the idea that we had single moms who were addicts,
Speaker 4: and so we really depended on each other to compensate
Speaker 4: for what was missing at home a bit. And that's
Speaker 4: really how we became such good friends. And we had
Speaker 4: another good friend actually happened to be uh my boyfriend
Speaker 4: at the time, John Cole. We were like the three
Speaker 4: Musks to us, and so Tupac and John were really close,
Speaker 4: and John and I were dating at the time, and
Speaker 4: so it was it was the three of us all
Speaker 4: the time, you know, And so it was it was
Speaker 4: a really magical time of my life. When he passed away,
Speaker 4: we weren't speaking. I would say that we were really young,
Speaker 4: and you know just how what life was presenting at
Speaker 4: that time in regards to what he was involved in
Speaker 4: and how I felt about it. And Pac and I
Speaker 4: were two very passionate people and very opinionated, passionate people,
Speaker 4: and so I would definitely say, and I talk about
Speaker 4: it in the book, and the idea that you know,
Speaker 4: don't if you have a conflict with someone that you
Speaker 4: love and you cherish, just rectify it as quickly as possible,
Speaker 4: because you know, you just never know, You just never know.
Speaker 4: I never expected that Pac would that you know, he
Speaker 4: would die. So we were young. I felt like he
Speaker 4: was invincible. You feel like you're invincible in your youth.
Speaker 4: So that's the last thing you're thinking about. And he
Speaker 4: had survived so much already. And to think he was
Speaker 4: just twenty five years old. He was a baby.
Speaker 3: He's the age of my son right now.
Speaker 1: Right, Let's talk about your career a little more, Jada.
Speaker 1: You went to Hollywood in the early nineties and you
Speaker 1: write about this being a special time for young black actors.
Speaker 1: Describe what the whole zeitgeist was like for young women
Speaker 1: and men like you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was it was like I call it the
Speaker 4: Golden Era. It's like you know, we had so much opportunity.
Speaker 4: Hollywood in a certain manner was so many doors were
Speaker 4: opening for our stories that had never been told before.
Speaker 4: Hip hop was on the rise to you know, coming
Speaker 4: into more of the what do you call it, commercial
Speaker 4: playing field.
Speaker 3: It wasn't underground anymore.
Speaker 4: You had so many stand up comics that were, you know,
Speaker 4: given the opportunity to have sitcoms, whether it was Martin
Speaker 4: or Will or you know, you had keenan Ivory WANs
Speaker 4: within Living Color. I mean, it was just so much
Speaker 4: of our like creativity that was given opportunity in Hollywood
Speaker 4: at that time. And that was the time that myself,
Speaker 4: Nia Long, Halle Berry, Regina King, we were all in
Speaker 4: the rooms together.
Speaker 3: And we were young, and we were hungry.
Speaker 4: And there was so much It was a lot of
Speaker 4: opportunity happening, and so there was like this level of
Speaker 4: like sisterhood and camaraderie that was just beautiful during that time.
Speaker 2: Sounds so exciting and fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was such an exciting time and it was
Speaker 4: so fun. You know, it was just like we were young, hungry, hot,
Speaker 4: and it was just happening.
Speaker 2: Are you still close to all those girls?
Speaker 3: You know, life is life does what life does.
Speaker 4: We hardly see each other, but when we do see
Speaker 4: each other, it's always love, it's always hugs, it's always grins,
Speaker 4: and you know, it is the memory of that time.
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, I talk about it in
Speaker 4: the book. You know, when Hallie won the Oscar, she
Speaker 4: gave homage to that era, right, she gave homage.
Speaker 3: To that era.
Speaker 2: And that was such a beautiful moment, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: And it's because of what that moment was. We were
Speaker 4: in it together, you know, we all came up in
Speaker 4: the game together and so and at that time, it
Speaker 4: was like, that was the attitude. If Halle got a role,
Speaker 4: we knew that Halle getting that role was ultimately going
Speaker 4: to open up doors for the rest of us. Right,
Speaker 4: So Halle's win is our win. Nia's win is my win,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Because it's just going to
Speaker 4: create more opportunity.
Speaker 3: And that is what she stepped up on that.
Speaker 4: Oscar stage with. It's like, I'm here, but I'm bringing
Speaker 4: y'all with me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you met Will Smith, I know a few times
Speaker 1: during those early years, but you're right that you all
Speaker 1: didn't officially get together until nineteen ninety five. When he
Speaker 1: called you the very week his divorce was final.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: You talk about falling for Will being a very unexpected
Speaker 1: thing for.
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, which I was surprised to read.
Speaker 1: Me falling for Will Smith was very unexpected from Afar
Speaker 1: And even after meeting him a couple of times in
Speaker 1: the Hollywood world, I concluded that Will Smith would never
Speaker 1: have been on my radar only because he was so cheerful.
Speaker 4: He was cheerful, that's right, Yeah, because street dudes aren't cheerful,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. So I'm like, nah, that's
Speaker 4: not really my vibration right there.
Speaker 3: But you know, don't judge a book by his cover.
Speaker 4: And what was it that turned you around? He was
Speaker 4: so I think my maturity honestly, and hadn't been through
Speaker 4: I you know, I talk about it in the book.
Speaker 4: I just had gone through just so much stuff. I
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, you need to try a
Speaker 4: different kind of guy, right, And Will was just so intelligent,
Speaker 4: and he's one of those people that can go from
Speaker 4: the hood to the White House and everything between.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: But it was really his intelligence coupled with his silliness.
Speaker 3: It was such a beautiful, you know, kind of balance.
Speaker 4: And I can be really you know, he's all sky too,
Speaker 4: such a big dreamer and everything he wants fun and
Speaker 4: I'm so like contemplative and you know, just just always
Speaker 4: in my head and in my thoughts, and he just
Speaker 4: had a way of like getting me out of there
Speaker 4: and teaching me how to have some fun and how
Speaker 4: to laugh.
Speaker 3: And so that's that's really what it was.
Speaker 1: But in a way, you lost yourself in the relationship,
Speaker 1: didn't you?
Speaker 3: As time went on?
Speaker 4: And I think it's really universal, you know, as women
Speaker 4: and just trying to figure out and being a young
Speaker 4: woman what does it mean to be a wife?
Speaker 3: What does it mean to be a mother? And really
Speaker 3: trying to figure.
Speaker 4: All that out along the way, and you know, really
Speaker 4: losing myself.
Speaker 3: Not that I came into the relationship with much.
Speaker 4: Of myself, to be honest with you, but I was
Speaker 4: definitely very challenged in that way.
Speaker 1: But how did that make you feel? I mean, how
Speaker 1: tough was that to navigate this feeling I don't know,
Speaker 1: subsumed by someone else's big personality and character and feeling
Speaker 1: like you're less than I think it must happen to
Speaker 1: a lot of Hollywood couples because it must be difficult
Speaker 1: to have two actors in a marriage, right.
Speaker 2: I don't know. It sounds like it would be hard
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 4: But you know what, it wasn't so much that dynamic, right.
Speaker 4: It wasn't so much of like needing you know that
Speaker 4: Will was this big persona and wanted this.
Speaker 3: You know, big career.
Speaker 4: Right. It was more of, Hey, that's okay too, but hey,
Speaker 4: let's quiet it down and let's get into more of
Speaker 4: the intimacy of family, right. And so it was really
Speaker 4: more of that than being challenged with having two actors
Speaker 4: in the household, because I didn't want I didn't want that.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be the biggest, you know, actress
Speaker 4: in the world.
Speaker 3: I was cool with that.
Speaker 4: All I wanted was like, hey, I want to have
Speaker 4: a beautiful family. So how do we figure out how
Speaker 4: to do both that you can be the biggest movie
Speaker 4: star in the world and we have a beautiful family.
Speaker 4: And so that was more of the challenge. And so
Speaker 4: our priorities were different, and.
Speaker 3: That was the challenge.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right
Speaker 1: after this. We're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. In this book, Jada,
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about rumors and speculation because I
Speaker 1: think when people don't I guess, share certain things, others
Speaker 1: will create their own narratives. Right, this is what they do.
Speaker 1: They just sort of project what they think on you.
Speaker 1: And you decided you were going to be honest and
Speaker 1: address some of these rumors head on. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've heard these rumors too through the years, and I'm
Speaker 1: always like, how do you know? And you know who cares?
Speaker 1: But you talk about these rumors that circulated forever that
Speaker 1: you were gay and why that happened? And you know,
Speaker 1: I do think these things get out in the world
Speaker 1: and then they snowball and then everyone says it. Then
Speaker 1: it becomes almost accepted fact. It's such a weird phenomenon.
Speaker 1: But why did you want to address that? And I mean,
Speaker 1: why don't you tell us what you write in the
Speaker 1: book about that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean because I was just like, let's just
Speaker 4: set the record straight in a certain manner, you know.
Speaker 4: And it was part it was part of my like
Speaker 4: youthful experience, you know, I talked about it in the book.
Speaker 4: I was like, absolutely had an experience with two women
Speaker 4: at different times, and and you know, I was like,
Speaker 4: this is spicier than spicier at two different times, and
Speaker 4: you know, in your youth.
Speaker 3: Just like you have options.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, all right, let me see if
Speaker 4: this is an option, and just realizing like, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 4: that's not quite my thing. You know, love women, just
Speaker 4: not in that way and just to that's part of
Speaker 4: the journey. So that's why it was just part of
Speaker 4: my my journey of coming into knowing who I am.
Speaker 2: But why do you think people are so obsessed with that?
Speaker 2: I mean, people are obsessed with everything, you know.
Speaker 3: People get so obsessed.
Speaker 4: With other people's lives because they don't want to pay
Speaker 4: attention to their own, you know, so I think that
Speaker 4: I think that people are always looking, you know, to
Speaker 4: just this looks too perfect, let's nitpick at it. And no,
Speaker 4: they're beards for each other. And you know, people are
Speaker 4: always people who are not happy, you know, want to
Speaker 4: degrade things, that's all. And it's okay, you know, it's
Speaker 4: no judgment and I've learned that on my journey not
Speaker 4: to judge it and just recognize not to take it personally.
Speaker 3: There's nothing to take personal.
Speaker 1: That's hard though, I mean, it's hard to get to
Speaker 1: that point, isn't it When people are you know, slinging
Speaker 1: all these.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4: I think now it's more annoying than hurtful. You know,
Speaker 4: it's just annoying. And I think thinking this in these times, honestly,
Speaker 4: people are having such difficulty, and I think people are
Speaker 4: just kind of acting out in different ways to just
Speaker 4: let off some steam that really has nothing to do
Speaker 4: with you or me.
Speaker 1: Rather, the other thing you set the record straight on, Jada,
Speaker 1: is this relationship you had that you call an entanglement,
Speaker 1: but you clarify in the book that it was not
Speaker 1: an affair. Honey, I don't know what that means. What
Speaker 1: is an entanglement?
Speaker 4: So it's it's a word that I actually came up
Speaker 4: with at the table, but it's actually a word that
Speaker 4: I heard a lot in all of my Buddhist readings.
Speaker 4: So you'll hear Jack Cornfield talk about it a lot.
Speaker 4: Right when I was listening to Jack, I was like, dag,
Speaker 4: is that where where I got it from from? Was
Speaker 4: it from Jack? And then when I read the Gita,
Speaker 4: the Gita talks about entanglements, right, and so they are
Speaker 4: these situations of confusion that we get involved in in
Speaker 4: the material world, so we can be entangled in ourselves.
Speaker 4: You know, arguments are entanglements, and you know, gossiping is
Speaker 4: a way that you can be entangled. And so that's
Speaker 4: how I looked at this particular situation. Was an entanglement,
Speaker 4: but it was not an affair, and so people really
Speaker 4: thought that entanglement was a new word for a fair
Speaker 4: Now you can use it. Absolutely, an affair can be
Speaker 4: an entanglement, for sure. It's just that my situation was
Speaker 4: not an affair. In the book, I talk about how
Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen, Will and I were not together. You know,
Speaker 4: we had gone our separate ways and we were both
Speaker 4: living separate lives and on our way to divorce.
Speaker 3: So we were done. That's it.
Speaker 1: And yet when he appeared on Red Table Talk, he
Speaker 1: seemed like the person who had been wronged.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what was so interesting, and that's why I
Speaker 4: love the Table so much. You really got to see
Speaker 4: a wounded dynamic between us both and an old story
Speaker 4: played out at that table. Because Will wasn't supposed to
Speaker 4: be at the table. I never asked him to come
Speaker 4: to the table, you know, how did that happen? Then
Speaker 4: he wanted to come to the table. He was like,
Speaker 4: I don't want you to be there alone. I don't
Speaker 4: want you to do this alone. And I was like,
Speaker 4: oh wow, I was actually surprised, and I was like,
Speaker 4: I thought that was a beautiful gesture. Once he came
Speaker 4: to the table and what happened happened, I kind of
Speaker 4: fell into my codependent martyrdom and I was like, I
Speaker 4: am going to take care of you by all means
Speaker 4: necessary because I see that you're not ready. And at
Speaker 4: the same time, Katie, I really wanted to I want
Speaker 4: it out of I had come to the table and
Speaker 4: I was going to go to the table because I
Speaker 4: was on my specific journey. So with what I had
Speaker 4: at that time, that's how I knew how to handle
Speaker 4: that situation, where I also being very forthright about my
Speaker 4: experience and not wanting shame. I wasn't going to walk
Speaker 4: in shame about that experience. But it was a very
Speaker 4: complicated moment. It was a very complicated moment, and we've
Speaker 4: done a lot of unpacking of that moment, to say
Speaker 4: the least.
Speaker 1: Well, I got to get to the slap because I
Speaker 1: wondered when you wrote this book, Jata, if you were
Speaker 1: wor that was what people really wanted to focus on.
Speaker 4: You know what, maybe I knew it was going to
Speaker 4: be a focus for sure, And of course it's been
Speaker 4: called the slap herd around the world.
Speaker 2: You refer to it as the Holy.
Speaker 3: Slap, the Holy slab, and the Holy lessons.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's fascinating to read your account of the
Speaker 1: events that you know took you a while to process it.
Speaker 1: Like everyone else watching, you weren't sure if there's a
Speaker 1: real slap or you know, what was going through your
Speaker 1: mind and how have you sort of come to terms
Speaker 1: with the whole thing.
Speaker 4: What was going through my mind was, like I talked
Speaker 4: about in the book, I I thought it was a skit,
Speaker 4: you know, I was. I was there as a family member,
Speaker 4: And there's a whole lot of history that go with
Speaker 4: this that you know in the book.
Speaker 2: With Chris and Will, history.
Speaker 4: With Will Chris, you know, emancipation and us going into therapy.
Speaker 3: But we weren't together, you know, we weren't hadn't been
Speaker 3: husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4: So I was there with him as a family member
Speaker 4: and not.
Speaker 3: Necessarily as his wife, but his life partner. And so.
Speaker 4: When it happened, it looked like Chris slipped the shot,
Speaker 4: and it looked like it was a skit, and then
Speaker 4: when Will turned around and walked back down the stage,
Speaker 4: that's when I realized, oh, something is going on here.
Speaker 4: But I still wasn't quite sure what was happening. And
Speaker 4: it wasn't until my publicist and Will's publicists came to
Speaker 4: our seats during the commercial break that Will's publicist said,
Speaker 4: you know, Chris is leaving the building, but he's not
Speaker 4: going to press charges. And I said, well, press charges
Speaker 4: for what? And she said, because Will hit Chris. And
Speaker 4: I looked to Will and I said, you.
Speaker 3: Hit Chris, You actually hit Chris.
Speaker 4: And he said yes, And that's when I knew. I
Speaker 4: was like, well, I'm his wife. Now we're going to
Speaker 4: get through this storm together. I knew it was going
Speaker 4: to be, you know, quite a journey.
Speaker 1: It was heartbreaking because it was such an important moment
Speaker 1: for Will. You know, it could have been a moment
Speaker 1: as he won the Oscar of Great Triumph, and yet
Speaker 1: he seemed to sabotage everything. And you say in the
Speaker 1: book you don't really want to explain his behavior, that
Speaker 1: that's his story to tell, absolutely, but have you come
Speaker 1: to any kind of understanding. I'm sure you all have
Speaker 1: discussed this and gone over it and tried to understand
Speaker 1: where that impulse came from.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we've we've talked about it.
Speaker 4: But like I said, that's you know, that's his journey,
Speaker 4: that's his journey.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't I wouldn't do a justice, I promise.
Speaker 1: How aggravating was it that so many people seem to
Speaker 1: direct their anger at you and focus on you? And
Speaker 1: what role did you have? And were you aging him?
Speaker 1: On and on and on and on.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's age old, it's so old.
Speaker 4: It's such an old, old, old story that it's the
Speaker 4: woman's fault when men behave on savory.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's not unique to me, and I
Speaker 3: wasn't surprised.
Speaker 1: We have to wrap things up, but before, just as
Speaker 1: the end, what is the nature of your relationship?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 2: Where are you right now in your relationship?
Speaker 4: Beautiful life partnership and just in the recognition that we
Speaker 4: want to share this lifetime together and.
Speaker 3: You know which you figuring out what that's going to
Speaker 3: look like?
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Worthy and Jada, I think
Speaker 1: you've done an incredible job of really being honest about
Speaker 1: not only your experience but the human experience in general.
Speaker 1: And when you look ahead, what are you most excited
Speaker 1: about after this.
Speaker 3: I am looking forward to going on a book tour.
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to that and looking forward to going
Speaker 4: out and talking to people and shaking hands and talking
Speaker 4: about the book and intimate group settings.
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1: Just sharing with others what you've learned in hopes of
Speaker 1: helping them or just you.
Speaker 4: Know, sharing the book and seeing people's thoughts and you know,
Speaker 4: and just getting out there and you know, having intimate
Speaker 4: conversations live.
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to do that.
Speaker 4: I've always wanted to take the Red Table, you know,
Speaker 4: out around to different cities, and now we're kind of doing.
Speaker 3: That, so you know, I'm kind of excited about that.
Speaker 1: So well, thank you for spending time with us. And
Speaker 1: the book again is called Worthy and Jade. I hope
Speaker 1: it's not ten plus years before I see you again.
Speaker 3: I know, but it's so good to see you. Really,
Speaker 3: it's wonderful to have this conversation today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: I have a good one.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone.
Speaker 1: If you have a question for me, a subject you
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