WEBVTT - The Dutch Government’s Neglect of Asylum Seekers at Ter Apel 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.960 Also media. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.040 Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast It could Happen here. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.879 It's a podcast about the world falling apart and people 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.280 putting it back together. Today we've got a little bit 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.880 of both. I'm joined again by Mick and Rose. This 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.400 time we'll be discussing the treatment of migrants inside the 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.560 European Union, and specifically the treatment of migrants by the 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.880 government of the Netherlands in a place called ter Apple. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 Welcome to the show, guys. Thanks, thanks for joining us. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.880 Thanks good to be back, Thanks for having us. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.800 Yeah, thank you, it's good to have you. I wonder 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:35.520 if you could begin. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.320 We were talking about this before you recorded, and I 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.239 think it's very Obviously the migration laws in Europe are 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.920 very different, but so are the situations with regard to 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:50.080 shelter and just like facilities, with the US being so big, 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.159 we have them dotted all over the place. So you 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.600 were just explaining that this is a place where anyone 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.120 who wants to register for asylum in the Netherlands has 0:00:58.200 --> 0:00:58.480 to go. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:00:59.080 Is that right? 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.960 Yeah, so that's almost entirely right. So everyone who arrives 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.399 in the Nods and wants to ask for asylum has 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.440 to go to this village all the way on the 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.839 northeastern border with Germany, and that's where the only registration 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.280 center is for most asylum seekers. I believe only people 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.679 who do family reunification can go somewhere else. But yeah, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.440 we have like one registration center for the entire country. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.400 And yeah, yeah, I mean we have a tiny country, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.959 but it still became a huge bubblenreck because it was 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.320 the only one. So it didn't work out. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.920 That well apparently, and that's why we're talking about it, right, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.280 So just so people understand where these people are in 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.880 their asylum journey, Like they've entered the EU, right, and 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.000 then they've traveled to the Netlans, which is a country 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:51.640 where they want to claim asylum. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:52.120 Is that right? 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.520 Yeah, exactly. So basically they arrived at their final destination. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.720 So most people that I met inter Apple had already 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:05.720 been traveling for weeks, months, sometimes years, depending on how 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.400 much money and luck they had. Usually so yeah, they 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:13.680 would have either crossed the Mediterranean Sea or gotten into 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.040 Europe through Turkey or Belarus, and then they would have 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.320 crossed many many borders and many many border guards and fences, yep, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.520 and they would have gotten stuck in places for weeks 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:27.600 or months before they could move on again. Yeah, and 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.760 people who would actually go to the registration center in 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.240 the Netherlands, that means they wanted to ask for asylum 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.000 there and probably stay there. 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.919 Right, that would be like the country of residents going forward. 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.800 So can you explain I mean, I'm looking at pictures 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.560 of it right now. It's not hard. If you want 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.720 to look up pictures, you can spell it t ER 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.560 A p E L. But can you explain the condition said, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.040 because looking at it, it's atrocious, like. 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.240 From the pictures I can see, Yeah. 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.679 I mean I saw many pictures before I went myself. 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.400 It's basically just a tense camp. So, I mean it's 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.079 a it's a shelter, right, So it's like it used 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.560 to be an army base. It can hold two thousand people. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.120 It has loads of like small housing units where people live. 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:16.920 It has like a lot of offices for all the 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.800 registration steps and like the yeah, the immigration service, the police, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.800 the shelter organization like blah blah, blah, bah blah. But 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.200 so like one and a half year ago, there was 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.799 a lack of shelter in the whole country, but specifically 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:36.400 also in the Apple And yeah, somehow the authorities decided 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.920 that the solution would be to just leave people on 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.600 the field that was inside of the registration in front 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.040 of the registration center, and so there was just an 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:51.520 informal camp, like people were sleeping outside for weeks or months, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.080 not even intents, but they would have like huge kind 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.040 of banners or tarps that would kind of provide some shade. 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.360 So it was like mids was a very dry summer, 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:06.680 which for us was crazy lucky. The climate activists were 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:07.440 not happy. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:08.680 But we were happy. 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.520 Yeah, So yeah, people were just like laying on the 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.159 ground and that was. Yeah. There were some that water 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.240 that were like dixies for toilets that were obviously gross, 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:24.960 and so yeah, what you would see if you google it, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.000 you just see people lying on the field and just 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.800 being there for extended periods of time. But when I 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.000 personally went there the first time, it was kind of 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.919 worse than what I expected it to be because I 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.120 think the level of neglect was not visible on photo 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.359 or on video. So people would come to us and 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.080 tell us that they had show us really big wounds 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.320 that were infected, or people would come and tell us like, hey, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.120 I had a heart attack. A few weeks ago. I 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.440 need this medication or I have diabetes or whatever. So 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:02.040 there was just this dystopian situation of this enormous facility 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.760 that can hold thousands of people and then a big 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:08.640 fence around it, and then people with clearly like very 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.080 serious medical conditions just standing in front of the gate 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:15.640 and the security guards just being like now, maybe like 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.800 a staff member will show up today, maybe not, but 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.240 like we don't care how dangerous situation is or something. Yeah, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.240 just the fact that there was like no proper place 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:30.920 to wash, there were no toilets. The food was like, yeah, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.839 I worked in camps across the borders, across European borders, 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.240 and I've seen a lot of like horrible food. But 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.400 like in their Apple, they just decided to rent a Yeah, 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:46.080 like if you have like a party or something, you 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.720 would just rent this place that will just sell fries. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:51.720 So they were just giving fries to people like every 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:52.400 single day. 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:53.359 Jesus. 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:59.000 Yeah, just I mean just three packed food from the 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.560 supermarket would be more healthy then just fries every day 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.279 for a month, right, Yeah, So just a level of 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:11.440 like yeah, neglect, lack of care. It's just even even 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.200 more than what you can see on the pictures. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.880 Yeah, and like a complete like lack of like failure 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.520 of the government to address their basic rights and needs. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.479 And how long can people expect to spend in that situation? Then, 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.240 like they have to they have to go there, right, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.840 like if they want the asylum, they have to go there. 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.120 Yeah, So, like the the irony was that the only 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.040 way to get shelter was to be there and then 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:40.200 be without shelter for you wouldn't know how long, like right, yeah, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.559 I mean sometimes it was hours, especially for their women 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.080 and children. It was usually they would usually be let 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:50.200 in in the evening, but yeah, men definitely days sometimes 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.159 if they were not lucky, weeks. And it was just 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:58.800 also so like unclear, so people would just not get 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.840 any information. They would be there and then all of 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.040 a sudden hear someone shout and all start running towards 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.080 where the shout came from because maybe they would be 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.480 let in or yeah, I don't know, like guards would 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.560 just shout at them in Dutch and then be like 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.800 why don't you understand me? Or like it was all 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.760 just like consciously like it's so unnecessarily chaotic and therefore 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:24.640 also like people pushing around police getting like intimidating and violent, 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:32.000 and yeah, just is very chaotic and disrespectful approach to people. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:37.000 Yeah, it's worryingly similar to what we see in open 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.280 air attention. So it's here like they'll do it. People 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.240 are outside there too, they have an excell no shelter 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.080 there too. We volunteers make the food, so it's better 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.040 than that. Yeah, they'll turn up in a bus, like 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.440 I've seen them turn up in a bus and just 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.760 shout run and like, if you understand English, you run. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.000 If you don't stand English, you see everyone else running, 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.760 so you run. And then they can only take thirty people, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.280 and now had more than one hundred people come stampeding 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.440 across like just they've got to grab their bags and everything, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.560 and it's yeah, completely unnecessarily chaotic and cruel. And then 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.640 once it let in, what can they expect from that? 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.840 They're saying in like a barracks or something were they're processed. 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.680 Yeah, so it was very very chaotic. I think it 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.880 took them like almost a year to actually process everyone, 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.360 because they would just if a municipality would say like, 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:31.280 oh I have space for one hundred people, they would 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:33.240 just randomly put one hundred people in the bus and 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.040 drup them there and then a year later it would 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.680 turn out that they were never properly registered or something. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.440 So but yeah, I think like there was a night 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.360 shelter not so far away from their apple, so that 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.760 was always like late in the evening, there would still 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:51.839 be a few buses going to that night shelter. That 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.439 was just a big sports hall I think, full of beds, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:09:00.199 bunk beds or yeah, like stretchers and yeah, no privacy, see, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.480 just like hundreds of people in one room. The lights 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.800 would stay on all night for safety reasons. But of 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:07.480 course that's also very cruel too. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:08.160 Yeah. 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.040 Yeah, and then if people would get registered, they would 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:16.199 be usually sent to like a temporary or emergency shelter 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.599 because there was such a huge shortage of regular shelters. 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.640 So some people were living in sports halls without much 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.720 privacy for like half year or year or some people 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.000 are still there to be honest. 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:34.000 Wow, yeah, that's crazy. It's atrocious. Talking of atrocious. Unfortunately, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:47.760 we have to break the ad. We'll do that, Okay, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:49.719 we're back, help you do it as ad of it. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:54.640 And we're talking about tear Apple this, I guess Migrant 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.920 Reception Registration Center in the events. One thing I saw 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.800 when I was sort of doing and reading about this 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:05.520 recently was babies born to keep mothers or people in 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.960 the Teapal asylum center a seven times more likely to 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:14.240 die in or around perfect That is shocking. Yeah, so 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:16.760 is there just no access to medical care of people 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.520 like delivering babies in this asylum center. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.560 Well, I think the excuse of the government is that 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.240 they didn't have proper care during the pregnancy because they 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.320 were still traveling. Of course that is often the case, 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:39.720 Like yeah, yeah, but still it's insanely high. Seven times 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:46.240 more people dying, and especially when this super chaotic situation occurred, like, yeah, 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.520 we would have people in the field that we were 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:53.560 suspecting they were getting like hypothermia or you know, some 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.640 sort of yeah, strong physical reaction to the tough conditions 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.920 they were facing. But they could be dropped in the 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.960 night shelter, picked out again in the morning, being back 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.679 on the field, staying on the field for a few nights, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.320 again going for one night to a night shelter, being 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.600 transferred to an emergency camp for two days, being transferred 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.400 to another emergency camp for three days. And during this 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:20.720 time there is no coherence medical care right, and of 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.040 course it would usually be a little bit better for 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.600 women and especially pregnant women, so they would try to 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.680 put them in a more stable place and like not 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:32.040 move them around that much, but trying is yeah, they 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.080 would not always actually manage to do that. So they've 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.480 definitely also been complaints, yeah, of people and especially like 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.280 pregnant pregnant women still being forced to move to a 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.360 different camp, like really close to the data the baby 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:52.199 was expected to come, and yeah, that definitely doesn't help. So, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.160 I mean, the care on the field was absolutely horrendous. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.120 I think women were usually not exposed to it that 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.520 much because we do. Yeah, there's also this weird sexism 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:06.600 in migration that men can always suffer more, which is 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.840 not always true, especially if you're not filtering out the 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.480 really thick men either, because I was definitely a lot 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.600 more healthy than a lot of the men walking around there. 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.559 But yeah, at least in the case of like pregnant women, 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.320 I think they would be moved out pretty quickly. But yeah, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.280 it was chaotic. And then also you have like, of 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:26.959 course you have a lot of people who speak Arabic 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.000 or Farsi or dig Yeah, but you also have people 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.959 who speak on a link language that is only spoken 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.920 in a province of a country, you know, like it's 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.440 very hard to get proper translation for like all the 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.720 possible languages of people that apply for asylum. Yeah, but yeah, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:48.959 I mean I definitely think the conditions, especially when there 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.480 were so many people living in really bad emergency shelters 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.680 or even on the streets, did not help babies at all. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.840 Yeah, oh, anyone, I guess no. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.200 Can you explain then, like this situation arose about about 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.960 a year ago, I think, right, so you were part 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.840 of a group of people that were able to respond 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.160 to help at least, I guess make it a little 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.760 bit less terrible. Can you explain a little bit about 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.960 about the group, about what you're able to do. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.000 Yeah, So, I mean we just so, I was already 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.880 a part of my grades, which is an organization that 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.520 like I personally worked on the borders, like providing food 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.920 and clothes and stuff like that to people on the move, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.400 and migrades is more like also more an activist organizations 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.839 or organizing protests or campaigns and stuff like that. So 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.439 we just like went to see what was going on, 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.000 and then we very quickly realized that it was worse 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.360 than it looked, but also that there were so many 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.360 basic things that were not being done by the government 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.520 that we were actually able to do. So yeah, we 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.760 just asked around a lot for hours and hours, like 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.360 what do you need, what's going on? What is missing? 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.120 Like what is your imory issue at this moment, And 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.040 one of the main things people were saying was like 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.680 the food is fucking driving them and saying like yeah, yeah, 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.160 just the lack of flavor, but also just the lack 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.600 of health and yeah, people would just get like diarrhea 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.200 and stuff. And then it turned out, of course that 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.440 there were already some people around that wanted to do stuff, 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.680 so we just had a big call. And then it 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.280 turned out that there was like this squads where they 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:27.920 had a big kitchen and they were like, yeah, of 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.120 course you can cook here. And then there was another 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.360 like former squads where they also had a big soup kitchen, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.560 and then I was like, okay, this is like it 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:37.720 was a big like media storm. It was a big 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.560 thing for the Netlands that this was happening because we 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.920 have this like, yeah, idea that we are perfectly organized 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.280 and blah blah blah, and that like all the bad 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.520 things happen on the border is still like at the 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.400 like with a very clear role of our politicians, but 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.920 like somehow, yeah, there's not much talk about that. So 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.520 it was like on the front page every single day 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.920 for weeks. So I thought, yeah, like because the people 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:05.960 that were already trying to do something, they were like, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.160 how can we get enough money for the groceries and 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.760 how can we get volunteers? And then yeah, I was like, 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:17.240 we'll manage. If there's one thing I learned from the border, 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.560 it's like, if you start doing something, people will will 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:24.160 come and join. Yeah, and we first said like, okay, 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.080 let's just cook two times a week, you know, one 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.200 time in the squad and another time in the other squad, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.120 and then it's like super doable, blah blah blah. And 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.440 then basically we started and it's yeah, there was just 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.480 no way back. So yeah, we said like okay, let's 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.000 send out food twice and then yeah, I just went 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.560 like day and nights being on the field, and quite 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.280 quickly we moved to food distribution every day because there 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.440 were so many people in the area that wanted to cook. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.200 There was like an Islamic group that were churches. They 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.560 were like, yeah, from all over the country. People were 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.720 coming in action. And yeah, so first we did food 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:05.720 kind of because people really wanted it, but also kind 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:07.600 of because we just knew how to do it because 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.280 we had some people who had a big kitchen and 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.920 some experience cooking and in large quantities. And then quickly 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.760 it became like colder and rainy as well, so we 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.640 started to move towards leaving bags and ponchos and yet 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.960 just yeah, big distributions, and then we also started to 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.840 hand out tents, and then we got into a whole 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.800 fight with the municipality and the police because they were 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:34.520 constantly like confiscating the tents. Yeah, but yeah, we just 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.600 started with what we thought would be feasible to do, 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.080 I guess, and then it kind of escalated really quickly 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:45.080 to yeah, us being kind of responsible for a lot 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.480 of basic needs of everyone on the field, and also 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:52.400 us monitoring, like informing journalists because like the government would 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.320 be like, oh, no, there's nobody there on the field 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.200 right now, and then we would just like five minutes, 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.560 I'd be like no one. 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:02.960 Yeah. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.920 So we also quite quickly like became a big part 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.760 of the whole political debate where like the government was 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.800 saying one thing and we were saying another, and like 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.359 they were all all the time trying to pretend that 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.399 nothing was wrong and everything was fine. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.960 And yeah, yeah, I think it's it's such a common 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.520 it's sadly a common experience, right. It's being like a 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.200 the government is lying to you, Like you can see 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.399 this with your eyes, so that you're being lied to, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.800 and be like they're just going to leave these people 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.000 if we don't do something, no one will. Something that 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.960 we've had here. We see it, as you say, every 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.639 border in Europe more or less, right, Like it's just 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.239 a consequence of the way that like neoliberal capitalism has 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.959 decided to deal with migration, which is to make to 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.359 be as cruel as possible and to make it as 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.600 hard as possible for people. I wonder, like you've been 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.080 organizing there, at at least in this place for like 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.600 a year. I think I I want this to be 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.199 instructive for people, because like we've been organizing here too, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.680 and we've learned a lot. Are there things that you've 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.760 learned that you think other people could take from the 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.000 organizing or or like and make you you also are 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.439 part of organizing in your area. If either of you 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.240 have things that you've learned about, specifically organizing to help migrants, 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:21.960 I'd love to hear them. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.080 Oh so many things. I'm probably gonna forget some of 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.600 the things I've learned. Well. I think one thing that 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.560 I've learned, and that I've learned over and over and 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.840 over again, is that if you start doing something, you 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.760 will find people who will join. And I think that's 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.159 one of the scary things when you see a gigantic problem, 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:41.919 and even if you know a concrete thing that you 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.720 can do about it, it's still, Yeah, there is a 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:46.600 lot of things that you cannot do as a single 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.240 human being. But I found this true in many countries 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.879 across the world, that if you just start and you 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:58.600 say that you're doing it, people will actually join. And 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.280 I found that as specially like painful in their apple 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.600 that we were on this field and there had been 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.320 so much media attention and there was nobody there, like 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.360 everyone was speaking about it and no one was doing anything, 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.040 and it was kind of depressing to witness that and 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.800 to feel that nobody It felt like nobody cared, right, 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.480 But as soon as we just started with this small thing, 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.520 like okay, you can donate to groceries, you can come 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.960 help cook, you can come help do the dishes, like 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.080 concrete things that you can do. Yeah, we were like 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.280 I think we got like a thousand people who wanted 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.720 to volunteer with us, which was like way too much. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:37.560 We never got back to all of them because it 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:42.199 was just insane. We did not need thousand people to 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.760 cook food for two hundred people, so like, yeah, but 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.800 we just started, and I think, yeah, I think that 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.159 was really helpful, or I think that can be very 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.520 helpful if you're thinking about doing something like start small, 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.719 but don't be afraid that it will not kind of 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.439 grow because people will join and people will make it 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:09.280 into something bigger. Also a great lesson that I learned, Well, 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.639 it's very basic and understandable actually, but like try to 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:17.160 make Yeah, my experience is usually with like a mass distributions, 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.280 so you have hundreds of people, you have food or 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.560 blankets or whatever something that people really need, and it's 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.679 like so important to really plan the distribution well and 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.880 to really inform and discuss with people because that's one 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.560 thing that also happened in their Apple that at some 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.199 point people were just dumping shit on the field and 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.480 they were actually causing fights and causing tensions between people 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.280 because you cannot you can't show with five sleeping bags 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.600 when hundreds of people are in desperate need of a 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.040 sleeping back. You know, like that's kind of inhumane. And 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.680 I get that people have good intentions, and I get 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.280 that it could potentially mean that five people are less cold, 0:20:56.080 --> 0:21:00.119 but like, yeah, some sort of shelter is a basic necessity, 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:01.840 so you cannot give that to a few and not 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.560 to others. So yeah, I think like, like the first 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.120 time we did the distribution into Apple, I was kind 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.040 of scared because people were spreading like there was a 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.320 lot of rumor about like, oh, it's so violent and 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.679 these people are like blah blah blah, and and of 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:20.800 course I kind of didn't believe it because I worked 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:22.679 with migrants for a long time and I know that 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.679 they're human being. You know, they're not so like shockingly 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.439 different than but I've also learned that you need to be. 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.920 They did not learn at all to trust anyone there, 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.920 because like people were lying to them. People were telling 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:39.760 them they would get shelter in the night, but they 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.119 would not. People would say that they would see a 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:43.920 doctor and they would not get to see a doctor. 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.480 So like the I think it's really important if you 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.879 want to help people that you take them seriously and 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.760 that you build up some trust. So for example, we 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.439 went the first time, we cooked so much food. We 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.760 were like, it's we cannot make it run out, you know, 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.240 like we want everyone to get as much as say 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.800