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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

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Speaker 1: or scouting for ELK, First Light has performance apparel to

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Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L

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Speaker 1: I T E dot com. All right, joined today by

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Speaker 1: esteemed historian American historian Elliott West. Welcome on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, it's good to be here.

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Speaker 1: I've had two I've had two, well, a lot of

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Speaker 1: run ins with you work, but I've had two main

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Speaker 1: run ins I want to tell you about. I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you about. We got to cover some stuff that I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna tell you about the runnings. Sure, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna tell you that doctor Randall here. Do you guys

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Speaker 1: know each other? Just be just He has a genuine

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Speaker 1: PhD in history. I heard he told me about he

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Speaker 1: told how did he bring it up? Okay, so he

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Speaker 1: didn't be like a little thing he might not know

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Speaker 1: about me.

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Speaker 3: No, No, he.

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Speaker 2: Was quite modest.

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Speaker 1: I heard there are I was reading today that there's

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Speaker 1: this article in the Free Pressay now that brought up

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Speaker 1: I'll tell the article. The article was a guy, a

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Speaker 1: climatologist that just got there's a climatologist to row to

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Speaker 1: op ed in Free Press about publishing in the journal Nature,

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Speaker 1: m okay, and was saying that it was talking about

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Speaker 1: how biased Nature is toward what they want to publish,

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Speaker 1: and they were publishing about wildfires in California and how

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Speaker 1: you need to de emphasize issues not fitting with climate

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Speaker 1: change to get published in Nature, like they know what

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Speaker 1: they want, right, So like this climatellogy is like absolutely,

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Speaker 1: climate change is a big issue with wildfires in California,

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Speaker 1: but there's all these other underlying things. Eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: California wildfires are human caused. Okay, where is that. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to write an article about changing human behaviors

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Speaker 1: leading to wildfires, or electrical transmission leading to wildfires, or

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Speaker 1: the need to bury electrical lines and not have overhead

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Speaker 1: electrical lines due to wildfires and that's not gonna be

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Speaker 1: of interest, right, climate change boom you're in. So they

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Speaker 1: wrote this article in Free Press about what they had

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Speaker 1: to leave out, like what you need to leave out

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Speaker 1: to catch the eye of nature to fit what they want.

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Speaker 1: You know, what they've decided is scientific. And if it's

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Speaker 1: it's scientific, is you know, like of whale, a whale

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Speaker 1: takes a wrong turn and goes up a river and

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Speaker 1: dies in a river, you better say the climate change

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Speaker 1: led to that whale going up that river, and then

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Speaker 1: it'll be in the paper. Right. But anyways, they're saying,

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Speaker 1: they're talking about there are like sixty times more PhDs.

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Speaker 1: The hell is here? Pull this up CRN sixty times

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Speaker 1: more PhDs now than in nineteen sixty No kidding, that's

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Speaker 1: not right.

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Speaker 4: May I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

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Speaker 1: Meaning they just hand those things out like candy, and

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Speaker 1: that was my experience.

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Speaker 5: And there's no there's a lot more people and there's

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Speaker 5: a lot more people going to higher education than like

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Speaker 5: here hold back in the World War two.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of fewer tenure track jobs.

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Speaker 1: Well you know how they were Here's what they were blaming.

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Speaker 1: So the point being, where is this dance? I can't

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Speaker 1: can you find it?

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Speaker 6: I mean, I don't I don't know if this is reputable.

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Speaker 6: This is Historynewsnetwork dot org. I have no idea who's

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Speaker 6: behind this organization? Are you familiar?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is it about how many PhDs are

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Speaker 1: running around?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? History? Oh well, you know what, Actually this is

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Speaker 6: specifically about history. History. Bachelor's degrees are falling sharply while

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Speaker 6: doctoral degrees in the discipline continue to rise.

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Speaker 1: We don't really think about a guy like Randall.

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Speaker 5: He's not as he's not as unique as he as

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Speaker 5: he thought he was.

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Speaker 1: He's got to see his new bumper stick or asked

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Speaker 1: me about my pH d, and then he's got that,

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Speaker 1: he's got that plate mt pH D. Yeah, it's a joke.

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Speaker 1: It's a joke.

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Speaker 3: I made a terrible mistakes.

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Speaker 2: It's a tough gig.

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Speaker 3: It's like a big target on your back.

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Speaker 1: A couple of things. So, oh, you know, darn thing

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Speaker 1: about the Darth thing. I've been thinking about the news.

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Speaker 1: I got a couple of notes I made in my

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Speaker 1: little note thing about that. Someday historians should write an

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Speaker 1: article about how much people love to talk about if

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Speaker 1: you get, if something bad happens, you're in Yellstone National Park,

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Speaker 1: how much people love talking about how dumb you are.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't like I was on the plane ther day

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Speaker 1: and so you know whatever, Like someone gets someone gets

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Speaker 1: run over by a buffalo in the park, What is

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Speaker 1: the story going to be? How how dumb they were?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? People on the plane

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Speaker 1: behind me are like those people. You know. It's like

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Speaker 1: like I don't know, you know, I can see know

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, animal, dude.

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Speaker 5: How many times of all people, I'm surprised you're walking

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Speaker 5: into like a thin layer of like hot spring crust

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Speaker 5: and falling through.

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Speaker 7: I just especially to walk through like three dozen signs

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Speaker 7: saying stop, don't you idiot?

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Speaker 1: Don't I like my instinct is to my instinct is

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Speaker 1: to be like, yeah, I can see that happening. The

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Speaker 1: guy that cooked the chicken in the hot spring, you

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Speaker 1: were supposed to get him on the show. Yeah, some

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Speaker 1: guys tie a chicken on a rope and lower it

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Speaker 1: in there and boil it, and everybody talks about all

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Speaker 1: those they should know better. I'm like, that's it. It's

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Speaker 1: like a totally interesting idea. Because Osborne Russell Journal of

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Speaker 1: a Trapper, don't they talk about doing that? They do.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna put this, but I want to ask you thing.

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Speaker 1: Because I endorse Born, I always endorsed Journal of Trapper

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Speaker 1: and the thing I'll say about it is that historians

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Speaker 1: like it, right, Oh yes, yeah, it's regarded he was

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Speaker 1: regarded as spot on.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know what surprised me. You know another book

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Speaker 1: I read, uh that I heard that historians are a

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Speaker 1: little incredulous. Is Tough Trip through Paradise?

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Speaker 2: Really?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Have you heard that he played a little fast

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Speaker 1: and loose with.

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Speaker 2: The I've never heard that. It's been years since I

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Speaker 2: read it, but I loved doing I read it. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I was overthrown through a Paradise valley the other day,

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Speaker 2: just again, is that right? Beautiful country?

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Speaker 1: So you can cite uh, Tough Trip through Paradise and

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Speaker 1: it's like like historians will cite Tough Trip through Paradise

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Speaker 1: and it's regarded as okay, sure, yeah, yeah. But historians

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Speaker 1: love Journal of a Trapper.

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Speaker 2: They do it really readings true a lot of a

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Speaker 2: lot of the things that he says in there, and

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Speaker 2: you know, jobs with the other material that we have

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Speaker 2: on fur Trader and trappers and so forth. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's sure good.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep endorse that was I getting that. Oh

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Speaker 1: A lot of PhDs running around, uh, A lot.

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Speaker 5: Of smart people and that's somehow Buffalo brilliant.

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Speaker 1: A lot of brilliant people get goured by Buffalo and

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Speaker 1: get blamed for being stupid when I think that they

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Speaker 1: might have just been kind of.

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Speaker 6: Like backing up into the like.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, I'm gonna go over there

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Speaker 1: and get close.

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Speaker 6: To it, backing up into Buffalo with like selfie sticks.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Brody, hear me out, Brody. We just worked on Okay,

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Speaker 1: catch crayfish, count stars, and we encourage And what do

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Speaker 1: we tell kids? What do we give tips kids? Tips

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Speaker 1: on hot what to do getting close to critters, how

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Speaker 1: to sneak up on stuff, but you don't got to

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Speaker 1: sneak up on them.

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Speaker 5: It's like you get out of the car and there's

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Speaker 5: one stand in the park.

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Speaker 8: I think the I think the problem that that's underlying

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Speaker 8: all those stories is just that you somehow expect that

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Speaker 8: people go into Yellowstone and not be stupid.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 8: It's like it's like that's the one place where people

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Speaker 8: aren't supposed to break rules and just behave in all

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Speaker 8: you know, and all types of I feel like you

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Speaker 8: go anywhere in the world, people are doing stupid stuff.

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Speaker 8: It's just that the stakes are higher when you have

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Speaker 8: large animals around.

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Speaker 1: But if here's the deal, if someone can to you,

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Speaker 1: like like someone came to be someone here at work

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Speaker 1: comes and that wouldn't be surprised if this happened. I

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Speaker 1: come into work and someone's like, oh, you here, Chili

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Speaker 1: got Gord by a mule deer, right, he got God

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Speaker 1: by a meal deer. I wouldn't be like that, idiot.

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Speaker 1: I'd just be like what, Yeah. I would automatically impulsively

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Speaker 1: blame the person who got mauled by something for stupidity,

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Speaker 1: the way they do if it's in the park.

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Speaker 7: M hm.

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Speaker 2: Well. The story I remember, though, was the woman who

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Speaker 2: went up to buy some gup right in front of

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Speaker 2: it with a flash camera, you know, took a close

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Speaker 2: up of the of hiss head from the front. Sure,

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Speaker 2: and she got Gord. What do you expect that she.

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Speaker 4: Expected?

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Speaker 1: I can't go.

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Speaker 2: I think pictures blurred.

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Speaker 9: Uh.

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Speaker 1: The third thing I wanted to talk about, but I

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Speaker 1: can't give too many details. I got a friend who's

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor in this state. He's a county prosecutor, and

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Speaker 1: he was telling me the other day about he had

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Speaker 1: a thing he's working on where these guys in a

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Speaker 1: trailer park, gotten to fight like this want being like

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Speaker 1: a prosecuted issue. They got to fight over a last

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Speaker 1: piece of fried chicken that someone then impregnated the chicken

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Speaker 1: with glass shards of glass, and a fight broke out

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Speaker 1: so bad the fight broke out, went over the fence

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Speaker 1: and into I ninety and shut the highway down. No,

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Speaker 1: no another for common. Here's the everything, this super important

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Speaker 1: that I keep wanting to get to my body. One

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Speaker 1: of my main best friends from growing up and we're

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Speaker 1: still friends today. He comes up to our fishsheck every year.

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Speaker 1: He has a new he's a teacher. Okay, he has

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Speaker 1: a business, a summertime business of he's got a roving bar.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna explain this, damn it. Okay, if you live

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Speaker 1: around Traverse City, Michigan, here's what you need to who

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Speaker 1: you need to hire for your events. This is the

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Speaker 1: this is so. This is a good, very good buddy,

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Speaker 1: My Matt DROs from growing up, we still hang out.

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Speaker 1: Was just with him and because he's a teacher, he

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Speaker 1: has a summertime business he created called roaming Roaming Northern

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Speaker 1: Michigan dot com. But it's not it's roaming. No. My

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Speaker 1: so roaming Andi dot com. I'll revisit this in a minute.

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Speaker 1: He has a camp or trailer that he rigged up

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Speaker 1: as a bar. But when you have an event, you

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Speaker 1: get married whatever, twenty fifth wedding anniversary bar mitzvah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Uh. You call him, you place your liquor order,

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Speaker 1: he picks it up. Okay, so he's not selling booze.

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Speaker 1: You buy your booze for your event like you normally would.

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Speaker 1: He then shows up with his motor home with all

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Speaker 1: the mixers and specialty drinks that he crafts for your thing,

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Speaker 1: pulls his camper in and then your guests go to

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Speaker 1: the bar window to get cocktails.

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Speaker 4: And there's no money change.

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Speaker 1: In hands, No money changes hands. Fantastic, no money changes hands.

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Speaker 1: He operates out of Traverse City, Michigan. Packages prices everything

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Speaker 1: at the website Roaming nom Roaming n m I dot com.

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Speaker 1: Matt Drose plan an event just to call him. I

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Speaker 1: like it, Like if you're getting married somewhere else, get

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Speaker 1: married there and call it roaming and go to Roamingnomi

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Speaker 1: dot com and patronize my good friend's business. He likes

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Speaker 1: to hunt and fish.

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Speaker 5: He should start a franchise take over the country.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I've been wanting to talk about. I invented

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Speaker 1: an old saying. I'm the only guy I know that

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Speaker 1: ever invented an old saying meaning, you know, like stitching

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Speaker 1: time saves nine.

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Speaker 6: Like you said you invented it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I thought of one that you'd think

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Speaker 1: was old. And it has to do with like if

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Speaker 1: you send your kids out to pick pole beans and

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Speaker 1: he'd be like, pick every pole bean, and then you

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Speaker 1: go out and look and there's pol beans they didn't

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Speaker 1: pick because it's hard to find them. Or like you

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Speaker 1: send your wife's friend out to pick pole beans and

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Speaker 1: she's like, I got them all, and you go on looking.

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Speaker 1: They didn't get them all. They didn't look carefully enough.

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Speaker 1: The old saying I invented is is I could see

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Speaker 1: applications and finance and other things. A fresh a fresh

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Speaker 1: set of eyes will always find more beans.

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Speaker 2: Hm hm.

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Speaker 1: So right. So, like let's say someone's like whatever, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. You know, you can see implications and finance whatever,

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Speaker 1: fresh set eye, Yeah exactly, but your body's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I glass that hillside good and you sit down and

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Speaker 1: you're like, you know what, buddy, fresh set eyes always

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Speaker 1: find more beans.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't.

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Speaker 1: There's a buck right over there. You don't think so

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Speaker 1: Katie thinks is like useless. He knows my wife doesn't

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Speaker 1: think it's a good saying, good old saying at all.

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Speaker 1: A couple more dress you sounds like a real dor

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Speaker 1: when you say you do, sound like a total dork

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Speaker 1: when you say it. First set eyes always find more beans, Randall, I've.

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Speaker 3: Never really thought about finding beans.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna work on it. Think about it, Phil.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Phil can workshop that that's different. I got a

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Speaker 1: lot more stuff written out here, but we got to

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Speaker 1: get down to what we're talking about. Oh, so here's

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Speaker 1: the deal.

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Speaker 4: This is.

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Speaker 1: Our esteem. Guests probably wondering why it is here, but

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have a lot of time. We're gonna get

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Speaker 1: to something from your state. Elliott. Were you born in Arkansas? No?

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Speaker 2: I was born in Texas, in Dallas.

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Speaker 1: Oh you're born in Dallas, Texas. But you're at University

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Speaker 1: of Arkansas.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I've been there for well, retired a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 2: At been I've been there for forty three, forty four years.

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Speaker 1: Did they give you that? What's that good title you

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Speaker 1: get when you retire? But you remain in good standing Americas?

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Speaker 1: Are you emeretis?

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Speaker 2: I'm emeritus?

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Speaker 1: That's sweet man? Uh Randall have you heard of doubt?

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Speaker 1: The best thing Randallsville tell me about his PhD is

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Speaker 1: when he checks a book out from the library, he

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Speaker 1: gets as long as he wants. That makes all while

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Speaker 1: those librarians chasing after all the time, and you get that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: librarians aren't always after him for the seventy.

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Speaker 8: Eight small, very very small privileges in life to make

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Speaker 8: it all worth it.

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Speaker 1: This is from Springdale, Arkansas. So September twenty third. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about this the whole bunch. We actually for a

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Speaker 1: while talked about that we were going to like start

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Speaker 1: our own, which you never got around to. But this

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Speaker 1: one's back on the World Champion Squirrel Cookoff, Springdale, Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: September twenty third, in partnership with Arizona Fish and Game

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Speaker 1: Free of vatkans Arkansas. What did I say, Arizona? I did,

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Speaker 1: we probably can Arkansas. I feel, yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: lot of work. One state is not going to have

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Speaker 1: a squirrel cookoff and be Arizona.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Springdale, Arkansas, September twenty third, in partnership with Oh, that's

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Speaker 1: why I screwed up in partnership with Arkansas Fishing Game

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Speaker 1: free event. It's a creative event and competitive cooking and

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Speaker 1: squirrel dishes must contain eighty percent squirrel and be prepared

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Speaker 1: on site. That's a good TIB because I've judged wild

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Speaker 1: game cookoffs before where it's like the game part becomes

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Speaker 1: an afterthought.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you could put like one squirrel in a pot

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Speaker 5: of chili and be.

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Speaker 1: Like that squirrel chili eighty percent squirrel, So you are

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Speaker 1: showcasing squirrel. They have a Facebook deal. So when you're

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Speaker 1: describing where to find something on Facebook, do you include

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Speaker 1: like Facebook dot com? Or what do you write? How

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Speaker 1: do you say?

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Speaker 6: I guess, yeah, because I guess If you don't have Facebook,

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Speaker 6: you can still type in this your URL and get there.

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Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash Squirrel Cookoff. We'll take you there.

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Speaker 6: And it's organized by Clay's good friend. Clay's going to

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Speaker 6: be there this year. I think he is. Yeah, I think.

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Speaker 1: So Here's what I don't like. They're billing it. They're

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Speaker 1: making it like a war on squirrels.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this squirrel has.

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Speaker 1: Caused millions of dollars of damage. Listen, don't I still

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Speaker 1: want people to go, But this is not about squirrels

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Speaker 1: being bad.

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Speaker 6: Come on, I don't know.

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Speaker 8: Typically I think of these things as a celebration of

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Speaker 8: the animal right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, like house fires are caused by squirrels, They got

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Speaker 5: all kinds of screams things.

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Speaker 1: Listen, listen. I still want you to go to the

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Speaker 1: squirrel Cookoff, but you need to go from a place

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Speaker 1: of love, not from a place of go from a

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Speaker 1: position of love for squirrels, not from a position of

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Speaker 1: squirrel hatred. No.

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Speaker 6: I think it's also that for anyone who needs like

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Speaker 6: extra justification to, you know, push them over the edge

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Speaker 6: if they might not otherwise attend they're being reminded did.

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Speaker 1: But the last thing you want to create is like

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Speaker 1: another a squirrel. There's a lot of things to love,

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Speaker 1: like about hunting, but people like, well if I didn't hunt,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of you.

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Speaker 5: And they're like going after him the way people go

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Speaker 5: after coyote.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exact things like that. It's strange.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know to do about all rearing endorsement. No, listen,

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Speaker 1: I am all four. Do you see me pounding this table.

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Speaker 1: I'm all for the squirrel Cookoff. I just think that

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Speaker 1: it has been. It's from a place. I love that

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Speaker 1: it approach the right. Never in my life seeing a

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Speaker 1: squirrel and been like, dah, damn it a squirrel. Do

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: You need to go down there and enter a pine

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Speaker 5: squirrel recipe with Jimmy.

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Speaker 1: That'd be great idea. No one else pine squirrel carried away.

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Speaker 1: I still like, I'm still mad at my mother for

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Speaker 1: cutting some of the oak trees down in her yard

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Speaker 1: because of squirrels, squirrel damage, the squirrel habitat uh. We

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Speaker 1: recently had an episode where we were with the founder,

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Speaker 1: the creator of the Merlin app at Cornell. Someone had

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Speaker 1: a hot tip about the Merlin app. Get a bluetooth

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Speaker 1: speaker and play back bird songs. This is very effective.

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Speaker 1: I wish would have brought it up. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if they do. They frown on it. Maybe they frown

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Speaker 1: on it at Merlin. We'll have to see if they

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Speaker 1: write in meaning it works. It's very effective to call

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Speaker 1: in birds. In fact, we would so the over day.

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Speaker 1: I'll sitting there with my boy in a little pop

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Speaker 1: up blind. I'm gonna pull this up. I got a

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Speaker 1: gripe with the Merlin app too, Just and I know

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Speaker 1: they listened to the show it. This is the only

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Speaker 1: bird I never they It does not pick up a

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Speaker 1: It won't pick up a grade. JA listen to this.

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Speaker 1: So here's from my Merlin app. I'm gonna turn it up.

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Speaker 1: This is a recording I made this weekend. So that's

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Speaker 1: a pine squirrel. Okay, but listen to them again. I

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Speaker 1: hit him again and again and again with Merlin. Listen,

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Speaker 1: care for the that's a great jay. Listen. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: get it. It registers it. You see it show up. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it will not identify that thing. It's the only failure

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen Merlin.

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Speaker 7: I wonder if it's too short of no.

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Speaker 1: He was going boom boom boom, and there's probably other vocalizations,

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Speaker 1: but it will not detect that vocalization.

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Speaker 7: That squirrel is really really upfront and loud.

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Speaker 6: I wonder if it's like yeah that and it's audio.

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Speaker 7: Clashing with a lot of the frequencies.

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Speaker 1: Is my guest, you think so?

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Speaker 7: I think so.

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Speaker 6: It comes from an audio engineers.

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Speaker 1: Here's my kids. Here's what you want to hear my

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Speaker 1: kid criticizing.

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Speaker 7: Me ursus, you're so what.

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Speaker 1: You're so slow. He didn't like when we go to

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Speaker 1: pick off a bird. He didn't like how long it'd

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Speaker 1: take me to activate the app. It was frustrating. He

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Speaker 1: thought you would just like let it run for hours

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Speaker 1: on end, and I didn't like that approach.

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Speaker 8: I mean, it seems like if you're playing on a

401
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 8: bluetooth speaker, if there's someone else in the area using

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Speaker 8: the Merlin app, that it could cause a feedback loop

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Speaker 8: where all of a sudden there's a.

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Speaker 1: Merlin's too smart. I've played bird, I've played recordings, and

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Speaker 1: I haven't done it much. I've played recordings and something

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Speaker 1: g's lost interesting. So if you play, we can do

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00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, try it right now, But if you

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Speaker 1: play Merlin a recording of a bird, it won't flag

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Speaker 1: the bird. I don't know if it's just because things

410
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Speaker 1: are too compressed. If something's like too compressed, Phil probably

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Speaker 1: answer that, what do you think of that is? Phil?

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Speaker 7: Honestly, that kind of baffles me. I feel like it

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Speaker 7: should be able to pick it out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: However, we have a called the Bird Song Bible, and

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Speaker 1: you type in bird calls and it's going through like

417
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: a little chintzy little there's like a speaker baked into

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00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: the book and it might be that that speaker just sucks.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but Merlin won't identify those birds. But

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Speaker 1: I could run around with this. I could go into

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Speaker 1: any area with pine squirrels. And we did it for

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00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: we were just messing around this weekend. We would just

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Speaker 1: walk into a spot and play that squirrel and just

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Speaker 1: no sooner he shut up alst in the woods just

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Speaker 1: come alive with like squirrels replying to it. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was reading a thing where they they're working on

427
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: his study with vervet monkeys who they have these different

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Speaker 1: warning calls. These researchers realizing that they had that they

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Speaker 1: have a warning call for a threat on the ground,

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Speaker 1: and then they have a warning call for a threat

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Speaker 1: from an avian predator, and they seem to have a

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Speaker 1: different noise they make on the ground in the air.

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Speaker 1: And they would record the calls and play it and

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Speaker 1: monitor what evasive actions they took. If it's a thread

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00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: on the ground, they would do one thing like bust

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Speaker 1: into the tree. If it's an overhead threat, they would

437
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: respond differently to it to like reduce their risk from

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Speaker 1: a harpy eagle or the hell praise on them. I

439
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was the praise on them. It

440
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't be a harpy because that's South America, but these

441
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: I think are Africa. Anyways, you could burn out. You

442
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: could burn them out on a monkey. If you record

443
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: a monkey doing a warning call and then start playing

444
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: that monkey to his buddies all the time. After a

445
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: while his buddies, he loses credibility with his buddies.

446
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 3: The monkey he had cried eagle.

447
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the monkey that cried and he's the monkey

448
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: that cried wolf, and you could play it where everybody's like, oh, Bob,

449
00:24:54,920 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: he always is doing that. An insurance so I was

450
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: using the term inherent vice, which is one of my

451
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: favorite movies. I like it. It's one of those rare

452
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: instances where a movie is so much better than a book.

453
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: Thomas Pinsion's Inherent Vice was made into a film, which

454
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: was a wonderful movie. And we were talking about when

455
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: we had David grant On. I think that's when we

456
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: had David grant On. We're talking about the concept of

457
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: inherent vice, which is a nautical term. Someone wrote in.

458
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: A guy named Thomas wrote in from He's from an insurance.

459
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: He's a marine insurance specialist got to say his name. Sure,

460
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: he's the president of Alan Armott Agency, Inc. Marine Insurance Specialists.

461
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: He says, Steve refers to inherent vice as things you

462
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: can't control, like getting wet. Inherent vice is the ability

463
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: of a thing to destroy itself health, fruit can rot,

464
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: marijuana can actually light itself on fire, metal can rust.

465
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: Getting wet would not be under inherent vice. Getting wet

466
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: is an external.

467
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 6: Factor caused by an external factor.

468
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: Caused by an external factor. So like the idea of

469
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: inherent vice and shipping, if the load gets wet, it's

470
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: not like, Ah, that just happens. Someone screwed up when

471
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: he gets wet. Then he goes on to say, never

472
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: thought I would be the type to email a correction.

473
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 9: Uh.

474
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: Someone else rode in with another one. When we had

475
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: the writer David Grant on about the wager, we talked

476
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: about sayings that come from naval, the naval world. He says,

477
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: you guys fell down a rabbit hole on ship terms

478
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: and sayings on the podcast with David Grant. Here's another.

479
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: Do you believe this?

480
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 4: I'm wondering, I'm looking it up.

481
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 6: I didn't look it up.

482
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: He's saying that the word ship comes from the old days.

483
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 5: I think he's off. You look it up origin Old English.

484
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 5: I don't know how to how to pronounce it. S

485
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 5: c I T t E of Germanic origin.

486
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: Maybe bags of manure. Maybe maybe our maybe our steam

487
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: guests has heard of this, bags of manure.

488
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: I'm dealing it a lot, Okay.

489
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: If you stored bags of manure within the depths of

490
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: a ship, they could get seawater on makes them unusable.

491
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: They would write s h I T on bags of

492
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: nerve store high in transit.

493
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 7: I don't know that sounds fake. Do you think it

494
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 7: sounds fake?

495
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 8: I've heard that before, but I don't. I mean the

496
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 8: the etymology.

497
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 4: Yeah it doesn't. It doesn't match up with but the

498
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: google because.

499
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: The German is shi.

500
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Germans were using that word for us words.

501
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 5: Ship first originally appeared around one thousand years ago and

502
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 5: can be traced back to the old Norse origin skit

503
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 5: skeeta skeeters.

504
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 4: I'm just saying, there's like this gate.

505
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 6: This guy might be wrong, but I kinda like this

506
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 6: should feel.

507
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: Pull it out of the show, leave it. Someone wrote

508
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: in out that Krin likes this one. I don't know.

509
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: Well, if you.

510
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: Were tasked with the decision of picking four American authors

511
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: to be etched into the side of a mountain. Who

512
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: would they be. I'll just leave that one hanging for

513
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: for listeners.

514
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 6: Elliott West and rand.

515
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Oh.

516
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: I was gonna tell you, yeah, uh, did you know

517
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: that Randall reviewed your work? Hemagined they I.

518
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 3: Did tell him that.

519
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: Let's start with that. Randal set the scene for us. Well.

520
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 8: I was in a graduate seminar taught by Dan and

521
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 8: each week, each week you had to review a book

522
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 8: and from a different period of time or I think

523
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 8: some of them were probably thematic.

524
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: Each week, yep, you read.

525
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 8: So everybody in the seminar reads a book and reviews it,

526
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 8: and then you get together on Monday or Tuesday or

527
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 8: whenever the classes and you just explain your book and

528
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 8: Dan kind of pieces them all together and explains how

529
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 8: they're in conversation with one another. And that was kind

530
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 8: of the structure of those seminars. But one week I

531
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 8: had the pleasure of reviewing The Last Indian War, probably

532
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 8: two years after it came out, and stuck with me.

533
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: So, I would you like to share a passage with us?

534
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: Mm?

535
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you proposed this to me didn't you that

536
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: you'd share as.

537
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: The passage.

538
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 8: There's just there are a lot of things that are

539
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 8: attributed to me in the course of a conversation having

540
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 8: to do with my educational background that really have never

541
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 8: once escaped my mouth.

542
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: So but yeah, Crin, if you'd like to know, I'm

543
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: gonna deny his Montana PhD license plate.

544
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 9: Now.

545
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a memorable book. I think there are a couple. Uh,

546
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 8: I just I appreciated. I always appreciate books that make

547
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 8: a story that you think is a story about one

548
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 8: thing speak to bigger stories and bigger narratives. And so

549
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 8: that was one of those books that kind of opened

550
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 8: my eyes to how the past is all and you know,

551
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 8: different parts of the past during conversation with one another.

552
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: Well, thank you?

553
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have it pulled up?

554
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 7: No?

555
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: Don't?

556
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: Should should read it? How long is the passage?

557
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: It's I just shared. I don't need to read any

558
00:30:59,680 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: of this.

559
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: No, no, you don't. You know what you don't need

560
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: to Randall? Was it a negative review, No, No, it

561
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: was quite complimentary.

562
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 8: I actually I only sent along the the excerpt excerpts

563
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 8: from it because I I thought you might find them

564
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 8: useful in preparation for our conversations.

565
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: Why you shared them?

566
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, No, it wasn't a show and tell. If

567
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 8: it was, I would have had a I would have

568
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 8: had a photo of the original with the sticker at

569
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 8: the top.

570
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, I thought you might find it.

571
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: Oh you're trying to help me out as a host. Yeah, yeah,

572
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: I appreciate that.

573
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 8: Instead, I just put another great, big target on my back.

574
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: I guess. So, elios, let's start out, how many when

575
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: you look at your career as a historian and you've

576
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: been in you've been in the biz, how long fifty

577
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: years do you do you measure it? Do you measure

578
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: your career as a historian in terms of how many

579
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: books you've written?

580
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 6: Like?

581
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, how do you how

582
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: do you sum it up? Right?

583
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: Well, that would be one way I think. I think

584
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: I think more in terms of teaching. Okay, how many

585
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: teaching the public University of State university, so you have

586
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: big classes. I tried to figure out. In fact, I

587
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: dedicated a book of a few books ago to my students,

588
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: and I said, I and figured out it's probably had

589
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: somewhere between ten and twelve thousand students. Really, in terms

590
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: of I've also worked.

591
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: That's a lot of influence, that's a lot of you

592
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: have them for a lot of hours.

593
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 6: I do.

594
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 2: Indeed, they would confirm that yes, captive, Oh my god,

595
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: it's like I ever shut up, you know. But he

596
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: also I try to work. I've tried to work a

597
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: lot with public school teachers to encourage, you know, better

598
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: teaching of American history.

599
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: Is that right?

600
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: I've had one hundred of them over the years, and

601
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: they've had, of course, each one of them has said,

602
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of students.

603
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: How do you think, how do you interact with public

604
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: school teachers in what capacity?

605
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: Well, there are different programs. One that I continue to

606
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: work with the Guilder Laherman Institute in New York. It's

607
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 2: a wonderful institute to encourage a good teaching of American history.

608
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: And they sponsor seminars over the years, and I've done,

609
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: oh gosh, probably ten or fifteen of those. And you

610
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: meet with a week for a week with school teachers

611
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: from all around the country, since some from abroad, and

612
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: you choose a topic. I taught one I was mentioning

613
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: a moment ago. Taught one in Missoula for four years

614
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: on Lewis and Clark. So you have teachers come from

615
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: all over the country, all over the world, and you

616
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: try to have the seminars and in the place that

617
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: you're teaching about, you know. So we would talk about

618
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: Lewis and Clark and sort of pick that expedition apart,

619
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: and then on a Wednesday, we'd go up a little

620
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: low pass to the uh you know, to travelers Rest,

621
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: and then up to the old Pass and then back

622
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: and sort of around the country. So it's a it's

623
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: a great way to encourage students to identify, not just

624
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: in terms of new material, but you know the place itself,

625
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 2: because you really can't, especially Western history, you can't understand

626
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: the story if you don't don't know the place. You know,

627
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: if you can't go there.

628
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think is wrong with

629
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: how American? You know? If you said to be to

630
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: do better at teaching American history, where do people fall

631
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 1: short in teaching American history in your in your view.

632
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: Well, until fairly recently, of course, you leave out a

633
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: lot that's pertinent. Uh. I think we need to bring

634
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 2: in more areas like environmental history, the kind of thing

635
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: that your podcast deals with a great deal beyond that,

636
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 2: I think you need to the you need to talk

637
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: about the larger contexts, you know, to take something to

638
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: Lewis and Clark. It's a fascinating story. It's an American epic,

639
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, it's like an American creation story. Almost You're

640
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: caught up in this sort of a mythic pattern where

641
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: you think this is an absolutely unique event, but in fact,

642
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: you know, this is part of global exploration, you know,

643
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: and something that was happening all over all over the

644
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 2: planet Earth. And these were just two guys among many

645
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: who we're doing this. You didn't understand in terms of

646
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: what what does the expedition teach us about Indian peoples

647
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 2: at that time? What does it teach us about science

648
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: of that time?

649
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 7: You know.

650
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: So it's a big story. It's a big story. It's

651
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: a distinctly American story. And the journals, of course are

652
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: a masterpiece of American literature. So it's our story, but

653
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: it's also the world's story, and I think it helps

654
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 2: to put all of American history in that larger context

655
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: if you can.

656
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: You know, earlier I mentioned there's two areas where I

657
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: had kind of the main two areas where I brushed

658
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: up against your work over the years. Is years ago,

659
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: I was going to write a book. I wanted to

660
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: write a book about the nets Person War. Oh really yeah,

661
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: Well I started working on it, my little what I

662
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: was doing, and I got going on it. I was

663
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: just going to walk that whole well, I use my packcraft.

664
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: I just had a backpack with packraft in and I

665
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: got started on it. I was going to walk and

666
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: pack raft that whole route, and I got going on it,

667
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: but just the the time, commitment and other things prevented me.

668
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: So I read your book at the time, your book

669
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: on the nets Pers War the other area, and this

670
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: is kind of where one of the areas where I

671
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: want to jump in talking to you. I talked about

672
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: it on the show. Even you had an essay. It

673
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: was collecting one of your books. It was one of

674
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: your books that had like there was a collection of

675
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: four or five bigger pieces. You had an essay about

676
00:36:52,520 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: how old European involvement and influence on the Great Plains,

677
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: how far back that went right? And in it you

678
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: make the point and this kid just kind of I

679
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: guess maybe I was aware of it but hadn't thought

680
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: about it just blew my mind you're like when Lewis

681
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: and Clark stepped down into the Great Plains, there were

682
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: Native Americans on the Great Plains at that time who

683
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: had been to Europe and met the King of France

684
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: and came back home again on the Great Plains at

685
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: the time Lewis and Clark, and in the American imagination,

686
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: it's like that they it was just that they went

687
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: into this place, this untouched, unhistoried. Yeah, and then you

688
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: got into just the I think it was hundreds of

689
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: years if you go back to people like these kind

690
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: of like offshoots of the Coronado Expedition, that they were

691
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: coming into an area that had been deeply influenced.

692
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they what you were talking about, these Indians

693
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: from the Kansas area. Actually Kansas in Missouri had been

694
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: to the court, the Court of France course of the

695
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: fifteenth Now that was a but that was in seventeen twenty,

696
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: seventeen twenty five, seventeen twenty six. This is a long

697
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: time before Willison Clark. So the image I love to

698
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: imagine might have happened was that at the time that

699
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: we the American you know, the East West Frontier was

700
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: edging its way into the interior. That's what Lewis and

701
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: Clark would you'll be part of if you go back

702
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: to when that when this was seventeen twenties. Yeah, there

703
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: was a governor, territorial governor of coinial governor of Virginia,

704
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: you know, who had a group of people he called

705
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 2: a the the Knights of the Golden Horseshoe, and they

706
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 2: would they loved to go explored the far west, right

707
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 2: and they and he would come back with this reports

708
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: of this this magnificent river they had found in this

709
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 2: beautiful valley that was the it was a shin of door,

710
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 2: you know. And these are people who were you know,

711
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: they were just south of Washington, d C. And they

712
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: were talking about, you know, penetrating deep into the American interior.

713
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: At the very time that they would be doing that

714
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: and talking about going back home, you know, I'm sitting

715
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: around drinking, drinking port smoking cigars at the very times

716
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: that they're talking about going to the far West, there

717
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: might well have been Indians in central Kansas reminiscing about Paris.

718
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: The Women's So it's so that's that's the kind of

719
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 2: thing that I'm talking about. The larger the larger context

720
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: Lewis and Clark were not entering this plate of Lewis's

721
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: famous quote, you know when they set off, and that's

722
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: from the Mandan villages, you know, the and where the

723
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: foot of civilized man has never trodden. No, there's been

724
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: a lot of trotting going on before that.

725
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: What do you think was the biggest at the time

726
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark were encountering on the northern plains, tribes

727
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: and and you know, in all fairness, they encountered people.

728
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: They encountered people who hadn't directly interacted with euro Americans

729
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: or Europeans.

730
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: Person example, and this person listen, Clark with the first

731
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: white people the this person had.

732
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 1: Met yet they had horses. So what what do you

733
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: think was the biggest prior to the actual arrival of

734
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: what was use Europeans. I guess, prior to the rival

735
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: of Europeans, this thingy iwa think about we had these

736
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: there's these three huge impacts that that that preceded the

737
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: actual presence of Europeans would be horses, metal and disease, right,

738
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: I mean, would you is that a fair statement? And

739
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: of those which do you think when when Lewis and

740
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: Clark was a contact people. Which of those influences was

741
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: most was probably most impactful in shaping what they experienced

742
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: as you.

743
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: Know Native America at that time.

744
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, at that horses horses, like they were seeing something

745
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: different than what had been.

746
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,479
Speaker 2: That's right, well, and disease, you know, Lewis and Clark

747
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: arrived when they when they go up through North Dakota

748
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: what's today North Dakota, they talked about coming across these

749
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: abandoned villages, a place called Double Ditch today. Well, those

750
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 2: were abandoned because of smallpox that had appeared seventeen eighty,

751
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: you know, twenty years more than twenty years before they

752
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: were there devastated. There is, twenty thousand Indians in the

753
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest died of smallpox because of it. That epidemic

754
00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: this started in the east, highly influential with the of

755
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 2: the revolution. One of the reasons that we were able

756
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: to hold off against the English is the English troops

757
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: are devastated, you know, by malaria and by smallpox. So

758
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 2: that was a great influence that preceded that preceded them.

759
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: But so of course is maybe at least as much.

760
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: In fact, there's a connection there. Smallpox, of course have

761
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 2: been in the western hemisphere for a long form, the

762
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 2: very early period, from the period of period of Cortez,

763
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: and it made its way all the way under the

764
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: American Southwest quite early. And so the sept peoples of

765
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: the Southwest, Comanches and Apaches and Navajoes and others, have

766
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: been devastated by smallpox for decades, decades before Lewis and Clark.

767
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: But in seventeen eighty it swept up from the south

768
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: out of Mexico and went from the east coast down

769
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: to Mexico and then up into up into the Americas,

770
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: and it hit the southwest again. But then then it

771
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 2: goes all the way up the Missouri Valley, it goes

772
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: all the way in the Pacific northwest, devastating, devastating the

773
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 2: Indians there. Why why then, and not before horses courses smallpox.

774
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: When you catch smallpox, we have about ten days to

775
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 2: transmit it to another person. So when it arrived first

776
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: in the Southwest early on, people's natural response was to panic,

777
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: run away, run away, right, But it's literally running. They're

778
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: on foot, and they by the time they reach these

779
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: you know, virgin soil. By the time they reach people

780
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: who have never been infected by this they're dead or

781
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: they can no longer pass it along. So it was

782
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: the slow movement of these people out of the southwest

783
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: that that allowed the people farther north to be free

784
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: of it. Then they came than the horses. Yeah, horses

785
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: spreading first, that are around sixteen eighty, But by seventeen eighty,

786
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: seventeen eighty, the horse cultures had flourished all the way

787
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 2: had developed and flourished all the way across what's today,

788
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, the far away with the great planes in

789
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: the Pacific Northwest. And so people now when they panic

790
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: and they flee, they're doing it on horseback. And the

791
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: horses allowed the transmission of smallpox and other diseases in

792
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: ways that had never been before. So the horse, in

793
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: that sense, you know, one on the one had a

794
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 2: great benefit to these people, allowed them to revolutionize their life,

795
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: you know, to this huge burst of power and creativity

796
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 2: and expansion. But it also killed them.

797
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking about as you talked about

798
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: that is the COVID exactly, COVID in the airplane.

799
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, you know, exactly right.

800
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: You could have an epidemic go from isolated to global,

801
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: and I don't know month.

802
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: Weeks really in thinckt I've I've written a recent article

803
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: on that, comparing uh the covid epidemic today to the

804
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: cholera epidemics in the in the nineteenth century and making

805
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: exactly that exactly that point. So this is really what

806
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: I was talking about a moment ago about the horses

807
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: in smallpox. That's really one step in what has of

808
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: course become increasingly a fact of life. We're talking about

809
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: the shrinkage, the effective shrinkage of the world through transportation.

810
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: Horses were an important part of that. But that shrinkage

811
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 2: of course continues. So these poor folks in Wuhan, China

812
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,959
Speaker 2: catch this disease, however they got it, uh three weeks

813
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: later it's in uh it's in the seattle. Yes, it's

814
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: just really quite astonishing, and you see it, of course

815
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: over and over over West Nile virus just you know,

816
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: name a disease that just hit this country in the

817
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: last one hundred and fifty years, and that's how it

818
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: got here.

819
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's an interesting point. The way the

820
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: horses did that. Do you think that we've talked about

821
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: this in the past, that the way so horses being

822
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: introduced by the Spanish. Was in your view, was that

823
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: incident the Pueblo Revolt? Was that really in your mind?

824
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: Was that really sort of the beginning of the spread

825
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 1: of horses to all the nomadic what would become the

826
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: nomadic bison, you know, the equestrian buffalo hunting tribes of

827
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: the of the Great Plains. Like do you think if

828
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: the Pueblo Revolt hadn't happened, would that have been delayed

829
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: significantly by one hundred years? Or it seems like a.

830
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 3: Very tidy, Yeah, neat and tidy explanation.

831
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It isn't it isn't It clearly had

832
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: a very important impact that there had been the spread

833
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: the horse. Horses had spread before sixteen eighty, but it

834
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: was very localized command you said, Nava holes had them

835
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: and used them very effectively, rating on the web levels

836
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: and in the in the Spanish, So there it had

837
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 2: sort of I think it was sort of a leakage.

838
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: You know, the Spanish worked really hard to try to

839
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: control those horses because they knew what they were. The

840
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: horses allowed people kind of mobility and the power to

841
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 2: maneuvering that they had never had before, and they could

842
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 2: be used very effectively against the Spanish, and so they

843
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: were you know, it was it was a capital offense,

844
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: the capital offense to sell a horse to an Indian.

845
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i'd read that. But ever i'd read that

846
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: they had tried that they really wanted to control information

847
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: about horses and control dissemination of horses.

848
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely true. But they you can, of course,

849
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: by the time possible, But go ahead sixteen eighty. It's

850
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: very clear. You know, the record shows very clear, very

851
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 2: clearly that after sixteen eighty, horses spread very rapidly to

852
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: the north, and they follow exactly those trading routes that

853
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: the preseed Columbus. It's just just traditional trading routes that

854
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: go up to first up through the Rockies incidentally interestingly,

855
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: then into the Pacific Northwest. Nes Purse, you know, the

856
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: Shoshotes and nis Purse had horses within thirty years of

857
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 2: the Weber revolt. Thirty years, that's incredible. And then they

858
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 2: spread from there out onto the plains. So so within

859
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: one hundred years you go forward from sixteen eighty to

860
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: seventy and eighty, horse cultures have developed everywhere in the

861
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: West that they eventually would. It's done. It's a done

862
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 2: deal in one hundred.

863
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 5: Years by the time for that they made the horses

864
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 5: made it up here to say Montana, what like, how

865
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 5: did the tribes here? What was their understanding of where

866
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 5: they came from? Like what was like they had to

867
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 5: have some story or history about where these things that

868
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 5: had never been there before.

869
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 6: Yeah.

870
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're also the traditionals develop of course about where

871
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 2: they are and quite often not universal, but quite often

872
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: it's sort of a gift from God. And they're described

873
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 2: as things like uh uh, like elk dogs, elk dogs

874
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: because like an elk, they're big and powerful, right like

875
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: a dog. They're domesticated. That's so I say, elk dog.

876
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, but there was there is no knowledge of them

877
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 5: coming into some other culture, some other place.

878
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: Just eventually there were It's quite clear where they're coming from.

879
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: You once once it develops Lewis and Clark when they

880
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: meet the Shoshone, that famous meeting, you know, where Chicagoya

881
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: meets her brother and they're starving for horses. They have

882
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: to have horses. They gone with canoes up the Missouri,

883
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: you know, and to the to the to the what

884
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: to get down the other side. They've got to have horses,

885
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: and so the Shoshones were obvious sources and once they

886
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: met them. But if you read those journals, during their

887
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: meeting with the Shoshonees, they report seeing Spanish brands on

888
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,919
Speaker 2: some of the world. These are horses that notre live

889
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 2: from the They weren't simply descendants of horses that have

890
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: been spread northward. They had they had those particular horses

891
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: had come from New Mexico. Seriously, Yeah, so this is

892
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: a you know, it's a very vigorous vigorous Uh.

893
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: That's so weird. I've never I feel like that'd be

894
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: like am that'd be like a real talked about aspect

895
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: of Lewis and Clark. I never heard that.

896
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: It's true. Just read read the journalis Yeah.

897
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: Spanish brands horses, horses up there.

898
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 2: Ye huh in this case Montana.

899
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: You know, I want to stay on a little bit

900
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: of this. I want to talk to you. You've written

901
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: a lot about mining. I want to talk about gold

902
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: rushes and mining too, but I want to stay on

903
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: this theme for a minute here. And you have a

904
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: new book out which I have where is it sitting

905
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: right in front of me? Continental Reckoning, huge book. It

906
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: is yeah, the American West and the age of expansion.

907
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: I make a habit, unlike most hosts. I make a

908
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: habit of saying I read it, or I didn't read

909
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: I haven't read it. However, I read the index and

910
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 1: then use that to go in and check little certain

911
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: things out. And I got to last that I was

912
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: land never reading some passages you had about the Indian

913
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: Wars in the West, and you kinda you treat it

914
00:51:53,480 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: as victory there for the victory there for America was

915
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: just a certainty. And not only that, but we talked

916
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: about what we spent on the Indian Wars relative to

917
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: other military endeavors. The human cost of the Indian Wars

918
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: relative to other military endeavors really puts into perspective, meaning

919
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: we you know, the Union, I can't remember what you had.

920
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: I should find I should have taken a better note.

921
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: But I mean the Union in a day in the

922
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: Civil War, would I think that maybe this is how

923
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: this support whatever you use. There were certain days during

924
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: the Civil War the Union lost more soldiers and they

925
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: were going to use than they were going to lose

926
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: in the Indian Wars of the West.

927
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: That's right, and Tetam of course which is the bloodiest

928
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 2: battle of the Civil War, the bloodiest battle in American

929
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 2: history in terms of losses. Now, this is strict, this

930
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: is just on the Union side. Just didn't We're not

931
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: talking about the Confederates. The Union lost more men in

932
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 2: in this two square mile area over about nine hours.

933
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 2: Then they lost over thirty years and two million acres

934
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: square miles in the far West.

935
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: That it just blows mica the amount of mental energy

936
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: I have spent on the amount of mental energy I've

937
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,439
Speaker 1: spent on how Coster managed to get a couple couple

938
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: hundred guys killed one day, and then you go and

939
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: look at the Antietam like that'd be like a better

940
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: place to spend your time. It's like, not how did

941
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: a guy lose a couple hundred, but how do you

942
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: lose thousands of people?

943
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right in a blink of an eye.

944
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, but really it does it occupies this like I

945
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I know they're big Civil War buffs,

946
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: but just it's see, I guess because it went on

947
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: so long. But you tell me, you kind of painted

948
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: like it was sort of a light lift and ere

949
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: that you get into. No, I mean just because the

950
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: numbers like I didn't realize you were saying. You had

951
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: to think that by the time some of the I

952
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: think it was by the time a little Big Horn

953
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: or by the time of the Nez Perce War in

954
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest, whites outnumbered Indians sixty to one. I mean,

955
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: it was just I guess some of these statistics put

956
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: in the perspective that it was probably not a thing

957
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: like will we win. It's just like how quickly will

958
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: we do this? Like how quickly will we perform this

959
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: thing where we've set out to do? Yeah, you know,

960
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: and it wasn't a when you just look at the

961
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: numbers of people moving into the west, it was just overwhelming.

962
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,959
Speaker 2: That's that's the point of course that I was trying

963
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: to make there. Indians in the Far West were defeated.

964
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: The military came in, you know, when things got really

965
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 2: nasty and they had to step in. There was any

966
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: other way to avoid it, to control this particular group

967
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: of Indians. Most of of course didn't resist, like the

968
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: Lakotas or commanities, realtives. Most just sort of, you know,

969
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: saw riding on the walls. Okay, you know, we'll deal

970
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: with it. But if you look at in those terms.

971
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: Indian wars are just I like I use a metaphor

972
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: of an Indian war. Indian wars were like a period

973
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 2: at the end of a long paragraph. Wasn't the paragraph?

974
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: The paragraph was this this juggernaut of settlement that comes.

975
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: In, Yeah, and then like like you mentioned the disease issue,

976
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: and then I was just like depopulating people and taking

977
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: and eliminating cultural structure, eliminating cultural memory, and then you

978
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: have this fragment that just gets overwhelmed by immigration.

979
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: Right, that's right. And I think I mentioned before the

980
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,959
Speaker 2: need to put this in the larger context of environmental history,

981
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: because what this was in these years, the period that

982
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 2: I cover here, which is about eighteen forty eight or

983
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: fifty two, about eighteen eighty was the greatest environmental transportation transformation,

984
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 2: uh convulsion by far in American history. And I would

985
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 2: argue that there are very few times in world history,

986
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, when an area that large have been so

987
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: completely transformed, so so massively trans environmentally transformed. And that

988
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 2: means of course that the whole, the whole way of

989
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 2: living that Indians had had before that, you know, was uh,

990
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 2: the legs were cut out from it.

991
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 3: Root.

992
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 2: You can't if you're if you're a hooting gathering people

993
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: in California, just.

994
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: The environmental destruction.

995
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, we just remake it. And you know we uh,

996
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: the elimination of the bison and replacement of the replacement

997
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: by by cattle, by ranching. You know, that's that's an obvious,

998
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 2: dramatic example of it. But that could be that story

999
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: could be told over and over and over and over

1000
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 2: throughout the throughout the far West. We simply transformed. We

1001
00:56:55,840 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 2: we remake the world environmentally when they come in, not

1002
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 2: just a number of people, it's this you make a

1003
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: new world. And this world is not the world that

1004
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: Indian people's had had been living in for generations, uh

1005
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: and knew how to deal with and how to support themselves.

1006
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 7: It's over.

1007
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: You know, what are you going to do? There's there's

1008
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: nothing you can do.

1009
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see your point, even outside of the US

1010
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: military involving themselves in certain issues like what really can

1011
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: be done?

1012
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: Nothing? Yeah, we've had to be overwhelmed.

1013
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 6: You.

1014
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: We've had Dan Florees on the show a couple of times,

1015
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: and he made a point about wildlife. Wildlife in the

1016
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: West specifically, which he spends a lot of his energy

1017
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: on and career, on and and telling the story about

1018
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: the destruction, He'll say, I've looked for it globally and

1019
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: and globally, I can find nothing that compares to the

1020
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 1: destruction of wildlife. That's right, and that occurred in the

1021
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: American wise.

1022
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this wonderful new book of dance, of course, wild

1023
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 2: New World. He makes that point over and over and over.

1024
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've looked.

1025
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: It's not there, not there, It's just And that's that's

1026
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 2: an aspect of what I what I was just talking about.

1027
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, what, uh is it fair to say that you're

1028
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: that's first book the last? The Last Indian War? Is

1029
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: that the name of the book?

1030
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 2: Yes?

1031
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: I remember that, right, I read it years ago. Uh,

1032
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: lay that out for us. Why why do you feel that,

1033
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, why that name? What's the significance of that

1034
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: as the last one?

1035
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: I should start by saying that I am terrible coming

1036
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 2: up with titles, absolute absolute worst.

1037
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: You know, so I make titles for things don't even exist.

1038
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: I bet they're better than my uh my editor at

1039
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 2: the Oxford guar To Press came up with that. I thought, oh, yeah,

1040
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: that's a good I called it. First of all, because

1041
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 2: I think it was. If you think of a war,

1042
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 2: you know, as a as an ongoing conflict between massed forces,

1043
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 2: it was, but there was no other Indian war in

1044
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 2: the far West like that that fits said definition, because.

1045
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: The feeding eighteen seventy seven, is that right.

1046
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: Eighteen seventy seven. Yeah, it fighting goes on, of course,

1047
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 2: like in the southwest of the Apaches. You know, they're

1048
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 2: not defeated until eighteen eighties. But is that a war?

1049
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's more like a police action. You know,

1050
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 2: they're they're like gangs, right, They fight for a while

1051
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: and they come back into the reservation, rest up, You'll

1052
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 2: get some food, fathen their horses, and they go.

1053
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: Back out just small groups.

1054
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, the next Perst War, you know, if

1055
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 2: you if you've forget about it, h you know, it

1056
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 2: was this ongoing, concerted effort over many months included sort

1057
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 2: of that also both sides, you know, engaging each other

1058
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: like in.

1059
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: Any seasoned civil war generals. That's right. Yeah, getting defeated.

1060
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: This purse just given I just kicked his rear. He

1061
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: was he was wounded severely wooted twice in his career.

1062
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: Once was at Seminary Ridge at Gettysburg. He was up

1063
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 2: there at that angle. You know, he was with the

1064
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 2: group you know that met the Confederates coming up and

1065
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: pick his charge, shot on the shoulder, and then he

1066
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 2: was severely wounded at the Battle of the Big Hole

1067
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 2: against the against the purse.

1068
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: Can you lay out how that? Can you lay out

1069
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: what that war was, how it started? I mean, you

1070
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: could do the big version of how it started. But

1071
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 1: then also it kind of had they had a beginning

1072
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 1: one day, right.

1073
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing to say about it

1074
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 2: is that, as I mentioned a moment ago, Lewis and

1075
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 2: Clark were the first white people, the first your your

1076
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 2: Americans for them ever to meet, and in their own minds,

1077
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 2: they they formed a treaty with the Americans, and they

1078
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: promised to keep the peace with them. They promised to

1079
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 2: fight on our side against any any common enemies, and

1080
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 2: in their own minds they kept that treaty from that

1081
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 2: on that point will be eighteen o six.

1082
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: I mean they they came to an agreement with Lewis

1083
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: and Clark, like there was an exchange of gifts, and

1084
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: they came to be like, Okay, we're good.

1085
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 7: We got a deal.

1086
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, of course, Lewis and Clark had set

1087
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 2: out there. One of the things they were told to

1088
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 2: do is to make these sorts of arrangements to them

1089
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 2: to open up trade and to sort of pacify the

1090
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: pacify the Pacific Northwest, which will allow the flow of

1091
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 2: trade up there. So they approached it with this and

1092
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 2: they said, this is what we'd like to do, you know,

1093
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 2: and the new persaid, great, that's great. Well, they don't

1094
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: have exchange gifts. The news person to this day are

1095
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:02,439
Speaker 2: will tell you that there was a child produced out

1096
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: of that treaty arrangement from William Clark, a man who

1097
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 2: grew up named Daytime Smoke, who ended up fleeing with

1098
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 2: Chief Joseph h and dying in Oklahoma. William Clark's son,

1099
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: did he Yeah, yeah, I didn't know.

1100
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: So Clark's son was in Clark's son was present for

1101
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: the Nesberust War.

1102
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: They just per se that that that's right, and they

1103
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: argue that, you know it's part.

1104
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: Of it, you know, that would put him in that

1105
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: will put him in the seventies.

1106
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, old man. And as was true

1107
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 2: of virtually what was that old man's name, Daytime Smoke.

1108
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, and he had light colored hair.

1109
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:48,919
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, he said he had light light colored hair.

1110
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 6: Uh.

1111
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: I'm a little doobie about that because, uh you know, well,

1112
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: you know Clark had red hair, and so the point

1113
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 2: was that this was and theer make a big point

1114
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 2: of that, Well, this guy had hair just like well,

1115
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: red hair of course is a recessive gene. So you

1116
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 2: only get red hair if both of your parents have

1117
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: that in their genes. Right, how in the world did

1118
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 2: this this woman have red hair?

1119
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 6: God?

1120
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 2: So anyway, it's.

1121
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: Okay, you're questioning in questioning the hair color, are you

1122
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: questioning the whole premise?

1123
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 2: No, I think there's something to it. This is a

1124
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: standard arrangement, you know, when you make a deal like that.

1125
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 2: Uh you it's like it's like royal houses in Europe.

1126
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 2: You know, the prince prince from this house marries a

1127
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: princess in that house because you're sealing this deal between them.

1128
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 2: And this is the standard standard procedure among Indian peoples.

1129
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 2: And we know, you know, in terms of producing children.

1130
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 7: Uh.

1131
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 2: Wellim Clark really got down to business once he got back.

1132
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 2: I had a bunch of kids, so he was he

1133
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: was right. But anyway, so I think the point to

1134
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 2: make here is that in the nest perseise, they kept

1135
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 2: this friendship, this treat all the way, all the way

1136
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 2: from eighteen o six up until eighteen seventy six and

1137
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 2: seventy seven.

1138
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: Never waged war against the US.

1139
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: Never did, never did. There is no record that I

1140
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: could find any of a ness person killing a killing

1141
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 2: a white person. There are plenty of records of White's

1142
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: murdering nes Purse. Didn't do it, didn't do it. And

1143
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: yet they were the other side of the Last Indian War.

1144
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 2: The Last Indian War was against those people who had

1145
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: the longest friendly kept their word longer than any other

1146
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 2: Indian group in the entire or west. That's what makes

1147
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 2: this to me a very compelling and a very heartbreaking story.

1148
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 2: The reason they did it, the reason happened, was that

1149
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 2: they were forced by Oliver Howard Uh to leave there.

1150
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: He's a civil war guy, right, He's a civil war

1151
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: he was.

1152
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 2: Was he to doe with one arm, He was the

1153
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 2: one of one arm metrized. He was well. He was

1154
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 2: a Uh. He was a dedicated abolitionist. He resigned his

1155
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 2: position teaching up in Buden College to a fight for

1156
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 2: the war to end a slavery Oliver Howard was the

1157
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 2: head of the Freedman's Bureau.

1158
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 7: Uh.

1159
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 2: After the war, he founded what is today Howard University,

1160
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 2: you know, the leading African American university.

1161
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: That's that's that's him, yeah, huh.

1162
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 2: And so after the Civil War Howard went out went

1163
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: out to the west. The next person were divided, of course,

1164
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 2: into various bands.

1165
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: Uh.

1166
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 2: Some of those bands, two of them, I think, in

1167
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 2: eighteen sixty three, had made a treaty with the US,

1168
01:05:55,400 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 2: agreeing to a much smaller reservation using the tribal holdings

1169
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 2: by ninety percent. But this is only one one or

1170
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: two bands. One band really. The other bands had never

1171
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 2: agreed to it. They had left the treaty negotiations, and

1172
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 2: you had the government said everybody, all of these bands

1173
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 2: were bound by this treaty. They let it go. In fact,

1174
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 2: Howard at some point said, leave alone. You're not bothered anybody.

1175
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 2: They're living in this country, the Wallava. You know where

1176
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: the Walala is. Yeah, they were living in the Walla,

1177
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 2: which is a beautiful, beautiful country, but very isolated. So

1178
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: there was no pressure to open this up to settlement.

1179
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 2: So Howard says, you know, let it go. And then

1180
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy six seventy seven, the government said, no, No,

1181
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 2: that's it. This treaty holds. You've all got to come in.

1182
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 2: You've got to give up your home within within six weeks.

1183
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 2: You've got to get rid of all your cattle. You've

1184
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 2: got to leave your homeland. You've got to get all

1185
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: your people together, everybody, and you've got to come into

1186
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 2: this come into this reservation. This Why they did that

1187
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 2: is an interesting question.

1188
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 1: You another passage I read in your new book, Continental Reckoning,

1189
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:26,959
Speaker 1: you talk about this, You explore this theme you're getting

1190
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: to right now, which is an inability or a lack

1191
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: of willingness on the part of US negotiators to understand

1192
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: the structures of tribal peoples and trying to impose on

1193
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:49,440
Speaker 1: them this order of that you have a that you

1194
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: have this sort of like this president like figure that

1195
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: I will talk to and they'll agree, and then that

1196
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: that sort of covers me on all of these peoples

1197
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: that we imagine being under this leadership structure, to the

1198
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: point where I know that in the Ohio River country,

1199
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: the US government once bought a chunk of ground from

1200
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 1: a tribe that didn't occupy the chunk of ground oh, yeah,

1201
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: I'll sell you.

1202
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 2: That's right.

1203
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 1: And then yeah, and then try to hold them to

1204
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 1: it and they're like, well, hold it, but we didn't

1205
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: the people that were there right, well we didn't agree

1206
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: to that. Well no, but we bought it from these

1207
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: other people. They said, they knew you.

1208
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:39,639
Speaker 7: Exactly right.

1209
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: But again and again like that that failure, you know,

1210
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: I'd say, like a lack of It's probably not that

1211
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 1: they didn't understand it. It's probably they just didn't care.

1212
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 2: I think it was a bit of both. Uh. You

1213
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 2: gotta think from the from Washington's point of view, are

1214
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 2: we really these are treating You know, a treaty with

1215
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 2: an Indian tribe is like a treaty with France, a

1216
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:05,640
Speaker 2: treaty with Germany or whatever, and it has to go

1217
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 2: through the same procedure. You have to get negotiate, it's

1218
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: got to be examined. But the Senate desk to approve it.

1219
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: Of course, are we really going to go through that

1220
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 2: whole procedure with every band in the Far West? That

1221
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 2: will work? And so I think in a very practical way,

1222
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 2: very cynical way, they said, okay, we'll just we'll just

1223
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 2: say that you have a governmental and a structure of

1224
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 2: collective authority like ours. We got a president. You got

1225
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 2: a president. We'll call him the head chief.

1226
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: And if you don't, if you don't find one, will

1227
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: find one.

1228
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,600
Speaker 2: Will and will appoint one. And that happened over and

1229
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 2: over and over and over against and that's that is

1230
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 2: what that's what's going on within this perse Joseph uh

1231
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 2: used an argument exactly like you were just saying. He

1232
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 2: uses horse. He says. It's like coming in and you're

1233
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 2: saying saying to me, we just bought your horse. No

1234
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 2: we didn't. You didn't give me way. We paid that

1235
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 2: guy over there. Well it's not his horse.

1236
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: Well yeah, the way it goes, right, Yeah, So.

1237
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 2: At any point in eighteen seventy seven, then they forced

1238
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 2: them to move into this small reservation, to give up

1239
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:31,640
Speaker 2: their homes, be crowded into this this small space, and

1240
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 2: then we're going to do it. They did it, and

1241
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 2: they came across the salmon. There's a rough this is

1242
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:39,560
Speaker 2: late spring. Salmon was up and running, you know. But

1243
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 2: they got all the people across, they got what cattle

1244
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 2: they could across there, and they were camped near the

1245
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 2: reservation on the edge of the reservation. Literally the day

1246
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: before they were required to come onto the reservation. At

1247
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:59,559
Speaker 2: that point, it finally snapped and a few young men

1248
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 2: wore who had grudges against a merchant and a couple

1249
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 2: of other whites would settle there in the in the valley,

1250
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: took off killed him. And that then was that just

1251
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 2: sort of like a you know, the match to tinder,

1252
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 2: But it was.

1253
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to say what's interesting about it, but

1254
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:24,760
Speaker 1: it's it's noteworthy that it was people that knew each other. Yep,

1255
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 1: like you're saying, I went to those sites, you know,

1256
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: but uh, it was, uh, they set out to get

1257
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: It was sort of like riding to this strange land

1258
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: and like invading strangers because they they settled grudges with

1259
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 1: people they had interacted with, of course, and in one

1260
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:48,560
Speaker 1: case had some physical disputes with I think. But the

1261
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 1: fact that that would trigger not a police action, right,

1262
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: not like arrest warrants, Well, I guess they tried to

1263
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 1: do something like that, didn't they They tried to like

1264
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:58,680
Speaker 1: arrest the people.

1265
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 2: And well, you know, like I say, when these young

1266
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 2: guys came back and it was clear what they had done,

1267
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,519
Speaker 2: they were boasting about it, you know. Uh. At that point.

1268
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 2: Then a lot more men took off and it was nasty.

1269
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 2: It was a nasty bit of business. They killed a

1270
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 2: lot of folks, that raped a lot of women. It

1271
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 2: was an ugly, ugly thing.

1272
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 3: Uh.

1273
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 2: And at that point the leadership the the council, these

1274
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 2: leaders who had argued for peace, said look, we're not

1275
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 2: gonna win.

1276
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 7: We got to go in.

1277
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 2: At that point they said, well that's it. It will

1278
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,799
Speaker 2: have to be war. Name of one of my chapters.

1279
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:35,600
Speaker 2: It was a quote from one of these councils. They

1280
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 2: will have to be war.

1281
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: This is it.

1282
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,760
Speaker 2: And then they went all after it. And as you said,

1283
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 2: they just kicked their ear. And in several places.

1284
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: It seems so so when you're looking at the country,

1285
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 1: it correct me if I'm messing this up. When you're

1286
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: looking at the country, like you imagine settlement starting in

1287
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: the east and sort of going like a wall to

1288
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: the west coast to the Pacific. But it actually did

1289
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 1: that to a sense. But it also skipped this chunk,

1290
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, skip the great planes to some measure. So

1291
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: when the nets person get in this fight with the

1292
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 1: US army, they had east. They're going east to escape

1293
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:26,600
Speaker 1: the army because they feel if they get out on

1294
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: the Great Plains.

1295
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 2: They're home free.

1296
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 1: No one's gonna care about them anymore. Because they used

1297
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 1: to go out there. They had for quite some time

1298
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: gone out there to hunt buffalo, and so they were

1299
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: sort of going what you'd imagine as going east. You'd

1300
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 1: imagine them sort of going into the eye of the

1301
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 1: storm of the US. But in their mind they would

1302
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,879
Speaker 1: move east to get away from the US.

1303
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 2: That's right. And they were long time allies with the

1304
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 2: crows Absorba people, and they what they thought was, if

1305
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 2: we can get to the crows, if we can get

1306
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 2: out of here, they'll leave us alone. We'll get over

1307
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:02,880
Speaker 2: the crow with our friends, and the crows will take

1308
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 2: us in and we'll let things settle down, and then

1309
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 2: we'll go back home. One of the fascinating aspects of

1310
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 2: his story is how the nest pers, on the one hand,

1311
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 2: were so beautifully adapted to the white presence there. This

1312
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 2: is in contradiction to what I said a moment ago.

1313
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,040
Speaker 2: Their their environment was just fine for them, and they

1314
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 2: adapted to it beautifully. They were They were very prosperous,

1315
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 2: successful ranchers. Uh they were, you know, when they took

1316
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 2: off in this cattle cattle ranchers on this long retreat,

1317
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 2: they cashed a lot of their their their valuables, including

1318
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 2: silver tea sets. Yeah they were, yeah, they were. They

1319
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 2: were wealthier than the whites in the area. You know,

1320
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 2: they had lots of resources, had lots of money, and

1321
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:54,719
Speaker 2: they have become very savvy in dealing with the whites

1322
01:14:55,439 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 2: in terms of economically economically, So the 's you've got

1323
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 2: that on the one hand, and yet on the other hand,

1324
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 2: in this larger perspective, they had this astonishingly naive view

1325
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 2: of larger white society, what of what they were really

1326
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:16,760
Speaker 2: up against. Mmmm, there's this uh.

1327
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: You mean, it's just a naive view that you would

1328
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 1: somehow get out of this a lot or.

1329
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 2: Even beyond that, you know, uh, what are we dealing

1330
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,440
Speaker 2: with here? One of the one of the counts, their transcripts,

1331
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 2: of course, of all of these negotiations with Howard and

1332
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,799
Speaker 2: these others, and one of the uh Nesbur's banned leaders

1333
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 2: nat Ju. At one point you first read it, you

1334
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:43,960
Speaker 2: think he's he's being facetious, he's being he's being uh,

1335
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 2: you know, he's being sarcastic. But I don't think so.

1336
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 2: He said, what is this? Who is who is this? Washington,

1337
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 2: you keep talking about. You keep saying. Washington says that

1338
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 2: you have this treaty, you got to do. Washington says,

1339
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 2: you go to who is that? Is it a person?

1340
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 2: Is it a house? He said, is it a house?

1341
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 2: So they, you know, on the one hand, they're so

1342
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 2: beautifully adapted to their aion environment. In the larger U,

1343
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 2: they've never the first time they become aware of the

1344
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 2: telegraph that existed was during the retreat over Lolo Pass.

1345
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 2: Was it really? Yeah, they had. The first time they

1346
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 2: ever saw or got onto a train was after the

1347
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 2: surrendery when they were taken they were taken over to

1348
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 2: the Fort Leavenworth.

1349
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: That was their first contact with the Yeah, experience, they

1350
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,559
Speaker 1: know what they were. And so when they split, they

1351
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 1: had what about twelve hundred people about that and then

1352
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 1: five six thousand horses a.

1353
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:42,639
Speaker 2: Bunch of horses.

1354
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they run this rolling gunfight and keep whipping,

1355
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:53,720
Speaker 1: repeatedly whipping Civil War generals in like battles. And then

1356
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: one of the craziest things about sort of the one

1357
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: of the craziest collisions that you have this this semi

1358
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:07,600
Speaker 1: nomadic tribe of hunter gatherers moving across the landscape and

1359
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 1: the lateness is they get to Yellowstone National Park, which

1360
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: is a park, try and get into a shootout at

1361
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:18,519
Speaker 1: Mammoth Hot Springs with tourists.

1362
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 2: It's just like it blows your mind. It's they're just

1363
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:26,680
Speaker 2: such a bizarre story. It's like it reminds me. You

1364
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:29,160
Speaker 2: don't reminds me of Uh did you ever see the

1365
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 2: movie Blazing Saddles.

1366
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 9: Oh?

1367
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, kidding the very.

1368
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 2: The very end of it, when there's a big fight

1369
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 2: uh in the in the town and somebody pumps up

1370
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 2: against this you know what turns out to be.

1371
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 1: Uh scenery, Yeah, and then falls over.

1372
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 2: Well no, no, and then they break through and it's

1373
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 2: another movie going on next door, dom Delui know.

1374
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know something about that fighting over Intohigh ninety.

1375
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 2: And that's what this feels like. You know. It's like

1376
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 2: it's like these two stories that come together in this

1377
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 2: strange ways. One of the things there, you know William Sherman,

1378
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:17,599
Speaker 2: who was head of the army in the West at

1379
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 2: that time. Uh, and of course the man who arguably

1380
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 2: was most influentially ending the Civil War, he ends up

1381
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 2: in charge of Indian policy out in the West. He's general,

1382
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 2: He's the general of the Army. He is the highest

1383
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,280
Speaker 2: ranking military officer in the United States at that time.

1384
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 2: He's on a vacation in the Yellowstone Park. So William

1385
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 2: Sherman was at the time at the time that the

1386
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 2: nest person came in. So and somebody, you know, said,

1387
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 2: oh my god, you've got these Indians coming in here

1388
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 2: who had just been, you know, just been killing our

1389
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:56,640
Speaker 2: soldiers over there, and all of a sudden, they're going

1390
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 2: in here. So they rushed to tell him, and he

1391
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 2: gets out just a day ors before they come right

1392
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 2: through there. So what if that hadn't happened. No, you know,

1393
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 2: Billy Sherman, you Winnam Sherman sitting around a you know,

1394
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 2: sipping whiskey and frowed trout. You know, some chief also

1395
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:14,800
Speaker 2: shows up.

1396
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 1: You know, soaking his feet some hot.

1397
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,200
Speaker 2: So it's you know, it's just a it's such a

1398
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:25,880
Speaker 2: wonderful story on so many levels, the macro level, you

1399
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 2: know what I'll tell you about what's going on in

1400
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 2: the United States at that time, and then the even know,

1401
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 2: the mini level, you know, the micro level where you

1402
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 2: get these astonishing little stories and quirks. You know that

1403
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:37,680
Speaker 2: things come together like that.

1404
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,080
Speaker 1: Have you read have you read. Sorry, I was just

1405
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: going to say.

1406
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 8: I think one of the more striking things about it

1407
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,760
Speaker 8: is just how sprawling geographically.

1408
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 3: It is.

1409
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,560
Speaker 8: Like I can't think of very many sort of episodic

1410
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 8: stories that start where they do and and cross over

1411
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 8: and then they're you know, through the breaks and headed

1412
01:19:58,680 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 8: up to Canada.

1413
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 3: It's like there aren't very many.

1414
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 8: I mean, there's Lewis and Clark, sure, but that's like

1415
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 8: years and years, you know, But like in terms of

1416
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,680
Speaker 8: miles covered, this story.

1417
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I try to figure out a way

1418
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 2: to illustrate that and think of it this way. At

1419
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 2: the end of the Civil War, there's this community in Virginia,

1420
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,920
Speaker 2: central Virginia, and they decide, I don't want to live

1421
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 2: out of Union. Let's get out of here. So the

1422
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 2: whole town gets together and they head west, leaving the

1423
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 2: middle of Virginia. Right. Uh, like the s verse, this

1424
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 2: this was these were just warriors, of course. These are

1425
01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:48,720
Speaker 2: the entire men, women and children, old old folks, you know. Uh,

1426
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:50,560
Speaker 2: pick up and move, pick up and go.

1427
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:52,160
Speaker 7: Uh.

1428
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 2: And the army says, no, you got to you gotta

1429
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 2: stay here. So the army's chasing them, this this small

1430
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 2: southern town, right and they're leaving. They're hidden west from

1431
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:07,599
Speaker 2: from central Virginia. If those if if that town had

1432
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 2: had had gone as far as this these as person

1433
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: did before they were caught up near the Canadian border,

1434
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 2: they would have gone from the middle of Virginia to Denver.

1435
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:25,280
Speaker 1: Are you serious? Because they did? They did thirteen hundred

1436
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,400
Speaker 1: miles or something, didn't they.

1437
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 2: Thirteen to fifteen hundred depending on how you measure it.

1438
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:32,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think just engagement after engagement after engagement.

1439
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that parallel is almost too good to be true.

1440
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 2: It is true. Unlike many things that I've written, it

1441
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 2: is in fact true.

1442
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 3: I think.

1443
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 8: I think one of the things that I remember from

1444
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 8: your from this book is you make the point that

1445
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:53,640
Speaker 8: ex Confederates and Native people are the only Americans that

1446
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 8: have had citizenship forced on them at gunpoint.

1447
01:21:57,560 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 3: Oh right, Like there's so many.

1448
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 8: I mean, one of the main points in the book

1449
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 8: is just to understand the Indian Wars as part of

1450
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 8: this bigger project of nation making. And you know, you

1451
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:14,799
Speaker 8: talk about greater reconstruction as eighteen forty five to eighteen

1452
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 8: eighty or so. Could you talk a little bit about that,

1453
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 8: like the the parallels that you see in the Indian

1454
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 8: Wars in the Civil War, because there are a lot

1455
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:28,720
Speaker 8: of interrelated questions.

1456
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, that was the larger theme of the last

1457
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,880
Speaker 2: Indian Wars. It's a great story about it. It's an

1458
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 2: amazing story itself, the whole nes person stories. It is fascinating.

1459
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 2: What I tried to argue in this book because in

1460
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 2: a lot of books written on the war.

1461
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 1: In the person, what I try to one lesson there would.

1462
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 2: Have been it is a long walk. I got tired.

1463
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 7: I just drolled it, you know.

1464
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 2: But the larger point was that this is really a

1465
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,360
Speaker 2: very revealing part of what I call the greater reconstruction.

1466
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 2: What I what I argue here is that something really

1467
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 2: important happens in the middle of the nineteenth century. We

1468
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 2: all agree on that in the middle of the nineteenth century,

1469
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 2: the national narrative shifts fundamentally onto a new track that

1470
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 2: will carry us into what we know as modern America. Right,

1471
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 2: we go up before eighteen fifty and look at America

1472
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 2: and look at in America in nineteen hundred. It's like

1473
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 2: it's like a different world. We've become a fundamentally different nation, society, people, culture, whatever.

1474
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 2: Why does that happen? What explains this traumatic shift. Well,

1475
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 2: the usual suspect, of course, and it's absolutely true, of course,

1476
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,519
Speaker 2: is the Civil War itself. Civil war typically seen as

1477
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 2: this event, you know, that moves the United States in

1478
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 2: this dramatically, in this new direction. That's obviously, of course true.

1479
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:16,560
Speaker 2: What I argue here is that expansion, the acquisition of

1480
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 2: one point two million square miles in three years eighteen

1481
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 2: forty five to eighteen forty eight.

1482
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:26,400
Speaker 1: Oh, you open your book by saying, this spasm of

1483
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:31,680
Speaker 1: expansion would be like if we right now, within a

1484
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 1: couple of years, the US annexed Mexico, Central America, portions

1485
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 1: of Brazil.

1486
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:42,599
Speaker 2: From Columbia, about half of cour Yeah.

1487
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:44,559
Speaker 1: Right, you're like, okay, so let's talk about how much

1488
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: how quickly the US grew. It has to be that

1489
01:24:47,120 --> 01:24:52,840
Speaker 1: if between now and three years from now we bought

1490
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: one basically everything south of US halfway down into South America,

1491
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,320
Speaker 1: halfway halfway through, now we're going to incorporate that.

1492
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 2: Good luck with that, right It's uh and I think

1493
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 2: it's a pretty good I think it's a revealing parallel

1494
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 2: because you know, justice, if you if you drive south

1495
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,200
Speaker 2: from mel Paso to the middle of globe, you're going

1496
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 2: to see a lot of people. You're going to see

1497
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,720
Speaker 2: different culture, different languages, different traditions, different economies and so forth,

1498
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 2: and somehow we're going to bring all of that together

1499
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 2: into this this one thing the United States. Furthermore, uh,

1500
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 2: within two hundred hours of the signing of the Treaty

1501
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 2: of Wadeloupia Dolgo, which gave us, you know, the Mexico Session,

1502
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:44,080
Speaker 2: two hundred hours before that goal was discovered in northern California,

1503
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:48,960
Speaker 2: which turned out to be the by far, the greatest

1504
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 2: gold strike, most productive goal strike in human history up

1505
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 2: until that time.

1506
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:54,680
Speaker 1: Is that coincidence?

1507
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:59,240
Speaker 2: I think it is. You know, it's it's it's a

1508
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 2: kind of fact that that is born to create conspiracy theories, right,

1509
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:09,439
Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, sure, But I don't see any evidence

1510
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 2: whatsoever that there was anything anything like. It was just pure,

1511
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 2: pure affected. The first chapter of the book I call

1512
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:19,680
Speaker 2: the Great Coincidence. This is the greatest and most influential

1513
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:22,680
Speaker 2: coincidence in American history by far, hands down.

1514
01:26:23,560 --> 01:26:25,439
Speaker 1: And they restate that to so people get this.

1515
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 2: I call the first chapter book the Great Coincidence, because

1516
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:35,040
Speaker 2: I would I think it's incontestable that this coincidence of

1517
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:40,080
Speaker 2: nine days within nine days, the United States acquiring California,

1518
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 2: acquiring the Pacific.

1519
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:41,439
Speaker 6: Uh.

1520
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 2: This is part of the end of this three year expansion.

1521
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 2: Of course, within nine days we begin to this area

1522
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:51,679
Speaker 2: begins to be revealed as the richest place on earth.

1523
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 2: It starts at the Gold Rush, but then from then

1524
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 2: all of course we discovered time after time after time

1525
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 2: after time. You know, it's like, you know, gods have

1526
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:06,400
Speaker 2: said you need something, It's there. Yeah, it's there. The

1527
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 2: West is the great treasure house of the Western hemisphere.

1528
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:15,240
Speaker 5: So think of it.

1529
01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:19,400
Speaker 2: Then think of the consequences it would follow expansion up

1530
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:23,880
Speaker 2: until let's say eighteen eighty, And you can't tell me

1531
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 2: that those were not as important, is not as consequential

1532
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 2: as the changes it came because of the Civil War.

1533
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:34,479
Speaker 2: So what I'm arguing is that we need to think

1534
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 2: of this great, this shift of the American narrative as

1535
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 2: a result of two things. The Civil War absolutely expansion,

1536
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 2: and what follows from expansion is number two. And those

1537
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 2: two things are their own stories, but they're also interacting.

1538
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 2: They're also interacting, and that's the point I think that

1539
01:27:57,240 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 2: I try to make. And the Last Newian War, what

1540
01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:04,760
Speaker 2: you can see in this story is this effort by

1541
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,920
Speaker 2: the government Washington, where there's a person or a house

1542
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 2: or whatever, Washington trying to bring into into coherence, bring

1543
01:28:14,960 --> 01:28:20,679
Speaker 2: into a singularity this extraordinary continental nation.

1544
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 1: There.

1545
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 2: They do it beforece if they have to. They do

1546
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 2: it by expanding the role of the federal government. Uh

1547
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 2: and they uh and they do it as well by

1548
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:36,479
Speaker 2: imposing a kind of order on it. Not just physical order,

1549
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:41,640
Speaker 2: but an order of who is an American? Right, what

1550
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:47,160
Speaker 2: do we mean by Americans? Well, in the East, it's emancipation.

1551
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:52,320
Speaker 2: We free one million, four million persons from bondage, and

1552
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 2: we say you're going to be citizens now. Out west,

1553
01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:01,280
Speaker 2: it's Indians, right, it's Hispanics, it's it's others out there.

1554
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:06,560
Speaker 2: We're telling them who they are. Yeah, right now in

1555
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:11,880
Speaker 2: the East, Uh, the freed people wanted citizenship. Out west

1556
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 2: not so much. Right. But the government says, Okay, now

1557
01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:19,240
Speaker 2: we're going to uh same thing you did with the

1558
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:22,040
Speaker 2: reconstruction of the South. We're going to give you land.

1559
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:25,519
Speaker 2: That is, they're going to make you farmers, right, We're

1560
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:31,800
Speaker 2: going to make you freeholders, independent family freeholders. We're going

1561
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 2: to uh teach your children, We're gonna we're gonna bring

1562
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:39,160
Speaker 2: your children in our schools, and we're going to teach

1563
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 2: them the basics. Uh, starting with the English language. Everybody's

1564
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:48,200
Speaker 2: gonna speak English, teaching the basics, including cultural basics. What

1565
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:52,519
Speaker 2: an American is, right, and this is an important part

1566
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 2: of it. Uh, Christianity. We're going to make you Christians.

1567
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 2: America will be this Christian nation, right, Oliver Howard, you

1568
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 2: know this uh, devoted evangelical Christian. He was doing that

1569
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:08,920
Speaker 2: in the south of the Freeman's Bureau, and when he

1570
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 2: went out west, he did it with Indias. Well you

1571
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:14,519
Speaker 2: say that to the you know, to former slaves, and

1572
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:18,639
Speaker 2: they say, great, we wanty citizens, We want land. We've

1573
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 2: been working your land for a long time. Give us

1574
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 2: a farm, give us forty acres and a mule.

1575
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 6: Right.

1576
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 2: We want you to educate our children. We want to

1577
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:29,639
Speaker 2: send our children at Hampton, you know, and to others.

1578
01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:29,920
Speaker 1: Right.

1579
01:30:30,320 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 6: Uh.

1580
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,120
Speaker 2: And we are we are Christians, of course, you know

1581
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 2: there's you know, Christianity was a fundamental part of slave culture.

1582
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 2: So they said, terrific. You go to the miss person,

1583
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 2: we want to make you farmers. I don't think so.

1584
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 2: Or you go to uh, you know, La Cotas and comanches. Uh,

1585
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:54,640
Speaker 2: we get a farm in West Texas could no, we

1586
01:30:54,880 --> 01:31:00,479
Speaker 2: want to educate your children. We're already educating our children, right.

1587
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 2: We want you to be Christians? No, I don't think so. Yeah,

1588
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:08,120
Speaker 2: we've got our own religions right. And the government says,

1589
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:12,600
Speaker 2: you don't understand. This is not an offer, this is

1590
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:18,760
Speaker 2: an order. You will become farmers, and we will take

1591
01:31:18,800 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 2: your children and teach them and you will become Christians.

1592
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,479
Speaker 2: That's then the basis of what happens at West when

1593
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 2: the war, when when the military does step in, it's

1594
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:33,960
Speaker 2: it's because the consequences of that, and that's what's going

1595
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,160
Speaker 2: on with the with the Ness Purse. It's that final

1596
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 2: moment when Oliver Howard steps up and says, Okay, we've

1597
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:46,000
Speaker 2: been overlooking all of us for a long time, you know,

1598
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 2: no longer. We got to do it. And that's what

1599
01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 2: that's the trigger.

1600
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 5: It sets it off with the NETS person was there,

1601
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,960
Speaker 5: like we talked about Washington and General Sherman was there,

1602
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 5: like finally a and of urgency to like this, this

1603
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,560
Speaker 5: is it, We're done with this, like we need to

1604
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:10,679
Speaker 5: establish control after decades of fighting these wars, it seems

1605
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 5: like it was like well established some stability here and

1606
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 5: then here and then like was it do you call

1607
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:20,560
Speaker 5: it the last war? Because they finally decided like this

1608
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:23,120
Speaker 5: is it, We're done Washington.

1609
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly. And that's to me, that is

1610
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 2: a really interesting question. Why these people were no trouble

1611
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 2: to them, They were living in an area that very

1612
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,680
Speaker 2: few whites wanted. Why why would you force it in?

1613
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:40,439
Speaker 1: Why?

1614
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:45,679
Speaker 2: The reason, I think an important reason was the little

1615
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:46,280
Speaker 2: big worn.

1616
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 1: You know, Brody lost some relatives that a little big one.

1617
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:55,360
Speaker 5: Is that right, there's a yeah, there's a couple like distant, distant, Yeah.

1618
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:58,600
Speaker 1: Brody's brother, my older.

1619
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh yeah. I think that that of course, was

1620
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:12,040
Speaker 2: this this terrific humiliation for the government. You know, uh,

1621
01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:14,600
Speaker 2: the boy general, you know, this the darling of the

1622
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:22,759
Speaker 2: uh uh not only gets killed, but it's it's this defeat,

1623
01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:27,120
Speaker 2: this this moment that uh. I think that was the

1624
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 2: that was the key to the government saying Okay, that's it.

1625
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:35,479
Speaker 2: Everybody everywhere, it's gotta get under our knee. You know,

1626
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 2: you've got to You've got to play by the rules. Now,

1627
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,479
Speaker 2: these are the new rules. That's the only only way

1628
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 2: I can I can think of because you look at

1629
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 2: the at the record, you know, the government suddenly just pivots.

1630
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 2: Before that, before this, they were saying, oh, well, you know,

1631
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:55,840
Speaker 2: what's the problem. It'll it'll happen eventually. We'll just sort

1632
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:56,680
Speaker 2: of kick the can down the.

1633
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:57,439
Speaker 9: Road and uh.

1634
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:00,639
Speaker 2: But all of a sudden, they all of a sudden

1635
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 2: they send word to Howard, Nope, you gotta do it.

1636
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 1: You know.

1637
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 9: That was.

1638
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 1: I was sorry about all the mental energy I've spent

1639
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:13,679
Speaker 1: on my life on the players who convened that fateful

1640
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, June twenty fifth. And I think that a

1641
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:24,440
Speaker 1: lot of historians have are argue now it's it's inescapable.

1642
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 1: It's like it's almost the definition of a pirate victory,

1643
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:35,719
Speaker 1: to the point where after the great victory at Little Bighorn,

1644
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:41,280
Speaker 1: rather than being emboldened and taking the fight to the

1645
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 1: next army, they disband like some people say, the probably

1646
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 1: the greatest gathering of planes tribes it was to ever occur,

1647
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:56,760
Speaker 1: the numerically the greatest gathering to ever occur. The next

1648
01:34:56,880 --> 01:35:01,680
Speaker 1: day they disbanded, and they're like, man, it's hell to

1649
01:35:01,760 --> 01:35:06,719
Speaker 1: pay now. They disbanded and tried to melt into the landscape.

1650
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:09,680
Speaker 1: Rather than being like, let's take Washington. You know, it

1651
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: was just oh, this is not gonna go over well,

1652
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:13,599
Speaker 1: it's not good.

1653
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 2: It's not going to go well. I agree with that absolutely,

1654
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 2: and I think that again comes back to the larger

1655
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:25,720
Speaker 2: point that I was making, that odds against them were

1656
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:32,240
Speaker 2: so overwhelming. If you fight, you're gonna lose. It's gonna happen.

1657
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 2: We caught him at this point just by luck by

1658
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:41,920
Speaker 2: This guy's a regrettable decision by and like you say, this,

1659
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:47,800
Speaker 2: this huge gathering, maybe the Fort Laramie conference, a conference

1660
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 2: at eighteen fifty might have been, might have been larger

1661
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:53,680
Speaker 2: than that. But but that was of course peaceful. As

1662
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:58,759
Speaker 2: far as in the wartime, there's nothing nothing to match this. Okay,

1663
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 2: that's today, right, what now? Well, you know they're going

1664
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:05,720
Speaker 2: to come after you.

1665
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:07,880
Speaker 1: I want to I want to hate you. With a

1666
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:10,240
Speaker 1: couple of details that came out of these is one

1667
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: of my favorite things of the perspective of the Native

1668
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:19,600
Speaker 1: American fighters at Little Big Horn. A man named I

1669
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:23,160
Speaker 1: can't remember feels gall one of them said in trying

1670
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 1: to explain the actions of the army, he said, we

1671
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:32,240
Speaker 1: just thought they were all drunk. And the.

1672
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:34,639
Speaker 2: Two men.

1673
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:39,080
Speaker 1: Were asked how long it took? How long that battle

1674
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 1: took that that day, and one of them said, gall

1675
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 1: unk Papa Sue had said it lasted as long as

1676
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 1: it takes a hungry man to eat his dinner.

1677
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 2: Wow.

1678
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:54,840
Speaker 1: Another said, I'm paraphrasing. He said, you know when you're

1679
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 1: laying in your teepee and you're looking out the chimney

1680
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 1: hole and the sun hits one of the poles at

1681
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:07,240
Speaker 1: the top, It took about as long as it takes

1682
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:12,599
Speaker 1: the sun to move past that pole. That was all

1683
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 1: on that fight was And both uh and the later

1684
01:37:17,320 --> 01:37:19,880
Speaker 1: people both said, oh yeah, they're both saying it was

1685
01:37:19,880 --> 01:37:24,640
Speaker 1: about twenty minutes. Yeah, and probably longer than that, but

1686
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: not just they're talking about the hill. The hill hill

1687
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,640
Speaker 1: were costers like there were his little gang water. Was

1688
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:44,880
Speaker 1: that that that that portion yellow Wolf the Nez Perse

1689
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 1: He later met that guy. I can't remember who the

1690
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: hell he was. Yellow Wolf met some guy that then

1691
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:53,120
Speaker 1: sat like yellow Wolf was one of the participants in

1692
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 1: the Nez Person War. He actually scaped. He's one of

1693
01:37:55,439 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 1: the very few that escaped into Canada. When they caught

1694
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 1: Chief Joseph near the border. He gave his famous from

1695
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 1: where the sun now stands, I will fight no more

1696
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:06,040
Speaker 1: forever this dude named yellow Wolf had actually slipped out

1697
01:38:06,080 --> 01:38:09,479
Speaker 1: of there, made it to Canada, later came back down

1698
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:10,160
Speaker 1: into the US.

1699
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were a few hundred who made it.

1700
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:17,200
Speaker 1: And he later met some guy that not only took

1701
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:20,880
Speaker 1: down his life history, but they went and visited a

1702
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 1: bunch of places, and yellow Wolf takes this guy. He

1703
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 1: might have been German, I can't remember. Anyways, he takes

1704
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 1: this guy to the Little Big Horn battle site, not

1705
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:31,840
Speaker 1: the Little Big Horn, the Big Horn, Big Hole, Big Hole,

1706
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:34,599
Speaker 1: in the sight of the Big Hole battle and tells

1707
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:38,519
Speaker 1: him and even shows him where it happened that a guy,

1708
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:43,439
Speaker 1: a US soldier got shot through the forehead and was

1709
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: dead standing on his feet, and they challenged him on it,

1710
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:51,080
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, he was at the end of

1711
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:56,880
Speaker 1: the battle. He was standing dead, locked knees, standing dead.

1712
01:38:58,400 --> 01:38:59,840
Speaker 1: And I can never tell if that's true.

1713
01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 2: It's it's funny. When I was writing the book, I

1714
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:07,639
Speaker 2: have several stories like that in there in that book,

1715
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:11,360
Speaker 2: and I wrestled with that. In the end, I just

1716
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:15,639
Speaker 2: told it straight on, like what yellow Wolf, yellow Wolf

1717
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:18,720
Speaker 2: and others there were. There were others like that at

1718
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 2: the Big Hole another one earlier on. Well, they were

1719
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:27,400
Speaker 2: maneuvering within their home country. There in Idaho. Uh, they

1720
01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 2: came upon a small patrol army patrol. Uh killed them all,

1721
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,519
Speaker 2: but they said there was one guy in there who

1722
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:41,679
Speaker 2: they kept shooting, kept shooting, shooting, shooting, but he wouldn't

1723
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:45,559
Speaker 2: die cleaning the head. Instead, what he did was, uh

1724
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:48,200
Speaker 2: sit on the ground and clucked like a chicken.

1725
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:53,479
Speaker 1: I remember that. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know, is that true.

1726
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 2: I don't know whom I say. I wasn't there, right, Yeah,

1727
01:39:57,680 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 2: it's certainly part of their tradition.

1728
01:39:59,439 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 1: Yellow Wolf was such an interesting dude.

1729
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 7: He had.

1730
01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:06,520
Speaker 1: He explains that he had kind of a personal obligation.

1731
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: If he encountered a grizzly, he had a personal obligation

1732
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 1: to mix it up with that bear and kill that bear.

1733
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:17,559
Speaker 2: He was a fascinating guy.

1734
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again he'd be like, oh, brother, here we go.

1735
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,880
Speaker 1: He found one he had he had to.

1736
01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:31,200
Speaker 2: Go not again. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. I begin

1737
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 2: and in the book with yellow Wolf, h end with

1738
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:39,400
Speaker 2: his deaths. Yeah, when he tells his family, I'm dying

1739
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:44,040
Speaker 2: tomorrow morning when the sun rises on the horizon, and

1740
01:40:44,160 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 2: he did, and the last thing he said is, my

1741
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 2: friends have come for me. Oh you see them right?

1742
01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 1: Oh he did. I don't know.

1743
01:40:50,520 --> 01:40:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the failure you're talking about. The name Laculis Quarter, Yeah,

1744
01:40:56,800 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 2: not a journalist Scotland and he was a He was

1745
01:41:00,280 --> 01:41:03,519
Speaker 2: a rancher out there and one day this Indian came

1746
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 2: up and his horse had been injured or pumping into

1747
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:11,320
Speaker 2: a fence. I guess a barberar fence cut it badly,

1748
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:16,200
Speaker 2: and so he asked mc quarter, will you take care

1749
01:41:16,240 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 2: of my horse? But you know, an Indian terms of

1750
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 2: course he will. You know, this is what you do

1751
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:30,360
Speaker 2: if somebody it's not your enemy, says you got an

1752
01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 2: injured horse, will you watch after him? And he said, uh,

1753
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,519
Speaker 2: he said sure, And he came back the next year

1754
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:40,080
Speaker 2: to claim his horse, and it's just fine. And they

1755
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:44,880
Speaker 2: struck up a friendship and those two men spent the

1756
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 2: rest of their lives reconstructing that story. Oh yellow Wolf

1757
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:53,559
Speaker 2: telling this to back quarter. Mcquarter's papers are at Washington

1758
01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:57,320
Speaker 2: State Archives, and I spent a long time in that

1759
01:41:57,520 --> 01:42:02,040
Speaker 2: archive going through these papers and it's uh there they're

1760
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:07,640
Speaker 2: just a a treasure because it's the only case I

1761
01:42:07,840 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 2: know of where you have such a concentrated body of

1762
01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:19,519
Speaker 2: native testimony because illowilf of taking these others. Tell him

1763
01:42:19,560 --> 01:42:21,639
Speaker 2: your story, tell him your story. So you got all

1764
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 2: of these voices.

1765
01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:27,400
Speaker 1: And I think, if I remember right, it's people feel

1766
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 1: like that that there was enough of a friendship in

1767
01:42:30,479 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 1: the mcwarder, who I couldn't remember his name, mcward was reliable.

1768
01:42:34,479 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, it became his lifelong passion that he.

1769
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:43,960
Speaker 1: Wasn't distorting, I don't think trying to capture well, obviously

1770
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 1: obviously it was very sympathetic.

1771
01:42:48,160 --> 01:42:49,840
Speaker 2: I suppose you take that. But most of what he

1772
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:52,320
Speaker 2: has in there is not his words at all. It's

1773
01:42:52,360 --> 01:42:56,240
Speaker 2: the words of the nest perse of his uh uh,

1774
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:59,280
Speaker 2: the people who's interviewing. In fact, one of the things

1775
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:04,240
Speaker 2: I ran across, uh stuff is really the collector is

1776
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:04,920
Speaker 2: really kind of a mess.

1777
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:05,160
Speaker 9: You know.

1778
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:08,280
Speaker 2: They worked a long time trying to organize it. He

1779
01:43:08,400 --> 01:43:11,160
Speaker 2: just sort of threw stuff in boxes. But I did

1780
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:16,560
Speaker 2: run across this small slip of paper that had a

1781
01:43:16,680 --> 01:43:19,360
Speaker 2: thought about something about the war, you know, something just

1782
01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:22,000
Speaker 2: sort of came to him and he wrote this thought

1783
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,800
Speaker 2: on this little slip of paper, and that was the

1784
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:28,320
Speaker 2: last thing he ever did in his life. He was

1785
01:43:28,360 --> 01:43:31,960
Speaker 2: in the hospital dying and this came to him, and

1786
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:34,360
Speaker 2: he wrote this on this slip of paper and then died.

1787
01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 1: What was what did he write?

1788
01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:46,240
Speaker 2: I don't remember dying thought sorry, but as I remember,

1789
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 2: it wasn't truly consequent. It was just something popping too

1790
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:51,240
Speaker 2: his head. It wasn't any great breakthrough or anything.

1791
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:54,840
Speaker 1: You uh, you spent a lot of your career and

1792
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 1: a lot of your writing about mining, mining town's influence

1793
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:03,200
Speaker 1: of mining. And I'm really paraphrasing, but in your book,

1794
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of more or less says, you know,

1795
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:09,679
Speaker 1: in terms of Native people's if when they find gold it's.

1796
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:13,720
Speaker 2: Old that's right, or silver that's right. Yeah, that's right.

1797
01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, lay that out a little bit like just like

1798
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 1: we're like that, that thirst for gold. Yeah yeah, why

1799
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:21,840
Speaker 1: is that? You know, you hear about gold in the

1800
01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:25,640
Speaker 1: Black Hills, California gold Rush, you Alaska gold Rush. Just

1801
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:29,760
Speaker 1: really transformative, really transformative events. Yeah.

1802
01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 2: Uh well, a couple of uh, you know, a couple

1803
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:35,840
Speaker 2: of reasons are I think are sourve event when you

1804
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:42,240
Speaker 2: think about it. First of all, there's no greater motivation

1805
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 2: motivator in American history than in a gold discovery. Nothing

1806
01:44:48,439 --> 01:44:53,320
Speaker 2: like that can can put people to the action. So

1807
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:56,960
Speaker 2: quickly on such a scale. So for the one thing,

1808
01:44:57,720 --> 01:45:00,839
Speaker 2: what you get is thousands of people, you know, racing

1809
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:06,759
Speaker 2: to this this particular place over a very very short

1810
01:45:07,280 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 2: span of time. Uh. Now, I mentioned before, you know,

1811
01:45:11,439 --> 01:45:15,320
Speaker 2: talk about what really defeated the Indians was the transform

1812
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:22,520
Speaker 2: environmental transformation of their homelands. Nothing did that more dramatically

1813
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 2: faster on a greater scale than a gold or a

1814
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 2: silver strike. Thousands of people come into an area that

1815
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 2: has had a fairly small these one hundred gathering people,

1816
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:35,639
Speaker 2: so we're real to be small, uh population up until

1817
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:39,040
Speaker 2: that time that are always on the move. You know,

1818
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 2: they're semi nomadic, and they're on the move because they're

1819
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:45,760
Speaker 2: they've choreographed their their life to be at the right

1820
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:47,679
Speaker 2: place at the right time. You know, we've got to gather,

1821
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:50,760
Speaker 2: got to fish the salmon at this particular month. You know,

1822
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 2: we've got to gather the camas bulbs at this particular

1823
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:55,400
Speaker 2: this particular point we've got this is when the elkmar grat.

1824
01:45:55,439 --> 01:45:58,519
Speaker 2: We got to be there, and all of a sudden,

1825
01:45:59,120 --> 01:46:04,439
Speaker 2: that world is transformed. Right while the game is hunted out,

1826
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:08,760
Speaker 2: the streams are polluted, the trees are cut, all the

1827
01:46:09,080 --> 01:46:15,320
Speaker 2: migration patterns are are totally disrupted. It's devastate, its convulsive.

1828
01:46:15,760 --> 01:46:18,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to interrupt you make to clarify another

1829
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 1: point you had said about even these huge areas, the

1830
01:46:24,479 --> 01:46:27,800
Speaker 1: specificity of some things that you would need. Meaning here

1831
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 1: you you're you're nomadic people with horses, and you live

1832
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,720
Speaker 1: in the northern climates. What do you need in the

1833
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:41,080
Speaker 1: winter right, access to timber, access to water grazing lands,

1834
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:44,840
Speaker 1: which is going to be like big riparian bottoms. And

1835
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:48,160
Speaker 1: you said, if there's a spot like that, everybody knows

1836
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 1: about it.

1837
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:48,920
Speaker 2: That's right.

1838
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:53,120
Speaker 1: It's a real vulnerability, you know. And that's the places

1839
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:54,040
Speaker 1: that other people want.

1840
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:57,680
Speaker 2: If you look at the history of Indian wars, when

1841
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:01,400
Speaker 2: when those conflicts did occur, when the well, those campaigns

1842
01:47:01,520 --> 01:47:04,080
Speaker 2: did happen, and those battles did happen, Look at how

1843
01:47:04,160 --> 01:47:04,760
Speaker 2: many of them.

1844
01:47:06,200 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 1: Take place in the winter, right, because I know where

1845
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:11,120
Speaker 1: they'll be.

1846
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:16,680
Speaker 2: And of course turn that around, when when is the

1847
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:22,200
Speaker 2: worst possible time to go up against the Indians. June

1848
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:29,559
Speaker 2: twenty fifth, eighteen seventy six, they attack attract They attacked

1849
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:30,720
Speaker 2: the Indians.

1850
01:47:30,439 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 1: All these winter massacres that they would the army would conduct.

1851
01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:35,920
Speaker 1: But then in the summertime. It's this different games.

1852
01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 2: Summertime, they choose, you know, let's let's attack them within

1853
01:47:39,320 --> 01:47:44,280
Speaker 2: two days of the summer solstice. Brilliant. It doesn't work.

1854
01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:49,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's right. It's the environmental angle of that,

1855
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:51,599
Speaker 2: you know that you have to you have to take

1856
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,840
Speaker 2: into account. But the other thing about mining rushes is

1857
01:47:58,200 --> 01:48:04,280
Speaker 2: most by far. Of course, strikes occur in mountains and

1858
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:09,360
Speaker 2: in very isolated areas, but it's a long way from

1859
01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:14,560
Speaker 2: any white settlement. What that does, you know, once you

1860
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:18,680
Speaker 2: let's strike occurs, and if it, if it proves to

1861
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 2: be worth it, what you do is immediately get this

1862
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:29,120
Speaker 2: great movement into those places, which in turn is key

1863
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:32,680
Speaker 2: to opening up the interior west UH to transportation, to

1864
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:36,880
Speaker 2: access of others. So it creates these it's in other words,

1865
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 2: it's not a you mentioned before. The frontier is like

1866
01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:45,280
Speaker 2: a moving wall, right, that's the agricultural frontier. It's not

1867
01:48:45,360 --> 01:48:49,360
Speaker 2: the way, not the way the mining frontier works. It's

1868
01:48:49,439 --> 01:49:01,600
Speaker 2: it's the image I have is artillery shells you and

1869
01:49:01,680 --> 01:49:05,000
Speaker 2: then they I think it's a good image because the

1870
01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 2: sort of the concussive is the concussive rings move outward

1871
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:13,360
Speaker 2: from that you know, that's what kills them. That's what

1872
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 2: kills them. And what what it starts with with this

1873
01:49:17,280 --> 01:49:24,160
Speaker 2: is this, you know, ancient fascination with gold. It's goes

1874
01:49:24,240 --> 01:49:27,360
Speaker 2: back a long way. You know the Egyptians, you know,

1875
01:49:27,400 --> 01:49:30,880
Speaker 2: Egyptians called the breath of God gold. You know, there's

1876
01:49:30,920 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 2: something about gold that that that moves people into action,

1877
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:40,720
Speaker 2: in the movement into nothing else, nothing else can. And

1878
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 2: it turns out that we have more of it than anybody.

1879
01:49:43,040 --> 01:49:46,000
Speaker 5: Else towards gold.

1880
01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:46,880
Speaker 6: You know that.

1881
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:48,880
Speaker 2: What you hear, of course is they didn't care much

1882
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 2: about it. That's not true.

1883
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:50,720
Speaker 7: Uh.

1884
01:49:51,479 --> 01:49:54,800
Speaker 2: In fact, there's a one very good a book that's

1885
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 2: being worked all the time. I've been madly uh in California.

1886
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:01,439
Speaker 2: He wrote a book, American Genocide. You know that book.

1887
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 2: I haven't read it, but yeah, about California. And Ben

1888
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:09,080
Speaker 2: is writing now on Indians and the gold rush. Once

1889
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:12,920
Speaker 2: the strikes occur, they jump into it with both feet.

1890
01:50:14,320 --> 01:50:17,120
Speaker 2: Before that, I don't know, you know, I think they're

1891
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:19,559
Speaker 2: just sort of sort of curiosity. They knew it was there,

1892
01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:21,760
Speaker 2: but they didn't, you know.

1893
01:50:21,840 --> 01:50:25,719
Speaker 1: And and Ian Frasier's Great Planes, he tells the story,

1894
01:50:26,000 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 1: maybe it's an apocryphal story.

1895
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:27,680
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1896
01:50:27,880 --> 01:50:29,640
Speaker 1: He tells a story about I think it was the

1897
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:35,519
Speaker 1: Blackfeet finding bags of gold on a keel boat or

1898
01:50:35,560 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 1: some boat that they catch, they capture it, and they

1899
01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 1: like the bags and leave the gold dust laying on

1900
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:45,479
Speaker 1: the gravel.

1901
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:48,600
Speaker 2: Bara, I've read heard that story. Well, I've read the

1902
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:50,320
Speaker 2: book that I don't remember that story anything.

1903
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:52,559
Speaker 1: I'd love to know if that's true. Man, he's pretty

1904
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:55,800
Speaker 1: careful generally, you know. But that's what he said. But

1905
01:50:55,920 --> 01:50:58,720
Speaker 1: I got I got a practical gold rush question. I mean,

1906
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: I kind of know the answer, but be interested to

1907
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:02,280
Speaker 1: see if you could explore it for a minute. Is

1908
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:07,000
Speaker 1: if you tell me right now that oh so and

1909
01:51:07,120 --> 01:51:11,240
Speaker 1: so just found a ton of gold in Nebraska, Okay,

1910
01:51:12,800 --> 01:51:17,599
Speaker 1: I would think, oh, well, that's a guy's land. Good

1911
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:20,120
Speaker 1: for him. I wouldn't think I'm gonna run over and

1912
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:23,160
Speaker 1: get a bunch of it. What are the factors that

1913
01:51:23,200 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 1: it would be that that you could hear about.

1914
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:29,799
Speaker 2: This in wherever the hell you're at, Philadelphia, wherever.

1915
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:37,120
Speaker 1: And and have some plausible idea, like some rational idea

1916
01:51:37,200 --> 01:51:40,599
Speaker 1: that you would go there and then that you would

1917
01:51:40,680 --> 01:51:41,840
Speaker 1: get to pick some of it up.

1918
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:42,720
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?

1919
01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:46,280
Speaker 1: Like, how is this in terms of just the land

1920
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 1: ownership and the claiming it, and that the government, you know,

1921
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:52,560
Speaker 1: whether or not they occupy it, the US has a

1922
01:51:52,640 --> 01:51:56,200
Speaker 1: sort of claim on it. How is it that you're

1923
01:51:56,320 --> 01:52:00,600
Speaker 1: gonna go and get some for yourself advertising? How do

1924
01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:02,639
Speaker 1: you get like where does that idea enter your head?

1925
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:04,920
Speaker 1: I would never think if someone said, oh, so and

1926
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:06,800
Speaker 1: so found a bunch of whatever, I would never be

1927
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:07,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to go and take some.

1928
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:12,280
Speaker 2: Well, I'll think, first of all, again with a spansion,

1929
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:16,400
Speaker 2: the idea is, it's not Nebraska, it's not a farm.

1930
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,760
Speaker 2: It's this place that we just got, I mean, half

1931
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,960
Speaker 2: an hour ago, right, brand new, right, and it's could

1932
01:52:25,000 --> 01:52:28,519
Speaker 2: not be farther away from me than and still still

1933
01:52:28,560 --> 01:52:30,439
Speaker 2: be the jay in the United States. So I can

1934
01:52:30,520 --> 01:52:36,240
Speaker 2: imagine anything whatever I want to happen, that's gonna happen. Right.

1935
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:36,840
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1936
01:52:38,439 --> 01:52:42,240
Speaker 1: It's just like such a strange understanding of how you'd

1937
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 1: even get a sense of the spatial characteristics of where

1938
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:47,960
Speaker 1: the stuff is. But to like bet your.

1939
01:52:48,040 --> 01:52:50,880
Speaker 2: Life on it, A lot of them did, and some

1940
01:52:50,960 --> 01:52:52,280
Speaker 2: of them lost the.

1941
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:57,680
Speaker 5: Was there any government guidance like if you're going this

1942
01:52:57,840 --> 01:52:58,240
Speaker 5: is how you.

1943
01:52:58,240 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 2: Want to do it? Or was it us word of mouth,

1944
01:53:01,439 --> 01:53:03,840
Speaker 2: and well you you got to remember it now, Uh,

1945
01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:08,680
Speaker 2: the gold rush of eighteen forty eight forty nine. There

1946
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:11,519
Speaker 2: have been over a migration before that at the Oregon

1947
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:14,920
Speaker 2: and to California after the Oregon country out to the

1948
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:22,320
Speaker 2: you know, central Valley, Sutter and so they knew the way, uh,

1949
01:53:22,520 --> 01:53:24,760
Speaker 2: and the way it was was well marked. By this

1950
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:28,200
Speaker 2: time they were starting to have the stores along along

1951
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:32,479
Speaker 2: the overland route. So how to get there was not

1952
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:36,679
Speaker 2: it was not really much of a mystery. The mystery

1953
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:38,960
Speaker 2: was once you get there, how do you deal with that?

1954
01:53:39,920 --> 01:53:42,240
Speaker 2: How do you how do you mind? Yeah, it's ever

1955
01:53:42,360 --> 01:53:45,680
Speaker 2: ever occurred to you? I think is part of the question. Oh, yes,

1956
01:53:45,760 --> 01:53:47,680
Speaker 2: you're asking. You know, you're a you know, you're a

1957
01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 2: you're a clerk in in Cleveland, Ohio, and you're gonna

1958
01:53:53,120 --> 01:53:55,160
Speaker 2: go to California. You're gonna mind gold? Really?

1959
01:53:55,240 --> 01:53:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna be You're gonna be a placid miner.

1960
01:53:57,280 --> 01:53:59,920
Speaker 3: Or yeah, you're a tender.

1961
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 2: Reminds me of a Jethro Bodine in the Beverly hillbillage,

1962
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:08,760
Speaker 2: I mean an atomic brain surgeon. He said, you know.

1963
01:54:11,439 --> 01:54:11,960
Speaker 7: What you know?

1964
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:16,400
Speaker 2: Well, the people who taught them, of course, were the

1965
01:54:16,479 --> 01:54:21,080
Speaker 2: Mexicans in the South Americans. There have been gold gold

1966
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:26,040
Speaker 2: mining in Peru and in Chile, in Mexico. So one

1967
01:54:26,040 --> 01:54:28,000
Speaker 2: of the things that I right about in the book,

1968
01:54:28,280 --> 01:54:31,000
Speaker 2: I think that most people don't think about are the

1969
01:54:31,080 --> 01:54:37,560
Speaker 2: forty eight Know, the discovery was made in late January

1970
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 2: eighteen forty eight. That discovery was not confirmed in the

1971
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:43,880
Speaker 2: East until the following December.

1972
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:47,200
Speaker 1: Got it forty eight.

1973
01:54:47,480 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 2: So consequently the Great Russias in forty nine. But by

1974
01:54:50,440 --> 01:54:54,320
Speaker 2: that time, of course, there were people mining gold out

1975
01:54:54,320 --> 01:54:59,840
Speaker 2: there from Mexico, from Chile, from Peru. Yeah, sure, from Australia.

1976
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:05,600
Speaker 2: There were Australians there. There were Tasmanians before the fort

1977
01:55:08,040 --> 01:55:10,680
Speaker 2: and so these guys forty nine ers come out there

1978
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:13,320
Speaker 2: and they say, one of the people, you know minding

1979
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:18,600
Speaker 2: our gold, right, you're good. But they learned from him

1980
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 2: and from all the all the evidence of the South

1981
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:25,560
Speaker 2: Americans who were there were very generous showing him how

1982
01:55:25,600 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 2: to do it, you know. So they learned from the

1983
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 2: forty eight ers, and then they kicked him out. Of

1984
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:31,879
Speaker 2: course they're expelled.

1985
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:37,640
Speaker 1: You know, we had you and I both have some

1986
01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:42,880
Speaker 1: lines and safd for interviews and ken Burns's uh, his

1987
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:48,680
Speaker 1: his forthcoming The American Buffalo documentary, and uh, following that

1988
01:55:48,800 --> 01:55:50,680
Speaker 1: we had, I had occasion to interview him on this

1989
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:55,520
Speaker 1: podcast along with his colleague Dayton Duncan, who your personal

1990
01:55:55,560 --> 01:56:00,320
Speaker 1: friends with. Yeah, And in talking to Dayton Duncan, it

1991
01:56:00,400 --> 01:56:02,120
Speaker 1: occurred to me that even though I thought I had,

1992
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 1: I had not watched The dust Bowl. I thought I did,

1993
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:07,040
Speaker 1: but I was like, you know what, I actually didn't.

1994
01:56:07,600 --> 01:56:10,080
Speaker 1: So I just recently went and watched The dust Bowl.

1995
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 1: And speaking of human migrations the as much as we

1996
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, earlier I kind of talked about there's these

1997
01:56:19,880 --> 01:56:22,840
Speaker 1: things in American history that absorble out of mental energy,

1998
01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:27,560
Speaker 1: and sometimes our fascination with them makes them seem overplayed

1999
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:35,960
Speaker 1: in terms of actual impact. Perhaps far more people fled

2000
01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 1: the dust Bowl, okay, which they in that documentary that

2001
01:56:41,120 --> 01:56:46,040
Speaker 1: described as the greatest human cause environmental tragedy in US history.

2002
01:56:47,800 --> 01:56:50,480
Speaker 1: Far more people fled the dust Bowl and went to

2003
01:56:50,560 --> 01:56:56,360
Speaker 1: California than ever went over the Oregon Trail. But we

2004
01:56:56,720 --> 01:57:03,160
Speaker 1: just don't when looking at how the country took shape, right,

2005
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:06,360
Speaker 1: you don't go and look at that. No, No, like

2006
01:57:06,520 --> 01:57:13,080
Speaker 1: for that episode of people leaving Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico,

2007
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:14,560
Speaker 1: southern Colorado.

2008
01:57:14,800 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 2: That's true.

2009
01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:21,320
Speaker 1: Who got all got billed as Oaki's right, all got

2010
01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: lomped into?

2011
01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a real canard.

2012
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:28,200
Speaker 1: And and it was it dwarfed the Oregon Trail traffic.

2013
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:32,360
Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that. I did watch that. I don't

2014
01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:35,000
Speaker 2: I don't remember that quote, that statistic, but it makes sense.

2015
01:57:35,040 --> 01:57:35,280
Speaker 7: Of course.

2016
01:57:35,320 --> 01:57:39,400
Speaker 2: The population is a lot of parts about. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2017
01:57:39,720 --> 01:57:43,080
Speaker 2: it was. They're all you know, American history has all

2018
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:45,920
Speaker 2: kinds of stories like that that we don't. We don't

2019
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:49,400
Speaker 2: pay enough attention to the great migration out to California

2020
01:57:49,520 --> 01:57:50,280
Speaker 2: in World War two.

2021
01:57:51,360 --> 01:57:53,920
Speaker 1: Oh, I've paid zero attention to that.

2022
01:57:54,120 --> 01:57:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, including among blacks. You know, when you say the

2023
01:57:58,680 --> 01:58:01,440
Speaker 2: great migration among afric In Americans, you're.

2024
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 1: You're usually crucially to the industrial north.

2025
01:58:04,320 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 2: That's right leaving you know, as as cotton cultivation was

2026
01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:12,120
Speaker 2: was mechanized, this flight up to the Chicago into the

2027
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 2: area there. But then there was a second one that

2028
01:58:16,040 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 2: was in the twenties World War two, you know, with

2029
01:58:19,240 --> 01:58:21,960
Speaker 2: the uh boom of a defense industries and so forth

2030
01:58:22,120 --> 01:58:24,600
Speaker 2: on the on the Pacific coast. You know, jobs are

2031
01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:27,320
Speaker 2: waiting and a lot of poor black folks in the

2032
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:29,040
Speaker 2: South you know, and they came out there. So the

2033
01:58:29,080 --> 01:58:32,080
Speaker 2: you know, the origins of the black presence presence on

2034
01:58:32,080 --> 01:58:34,240
Speaker 2: the Pacific coast. You know, it goes back to World

2035
01:58:34,240 --> 01:58:36,560
Speaker 2: War Two. Well, we don't, we don't think about.

2036
01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:41,080
Speaker 1: It because I brought that up. Let's close on if

2037
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:44,960
Speaker 1: you don't mind, give me some of your thoughts on uh,

2038
01:58:45,160 --> 01:58:47,480
Speaker 1: give me some of your thoughts on on bison and

2039
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:53,360
Speaker 1: the broader story of of you know, the near extermination

2040
01:58:53,480 --> 01:58:55,960
Speaker 1: of the bison just like whatever. You know, I know

2041
01:58:56,000 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 1: it's a huge question. But but areas of that saga,

2042
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:04,480
Speaker 1: meaning the destruction, the recovery, what areas within that long

2043
01:59:04,640 --> 01:59:08,800
Speaker 1: story have caught your attention or you know, yeah, where

2044
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:10,800
Speaker 1: have you spent your time in thinking about that animal?

2045
01:59:11,080 --> 01:59:14,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think I've written a fair amount on that.

2046
01:59:17,400 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 2: What really interested me was, once again, the larger context

2047
01:59:21,160 --> 01:59:26,520
Speaker 2: of it and the complexity complexity of it. I think

2048
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:30,840
Speaker 2: we are mesmerized by this image of the buffalo hunters,

2049
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 2: of the white you know, high hunters, the buffalo runners.

2050
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:37,000
Speaker 2: Of What we tend to forget was that the bison

2051
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:41,520
Speaker 2: population was to had probably declined something like half from

2052
01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:44,960
Speaker 2: the eighteen twenties until eighteen seventy two. Or so when

2053
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 2: that starts and the decline comes partly from an environmental change,

2054
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:53,280
Speaker 2: as I said before, the overland trails which destroyed these

2055
01:59:53,360 --> 01:59:55,240
Speaker 2: habitats that the bison had to have in the winter,

2056
01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:57,800
Speaker 2: just as just as the Indians did. Part of it

2057
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 2: from Indian people's who eagerly jump into this this global

2058
02:00:04,640 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 2: market economy selling robes and tongues.

2059
02:00:07,080 --> 02:00:09,560
Speaker 1: Me and Randall had an hour long fight about this day.

2060
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, who won. But but the lesson there is

2061
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:26,400
Speaker 2: once again, how the globe is shrinking. These Indian people

2062
02:00:26,480 --> 02:00:29,800
Speaker 2: suddenly find, you know, great a lot of money and

2063
02:00:30,040 --> 02:00:34,600
Speaker 2: things and stuff because they were able to use this

2064
02:00:34,720 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 2: skill that they along had in a new way to

2065
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 2: sell these robes to people in uh in the East,

2066
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:49,080
Speaker 2: in London, you know, in Paris there there we're seeing

2067
02:00:49,120 --> 02:00:52,120
Speaker 2: there really is this the shrinkage of the globe. The

2068
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:56,640
Speaker 2: shrinkage of the globe and the expansion of modern capitalist

2069
02:00:56,840 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 2: market economy. You know, that is what that is what

2070
02:01:00,320 --> 02:01:04,880
Speaker 2: kills a buffalo, It starts to kill them. With the Indians, with.

2071
02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 5: The white hide hunters, was there like a comparable rush

2072
02:01:10,520 --> 02:01:14,240
Speaker 5: like you like with the mining towns, like a burst

2073
02:01:14,280 --> 02:01:15,640
Speaker 5: of people had a west to.

2074
02:01:15,680 --> 02:01:20,640
Speaker 2: Go do this, sure, Uh, not on the numbers or

2075
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 2: the same scale. Yeah, sure, exactly. You know, I think

2076
02:01:23,680 --> 02:01:27,320
Speaker 2: Steve was saying before we talk about this, Uh, these

2077
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:32,680
Speaker 2: were not were not you know, uh fly bonn uh

2078
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:38,840
Speaker 2: fly blown Uh monsters. These are just young men on

2079
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:41,720
Speaker 2: the move trying to make a buck, right, and this

2080
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:42,800
Speaker 2: is a great way to do it.

2081
02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:47,920
Speaker 1: So sure, sure, yeah. Just like we had talked about

2082
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:51,920
Speaker 1: with the impacts of the Civil War, like a good

2083
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 1: many of the people that got involved in that trade

2084
02:01:54,640 --> 02:01:58,920
Speaker 1: were I don't want to call them, maybe not literal

2085
02:01:59,120 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 1: refugees of the Civil War, but definitely people spun off,

2086
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:06,360
Speaker 1: people spun off by the Civil War.

2087
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean this country, this country was chaos at

2088
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:12,560
Speaker 2: the end of that war. And if you're a young man,

2089
02:02:13,480 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 2: you know, living in the South especially or or the

2090
02:02:18,080 --> 02:02:22,840
Speaker 2: north and subwly, this opportunity showed itself. Sure he did it,

2091
02:02:23,720 --> 02:02:25,480
Speaker 2: and they went on to become one of my early

2092
02:02:26,280 --> 02:02:31,120
Speaker 2: m A students wrote a book called thesis called Reconsidered.

2093
02:02:31,160 --> 02:02:34,360
Speaker 2: And what he did, Dave Dawson, what he did was

2094
02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:37,480
Speaker 2: follow these guys' lives to the extens that you can.

2095
02:02:38,160 --> 02:02:42,120
Speaker 2: These buffalo hunters, Oh really, what did they become? Bank presidents,

2096
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 2: the Kansas Historical Society, uh, sheriffs, candy salesman.

2097
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:51,760
Speaker 6: Just.

2098
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:54,880
Speaker 1: Winding up on the end of a rope.

2099
02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no, that these are perfectly perfectly responsible.

2100
02:02:59,840 --> 02:03:00,920
Speaker 2: It which makes.

2101
02:03:05,160 --> 02:03:11,720
Speaker 1: Candy businessman. No, it's it's well enough.

2102
02:03:12,880 --> 02:03:15,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it makes it makes perfect sense. What do

2103
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:17,640
Speaker 2: you think about it? You know they were just they're

2104
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:19,520
Speaker 2: just jumping into something, makes some money and they turn

2105
02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:21,040
Speaker 2: around and use the money to do something.

2106
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 3: Else and chasing opportunity.

2107
02:03:23,000 --> 02:03:23,200
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2108
02:03:23,600 --> 02:03:27,040
Speaker 2: One of the man who claims to have killed more

2109
02:03:27,040 --> 02:03:30,280
Speaker 2: bias than anybody else went on to become a cheap

2110
02:03:30,320 --> 02:03:31,440
Speaker 2: of police in Oklahoma City.

2111
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:32,280
Speaker 7: Uh.

2112
02:03:32,440 --> 02:03:35,600
Speaker 2: And then to an early filmmaker.

2113
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:37,160
Speaker 1: That Jay Wright Moore who was who knows.

2114
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:43,400
Speaker 2: There's another fellow and he and he also raised race

2115
02:03:43,480 --> 02:03:47,720
Speaker 2: horses and his favorite name Chance won the Kentucky Derby

2116
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:48,640
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety two.

2117
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:56,760
Speaker 5: Seriously, that's sorry, project, it is I feel like you're disappointed.

2118
02:03:56,120 --> 02:03:59,240
Speaker 1: With this, Steve, like you just like.

2119
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:02,440
Speaker 6: It was.

2120
02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:05,320
Speaker 1: It was just and I brought it up and I

2121
02:04:05,400 --> 02:04:10,360
Speaker 1: do not mean this as well. I think I I

2122
02:04:10,400 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 1: don't want to put any shade on the Dayton and

2123
02:04:14,520 --> 02:04:17,879
Speaker 1: ken Burns, the guys that worked on the Vice documentary.

2124
02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:21,920
Speaker 1: But when I was given my chance to comment on it,

2125
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:27,280
Speaker 1: I had a couple factual minor, very minor minor factual thoughts,

2126
02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 1: and I hadn't a thing I presented to him as

2127
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:36,800
Speaker 1: I thought that totally respectfully, I expressed that I thought

2128
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:45,080
Speaker 1: that they were really that they dehumanized the hide hunters,

2129
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:50,560
Speaker 1: and that person who was not watching carefully might get

2130
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:53,800
Speaker 1: the sense that they were motivated out, that they were sadists.

2131
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:57,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, that they were doing it purely for the joy

2132
02:04:57,560 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 5: of killing.

2133
02:04:58,160 --> 02:05:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were like I know, I'm going to dedicate

2134
02:05:00,960 --> 02:05:03,120
Speaker 1: my life to is making sure there's no buffalo in

2135
02:05:03,200 --> 02:05:09,600
Speaker 1: the future. When it was a job again and again

2136
02:05:09,960 --> 02:05:12,680
Speaker 1: you see that that you know, like the the you know,

2137
02:05:12,800 --> 02:05:15,760
Speaker 1: you know how you know, like that saying freshet eyes

2138
02:05:15,800 --> 02:05:22,080
Speaker 1: always heard that was quite There was another say there's

2139
02:05:22,080 --> 02:05:28,840
Speaker 1: another saying. There's another saying that goes, uh, I hate

2140
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:29,840
Speaker 1: the game, not the player.

2141
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:32,440
Speaker 4: That's right, they happen to be I came.

2142
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:37,000
Speaker 1: I came up that too, and and I feel that

2143
02:05:37,160 --> 02:05:40,320
Speaker 1: there's in in looking at what we just spent a

2144
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:42,760
Speaker 1: lot of time on the hide, the deer hide, the

2145
02:05:42,880 --> 02:05:45,440
Speaker 1: deer skin, you know, the earlier version of the hide

2146
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:49,440
Speaker 1: hunners was the white tailed deer runners of a century earlier.

2147
02:05:51,720 --> 02:05:55,240
Speaker 1: That you can look and say, like, man, what those

2148
02:05:55,320 --> 02:06:00,960
Speaker 1: guys did was rapacious and wanting. Yeah, But on an end,

2149
02:06:01,120 --> 02:06:05,160
Speaker 1: when you get down to the individual level, you know,

2150
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:09,560
Speaker 1: a lot of them have demonstrated a yeah I knew,

2151
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:14,000
Speaker 1: I knew, I knew, but if I didn't But to

2152
02:06:14,080 --> 02:06:16,000
Speaker 1: say that, there's this one guy, maybe it was more

2153
02:06:16,080 --> 02:06:18,040
Speaker 1: one of these guys that said I woke up in

2154
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:20,560
Speaker 1: the morning now and then and thought, am I really

2155
02:06:20,640 --> 02:06:22,680
Speaker 1: going to go do this again today? And he says,

2156
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:25,400
Speaker 1: but I would hear the shooting, right, and if I

2157
02:06:25,440 --> 02:06:26,760
Speaker 1: didn't do it, it was getting done.

2158
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:27,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2159
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:30,440
Speaker 5: And it's easy to point a finger at them as

2160
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:33,200
Speaker 5: a group because they were the last one standing when

2161
02:06:33,240 --> 02:06:36,360
Speaker 5: the bus buffalo disappeared, right, Yeah, So it's like those

2162
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:38,440
Speaker 5: guys they put a real puctuation mark.

2163
02:06:39,400 --> 02:06:46,440
Speaker 1: But I do think that that that, yeah, hating the

2164
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:47,920
Speaker 1: game and not the player, because I think a lot

2165
02:06:47,960 --> 02:06:50,600
Speaker 1: of these people were just they were just poor, desperate

2166
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:55,080
Speaker 1: people who had no thing. They had no thing, And

2167
02:06:55,160 --> 02:06:55,800
Speaker 1: if you look at.

2168
02:06:55,840 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 8: If you look at miners, yes, you know, miners don't

2169
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:04,280
Speaker 8: get the same judgment, right, And they're also yeah, you know,

2170
02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:07,000
Speaker 8: it's more indirect, it's not quite as dramatic. I think

2171
02:07:07,040 --> 02:07:10,400
Speaker 8: that's part of it is that like the near extermination of.

2172
02:07:10,400 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 3: The bison is just such a.

2173
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:18,520
Speaker 8: It's such it's such right material for like a moral story,

2174
02:07:19,400 --> 02:07:23,120
Speaker 8: whereas like we don't say, you know, these coal miners

2175
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:24,760
Speaker 8: were just doing it because they loved air pollution.

2176
02:07:25,080 --> 02:07:33,040
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, this is this is a great and

2177
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:35,400
Speaker 1: there's evil people that hated clean air.

2178
02:07:35,840 --> 02:07:40,920
Speaker 3: They could have done they could why didn't they stop?

2179
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:47,840
Speaker 2: That's that's absolutely all. That's absolutely true. Your quote that

2180
02:07:47,920 --> 02:07:50,240
Speaker 2: you often here and there was used in the documentary

2181
02:07:50,240 --> 02:07:50,840
Speaker 2: of Frank Meyer.

2182
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:52,600
Speaker 1: Meyer.

2183
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I said, I can figure that.

2184
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:55,160
Speaker 7: I figured.

2185
02:07:57,040 --> 02:08:00,280
Speaker 2: A bullllet you know, one shell. It costs me twenty

2186
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:03,280
Speaker 2: five cents. But there's one shell I could I could

2187
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 2: kill this animal and I can get back, you know,

2188
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:08,400
Speaker 2: three to five dollars, he said. So I figured it out.

2189
02:08:08,440 --> 02:08:10,400
Speaker 2: I don't figured it out and says I figured that

2190
02:08:11,800 --> 02:08:13,360
Speaker 2: I could make more money in a year than the

2191
02:08:13,400 --> 02:08:18,040
Speaker 2: president of the United States. That's what did it. It

2192
02:08:18,160 --> 02:08:20,520
Speaker 2: was the market that did it, both for the Indians

2193
02:08:20,520 --> 02:08:23,880
Speaker 2: and then then for these guys. That's what killed the bison.

2194
02:08:24,480 --> 02:08:26,760
Speaker 1: So what are you are you writing right now. This

2195
02:08:26,960 --> 02:08:32,960
Speaker 1: is a huge But dude, this is not big, This

2196
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:37,520
Speaker 1: is not generous font I will say this is probably well,

2197
02:08:37,600 --> 02:08:39,280
Speaker 1: I mean, what a massive amount of work.

2198
02:08:40,080 --> 02:08:41,040
Speaker 3: This is probably.

2199
02:08:42,600 --> 02:08:45,080
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I don't I'll write quite slowly. I mean,

2200
02:08:45,120 --> 02:08:47,760
Speaker 2: this took me. That took me twenty twenty five years

2201
02:08:47,920 --> 02:08:49,000
Speaker 2: to research and.

2202
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:52,560
Speaker 1: Ow and I feel better. Well, you've done a lot

2203
02:08:52,600 --> 02:08:53,040
Speaker 1: of books.

2204
02:08:53,240 --> 02:08:54,200
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of books.

2205
02:08:54,280 --> 02:08:57,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is probably the only podcast in the world

2206
02:08:57,320 --> 02:09:00,400
Speaker 8: that has an inside source at the ms u R Hives.

2207
02:09:01,080 --> 02:09:02,080
Speaker 7: And so I have word.

2208
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:05,160
Speaker 8: I have a word on good authority that you're still

2209
02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:08,680
Speaker 8: I was there, still digging, you're stiffing.

2210
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:09,000
Speaker 1: Around the archives.

2211
02:09:09,360 --> 02:09:10,840
Speaker 7: I was there. I was there the other day.

2212
02:09:12,320 --> 02:09:13,240
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?

2213
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:16,360
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure I'm gonna I know, I

2214
02:09:16,400 --> 02:09:18,560
Speaker 2: don't have another book me, at least not right now.

2215
02:09:18,840 --> 02:09:20,960
Speaker 2: But I like I like to write short articlests. Right now,

2216
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:25,000
Speaker 2: I'm fascinating with Arctic exploration.

2217
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I was hoping it's gonna be more ic.

2218
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:33,920
Speaker 7: Anyway.

2219
02:09:33,960 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 2: This is just a I've just started reading up on

2220
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:38,720
Speaker 2: it a lot. And uh, there was a fellow you

2221
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:42,480
Speaker 2: probably know that was Dome. You know that name he

2222
02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:46,400
Speaker 2: was at Fort Ellis UH. He was early with the

2223
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:51,160
Speaker 2: first expedition of Yellowstone, and he was in the Person

2224
02:09:51,200 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 2: War and Yellowstone, but he also signed on to UH

2225
02:09:56,800 --> 02:09:59,520
Speaker 2: as a as a part of a scheme to develop

2226
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 2: a colony up in the Arctic, up into the far

2227
02:10:03,520 --> 02:10:07,840
Speaker 2: northern UH near northern Greenland. And so this is his

2228
02:10:08,200 --> 02:10:11,480
Speaker 2: handwritten account of this expedition.

2229
02:10:11,720 --> 02:10:12,640
Speaker 4: Man, that sounds like a.

2230
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 8: Well, it's all it always seems like it's a coincidence

2231
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:19,600
Speaker 8: that these guys are doing. You know, they have a

2232
02:10:19,680 --> 02:10:22,520
Speaker 8: foot in each one of these. But as you're pointing out,

2233
02:10:22,520 --> 02:10:23,800
Speaker 8: it's all part of the same project.

2234
02:10:24,480 --> 02:10:27,920
Speaker 2: It's all part of the same thing. Yeah. Anyway, I was,

2235
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:29,880
Speaker 2: I was looking at the looking at that very funny,

2236
02:10:31,080 --> 02:10:35,800
Speaker 2: really interesting detailed description of that voyage. But the real

2237
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:40,840
Speaker 2: gem of it is is introduction when he says this

2238
02:10:41,000 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 2: is a total disaster of failure, complete failure. It says, uh,

2239
02:10:46,080 --> 02:10:49,600
Speaker 2: we did not convert or kill any Indians in any

2240
02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 2: any natives. Uh we We did not challenge the authenticity

2241
02:10:54,720 --> 02:10:59,400
Speaker 2: of any findings of anybody else. It's this literable sort

2242
02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:01,480
Speaker 2: of tongue in cheek jam the other guys who are

2243
02:11:01,480 --> 02:11:04,040
Speaker 2: going up. It's very funny.

2244
02:11:05,320 --> 02:11:10,440
Speaker 1: Well, stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, Continental

2245
02:11:10,520 --> 02:11:12,280
Speaker 1: Reckon if you want to be the guy in your

2246
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:15,800
Speaker 1: social circle who knows the most about the American West,

2247
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:21,520
Speaker 1: Continental Reckoning, the American West and the age of expansion,

2248
02:11:22,400 --> 02:11:29,680
Speaker 1: lifetime work, yep, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's fast moving.

2249
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:33,080
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. Yeah, I try to cover a lot

2250
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:36,640
Speaker 2: of ground. Yeah, well, you know, it was a journalism undergraduate.

2251
02:11:37,480 --> 02:11:41,160
Speaker 2: I came out of a journalist newspaper family, and I

2252
02:11:41,320 --> 02:11:43,920
Speaker 2: was drilled into My father was a very good editor,

2253
02:11:44,680 --> 02:11:47,400
Speaker 2: and he was you try to teach us as well

2254
02:11:47,440 --> 02:11:51,000
Speaker 2: as he could my brother's and me. You know, right, right,

2255
02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:56,760
Speaker 2: like a talk, right, it's a if you can't, if

2256
02:11:56,760 --> 02:11:58,520
Speaker 2: people can't, if you're not drawn to it, if I'm

2257
02:11:58,520 --> 02:12:01,800
Speaker 2: willing to read it, then what's the point. Yeah, So

2258
02:12:01,880 --> 02:12:02,960
Speaker 2: I try. I try to do that.

2259
02:12:03,720 --> 02:12:05,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to see you sit down and do the

2260
02:12:05,160 --> 02:12:06,280
Speaker 1: audiobook on that thing.

2261
02:12:11,160 --> 02:12:13,160
Speaker 2: It's a been contractor for that, and I thought, god,

2262
02:12:13,320 --> 02:12:14,240
Speaker 2: poor guys.

2263
02:12:17,560 --> 02:12:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be man, that would be a it's

2264
02:12:20,640 --> 02:12:24,760
Speaker 1: a it's it's a healthy book. Like I said, as

2265
02:12:24,840 --> 02:12:28,400
Speaker 1: I you know, I can't I do it. I'm seriously

2266
02:12:28,440 --> 02:12:30,920
Speaker 1: gonna read the book and I'm just in preparation for today.

2267
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:34,040
Speaker 1: Like I skimmed around and by doing that approach of

2268
02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:37,440
Speaker 1: looking in the index and finding things and you know,

2269
02:12:38,040 --> 02:12:42,920
Speaker 1: bouncing back and forth, uh, and went to a couple

2270
02:12:42,960 --> 02:12:48,680
Speaker 1: of areas in Western history that that I know well

2271
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:55,080
Speaker 1: and like to read about. And your ability to what

2272
02:12:55,200 --> 02:12:58,320
Speaker 1: I thought was great about is your ability to not

2273
02:12:58,480 --> 02:13:01,520
Speaker 1: get bogged down into you know, at eight am at

2274
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:06,760
Speaker 1: nine am, but just to sort of be like, at

2275
02:13:06,800 --> 02:13:10,360
Speaker 1: a large scale, where did like, where did this lead?

2276
02:13:10,520 --> 02:13:12,640
Speaker 1: What was this coming from? What does this really mean?

2277
02:13:13,120 --> 02:13:13,280
Speaker 9: You know?

2278
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:17,040
Speaker 1: And then someone reading it could very easily use it

2279
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:19,920
Speaker 1: as a jump off point to go find a lot

2280
02:13:20,080 --> 02:13:23,080
Speaker 1: of areas that they might want to explore, but just

2281
02:13:23,160 --> 02:13:30,320
Speaker 1: to get in the idea of how the country acquired

2282
02:13:31,040 --> 02:13:38,000
Speaker 1: and acquired and homogenized, maybe like how the country gobbled

2283
02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:40,600
Speaker 1: up so much stuff and sort of made it into

2284
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 1: this recognizable idea of America so fast.

2285
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:48,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, that's that is really kind of breathtaking when

2286
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:50,760
Speaker 2: you when you think of it in that larger perspective,

2287
02:13:51,080 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 2: how much happened so fast and with so many consequences.

2288
02:13:54,520 --> 02:13:56,920
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm You can say the same thing,

2289
02:13:56,960 --> 02:13:59,440
Speaker 2: of course about the Civil War. I'm saying you can

2290
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:03,880
Speaker 2: say that about both of them together. Together, those events

2291
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:05,080
Speaker 2: remade this country.

2292
02:14:06,360 --> 02:14:09,080
Speaker 1: So Elliott West again in the latest book, and he

2293
02:14:09,480 --> 02:14:12,800
Speaker 1: has many continental reckoning the American West and the age

2294
02:14:12,800 --> 02:14:14,640
Speaker 1: of expansion. Thank you very much for joining us.

2295
02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's great, great pleasure. Thank you.

2296
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:34,720
Speaker 9: Oh right on a seal, great shine like silver in

2297
02:14:34,920 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 9: the sun. Right right on alone, sweetheart. We're done beat

2298
02:14:49,080 --> 02:14:58,240
Speaker 9: this damn course today, taking a new one. Ride. We're

2299
02:14:58,400 --> 02:15:03,640
Speaker 9: done beat this day, am coarse today, So take a

2300
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:05,840
Speaker 9: new one and ride on.

2301
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:15,120
Speaker 8: Mm hmm.