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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. Welcome back to deep Cover. I'm

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Speaker 1: in your feed today with an update about a story

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Speaker 1: that we covered last summer. You might remember it. My

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Speaker 1: producer Amy Gains McQuaid and I did a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into the world of George Santos, a former Republican congressman

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Speaker 1: from New York who pled guilty to wire fraud and

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Speaker 1: identity theft. I called up Amy because well, there's been

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Speaker 1: quite a development in the last week. Hey, Amy, Hey Jake.

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Speaker 2: So I'll just cut you it the news we're here

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Speaker 2: to talk about. On Friday, President Trump commuted Georgeantos's sentence,

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Speaker 2: sending shockwaves through the political world.

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Speaker 1: George Santos is the gift that keeps on giving.

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Speaker 2: I did not think we'd be here so many months

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Speaker 2: after releasing this series talking about this, but here we are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So just talk us through this. How did we

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Speaker 1: get to this point?

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Speaker 2: So, if you remember, Santos pled guilty to two charges,

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Speaker 2: wire fraud and aggravated identity theft. That was last summer,

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Speaker 2: August twenty twenty four. I was actually in the courtroom

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Speaker 2: for that plea hearing, and at the time Santos told

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Speaker 2: the judge you know, I accept full responsibility for my actions.

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Speaker 3: They set his sentencing.

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Speaker 2: For April, and at that time he was actually sentenced

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Speaker 2: to eighty seven months, a little over seven years. He

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Speaker 2: was always going to face at least two years because

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Speaker 2: of the identity theft charge that he pled to that

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Speaker 2: carries a two year minimum. His lawyers had asked the

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Speaker 2: judge if he could be sentenced to the minimum that

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Speaker 2: two years, but the judge at sentencing didn't agree with

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Speaker 2: that and felt that Santos deserved a sentence on the

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Speaker 2: higher end of the guideline. So actually the guideline said

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Speaker 2: seventy five to eighty seven, and the judge ultimately.

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Speaker 3: Handed down the maximum.

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Speaker 2: He reported to prison in July, and then three months

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Speaker 2: later he's released.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I know, like I heard this on Sunday

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Speaker 1: for Saul, I immediately thought of you. I was like,

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Speaker 1: what is Amy thinking. I mean, to me, it felt

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Speaker 1: like a bombshell. They came out of nowhere. But I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering the people that you spoke with who are close

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Speaker 1: to the story, were they surprised by this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard from a lot of folks that we

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Speaker 2: talked to for the original series, and I think across

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Speaker 2: the board, there was a lot of shock and surprise.

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Speaker 2: I called up Kathy Soref, who, if you remember, was

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Speaker 2: one of George Santos's donors.

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Speaker 4: The only thing I can say is he was so

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Speaker 4: is far too long for what he did. In my opinion,

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Speaker 4: Were you expecting this to happen? No, it was a

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Speaker 4: complete shock. You know, I cried. I haven't been thinking

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Speaker 4: about it, but it was like, what, you know, I

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Speaker 4: guess people think that Trump is vengeful. I don't think

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Speaker 4: he is vengeful. I think he wants to hold people accountable,

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Speaker 4: and I think he is actually you know, has a

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Speaker 4: very soft and compassionate side to him. And I think

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Speaker 4: he thought that George. I don't. I could be completely

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Speaker 4: wrong about this. I'm trying interprojecting what President Trump was thinking.

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Speaker 4: But why are we going to finance? I mean, how

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Speaker 4: much does it cost to keep a prisoner in prison

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Speaker 4: for a year? And do we want to spend that

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Speaker 4: on George.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to hear like Kathy's basically like a prison

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Speaker 1: reform advocate. Did you have any sense that that was

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Speaker 1: like part of her deal?

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Speaker 2: Kathy sa I wouldn't characterized as a prison reform advocate.

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Speaker 2: In particular, Kathy was very careful with me to draw

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Speaker 2: a distinction between violent and nonviolent offenders. I think that

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Speaker 2: she has a much harder line stance when it comes

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Speaker 2: to violent offenders, and in this case, she doesn't think

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Speaker 2: that George Santos is a real risk to the community

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Speaker 2: non violent criminals.

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Speaker 4: You know, humiliation is a pretty potent punishment.

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Speaker 5: So do you think that three months was an adequate

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Speaker 5: sentence for what he pled to?

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Speaker 4: I think that the time of it is not as

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Speaker 4: significant as the experience that he probably had. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, that's one reason why people don't want to

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Speaker 4: be in jail. They get there and it's harsh.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions about Kathy, but I

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Speaker 1: wonder if it's actually helpful to just take a step

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Speaker 1: back here. President Trump, what is he said about why

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Speaker 1: he commuted Santos's sentence.

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Speaker 2: So when the news broke it was onwhere Else Truth

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Speaker 2: Social Friday night, President Trump had posted quote, George Santos

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Speaker 2: was somewhat of a rogue. That's in quotes, But there

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Speaker 2: are many rogues throughout our country that aren't forced to

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Speaker 2: serve seven years in prison. So you can see they're

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Speaker 2: the president kind of indicating he didn't necessarily agree with

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Speaker 2: the sentence that had been handed down. He had also

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Speaker 2: said at least Santos had the courage, conviction and intelligence

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Speaker 2: to always vote Republican.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Like, why is he calling out

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Speaker 1: that Santos always voted Republican. I feel like with President Trump,

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Speaker 1: there's often like a subtext. Do you have a sense

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Speaker 1: of what the subtext is there?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think the subtext in this case is pretty It's

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Speaker 2: a neon sign, It's George Santos has been a vocal,

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Speaker 2: consistent supporter of President Trump.

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Speaker 6: Early on, I had been waiting for this to happen.

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Speaker 6: I think a lot of people had been. Santos himself

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Speaker 6: had been kind of begging Trump for connotation apart in

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Speaker 6: just kind of any relief at all, and he'd been

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Speaker 6: a big support of Trump for a long time. So

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Speaker 6: this wasn't surprising.

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Speaker 2: When I heard the news, I gave a call to

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Speaker 2: Mark Gasanov. He's the author of The Fabulous, who we

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Speaker 2: spoke to for the original series. His book is a

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Speaker 2: deeply reported biography of Santos.

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Speaker 6: Trump had been pardoning or commuting a lot of people's sentences,

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Speaker 6: so this wouldn't have been the craziest thing in the world.

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Speaker 6: So I and a lot of people had been waiting

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Speaker 6: for it to happen. But the months dragged on and

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Speaker 6: nothing did. So kind of assumes that maybe Santos was

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Speaker 6: going to stay in prison for at least a long time,

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Speaker 6: a longer time than he spent. But you know, as

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Speaker 6: with everything with Santos, it's your surprise, but nothing, nothing

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Speaker 6: can shock you.

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Speaker 5: I want to impact that a bit. You had almost

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Speaker 5: been expecting this.

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Speaker 6: It sounds like, why is that. Well, Santos had been

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Speaker 6: a big Trump supporter and booster for years, I mean

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Speaker 6: at least since twenty fifteen, and it was one of

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Speaker 6: the fews things that he was totally just kind of

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Speaker 6: unchangeable about. Right. He would go to rallies, he would

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Speaker 6: boost him on social media. He actually spoke on January fifth,

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty one, right before the January sixth Capitol riot.

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Speaker 6: He continued sort of boosting Trump even after, you know,

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Speaker 6: his fall from grace. He showed up at Trump's New

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Speaker 6: Hampshire victory party, and then once he actually went to prison,

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Speaker 6: he kept writing basically kind of op eds for a

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Speaker 6: small newspaper on long Island, and in those op eds

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Speaker 6: he was sort of bagging Trump for something, to let

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Speaker 6: him out, help him out in some ways. So he

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Speaker 6: kind of kept it up, and he'd been a sort

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Speaker 6: of loyal Trump soldier in a way that you know,

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Speaker 6: others haven't been, So you know, it was not so surprising,

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Speaker 6: I guess to see Trump react to that, to that

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Speaker 6: sort of constant flattery and approval.

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Speaker 1: That Mark is like, I'm only surprised it didn't happen sooner,

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Speaker 1: and Kathy's like, I'm surprised it happened at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that Marx beide is politics. And

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Speaker 2: if you're paying attention, you've noticed that this is not

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Speaker 2: the first act of clemency that has happened under the

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Speaker 2: new Trump administration.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying new, but it's been less than a year.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 2: In that time, President Trump has pardoned more than sixteen

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Speaker 2: hundred people, which is pretty remarkable, unprecedented for this early

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Speaker 2: in the presidential term. You know, fifteen hundred of those

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Speaker 2: were people who were involved in the events of January sixth.

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Speaker 2: So he's also commuted many sentences, and we should talk

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Speaker 2: about that a little bit, because a pardon is different

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Speaker 2: than a commutation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was a commutation, right.

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Speaker 3: This was a commutation, not a pardon.

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Speaker 1: So what is that like in plainspeak, what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Pardon is a full It basically wipes your slate clean.

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Speaker 2: The crime is forgiven. A commutation just means we're wrapping

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Speaker 2: up your time spent in incarceration. So George Santos was

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Speaker 2: released from prison late Friday night after this commutation was announced.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't change the fact that he was still charged

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Speaker 2: with these crimes. He still pled guilty to these crimes,

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Speaker 2: and he still served time for these crimes, and that

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Speaker 2: will follow him for the rest of his life. This

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Speaker 2: is something that actually Kathy Sorif stressed to me when

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Speaker 2: I talked to her.

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Speaker 5: He wasn't pardoned.

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Speaker 4: His sentence was commuted. So he will have to live

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Speaker 4: with the dishonor that he caused himself. That will not

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Speaker 4: go away, and hopefully he will find some way to

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Speaker 4: redeem himself by good work.

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Speaker 1: Any sense for why President Trump would have opted to

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Speaker 1: commute his sentence rather than just give him a pardon.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that would have Maybe that would have upset the

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Speaker 1: party in some way that they could It almost feels

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Speaker 1: like it could be a compromise.

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Speaker 2: Well, and this was really the question that I had

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Speaker 2: for Kathy what we're talking about here, because Kathy sores

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Speaker 2: she is a Republican and she is a big backer

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Speaker 2: of President Trump.

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Speaker 5: I know you to be a you know, a vocal

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Speaker 5: supporter of President Trump, but also someone who has no

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Speaker 5: love lost.

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Speaker 6: For George Santos.

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Speaker 5: So I'm just curious how you square those two things

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Speaker 5: in a moment like this.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't really know. I don't know what Trump

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Speaker 4: was thinking. I don't I don't know other than just

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Speaker 4: saying that he thought the long prison sentence was unfair

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Speaker 4: and why are we He's not a danger to society.

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Speaker 4: His humiliation will carry with him for a long time,

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Speaker 4: and that is quite a punishment. I didn't understand what

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Speaker 4: benefit it would be. Certainly it's not a political benefit

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Speaker 4: for Trump to pardon George Santos. George Santos isn't going

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Speaker 4: to do a good darn thing for Trump, and by

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Speaker 4: doing it, actually I thought it might have been harmful.

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Speaker 4: So I didn't understand the source other than Trump thinking

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Speaker 4: it just not fair that he had been sentenced really

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Speaker 4: too harshly.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little skeptical about I mean, like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the question is a fair one, like why would he

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Speaker 1: do this? I'm somewhat dubious this is just done out

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Speaker 1: of a sense of justice. I think that that doesn't

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Speaker 1: ring true to me. I could think of a few

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Speaker 1: reasons why this would be good for him to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it reinforces the idea that if you're loyal

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Speaker 1: to me, I will look out for you down the road.

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Speaker 1: It's another day where he's in charge of the news cycle.

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Speaker 1: It also casts further doubt on a justice system that

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Speaker 1: he's run into before. But I always think that, like

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is a really smart strategist about the way

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Speaker 1: he does things. I don't think he does things just

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Speaker 1: He may do things on a whim, but it's following

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Speaker 1: an instinct. And I'm just I'm just wondering what you

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Speaker 1: think his strategy was here or why he did this.

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Speaker 1: Is it just like a Is this just thank you

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Speaker 1: for being loyal and if you're loyal to me, no

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Speaker 1: matter what you've done, you get redeemed Or do you

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Speaker 1: think there's more to it than that.

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Speaker 2: I think that there's an argument to be made that

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Speaker 2: Santos's loyalty is a huge factor in why we're talking

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Speaker 2: right now and why Santos has been released. I think

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Speaker 2: the other factor that we have to discuss is that

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Speaker 2: he was held in solitary confinement, and from what we know,

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Speaker 2: it seems like that's something that caught the president's attention.

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Speaker 2: You heard Mark reference earlier. George Santos has been writing

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Speaker 2: this sort of regular column for a newspaper on Long

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Speaker 2: Island called The Soushore Press.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: His most recent column came out just about a week ago,

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Speaker 2: and he seems to be speaking to the president almost directly.

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Speaker 2: He says, quote, I renew my plea to President Trump.

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Speaker 2: Intervene helped me escape this daily torment and let me

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Speaker 2: return to my family. So this really like heartfelt plea

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Speaker 2: for release.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: He he talks about his experience in solitary confinement.

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Speaker 1: Remind us why is he in solitary confinement?

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Speaker 2: George Santos found himself in solitary confinement. From the reporting

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Speaker 2: that's out there, it seems he was not placed in

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Speaker 2: solitary for any disciplinary reasons. He was placed in solitary

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Speaker 2: because of an actual threat to his life. Then, so

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Speaker 2: sometimes they might segregate an inmate for their own safety,

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Speaker 2: but what George Santos maintains is that the conditions that

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Speaker 2: he was held in were far from humane. He asked

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Speaker 2: for his inhaler, and it took him hours, if not days,

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Speaker 2: to receive it. He had panic attacks. So, I mean,

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Speaker 2: solitary confinement is a real thing that this country has

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Speaker 2: to grapple with. There are over forty thousand estimated inmates

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Speaker 2: being held in solitary at any given time in this country.

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Speaker 2: It is considered a form of torture according to you

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Speaker 2: and guidelines, and you know, the psychological effects. You know,

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Speaker 2: the actual conditions you're held in are one thing, but

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Speaker 2: kind of what you carry with you after you leave

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Speaker 2: is an entirely different conversation. This was clearly on the

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Speaker 2: president's radar, right, So in that initial truth Social post,

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Speaker 2: he called it out explicitly saying, quote, George has been

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Speaker 2: in solitary confinement for long stretches of time and by

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Speaker 2: all accounts, has been horribly mistreated. Therefore, I just signed

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Speaker 2: a commutation releasing him from prison.

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Speaker 3: Good luck, George, have a great life.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting because you know, if you imagine

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Speaker 1: a world where George Santos was only sentenced to three

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Speaker 1: months and he served his time and get out today,

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Speaker 1: versus a storyline where George Santos had been sentenced to

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Speaker 1: seven years was being held in solitary confinement and Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump gives him this commutation and tells him good luck.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it feels like for a man who likes

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Speaker 1: dramatic storylines, it feels like a much more dramatic storyline. Plus,

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Speaker 1: you've been kind of what you call it communtation, call

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Speaker 1: it pardon. You've been blessed by President Trump, which is

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Speaker 1: very meaningful in many circles in this country.

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Speaker 6: Oh.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I will say it's interesting. The story of George

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Speaker 2: Santos remains really fascinating to me in its many evolutions,

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Speaker 2: because I think, you know, it's easy to dismiss him.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's a con artist, and why are we

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Speaker 2: even still talking about this guy? But I think throughout

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Speaker 2: this saga, you know, George Santos has been a really

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Speaker 2: interesting window into the realities of the systems of the

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Speaker 2: criminal legal system. There are millions of people who interact

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Speaker 2: with our court system and our prison system every day,

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Speaker 2: but they are not famous, they do not have names

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Speaker 2: that you recognize. But here we are talking about solitary confinement,

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Speaker 2: talking about mandatory minimums, talking about what it means to

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Speaker 2: have a felony on your record because it's in the

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Speaker 2: news because of George Santos.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Have we heard from George since

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Speaker 1: he's been released?

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Speaker 7: So?

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Speaker 2: George Santos posted on Saturday, the day after he was released, saying, quote,

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Speaker 2: yesterday I was given something I never thought i'd have again,

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Speaker 2: a true second chance at life, a chance to grow,

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Speaker 2: to change, and to walk a better path. He goes

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Speaker 2: on to say, my goal now is to turn my

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Speaker 2: past into something meaningful, to help create a justice system

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Speaker 2: that truly believes in rehabilitation and second chances. Yes, I

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Speaker 2: am back, but I am back as a new man,

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Speaker 2: ready to work and do good.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's what's so interesting about this to me

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Speaker 1: is Sando's as many things, dumb is clearly not one

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Speaker 1: of them. Whether he's sincere or there's a hustle here

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Speaker 1: remains to be seen. But I think that what he

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Speaker 1: does is he's picking up He's using something that's real,

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Speaker 1: which is his own experience. He's using something that's real,

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Speaker 1: which is solitary confinement. It's like an organic storyline. It's

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Speaker 1: just the given who this guy is. It's damn hard

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Speaker 1: to take anything he says at face value. Let me

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Speaker 1: ask you this because this is what I'm also wondering about,

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Speaker 1: is restitution, right, So what about that? Like, is he

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Speaker 1: still on the hook for that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question.

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Speaker 2: So over the weekend, one of the US Parton attorneys

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Speaker 2: who handled the commutation actually tweeted out what appears to

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Speaker 2: be the actual document that Trump signed, and it's in

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Speaker 2: black and white, pretty clear language that this is an

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Speaker 2: immediate commutation of his entire sentence time served with no

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Speaker 2: further fines, restitution, probation, supervis release, etc.

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Speaker 3: Etca.

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Speaker 2: So it seems on paper he is not on the

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Speaker 2: hook for this. Santos appeared on CNN over the weekend,

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Speaker 2: interviewed by Dana Bash and she actually asked him this

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Speaker 2: exact question.

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Speaker 7: You were ordered to by the court to pay three

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Speaker 7: hundred and seventy thousand dollars in restitution to the people

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Speaker 7: you defrauded. Will you still pay that back?

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Speaker 8: Well, if you really say the people, I just want

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Speaker 8: to be clear with your audience so that we're not

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Speaker 8: misleading them. Eighty five percent of that really goes into

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Speaker 8: the investment made into my campaign for polling and TV

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Speaker 8: ads and literature by the National Republican Congressional Committee. The

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Speaker 8: investment was made to win a race. I won that race.

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Speaker 8: There was no fraud there. This is a case we

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Speaker 8: argued with the prosecution, but they needed to inflate the

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Speaker 8: numbers in order to make it a more appealing case

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Speaker 8: for them in federal court instead of just going after

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Speaker 8: the mishandling of finances, which, by the way, most members

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Speaker 8: of Congress currently who are still serving in both parties,

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Speaker 8: whoever have had issues with FEC filings, they pay fines.

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Speaker 8: Nobody actually goes to prison. So it's inequitable in its nature.

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Speaker 7: Well, this is about a fine, and this is about

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Speaker 7: paying money back. And whether you describe them as victims

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Speaker 7: or just donors to the NRCC, what the court said

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Speaker 7: is that they should get their money back. Will you

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Speaker 7: work to try.

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Speaker 3: To do that?

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Speaker 8: Well, look, I can do my best to do whatever

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Speaker 8: the law requires of me, So I don't know what

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Speaker 8: that is. I've been out of prison for two days.

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Speaker 8: I agree to come here to speak with you candidly

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Speaker 8: and openly, and not to offuscate. If it's required of

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Speaker 8: me by the law. Yes, if it's not, then no,

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Speaker 8: I will do whatever the law it requires.

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Speaker 6: Me to do.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting he's not really answering the question. He's saying, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll do it the law requires of me. But as

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Speaker 1: we understand that the law is saying that he doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to pay the money back, I would almost respect

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Speaker 1: him more if he's like, hey, President Trump, SAI didn't

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Speaker 1: have to pay it back. Why would I pay it back?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like, but no, it has to be well,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't really taking from people. I was taking from

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Speaker 1: you know, these funds as if that money was what

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Speaker 1: printed by the Republican National Party, like those were the

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Speaker 1: donor's money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody's money that he took. Look, this is another

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Speaker 2: example of Santos being well versed in political spin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I wonder, I mean, do you have a

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Speaker 1: sense for where you think? I mean, apparently he's going

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Speaker 1: to become an outspoken voice for prison reform. Besides that,

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Speaker 1: do you have a sense for where we might see

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Speaker 1: him next?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've also been thinking about that, and I asked

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Speaker 2: Mark Gasano, the journalist who has looked to Santos and

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Speaker 2: his life more than anyone else, Really this exact question.

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Speaker 5: I guess the question now is what happens next with

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Speaker 5: a guy like this.

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Speaker 6: That's sort of the open question with Santos, and sort

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Speaker 6: of always has been. People always wonder was he going

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Speaker 6: to change? Is this kind of the end with him?

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Speaker 6: Or is he just going to move to another scam?

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Speaker 6: Who knows? With him? He sort of said different things

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Speaker 6: at different times that he is repentance that he isn't.

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Speaker 6: I'll note though, that he did reactivate his cameo account,

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Speaker 6: so there's that he's at least trying that again. I

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Speaker 6: definitely don't think we've heard the last of him.

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Speaker 1: The cameo account is the one where he gives like

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Speaker 1: the birthday wishes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you could pay George Santos. I'm curious, Actually, I'll

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Speaker 2: look how much? How much the going rate is right now?

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Speaker 2: But you could pay him to record a birthday message?

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Speaker 1: Or Yeah, what is what is the going rate?

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Speaker 2: Book a personal video? One fifty plus? Oh it's a

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Speaker 2: flash sale.

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Speaker 3: One that's half off right now.

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Speaker 2: We're catching it on a on.

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Speaker 3: A flash sail.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah, we're not seeing to lest this guy.

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Speaker 1: My spidy sense tells me that in the not too

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Speaker 1: distant future will be back because George Santaus will have

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Speaker 1: once again found his way back into the headlines. This

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Speaker 1: episode was produced by Amy Gains McQuaid and Isaac Carter.

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Speaker 1: It was edited by Karen Chakerjee. Our executive producer is

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Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, mastering by Jake Gorsky. Original scoring and our

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Speaker 1: theme were composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Morgan Ratner,

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Speaker 1: Owen Miller, and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Halpern.