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Speaker 1: Whether it's family, work, health, money, life can be a lot,

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Speaker 1: of your first month when you go to talkspace dot

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Speaker 1: com slash Katiecuric. Hi, everyone, I'm Katiekuric, and this is

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Speaker 1: next question. My guest today, Jada Pinkett Smith. She's one

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Speaker 1: of the most herself people I've ever met. Of course,

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Speaker 1: like any public figure, she's been scrutinized in the media

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Speaker 1: and on social media, but she's always resisted labels and

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Speaker 1: boxes that are so often imposed on her by other people.

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Speaker 1: She's lost and found herself in the public eye more

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Speaker 1: than once at this point, and she's learned some things

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Speaker 1: about resilience and grit. She's got a new memoir out

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Speaker 1: and it's called Worthy And in our interviews, she's here

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Speaker 1: to bring us on our journey to self worth and

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Speaker 1: to set the record straight on a lot of stuff,

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Speaker 1: rumors about her sexuality, her close friendship with Tupac Shakor

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Speaker 1: before his tragic early death, and some painful and beautiful

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Speaker 1: public moments with her life partner Will Smith. And yes,

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Speaker 1: don't worry. We talk about what Jada calls the Holy

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Speaker 1: Slap last year at the Oscars. We jump right into

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Speaker 1: it in our interview because I just have to get

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Speaker 1: into how she navigates all of this, especially being someone

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Speaker 1: who people love to talk about endlessly.

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy. Thank you, Yeah, how are you.

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Speaker 3: It's so good to see you.

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Speaker 2: Congratulations on your book.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: It's a big deal.

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Speaker 1: It's like giving birth to another baby, right I know,

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Speaker 1: it's my little.

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Speaker 3: Baby going into the world in a little while.

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Speaker 1: How does that make you feel? Are you scared? Are

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Speaker 1: you nervous? Are you excited? What do you think is

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Speaker 1: the overwriting emotion you're feeling right now?

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Speaker 4: I definitely have a bit of anxiety, you know, And

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Speaker 4: I think it's not so much about like the content,

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Speaker 4: but you know, I just I want it's the intention.

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Speaker 4: I'm just hoping that people get the intention of why

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Speaker 4: I wrote the book, and I'm just hoping that it

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Speaker 4: can be helpful. I just know on my journey it

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Speaker 4: was so difficult, like finding stories from other women that

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Speaker 4: I found relatable to my experience, you know, to just

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Speaker 4: give me a little oxygen when I was in my sticky,

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Speaker 4: challenging moments, you know. And so I'm just hoping that

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Speaker 4: this could give little breadcrumbs, little oxygen, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean.

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Speaker 1: When you described the book sort of your thirty second

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Speaker 1: elevator pitch, Jada, And of course we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about what's in it.

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Speaker 2: How would you describe it?

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Speaker 4: I would describe it as, you know, a challenging journey

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Speaker 4: to self worth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a woman's challenging journey to self worth.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to talk about that journey, but before

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Speaker 1: we do, you know, I was thinking about you, Jada,

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Speaker 1: and I've known you for a long time. I remember

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Speaker 1: when you came on my talk show and you were

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Speaker 1: very involved with, you know, stopping human trafficking. You were

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Speaker 1: so eloquent and poised, and I really enjoyed talking to you,

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Speaker 1: and you had a tremendous amount of depth and commitment

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Speaker 1: to this issue. But you know, oh, Man, people sure

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Speaker 1: love to talk smack about you, and people have such

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Speaker 1: strong opinions about you. I mean really about everyone in

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Speaker 1: this day and age, but you seem to be a

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Speaker 1: particular lightning rod. And I'm wondering if you ever felt like,

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Speaker 1: screw you people. I'm not going to give you more

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Speaker 1: ammunition to attack me. And my life is none of

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Speaker 1: your damn business.

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Speaker 3: I think that.

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Speaker 4: For me because I've been attacked so much, and because

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Speaker 4: it really rolls off.

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Speaker 3: Of my shoulder in a certain way now it does.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because that's one of the beautiful parts about this

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Speaker 4: journey of.

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Speaker 3: Self worth is like you really like my.

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Speaker 4: Identity of self worth and what self worth means to me?

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Speaker 4: It has nothing to do or needs no validation from

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Speaker 4: an outside source, right, And.

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Speaker 3: I know who I am, and I think that.

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Speaker 4: My belief is that a woman's journey is still considered

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Speaker 4: so taboo to really really talk about it, right, And

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Speaker 4: I felt like, man, I've earned that, meaning what else

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Speaker 4: could people say about me?

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Speaker 3: And here I am.

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Speaker 4: My heart's still beating, I'm still breathing in oxygen, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean. And it's like I'm still standing

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Speaker 4: and I know that most of what people talk about

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Speaker 4: is really around a lot of misunderstanding, people really thinking

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Speaker 4: that they know my story, and I got to take

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Speaker 4: some responsibility around that that I have contributed to you

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Speaker 4: know a lot of that misunder standing and false narrative.

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Speaker 4: So and that this is all part of the human experience,

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Speaker 4: but I really feel that it's important for those of

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Speaker 4: us who can, as far as women, to share our

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Speaker 4: authentic journeys. And I just feel like whatever, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's like I have really been able to deal with

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Speaker 4: my level of self judgment, and so anybody's judgment towards me,

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Speaker 4: you know, it has no force because my self judgment

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Speaker 4: is I won't say cured, but I definitely have a

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Speaker 4: really beautiful management of it. And so I know who

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Speaker 4: I am. Three and three you really share.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say you really go there, which

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Speaker 1: happened to be the title of my memoir that came

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Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago, where I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be very honest. But you are incredibly honest and vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how scary that was, And are there

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Speaker 1: things that you kept to yourself in this world where

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Speaker 1: we share so much, were there things that were almost

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Speaker 1: sacred to you? That you didn't want to tell the

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Speaker 1: world about.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to tell you here's what's interesting.

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Speaker 4: As vulnerable and as open as I am in this book,

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Speaker 4: it's scratching the.

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Speaker 3: Surface, it really is.

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Speaker 4: You know. It's like I kept I kept that close

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Speaker 4: to the chest, you know, those things, And so I'm

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Speaker 4: sharing the things that I'm comfortable with, you know, and

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Speaker 4: you know some of the stuff. Though, I was more

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Speaker 4: concerned about others than myself. I was concerned about my mom.

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Speaker 4: You know, our journey together, and you know I she's come,

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Speaker 4: She's come through her journey in such in such a

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Speaker 4: beautiful way. But I know that rehashing things can be

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Speaker 4: difficult and then having.

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Speaker 3: It in print, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I was really more concerned about others than myself.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about your mom and your grandmother

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Speaker 1: in a moment. But the opening pages are really riveting

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Speaker 1: because you described Jada an extremely troubling scene that occurred

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Speaker 1: a little over ten years ago. You found yourself considering

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Speaker 1: ways you could take your own life and make it

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Speaker 1: appear to be a fatal accident. Can you take us

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Speaker 1: back to that moment and why you thought it was

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Speaker 1: important to begin your book with that.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to, well, first of all, I think that

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Speaker 4: a huge part of my journey has been centered around

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Speaker 4: mental health, honestly, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I also.

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Speaker 4: Wanted people to know from the gate, hey guys, we're

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Speaker 4: about to take a deep dive, you know.

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Speaker 3: And that was.

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Speaker 4: Important to me. And that's really why I started there, because.

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Speaker 3: That was set. I mean, that was a really difficult That.

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Speaker 4: Was my bottom. Right. It's like, Okay, I'm gonna start

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Speaker 4: you at the bottom, and then I'm gonna take you back,

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Speaker 4: and then I'm going to bring you back to that moment,

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Speaker 4: you know, and then I'm going to take you on

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Speaker 4: the next journey from.

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Speaker 1: That moment, you know, And I'm going to explain to

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Speaker 1: you how I got to that moment, which was in

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Speaker 1: your car, right, can you explain? I think it won't

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Speaker 1: spoil anything because it is on the first few pages

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Speaker 1: of the book.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I mean, I just remember, I can't

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Speaker 4: remember I was coming from.

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Speaker 3: I think I was coming from somewhere.

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Speaker 4: In I think I had a meeting or something, and

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Speaker 4: I was literally driving home, and I just remember thinking

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Speaker 4: I was just looking while I was driving, and it

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Speaker 4: was a road that I had driven quite often, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, you know what, I'm going to start

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Speaker 4: checking out these clips. I really feel like I could

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Speaker 4: make this look like an accident. I think this might

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Speaker 4: be it. This might be the remedy here. And I

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Speaker 4: remember pulling over and looking in all the different angles

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Speaker 4: at which I could turn.

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Speaker 3: My wheel and would I do.

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Speaker 4: It at night when I do it during the day,

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Speaker 4: getting out the car, saying if it was steep enough.

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Speaker 4: And as morbid as it might sound, I remember feeling.

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Speaker 3: More at ease because I had a plan.

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Speaker 4: You know. Really, that wasn't the first time I had

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Speaker 4: thought about Yeah, that wasn't the first time.

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Speaker 3: And it was that it was just really important for

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Speaker 3: me to.

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Speaker 4: Find a way to make it look like an accident

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Speaker 4: because of my kids.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want my children to ever think.

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Speaker 4: That I had committed suicide, you know, And that was

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Speaker 4: really the most important part for me, you know, and

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Speaker 4: it was one of the reasons why I was able

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Speaker 4: to hold out for so long. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is the way that I can do it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you had considered ending your life when you

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Speaker 1: were in your twenties as well.

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 4: I did, and that was the first time, and that

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Speaker 4: was that happened in it. It was almost like it

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Speaker 4: was like a nervous breakdown. It was like just an

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Speaker 4: overwhelming amount of intense emotions just took over me at once,

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Speaker 4: to the point that my body was shaken. I I

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Speaker 4: kind of lost control of myself.

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Speaker 3: And I remember getting home and calling my mother. I

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Speaker 3: was like, you got to get out here.

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Speaker 4: And my mother had to figure out, you know, how

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Speaker 4: to get her job situation together, and she was she

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Speaker 4: was I think my mother was only a year into

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Speaker 4: her sobriety. And I called my girlfriend mc light. I

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Speaker 4: was like, I cannot be left alone. I need you

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Speaker 4: right now, and she got on the first plane to

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Speaker 4: come out to be with me in LA until my

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Speaker 4: mother could come.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I never and I talked about it

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Speaker 4: in the book. From there, DeBie Allen got me a

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Speaker 4: doctor who got me to psychiatrists that put me on

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Speaker 4: some prozac to just stabilize me. And then I started

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Speaker 4: therapy with the doctor that Debbie got me to and

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Speaker 4: I got stabilized. But then I met Will and he

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Speaker 4: became my new prozac.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like that idea of just like I'm good, you know,

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Speaker 4: I got this new love in my life, but you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm good. I don't need to worry about all of that,

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Speaker 4: and so I abandoned. I kind of just dropped the

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Speaker 4: ball on my mental health. But you know, at that time,

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Speaker 4: nobody was talking about mental health in the way that

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Speaker 4: we talk about it now.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody was talking about it, and so I kind

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Speaker 4: of felt like, Okay, I spent a year.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm feeling good. I should be getting back

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Speaker 3: to my life now.

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Speaker 1: You know, you know, I really believe the increased awareness

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Speaker 1: around mental health is vital. So I'm glad to share

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Speaker 1: a message with all of you from our partners at Talkspace.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever thought should I be in therapy? The

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Speaker 1: answer is definitely yes. I say that because almost anyone

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Speaker 1: can benefit from therapy, whether you're struggling with big challenges

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Speaker 1: or simply want to talk to a trained professional who

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Speaker 1: will give you some perspective. But if you think you

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Speaker 1: don't have the time or money for therapy, I have

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Speaker 1: the solution Talkspace. Register at talkspace dot com and be

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Speaker 1: matched with a licensed therapist within days. You'll do virtual

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Speaker 1: video or audio appointments. Message back and forth with your

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Speaker 1: therapist or both. No need to take time off or

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Speaker 1: get childcare. This is therapy wherever, whenever works best for you. Plus,

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Speaker 1: talkspace is in network with major insurers and they'll build

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Speaker 1: your plan directly. Most insured members only pay a twenty

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Speaker 1: five dollars cope often less. No insurance, no problem. Now

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Speaker 1: get eighty dollars off of your first month when you

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Speaker 1: go to talkspace dot com slash Katiecurric Match with a

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Speaker 1: licensed therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecurric. I'm

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Speaker 1: so fascinated, Jada by what people experience as children and

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Speaker 1: those wounds and that trauma and how it manifests itself

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Speaker 1: later in life. And you spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: talking about your family, which is a very tender and

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Speaker 1: nuanced to I think portrait, because there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of good but a lot of really hard stuff you

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Speaker 1: dealt with. You grew up in Baltimore. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit, Jada about your family situation about first

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Speaker 1: about your mom, a little bit about your dad, and

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to move on to your grandmother.

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Speaker 2: Marian.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my mom, My mom had you know, she was

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Speaker 3: a teen mom.

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Speaker 4: She had me at seventeen, you know, and my grandmother

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Speaker 4: insisted that she married my father, who was an addict

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Speaker 4: and an alcoholic and a criminal, and.

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Speaker 3: Two kids, you know, got married. They only stayed married

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Speaker 3: for a year.

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Speaker 4: My father was abusive, and thank goodness, my mother was

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Speaker 4: you know, smart enough to just you know, they had

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Speaker 4: an incident, a physical, violent incident, and that was it

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Speaker 4: for her.

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Speaker 3: She moved in.

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Speaker 4: With my grandparents and I we basically lived with them

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Speaker 4: off and on throughout my childhood.

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Speaker 1: Your father, I think, told you when you were seven

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Speaker 1: years old, I'm a drug addict and a criminal, so

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Speaker 1: I can't be your father. And you described that moment

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Speaker 1: as one of the most important lessons in your young life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so it really taught me how to really embraced

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Speaker 4: harsh truths.

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Speaker 3: I have to tell you I was.

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Speaker 4: I remember being so relieved that he told me the truth,

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Speaker 4: right that He's like, whatever expectations you have of me,

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's basically what you're saying. I'm not gonna

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Speaker 4: be able to live up to the daddy thing, you know,

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Speaker 4: And I at that age appreciated that.

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Speaker 3: Now, as I got older, I got.

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Speaker 4: To see how that affected how my level of self

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Speaker 4: worth with men and in intimate relationships, you know. But

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Speaker 4: that was when I got older. But at that particular time,

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Speaker 4: because I didn't really have he wasn't really in my

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Speaker 4: life in that way anyway, and I hadn't had had

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Speaker 4: a father, I didn't even know what it actually was

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Speaker 4: anyway to miss it. You know.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until my stepfather came into the picture that

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, this is what a father is.

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Speaker 4: You know. And then when that didn't, when he you know,

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Speaker 4: left the premises, I really felt the loss of a

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Speaker 4: father figure. Then.

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Speaker 1: So you are basically living with your grandparents, Gilbert and

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Speaker 1: Marian and your mom. Your dad is out of the picture,

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Speaker 1: You're relieved, but your mom then runs into a lot

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Speaker 1: of challenges.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my mother.

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Speaker 4: Was a heroin addict, a high high, high functioning heroin addict,

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Speaker 4: because she worked as a nurse and at times even

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Speaker 4: was head of a woman's clinic in Baltimore at the

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Speaker 4: high of her addiction. And so yeah, we definitely she

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Speaker 4: definitely had a lot of challenges in regards to her addiction.

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Speaker 1: How can you be a high functioning heroin addict.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I've never seen that, but my mother, Yeah, she's

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Speaker 4: a I've seen high functioning alcoholics, but I've never met

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Speaker 4: a high functioning heroin addict.

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Speaker 3: But she was that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, when you see pictures of my mother in

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Speaker 4: my teen years two throughout all the years, you would

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Speaker 4: never know, you would never know, never know.

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Speaker 2: But she got help.

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Speaker 4: Once I was she would She was in and out

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Speaker 4: of rehab during my teen years, and she finally I

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Speaker 4: was twenty by the time my mother got clean.

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Speaker 1: You talk about your grandmother, Marian, and you write whenever

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Speaker 1: I think of my origin story, it's not really set

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Speaker 1: on the streets of Baltimore. I think of Marian's garden.

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Speaker 1: She was my mother's mother. Some of my earliest memories

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Speaker 1: were formed at her side, out in her garden, learning

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Speaker 1: powerful lessons I would use for the rest of my life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what did you learn from your grandmother? Oh man, how

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Speaker 1: you can you know?

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Speaker 4: My grandmother was a composter before that was a thing,

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Speaker 4: you know, And how you can take fish heads and

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Speaker 4: lemon peels, and you know, all of this garbage and

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Speaker 4: put it into the earth and make some really great things,

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Speaker 4: you know, help nourish the earth, you know, and how

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Speaker 4: nothing is wasted. And that was a lesson for me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: She had this rose garden, and she loved these roses,

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Speaker 4: and it was so amazing to me how these roses

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Speaker 4: were so beautiful, but they had these really thick thorns,

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Speaker 4: really thick thorns. And you know, just as I got

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Speaker 4: older and recognizing like wow, how something so beautiful really

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Speaker 4: understood how to set a boundary right and so right?

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Speaker 4: How you have to set boundaries around all the treasures,

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Speaker 4: all the beautiful treasures within yourself.

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Speaker 3: And that's something I'm still learning to this day.

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Speaker 1: Writing a book is a bit like therapy, And I'm

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Speaker 1: curious if you have a better understanding of this turbulent

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Speaker 1: childhood of yours and how it has manifested itself in

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Speaker 1: the woman you became and are continuing to become.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my mom, and I has beautiful aha moments writing

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Speaker 4: this book. You know, That's why it was so important

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Speaker 4: for me to go into the history of my great

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Speaker 4: grandmother to my grandmother, to my mother to myself, because

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Speaker 4: you got to see this generational this line of trauma

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Speaker 4: through us, all right, and how along the line, you know,

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Speaker 4: how that generational trauma was getting healed along the way.

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Speaker 4: And I think my mother seeing that line and being

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Speaker 4: able to connect the dots.

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Speaker 3: My mother got a lot.

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Speaker 4: Of healing, and so did I in regards to why

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Speaker 4: my mother might have reacted a certain way in certain

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Speaker 4: aspects of my life, like when I got pregnant, needing

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Speaker 4: me to be married, because.

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Speaker 3: When she got pregnant, my grandmother demanded she get married,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: So how her her trauma from that experience just bled

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Speaker 4: into so, you know, my experience, and that was really

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Speaker 4: that was really eye opening for us. But this book,

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Speaker 4: I got so much healing out of it, just being

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Speaker 4: able to make peace with so many aspects of my life,

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Speaker 4: deep in the peace because I thought I had.

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Speaker 3: You know, once you write a book, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I thought I dealt with that.

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Speaker 4: It's like, oh, actually, there's more stuff there that has

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Speaker 4: to be looked at and dealt with.

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Speaker 3: And I got the opportunity to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you were younger, why do you think

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Speaker 1: you gravitated to the arts. And I'm wondering was that

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Speaker 1: in response? Was it looking for some kind of fantasy

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Speaker 1: world where you could take on a different role and

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Speaker 1: be a different person and kind of get away from

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Speaker 1: some of the things that were difficult.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, because I was I remember being three years

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Speaker 4: old and playing the Wicked Witch of the West in

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Speaker 4: nursery school and just loving it. I think I was

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Speaker 4: born as an artist. And my grandmother, my grandmother, was

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Speaker 4: an artist. She was an oil painter. Like my grandmother

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Speaker 4: was a visual artist. She played the piano, she was

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Speaker 4: an oil painter, she could sketch, she threw clay on

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Speaker 4: the wheel. All of her kids are artists in a

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Speaker 4: certain manner. My mother makes jewelry with silver. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you name it, right, And so I think that we

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Speaker 4: all kind of had that artistic bug. And my grandmother

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Speaker 4: really cultivated my interests in the arts.

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Speaker 3: So I had.

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Speaker 4: To take tap dance, ballet, I had to take piano classes.

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Speaker 3: All of it.

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Speaker 4: I had to throw. I had to throw clay on

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Speaker 4: the wheel. I had to learn how to arrange flow.

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Speaker 4: So that's what my days were full of. Like I

400
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Speaker 4: did not have a resting moment. Like on the weekends,

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Speaker 4: I was up at eight and I was off to

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Speaker 4: all these different classes. So I was as busy doing

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Speaker 4: the weekend as I while I was doing the week day.

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Speaker 1: So that's incredible, though, that she did that for you,

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Speaker 1: that she opened up those avenues for you and encouraged

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Speaker 1: you to explore all those things, and you have a

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Speaker 1: very sweet story about being twelve and playing Dorothy and

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Speaker 1: the rest of the OZ and boy, honestly, I would

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Speaker 1: be so traumatized because I'm always terrified of forgetting things

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Speaker 1: or being in a public place and having to remember

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Speaker 1: something and then freezing or drawing a blank. And that

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Speaker 1: happened to you when you were about to sing the

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Speaker 1: signature song of that musical.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know, that was the moment I knew. I

415
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Speaker 4: was like, Hey, I'm born to do this.

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Speaker 1: Well, explain what happened and how you handled it, because honestly,

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Speaker 1: I give you a lot of prompts for that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I was my whole my entire family

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Speaker 4: was there and I am singing somewhere over the Rainbow,

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Speaker 4: and in the middle of the song, I just forget

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Speaker 4: and I look into the audience and I say, hey, guys,

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Speaker 4: will you help me sing the song? I've forgotten the words?

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Speaker 4: Will you sing along with me? And the audience is like,

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Speaker 4: you know, and.

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Speaker 5: So they join in and I pick up where I was, like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: that's where we are, and start singing and we sing

427
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 5: it together, and that was it. That was the finale,

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Speaker 5: and everybody just enjoyed it so much, you know, and

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Speaker 5: I was like, Okay, show must go on. That was

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Speaker 5: the first professional moment that I had, And you know,

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Speaker 5: it's like I.

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Speaker 3: Just I was like, I was quick on my feet.

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Speaker 1: What do you think that experience taught you? It seems

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Speaker 1: to be a metaphor for life in a way, doesn't it.

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00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way, it's like, don't be afraid to

436
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 4: ask for help even when it seems as though you should.

437
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: You shouldn't be in that you're not in a position

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Speaker 4: to or you shouldn't be in a position.

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00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: To ask for help.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's like, that was the moment that I asked for help.

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Speaker 4: And I'm the one who should have known the words,

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Speaker 4: you know, but I didn't, and I got the help

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Speaker 4: that I needed and it was a joy and we

445
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 4: got through it together and we all left with a smile.

446
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: So it's like, that's that's life right there.

447
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: Ask for help and the people were happy to help you.

448
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 4: You know.

449
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: I think that's the other side of it, that this

450
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: audience wasn't sitting in judgment.

451
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: They were there to catch you as you were falling.

452
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: Exactly, absolutely, So you know, that's what life is really

453
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 4: about at the end of the day.

454
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right

455
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: after this. If you want to get smarter every morning

456
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on

457
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our

458
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: daily newsletter, Wake Upcall by going to Katiecuric dot com.

459
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: And we're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. Let's talk about

460
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: as your career progressed, Debbie Allen was an incredibly important

461
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: figure in your life. Talk to us about how you

462
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: all joined forces, and I know she was a huge

463
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: role model for you. Talk about sort of how your

464
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: lives intersected.

465
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: Well.

466
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 4: I went to audition for a Different World and it

467
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 4: was just for a starring role.

468
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: Was the character who it was a student who.

469
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: Had contracted HIV and I went into audition and Debbie,

470
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 4: she was like, I want to know more about you.

471
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: Tell me a little bit about you. And I told

472
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 4: her my life story. I said, you know, I'm from Baltimore,

473
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 4: went to Baltimore School for the Arts, which is quite

474
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: like fame, and I've always wanted to be like you

475
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 4: and I'm actually going to be the next Debbie Allen

476
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 4: and she cracked up, and you know, she just kept

477
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 4: asking me questions and she said, you know what, I'm

478
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 4: not going to give you the role you came into

479
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 4: audition for. I'm going to write you. I'm going to

480
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 4: make you a series regular. And she told me that

481
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 4: in the room and I was like, what you know?

482
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 4: And from then on she's just been one of my

483
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: you know, she's just been like a mother to me.

484
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: Honestly, what kind of advice has Debbie Allen giving you, Jada,

485
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: when you've had these certain challenges in your life, or

486
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, controversies or people are ragging on you. I'm

487
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: curious what she has told you through the years.

488
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: You know what, Debbie doesn't pay attention to that stuff

489
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 4: because Debbie's been in this business a long time and

490
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 4: she knows that none of that matters. And Debbie rarely

491
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 4: gives advice. Debbie checks in, you know, she checks in.

492
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: She's like, are you good? Okay good?

493
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 3: I need you.

494
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 4: I want you to come to this thing. And I'm like, Debbie,

495
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: all this stuff is going on, I don't care about

496
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 4: none of that. You come and you spend some time

497
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 4: with me. We're gonna be down here with these kids.

498
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 4: I need you here to inspire these kids. Come on,

499
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: we're not worried about these people. Now get on down here.

500
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 4: Don't make me come get you.

501
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: That's Debbie.

502
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned the Baltimore School for the Arts. You had

503
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: a very special classmate in that school.

504
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 3: Yes, I did, Tupac Tupac Shakur.

505
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: You all were very close while you were in school. Yes,

506
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: talk to us about that relationship, you know, I talk

507
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: about it in the book. Is like the idea we were.

508
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: Kind of not literal orphans, right.

509
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 4: But the idea that we had single moms who were addicts,

510
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 4: and so we really depended on each other to compensate

511
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 4: for what was missing at home a bit. And that's

512
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 4: really how we became such good friends. And we had

513
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 4: another good friend actually happened to be uh my boyfriend

514
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: at the time, John Cole. We were like the three

515
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: Musks to us, and so Tupac and John were really close,

516
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 4: and John and I were dating at the time, and

517
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 4: so it was it was the three of us all

518
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 4: the time, you know, And so it was it was

519
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: a really magical time of my life. When he passed away,

520
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: we weren't speaking. I would say that we were really young,

521
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 4: and you know just how what life was presenting at

522
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 4: that time in regards to what he was involved in

523
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 4: and how I felt about it. And Pac and I

524
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 4: were two very passionate people and very opinionated, passionate people,

525
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 4: and so I would definitely say, and I talk about

526
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: it in the book, and the idea that you know,

527
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 4: don't if you have a conflict with someone that you

528
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 4: love and you cherish, just rectify it as quickly as possible,

529
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 4: because you know, you just never know, You just never know.

530
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: I never expected that Pac would that you know, he

531
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 4: would die. So we were young. I felt like he

532
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: was invincible. You feel like you're invincible in your youth.

533
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 4: So that's the last thing you're thinking about. And he

534
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 4: had survived so much already. And to think he was

535
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 4: just twenty five years old. He was a baby.

536
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: He's the age of my son right now.

537
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Right, Let's talk about your career a little more, Jada.

538
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: You went to Hollywood in the early nineties and you

539
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: write about this being a special time for young black actors.

540
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: Describe what the whole zeitgeist was like for young women

541
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: and men like you.

542
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was it was like I call it the

543
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 4: Golden Era. It's like you know, we had so much opportunity.

544
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 4: Hollywood in a certain manner was so many doors were

545
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 4: opening for our stories that had never been told before.

546
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 4: Hip hop was on the rise to you know, coming

547
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 4: into more of the what do you call it, commercial

548
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 4: playing field.

549
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 3: It wasn't underground anymore.

550
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 4: You had so many stand up comics that were, you know,

551
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 4: given the opportunity to have sitcoms, whether it was Martin

552
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 4: or Will or you know, you had keenan Ivory WANs

553
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 4: within Living Color. I mean, it was just so much

554
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 4: of our like creativity that was given opportunity in Hollywood

555
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: at that time. And that was the time that myself,

556
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 4: Nia Long, Halle Berry, Regina King, we were all in

557
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 4: the rooms together.

558
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: And we were young, and we were hungry.

559
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: And there was so much It was a lot of

560
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 4: opportunity happening, and so there was like this level of

561
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,439
Speaker 4: like sisterhood and camaraderie that was just beautiful during that time.

562
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: Sounds so exciting and fun.

563
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was such an exciting time and it was

564
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 4: so fun. You know, it was just like we were young, hungry, hot,

565
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 4: and it was just happening.

566
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: Are you still close to all those girls?

567
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: You know, life is life does what life does.

568
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: We hardly see each other, but when we do see

569
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 4: each other, it's always love, it's always hugs, it's always grins,

570
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 4: and you know, it is the memory of that time.

571
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, I talk about it in

572
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 4: the book. You know, when Hallie won the Oscar, she

573
00:35:54,960 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 4: gave homage to that era, right, she gave homage.

574
00:35:59,480 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 3: To that era.

575
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: And that was such a beautiful moment, wasn't it.

576
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

577
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 4: And it's because of what that moment was. We were

578
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 4: in it together, you know, we all came up in

579
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 4: the game together and so and at that time, it

580
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 4: was like, that was the attitude. If Halle got a role,

581
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 4: we knew that Halle getting that role was ultimately going

582
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 4: to open up doors for the rest of us. Right,

583
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 4: So Halle's win is our win. Nia's win is my win,

584
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Because it's just going to

585
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 4: create more opportunity.

586
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 3: And that is what she stepped up on that.

587
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 4: Oscar stage with. It's like, I'm here, but I'm bringing

588
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: y'all with me.

589
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you met Will Smith, I know a few times

590
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: during those early years, but you're right that you all

591
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: didn't officially get together until nineteen ninety five. When he

592
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: called you the very week his divorce was final.

593
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: Right.

594
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: You talk about falling for Will being a very unexpected

595
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: thing for.

596
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, which I was surprised to read.

597
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: Me falling for Will Smith was very unexpected from Afar

598
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: And even after meeting him a couple of times in

599
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: the Hollywood world, I concluded that Will Smith would never

600
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: have been on my radar only because he was so cheerful.

601
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 4: He was cheerful, that's right, Yeah, because street dudes aren't cheerful,

602
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. So I'm like, nah, that's

603
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 4: not really my vibration right there.

604
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: But you know, don't judge a book by his cover.

605
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 4: And what was it that turned you around? He was

606
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: so I think my maturity honestly, and hadn't been through

607
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 4: I you know, I talk about it in the book.

608
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: I just had gone through just so much stuff. I

609
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, you need to try a

610
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 4: different kind of guy, right, And Will was just so intelligent,

611
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 4: and he's one of those people that can go from

612
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: the hood to the White House and everything between.

613
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Right.

614
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 4: But it was really his intelligence coupled with his silliness.

615
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: It was such a beautiful, you know, kind of balance.

616
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 4: And I can be really you know, he's all sky too,

617
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 4: such a big dreamer and everything he wants fun and

618
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 4: I'm so like contemplative and you know, just just always

619
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 4: in my head and in my thoughts, and he just

620
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 4: had a way of like getting me out of there

621
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 4: and teaching me how to have some fun and how

622
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: to laugh.

623
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 3: And so that's that's really what it was.

624
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: But in a way, you lost yourself in the relationship,

625
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: didn't you?

626
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 3: As time went on?

627
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 4: And I think it's really universal, you know, as women

628
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 4: and just trying to figure out and being a young

629
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 4: woman what does it mean to be a wife?

630
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: What does it mean to be a mother? And really

631
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: trying to figure.

632
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: All that out along the way, and you know, really

633
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 4: losing myself.

634
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: Not that I came into the relationship with much.

635
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 4: Of myself, to be honest with you, but I was

636
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 4: definitely very challenged in that way.

637
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: But how did that make you feel? I mean, how

638
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: tough was that to navigate this feeling I don't know,

639
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: subsumed by someone else's big personality and character and feeling

640
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: like you're less than I think it must happen to

641
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: a lot of Hollywood couples because it must be difficult

642
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: to have two actors in a marriage, right.

643
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 2: I don't know. It sounds like it would be hard

644
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: to me.

645
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 4: But you know what, it wasn't so much that dynamic, right.

646
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 4: It wasn't so much of like needing you know that

647
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 4: Will was this big persona and wanted this.

648
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: You know, big career.

649
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 4: Right. It was more of, Hey, that's okay too, but hey,

650
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: let's quiet it down and let's get into more of

651
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 4: the intimacy of family, right. And so it was really

652
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 4: more of that than being challenged with having two actors

653
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 4: in the household, because I didn't want I didn't want that.

654
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be the biggest, you know, actress

655
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 4: in the world.

656
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: I was cool with that.

657
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 4: All I wanted was like, hey, I want to have

658
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 4: a beautiful family. So how do we figure out how

659
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 4: to do both that you can be the biggest movie

660
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 4: star in the world and we have a beautiful family.

661
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 4: And so that was more of the challenge. And so

662
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 4: our priorities were different, and.

663
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 3: That was the challenge.

664
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jada Pinkett Smith right

665
00:40:46,600 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: after this. We're back with Jada Pinkett Smith. In this book, Jada,

666
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about rumors and speculation because I

667
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: think when people don't I guess, share certain things, others

668
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 1: will create their own narratives. Right, this is what they do.

669
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 1: They just sort of project what they think on you.

670
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: And you decided you were going to be honest and

671
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: address some of these rumors head on. And you know,

672
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: I've heard these rumors too through the years, and I'm

673
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: always like, how do you know? And you know who cares?

674
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: But you talk about these rumors that circulated forever that

675
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: you were gay and why that happened? And you know,

676
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: I do think these things get out in the world

677
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: and then they snowball and then everyone says it. Then

678
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: it becomes almost accepted fact. It's such a weird phenomenon.

679
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: But why did you want to address that? And I mean,

680
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: why don't you tell us what you write in the

681
00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: book about that?

682
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean because I was just like, let's just

683
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 4: set the record straight in a certain manner, you know.

684
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 4: And it was part it was part of my like

685
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 4: youthful experience, you know, I talked about it in the book.

686
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 4: I was like, absolutely had an experience with two women

687
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 4: at different times, and and you know, I was like,

688
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 4: this is spicier than spicier at two different times, and

689
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 4: you know, in your youth.

690
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 3: Just like you have options.

691
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, all right, let me see if

692
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 4: this is an option, and just realizing like, oh yeah, no,

693
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 4: that's not quite my thing. You know, love women, just

694
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 4: not in that way and just to that's part of

695
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 4: the journey. So that's why it was just part of

696
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 4: my my journey of coming into knowing who I am.

697
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: But why do you think people are so obsessed with that?

698
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: I mean, people are obsessed with everything, you know.

699
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 3: People get so obsessed.

700
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 4: With other people's lives because they don't want to pay

701
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 4: attention to their own, you know, so I think that

702
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: I think that people are always looking, you know, to

703
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 4: just this looks too perfect, let's nitpick at it. And no,

704
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 4: they're beards for each other. And you know, people are

705
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: always people who are not happy, you know, want to

706
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 4: degrade things, that's all. And it's okay, you know, it's

707
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 4: no judgment and I've learned that on my journey not

708
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 4: to judge it and just recognize not to take it personally.

709
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 3: There's nothing to take personal.

710
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: That's hard though, I mean, it's hard to get to

711
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: that point, isn't it When people are you know, slinging

712
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 1: all these.

713
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

714
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 4: I think now it's more annoying than hurtful. You know,

715
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 4: it's just annoying. And I think thinking this in these times, honestly,

716
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 4: people are having such difficulty, and I think people are

717
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 4: just kind of acting out in different ways to just

718
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 4: let off some steam that really has nothing to do

719
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 4: with you or me.

720
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: Rather, the other thing you set the record straight on, Jada,

721
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: is this relationship you had that you call an entanglement,

722
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: but you clarify in the book that it was not

723
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: an affair. Honey, I don't know what that means. What

724
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: is an entanglement?

725
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 4: So it's it's a word that I actually came up

726
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 4: with at the table, but it's actually a word that

727
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: I heard a lot in all of my Buddhist readings.

728
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 4: So you'll hear Jack Cornfield talk about it a lot.

729
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 4: Right when I was listening to Jack, I was like, dag,

730
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 4: is that where where I got it from from? Was

731
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 4: it from Jack? And then when I read the Gita,

732
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 4: the Gita talks about entanglements, right, and so they are

733
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 4: these situations of confusion that we get involved in in

734
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 4: the material world, so we can be entangled in ourselves.

735
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: You know, arguments are entanglements, and you know, gossiping is

736
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 4: a way that you can be entangled. And so that's

737
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 4: how I looked at this particular situation. Was an entanglement,

738
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 4: but it was not an affair, and so people really

739
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 4: thought that entanglement was a new word for a fair

740
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 4: Now you can use it. Absolutely, an affair can be

741
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 4: an entanglement, for sure. It's just that my situation was

742
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 4: not an affair. In the book, I talk about how

743
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen, Will and I were not together. You know,

744
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 4: we had gone our separate ways and we were both

745
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 4: living separate lives and on our way to divorce.

746
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 3: So we were done. That's it.

747
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: And yet when he appeared on Red Table Talk, he

748
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: seemed like the person who had been wronged.

749
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what was so interesting, and that's why I

750
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 4: love the Table so much. You really got to see

751
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 4: a wounded dynamic between us both and an old story

752
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 4: played out at that table. Because Will wasn't supposed to

753
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 4: be at the table. I never asked him to come

754
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 4: to the table, you know, how did that happen? Then

755
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 4: he wanted to come to the table. He was like,

756
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 4: I don't want you to be there alone. I don't

757
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 4: want you to do this alone. And I was like,

758
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 4: oh wow, I was actually surprised, and I was like,

759
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 4: I thought that was a beautiful gesture. Once he came

760
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 4: to the table and what happened happened, I kind of

761
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 4: fell into my codependent martyrdom and I was like, I

762
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 4: am going to take care of you by all means

763
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 4: necessary because I see that you're not ready. And at

764
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 4: the same time, Katie, I really wanted to I want

765
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 4: it out of I had come to the table and

766
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 4: I was going to go to the table because I

767
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 4: was on my specific journey. So with what I had

768
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 4: at that time, that's how I knew how to handle

769
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 4: that situation, where I also being very forthright about my

770
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 4: experience and not wanting shame. I wasn't going to walk

771
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 4: in shame about that experience. But it was a very

772
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 4: complicated moment. It was a very complicated moment, and we've

773
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 4: done a lot of unpacking of that moment, to say

774
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 4: the least.

775
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: Well, I got to get to the slap because I

776
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: wondered when you wrote this book, Jata, if you were

777
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: wor that was what people really wanted to focus on.

778
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 4: You know what, maybe I knew it was going to

779
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 4: be a focus for sure, And of course it's been

780
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 4: called the slap herd around the world.

781
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: You refer to it as the Holy.

782
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 3: Slap, the Holy slab, and the Holy lessons.

783
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's fascinating to read your account of the

784
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: events that you know took you a while to process it.

785
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: Like everyone else watching, you weren't sure if there's a

786
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: real slap or you know, what was going through your

787
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: mind and how have you sort of come to terms

788
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: with the whole thing.

789
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 4: What was going through my mind was, like I talked

790
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 4: about in the book, I I thought it was a skit,

791
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: you know, I was. I was there as a family member,

792
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 4: And there's a whole lot of history that go with

793
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 4: this that you know in the book.

794
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 2: With Chris and Will, history.

795
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 4: With Will Chris, you know, emancipation and us going into therapy.

796
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 3: But we weren't together, you know, we weren't hadn't been

797
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 3: husband and wife since twenty sixteen.

798
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 4: So I was there with him as a family member

799
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 4: and not.

800
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: Necessarily as his wife, but his life partner. And so.

801
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 4: When it happened, it looked like Chris slipped the shot,

802
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 4: and it looked like it was a skit, and then

803
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 4: when Will turned around and walked back down the stage,

804
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 4: that's when I realized, oh, something is going on here.

805
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 4: But I still wasn't quite sure what was happening. And

806
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 4: it wasn't until my publicist and Will's publicists came to

807
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 4: our seats during the commercial break that Will's publicist said,

808
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 4: you know, Chris is leaving the building, but he's not

809
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 4: going to press charges. And I said, well, press charges

810
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 4: for what? And she said, because Will hit Chris. And

811
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 4: I looked to Will and I said, you.

812
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 3: Hit Chris, You actually hit Chris.

813
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 4: And he said yes, And that's when I knew. I

814
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 4: was like, well, I'm his wife. Now we're going to

815
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 4: get through this storm together. I knew it was going

816
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 4: to be, you know, quite a journey.

817
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: It was heartbreaking because it was such an important moment

818
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: for Will. You know, it could have been a moment

819
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: as he won the Oscar of Great Triumph, and yet

820
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: he seemed to sabotage everything. And you say in the

821
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: book you don't really want to explain his behavior, that

822
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: that's his story to tell, absolutely, but have you come

823
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 1: to any kind of understanding. I'm sure you all have

824
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 1: discussed this and gone over it and tried to understand

825
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 1: where that impulse came from.

826
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we've we've talked about it.

827
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 4: But like I said, that's you know, that's his journey,

828
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 4: that's his journey.

829
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 3: I wouldn't I wouldn't do a justice, I promise.

830
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: How aggravating was it that so many people seem to

831
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: direct their anger at you and focus on you? And

832
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: what role did you have? And were you aging him?

833
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: On and on and on and on.

834
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's age old, it's so old.

835
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 4: It's such an old, old, old story that it's the

836
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 4: woman's fault when men behave on savory.

837
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 3: So you know, it's not unique to me, and I

838
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 3: wasn't surprised.

839
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: We have to wrap things up, but before, just as

840
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: the end, what is the nature of your relationship?

841
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 4: Now?

842
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: Where are you right now in your relationship?

843
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 4: Beautiful life partnership and just in the recognition that we

844
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 4: want to share this lifetime together and.

845
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: You know which you figuring out what that's going to

846
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: look like?

847
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Worthy and Jada, I think

848
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: you've done an incredible job of really being honest about

849
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: not only your experience but the human experience in general.

850
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: And when you look ahead, what are you most excited

851
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: about after this.

852
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,919
Speaker 3: I am looking forward to going on a book tour.

853
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to that and looking forward to going

854
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 4: out and talking to people and shaking hands and talking

855
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 4: about the book and intimate group settings.

856
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to that.

857
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: Just sharing with others what you've learned in hopes of

858
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: helping them or just you.

859
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 4: Know, sharing the book and seeing people's thoughts and you know,

860
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 4: and just getting out there and you know, having intimate

861
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 4: conversations live.

862
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to do that.

863
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 4: I've always wanted to take the Red Table, you know,

864
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 4: out around to different cities, and now we're kind of doing.

865
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: That, so you know, I'm kind of excited about that.

866
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: So well, thank you for spending time with us. And

867
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: the book again is called Worthy and Jade. I hope

868
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: it's not ten plus years before I see you again.

869
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 3: I know, but it's so good to see you. Really,

870
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 3: it's wonderful to have this conversation today.

871
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

872
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 3: I have a good one.

873
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone.

874
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: If you have a question for me, a subject you

875
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: want us to cover, or you want to share your

876
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out.

877
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: You can leave a short message at six oh nine

878
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: five point two five to five oh five, or you

879
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love

880
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Next Question is a production of

881
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Meet

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00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

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Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes.

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Speaker 2: Matt Russell can post our theme music.

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Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up

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Speaker 1: for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description

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Speaker 1: in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecouric dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram and all my

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Speaker 1: social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.