1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Nol is not with 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: us today but will be returning shortly. They call me Ben. 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our guest super producer, 8 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: Max maximum Williams. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: to know. Folks, if you happen to be from a 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: small town where if you ever lived in a small town, 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: then you know secrets function differently. There are a lot 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: of open secret. It's I would say, in a small 14 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: town where everybody knows everybody else's business to some degree. 15 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 1: In today's episode, Matt, you and I are exploring a 16 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: strange case of secrecy, harassment, and honest to gosh, conspiracy 17 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: in a town might be similar to the towns in 18 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: which a lot of our fellow listeners reside. Our question today, 19 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: it's something that we both rabbit hold on pretty hard. 20 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: What on earth are the Circleville letters? They're confusing? There uh, confounding, 21 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: they are cavernous. It's it's a it's a lot. It's 22 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: it's an awesome story. So we can't wait to share 23 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: it with you. We're just still working through like everything. 24 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: It's a lot. I can't stress that enough. Yeah, and 25 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: a lot of the word on this case goes to 26 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: an amazing journalist, Martin Yant. Here are the facts Circleville, Ohio. 27 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: If you are not from Ohio, you may not have 28 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: heard of this place. If you've never watched Unsolved Mysteries, 29 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: you've never heard of this place. If you're not from 30 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: the US, you have certainly never heard of Circleville, Ohio. No, 31 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: if you're from a big city in Ohio, you probably 32 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: don't know about Circleville, Ohio. So, yeah, it's now, this 33 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: is not this is not US dunking on this town. Yeah, 34 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: it's it's the county seat of Pickaway County, Ohio, which 35 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: is uh south of Columbus. It's about twenty five miles 36 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: south and the population as of about two years ago 37 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: was just just a hair under four teen thousand. So 38 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: it's not a huge town. But you know it's not 39 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a tiny isolated hermitage either no. Uh, well, 40 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: well let's get into the history of Circleville. Some of 41 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: my favorite stuff in this episode is gonna come right 42 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: now here it comes. Just prepare yourselves. Yeah, I'll I'll 43 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: set you up here. Ben. So we gotta who who 44 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: is going to have to do it? Matt? All right, Okay, No, 45 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: it's it's it's um So that the town was founded, 46 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: uh way back when in the eighteen hundreds, and it 47 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: got its name in eighteen ten Circleville because guess what, guys, 48 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: it was formed as a circle. It began as a circle, 49 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: so it became Circleville sort of a vill of circles 50 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: for overthinking it. Yeah, this is a uh this circular 51 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: layout was building upon ancient native fortifications that are associated 52 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: with something called the Hopewell tradition, which is um It's 53 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: not a single community, it's an archaeological era that flourished 54 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: between let's see right now. The best estimates are one 55 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: hundred b C to five hundred C, so very very 56 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: very old, and the town when when Europeans arrived and 57 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: founded the town, they built upon these fortifications. Eventually the 58 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: town decides to go to um a more common grid pattern, 59 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: but you can still see photographs of the original layout 60 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: of Circleville, And just like you described, Matt, it's a 61 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: series of concentric circles, which I think is seems cool. 62 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: But you know we we weren't in the meeting. Yeah, yeah, 63 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: it seems really cool. It doesn't It's probably not great 64 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: for cars, right, For for traffic. When you've got cars 65 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: on the road, you need you need more of those 66 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: straight lines, which is why the grid is so dang popular. 67 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: It's also the straight lines are really great for running 68 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, electricity and other utilities like water. M Yeah, 69 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: it's a good point. And uh, the name Circleville stuck 70 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: around right, and uh, there's a weird note here if 71 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: you if you go to Circleville. Uh, and we have 72 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: not personally visited, but if you go to Circleville, you 73 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: will see a weird thing that happens with a lot 74 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: of towns, a lot of cities, even like here in Atlanta. 75 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: One of the ongoing jokes is that there are a 76 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: ton of streets, or there are many streets that are 77 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: some iteration of peach tree all one word. You want 78 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: a peach Tree Avenue, we got it. You want Peachtree Street, 79 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: we got it. West Peach Tree got you back. Peach 80 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: We got northwest, northeast, south, and west southeast versions of 81 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: all of them, all of them, and so so Circleville, Ohio. 82 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: This has nothing to do with the story, But Circleville, 83 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: Ohio has their own equivalent of peach Tree, doesn't it. 84 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: It does. It's a different name. It's not you know, 85 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: it's not a tree, it's not a piece of flora 86 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: or even fauna. Uh. It's a it's a proper name. 87 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: It's a proper down uh Uh. If you look around Circleville, 88 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: plastered on streets and other things all over the place, 89 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: you will see the name Hitler everywhere. And they're not 90 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: big fan. It's not like, you know, the town is 91 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: just a big fan of this guy that lived back 92 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: in the day who did some really messed up stuff. No, 93 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: it's it's just a it's just a proper name. Hitler. Yeah, 94 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: Hubert Hitler Road, Hitler Pond, Hitler Park. Uh, there's a 95 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: Hitler Ludwig Cemetery. I think there are several other roads 96 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: that have some derivation of Hitler. And you know, Matt, 97 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: I love that you're pointing out these names were part 98 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: of the town well before World War two, well before 99 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler's rise to power and all the h evil, 100 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: unclean things that guy is responsible for. They are actually 101 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: named after a longstanding influential family and the old days 102 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: of the town, the Hitler family, and they're primarily named 103 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: in honor of a single patriarch, a dentist. Yes, Ben 104 00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: Dr Gay Hitler, Yes, Matt Dr Gay Hitler, that's the name, 105 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: and other things we did not think we would say 106 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: on air, but we are straight. We have to reiterate 107 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: that is a real name that you have a website 108 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: you found. I'm going to make sure I'm going to 109 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: it right now to just re check Dr Gay Hitler 110 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: is a real thing. Okay, Yes, yep. You can learn 111 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: more about this at the Circleville. Harold Hitler's were County 112 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: pioneers by Darlene Weaver. Uh. This is this is a 113 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: true fact. Uh. We don't know if our superproducer Max 114 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: is uh is laughing. We don't know what Max is 115 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: doing here. But yes, well Dr Dr Hitler had a 116 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: great job. Oh there he goes. Max turned on his 117 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: camera briefly as were recorded and gave us like a consideration, 118 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: not just to just to check in and I see you. So, yeah, 119 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: Dr Gay Hitler, big deal in Circleville, Ohio. Nothing to 120 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,119 Speaker 1: do with the story, but gosh, how weird is history? Uh? Nowadays, 121 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: Circleville is most famous for two things, neither of which 122 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: are Dr Gay Hitler. The first thing is famous for 123 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,439 Speaker 1: is an annual pumpkin festival, which is a heck of 124 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: a time. It's early October, so as you're hearing this, 125 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: if you're in the area, why not swing by. Uh. 126 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: This pumpkin festival dates back to like three It's a 127 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: pretty cool thing. No word yet on whether or not 128 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: they've incorporated Chunkin into the pumpkin festival. Oh wow, that's 129 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: a deep cut. Think they've got a tribute shay ah. 130 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: Al Right, But there's another reason, right, Matt, that people 131 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: have heard of Circleville, Ohio, and it's much less wholesome 132 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: than our Gay Hitler jokes. Yeah, very much so. Uh. 133 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: The reason why we're making this episode is because there's 134 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: a thing called the quote Circleville Letters. It's a series 135 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: of letters in the nineties, seventies, and eighties. I think 136 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: I can't remember if it stretches in the nineties or not. 137 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: I know, seventies and eighties when most of the letters 138 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: were written. These are threatening letters. Uh, these are anonymous letters, handwritten, 139 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: and they were sent to a variety of people, many 140 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: many people. And it should also have a little like 141 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: addendum to the Circleville letters, and it should say and 142 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: also signs, because we're also going to talk about a 143 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: bunch of road signs are like put together quickly put 144 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: together cardboard signs. Yeah. The story starts really with a 145 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: local school bus driver named Mary Gillispie, and in Mary 146 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: begins receiving these anonymous letters. The only specific identification she 147 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: has is the postmark, which indicates these letters were sent 148 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: from Columbus, Ohio. These were not your average junk mail. Instead, 149 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: they seemed to know a lot about Mary's private life. 150 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: Private not as not just as in like, uh, you know, 151 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: my birthday or my social Security or number or something private, 152 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: as in secrets that you wouldn't want anyone else to know. 153 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: They accuse Mary of having an affair with a guy 154 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: named Gordon Massey, who is the local school superintendent. And Mary, 155 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: we'll get to her perspective in a second. Mary's freaked out, obviously, 156 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: and things only get worse because her husband, Ron starts 157 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: receiving letters as well, which appear to, if not being 158 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: from the same person, they appear to have the same 159 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: general thrust of conversation. Right, and that's where people start 160 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: asking what is happening in Circleville. We're gonna pause for 161 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors and we'll be back. Here's 162 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy, Ben, before we jump in. The 163 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: crazy thing to me is thinking about this story from 164 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: Mary Gillespie's husband, Ron's perspective of Like, when we say 165 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: Mary started receiving letters, you have to imagine those are 166 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: letters just ending up in a mailbox that the family, 167 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: whoever in the family is gonna you know, take inside 168 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: and then somebody's gonna open. Right. So it's like it's like, um, 169 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: you imagine you imagine a ball being dropped on the 170 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: whole household of somebody saying, you know, accusing one of 171 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: the family members of having having an affair. That's a 172 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: crazy intense thing to do, right, to just drop it 173 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: on a family like that, um, and then for that person, 174 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: like you said, to then begin writing messages directly to 175 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: the husband. And we'll get into it. But they even 176 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: start referring to the daughter correct correct, yes, sir. So 177 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: it's just it's mayhem in that house when these letters 178 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: start showing up. At least psychologically you can imagine, oh yes, yeah, 179 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: divide and conquer, right. Uh. Harassment via the post is 180 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: nothing particularly new by the nineties seventies. As a matter 181 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: of fact, harassment via post postal services continues today. Please 182 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: do check out our our earlier stories and strange news 183 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: and listener mail segments about sending poop through the mail 184 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: and the laws about it are weird. People also send 185 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: glitter bombs through the mail, and do check out our 186 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: upcoming episode on on stuff they don't want you to 187 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: know about glitter. I can't believe we're doing it. It's 188 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: a real thing. Deliver. Yeah, we've gotta we've gotta come 189 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: with a fire on that one. So, uh, we know 190 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff happens. And unfortunately, if you're 191 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: listening today, you may have received um threatening anonymous messages 192 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: in real life. The Internet didn't create that. The Internet 193 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: just made it easier for people to do those sorts 194 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:53,239 Speaker 1: of things. Right, So, whoever is targeting this family in Circleville, 195 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: they seem to have two things. They seem to have 196 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: some sort of inside knowledge. Nless, they're absolutely trolling, and 197 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: they seem to have a hell of a spiteful agenda, 198 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: like like to your point, Matt, that your your spouse 199 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: is getting these weird letters. After you get these letters, 200 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: your kids are getting involved. What do you do to 201 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: whom do you turn? Eventually, the Gillespie's share the letters 202 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: with Ron's sister Karen and her husband, a guy named Paul. 203 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: This is Karen and Paul freshore. Okay, So let's let's 204 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: get the family straight here, because this is kind of 205 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: hard to keep in your mind. You've got Mary and Ron. 206 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: Those are the Galespie's, and then you've got Karen and Paul. 207 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: And there there is two different families, and but they 208 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: are related because Ron and Karen are brother and sister. Yes. Sorry, 209 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: I did do that like three times in my head 210 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: while I was going through the research here, just to 211 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: make sure I understood. Yeah, Mary and Ron, Paul and Karen. Okay, Mary, Ron, Paul, Karen. 212 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: Uh So. Mary, at this point, when she's sharing these letters, 213 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: she apparently has a couple of hunches or suspicions about 214 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: the identity of the letter writer, and so she and 215 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: her husband Ron send letters of their own, and they're 216 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: they're essentially saying stop, like cease and desist without a lawyer, 217 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: that's what they're saying. And Mary believed it was this 218 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: person because it was another bus driver. Remember she's a 219 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: bus driver at the school where she's being accused of 220 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: having a fair with the superintendent. Um. She there was 221 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: a fellow bus driver that Mary said had made passes 222 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: on at her and she had refused, you know, like 223 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of pushed him away. She thought, oh, well, maybe 224 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: this guy is upset. That's who they sent letters to 225 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: to try to get him to stop m And on August, 226 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: Ron doesn't get a letter, he gets a phone call. 227 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: We don't know the substance of that conversation. We do 228 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: know that he got this phone call while his spouse, 229 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: Mary was on a trip I believe, in Florida with 230 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: some friends. And whatever happened on that phone call, it 231 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: causes him to take his firearm with him, according to 232 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: the story, to tell the kids he's going to go 233 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: speak with someone directly. And he drives away and later 234 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: that evening his truck is found smashed into a tree. 235 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: He did not survive the car accident. UH An investigation 236 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: led by a character that we will introduce very shortly. 237 00:17:54,920 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: The investigation into the accident and his death concluded that 238 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: he had a blood alcohol level of point one six. 239 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: Point one six doesn't sound huge if you're talking regular percentages, 240 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: but that's very, very high. Here in the United States, 241 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: the legal limit for driving with alcohol in your system 242 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: is point z road too. So this guy, this, according 243 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: to the blood work, this guy is driving drunk. Right, Yeah, 244 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: and well, I guess case closed. Except for even if 245 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: he was drunk, he did have a firearm with him. 246 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: He did grab his own pistol on the way out 247 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: the door after receiving this phone call, and that firearm 248 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: uh was discharged one time. There was one bullet missing. Uh, 249 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: but that bullet was never recovered. So it's unknown what 250 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: he fired at. Or maybe maybe he had fired previously, right, 251 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: maybe the gun was already missing one bullet when he 252 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: got in the car. There's just no way to know, 253 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: no way to know. Oh, there's one other there's one 254 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: other thing I want to add there. According we we 255 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: talked about Paul already, right, Oh my god, I'm gonna 256 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna mess it up already, Mary and Ron, Paul 257 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: and Karen so Uh, the Paul of Paul and Karen 258 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: on his blog that He's Got. He states that it's 259 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 1: known that during that phone call when Ron picked it up, 260 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: he said he recognized the voice and he was going 261 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: to go talk to that person. That's right, Yes, yeah, no, 262 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: super important point. Yes, So like it says, though the 263 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: actual it seems as though possibly the actual culprit of 264 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: whoever was writing the letters called Ron. He knew who 265 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: that person was and was going to go put a 266 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: stop to it or something, because he did take his firearm, 267 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: but he it up getting killed or dying however it 268 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: went down. Yeah, I think we have to say dying. 269 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: Now there's something interesting here. This is not ruled an 270 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: accidental death in the In the ensuing invest investigation, local 271 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: law enforcement, headed by Pickaway County Sheriff Dwight Radcliffe, rules 272 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: Ron's death a suicide. Yes, let's repeat that name, Dwight Radcliffe, 273 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: and he ruled it a suicide. Dwight Radcliffe also uh 274 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: goes on to be the longest serving sheriff in the 275 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: United States. In his time, he serves twelve consecutive terms 276 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: as sheriff of this place, Pickaway County. That equals out 277 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: to about forty eight years. And you know, Matt, full 278 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: disclosure for everybody. You and I work on some fiction 279 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: shows together that that you head up with Alex Williams 280 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: and Aaron Manky and Nick Takowski and I Blood Hells Television. Yes, 281 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: and I am. I am immensely fortunate to be able 282 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: to be a hired gun for some of these stories. 283 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: There's fortunate to have you. Oh God, all right, okay, 284 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: so so here. So there's this thing that's been stuck 285 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: in my head about the dangers of people serving in 286 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: positions of power and being unaccountable. And one of the 287 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: only thing we could say about one of the stories 288 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: we have coming up is that it involves Jager Hoover 289 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: and just like the sheriff of Pickaway County, Jager Hoover 290 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: is in charge of his, you know, his roost for 291 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: forty eight years. It's strange to think of someone having 292 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: almost half a century in power and uh, you could 293 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's a very solid argument that Hoover was 294 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: unaccountable and dangerous as he ascended to power. And maybe 295 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: that's making me biased. With Sheriff Radcliffe. Man, it just 296 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: seems like a lot of it seems like a long 297 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: time for someone to be that powerful. Yeah, when you 298 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: when you have that kind of power, it doesn't always happen. 299 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: Not everyone does this, but you can pull strings to 300 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: clean situations up for your benefit, especially if you're in 301 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: a powerful position that requires votes to either maintain that 302 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: power or you know, to get you more power. Um, 303 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: it is, it is weird. I don't wanna gosh, I 304 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: don't want to derail this conversation. Just bring bringing up 305 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: j Edgar. Yeah, for for that Zodiac show. I recently 306 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: interviewed an author and this author has a new a 307 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: new Zodia suspect. Okay, and this this suspect tells a 308 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: story to his daughter at one point because he was 309 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: he was telling everybody and is including his daughter and 310 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: his wife, that he was doing special operations during uh, 311 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: the Korean War, and he was like well liked and 312 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: went to parties sometimes. And he tells them this story 313 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: of one time he showed up at a party where 314 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: j Edgar was there, and j Edgar showed up wearing 315 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: a red sequined dress and gave him a kiss on 316 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: the lips. But it's just a story. But also like 317 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: the way you're characterizing this person, Uh, he was well 318 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: liked and he went to parties, so that this party 319 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: he may have also may have also been the Zodiac Killer. 320 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: But he may have also been the Zodiac Killer. Man, 321 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: I cannot wait uh, And I say this objectively. If 322 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: you are in tested in the Zodiac case, please do 323 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: check out Monster Zodiac. That is a Tenderfoot Matt Frederick 324 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: production and it's well worth your time. Yeah, dr he 325 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: would definitely approve of Jager's red sequin dress allegedly, allegedly allegedly. Okay, okay, yeah, 326 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: you're right back on track. So, okay, this Radcliffe guy 327 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: sheriff for almost half a century. We don't want to 328 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: be unfair to the guy, right, and he has passed away, 329 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: But we also can't be unfair to the facts. And 330 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is that when someone has 331 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: that much power for that long in a town of 332 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: this size. Again, this is the county seat of Pickaway County, 333 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: and this town has a little less than fourteen thousand residents. 334 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: So when you are in that cat bird seat for 335 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: that amount of time, you is completely plausible that, for instance, 336 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: you catch the mayor's son out raising hell right, doing 337 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: doing something sketchy, and you let them off because you 338 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: and you know, now you have some juice on the mayor, 339 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily make you malevolent. You are just leveraging 340 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: power to get more power later. So it could be 341 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: leveraging power, but he could also just be I'm going 342 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: to protect with that person so that they know next 343 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: time I'm in some kind of compromising situation, they will, 344 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: you know, step up for me theoretically in a jam. Yeah. Yeah, 345 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: So so we're just we're very conscious of that tendency 346 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: and without specifically attributing some kind of cover up. At 347 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: this point, we have to admit small town power is 348 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: a real thing. So ordinarily this case, this tragic car accident, 349 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: would be another small town tragedy. You know, it's heartbreaking, 350 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: it's terrible for the family, but it's not necessarily conspiratorial. 351 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: Until that is, more locals begin receiving letters of their own. 352 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Now it becomes like a mailing list situation. 353 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: Everybody in town is on it, and there's there's one 354 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: anonymous center with one message. Actually they have multiple messages, 355 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: and they're all not good. Uh they are. The letters 356 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: at this point are basically doubling down on this message 357 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: that was just being sent to that family. Mary Gillispie 358 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: is having an affair with this other guy, Gordon Massey, 359 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: and it's that's where it starts. But then it ends 360 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: with the sheriff, the one keep talking about here, Radcliffe, 361 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: he is actually covering up all these aspects. And it's thought, 362 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: or I can't remember if they spell it out exactly 363 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: in this series of letters, but the concept is that 364 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: Radcliffe is covering up for the superintendent who was also 365 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, a fellow powerful person within the town. That's 366 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: what people are thinking. And if we fast forward a bit, 367 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: this superintendent, Gordon Massey eventually does get divorced. He was 368 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: a married man when these letters became, when they started 369 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: going around Circleville. And Mary, we have to remember, at 370 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: this point, is widowed. Her her spouse has passed way. 371 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: So eventually the widowed Mary Gillespie and the now divorced 372 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: Gordon Massey do begin a romantic relationship. This is not 373 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: um a rumor, it's not conject Sure, they cop to it, 374 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: but their stance was always that they did not begin 375 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: this relationship until after Ron died. Somehow in that in 376 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: that auto accent, Yeah, if you go to Paul's website again, 377 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: that blog that Paul for sure created. He alleges that 378 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: that affair was definitely happening. I think he even alleges that, 379 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: remember that trip that Mary was supposed to be on 380 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: the night Ron died, right to Florida with friends. He 381 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: alleges that that that trip involved Gordon Massey as well. 382 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: It was with friends, but Gordon was there too, That's 383 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: what he says. So it's three now Mary begins receiving 384 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: more letters and the situation escalates past just mean messages 385 00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: and envelopes. Let's go to three thirty pm. It's February seventh. Three. 386 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: Mary's driving the school bus route that she always drives, 387 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: and she sees a sign like you you were sitting 388 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: up earlier, matt attached to a fence post and the 389 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: lettering of this sign, the message is about her daughter. 390 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: So she stops the bus, pulls over and goes to 391 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: grab this inflammatory sign. Yeah, and she picks up the sign. 392 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: So it's imagine a post and then a cardboard box 393 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: of sorts on top of that post, and then there's 394 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: words written on it. She picks up the box and 395 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: the post, right. Yeah, And you know, the this might 396 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: sound weird when we're describing it. So, by way of comparison, 397 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: if you were ever driving in a neighborhood or walking 398 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: through someplace and you see for sale signs on homes, 399 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: then they'll off did have a little box attached to 400 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: the signpost where you know, there's like a pamphlet or 401 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: something with information about the house or the realtor or whatever. 402 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: And uh, this is kind of similar, but it's very 403 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: very bootleg. Obviously she's freaked out. She's been harassed for 404 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: years at this point. Uh, she pulls the sign up 405 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: and she puts it on her bus by the way, 406 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and it's three pm. That's like I got 407 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: kids on the bus time. And she picks this sign up, 408 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: just puts it on the bus and goes about her business. 409 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: And because this is a small town, of course, we 410 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: must already know that the kids are going to mention 411 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: this when they get home. That's that's going to be 412 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: the talk of school for at least a day or so. So, um, 413 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: here's the thing. This is not a real tour side. 414 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: This is not a for sale side. This is meant 415 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: to be a trap. Yeah, a movie trap. Okay, So 416 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: let's I guess we can describe it this way. The 417 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: sign is just written on the front of that box, right, 418 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: and it was at least it appears as though the perpetrator, 419 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: the person who created it, believed that when Mary saw it, 420 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: she would just grab at the sign, the part that 421 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: said the bad things and just rip it up, like 422 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: just grab it off and take it. Because inside that 423 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: box there was a pistol pointed outwards, like if somebody 424 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: was reading the sign and they pulled it off, the 425 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: gun would have been pointed at them. My dogs are 426 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: really excited about this part. I'm sorry. I'm going to 427 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: calm them down in a second after I stopped talking. 428 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: But attached to that gun, to the trigger of that 429 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: gun was a piece of twine that went down so 430 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: that if you would have ripped that box off, Thank goodness, 431 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: she just ripped the whole thing. Yeah. The idea was 432 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: pulling the twine would pull, the trigger would fire, the 433 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: gun would shoot. The person who appears to be the 434 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: target appears to be Mary, the school bus driver, because 435 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: this is purposely posted on her route, you know what 436 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean. So honestly the trap is amateur work. But 437 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,239 Speaker 1: you start to ask questions again, why were the why 438 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: were there not fingerprints on the gun where's the serial number? 439 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: You know, the basic stuff. Mary turns this in Cities 440 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: contraption over to law enforcement. They look at the firearm 441 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: and they say someone has tried in a super not 442 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: great way to erase the serial number to file it off, 443 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: and the culprit is unsuccessful. Police are able to dig 444 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: in and make out that serial number. They find it, 445 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: which means they can trace the gun, and they match 446 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: it to another guy in town, Mary's former brother in law, 447 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: Paul fresh Shore. Oh we should say at this point, uh, Paul, 448 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: of Paul and Karen, they they have divorced. They're no 449 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: longer together, they split up. Uh. And it should be 450 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: noted that Paul states it's because he discovered his wife 451 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: was having an affair and he got that's why he 452 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 1: initiated the divorce. He hired a private investigator and then divorced. Uh. 453 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: Interesting right, interesting? Right? Yeah? And uh so Sheriff Radcliffe 454 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: does does the right thing what you should do in 455 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: that situation, goes to Paul and says, hey, is this 456 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: your gun? And Paul Paul says, WHOA, Hey, I do 457 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: have a gun, but I have it basically packed away 458 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,959 Speaker 1: in my garage. I don't ever touch it. I haven't 459 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: checked on it in years. I didn't know it was 460 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: missing until you told me. Sheriff. That's a not unplausible explanation. 461 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: A lot of people have stuff that they forget in 462 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: their house and is that responsible firearm usage? Absolutely not. 463 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: You kind of want to be aware of items like 464 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: that in your home, especially when, like Paul, you have 465 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: you have children, right, yeah, even more so. Uh, And 466 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: Radcliffe is not convinced by the way. He says, Okay, 467 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: all right, take this handwriting test, because the police, by 468 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: this point, the Sheriff's department, they have photo copies. They 469 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: probably have they have the originals of these letters, and 470 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: you can go to you can go online and see 471 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: screenshots of these letters. So the main thing, the main 472 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: thing to take away from this is that those letters 473 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: are handwritten. So the sheriff asked Paul to copy as 474 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: close as he can the handwriting of some of these 475 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: anonymous letters targeting the Gillespie family, and in the Sheriff's opinion, 476 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: this is close enough to seal the deal. Looking at 477 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: Paul's handwriting and looking at the handwriting of the anonymous letters, 478 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: they like him for it. They think it's close enough 479 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: and the gun and the handwriting samples are the primary 480 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence when Paul for As Shure goes to 481 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: court on charges of attempted murder. There's another thing about 482 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: his alibi that's like sort of a tertiary piece of evidence. 483 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: Someone who looks like him is seeing at a time 484 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: where you know, it doesn't hundred percent looked like he 485 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: is where he said he was. So that's sketchy because 486 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: he took off work the day that the box was found. 487 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 1: He took off work. I mean, if you need time 488 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: to set something up like that and then go plant 489 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: it somewhere, it would make sense. You can see why 490 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement would like him. As you said, he looks 491 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: good for it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, regardless 492 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: of where you stand visa the cover up of some sort, 493 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 1: at this point, law enforcement is looking like they're taking 494 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: the right steps, at least the right investigative steps. The 495 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: jury agrees Paul for Sure has found guilty. Sheriff Radcliffe 496 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: tells the press that, yeah, this guy Paul confessed to 497 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: writing somewhere between forty two fifty threatening letters. There's only 498 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: one problem, there's no record of that confession, and Paul 499 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: himself says he never said anything like that. Uh. It 500 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: just gets curiouser and curiouser, and there are more complications 501 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: on the way, but we have to pause for a 502 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we've returned. So there are 503 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: complications with the case. Paul Freshwar's fingerprints are nowhere on 504 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: the gun, fingerprints are not on the booby trap, fingerprints 505 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: are not on the letters. They search his house because 506 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: of course that's, you know, the correct step to take, 507 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: and they find no additional corroborating evidence. There's no you know, 508 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: like you look in the garage, there's nothing to indicate 509 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: somebody built weird booby trap that doesn't work. Uh. And 510 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: you you also don't see ammunition. You don't see like 511 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: you know, uh uh, an obsessively filled out notebook with 512 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: revenge schemes and paranoid thoughts. None of that looks like 513 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: a normal house. It does, but you do have to imagine, 514 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: like this guy is really close to them. He would 515 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: know where they live, he would know what the you know, 516 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: what Ron's vehicle looks like. There's all these other pieces 517 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: of circumstantial evidence and considerations that are there, so you know, 518 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: you just it becomes so complicated. I think when you're 519 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: thinking about this, I've got no evidence that's matching to 520 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: this guy, but man, it feels right. Um, I'm just 521 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: trying to take the perspective of law enforcement if we're 522 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: going to imagine their objective observers. Right. So then let's 523 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 1: get into the court where Mary Gillespie is testifying specifically 524 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: about the divorce of Paul and Karen. Remember they got 525 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: a divorce the other affair thing. Uh. She states that 526 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: Karen confided in or in Mary that she believed Paul 527 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: might have been the author of those letters. Uh. Like 528 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,360 Speaker 1: she she comes out and she says, I think it 529 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: might have been him, But you have to remember that 530 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: those two went through a contentious divorce. So then you 531 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: have to take you have to think, well, is Karen, 532 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, is carrying putting spin on what she's saying, 533 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: or is you know Paul actually doing this? It's you 534 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: know what it is. There's no I feel like in 535 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: this story been there's no reliable narrator. There's no uh 536 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: person that I can trust what's happening, because even the 537 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: sheriff I don't trust. Yeah, maybe maybe I was a 538 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: little unfair to him, but forty eight years is a 539 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: long time. No, no, no, you're right, and well you 540 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: should see what Paul for sure has to say about 541 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: the show and his letters. He writes the FBI. Okay, 542 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: for sure is is um Or was for the rest 543 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: of his life adamant that he did not he was 544 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: not guilty of the crime of which it was convicted. 545 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: He was convicted. I guess we should make the historical 546 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: note there in the in the courtroom, when his ex 547 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: wife says, I think he might have been the author, 548 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,479 Speaker 1: Paul's team says, uh, if this is true, why didn't 549 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: you bring it up during our acrimonious divorce. Good because 550 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: he got custody of the children, and the writer of 551 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: those letters probably wouldn't have gotten custody of the children's right. Yeah, 552 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: that would have been a pretty significant intervening variable. So 553 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: it's a valid point. Honestly, we can agree to that. 554 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: But still again, he is convicted. He is sentenced to 555 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: seven to twenty five years is behind bars for attempted murder, 556 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: insisting upon his innocence the entirety of the time he's 557 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: um He's sent up to Lima, Ohio. He's imprisoned, incarcerated 558 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: in Limo, Ohio, and these letters start coming out, but 559 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: they're not from Limo, Ohio. There's still the circle. There's 560 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:29,479 Speaker 1: still like this mysterious Circleville letter writer troll. And they're 561 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: they're not just sending letters to Circleville now, they're sending 562 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: them all around. And the letters are still postmarked from Columbus, 563 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,959 Speaker 1: and Columbus is ninety miles away from Lima, ninety miles 564 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: or so. As the crow flies, that's a feat right 565 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: in jail, and he can still send these letters from Yeah, exactly. 566 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: You think he'd be better at filing off a serial number. Huh. 567 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: So Sheriff Radcliffe is convinced. He's like, don't talk to 568 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: me about time and distance and how you know crows 569 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: fly and all that malarkey. This guy is somehow masterby 570 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 1: in an evil letter writing campaign from prison. Put him 571 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: in isolation, put him in solitary, and they do it, 572 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: and he's got he's constantly monitored, he's got no access 573 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: to any kind of writing materials, the works. There is 574 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: physically not a way that he could write and send 575 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: a letter himself, but the letters keep coming. That's one 576 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: of the weirdest parts. Yep uh. And it's it's funny 577 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: so for sure's in prison. He gets a parole hearing, right, 578 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: and one of the major reasonings behind denying him parole 579 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: was that, look, you're in here, but you're still sending 580 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: all these letters, Like what are you doing? Man, don't 581 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: you want parole? Stop sending the letters. It's it stinks. 582 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 1: It's a terrible situation. Uh. And after he gets denied parole, 583 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: he receives a letter that is essentially dancing on his 584 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: grave and mocking him. It's a real twist of the knife. Well, 585 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 1: it's how it even talks about how we we said, 586 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: we told you that we were going to set you 587 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: up or whatever. I mean, it's it's so strange, like 588 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: we talked, we told you we were going to set 589 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: you up. You'll never get out of prison. Who are 590 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: these people? Who is this person? Yeah? People? Person? Right? 591 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: Is it plural? Is it singular? We're gonna find out. Well, 592 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: we're we're gonna see some good guesses in May of 593 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: n Paul Fis shore Is And this is largely thanks 594 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: to an astonished journalist named Martin Yant. Uh. Martin Yant 595 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: brings the story to the public eye. The Circleville saga 596 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: is featured on an episode of a TV show called 597 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries, which many of us in the audience remember, 598 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: no and love, And then it gets weirder. Matt, they're 599 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: the the Unsolved Mysteries TV production team is working on 600 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: this episode and it's not the whole show. If you 601 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: remember Unsolved Mysteries, it's an anthology series, so episodes don't 602 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: necessarily connect. It's a new thing every Thursday at nine 603 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: or whatever. So they're working on this episode and then 604 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: they get a letter. They get a postcard that says, uh, 605 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: you want to do a sinister voice. I feel like 606 00:44:55,160 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: this needs a good sinister voice. Forget Circleville, Ohio, do 607 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: nothing to hurt Sheriff Radcliffe. If you come to Ohio, 608 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: you l sickos, will pay l sickos. Yeah spelled with 609 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: spelled it e l like and spel el sis. And 610 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,759 Speaker 1: it's as signed the Circleville writer or I think Circleville writer. 611 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: Maybe yes, yeah, yeah, just so, And uh, now we've 612 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: got an even stranger situation. Look, whomever is opening the 613 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: mail for Unsolved Mysteries, that hapless production assistant. That's a 614 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: weird that's a weird day. Right, They've probably got a 615 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: lot of strange mail on unsolved mysteries. Anyway, this is 616 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: something we should point out too, And this is according 617 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 1: to Paul for Shure's website. According to him, many of 618 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 1: these letters contained arsenic within them, within the envelope, right, yes, yeah, 619 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: but I I haven't seen that written in a lot 620 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: of places, so I don't. I don't know the truth. 621 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: They're like, if that's real or not? All all I've 622 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,800 Speaker 1: seen is the um claim on his own blog. Okay, 623 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,919 Speaker 1: like I I haven't. I mean, that's not to say 624 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,919 Speaker 1: there may not be corroborating sources there, but I haven't 625 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: seen like a police report that says it was. But 626 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: if there is, please send it to us folks. So well, 627 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,840 Speaker 1: if there is, I'm just thinking about the team opening 628 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: the letters like could be dangerous. I guess that's yeah, 629 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: that's a really good point. Well, also, they're getting this 630 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: one is a postcard, so there's not an envelope to contain. 631 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: I guess they could have like rubbed our sneake on it. 632 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. Don't send people are sneak in the mail, 633 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: you know? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's good. That's really good. 634 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: Is that a hot take for us? No? I think 635 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: that's okay, okay, okay. Hopefully that's something we can all 636 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: agree on. Stop sending our sneak in the mail and 637 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: be careful about the poop anyway, Dr Gay Hitler. At 638 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: this point, Paul for sure reaches out to the FBI, 639 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, Matt, and he is asking the 640 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: FBI to investigate that death of Ron Gillespie all those 641 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: years ago, and he wants to clear his name. But 642 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,320 Speaker 1: he's also again saying, look, I physically could not have 643 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: written these letters, right, not all of them. I provably 644 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 1: could not have been writing all of them. And he 645 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: is ultimately unsuccessful in that no other author of these 646 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: letters has been accused in a court of law even 647 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: now in And so Paul for sure Louis does die 648 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: a freeman. He dies, and he loses time that he 649 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: will never get back. He passes away into that in twelve, 650 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:06,400 Speaker 1: telling the world that he is innocent. And so the 651 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: town gossip again small town rules. It's reaching a boiling point. 652 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: If it wasn't Paul sending these letters, asked the locals, then, 653 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: who could it be? And to this day that answer 654 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: remains officially unclear. But our journalist Martin yet I think 655 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:38,439 Speaker 1: he makes a pretty persuasive argument for multiple letter writers. Yeah, 656 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: I mean I think so too. I think I think 657 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 1: it makes sense. Um, it's just tough because it's basically 658 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: accusing multiple people of being working together on this scheme. Right. 659 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: One of the people that really surprised me, But the 660 00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: more I thought about it, the more I was like, 661 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,440 Speaker 1: I guess that's plausible was Gordon Massey, the guy who 662 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: was allegedly having an affair with Mary. The person that 663 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: Yett is making it a case we're here is Gordon 664 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,839 Speaker 1: Massey's son, who you know, if you if you play 665 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: it out in your mind, maybe the son found out 666 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: that his dad was having an affair and he wanted 667 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: to stop it, so he's writing letters to try and 668 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: stop it. Um that that logically makes sense, right, But 669 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: there's not much you can stack up as far as 670 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: evidence goes to try and prove that. Yeah, we have 671 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: to be careful not to treat it as though we're 672 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: writing a soap opera, you know what I mean? And 673 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: that that's he definitely does feel like what, Yes, it 674 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: very much does. Uh, it's all about relationships. So this 675 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: argument alleges claims that there are three different writers. Um, 676 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:02,920 Speaker 1: it is definitely possible for groups of people to anonymously 677 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 1: conduct these kind of criminal conspiracies, right, like I always this. 678 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: This really makes me think of the earlier Japanese case, 679 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:18,040 Speaker 1: the monster with twenty one faces. Remember that one never caught. 680 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 1: They're never going to be caught. They got away. So 681 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: so it is possible. And do check out Martin Yann's work. 682 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 1: He makes he makes uh compelling arguments, but again there 683 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:39,239 Speaker 1: are no official conclusions to this day. The police and 684 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:45,719 Speaker 1: law enforcement maintained that Paul Fisher was the Circleville writer. Uh, 685 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,840 Speaker 1: like we said, he kept a blog until he passed. 686 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: You can read it online today. All of this together 687 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 1: means that yes, a conspiracy of some sort occurred. There 688 00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 1: is stuff they don't want you to know. And it 689 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: is possible, not proven, but possible that the true architect 690 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,400 Speaker 1: of the Circleville letters escape justice. It might be alive 691 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,799 Speaker 1: today right now listening to this show. Don't write to us, 692 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:24,800 Speaker 1: please don't please, don't right to us. No, thank you. 693 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: So I don't know. That's I mean, that's where we 694 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: leave it. And there there there's so much more to 695 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 1: this story. You know, there have been a lot of 696 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: a lot of Compelly Investigations forty eight hours did a 697 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,280 Speaker 1: show or an episode on this? Um, the Unsolved Mysteries 698 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: episode is a good primer, but I think it skips 699 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:52,040 Speaker 1: over some stuff. There's an FBI profiler, FBI profiler that 700 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: looked at the case, Mary Ellen O'Toole, She looked at them, 701 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: and I forget exactly what she was saying about it, 702 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: but um, she was just mentioning how difficult it would 703 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,759 Speaker 1: be to actually to physically write and send letters while 704 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 1: in prison, if you are specifically in custody the way 705 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,840 Speaker 1: that Paul was in custody, right, So like you, you 706 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,839 Speaker 1: you have to assume I think that there is at 707 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,399 Speaker 1: least one other person that was writing the letters, whether 708 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: or not Paul was at the heart of this or 709 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: involved in any way. Yeah, because again there's that timeline discrepancy, right. 710 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: There is a time wherein this man could physically not 711 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: have sent letters. He couldn't have written them in symp them. 712 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 1: There was something weird though, Ben uh oh god, do 713 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,920 Speaker 1: we have so many sources? Just full disclosure, everybody, so 714 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,000 Speaker 1: many sources for this episode. There's one piece of writing 715 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:51,839 Speaker 1: in here that mentions Paul's handprints were or some kind 716 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,399 Speaker 1: of hand or fingerprint of his was found on one 717 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: of the letters that was sent while he was in prison. 718 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,359 Speaker 1: So there was or at least a one or two 719 00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,959 Speaker 1: examples where faer prints were found on the letter. Right, Yeah, 720 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: So like what does that mean? What did he touch 721 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: paper that then got sent out that was carefully handled 722 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 1: by somebody else, or did he actually write one or 723 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,839 Speaker 1: two of the letters. It's just confounding because you can't 724 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: prove any of it. Well. Then also there's the theory 725 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:26,800 Speaker 1: that he may have had someone even without his knowledge, 726 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: writing letters for him, as like a copycat crime, to 727 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,280 Speaker 1: help him get out of incarceration. That's the thing, because 728 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:43,640 Speaker 1: there's anonymity here. Um. Any number of explanations maybe plausible. 729 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:51,000 Speaker 1: But again, um, people just aren't happy with the official conclusion, 730 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 1: and we want to hear your thoughts. Folks, let us 731 00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: know what do you think the truth is? Do you 732 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: think one man wrote these letters and was rightly convicted. 733 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 1: Do you think that there were more people at play, 734 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: and if so, do you think they are alive and 735 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,799 Speaker 1: free today? We can't wait to hear your thoughts. Try 736 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,680 Speaker 1: to be easy to find online, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all 737 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,400 Speaker 1: the hits uh. If you don't sit the social meads. 738 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,560 Speaker 1: If you prefer to read a book, we have a 739 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,880 Speaker 1: book coming out audio book form as well your preorder 740 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 1: now stuff you should read books dot com aren't by 741 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,120 Speaker 1: the one and only Nick Turbot Benson. Uh. You can 742 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,800 Speaker 1: also if you would like to just hop on the horn, 743 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 1: you can give us a phone call. Yes, our number 744 00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: is one eight three three std w y t K. 745 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,719 Speaker 1: When you call in, it's a voicemail. Give yourself an 746 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,239 Speaker 1: a k A or a moniker of some sorts so 747 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: we remember you. Next time you call in. You've got 748 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 1: three minutes say whatever you'd like. Please do include whether 749 00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: or not you give us permission to use your name 750 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: and in our episodes. 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